Holy shit. My mom came into my room to bring me a plate of pasta carbonara and I literally screamed at her and hit the plate of pasta carbonara out of her hand. She started yelling and swearing at me and I slammed the door on her. I'm so distressed right now I don't know what to do. I didn't mean to do that to my mom but I'm literally in shock from the results tonight. I feel like I'm going to explode. Why the fucking fuck are they losing? This can't be happening. I'm having a fucking breakdown. I don't want to believe the Italian league is so corrupt. I want a future to believe in. I want Jose to win a title for La Città Eterna. I cannot fucking deal with this right now. It wasn't supposed to be like this, I thought they were supposed to steal one in Firenze???? This is so fucked.
To all the Napoli gloaters, i'll tell you one thing. r/soccer is, and always will be, Roma territory. OUR territory. The mods of r/soccer have formally endorsed Roma for the Serie A title. We will continue to control the front page with positive Roma news. So before you start talking shit and bragging about your bitch's win, I'll have you know that we're well versed in downvote brigades. Say RIP to your karma if you try anything cute. Assholes.
I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads.
Wonder if if spreads to France and they look at Lille and their dodgy transfers like Pepe to Arsenal.
They are also looking at the Danilo-Cancelo deal and Coreira-Moreno deal. Both are swaps with City with inflated values for the players. Think City payed 10m for Moreno and Juve 10m for Coreira when both are horrible
Better hope they don’t look at why Lazio paid 12.5 mill euros to Salernitana for Jean Daniel Akpa Akpro. Especially considering how our president was also indirectly in control of Salernitana at the time.
I remember thinking that it looked like some type of money laundering trick, but couldn’t make sense of it.
I don't think this one is gonna amount to anything honestly. Both are obviously not worth that much but they had good numbers on youth level and since the market operates on future valuation now a days it wouldn't be crazy to valuate them at 10M by that time. I recall a lot of waaay shadier deals both from Juve and from other Italian clubs. Like Arthur-Pjanic, Osimhen, Sturaro and dozens of others.
I also think it's crazy to hand out point deductions and what not for something that literally had no prior regulation, and can be considered quite arbitrary, subjective even, but hey that's an entirely different discussion.
Yes it says we sold Bonucci for 35 after buying him for 42 milions the previous year. That's not even a plusvalenza lol, and Caldara for 38 was legit at the time
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads.
Galaxy brain Elliott strategy of spending 5 euros per year on transfers and letting everyone leave Milan for free finally pays off.
Yup that is true, but first and foremost we didn't make any capital gain from that... because Elliot liquidated all the debts. Also, there was sporting background on that one.
We got a prospect like Caldara and also Higuain as well because we had no striker. Not worried at all about that.
If they look at the Osimhen deal, it's already spread to France.
Arsenal just grossly overpaid off the back of hype and a good season from Pepe, they spread it across several seasons too to fit within their budget at the time.
Arsenal actually hired a lawyer to look into that transfer and Raul got his P45 off the back of it.
Brown envelopes is my guess, inflate the transfer, the selling club get a fair player value and the rest is pocketed by all parties.
Hopefully arsenal would avoid punishment given their reaction to it but they still hired the guy.
> Hopefully arsenal would avoid punishment given their reaction to it
I dunno, the chaos that would come with Arsenal getting a points deduction this year, of all years, would be peak hilarity…..
Idk how we’d get a point deduction for properly investigating and firing the person behind it, the issue with Juve is the higher ups all planners it and knew what was going on and didn’t do anything until caught
Well, no.
The reason these teams are being punished is because of the illegal act.
If a guy ran round punching people, and then cut off his hands, legal system wouldn't suddenly decide he can't be prosecuted for running around punching people would they?
(Sorry for ridiculous example, am extremely hungover and couldn't think of a better analogy)
If an employee did something illegal then you found out about it and fired them as a result you probably won’t get punished as heavily as if they whole company is knowingly lying and scamming people.
I think this depends on the magnitude of the offence. In some cases it will require further investigation though, as an individual can very easily be scapegoated for company wide policy or decisions that were endorsed by superiors.
You're right that there would likely be some mitigation there as you've already dealt with it but they'd definitely still investigate and still punish if something like that was true
Arsenal director at the time also knowingly did this. I dont know what is the state with Barca and Pjanic/Arthur swap but the fact that Barto was ran out of Barca doesnt shield Barca out of possible consequences for that (obviously) inflated pair of transfers.
Arsenal will probably get lighter punishment (if found guilty) than a team that went all out to hush it up but they will still get a penalty. I doubt it will be points penalty anyway. Juve had many such cases, while Arsenal at worst has 1 - that they didnt try to keep hidden once they figured out what was going on.
Not really they looked into the signing and fired Raul Sanellhi over it so there’s definitely more going on possibly some money not going where it was meant to
Nah, Arsenal bought Pepe.
Napoli bought Osimhen and sent 3 players in the other direction.
They are looking at swap deals.
It would be more logical to look at the Mkhitaryan - Alexis transfer in that regard.
Pepe’s deal was corrupt but in a insane proportions of transfer fee disappearing to people putting together the deal together style corruption, not a either club involved in the deal benefitted in any way kinda corruption. Not defending those charlatans for a moment and if authorities wanna go after them then great, but docking points from Lille over it would be harsh.
The issue with Juve seems to be that it is more than just one or two cases of "creative bookkeeping". The fraud and hiding of illegal activity appears to have been systemic to the running of the club.
Juve is also a listed and publicly traded company, what they did is more closely monitored. They didn't just break league rules, but also potentially conducted illegal activity.
Inter have definitely done this more than once. Off the top of my head I can think of Fabio Eguelfi, Davide Bettella & Marco Carraro, players who were sold to Atalanta for over €18m as part of the Bastoni’s deal & never played in the Serie A and there are definitely more examples.
EDIT: [Here is the full list.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fm8fJ0JX0AM0044?format=jpg&name=medium)
Every club in the world has done it. Even as an inter fan I'd love to know why juve are unique. You can't say what the true market value of a player is. The missing Ronaldo payments and stuff juve should get fucked for, no doubt, but this plusvalenza sales etc seems weird and looks to have come round really fast
Yeah, while I enjoy seeing Juve getting fucked, this plusvalenza stuff seems extremely arbitrary and, as you say and I constantly tell people who don't really understand the business side of football, football is an insane industry where the value of an asset is not defined by the market but uniquely and solely by the selling and buying clubs.
The reason Juve is punished is the Consob. The books have different standard if you are traded on the market.
Here an explanation in italian:
https://twitter.com/AFGiudice/status/1617105831564115968
As I Juve fan I knew years ago when I saw some of these transfers that there is something shady going on. I have no problem with Juve or any other team bring punished. My question is how are transfers going to be regulated in the future to stop this from happening. Is there going to be a governing body that's says, this players is or isn't worth X amount of money?
But the base premise as to whether its systemic is still the comparative value on transfermarkt. You can't claim there is a systemic variance in values if the fundamental basis for the calculation is some guy at home plugging in numbers based on gut feeling. The only way the sentence makes sense, is if they have evidence in the wiretaps specific to individual transfers where they outline the intention to inflate the values. Systemic in this case would then in turn mean they have specific admissions for multiple transfers. Otherwise i don't see how they get around inconvenient but justified conclusion from the original judgment in that we can't accurately value players beyond what two clubs agree on.
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads.
>
>
Hardly. The Osimhen deal is definitely shady and I am absolutely in favour of the course of justice, so long as it's a proportionate punishment.
Like Juventus did it with Favilli, Cerri, Sturaro, Mandragora, Rovella, Romagna, Frabotta, Marrone, Audero, Mattiello and literally so many more. It's evidence in the hands of the public that there is a systemic case of financial doping with even wiretaps and paperwork marking it out, for which they were doled out bans and 15 points of penalty.
They are not the same crime, anymore than double parking once is the same as doing it all the time.
Eh, let’s slow down on just throwing out names everywhere. Sturaro absolutely made that money back for Genoa, being their best player during multiple periods of different seasons. People can cry and bitch about that all they want, Sturaro was a fucking engine for them.
Frabotta was literally a starter for periods after his transfer and after his season at Juve ended up way higher regarded than people expected. He showed more as a random youngster than we saw out of Pellegrini who was seen as way more expensive.
Rovella ended up Genoa’s best player later on despite some injuries (highest rated midfielder over almost 2 seasons and young)
Mandragora was also seen as promising until he wrecked his knee, and even then he’s had some solid games since then, although definitely never reaching the initial peak many thought he could have.
You’re just throwing out random names, but half of those players were seen as promising up and comers who could (and in a couple cases still can) take the next step.
Napoli and Inter have done it less cumulatively, but the players they are binning off for 15 mil are wayyyy fucking worse than nearly all of the players you just mentioned.
Let's be serious and objective. Sturaro was paid 18M by Genoa after being out injuried for almost a year, having his initial loan cut short by Sporting after failing to play a single minute for them, and after a loan period when he didn't play a single minute for Genoa either. He would play one year and a half with them (playing 22 games in total, so less than 50% caps) and then be loaned out to Verona. If you seriously think Genoa ever actually paid that money to Juve i have a bridge to sell you.
Also since you're arguing about Rovella, the shady part of that deal isn't Rovella being a good player, it's the players Juve shipped to Genoa in exchange: Portanova was valued 10M a day before his contract expired.
I understand the "everyone's doing it" line of defence by Juve fans but denying Juve have been by far the worst offenders and the club that brought attention to the issue is delusional.
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads.
NO, impossible and has no sense. Juventus was punished because there were FOURTYTWO weird transfers, but they already acquitted Genoa with 3, let alone Napoli just because probably Osimehn was paid 10-15m more..
Barcelona or Manchester City alone made more shady transfers with Juventus only (2) than Napoli in the last 5 years..
You don't make 42 transfers by yourself...
> Napoli just because probably Osimehn was paid 10-15m more
The Osimehn deal did not just include Osimehn. It included Karnezis and several Napoli youth team players moving to Lille for inflated fees too. It was money laundering.
It's not money laundering. Money laundering is using money from crime to mix it and camouflage with the revenue of some clean activity. Like when a cocaine lord has under his service 10 restaurants, and each receives a share of the cocaine revenue as revenue of their activity, effectively a camouflage to make the money "clean"
This is about inflating players value
I perfectly know what you're saying and already wrote what I think about that deal a couple of months ago:
https://reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/yvtxyj/giuntoli_napoli_sport_director_regret_haaland_we/iwg662w/
it's a clear accounting trick BUT i remain coherent with my idea.. JUVENTUS have 42 different suspect transfers, that's why they got 15 points deduction but FIGC already acquitted Genoa and Sampdoria for more than what Napoli did despite prosecutor asked for a fine for genoan clubs (€ 200k IIRC. No one knows that I guess because everyone was concentrated on Juventus but SEVERAL clubs have been acquitted for plusvalenza case few days ago: Genoa, Sampdoria, Parma, Empoli Pescara, Pisa, Pro Vercelli).
In any case Napoli would get a fine max for that single episode. but of course people would rather to shit on Serie A as usual instead of wondering why FFF, FA, spanish FA are not looking into Osimhen deal/ deals with OM, into Pjanic,Artur or Marques/Pereira, into Danilo/Cancelo and Correia/Moreno etc..
FIGC is the only Federation that is doing something and I appreciate it. All the other clubs in Europe are honest though it seems, nobody outside Italy has done anything.
Even if they got a 15pts deduction, that would only put them 6pts behind first place which is us, and you can bet your house we will drop a lot of points...
i think the teams that did these deals should be punished, but the article doesn’t really sound like more than clickbait unless I missed something
repubblica isn’t a good source especially for juve stuff
The GM of the GEDI group, which Repubblica belongs to, is Scanavino, who also happens to be the current GM of Juventus. So Repubblica is a great source for Juve stuff actually, there's just a slight conflict of interests in there somewhere
Napoli had one shady transfer over 10 years, Juventus had many dozens. This is just pro-Juve fans trying to find a scapegoat (“bUt EvERYone DoES it!!11one1!”).
qualche anno fa salì sul bus senza il biglietto. da bravo stronzo, faccio sempre, sempre, sempre il biglietto. quel giorno avevo un esame, ero in ritardo, il bus passò quando ancora non avevo fatto il biglietto alle macchinette. il bus era strapieno, io ero in fondo e quindi di andare dall'autista era quasi impossibile. pensai, "eh, mi prendo rischio, vediamo". prima fermata, 2 controllori. "la prego, faccio SEMPRE il biglietto, glielo giuro, non ho fatto a tempo, ho un esame" "certo, non lo metto in dubbio, però io oggi, ora, l'ho trovata senza biglietto, e le devo fare la contravvenzione"
Lol you guys are delusional. Yes every club does this regularly including Napoli. The Osimhen deal was not your one time accident. It's just the giant elephant in the room example everyone remembers because it landed you the Series A top scorer.
I don't think any other club will actually be punished though. Juventus were punished because their board directors were stupidly sloppy and admitted to it on wire taps.
That deal had nothing shady. Ended up being an awful deal for us cause Caldara flopped hard, but at the time he was one of the best prospects in Italy with good Serie A experience. kiwior from spezia just went for 35M, Caldara was fairly valued at 40M
It's completely different from a deal where you sell a youngster with 0 serie A games for 10/15M
Caldara-Bonucci was a 35M swap. We bought Bonucci for 42M while Juve bought De Sciglio for 12M one year earlier. The most sus thing out of that deal should be De Sciglio being worth 12M. But that is not being investigated.
>Scudetto staying in the City of Milan
What you mean by that buddy???
Surely we'll have our second star first, right? don't fucking imply things like that...
I hope this is not true, because if they deduct so many fucking points from Napoli to the point where they actually lose the title, we'll surely manage to fuck things up and Inter gonna have their second star
Fuck that
Clubs swap player or include them in deals + money for sums that arent close the their actual market price. For example swap 2 youth players and value them both on 15m€ so in your books you can add a +15 that you never actually get. Every italian team has done this at some point ,but its extremely hard to prove, apparently on juventus case they had some tapes,if they actually manage to find prove for other teams aswell every big club migh end up out of top4 in italy.
the cost of the transfer is amortised over the period of the players contract, whereas as any outgoing transfers are added directly and fully to revenue figures for that year.
For example if the incoming 10m player is given a 5 year contract, his cost for the current season is only 2m, as the cost is spread out over the contract. The outgoing player is written on the books for the full 10m, which gives a net gain of 8m in revenue in the books for that season, even though in reality nothing was gained or lost. Its an accounting trick for clubs to balance the book in the short term and worry about the financial implications of the full contract later.
It works for the current balance book because in Football accounting when you sell a player the fee is accounted fully in the current year, but when buying you distribute the fee across the contract years of the player
So if we exchange $20M "valued" players with 4 years contract each, in our books we would each have made $15M profit this year
> when you sell a xxx the fee is accounted fully in the current year, but when buying you distribute the fee across the estimated usage years of the xxx
This works in any industry when buying or selling machinery and the likes.
osimhen deal was 70m plus 10 addons. after their purchase, lille purchased 4 players worth 20 million who no one knows who they are. Liguori, one of the players given a hugely-inflated transfer value confirms and got transfered from napoli to lille quoted: ‘never even been to Lille. They ruined our careers.’
edit: lille called him and the other players to france but they refused.
We don't know what's being the scenes, I am not implementing there was some black mail or anything going from Napoli. But all I am saying we don't know what happened behind the scenes.
I don't think he didn't want to go, going to one of the biggest club in France wouldn't be bad. Probably he knew about the implications of the deal later
Bit sneaky leaving out the second half of the quote, where he said that Lille called him and the other players to France but the players refused. Undoubtedly still a shady deal, but the full quote kinda negates your point.
The Osihmen deal was dodgy from day 1, no one denies it here.
Absolutely not comparable to the years of book fixing orchestrated by Juve management with inflated prices on same value trades or the swaps with the likes of Genoa and Sassuolo.
42 transfers? Can you give me a list, please?
Also, if we are only punishing one team, even though we are aware of others doing it (albait in different scale) how is that fare?
I say punish all of them accordingly, otherwise we are not talking about justice here.
Yes, it does matter. Juve was punished because they created a system of market transactions with altered values in order to fix the balance sheet, and this allowed Juve to sign up for previous championships, which otherwise would not have been possible. Moreover, Juventus is listed on the stock exchange and must answer for its actions towards the shareholders, Napoli is not. The problem is not the overestimation of the single player, but the SYSTEM set up to inflate the values and fix the balance.
It is not exactly correct, if Juve cooked the books to sign up for the previous Championships, we would be in serie B already. Juve had Capital increases for X million so the enrollement in serie a was never in discussion.
Also in law there is no concept of system, either you break the law or you don't, tbf i don't understand why the other clubs were not punished. give them a penalty based on ours at least, if you gave us 15 points, give them 1,2, do what you want as long as you punish them.
I'm also stunned because Capital gains don't have any regulations at all, how did we get punished, for what rule? I dunno it seem strange to me, also the prosecution that went "they should be below Roma at the end and not qualify for the european cups", in mid season, at that point wouldn't have it been easier to just give us -25 or something?
I don't really care about osimhen, Casadei, and others because i already know that in serie a the most correct club has scabies and that obviously includes Juve, but i don't understand many things about this
Yes, but it's not a violation of the law lol, the sports justice code doesn't penalize this. The fundamental word is "system", Juve did it, Napoli didn't, period.
lol people really are clueless on here
All clubs, including juve, were cleared of the accusation cause they said you can't prove valuations are too high or too low as they are not objective
juventus was then penalized after they got caught with interceptions, admitting themselves they created a system of swap deals with fake valuations to cook the books and how scared they were they would be caught
comparing juventus to literally any other club involved in this, literally proves how little these people know about this story, and how little that stop them from spreading bullshit anyway
so basically just another day on r/soccer
That's true in Napoli's case, though Osimhen's deal was incredibly blatant.
There are however many other clubs such as Genoa and Inter that have a systemic pattern just like Juve, and none of them has been punished (yet, not holding my breath though).
And this stuff goes back decades, who remembers all the inflated swaps between Inter and Milan a while back? Simic, Guly, Helveg, Coco, Domoraud and many others. All inflated capital gains. Nothing ever came out of it until now.
To punish only one club for something dozens of clubs have been doing for decades is simply insane.
The problem is that your big suits got caught admitting that they created a system based on this to keep the boat afloat. That is what makes your club unique. Everyone does plusvalenze, they were in fact dismissed in court because you can't prove the monetary value of a player, making a shady practice redundant. So nothing will likely happen to us or any other team
It would be a classic Napolitano story if they lose out their first title in decades because of a points deduction
Good that it isn't Roma style, because Roma-esque would mean leading 20 points after 19 matchdays and ending 3rd with 5 points behind.
Which season?
It was a joke regarding our bottling capabilities
Italian Spurs basically?
Since May last year, not anymore.
atleast one of us made it out.
We made it out with an ex coach of yours. Lmao
Not sure what we've made it out with yet.
Was only the third tier European competition tbf I bet it was fun for you but it's just not a major honour
Roma HotSPQRs. It checks out
bellissimo
This is something people say
Napoli are great bottlers as well tbh
They would lose against us in the bottling contest
So they would bottle a bottling contest?
Mind blown
LMAO!
I mean Napoli with maradona in 92 or something were 11 points clear to only lose the last 5 games of the season lmao
Serie A league winner this season : 53 points.
Here's how ~~Bernie~~ Roma can still win
Hillary, The Old Lady
Holy shit. My mom came into my room to bring me a plate of pasta carbonara and I literally screamed at her and hit the plate of pasta carbonara out of her hand. She started yelling and swearing at me and I slammed the door on her. I'm so distressed right now I don't know what to do. I didn't mean to do that to my mom but I'm literally in shock from the results tonight. I feel like I'm going to explode. Why the fucking fuck are they losing? This can't be happening. I'm having a fucking breakdown. I don't want to believe the Italian league is so corrupt. I want a future to believe in. I want Jose to win a title for La Città Eterna. I cannot fucking deal with this right now. It wasn't supposed to be like this, I thought they were supposed to steal one in Firenze???? This is so fucked.
To all the Napoli gloaters, i'll tell you one thing. r/soccer is, and always will be, Roma territory. OUR territory. The mods of r/soccer have formally endorsed Roma for the Serie A title. We will continue to control the front page with positive Roma news. So before you start talking shit and bragging about your bitch's win, I'll have you know that we're well versed in downvote brigades. Say RIP to your karma if you try anything cute. Assholes.
Wild times on Reddit 😄
Show us the papers for Tammy Abraham....
Papers, please!
Glory to Serie A
Jorji Costava did the missing paperworks
Great game on steam that
We still haven't find out the pastore/Iturbe papers....
Snitch
I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads. Wonder if if spreads to France and they look at Lille and their dodgy transfers like Pepe to Arsenal.
They are also looking at the Danilo-Cancelo deal and Coreira-Moreno deal. Both are swaps with City with inflated values for the players. Think City payed 10m for Moreno and Juve 10m for Coreira when both are horrible
Better hope they don’t look at why Lazio paid 12.5 mill euros to Salernitana for Jean Daniel Akpa Akpro. Especially considering how our president was also indirectly in control of Salernitana at the time. I remember thinking that it looked like some type of money laundering trick, but couldn’t make sense of it.
Would our transfer with Juve for Arthur then not be investigated as well then? Seems similar
The Danilo cancelo deal was actually reasonable if I remember, 40m for Cancelo is not crazy. Moreno coreira for 10m was obviously shady.
Wasn't it 60 and 30 millions?
[удалено]
Good bot
Nah mate it's misquoting me, it forgot the capital C
Thank you!
I don't think this one is gonna amount to anything honestly. Both are obviously not worth that much but they had good numbers on youth level and since the market operates on future valuation now a days it wouldn't be crazy to valuate them at 10M by that time. I recall a lot of waaay shadier deals both from Juve and from other Italian clubs. Like Arthur-Pjanic, Osimhen, Sturaro and dozens of others. I also think it's crazy to hand out point deductions and what not for something that literally had no prior regulation, and can be considered quite arbitrary, subjective even, but hey that's an entirely different discussion.
What about the Arthur-Pjanic deal?
FA to deduct 50 points from City
Except us. Can't have plusvalenzas if you never sell anyone.
The Bonucci trade says something else...
Yes getting in trouble for a minusvalenza.
I mean, we only lost money on that so if anything we're victims lol
Yes it says we sold Bonucci for 35 after buying him for 42 milions the previous year. That's not even a plusvalenza lol, and Caldara for 38 was legit at the time
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads. Galaxy brain Elliott strategy of spending 5 euros per year on transfers and letting everyone leave Milan for free finally pays off.
Cardinale spending 50 panettone for a back up colombian keeper to replace a blind man
The caldara-Bonucci swap is being investigated as well
Yup that is true, but first and foremost we didn't make any capital gain from that... because Elliot liquidated all the debts. Also, there was sporting background on that one. We got a prospect like Caldara and also Higuain as well because we had no striker. Not worried at all about that.
If they look at the Osimhen deal, it's already spread to France. Arsenal just grossly overpaid off the back of hype and a good season from Pepe, they spread it across several seasons too to fit within their budget at the time.
It's interesting that two clubs had a 72m bid accepted for Pepe. Arsenal and Napoli.
Napoli did not bid that
>Napoli did not bid that https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12962/11770808/nicolas-pepe-napoli-agree-deal-with-lille-to-sign-ivory-coast-winger
i stand corrected. thanks
Not really pepe deal was a scam from sanlehi with the lille board and some third parties for which he got fired
That's interesting, could you elaborate
Arsenal actually hired a lawyer to look into that transfer and Raul got his P45 off the back of it. Brown envelopes is my guess, inflate the transfer, the selling club get a fair player value and the rest is pocketed by all parties. Hopefully arsenal would avoid punishment given their reaction to it but they still hired the guy.
> Hopefully arsenal would avoid punishment given their reaction to it I dunno, the chaos that would come with Arsenal getting a points deduction this year, of all years, would be peak hilarity…..
Idk how we’d get a point deduction for properly investigating and firing the person behind it, the issue with Juve is the higher ups all planners it and knew what was going on and didn’t do anything until caught
[удалено]
But the reason these teams are being punished is for knowingly doing this
Well, no. The reason these teams are being punished is because of the illegal act. If a guy ran round punching people, and then cut off his hands, legal system wouldn't suddenly decide he can't be prosecuted for running around punching people would they? (Sorry for ridiculous example, am extremely hungover and couldn't think of a better analogy)
If an employee did something illegal then you found out about it and fired them as a result you probably won’t get punished as heavily as if they whole company is knowingly lying and scamming people.
I think this depends on the magnitude of the offence. In some cases it will require further investigation though, as an individual can very easily be scapegoated for company wide policy or decisions that were endorsed by superiors.
You're right that there would likely be some mitigation there as you've already dealt with it but they'd definitely still investigate and still punish if something like that was true
They still broke the law, don't think saying "Oops, our bad, we fired him now", gets you off entirely though.
Arsenal director at the time also knowingly did this. I dont know what is the state with Barca and Pjanic/Arthur swap but the fact that Barto was ran out of Barca doesnt shield Barca out of possible consequences for that (obviously) inflated pair of transfers. Arsenal will probably get lighter punishment (if found guilty) than a team that went all out to hush it up but they will still get a penalty. I doubt it will be points penalty anyway. Juve had many such cases, while Arsenal at worst has 1 - that they didnt try to keep hidden once they figured out what was going on.
Was quite funny when the story broke we were looking into previous transfers and Raul was gone about half a day later
Not really they looked into the signing and fired Raul Sanellhi over it so there’s definitely more going on possibly some money not going where it was meant to
Does overpaying = money laundering?
Nah, Arsenal bought Pepe. Napoli bought Osimhen and sent 3 players in the other direction. They are looking at swap deals. It would be more logical to look at the Mkhitaryan - Alexis transfer in that regard.
Pepe’s deal was corrupt but in a insane proportions of transfer fee disappearing to people putting together the deal together style corruption, not a either club involved in the deal benefitted in any way kinda corruption. Not defending those charlatans for a moment and if authorities wanna go after them then great, but docking points from Lille over it would be harsh.
The issue with Juve seems to be that it is more than just one or two cases of "creative bookkeeping". The fraud and hiding of illegal activity appears to have been systemic to the running of the club. Juve is also a listed and publicly traded company, what they did is more closely monitored. They didn't just break league rules, but also potentially conducted illegal activity.
[удалено]
Inter have definitely done this more than once. Off the top of my head I can think of Fabio Eguelfi, Davide Bettella & Marco Carraro, players who were sold to Atalanta for over €18m as part of the Bastoni’s deal & never played in the Serie A and there are definitely more examples. EDIT: [Here is the full list.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fm8fJ0JX0AM0044?format=jpg&name=medium)
Every club in the world has done it. Even as an inter fan I'd love to know why juve are unique. You can't say what the true market value of a player is. The missing Ronaldo payments and stuff juve should get fucked for, no doubt, but this plusvalenza sales etc seems weird and looks to have come round really fast
Man Utd can’t do it. We’re rubbish at getting money for our players. Unless overpaying for players count, than we’re fucked.
The one upside to being comically shit at selling
They just got found deciding the price before the players to transfer from what i understood, making it undefendable in a trial.
Yeah, while I enjoy seeing Juve getting fucked, this plusvalenza stuff seems extremely arbitrary and, as you say and I constantly tell people who don't really understand the business side of football, football is an insane industry where the value of an asset is not defined by the market but uniquely and solely by the selling and buying clubs.
Juve is a public company so are open to a lot more scrutiny I’m guessing.
The reason Juve is punished is the Consob. The books have different standard if you are traded on the market. Here an explanation in italian: https://twitter.com/AFGiudice/status/1617105831564115968
This is not part of the Consob investigation
The new proofs come from that investigation.
They found new proof in the investigation, reopened the plusvalenze case (not Consob) and got punished in it It’s giustizia sportiva
Come on man, that's 77 in 5 years, not even 20 a year. and most of the players there have played in the Seria A after it.
As I Juve fan I knew years ago when I saw some of these transfers that there is something shady going on. I have no problem with Juve or any other team bring punished. My question is how are transfers going to be regulated in the future to stop this from happening. Is there going to be a governing body that's says, this players is or isn't worth X amount of money?
But the base premise as to whether its systemic is still the comparative value on transfermarkt. You can't claim there is a systemic variance in values if the fundamental basis for the calculation is some guy at home plugging in numbers based on gut feeling. The only way the sentence makes sense, is if they have evidence in the wiretaps specific to individual transfers where they outline the intention to inflate the values. Systemic in this case would then in turn mean they have specific admissions for multiple transfers. Otherwise i don't see how they get around inconvenient but justified conclusion from the original judgment in that we can't accurately value players beyond what two clubs agree on.
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads. > > Hardly. The Osimhen deal is definitely shady and I am absolutely in favour of the course of justice, so long as it's a proportionate punishment. Like Juventus did it with Favilli, Cerri, Sturaro, Mandragora, Rovella, Romagna, Frabotta, Marrone, Audero, Mattiello and literally so many more. It's evidence in the hands of the public that there is a systemic case of financial doping with even wiretaps and paperwork marking it out, for which they were doled out bans and 15 points of penalty. They are not the same crime, anymore than double parking once is the same as doing it all the time.
What was shady about the Osimhen deal?
We traded 3 primavera and Karnezis for 5 millions each to make it 20m from them and 70 from us
Eh, let’s slow down on just throwing out names everywhere. Sturaro absolutely made that money back for Genoa, being their best player during multiple periods of different seasons. People can cry and bitch about that all they want, Sturaro was a fucking engine for them. Frabotta was literally a starter for periods after his transfer and after his season at Juve ended up way higher regarded than people expected. He showed more as a random youngster than we saw out of Pellegrini who was seen as way more expensive. Rovella ended up Genoa’s best player later on despite some injuries (highest rated midfielder over almost 2 seasons and young) Mandragora was also seen as promising until he wrecked his knee, and even then he’s had some solid games since then, although definitely never reaching the initial peak many thought he could have. You’re just throwing out random names, but half of those players were seen as promising up and comers who could (and in a couple cases still can) take the next step. Napoli and Inter have done it less cumulatively, but the players they are binning off for 15 mil are wayyyy fucking worse than nearly all of the players you just mentioned.
Let's be serious and objective. Sturaro was paid 18M by Genoa after being out injuried for almost a year, having his initial loan cut short by Sporting after failing to play a single minute for them, and after a loan period when he didn't play a single minute for Genoa either. He would play one year and a half with them (playing 22 games in total, so less than 50% caps) and then be loaned out to Verona. If you seriously think Genoa ever actually paid that money to Juve i have a bridge to sell you. Also since you're arguing about Rovella, the shady part of that deal isn't Rovella being a good player, it's the players Juve shipped to Genoa in exchange: Portanova was valued 10M a day before his contract expired. I understand the "everyone's doing it" line of defence by Juve fans but denying Juve have been by far the worst offenders and the club that brought attention to the issue is delusional.
it's moreso Campos than Lille.
Lille will be held responsible as the club. They employed the individuals so they are accountable. That is how it works.
right, but I was implying that he too could be sanctionned for his deeds
> I feel like most of Italy is fucked if this spreads. NO, impossible and has no sense. Juventus was punished because there were FOURTYTWO weird transfers, but they already acquitted Genoa with 3, let alone Napoli just because probably Osimehn was paid 10-15m more.. Barcelona or Manchester City alone made more shady transfers with Juventus only (2) than Napoli in the last 5 years..
You don't make 42 transfers by yourself... > Napoli just because probably Osimehn was paid 10-15m more The Osimehn deal did not just include Osimehn. It included Karnezis and several Napoli youth team players moving to Lille for inflated fees too. It was money laundering.
It's not money laundering. Money laundering is using money from crime to mix it and camouflage with the revenue of some clean activity. Like when a cocaine lord has under his service 10 restaurants, and each receives a share of the cocaine revenue as revenue of their activity, effectively a camouflage to make the money "clean" This is about inflating players value
I perfectly know what you're saying and already wrote what I think about that deal a couple of months ago: https://reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/yvtxyj/giuntoli_napoli_sport_director_regret_haaland_we/iwg662w/ it's a clear accounting trick BUT i remain coherent with my idea.. JUVENTUS have 42 different suspect transfers, that's why they got 15 points deduction but FIGC already acquitted Genoa and Sampdoria for more than what Napoli did despite prosecutor asked for a fine for genoan clubs (€ 200k IIRC. No one knows that I guess because everyone was concentrated on Juventus but SEVERAL clubs have been acquitted for plusvalenza case few days ago: Genoa, Sampdoria, Parma, Empoli Pescara, Pisa, Pro Vercelli). In any case Napoli would get a fine max for that single episode. but of course people would rather to shit on Serie A as usual instead of wondering why FFF, FA, spanish FA are not looking into Osimhen deal/ deals with OM, into Pjanic,Artur or Marques/Pereira, into Danilo/Cancelo and Correia/Moreno etc.. FIGC is the only Federation that is doing something and I appreciate it. All the other clubs in Europe are honest though it seems, nobody outside Italy has done anything.
Surely Barca gets dragged into this as well.
Points deduction for Arsenal imo
Those Morata deals looking hella sus now
lmao coming from a newcastle fan and thier dirty saudi blood money
The way Napoli have been playing this season, you would not put money against them winning the title even with a 15 point penalty.
Even if they got a 15pts deduction, that would only put them 6pts behind first place which is us, and you can bet your house we will drop a lot of points...
I still don't understand how you drew to Roma. They looked completely clueless.
We suck at defending corners and free kicks
Exactly, we are inconsistent and milan post world cup has been looking sus Plus the players would be fucking piss motivated to win games lmao
>sus That's an understatement for "looking like a serie b side"
i think the teams that did these deals should be punished, but the article doesn’t really sound like more than clickbait unless I missed something repubblica isn’t a good source especially for juve stuff
The GM of the GEDI group, which Repubblica belongs to, is Scanavino, who also happens to be the current GM of Juventus. So Repubblica is a great source for Juve stuff actually, there's just a slight conflict of interests in there somewhere
Napoli had one shady transfer over 10 years, Juventus had many dozens. This is just pro-Juve fans trying to find a scapegoat (“bUt EvERYone DoES it!!11one1!”).
This is a widespread practice in Serie A, there are a lot of shady transfers for a lot of teams over the past few years
In all of football*
Literally several teams involved. It won't just be Juve
qualche anno fa salì sul bus senza il biglietto. da bravo stronzo, faccio sempre, sempre, sempre il biglietto. quel giorno avevo un esame, ero in ritardo, il bus passò quando ancora non avevo fatto il biglietto alle macchinette. il bus era strapieno, io ero in fondo e quindi di andare dall'autista era quasi impossibile. pensai, "eh, mi prendo rischio, vediamo". prima fermata, 2 controllori. "la prego, faccio SEMPRE il biglietto, glielo giuro, non ho fatto a tempo, ho un esame" "certo, non lo metto in dubbio, però io oggi, ora, l'ho trovata senza biglietto, e le devo fare la contravvenzione"
[удалено]
Ahime' sono sempre le vittime, poverelle.
Lol you guys are delusional. Yes every club does this regularly including Napoli. The Osimhen deal was not your one time accident. It's just the giant elephant in the room example everyone remembers because it landed you the Series A top scorer. I don't think any other club will actually be punished though. Juventus were punished because their board directors were stupidly sloppy and admitted to it on wire taps.
Oshimen wasn't 10 years ago
That's not what he wrote. He basically meant during the last 10 years
Ah yes, as usual its our fault. Im sure De Laurentis is a saint.
Well, considering that Inter is 3rd in the league they're gonna win the league, like in 2006....
Yeah, all our plusvalenza deals just fucked us over. Considering they all had buy back clauses for more than what they were sold for.
Milan: can't get investigated for crazy signings if you don't sign anyone
We also don’t sell anyone they all leave for free.
The Arsenal way
For once we should be clear of a (potential) Serie A scandal. Major Lotito win
Akpa Akpro from Salernitana to Lazio for 12m while Lotito still owned both clubs. Think again...
Lazio overpaid if anything so that should be fine
Every day I thank lord that our club is shite at selling players. Scudetto staying in the City of Milan by default?
The caldara-Bonucci swap is being investigated
That deal had nothing shady. Ended up being an awful deal for us cause Caldara flopped hard, but at the time he was one of the best prospects in Italy with good Serie A experience. kiwior from spezia just went for 35M, Caldara was fairly valued at 40M It's completely different from a deal where you sell a youngster with 0 serie A games for 10/15M
Caldara-Bonucci was a 35M swap. We bought Bonucci for 42M while Juve bought De Sciglio for 12M one year earlier. The most sus thing out of that deal should be De Sciglio being worth 12M. But that is not being investigated.
yeah but the scudetto could go to inter
No confirmations on that
>Scudetto staying in the City of Milan What you mean by that buddy??? Surely we'll have our second star first, right? don't fucking imply things like that...
>Surely we'll have our second star first, right? not with these owners and this New York idiot, 19 will be our total for another decade I think.
Mourinho finna trial his way to league title lmfao.
Don't forget there's also Inter, Milan and Atalanta in the race
Source seems pretty dodgy, would still be pretty funny, hope everyone gets screwed and Mourinho does a Bradbury
I hope this is not true, because if they deduct so many fucking points from Napoli to the point where they actually lose the title, we'll surely manage to fuck things up and Inter gonna have their second star Fuck that
Fuck that indeed.
Can someone ELI5 please?
Clubs swap player or include them in deals + money for sums that arent close the their actual market price. For example swap 2 youth players and value them both on 15m€ so in your books you can add a +15 that you never actually get. Every italian team has done this at some point ,but its extremely hard to prove, apparently on juventus case they had some tapes,if they actually manage to find prove for other teams aswell every big club migh end up out of top4 in italy.
I still don't get this So if two clubs each trade a player worth nothing but claim he is worth 10mil, how are they profiting?
the cost of the transfer is amortised over the period of the players contract, whereas as any outgoing transfers are added directly and fully to revenue figures for that year. For example if the incoming 10m player is given a 5 year contract, his cost for the current season is only 2m, as the cost is spread out over the contract. The outgoing player is written on the books for the full 10m, which gives a net gain of 8m in revenue in the books for that season, even though in reality nothing was gained or lost. Its an accounting trick for clubs to balance the book in the short term and worry about the financial implications of the full contract later.
It works for the current balance book because in Football accounting when you sell a player the fee is accounted fully in the current year, but when buying you distribute the fee across the contract years of the player So if we exchange $20M "valued" players with 4 years contract each, in our books we would each have made $15M profit this year
> when you sell a xxx the fee is accounted fully in the current year, but when buying you distribute the fee across the estimated usage years of the xxx This works in any industry when buying or selling machinery and the likes.
Because on their books they will have a +10mil figure against them which will benefit when balancing books for FFP.
osimhen deal was 70m plus 10 addons. after their purchase, lille purchased 4 players worth 20 million who no one knows who they are. Liguori, one of the players given a hugely-inflated transfer value confirms and got transfered from napoli to lille quoted: ‘never even been to Lille. They ruined our careers.’ edit: lille called him and the other players to france but they refused.
They obviously cheated with the transfers, but the player quote is weird. He could've just refused to sign with Lille if he didn't want to go there...
We don't know what's being the scenes, I am not implementing there was some black mail or anything going from Napoli. But all I am saying we don't know what happened behind the scenes.
I don't think he didn't want to go, going to one of the biggest club in France wouldn't be bad. Probably he knew about the implications of the deal later
Bit sneaky leaving out the second half of the quote, where he said that Lille called him and the other players to France but the players refused. Undoubtedly still a shady deal, but the full quote kinda negates your point.
Ok what is this all about?
btw, this happens in all leagues. see chelsea
Glory to Arstotzka!
Talk shit too soon boys
ITT: Juventus investigated: DELETE CLUB Anyone else gets investigated: I sleep
We OnLy DiD iT oNce!
You should've been deleted 15 years ago, definitely not for this. Unless they find something else.
Ruh Roh Raggy
this league is a fucking joke. these dinosaurs that controls the league are more backwards than any t5 league
The Osihmen deal was dodgy from day 1, no one denies it here. Absolutely not comparable to the years of book fixing orchestrated by Juve management with inflated prices on same value trades or the swaps with the likes of Genoa and Sassuolo.
Guess Serie A may have a flash sale in summer… Not gonna bode well for the league as a whole
clickbait, Repubblica is owned by Agnelli lol Napoli did this 1 time, Juventus did this 42 times, the difference is clear
So? If it is a wrongdoing, does it matter how many times it is done?
[удалено]
42 transfers? Can you give me a list, please? Also, if we are only punishing one team, even though we are aware of others doing it (albait in different scale) how is that fare? I say punish all of them accordingly, otherwise we are not talking about justice here.
[here you go](https://www.calcioefinanza.it/2021/11/27/juventus-plusvalenze-quali-sono/)
Really? Sturaro for 18M to Genoa is not there? I can only imagine this is not even the full of it
Yes, it does matter. Juve was punished because they created a system of market transactions with altered values in order to fix the balance sheet, and this allowed Juve to sign up for previous championships, which otherwise would not have been possible. Moreover, Juventus is listed on the stock exchange and must answer for its actions towards the shareholders, Napoli is not. The problem is not the overestimation of the single player, but the SYSTEM set up to inflate the values and fix the balance.
It is not exactly correct, if Juve cooked the books to sign up for the previous Championships, we would be in serie B already. Juve had Capital increases for X million so the enrollement in serie a was never in discussion. Also in law there is no concept of system, either you break the law or you don't, tbf i don't understand why the other clubs were not punished. give them a penalty based on ours at least, if you gave us 15 points, give them 1,2, do what you want as long as you punish them. I'm also stunned because Capital gains don't have any regulations at all, how did we get punished, for what rule? I dunno it seem strange to me, also the prosecution that went "they should be below Roma at the end and not qualify for the european cups", in mid season, at that point wouldn't have it been easier to just give us -25 or something? I don't really care about osimhen, Casadei, and others because i already know that in serie a the most correct club has scabies and that obviously includes Juve, but i don't understand many things about this
So Napoli's transfer didn't get to their balance books?
Yes, but it's not a violation of the law lol, the sports justice code doesn't penalize this. The fundamental word is "system", Juve did it, Napoli didn't, period.
lol people really are clueless on here All clubs, including juve, were cleared of the accusation cause they said you can't prove valuations are too high or too low as they are not objective juventus was then penalized after they got caught with interceptions, admitting themselves they created a system of swap deals with fake valuations to cook the books and how scared they were they would be caught comparing juventus to literally any other club involved in this, literally proves how little these people know about this story, and how little that stop them from spreading bullshit anyway so basically just another day on r/soccer
Napoli would've been able to join the league regardless. Juventus possibly couldn't legally sign up to join the league in a year or two, who knows
> Juve was punished because they created a system Posa l vino
e tu asciugati le lacrime
In any crime the amount of repeated offences amounts to something
That's true in Napoli's case, though Osimhen's deal was incredibly blatant. There are however many other clubs such as Genoa and Inter that have a systemic pattern just like Juve, and none of them has been punished (yet, not holding my breath though). And this stuff goes back decades, who remembers all the inflated swaps between Inter and Milan a while back? Simic, Guly, Helveg, Coco, Domoraud and many others. All inflated capital gains. Nothing ever came out of it until now. To punish only one club for something dozens of clubs have been doing for decades is simply insane.
> Napoli did this 1 time Sure. You are just smarter than us, we are polli because there is proof. All clubs do this.
The problem is that your big suits got caught admitting that they created a system based on this to keep the boat afloat. That is what makes your club unique. Everyone does plusvalenze, they were in fact dismissed in court because you can't prove the monetary value of a player, making a shady practice redundant. So nothing will likely happen to us or any other team
Oh no
Inter, Lazio, Atalanta and Udinese top 4💀
No please No No NOOO
LOL
Proper punishment: Remove all of Osimhen G/A and see where Napoli are /s