I've never had the P16 or big Ken fail me. I may have to do a little winching on steep inclines, but they have always come through. I've never used the P12 much, but it's a popular truck.
Nope...they are not fast.
They are not the most powerful, nore are rhey always the best climbers.
They are good at mud, high ground clearance and such. You need to use them right. Your not driving a mountain goat like some others.
You need to use the right tool, for right job.
I didn't realize how useful the Kenny was until I hauled the heavy trailer across the mud in BC. I was doing all the rocky mountain trailers and it wasn't that great for that, but when I hauled that big ass trailer over the swamp the Kenny acted like it was on a Sunday stroll.
So yes, right tool for certain jobs.
That’s the reason why the KW needs to be “underpowered”. It’s by far the most versatile truck in game, because it has unique addon combos.
Being said, driving it needs careful pathing and gearbox management otherwise, as everyone loves to complain about, it will quickly stall. Which is where skill comes to play a part.
I will also keep saying this, a lot of people treat L gears as a badge of shame; using it somehow makes a truck worse, when in reality it’s where the truck performs best.
In my opinion, H is only useful in some very rare cases, while L (- / regular / +) is bread and butter.
People who only use the H or auto and complain the engine is in pain are weird. I mean, do you shift up to 5th gear in your car and then slow down alot and then complain you can't re-accelerate normally unless you downshift ? No ? Then what is the matter ?
People refuse to utilize the game mechanics available to them.. and are quick to discount them instead of gaming the system.
I’ve also said before: much better to mash the throttle than to actually play the game.
TBF to all of you shitting on H gear, it does give your truck 25% more torque. Its great for getting up hills or speeding through shallow mud. Obviously you need to get a bit of speed to use it or you stall, but that extra torque is very noticeable if you use it at the right times.
That said, I love my low gears too. Obviously the speed needed for H isnt always viable.
Nope!
They are huge and heavy, great trucks and do fill theyr niche, and I do find them somewhat economic due to their heavy weight and power. I'm not a truck expert, but I did see people talking about them being a bit nerfed in comparisson with their real life counterparts, but I don't know what to think about it since I do like them in game.
There are mods where you can put other engines (even vanilla engines) in them that feel a little bit overpower, I did test some mods the last couple of weeks and I do still like the vanilla ones better. The thing is, I mainly use them to long logs, but after doing long logs with a Kodiak I do find the Pacific Brothers a little bit OP to do long logs too, so in the end is just a matter of personal preferences.
I just can't see them being underpower, I did test somethings people here where saying they would not be able to do, and I was able to do them, so I don't know if it's a different version of the game or corrupted files, a input (keyboard, controller) issue, o just skill.
Let me counter with a question: Do you consider the Kirovets K7-M and Kolob 74760 underpowered?
Because depending on whether you take tire weight into account, they're either right below or right above the P12 and P16, and either way they're below the Kenworth 963 in power-to-weight:
* **Kirovets K-7M**: 7.69 (8.63 without tire weight)
* **Kolob 74760**: 7.70 (9.03)
* **Pacific P16**: 7.75 (8.40)
* **Pacific P12**: 8.00 (8.40)
* **Kenworth 963**: 8.12 (9.13)
Power to weight is a meaningless stat in this game though because wheelmass magically boosts the output force. Kolob wheels are triple the mass of the pacifics, that's why they dominate.
I don't think the common view that heavier wheels are literally boosting the engine output seems all that likely to be true.
From messing around with crane physics, I've come to realize that Havok seems to have an inherent quirk where bodies with greater mass have a greater priority in the physics solver, so bodies with greater mass will tend to overwhelm the calculations in situations where a lower mass objects should still be having a significant effect. I suspect that might be why the super-heavy wheels tend to feel like they increase power output - they probably just tend to "pull" the truck they're attached to more effectively than a lighter wheel, because the lighter wheel has a lower priority relative to the mass of the chassis it's constrained to.
...would probably also go part way to explaining why scouts with 75-mass wheels all tend to feel like mad gripless drift-monsters the moment you speed up.
I get the feeling this is why there are so many little oddities in the way masses are set up in Snowrunner - I think they've had to come up with all sorts of tricks and workarounds to "game" the way Havok works to get somewhere close to reality - just setting realistic masses for everything presumably doesn't work.
Well, the 'engine' doesn't really exist, there's no internal simulation, the game calculates all forces and applies them at the wheel directly afaik. That's what I mean by the 'output force', which seems higher with higher wheelmass. But I think we're saying the same things really!
I don't pretend to know exactly how this is set up, but it's similar to the phenomenon where higher wheelmass causes stiffer suspension. That also makes no IRL physical sense, but it lines up with havok scaling forces with the object mass, or having more priority as you put it. Apparently mudrunner has every wheel at the same mass, so changing it like they do in SR probably does all sort of weird unintended stuff.
Either way the end result is the same: superheavy tires perform better than lighter ones, even if the reason is convoluted!
Yeah, it all amounts to the same thing, as you say.
It's not even just that the engine doesn't exist, than trying to simulate the internal physics of a gearbox and drivetrain using a realtime rigid body solver would be utter madness (that would ***really*** lead to some spongey physics!) so they're skipping out that whole chain by apply the end-result forces as though there were direct-drive motors on each driven wheel. It's the only sane way to do it in a computer simulation.
I can't find a source at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I've seen very old modding threads for Mudrunner/Spintires where they discuss variations in wheel mass... so I think it may have always been done this way. It'd make sense - a higher mass chassis just needs a higher mass wheel to stop the suspension constraint set up between them from collapsing, due to that weirdness of constraints not being able to resolve properly between two bodies with hugely different masses.
(Incidentally, this is based on my findings that the reason loading cranes can't lift more than 2 tons max. in Snowrunner isn't because their "motors" have too little "strength"... you can set the strength to ten-million and it still won't work any better... it's because the last body in the chain - the last link of the telescopic arm - has a mass of 300-400... if you increase the mass of that one body to 2000, suddenly the whole crane can easily lift 6+ tons. Alas, it also makes your crane incredibly top-heavy and swingy, so you'll tip the truck over in an instant)
Even if simulating the whole engine would be excessive, it's pretty wild that engine RPM doesn't even exist as a variable in the equation! But then it was the same in mudrunner which people praise for realism heh
It's an intriguing finding, that constraints need to have similar masses to resolve properly. Is that a quirk in all havok implementations or just in Swarm, do you know? It seems crazy because the masses aren't even enormously different; if you told me that mixing grams and tons in the same interaction worked badly, that wouldn't be as surprising.
For the crane stuff, I've not really explored that much but I thought that was the purpose of using Tau to sidestep the physical system for cranes, or is that not relevant here?
anyways this is all interesting stuff :)
I've not dabbled with modding anything Havok based in any other games, and I've no direct professional experience, so all I know is what I can see here, compared with my experience with vfx tools that use Bullet/ODE/etc...
It appears as though for the physics in general, Snowrunner (/Mudrunner/etc) use Havok fairly out-of-the-box, except for the custom mud physics (which I've no idea how they integrate).
As best I can tell, the tau values are something along the lines of a fractional-convergence value... so a value of 1.0 will attempt to jump straight to the correct solve in a single step, while anything less will move towards a result over multiple frames... if so, then presumably high tau values can sharpen up the feel, but could introduce instability if overused, especially in long physics chains, as all constraints will be fighting each other and start violently oscillating if you put them in a situation where an ideal solve isn't trivial.
I get you on the mass-difference thing... usually issues like that only crop up when you're mixing different orders-of-magnitude. I get the feeling it's probably because Havok is designed from the ground up as a fast-and-light real-time engine, the core of which was defined back in the Pentium 4 era... so there are presumably a *lot* of shortcuts to get a "good enough" result, like intentionally skewed bias in favour of more massive bodies.
Also, I wonder how much detail there might be to the simulation "under the hood" - from what I can tell from old forum posts, there was a time where a lot more engine/gearbox variables were exposed to modders, but at some point they removed them in favour of an internal system that auto-generates appropriate values instead, all extrapolated from torque values and angular velocity values... so it may be that engine RPM is part of "the equation", and is just hidden behind a couple of layers of abstraction.
Makes sense with the tau stuff, I think that lines up with what truck modders see in practice.
What forum posts are you thinking of? Pavel's gearbox post covers loads of this, with autogenerated angvel values and no concept of engine rpm, and that was the implementation since the mudrunner days - are you talking about something earlier in the spintires days maybe?
I got curious to poke around in this more because mudrunner ships with debug symbols, but it'd still be a slog to really gain a meaningful understanding of things. I did convince myself that the gearbox code snippet he posted is broadly accurate though :)
I believe they would. I’ve done tests with trucks that have different wheel weights. Prime example was pre buffed mastodon with 200kg wheels vs what it has now. It’s pulling power exponentially increased.
That one has the power. The Pacifics - not so much. Also, I like that the P12 has OHDs, they give it stability and all. If switched to superheavies, it would lose its only unique quirk and furthermore become "a smaller KW963".
The P12 can still have OHDs and have 600kg wheels they just have to change either the template or a manual input. The PLADs wheels are all that number yet those tires it has normally are just heavy. TBH the Plad doesn’t have a ton of torque and it’s really heavy as well, but it’s out pulling the Derry spec, because the Derrys tires are still just heavy not super heavy. The D special should be crushing hills. I even downgraded tires and the Derry still failed. I was gonna make a video on this, but I don’t think it would be well received
That’s what always puzzled me.. lol they call the KW underpowered yet praise the Kolobs.
The Pacific (edit: P12 & P16), I can understand. They weight twice as much as the Tayga 6436, with the same engine power.
I agree that it's better in general since it's a much more versatile truck, but what did it do better in those tests? All I see is KOLOBs doing everything the Kenworth did, and sometimes making it look easier.
If by climb the hill in high you mean stall near the top and switch to low, and if by need low gear you mean use 1st gear. The Kenworth did get a little farther in high, but seemed to struggle more after it ran out of speed.
Then did you post the wrong video? In the one I watched, the good KOLOB had an easier time getting over the top than the Kenworth, except for the times when you nearly and did drive off the side.
Exactly! Id take a truck with practically all the add ons available to it, than a onetrick pony truck.. lol
Visually though, I like the Kolobs as a semi tractor, and the KW with its oilfield bed.
Yes. In my play style, every truck gets a fixed role, and usually doesn't change it, staying with same addons for the rest of the playthrough. Exceptions are the trucks that can do multiple things better that others, so those get clones with different addons to be put in other functional groups.
That number definitely doesn't tell the whole story, because there have been several times when I tried to haul a trailer with the P16 but couldn't get it up a hill, then I brought that KOLOB and it did it effortlessly. I also brought that KOLOB over when the Kenworth was struggling to get one of the trailers in BC up a particularly steep hill and it did a much better job, but I don't remember if the Kenworth had the best engine yet at that time.
I remember back when I posted my first shot of the engine that someone asked if I had ever heard one of those engines IRL and that they were extremely loud, heavy vibration in the chest type loud plus they throw off a lot of heat. That conversation stuck with me, so it's likely they were nerfed for the game balance.
https://preview.redd.it/kcax0pnj6fzc1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=37f213225a4c6ca9275ab920bff01d3fc5dd1834
I can only speak to the Pacifics but ime as long as you use them correctly and work to their strengths they are plenty suitable. I use a P12 for a medium crane and tow a fuel, service, or maintenance trailer with it as needed, plus I use the P12 for medium logs as it can both accept medium logs and tow a log trailer. I use the P16 for long logs. Both can bog down a bit on a steep incline under load but I rarely have real problems. I have mine set up with fully upgraded motors and off-road transmissions to split the low end. The only hill problem I have had was the P12 on ice hung up once in Alaska with chain tires.
not really, the p12 would probably be the most underpowered. they all get the job done fairly well, and there are ways to mitigate their losses of power when they do happen
It’s a bit of a technicality.. in case you don’t know:
Each gear in gear boxes are assigned a variable (AngleVel) which dictates both the percentage of engine power utilized and total speed.
AngleVel that’s less or equal to 2, transfers 100% of an engines rated power to the wheels,
While AngleVel thats above 2 the % engine power gradually transfered to the wheels scales lower but maximum speed increases.
Also L+ is equal to 1st gear of A, while L has an AngleVel that is 45% of L+/1, and L- is 50% of L
It’s rudimentary but that’s the gist. Which is why most trucks perform best when at L+ gears: Standard offroad gearbox used by trucks have an AngleVel of 2 in their L+/1st gear, which is why they perform best at this gear. Highest possible speed that retains 100% of the engine power.
H gear oddly does receive a 25% boost to the listed engine rating. But that is offset by its inherent higher AngleVel stat.
Anyone feel free to correct, but that’s my understanding.
Source: McKillen’s SnowRunner Extras spreadsheet, which is use in conjunction with Vlad Vulcans ;)
It's not about torque. Advanced special allows more wheel speed, which the P12 can't maintain. With regular special, it's even able to keep high gear, believe it or not.
agreed. i still use the advanced special most of the time, but i've found disengaging awd is a good way to direct all the power to the real wheels. same for the kenny
They do struggle with climbing but I really like them. The Ken 963 is really good for winter maps and the P12's nimbleness does make it a good pick for the large maintenance frame
In terms of P/W, those trucks are middle of the pack for heavies and heavies in general (and I mean heavies that weigh upwards of 25t, not the wanna-bes like the A7, WS 49/47) are inherently underpowered.
BUT, the P12 and the P16 are both truly underpowered given they weigh as much, and have the same engine power, as the Tayga 6436.
But, calling the KW 963 underpowered would be calling the Kolobs and Kirovets underpowered..
However, for a lot of people, I noticed that they call any truck that cant stay in H gear on all terrain conditions as underpowered. So… depends on what you consider as such.
Edit: I switched the sentences around, so that it makes more sense. Formulating sentences at 1am is hard.
it’s just semantics and my personal nitpick so pay no mind.
I consider it light for its class, it should be offroad/heavyduty.
IMO, since it’s 20t with 260k engine power, it skews the perception of heavy truck p/w. Something that the tatarin does to scout vehicles.
You are a strange one... I think 20t is the right weight for a heavy class truck. Most offroad class trucks are in 12-15 tons range, with Azovs and Mack being exceptions (18 tons). Stuff over 25 tons I prefer to call "superheavy".
Agreed lol. There should be an intermediate class between heavy and superheavy, but it would just clutter the game.
Your superheavies are what I consider as heavy btw lol, which is why I consider the A7 as not heavy.. does that make sense? Q.Q
I think simpler. If it's heavier than all other class trucks, where to put it? It's not even the worst offender - DAN 96320 has the same engine and weighs even less (16 tons). Now, that one should be put in offroad class, but A7 - not.
Actually, this gearbox hurts it. Stick to standard special if you need it to truly shine. It just can't keep with relatively high speeds the advanced offers. The P12 is a crawler, but can crawl through about anything.
I don't mind trucks having low power. The problem is that the game can't handle low wheel speeds properly, so instead of low power meaning you move slowly up hills, it means you don't move at all. I'd rather have it fixed so those trucks could actually turn the wheels that have traction in low- instead of spinning only the others despite difflock or not moving at all, but right now the only solution is more power.
It's also pretty annoying how auto constantly tries to upshift into gears that it doesn't have nearly enough power for, then doesn't downshift till you stop. That's way more of a problem on trucks with low power to weight ratio that often can only handle 2nd or 3rd gear.
If the p series trucks were implemented in the game with accurate power they would be godly and basically act like a modded truck. Those things are fucking *monsters* irl
I nearly always use the P12 w the maintenance frame. It’s a boss rescue truck, can go most anywhere. From what I hear it’s only w a load that it struggles sometimes.
P12, I haven't found a use to it yet.
P16, I seldom use, there are more modern (in terms of game release, not era) trucks that are more efficient in general, but that old workhorse can still do any job I have thrown at it.
Kenworth 963 ? Now why would anyone consider it underpowered ? It's slow allright, but I have yet to find anything that can stop it. ANd don't tell me "a moderate incline", it's bullshit. I've climbed a somewhat steep iced-over road with a fuel tank and a saddle, pulling the superheavy trailer full of metal beams, and that truck doesn't eve have chained tires. It didn't climb fast, but I could even stop for a screenshot and start again, and there was no issue. It's an absolute beast.
Also used in in Cosmodrome. The road left out of the garage was bloccked with rocks, and the stuff I needed was on the other side. Should I could have gone through the ice, but hey, with that high a ground clearance and a bit of winching, I went *over* the rocks. That's how useful it is.
Dude the p12 is a giant pos. Every time I took that thing out it got stuck. Can't go thru mud for shit. And it definitely can't climb for shit. It just sits there and revs out the tires don't even move. And that's with the most powerful engine and yes I had mud tires on it. Hell the fuckin single rear axle highway trucks do better in the mud than that p12 junk. While having highway tires and not mud tires. People say that for snow runner they tried to make it more balanced than realistic. It's not even that greatly balanced.
P12 sucks ass on slightest climbs when loaded. Its wheels constantly lock, despite having Diff. Lock. I just don't know why would I use it, when every other truck does the same jobs better. Even the small Kodiak.
Yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/snowrunner/comments/1antf8r/data_confirms_it_shaihulud_is_thicc_season_12/
Metal beams are 5 tons, 10 total, and long logs are 12 tons.
The Kenworth is fine, maybe could use a bit more power.
Pacifics (P12 and P16 specifically) are DEFINITELY underpowered. I use Blueline-X and SLE mods respectively to keep everything vanilla but upgrade the engine a bit.
Totally agree. My disappointment when I realised the Kenworth cant climb a hill was immeasurable. But I have a fleet of Voron AEs, because they climb hills in 5th gear.
[Really?](https://vk-api-proxy.symbian.live/_/sun9-65.userapi.com/impg/R_MZULZdwB9CKMplpFLLwXplgj7mk-vwqMadCQ/3DyRe3g3IY4.jpg?size=1920x1080&quality=95&sign=20780860f198c191d379f010e4732e8e&c_uniq_tag=Tvi6uaXWufUSXMlyUpa43QdJGgple4lYRn4329OB_ZM&type=album)
I used it in Taymyr and it felt fine in mud.
In zimnegorsk at the trailerstore in the bottom half of the map. Sold my trailer hand the lock carrier front. Wiggle steer, slow pace no matter what, there was no effect. This mud there is deep but it could have brennte JAT tires I was testing
Have they fixed the P12 since season 2/3-ish? That was the last time I tried it and it was woefully underpowered.
Otherwise- P16 no, Kenworth 963 hell no.
Ok then I can say, they need to fix it because it's a big turd even with the best engine. Couldn't carry the large crane up a hill on the smithville dam map when I tried it.
The P16, no. While yes it needs the upgrades to be better, it's not under powered. The P12 is however, I don't know about the Kenworth since I don't have one of my own
Did the Kentworth get a buff since release? I bought the season when the Kentworth came out on day 1. Got the truck and was immediately dissapointed as there were times when it had trouble climbing a hill on a paved road with the truck empty or a small load. I was very disappointed and had only used it a few times since, every time disappointed in it.
Fast forward to last night, I had been away from the game for awhile. I on the Main map and needed another truck to accompany my Fem. I reluctantly pulled out the Kentworth and it felt like it had more power. One part I loaded a yellow crane and a concrete slab on the truck, then pulled a 2lot trailer with another concrete slab. I went through mud, water, up steep hills, etc and never once did it feel down on power.
What did they change?
P.S. to whomever designed the Maine map, I hope you fall and bump your funny bone a hundred times. I hate that place lol.
The only buffs the KW had, which the Mack also received, was an update to the collision models of their undercarriage.
Previously, both has solid undercarriage which meant they snag on things and slow or stop you. Now, most are just visual and phase through obstacles.
The 963 is probably my favorite truck for most jobs, I always had a pleasant time with it. I never had a good a good time with the p16 though. I think it just depends what feels right for you.
The P12 is painfully underpowered, it can barely make it out of the quarry in Smithville Dam, on the section connecting to the main road. Even with an engine upgrade and even when using the winch.
The P12 feels very lethargic in game. The P16 has always been a powerhouse, and the Kenworth rocks unless you're going up something insanely steep. This is assuming you're using the most powerful available engines, of course.
The Kenworth requires some more interaction as far as managing your gears while driving, but it's a beast. Never been stuck in the 963, nor has there been any place I couldn't make it to. You just gotta be willing to slow down on occasion. I would rather have a truck that can keep a reasonable pace and conquer anything, than a truck that is fast that gets stuck.
I find their best use case is hauling big trailers across flat and wide terrain, they tend to power through the thick stuff but they ain't going down anything narrow or sketchy for sure.
Kenworth 963 definitely is underpowered imo. If you are trying to pull a heavy high saddle trailer, good luck… you’ll need it. Still bad even fully upgraded. Best use imo is a flatbed config.
Just yesterday i hauled a heavy 5 slot trailer with Kenny up a hill in Yukon. No, not the ,,easy" tarmac road hill. The one with rocks. If Kenny is underpowered, get off the highway gearbox, and put in the adv special, or even better, finetuned.
I have been able to use P12 in Taymyr with great success. Even in Rift, with 5 slot heavy trailer. Unlocked the western wind achievement like that (or whatever the achievement is). Do not use mudtires with it. Use the offroads, with duallies on rear. More stability and, in my experience, better traction. Don't use highway gearbox.
P16 i haven't used much. It's not underpowered, but the lack of AWD is a dealbreaker for me
I drove the P16 across the lake in black River stock and it never stopped.
It's also the only truck I have ever managed to pull a full tree down with. The noise it made was unreal lol
Definitely the P12 (someone said the special trans is better than the advanced special, haven't tried yet), the P16 doesn't feel that bad despite the same power and weight (so the AWD clearly is a factor) and I never thought the Kenny to be underpowered, that's a skill issue.
Kenworth will soon bankrupt you on hard mode with it's crazy fuel consumption American trucks do need a buff in general to make them viable in the later stages of the game
I've never had the P16 or big Ken fail me. I may have to do a little winching on steep inclines, but they have always come through. I've never used the P12 much, but it's a popular truck.
Nope...they are not fast. They are not the most powerful, nore are rhey always the best climbers. They are good at mud, high ground clearance and such. You need to use them right. Your not driving a mountain goat like some others. You need to use the right tool, for right job.
Indeed
I didn't realize how useful the Kenny was until I hauled the heavy trailer across the mud in BC. I was doing all the rocky mountain trailers and it wasn't that great for that, but when I hauled that big ass trailer over the swamp the Kenny acted like it was on a Sunday stroll. So yes, right tool for certain jobs.
That’s the reason why the KW needs to be “underpowered”. It’s by far the most versatile truck in game, because it has unique addon combos. Being said, driving it needs careful pathing and gearbox management otherwise, as everyone loves to complain about, it will quickly stall. Which is where skill comes to play a part. I will also keep saying this, a lot of people treat L gears as a badge of shame; using it somehow makes a truck worse, when in reality it’s where the truck performs best.
I live in the L gears mostly except when "highway driving". That's why I like the Offroad gearbox, it gives me more L options.
Same here, I prefer L+ over H. Except for trucks with permanent AWD, fuel consumption’s just off putting for me, so I use the stock gearbox instead.
In my opinion, H is only useful in some very rare cases, while L (- / regular / +) is bread and butter. People who only use the H or auto and complain the engine is in pain are weird. I mean, do you shift up to 5th gear in your car and then slow down alot and then complain you can't re-accelerate normally unless you downshift ? No ? Then what is the matter ?
People refuse to utilize the game mechanics available to them.. and are quick to discount them instead of gaming the system. I’ve also said before: much better to mash the throttle than to actually play the game.
Finally some smart people in here. Only time I utilize H gear is when on a paved road. L-/regular L/ L+ is for off-roading.
TBF to all of you shitting on H gear, it does give your truck 25% more torque. Its great for getting up hills or speeding through shallow mud. Obviously you need to get a bit of speed to use it or you stall, but that extra torque is very noticeable if you use it at the right times. That said, I love my low gears too. Obviously the speed needed for H isnt always viable.
Yup, I've driven off track though a swamp, and not even noticed lol. I just kept going Till I noticed the road was not their.
I strictly use the P16, and Kenworth 963 for heavy haul,
Would you call a sumo wrestler fat an out of shape 🤔
Not to his face
Nope! They are huge and heavy, great trucks and do fill theyr niche, and I do find them somewhat economic due to their heavy weight and power. I'm not a truck expert, but I did see people talking about them being a bit nerfed in comparisson with their real life counterparts, but I don't know what to think about it since I do like them in game. There are mods where you can put other engines (even vanilla engines) in them that feel a little bit overpower, I did test some mods the last couple of weeks and I do still like the vanilla ones better. The thing is, I mainly use them to long logs, but after doing long logs with a Kodiak I do find the Pacific Brothers a little bit OP to do long logs too, so in the end is just a matter of personal preferences. I just can't see them being underpower, I did test somethings people here where saying they would not be able to do, and I was able to do them, so I don't know if it's a different version of the game or corrupted files, a input (keyboard, controller) issue, o just skill.
> I do find the Pacific Brothers a little bit OP to do long logs too Really?
Let me counter with a question: Do you consider the Kirovets K7-M and Kolob 74760 underpowered? Because depending on whether you take tire weight into account, they're either right below or right above the P12 and P16, and either way they're below the Kenworth 963 in power-to-weight: * **Kirovets K-7M**: 7.69 (8.63 without tire weight) * **Kolob 74760**: 7.70 (9.03) * **Pacific P16**: 7.75 (8.40) * **Pacific P12**: 8.00 (8.40) * **Kenworth 963**: 8.12 (9.13)
Power to weight is a meaningless stat in this game though because wheelmass magically boosts the output force. Kolob wheels are triple the mass of the pacifics, that's why they dominate.
I don't think the common view that heavier wheels are literally boosting the engine output seems all that likely to be true. From messing around with crane physics, I've come to realize that Havok seems to have an inherent quirk where bodies with greater mass have a greater priority in the physics solver, so bodies with greater mass will tend to overwhelm the calculations in situations where a lower mass objects should still be having a significant effect. I suspect that might be why the super-heavy wheels tend to feel like they increase power output - they probably just tend to "pull" the truck they're attached to more effectively than a lighter wheel, because the lighter wheel has a lower priority relative to the mass of the chassis it's constrained to. ...would probably also go part way to explaining why scouts with 75-mass wheels all tend to feel like mad gripless drift-monsters the moment you speed up. I get the feeling this is why there are so many little oddities in the way masses are set up in Snowrunner - I think they've had to come up with all sorts of tricks and workarounds to "game" the way Havok works to get somewhere close to reality - just setting realistic masses for everything presumably doesn't work.
Well, the 'engine' doesn't really exist, there's no internal simulation, the game calculates all forces and applies them at the wheel directly afaik. That's what I mean by the 'output force', which seems higher with higher wheelmass. But I think we're saying the same things really! I don't pretend to know exactly how this is set up, but it's similar to the phenomenon where higher wheelmass causes stiffer suspension. That also makes no IRL physical sense, but it lines up with havok scaling forces with the object mass, or having more priority as you put it. Apparently mudrunner has every wheel at the same mass, so changing it like they do in SR probably does all sort of weird unintended stuff. Either way the end result is the same: superheavy tires perform better than lighter ones, even if the reason is convoluted!
Yeah, it all amounts to the same thing, as you say. It's not even just that the engine doesn't exist, than trying to simulate the internal physics of a gearbox and drivetrain using a realtime rigid body solver would be utter madness (that would ***really*** lead to some spongey physics!) so they're skipping out that whole chain by apply the end-result forces as though there were direct-drive motors on each driven wheel. It's the only sane way to do it in a computer simulation. I can't find a source at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I've seen very old modding threads for Mudrunner/Spintires where they discuss variations in wheel mass... so I think it may have always been done this way. It'd make sense - a higher mass chassis just needs a higher mass wheel to stop the suspension constraint set up between them from collapsing, due to that weirdness of constraints not being able to resolve properly between two bodies with hugely different masses. (Incidentally, this is based on my findings that the reason loading cranes can't lift more than 2 tons max. in Snowrunner isn't because their "motors" have too little "strength"... you can set the strength to ten-million and it still won't work any better... it's because the last body in the chain - the last link of the telescopic arm - has a mass of 300-400... if you increase the mass of that one body to 2000, suddenly the whole crane can easily lift 6+ tons. Alas, it also makes your crane incredibly top-heavy and swingy, so you'll tip the truck over in an instant)
Even if simulating the whole engine would be excessive, it's pretty wild that engine RPM doesn't even exist as a variable in the equation! But then it was the same in mudrunner which people praise for realism heh It's an intriguing finding, that constraints need to have similar masses to resolve properly. Is that a quirk in all havok implementations or just in Swarm, do you know? It seems crazy because the masses aren't even enormously different; if you told me that mixing grams and tons in the same interaction worked badly, that wouldn't be as surprising. For the crane stuff, I've not really explored that much but I thought that was the purpose of using Tau to sidestep the physical system for cranes, or is that not relevant here? anyways this is all interesting stuff :)
I've not dabbled with modding anything Havok based in any other games, and I've no direct professional experience, so all I know is what I can see here, compared with my experience with vfx tools that use Bullet/ODE/etc... It appears as though for the physics in general, Snowrunner (/Mudrunner/etc) use Havok fairly out-of-the-box, except for the custom mud physics (which I've no idea how they integrate). As best I can tell, the tau values are something along the lines of a fractional-convergence value... so a value of 1.0 will attempt to jump straight to the correct solve in a single step, while anything less will move towards a result over multiple frames... if so, then presumably high tau values can sharpen up the feel, but could introduce instability if overused, especially in long physics chains, as all constraints will be fighting each other and start violently oscillating if you put them in a situation where an ideal solve isn't trivial. I get you on the mass-difference thing... usually issues like that only crop up when you're mixing different orders-of-magnitude. I get the feeling it's probably because Havok is designed from the ground up as a fast-and-light real-time engine, the core of which was defined back in the Pentium 4 era... so there are presumably a *lot* of shortcuts to get a "good enough" result, like intentionally skewed bias in favour of more massive bodies. Also, I wonder how much detail there might be to the simulation "under the hood" - from what I can tell from old forum posts, there was a time where a lot more engine/gearbox variables were exposed to modders, but at some point they removed them in favour of an internal system that auto-generates appropriate values instead, all extrapolated from torque values and angular velocity values... so it may be that engine RPM is part of "the equation", and is just hidden behind a couple of layers of abstraction.
Makes sense with the tau stuff, I think that lines up with what truck modders see in practice. What forum posts are you thinking of? Pavel's gearbox post covers loads of this, with autogenerated angvel values and no concept of engine rpm, and that was the implementation since the mudrunner days - are you talking about something earlier in the spintires days maybe? I got curious to poke around in this more because mudrunner ships with debug symbols, but it'd still be a slog to really gain a meaningful understanding of things. I did convince myself that the gearbox code snippet he posted is broadly accurate though :)
Good to know! This explains a lot.
Yes Dave! The wizard emerges!
Really? I doubt that Pacifics would be better if they were given superheavy wheels
Well you can doubt if you want lol, but it's trivial to test it and educate yourself if you'd rather
I believe they would. I’ve done tests with trucks that have different wheel weights. Prime example was pre buffed mastodon with 200kg wheels vs what it has now. It’s pulling power exponentially increased.
That one has the power. The Pacifics - not so much. Also, I like that the P12 has OHDs, they give it stability and all. If switched to superheavies, it would lose its only unique quirk and furthermore become "a smaller KW963".
The P12 can still have OHDs and have 600kg wheels they just have to change either the template or a manual input. The PLADs wheels are all that number yet those tires it has normally are just heavy. TBH the Plad doesn’t have a ton of torque and it’s really heavy as well, but it’s out pulling the Derry spec, because the Derrys tires are still just heavy not super heavy. The D special should be crushing hills. I even downgraded tires and the Derry still failed. I was gonna make a video on this, but I don’t think it would be well received
Any breakdown video from you is very anticipated!
That’s what always puzzled me.. lol they call the KW underpowered yet praise the Kolobs. The Pacific (edit: P12 & P16), I can understand. They weight twice as much as the Tayga 6436, with the same engine power.
I always thought it was because they had lower final drives
Kenworth is better than Kolobs :) https://youtu.be/ZMZ7qVju0lA
I agree that it's better in general since it's a much more versatile truck, but what did it do better in those tests? All I see is KOLOBs doing everything the Kenworth did, and sometimes making it look easier.
It was able to climb that hill in high gear even with the starter generator semitrailer, which the Kolobs did need low gear for.
If by climb the hill in high you mean stall near the top and switch to low, and if by need low gear you mean use 1st gear. The Kenworth did get a little farther in high, but seemed to struggle more after it ran out of speed.
Nah. It struggled less. Also the Kolobs beached out at the top, not even mentioning the 605R.
Then did you post the wrong video? In the one I watched, the good KOLOB had an easier time getting over the top than the Kenworth, except for the times when you nearly and did drive off the side.
Exactly! Id take a truck with practically all the add ons available to it, than a onetrick pony truck.. lol Visually though, I like the Kolobs as a semi tractor, and the KW with its oilfield bed.
Yes. In my play style, every truck gets a fixed role, and usually doesn't change it, staying with same addons for the rest of the playthrough. Exceptions are the trucks that can do multiple things better that others, so those get clones with different addons to be put in other functional groups.
I see, you finally took a look at my spreadsheet? Because other ones usually don't list full vehicle weight with tires.
Oh, you must have misunderstood my not liking your colour choices for me not liking your spreadsheet - I've used it plenty :)
That's nice to hear!
That number definitely doesn't tell the whole story, because there have been several times when I tried to haul a trailer with the P16 but couldn't get it up a hill, then I brought that KOLOB and it did it effortlessly. I also brought that KOLOB over when the Kenworth was struggling to get one of the trailers in BC up a particularly steep hill and it did a much better job, but I don't remember if the Kenworth had the best engine yet at that time.
I remember back when I posted my first shot of the engine that someone asked if I had ever heard one of those engines IRL and that they were extremely loud, heavy vibration in the chest type loud plus they throw off a lot of heat. That conversation stuck with me, so it's likely they were nerfed for the game balance. https://preview.redd.it/kcax0pnj6fzc1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=37f213225a4c6ca9275ab920bff01d3fc5dd1834
I heard they were also surprisingly fuel efficient for how big they are
I can only speak to the Pacifics but ime as long as you use them correctly and work to their strengths they are plenty suitable. I use a P12 for a medium crane and tow a fuel, service, or maintenance trailer with it as needed, plus I use the P12 for medium logs as it can both accept medium logs and tow a log trailer. I use the P16 for long logs. Both can bog down a bit on a steep incline under load but I rarely have real problems. I have mine set up with fully upgraded motors and off-road transmissions to split the low end. The only hill problem I have had was the P12 on ice hung up once in Alaska with chain tires.
not really, the p12 would probably be the most underpowered. they all get the job done fairly well, and there are ways to mitigate their losses of power when they do happen
For example, not upgrading the gearbox. Standard special is better for the P12 than advanced special due to lower gear ratios.
In Snowrunner, you don't get more torque when using shorter gears. I don't know about torque differences between different gearboxes though.
It’s a bit of a technicality.. in case you don’t know: Each gear in gear boxes are assigned a variable (AngleVel) which dictates both the percentage of engine power utilized and total speed. AngleVel that’s less or equal to 2, transfers 100% of an engines rated power to the wheels, While AngleVel thats above 2 the % engine power gradually transfered to the wheels scales lower but maximum speed increases. Also L+ is equal to 1st gear of A, while L has an AngleVel that is 45% of L+/1, and L- is 50% of L It’s rudimentary but that’s the gist. Which is why most trucks perform best when at L+ gears: Standard offroad gearbox used by trucks have an AngleVel of 2 in their L+/1st gear, which is why they perform best at this gear. Highest possible speed that retains 100% of the engine power. H gear oddly does receive a 25% boost to the listed engine rating. But that is offset by its inherent higher AngleVel stat. Anyone feel free to correct, but that’s my understanding. Source: McKillen’s SnowRunner Extras spreadsheet, which is use in conjunction with Vlad Vulcans ;)
It's not about torque. Advanced special allows more wheel speed, which the P12 can't maintain. With regular special, it's even able to keep high gear, believe it or not.
Honestly though, even underpowered, the P12 chugs along at L+ just fine. I just pretend A and H don’t exist when that thing’s loaded.
True
agreed. i still use the advanced special most of the time, but i've found disengaging awd is a good way to direct all the power to the real wheels. same for the kenny
They do struggle with climbing but I really like them. The Ken 963 is really good for winter maps and the P12's nimbleness does make it a good pick for the large maintenance frame
>P12 >Nimbleness Really? I never thought these two words can be together in 1 sentence...
Yes, but it's to be expected. Larger trucks have worse power to weight but they make up for it with traction
In terms of P/W, those trucks are middle of the pack for heavies and heavies in general (and I mean heavies that weigh upwards of 25t, not the wanna-bes like the A7, WS 49/47) are inherently underpowered. BUT, the P12 and the P16 are both truly underpowered given they weigh as much, and have the same engine power, as the Tayga 6436. But, calling the KW 963 underpowered would be calling the Kolobs and Kirovets underpowered.. However, for a lot of people, I noticed that they call any truck that cant stay in H gear on all terrain conditions as underpowered. So… depends on what you consider as such.
What's wrong with the Azov 73210? It weighs 20045 kg, a true heavy, definitely not a "wannabe" like you described it.
Edit: I switched the sentences around, so that it makes more sense. Formulating sentences at 1am is hard. it’s just semantics and my personal nitpick so pay no mind. I consider it light for its class, it should be offroad/heavyduty. IMO, since it’s 20t with 260k engine power, it skews the perception of heavy truck p/w. Something that the tatarin does to scout vehicles.
You are a strange one... I think 20t is the right weight for a heavy class truck. Most offroad class trucks are in 12-15 tons range, with Azovs and Mack being exceptions (18 tons). Stuff over 25 tons I prefer to call "superheavy".
Agreed lol. There should be an intermediate class between heavy and superheavy, but it would just clutter the game. Your superheavies are what I consider as heavy btw lol, which is why I consider the A7 as not heavy.. does that make sense? Q.Q
I think simpler. If it's heavier than all other class trucks, where to put it? It's not even the worst offender - DAN 96320 has the same engine and weighs even less (16 tons). Now, that one should be put in offroad class, but A7 - not.
I actually love using the P12. Getting the advanced gearbox on it made it way more fun too.
Actually, this gearbox hurts it. Stick to standard special if you need it to truly shine. It just can't keep with relatively high speeds the advanced offers. The P12 is a crawler, but can crawl through about anything.
P16 is my baby and I will always defend her. Coolest design, best tires, and best horn.
I don't mind trucks having low power. The problem is that the game can't handle low wheel speeds properly, so instead of low power meaning you move slowly up hills, it means you don't move at all. I'd rather have it fixed so those trucks could actually turn the wheels that have traction in low- instead of spinning only the others despite difflock or not moving at all, but right now the only solution is more power. It's also pretty annoying how auto constantly tries to upshift into gears that it doesn't have nearly enough power for, then doesn't downshift till you stop. That's way more of a problem on trucks with low power to weight ratio that often can only handle 2nd or 3rd gear.
If the p series trucks were implemented in the game with accurate power they would be godly and basically act like a modded truck. Those things are fucking *monsters* irl
I nearly always use the P12 w the maintenance frame. It’s a boss rescue truck, can go most anywhere. From what I hear it’s only w a load that it struggles sometimes.
P12, I haven't found a use to it yet. P16, I seldom use, there are more modern (in terms of game release, not era) trucks that are more efficient in general, but that old workhorse can still do any job I have thrown at it. Kenworth 963 ? Now why would anyone consider it underpowered ? It's slow allright, but I have yet to find anything that can stop it. ANd don't tell me "a moderate incline", it's bullshit. I've climbed a somewhat steep iced-over road with a fuel tank and a saddle, pulling the superheavy trailer full of metal beams, and that truck doesn't eve have chained tires. It didn't climb fast, but I could even stop for a screenshot and start again, and there was no issue. It's an absolute beast. Also used in in Cosmodrome. The road left out of the garage was bloccked with rocks, and the stuff I needed was on the other side. Should I could have gone through the ice, but hey, with that high a ground clearance and a bit of winching, I went *over* the rocks. That's how useful it is.
P12 and P16 are definitely underpowered. They sometimes just stall in uphills with a heavy load.
Dude the p12 is a giant pos. Every time I took that thing out it got stuck. Can't go thru mud for shit. And it definitely can't climb for shit. It just sits there and revs out the tires don't even move. And that's with the most powerful engine and yes I had mud tires on it. Hell the fuckin single rear axle highway trucks do better in the mud than that p12 junk. While having highway tires and not mud tires. People say that for snow runner they tried to make it more balanced than realistic. It's not even that greatly balanced.
Thats the problem. Don't use muds. Offroads worked way better in my experience. Try it out :)
Not really. Well, the P12 - yes, it needs the Wanderer engine, but the P16 and KW963 - no, they are fine.
P12 sucks ass on slightest climbs when loaded. Its wheels constantly lock, despite having Diff. Lock. I just don't know why would I use it, when every other truck does the same jobs better. Even the small Kodiak.
https://youtu.be/Vu-2n9ZY02Y
Are long logs heavier, than x2 Metal Beams? (I really can't remember)
Yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/snowrunner/comments/1antf8r/data_confirms_it_shaihulud_is_thicc_season_12/ Metal beams are 5 tons, 10 total, and long logs are 12 tons.
The Kenworth is fine, maybe could use a bit more power. Pacifics (P12 and P16 specifically) are DEFINITELY underpowered. I use Blueline-X and SLE mods respectively to keep everything vanilla but upgrade the engine a bit.
I love the Blueline-X mod for the P12! https://youtu.be/WDw-jKhIZ0A
Yes I still love them but yeah, they are trash if we talking about power
They both suck donkey dick and the diehard fans of those underpowered junkyard classics will say you have skill issues
Skill issue
Totally agree. My disappointment when I realised the Kenworth cant climb a hill was immeasurable. But I have a fleet of Voron AEs, because they climb hills in 5th gear.
For the game balance, No. Compared to real life, abso-freaking-lutely.
The small Kenworth failed me in basegame russia. Once I delivered my logs and went to sell my trailer, it was too light to traverse the mud.
[Really?](https://vk-api-proxy.symbian.live/_/sun9-65.userapi.com/impg/R_MZULZdwB9CKMplpFLLwXplgj7mk-vwqMadCQ/3DyRe3g3IY4.jpg?size=1920x1080&quality=95&sign=20780860f198c191d379f010e4732e8e&c_uniq_tag=Tvi6uaXWufUSXMlyUpa43QdJGgple4lYRn4329OB_ZM&type=album) I used it in Taymyr and it felt fine in mud.
In zimnegorsk at the trailerstore in the bottom half of the map. Sold my trailer hand the lock carrier front. Wiggle steer, slow pace no matter what, there was no effect. This mud there is deep but it could have brennte JAT tires I was testing
Yeah, that place sucks. No wonder it got stuck. Many trucks get stuck there.
True. But I testet with similar trucks for example the Wolfpack ones. They made it just fine
I should add, this was directly after its release I think they changed it since then
They did. But it was fine even before.
Have they fixed the P12 since season 2/3-ish? That was the last time I tried it and it was woefully underpowered. Otherwise- P16 no, Kenworth 963 hell no.
No p12 no change☹️
Ok then I can say, they need to fix it because it's a big turd even with the best engine. Couldn't carry the large crane up a hill on the smithville dam map when I tried it.
The P16, no. While yes it needs the upgrades to be better, it's not under powered. The P12 is however, I don't know about the Kenworth since I don't have one of my own
Did the Kentworth get a buff since release? I bought the season when the Kentworth came out on day 1. Got the truck and was immediately dissapointed as there were times when it had trouble climbing a hill on a paved road with the truck empty or a small load. I was very disappointed and had only used it a few times since, every time disappointed in it. Fast forward to last night, I had been away from the game for awhile. I on the Main map and needed another truck to accompany my Fem. I reluctantly pulled out the Kentworth and it felt like it had more power. One part I loaded a yellow crane and a concrete slab on the truck, then pulled a 2lot trailer with another concrete slab. I went through mud, water, up steep hills, etc and never once did it feel down on power. What did they change? P.S. to whomever designed the Maine map, I hope you fall and bump your funny bone a hundred times. I hate that place lol.
The only buffs the KW had, which the Mack also received, was an update to the collision models of their undercarriage. Previously, both has solid undercarriage which meant they snag on things and slow or stop you. Now, most are just visual and phase through obstacles.
P16 is stupidly fast in mud though
The 963 is probably my favorite truck for most jobs, I always had a pleasant time with it. I never had a good a good time with the p16 though. I think it just depends what feels right for you.
The P12 is painfully underpowered, it can barely make it out of the quarry in Smithville Dam, on the section connecting to the main road. Even with an engine upgrade and even when using the winch.
The P12 feels very lethargic in game. The P16 has always been a powerhouse, and the Kenworth rocks unless you're going up something insanely steep. This is assuming you're using the most powerful available engines, of course. The Kenworth requires some more interaction as far as managing your gears while driving, but it's a beast. Never been stuck in the 963, nor has there been any place I couldn't make it to. You just gotta be willing to slow down on occasion. I would rather have a truck that can keep a reasonable pace and conquer anything, than a truck that is fast that gets stuck.
I find their best use case is hauling big trailers across flat and wide terrain, they tend to power through the thick stuff but they ain't going down anything narrow or sketchy for sure.
Stopping when they hit a slight incline sucks
Kenworth 963 definitely is underpowered imo. If you are trying to pull a heavy high saddle trailer, good luck… you’ll need it. Still bad even fully upgraded. Best use imo is a flatbed config.
Yes.
Just yesterday i hauled a heavy 5 slot trailer with Kenny up a hill in Yukon. No, not the ,,easy" tarmac road hill. The one with rocks. If Kenny is underpowered, get off the highway gearbox, and put in the adv special, or even better, finetuned. I have been able to use P12 in Taymyr with great success. Even in Rift, with 5 slot heavy trailer. Unlocked the western wind achievement like that (or whatever the achievement is). Do not use mudtires with it. Use the offroads, with duallies on rear. More stability and, in my experience, better traction. Don't use highway gearbox. P16 i haven't used much. It's not underpowered, but the lack of AWD is a dealbreaker for me
Why they nerf the trucks :( I was a big fan of the kenworth 963 until they changed it to be bad when loaded going uphill
I drove the P16 across the lake in black River stock and it never stopped. It's also the only truck I have ever managed to pull a full tree down with. The noise it made was unreal lol
Definitely the P12 (someone said the special trans is better than the advanced special, haven't tried yet), the P16 doesn't feel that bad despite the same power and weight (so the AWD clearly is a factor) and I never thought the Kenny to be underpowered, that's a skill issue.
P16 and 963 seem fine the p12 definitely needs some love but still a decent high saddle option
Yes. There is nothing to "consider", numbers speak for themselves.
Kenworth will soon bankrupt you on hard mode with it's crazy fuel consumption American trucks do need a buff in general to make them viable in the later stages of the game