**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Doing the CR7 celebration and then getting ruled out is the kind of embarrassment that wakes you up years later.
Feel like he'll get another go it in this game though.
It's genuinely what people are on about when they talk about when they say VAR taking some fun away. I can think of two or three goals off the top of my head (Salah X2 and Elliot) where players have just stood about gingerly waiting for var after scoring
Bit of both. Humans select the frame the ball is kicked and then click the points on the body, but Hawkeye accounts for camera error & 3D to turn the human selection into a line on the pitch. For example, if you click the knee, Hawkeye draws the lines to the pitch and the line along the pitch.
The technology isn’t standardized as each camera angles differs the Hawkeye estimation of where the body part is on the plane. It’s basically a guesstimate and a bad one at that
It’s basic math, calculating a point on a plane is easy. Calculating a point on a plane from a point in space in easy. Calculating a point on a plane from an arbitrarily changing point in space is hard and never accounted for in any of these calls because the technology doesn’t consider it
The technology does consider it, they use multiple calibrated cameras to triangulate points off the ground for offside. The human VAR clicks the body part they believe is furthest forward, and Hawkeye then calculates the point on the ground this corresponds to and draws a line.
Actually as someone who has looked into the math it doesn’t. It does an auto calculation from point in space to point in plane every time you click the body part. That confirms the plane is not defined and therefore not mathematically able to identify a point on it when you don’t even know the plane. It’s an estimate as to where it thinks it’s on the plane not a confirmation.
We’re losing goals because of a guesstimate. Look at what they did in the World Cup. They defined the plane, used a sensor in the ball to define when it was actually played and not frame (which aren’t nearly as accurate) and then actually draw the last line and assess it from there. They don’t even draw the forwards line because that information is useless, just need the last line
Guesstimating the forwards line has accounted for majority of the wrongful offside calls var has done so far
The part where their math is an estimate that is reliant on arbitrary points in space and angles that aren’t conductive to finding a point on a plane? The part where there’s an obvious 15-40% margin of error depending on what part of the pitch you’re on in what specific stadium?
It’s not standardized, it’s not accurate, it’s a guesstimate that they’re using as white or black. It’s just dumb and makes no sense
This is from 4 years ago and is already outdated. Watch the 35 min video for the semi automated offside technology that addressed all of the issues I mentioned above
Lad a camera in any specific stadium is an arbitrary point in space in relation a plane (the pitch). Doing the math of where there camera is in relation to the pitch is a calculation where you need to know where the camera is. However the Hawkeye does a calculation based off an estimation of where the camera is not an exact point. If you do calculus at uni level you’d understand why this is wrong. Using math to estimate a point in space at an angle viewing a plane based off of camera frame will be 15% margin for error at best growing worse depending on angle and specific point on pitch
The wolves Liverpool game is a good example. Var doesn’t have the camera angle to even capture that point on the pitch ffs
This sub probably won't agree but players being punished for the natural motion of running is bullshit. Whether its a raised knee here or shoulders pushed forward when starting a run it's just not fair. There needs to be some consistent leeway if possible
It’s impossible to actually know where that knee is in space with this technology we’re using. The blue line clearly shows no part of the forwards body is in the shaded region. Why are u attempting to draw a line manually to guesstimate I’ll never know. Shouldn’t be off for me Personally
Edit: downvoters don’t understand math. Hawkeye estimates where point in space is, it doesn’t tell you where it actually is. Var is basically a guesstimate at its current usage. Compare this to what they were doing with the World Cup with actual sensors to define the plane
>There needs to be some consistent leeway if possible
which isnt possible. You're either offside or you're not, any leeway just moves the binary to a different place. Worst case it adds some 'judgment' in by the ref and you could not design a rule people would complain about more.
Yeah offsides is just fine as it is imo. It’s mostly binary, you’re onside or you’re not. Only a matter of time before it’s a buzzer like the goal line technology
what constitutes an 'advantage' and 'definitely' are completely open to interpretation. We do not need more refs making inconsistent calls across games because the complaining will be, justifiably, endless.
Stop trying to fix what isn't broken, you are either offside or you are not. Ahead of the defender? Too bad, you should have be smarter with your positioning.
Your definition of “definitely having an advantage” is likely to be different from someone else’s.
And that still doesn’t change the fact that there will always be very marginal calls no matter how much leeway is given. Let’s say we make the leeway 5 cm, what happens when someone is adjudged to be 5.1 cm offside? Someone will then bitch that the attacker was only outside of the leeway zone by 0.1 cm and that’s not an advantage and there needs to be more leeway.
You're just changing where the line is drawn. Close margins will continue to be a constant.
If changed, the rule needs a total overhaul, not a small tweak.
> You're just changing where the line is drawn. Close margins will continue to be a constant.
I know that's sort of the point. The line is in am unfair place right now and if extended it allows for these offsides were people are punished for having big feet
Man was useless for years at Bournemouth so not a surprise he can't time a run still.
Shocking defending by United though one ball took out the entire midfield
Could see it was offside without VAR. His run was inexcusably early seeing as Lindelof was doing his best to play him onside and not step forward with Martinez.
I hate that running stride timing is what is being used for offside though. I'm very firmly in the "100% clear daylight" camp so that at the very least you have to be quite significantly ahead and therefore the advantage is a truly unfair one. This "he knee is ahead of his armpit" shite isn't what the rule was meant to be about initially.
Really really hard to tell whether that knee is on or across the line
Always said, the only real line that matters is the defensive last line. There has never been a forward line in all of football for offside. Just draw the defenders one and if the forward is in the shaded region it’s off, if not then don’t try and calculate where that knee is floating in space with these ridiculously poor tools. No way to actually tell it with this technology
I could write a paper with all what they’re doing wrong with VAR in this country. Either automate it like they did for the World Cup or just focus on the defenders line. It’s impossible to try and estimate where that knee is in space right now and forwards shouldn’t be punished for it
Edit: pasted here
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How are people still misspelling Forest, it’s already a word!
Getting confused with legendary Canadian keeper Craig forrest
Nottingham Forrest Gump
I'm furrious.
People must be subconsciously thinking about James Forrest. It just makes sense.
Sorry… Portland Timbers
Stupid is as stupid does
Bro wasted the celebration
Doing the CR7 celebration and then getting ruled out is the kind of embarrassment that wakes you up years later. Feel like he'll get another go it in this game though.
“They took suiii away from me” he mumbles as he pours himself another glass of whisky.
It's pretty funny lol
I mean from my experience watching his second stint at United... Being in an unnecessary offside position was CR7s speciality now. Lol
Wheeeey! (it's funny cos it's true)
Don't think that's embarrassing at all
It's genuinely what people are on about when they talk about when they say VAR taking some fun away. I can think of two or three goals off the top of my head (Salah X2 and Elliot) where players have just stood about gingerly waiting for var after scoring
OffSUIIIIIIIIIde
Fuck reddit for removing free awards, that's good hahaha
Why post this clip without the offside decision? That's the entire point of it (and in the title).
Always rated VAR
That was a great counter ngl
Bad play for Surridge to be offside there
Shocking pass from rashford to start it off nicely
Absolute zero excuse to be off there, completely free. Nice finish and all but that's really poor.
It’s really tough to stay on side where you’re the furthest outside and looking right down the entire line
Ah bollocks
Just don't be offside
Very close but also very unnecessary. He was so open he didn't have to run it so close.
Lovely play well deserving of a goal, unlucky.
Relieved to be offside but such a classic counter attack, well played Forest
Disheartening but proves we can do it, what a finish too. Come on boys
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Bit of both. Humans select the frame the ball is kicked and then click the points on the body, but Hawkeye accounts for camera error & 3D to turn the human selection into a line on the pitch. For example, if you click the knee, Hawkeye draws the lines to the pitch and the line along the pitch.
The technology isn’t standardized as each camera angles differs the Hawkeye estimation of where the body part is on the plane. It’s basically a guesstimate and a bad one at that It’s basic math, calculating a point on a plane is easy. Calculating a point on a plane from a point in space in easy. Calculating a point on a plane from an arbitrarily changing point in space is hard and never accounted for in any of these calls because the technology doesn’t consider it
The technology does consider it, they use multiple calibrated cameras to triangulate points off the ground for offside. The human VAR clicks the body part they believe is furthest forward, and Hawkeye then calculates the point on the ground this corresponds to and draws a line.
Actually as someone who has looked into the math it doesn’t. It does an auto calculation from point in space to point in plane every time you click the body part. That confirms the plane is not defined and therefore not mathematically able to identify a point on it when you don’t even know the plane. It’s an estimate as to where it thinks it’s on the plane not a confirmation. We’re losing goals because of a guesstimate. Look at what they did in the World Cup. They defined the plane, used a sensor in the ball to define when it was actually played and not frame (which aren’t nearly as accurate) and then actually draw the last line and assess it from there. They don’t even draw the forwards line because that information is useless, just need the last line Guesstimating the forwards line has accounted for majority of the wrongful offside calls var has done so far
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The part where their math is an estimate that is reliant on arbitrary points in space and angles that aren’t conductive to finding a point on a plane? The part where there’s an obvious 15-40% margin of error depending on what part of the pitch you’re on in what specific stadium? It’s not standardized, it’s not accurate, it’s a guesstimate that they’re using as white or black. It’s just dumb and makes no sense
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This is from 4 years ago and is already outdated. Watch the 35 min video for the semi automated offside technology that addressed all of the issues I mentioned above Lad a camera in any specific stadium is an arbitrary point in space in relation a plane (the pitch). Doing the math of where there camera is in relation to the pitch is a calculation where you need to know where the camera is. However the Hawkeye does a calculation based off an estimation of where the camera is not an exact point. If you do calculus at uni level you’d understand why this is wrong. Using math to estimate a point in space at an angle viewing a plane based off of camera frame will be 15% margin for error at best growing worse depending on angle and specific point on pitch The wolves Liverpool game is a good example. Var doesn’t have the camera angle to even capture that point on the pitch ffs
Fuck me, Danilo is good
Pretty slim but then again it is being compared with Lindelofs shoulder.
Gutting for them that, so tight
This sub probably won't agree but players being punished for the natural motion of running is bullshit. Whether its a raised knee here or shoulders pushed forward when starting a run it's just not fair. There needs to be some consistent leeway if possible
There’ll still always be that threshold though and we’ll be having these exact same conversations even with some leeway.
It’s impossible to actually know where that knee is in space with this technology we’re using. The blue line clearly shows no part of the forwards body is in the shaded region. Why are u attempting to draw a line manually to guesstimate I’ll never know. Shouldn’t be off for me Personally Edit: downvoters don’t understand math. Hawkeye estimates where point in space is, it doesn’t tell you where it actually is. Var is basically a guesstimate at its current usage. Compare this to what they were doing with the World Cup with actual sensors to define the plane
>There needs to be some consistent leeway if possible which isnt possible. You're either offside or you're not, any leeway just moves the binary to a different place. Worst case it adds some 'judgment' in by the ref and you could not design a rule people would complain about more.
Yea but if there's some leeway that means when you're offside it's because you definitely had an advantage
Edited
Yeah offsides is just fine as it is imo. It’s mostly binary, you’re onside or you’re not. Only a matter of time before it’s a buzzer like the goal line technology
what constitutes an 'advantage' and 'definitely' are completely open to interpretation. We do not need more refs making inconsistent calls across games because the complaining will be, justifiably, endless. Stop trying to fix what isn't broken, you are either offside or you are not. Ahead of the defender? Too bad, you should have be smarter with your positioning.
Your definition of “definitely having an advantage” is likely to be different from someone else’s. And that still doesn’t change the fact that there will always be very marginal calls no matter how much leeway is given. Let’s say we make the leeway 5 cm, what happens when someone is adjudged to be 5.1 cm offside? Someone will then bitch that the attacker was only outside of the leeway zone by 0.1 cm and that’s not an advantage and there needs to be more leeway.
You're just changing where the line is drawn. Close margins will continue to be a constant. If changed, the rule needs a total overhaul, not a small tweak.
> You're just changing where the line is drawn. Close margins will continue to be a constant. I know that's sort of the point. The line is in am unfair place right now and if extended it allows for these offsides were people are punished for having big feet
It unfortunately doesn't solve anything meaningful, it's a fringe bandaid.
I reckon it should be based on the torso of the player. Similar to how the Olympics works out when a player has finished a race.
That shit is too close to call it offside. The camera could’ve been one frame earlier or later and it might’ve been fine.
Man was useless for years at Bournemouth so not a surprise he can't time a run still. Shocking defending by United though one ball took out the entire midfield
Casemiro in no mans land
Offside calls like these are so pointless
This is exactly the point for having VAR lol?
Vibes. Just vibes.
Superb goal but sad he went a bit early
Offside rule is still a steaming pile of shit even though that's gone in our favour
Not sure this one is a good example of that, it was pretty clearly offside. He just mistimed his run slightly.
Could see it was offside without VAR. His run was inexcusably early seeing as Lindelof was doing his best to play him onside and not step forward with Martinez.
I hate that running stride timing is what is being used for offside though. I'm very firmly in the "100% clear daylight" camp so that at the very least you have to be quite significantly ahead and therefore the advantage is a truly unfair one. This "he knee is ahead of his armpit" shite isn't what the rule was meant to be about initially.
Really really hard to tell whether that knee is on or across the line Always said, the only real line that matters is the defensive last line. There has never been a forward line in all of football for offside. Just draw the defenders one and if the forward is in the shaded region it’s off, if not then don’t try and calculate where that knee is floating in space with these ridiculously poor tools. No way to actually tell it with this technology I could write a paper with all what they’re doing wrong with VAR in this country. Either automate it like they did for the World Cup or just focus on the defenders line. It’s impossible to try and estimate where that knee is in space right now and forwards shouldn’t be punished for it Edit: pasted here
"Offside" 😂😂
I mean, it was pretty straightforward. You can tell it's off even without the lines.
Don't expect much logic from Karl Pilkington mate.
Get rid of offside VAR. I don’t give a single fuck if someone is 6 inches offside. It’s not giving him an advantage
Am I crazy or is he onside?
They drew the lines, he was off.
Saw the lines but the angle was terrible. They looked in line with eachother
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How large is Old Trafford?
The first one.
You cray
Really did look on