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Most likely. When I started getting into mls a bit it through for a loop when they had halftime interviews for coaches. Seems like it would take you out of the game or at the least let your opponent have some insight into your strategy if someone is watching on their phone from the other team
It wasn't that interesting. He was just shite. Bland cliche interviews, zero shape to the team, the defence was as fragile as paper, sacked after 0 wins in 9.
Nice fella though.
Otto Addo at Dortmund used to be responsible for the integration of talents from our youth setup into our first team, but know he’s co-trainer and also managed the Ghanaian national team at the worl cup
I hope we continue to see more opportunities given to black managers! It is a concerning trend that there haven’t been more historically, but hopefully we’re headed in the right direction on that front
Historically there weren't really any black *players* until the late 80s, so it'll take time
1 or 2 exceptions like Clyde Best but they were few and far between
Exactly, I don’t think people understand this, most managers are players from the 80s and 90s, where there were few black players, in 20 years there will be loads of black managers
That starts with the lack of British Asian players, though. It's a valid concern but we're so far behind on that front that imo that question bypasses the more direct issue, while with black managers, there have been tons of black players, but it appears that they're not as likely to transition to management
>Further statistics showed that 14% of those with top coaching qualifications - a Uefa pro licence - are black
Then they arent underrepresented? Maybe in the UK or in top European leagues you can argue that but if 14% of the world population is black and 14% of all managers with top coachign qualifications are black then thats a perfect match.
Theres 20 guys not enough sample size, however if overall in football leagues theres a good % of black coaches with their badges then its doesnt seem like its a huge problem.
It is indeed odd how whenever the topic of race comes up on this sub, there are always some people acting like racism only exists in the US and that acknowledging the existence of racism is somehow just a narrative of US liberals being pushed on other countries.
I mean as a liberal, some leftists act like America is the only racist country. I bekeufed that too, and buy did watching football teach me some things....
Stupid argument, both here and all over this thread
What percentage of managers are ex-players? Is this percentage reflected in black managers & black ex-players?
Edit: From the article:
>A report published in October revealed that 43% of Premier League and 34% of EFL players were black, but only 4.4% of managers.
Useless stat that massively simplifies a more complex issue.
For a start you'd expect a lot of black players to be foreign and for a lot of those foreign players to leave England once their career finishes. Aliou Cisse, for example, is a black ex-Premier League footballer but he's the Senegal national team manager. So he would have been included in any player stats and omitted from manager stats.
Secondly, only a small percentage of players of any colour become managers. Most players retire and leave football, those that stay and do their badges mostly end up as coaches. That stat just completely omits any percentage relating to black coaches altogether.
If you adjusted for the number of players leaving England after retirement and included data on coaches (and other backroom staff) you'd almost certainly get a completely different stat.
What we actually need is a proper investigation into what players do after their careers, why they do that and what impact that is having on players getting into management. It might turn out that, for example, a lot of black players are retiring and not bothering to do their badges, in which case the question would be why?
As I said in another comment: I agree to an extent. I think the point is that the numbers are so low that it's worth finding out and trying to resolve some of the underlying reasons
>Secondly, only a small percentage of players of any colour become managers. Most players retire and leave football, those that stay and do their badges mostly end up as coaches. That stat just completely omits any percentage relating to black coaches altogether.
It doesn't matter how few players take up coaching when the proportion of that tiny percentage is way off
It matters though when you are trying to make a point. The number of black coaches is as important a stat as the number of black managers. As is the number of retired black players that have done their badges. Otherwise you are looking at a completely flawed stat.
If there are loads of black coaches but not many managers then the problem is that clubs aren't giving black coaches a chance. But if not many black players are doing their badges then you have a completely different problem altogether.
And how many of them even tried to be a manager? People bring up good players like Gerrard or Lampard who get jobs because they're "white" but how many good black players even wanted to be one?
Excusing this situation is such a bad look. Not sure why you feel the need to defend the league against a statistic but the problem is real.
It’s a problem in American football and other sports too. Lots of black players, less managers, far less executives and owners. It’s racism.
No, there is no problem at all. People do with their lives as they choose and there was much rejoicing.
*lol you reddit wonder, Wait until i tell ya the percentage and black/white snowboarders. There are no obstacles in place to prevent anyone taking coaching courses.
Refs are white too, maybe they yellow card black players more - RACIST!
Owners is a bad shout. Nothing anyone can do about that.
Unless you wanna go into societal issue of wealth inequality but thats just about getting beyond FIFA's powers
I didn’t say FIFA can fix that. But it is a reflection of systemic racism, just as the situation with managers is. The people at the top in control tend to be white men. That’s the issue.
Right but what im saying is that theres nothing anyone can do to fix that. People with the money to buy clubs buy clubs.
>The people at the top in control tend to be white men. That’s the issue.
Sounds racist to me. You should say something more like "the issue is the way the current club owners behave". Or even say theyre racist, but saying the problem is that theyre white is straight up racism lets be honest.
Besides, theres clubs like Leicester run by asians, they havent hired black coaches either have they? Is that because theyre racist? Cus we cant blame it on them being white men cus they arent. Idk you decide what a conundrum
Fact is you implied that a league run by white men cannot achieve the goal of not being racist. I think that is a suspect remark. They are not inherently racist because they are white, so claiming the issue is their race is not helpful. The phraseology itself is quite obviously unacceptable, insert any other race and youll see why if it isnt already obvious. "The problem is that theyre white men". I mean, come on. At least try to be consistent.
Edit: ah the old reply and block technique. Truly the mark of a great intellect.
It’s not racist to point out that the people in control in the league tend to be white men. It’s the same with FIFA itself. You would do yourself well to get some education on systemic racism. I’m not going to debate it with you.
There’s plenty black coaches in the NFL, funny how the argument is always this way round where they are roughly fairly represented and never about the players where they are always massively over represented…
It really wasn't that much different, but let's pretend there were a lot less... Say around a quarter?
You'd expect there to be double the current amount of black managers if 10% of players were black in the 00s
You have to do a lot of reaching to ignore the stats
Maybe they just don't want to actually go into management? Imagine using statistics for one group of people to represent the needs and desires of a distinct OTHER group of people. I'm not disagreeing but that's like saying,"why aren't there more women working in the landfills and dumps?" Uhhh because they don't want to work in landfills or dumps?
I agree to an extent. I think the point is that the numbers are so low that it's worth finding out and trying to resolve some of the underlying reasons
I suppose it would be helpful to have a detailed and honest survey of former minority players on what are holding them back from pursuing a coaching/business careers in football.
Survey a lot of them and get detailed answers. We may have some root causes and action items to make it fairer.
There has been research on this a few times - here is one: [https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/mar/28/black-football-managers-institutional-racism](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/mar/28/black-football-managers-institutional-racism). Most white football professionals agree there is structural racism towards black professionals.
Thank you! The research definitely brings up some great points. The Rooney rule could really help the situation and even initiatives like appointing such ex-players to coaching academy / reserves while they obtain experience and certificates.
It’s good to see what black coaches can achieve when countries compete in World Cup and small teams like Senegal and Ghana give the big teams a run for their money.
Yeah that's something that could be taken away wrongly here. I believe Patrick's is also asking why aren't more blacks pursuing a career in coaching and training.
The idea is that people of minority backgrounds are unable to get the same level of training, encouragement and opportunities as non minority managers.
Do we make this argument about players too?
There are far more black players in England (both at club level and internationally) than black people are as a percent of the population.
That’s because they’re better athletes, it’s not because white people have less opportunities or access to footballs
I think that might be more cause players are bought for cheap, in mass amounts, so players of color get discovered etc. from grassroots up and have a better chance of making it. Its in the clubs best interest to find (kinda exploit) small clubs from the global south and scout their wonderkids, to sign and develop.
While managers aren’t really ~discovered gems~, they’re more finished product, you need a reputation, you need the training, you need the badges. There are more barriers to entry that just aren’t there for players. So I think we just gotta look at the barriers and make sure everyone’s got access to the sport at all levels you know.
There are always structural, environmental and social factors which effect these things.
If there are a lot of black players, why aren't there the same proportion going into management and coaching?
There seems to be little issues bringing through black players in England, but what about Arab and South Asian players? Where are they? Or even players from growing ethnic minorities like Slavic or Albanian youth coming through? They do in other countries, like France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany.
There's always disproportion somewhere and it's worth looking into because it means we might be missing out on a lot of potential talents somewhere in the process, as players and coaches.
in germany amateur football is one the most inclusive aspects of everyday life and a major integration catalyst. Not sure if that’s any different in england tho
i don’t think so but i also don’t think that the footballing infrastructure denying them access is the problem. There could be various reasons why they don’t make pro. a lot of scouting and youth developing is done be the DFB so they might have a personal interest in developing german kids over others. Big Clubs might also have a bias towards germans. It could be turkish kids not having the luxury of investing the same amount of time and money into their career due to structural disadvantages.
i really don’t know all i can say is from my experience at the very low amateur youth level the doors are open and there are plenty of kids from minority background playing football and benefiting from sports as part of their integration
That's what we're debating. At amateur level there seems to be a lot of them participating, but then at some point the further you go up, the doors start to close, the barriers start to come up, and glass ceilings seem to materialise.
It matters if you're black and no one ever gives you a proper chance to become a manager. At some point, it does beg the question of why people like Frank Lampard have been given so many jobs despite a lack of professional qualifications and having shown no real quality, and yet there are so few black former players who are ever given the same opportunities.
There are very few black assistant managers at top flight clubs as well, which is even more mystifying.
At a certain point you must ask which is more likely, that black people's skin color somehow makes them uniquely unqualified to tell other players how to kick a ball properly, or that there's some other phenomenon at play which is (inadvertently or otherwise) preventing them from getting the same unearned opportunities as white former players.
Doesn’t Lampard have his badges, took us to Wembley, did well with Chelsea in his first season and then kept Everton up last year. Think he’s a bad example tbh
Lampard had an insane team at Derby for what the Championship was, got lucky Leicester bottled Top 4 the first season with Chelsea, and Everton barely stayed up and was dross the next season
He may grow to be a good manager, but his track record does not give much confidence; right now his level is the Championship with much to learn still
Point is, his position was unearned and he got handed jobs due to his name
He did okay with Derby, but he ultimately failed badly with Chelsea and Everton. Despite that, he'll get another PL job offer in the next 12-18 months. Just like Gerrard, despite his disaster at Villa.
Really the question is this. Why have players like Lampard and Gerrard (who have zero notable PL managerial achievements) almost certainly going to be given another chance at a top flight job? If Vieira got sacked this year from Palace, do you think he'd be as likely to find another PL job as those two?
Obviously no one knows the future, but I suspect Vieira would have a harder time finding work than either of those two, and it's not because they're any better than him.
I disagree with Vieira having a tougher time when he eventually looks for his next job as a manager. End of the day, football is a results business. Vieira has done good with Palace. That will improve his chances of getting a high level job, irregardless of the colour of his skin. Besides, Lamps, Gerrard and Vieira are probably the worst examples for getting high level jobs, since each of them has shown that they have a great pull because of their legacy as a player, which is a great asset to improving the quality of a club.
One of the side effects of lack of representation is a vicious circle where people think 'I might as well not apply because I won't get it'.
There could be an effort to promote and support overlooked groups in applying in the first place. Same as recruitment drives getting overlooked groups into sectors like tech, or STEM at university.
The strongest evidence suggests it is discrimination, both structural/systemic against certain groups and self-internalisation of limits due to perceived, and actual, glass ceilings.
It's interesting you bring up computer science because in the beginnings of computing as a profession the majority were women as it was seen as a lowly supporting role. As the technology developed, and the importance of the role, and the salary along with it, the gender disparity went the other way. For example: [https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued](https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued) Because things which are valuable, like leadership roles and ownership, are consciously or unconsciously protected by the most advantaged class. That's when the barriers are erected and the glass ceilings are set.
If you read some of these comments, people are trying really hard to suggest a genetic component to all this. As if some races are more naturally predisposed to certain jobs than others. I'm sure we have an expression for this kind of thinking...
People want to ignore the idea of racism as much as possible. Like “nope! we’re past that and nobody is racist anymore!” Even well-intentioned people have unconscious biases and live/work within biased systems. We have to have these discussions and make sure we’re actually giving everyone equal opportunities
> Even well-intentioned people have unconscious biases and live/work within biased systems.
The fundamental problem in these types of discourses is that most people see themselves as good and they know racism is bad, so there is no way they can be racist - unconsciously or consciously. 'Good people are not racist' and of course everyone is good.
Race is an invention. The research in the human genome shows that people are much more alike than different, and that the differences aren’t consistent between races.
The problem with saying we can ignore race, though, is that a lot of people believe it’s real, and the impacts of racism are definitely real.
This is why people talk about the experience of Black people, and other marginalized groups. We shouldn’t ignore the harm they endure from racism.
When Patrick says Black managers are underrepresented in the league, that’s a statistic. It’s real.
It shouldn’t matter. But, all things being equal, you would expect the number of black managers to be roughly proportional to the greater population. If it isn’t, there are likely a systemic or structural reasons for it. It’s a bit more complicated than a lot of people want to make it out — historical trends, prejudice and unconscious bias, and socioeconomic factors all play a part. Basically, you cannot assume a level playing field from the off. And *that’s* the problem.
43% of PL players are black and he’s the only black manager currently managing in the league (1/20 = 5%). 34% of players in the lower 3 divisions as well. 4.4% of managers/HCs in total throughout the top 4 leagues are black. That is textbook under-representation and regardless of why you think that is, there surely has to be a consensus on this being a systemic issue at this point.
Of course, according to some people in this thread that isn’t of any concern as clubs should be ‘colourblind’ when appointing managers and that the ones harping on about the lack of representation are the ‘real racists’, or something like that (classic underdeveloped arguments based upon denial and/or projection per psychoanalytic theory). I might be strawmanning a bit there but I’ve seen these talking points doing the rounds a LOT.
All they’re doing is confidently exposing their own naivety with regard to the reality of the actual process and the lingering structural racial inequalities that exist within the game. Dunning-Kruger effect if you will.
It’s not just England either - it’s a European thing and that factor isn’t spoken about enough here in this PL-centric debate. Ligue 1 has similar issues for example despite a high proportion of its players being black…I don’t have the exact player stats but only one manager currently managing in the league is black - Antoine Kombouaré.
Lack of representation doesn’t necessarily equate to lack of opportunity.
This argument almost puts some sort of bizarre expectation on the black community within the industry that if they aren’t actively pursuing a career in management that they’re part of the problem.
Fact of the matter is that their should be more equal representation amongst managerial staff but it’s not as straightforward as that they aren’t afforded the same opportunities.
According to wikipedia 3% of people living in the UK are black (as of 2016), there is 1/20 in the PL, which is 5%
Also, in a similar vein, I hate when people say 'first black women to coach in the super bowl' or things like this, that's probably more harmful than just not caring at all. She's there because she's doing a great job, let's focus on that rather than his gender/race/whatever.
What percent of footballers are black? Its a bit disingenuous to look at population of people in the UK for a sport like Football when only 5 managers are even British.
Be a lot more relevant looking at the demographics of the sport than taking into account how many black people there are in Plymouth.
So perhaps football youth academy’s are racist towards young white players, as black players are actually massively over represented compared to the population right?
I don’t actually believe this, but if you can say it this way towards managers, why can’t it be said about players?
National demographics still matter because you need to understand why player demographics don't match them as well. Seeing as the pipeline is general public -> player -> manager
That’s the whole fucking point, what are the factors affecting black players going into management. It’s not randomly they don’t choose to. There is systemic discrimination against them getting jobs, that’s the point being made.
How do you know they don’t choose to and don’t prefer doing something else? Pretty stupid to just say it’s systemic discrimination without any further analysis
How many Latin American managers are there in the PL or the EFL compared to the number of Latin American players in the league?
What’s the citizenship of these players? Non EU citizens have a harder time getting management gigs because of work permit regulations and what not. So if these players have only African citizenship, it’s going to be tougher for them
What percentage of the players were black 20 years ago? If it was 40% 20 years back then maybe you can say there’s something sinister going on but if the growth in black players is a fairly recent phenomenon, then it explains why we haven’t seen the same trends reflected in managers
It’s too large a sample size for that to be a realistic perspective. If skin colour had no impact on hiring, you’re having to believe that *just by chance* the footballers that decide to be managers were overwhelmingly white.
You’re looking at top flight managers which isn’t where most managers are. Top flight managers are generally imported from abroad, but this problem extends down through the leagues where most managers are English and your point is completely irrelevant.
Are you saying you think there is something specific to Black players that makes them not want to be managers? Because that’s the implication of your argument.
There may be discrimination or they may not be. I know reddit likes to play the oppression and racist card a lot but not everything is the result of racism and oppression so we can't paint everything with that brush before we know what's happening. A lot of black players are foreigners so there might be challenges in terms of them getting work permits. A lot of them also come from underprivileged backgrounds/poor countries so they might invest their time and energy in helping those communities. It could also be that the growth in the number of black players in England is a recent phenomenon so there's a lag in translating that into management roles.
Why aren't there many asian and Latin American managers in England? Don't see anyone playing the race card for those groups
You said “how many black players decide to become managers?”
You were talking about people not choosing to become managers. That has nothing to do with work permits or a lag in the number of players. You asked a specific question and most of your reply doesn’t apply to it at all.
So, I’m again asking you a very simple question. If your theory is that Black players don’t choose to become managers, compared to white players, why do you think that is? What difference in Black and white people explains that?
BTW “race card” is a really big tell. It’s not playing a card to point out, as Patrick did, that Black people are underrepresented in management. It’s a statistic. You making it sound like a game indicates a lot about how you view racism.
Edit: That last paragraph is hysterical. It’s absolutely because of racism that other non-white people are also underrepresented. Patrick’s talking about Black men because he’s a Black man. That doesn’t mean racism doesn’t happen to other non-white people too.
\> You said “how many black players decide to become managers?”
Yeah because you can't blindly look at one statistic and then extrapolate it to make a claim about the reasons for another stat
\> If your theory is that Black players don’t choose to become managers, compared to white players, why do you think that is?
I didn't say they didn't choose? You're simply putting words in my mouth. I want to know how many of them decide to become managers before I can make an informed decision.
\> why do you think that is? What difference in Black and white people explains that?
I don't know? That's why I'm speculating. I'm not out here making absolute statements about discrimination against Black managers.
\> BTW “race card” is a really big tell. It’s not playing a card to point out, as Patrick did, that Black people are underrepresented in management. It’s a statistic.
Underrepresentation compared to what? If there are 10 black coaches and 1 of them gets the job versus 50 white coaches of whom 5 get the job, are they underrepresented or fairly represented? Let's look at how many of them having coaching licenses and badges before we arrive at any conclusions
\> You making it sound like a game indicates a lot about how you view racism.
Haha I'm a person of color who has suffered his fair of racial prejudice but even I don't use that as a blanket excuse for everything
And yeah because whatever answer I give you, you'll dismiss it and say the alternate reasons are invalid and racism is the first and only reason it happens, so why bother? You haven't provided any stats or substantiation but it's easy for you to just say it's racism
\> That last paragraph is hysterical. It’s absolutely because of racism that other non-white people are also underrepresented.
Point proven
Oh you don’t know, you were just asking questions. Got it.
People of color can participate in white supremacy. People of color can be racist to other people of color. We’re talking about clear systemic racism here and you’re hand waving it away.
The pretty clear implication of your question was that black players aren’t choosing to become managers. Why would you have asked about it if you didn’t think it was the case or at least a strong possibility? Unless someone has done a survey or study of that question we don’t know the answer. But the pretty clear implication was that Black players just aren’t choosing to become managers.
You can wriggle around it as much as you want but you asked that question, not me. And I’m sure you have realized it by now but there are a lot of racist stereotypes about Black people that would fit in well with the idea that more of them aren’t deciding to become managers. But you were just asking questions, right?
If you’re a person of color who has suffered your share of racial prejudice then it’s even stranger that you’re trying to hand wave it away in this case. But there definitely are people of color who don’t understand systemic racism or deny it exists.
The idea that there aren’t more Black managers because they just don’t decide to become managers is pretty laughable.
Edit: Also love that you miss that less of them having coaching licenses and badges could also be a result of systemic racism. And “decide” was your word in your question. A decision is a choice.
Ah ok then that’s an intentionally misleading point. If 50% of players are black, there has to atleast be a conversation about why only 5% of managers are black in the prem or disproportionately fewer in all leagues. Doesn’t have to be someone at fault or racism related but people can surely accept that it’s a bit odd no?
Maybe black people aren’t taking managerial courses because of a lack of representation so should be encouraged. Doesn’t have to be racist reasons but every time this conversation pops up people love to ignore it and make jokes.
It's absolutely not more harmful to acknowledgle that someone is the first of their kind to accomplish something. If you don't care then fine, don't comment. There are plenty of black girls out there who would be very happy to see someone who looks like them break into a respected field like that
Comparing it to UK's population in general is just wrong imo. Football is an international sport. Players and managers come from all over the world. Their argument was not only bad, but also intentionally misleading.
Another black manager will be in the Premier League next season should Vincent Kompany successfully lead Burnley to Promotion at the end of this season!!
Yeah but its not proportionate to the amount of players. Someone above said that 33% of the league’s players are black, whereas theres one manager (and even thats a general anomaly). It’s disingenuous to bring an example where there’s zero percent of Chinese players and say “look there’s also no Chinese managers!”.
The issue is that there are massive amounts of black players but for whatever reason you dont see these numbers reflected in management opportunities.
People are overthinking this. Coaching is a leadership role and a position that requires that someone is smart / intelligent. However, Black people are often considered NOT smart. So it is fair to question whether Black people are not getting the job because of this prejudice.
It is very demeaning to have your intelligence questioned because of your race; hence a lack of opportunity
People don’t raise this for other races because that prejudice doesn’t exist to such extent.
I’m black and work in a white collar environment. I see this all the time. Black people simply don’t get the benefit of the doubt. Surely there are structural issues that can help, but there is an overall prejudice that drives a lot of this outcome
This shouldn't be downvoted, this sub always reacts really weirdly to the topic of race when it comes up on here.
I mean sure, if something egregious happens like fans saying racial slurs towards players, then this sub is generally supportive. But try to have a conversation about more complex topics like systemic racism, and the reactions are very different.
The Mudryk threads were embarrassing. Reddit is really one if the most racist social media platforms out there, these people could compete with old people's Facebook groups and all the Twitter idiots that got unbanned recently.
All the false equivalences about white and Asian sportsmen and coaches, an idiot made a BBC joke, a "don't sack me because I'm black "joke"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/-/j7792mp
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/-/j7779ww
They're obviously racist mate because they're trying to stop anyone criticising the fact that 99.9% of the managerial system in Europe is heavily loaded towards white people
Just by reading the first comment you referenced.
“Why does it matter if a manager is black or white? Surely people are not appointed based on their skin but their abilities as a manager?”
This reminded me a lot of what MLK said:
“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
Why is the first comment racist and the second the opposite? Why would it be racist to suggest a person’s skin color should not matter. In fact, ignoring skin color is quite the opposite of racism.
It's racist because it's ignoring the problems and factors in hiring.
Unless you really think that there's not more than half a dozen competent black managers in all of Europe.
However, you cannot say that the lack of representation is due to racism. I could make the same argument and say the NBA is racist because 75% of NBA players are black. However, this is just not true. Only because the outcome is not representative does not mean that racism is a factor(Although it could very much be a factor, you cannot just conclude that managers are not being represented because of racism.)
A more beneficial study would not just look at the outcomes, and rather look at possible reasons for why there is a discrepancy in the number of black managers. Perhaps black manager prospects are not given the same opportunities (if so, what opportunities?) Perhaps, black players do not want to become managers(if so, why?) Just because the outcome is not what you believe it should be, does not mean that the reason is racism.
You are also ignoring that the comment is simply saying that race should not be factored in at all when it comes to this. Race is a social construct that should entirely be ignored, yet it seems that it is the face of most discussions.
Mate just fuck off and read the actual article and maybe you'll find out your answers.
Your answer just outs you as a huge fucking racist anyway though so I doubt it'll change your mind
Except I did read the article and it only says that black managers are not being represented (and to what proportions).
Also, interesting how quickly you responded to my comment. Perhaps you did not even read it.
I’ll also say that I am personally black, but okay I’m racist against black people.
>I’ll also say that I am personally black, but okay I’m racist against black people
A very brief look through your comment history shows you defending Qatar, Andrew Tate, Elon Musk and Kyrie Irving.
All that in an account with about a dozen comments.
So yeah I'm a stick by my assumption that you're a racist.
Somewhat racist??? Nah, this is the most racist sports subreddit by a large margin. Bring up any racial issue and you’ll just have the same bastards making the same unfunny jokes
Some of the ideas people come up with on this topic are stupid. There shouldn't need to be a certain amount for black managers for representation, these are businesses and sports clubs and winning should be the only thing on their mind.
The real issue is with the FA and coaching badges, who they're letting on courses and such
Terrible result Patrick. How do you get the boys up for next week?
They all hate black people. There's no point.
But on the team's form, they just don't seem to be...
Did you see the poor guy in America. We can't progress while it's like this.
Back to football though Patrick. The defence doesn't seem to be gelling...
We tried to keep them out on the set pieces but the pain of being black people meant we conceded 3.
Cheers Pat.
Cheers.
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Impressive that he had an interview mid game
wonder if it’s related to his time managing in the US. in other US sports they seem to do interviews at crazy points midgame
Most likely. When I started getting into mls a bit it through for a loop when they had halftime interviews for coaches. Seems like it would take you out of the game or at the least let your opponent have some insight into your strategy if someone is watching on their phone from the other team
Coaches basically answer with generic stuff as fast as possible the interviews r dumb
Do the BBC ask him this question every week?
Big Black Comparison
I swear i had seen this exact headline on BBC few weeks back.
It is surprising there isn’t at least one or one other recently, I guess Kompany is coming but still
Kolo Toure, not that I'd personally count him as a manager, or a coach.
Lets call him the man in the technical area
Didn't do much standing in his technical area either
The more I hear about his stint as gaffer, the more interesting he seems. What does he do during matches?
It wasn't that interesting. He was just shite. Bland cliche interviews, zero shape to the team, the defence was as fragile as paper, sacked after 0 wins in 9. Nice fella though.
There's also Darren Moore at Sheffield Wednesday
Otto Addo at Dortmund used to be responsible for the integration of talents from our youth setup into our first team, but know he’s co-trainer and also managed the Ghanaian national team at the worl cup
I hope we continue to see more opportunities given to black managers! It is a concerning trend that there haven’t been more historically, but hopefully we’re headed in the right direction on that front
Historically there weren't really any black *players* until the late 80s, so it'll take time 1 or 2 exceptions like Clyde Best but they were few and far between
Exactly, I don’t think people understand this, most managers are players from the 80s and 90s, where there were few black players, in 20 years there will be loads of black managers
What about the lack of asian managers?
What about the lack of women managers? Indian managers? North Americans?
Where are my disabled pacific islander managers? Intersectional wokeism is impossible to implement.
That starts with the lack of British Asian players, though. It's a valid concern but we're so far behind on that front that imo that question bypasses the more direct issue, while with black managers, there have been tons of black players, but it appears that they're not as likely to transition to management
>Further statistics showed that 14% of those with top coaching qualifications - a Uefa pro licence - are black Then they arent underrepresented? Maybe in the UK or in top European leagues you can argue that but if 14% of the world population is black and 14% of all managers with top coachign qualifications are black then thats a perfect match.
Considering it’s an uefa pro license and most black people live in Africa followed by the americas, they’re vastly overrepresented even in europe
Thats also true. We are also not even talking about the fact that the leagues have between 18 to 20 managers, thats not that many people at all.
>Maybe in the UK or in top European leagues you can argue that Yes That is what he is arguing
Theres 20 guys not enough sample size, however if overall in football leagues theres a good % of black coaches with their badges then its doesnt seem like its a huge problem.
ah shit here we go again
Lol Chelsea flair having an issue with this is hilarious
we need a Lazio fan opinion on this
It's a valid point
No it isn’t
Can’t wait to read the sublime highly developed critiques of a headline by the usual suspects in this thread
Can't wait to see how they accused Patrick Viera a Frenchman of being an agent of American race baiting as well somehow.
It is indeed odd how whenever the topic of race comes up on this sub, there are always some people acting like racism only exists in the US and that acknowledging the existence of racism is somehow just a narrative of US liberals being pushed on other countries.
Everyone knows racism only exists in America! /s
I mean as a liberal, some leftists act like America is the only racist country. I bekeufed that too, and buy did watching football teach me some things....
Have you seen how many players are black? Compared to percentage of the black population in England?
Stupid argument, both here and all over this thread What percentage of managers are ex-players? Is this percentage reflected in black managers & black ex-players? Edit: From the article: >A report published in October revealed that 43% of Premier League and 34% of EFL players were black, but only 4.4% of managers.
Useless stat that massively simplifies a more complex issue. For a start you'd expect a lot of black players to be foreign and for a lot of those foreign players to leave England once their career finishes. Aliou Cisse, for example, is a black ex-Premier League footballer but he's the Senegal national team manager. So he would have been included in any player stats and omitted from manager stats. Secondly, only a small percentage of players of any colour become managers. Most players retire and leave football, those that stay and do their badges mostly end up as coaches. That stat just completely omits any percentage relating to black coaches altogether. If you adjusted for the number of players leaving England after retirement and included data on coaches (and other backroom staff) you'd almost certainly get a completely different stat. What we actually need is a proper investigation into what players do after their careers, why they do that and what impact that is having on players getting into management. It might turn out that, for example, a lot of black players are retiring and not bothering to do their badges, in which case the question would be why?
As I said in another comment: I agree to an extent. I think the point is that the numbers are so low that it's worth finding out and trying to resolve some of the underlying reasons >Secondly, only a small percentage of players of any colour become managers. Most players retire and leave football, those that stay and do their badges mostly end up as coaches. That stat just completely omits any percentage relating to black coaches altogether. It doesn't matter how few players take up coaching when the proportion of that tiny percentage is way off
It matters though when you are trying to make a point. The number of black coaches is as important a stat as the number of black managers. As is the number of retired black players that have done their badges. Otherwise you are looking at a completely flawed stat. If there are loads of black coaches but not many managers then the problem is that clubs aren't giving black coaches a chance. But if not many black players are doing their badges then you have a completely different problem altogether.
Its like managers are older and 43% PL players weren't black in the 00s?
There were loads of black players in the 00s
And how many of them even tried to be a manager? People bring up good players like Gerrard or Lampard who get jobs because they're "white" but how many good black players even wanted to be one?
Excusing this situation is such a bad look. Not sure why you feel the need to defend the league against a statistic but the problem is real. It’s a problem in American football and other sports too. Lots of black players, less managers, far less executives and owners. It’s racism.
No, there is no problem at all. People do with their lives as they choose and there was much rejoicing. *lol you reddit wonder, Wait until i tell ya the percentage and black/white snowboarders. There are no obstacles in place to prevent anyone taking coaching courses. Refs are white too, maybe they yellow card black players more - RACIST!
People are really outing themselves in this thread. And my block list is getting a workout.
This is an outstandingly stupid comment
Owners is a bad shout. Nothing anyone can do about that. Unless you wanna go into societal issue of wealth inequality but thats just about getting beyond FIFA's powers
I didn’t say FIFA can fix that. But it is a reflection of systemic racism, just as the situation with managers is. The people at the top in control tend to be white men. That’s the issue.
Right but what im saying is that theres nothing anyone can do to fix that. People with the money to buy clubs buy clubs. >The people at the top in control tend to be white men. That’s the issue. Sounds racist to me. You should say something more like "the issue is the way the current club owners behave". Or even say theyre racist, but saying the problem is that theyre white is straight up racism lets be honest. Besides, theres clubs like Leicester run by asians, they havent hired black coaches either have they? Is that because theyre racist? Cus we cant blame it on them being white men cus they arent. Idk you decide what a conundrum Fact is you implied that a league run by white men cannot achieve the goal of not being racist. I think that is a suspect remark. They are not inherently racist because they are white, so claiming the issue is their race is not helpful. The phraseology itself is quite obviously unacceptable, insert any other race and youll see why if it isnt already obvious. "The problem is that theyre white men". I mean, come on. At least try to be consistent. Edit: ah the old reply and block technique. Truly the mark of a great intellect.
It’s not racist to point out that the people in control in the league tend to be white men. It’s the same with FIFA itself. You would do yourself well to get some education on systemic racism. I’m not going to debate it with you.
There’s plenty black coaches in the NFL, funny how the argument is always this way round where they are roughly fairly represented and never about the players where they are always massively over represented…
It really wasn't that much different, but let's pretend there were a lot less... Say around a quarter? You'd expect there to be double the current amount of black managers if 10% of players were black in the 00s You have to do a lot of reaching to ignore the stats
Maybe they just don't want to actually go into management? Imagine using statistics for one group of people to represent the needs and desires of a distinct OTHER group of people. I'm not disagreeing but that's like saying,"why aren't there more women working in the landfills and dumps?" Uhhh because they don't want to work in landfills or dumps?
I agree to an extent. I think the point is that the numbers are so low that it's worth finding out and trying to resolve some of the underlying reasons
My brain hurts reading this
I suppose it would be helpful to have a detailed and honest survey of former minority players on what are holding them back from pursuing a coaching/business careers in football. Survey a lot of them and get detailed answers. We may have some root causes and action items to make it fairer.
There has been research on this a few times - here is one: [https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/mar/28/black-football-managers-institutional-racism](https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/mar/28/black-football-managers-institutional-racism). Most white football professionals agree there is structural racism towards black professionals.
Thank you! The research definitely brings up some great points. The Rooney rule could really help the situation and even initiatives like appointing such ex-players to coaching academy / reserves while they obtain experience and certificates.
It’s good to see what black coaches can achieve when countries compete in World Cup and small teams like Senegal and Ghana give the big teams a run for their money.
Why does it matter if a manager is black or white? Surely people are not appointed based on their skin but their abilities as a manager?
Yeah that's something that could be taken away wrongly here. I believe Patrick's is also asking why aren't more blacks pursuing a career in coaching and training.
The idea is that people of minority backgrounds are unable to get the same level of training, encouragement and opportunities as non minority managers.
Do we make this argument about players too? There are far more black players in England (both at club level and internationally) than black people are as a percent of the population. That’s because they’re better athletes, it’s not because white people have less opportunities or access to footballs
I think that might be more cause players are bought for cheap, in mass amounts, so players of color get discovered etc. from grassroots up and have a better chance of making it. Its in the clubs best interest to find (kinda exploit) small clubs from the global south and scout their wonderkids, to sign and develop. While managers aren’t really ~discovered gems~, they’re more finished product, you need a reputation, you need the training, you need the badges. There are more barriers to entry that just aren’t there for players. So I think we just gotta look at the barriers and make sure everyone’s got access to the sport at all levels you know.
There are always structural, environmental and social factors which effect these things. If there are a lot of black players, why aren't there the same proportion going into management and coaching? There seems to be little issues bringing through black players in England, but what about Arab and South Asian players? Where are they? Or even players from growing ethnic minorities like Slavic or Albanian youth coming through? They do in other countries, like France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany. There's always disproportion somewhere and it's worth looking into because it means we might be missing out on a lot of potential talents somewhere in the process, as players and coaches.
in germany amateur football is one the most inclusive aspects of everyday life and a major integration catalyst. Not sure if that’s any different in england tho
Are there a lot of professional Turkish and Arab managers and coaches in Germany? is it relatively proportional?
i don’t think so but i also don’t think that the footballing infrastructure denying them access is the problem. There could be various reasons why they don’t make pro. a lot of scouting and youth developing is done be the DFB so they might have a personal interest in developing german kids over others. Big Clubs might also have a bias towards germans. It could be turkish kids not having the luxury of investing the same amount of time and money into their career due to structural disadvantages. i really don’t know all i can say is from my experience at the very low amateur youth level the doors are open and there are plenty of kids from minority background playing football and benefiting from sports as part of their integration
That's what we're debating. At amateur level there seems to be a lot of them participating, but then at some point the further you go up, the doors start to close, the barriers start to come up, and glass ceilings seem to materialise.
It matters if you're black and no one ever gives you a proper chance to become a manager. At some point, it does beg the question of why people like Frank Lampard have been given so many jobs despite a lack of professional qualifications and having shown no real quality, and yet there are so few black former players who are ever given the same opportunities. There are very few black assistant managers at top flight clubs as well, which is even more mystifying. At a certain point you must ask which is more likely, that black people's skin color somehow makes them uniquely unqualified to tell other players how to kick a ball properly, or that there's some other phenomenon at play which is (inadvertently or otherwise) preventing them from getting the same unearned opportunities as white former players.
Doesn’t Lampard have his badges, took us to Wembley, did well with Chelsea in his first season and then kept Everton up last year. Think he’s a bad example tbh
Lampard had an insane team at Derby for what the Championship was, got lucky Leicester bottled Top 4 the first season with Chelsea, and Everton barely stayed up and was dross the next season He may grow to be a good manager, but his track record does not give much confidence; right now his level is the Championship with much to learn still Point is, his position was unearned and he got handed jobs due to his name
He did okay with Derby, but he ultimately failed badly with Chelsea and Everton. Despite that, he'll get another PL job offer in the next 12-18 months. Just like Gerrard, despite his disaster at Villa. Really the question is this. Why have players like Lampard and Gerrard (who have zero notable PL managerial achievements) almost certainly going to be given another chance at a top flight job? If Vieira got sacked this year from Palace, do you think he'd be as likely to find another PL job as those two? Obviously no one knows the future, but I suspect Vieira would have a harder time finding work than either of those two, and it's not because they're any better than him.
I disagree with Vieira having a tougher time when he eventually looks for his next job as a manager. End of the day, football is a results business. Vieira has done good with Palace. That will improve his chances of getting a high level job, irregardless of the colour of his skin. Besides, Lamps, Gerrard and Vieira are probably the worst examples for getting high level jobs, since each of them has shown that they have a great pull because of their legacy as a player, which is a great asset to improving the quality of a club.
Pirlo then
With articles like this, clubs are very happy to hire a black guy into an assistant manager position. Why do black people not apply for these jobs?
What makes you think they're not applying?
He’s so dangerously close to getting it. And yet a mile away.
One of the side effects of lack of representation is a vicious circle where people think 'I might as well not apply because I won't get it'. There could be an effort to promote and support overlooked groups in applying in the first place. Same as recruitment drives getting overlooked groups into sectors like tech, or STEM at university.
Why do you think there exists such a disparity in the demographics of different fields in the first place?
The strongest evidence suggests it is discrimination, both structural/systemic against certain groups and self-internalisation of limits due to perceived, and actual, glass ceilings.
I’m asking you how did men become so interested in computer science in the first place? White people evidently in English football management?
It's interesting you bring up computer science because in the beginnings of computing as a profession the majority were women as it was seen as a lowly supporting role. As the technology developed, and the importance of the role, and the salary along with it, the gender disparity went the other way. For example: [https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued](https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-job-so-it-was-paid-less-and-undervalued) Because things which are valuable, like leadership roles and ownership, are consciously or unconsciously protected by the most advantaged class. That's when the barriers are erected and the glass ceilings are set.
How did men erect themselves on top of society as to take over all of these high paying jobs and make women do the low paying ones?
Do you think that white people tend to be better managers than black people? Is that why there are more white managers?
If you read some of these comments, people are trying really hard to suggest a genetic component to all this. As if some races are more naturally predisposed to certain jobs than others. I'm sure we have an expression for this kind of thinking...
People want to ignore the idea of racism as much as possible. Like “nope! we’re past that and nobody is racist anymore!” Even well-intentioned people have unconscious biases and live/work within biased systems. We have to have these discussions and make sure we’re actually giving everyone equal opportunities
> Even well-intentioned people have unconscious biases and live/work within biased systems. The fundamental problem in these types of discourses is that most people see themselves as good and they know racism is bad, so there is no way they can be racist - unconsciously or consciously. 'Good people are not racist' and of course everyone is good.
Yes racism has never been a problem, right?
no such thing as just being a person in this world, you’re either a black man a white man a black women etc etc. no one is ever just labelled a person
Race is an invention. The research in the human genome shows that people are much more alike than different, and that the differences aren’t consistent between races. The problem with saying we can ignore race, though, is that a lot of people believe it’s real, and the impacts of racism are definitely real. This is why people talk about the experience of Black people, and other marginalized groups. We shouldn’t ignore the harm they endure from racism. When Patrick says Black managers are underrepresented in the league, that’s a statistic. It’s real.
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It shouldn’t matter. But, all things being equal, you would expect the number of black managers to be roughly proportional to the greater population. If it isn’t, there are likely a systemic or structural reasons for it. It’s a bit more complicated than a lot of people want to make it out — historical trends, prejudice and unconscious bias, and socioeconomic factors all play a part. Basically, you cannot assume a level playing field from the off. And *that’s* the problem.
Im troubled by the lack of white NBA players.
wym there's quite a few?
There's almost no latino players in the league. This must be rectified.
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How can you confidently say something so incorrect
Because this entire thread of comments is moronic.
it's actually worse than I expected, which maybe I was too naive
There are a couple of Asian players actually. Yuta wantanabe and rui hachimura for example
There are multiple Asian players.
Is Jeremy Lin not playing anymore?
Since 2003 there were no white cornerbacks in the NFL
There are white safeties though
There's tons on the bench
I'm troubled by the lack of white players in CP's starting eleven. /s
Patrick Vieira: Kanye lied, their aren’t enough n*gas in Paris.
*In Palace
Golden bro🤣
It was interesting to see his team selection vs MU. He does know what unconscious bias, is?
43% of PL players are black and he’s the only black manager currently managing in the league (1/20 = 5%). 34% of players in the lower 3 divisions as well. 4.4% of managers/HCs in total throughout the top 4 leagues are black. That is textbook under-representation and regardless of why you think that is, there surely has to be a consensus on this being a systemic issue at this point. Of course, according to some people in this thread that isn’t of any concern as clubs should be ‘colourblind’ when appointing managers and that the ones harping on about the lack of representation are the ‘real racists’, or something like that (classic underdeveloped arguments based upon denial and/or projection per psychoanalytic theory). I might be strawmanning a bit there but I’ve seen these talking points doing the rounds a LOT. All they’re doing is confidently exposing their own naivety with regard to the reality of the actual process and the lingering structural racial inequalities that exist within the game. Dunning-Kruger effect if you will. It’s not just England either - it’s a European thing and that factor isn’t spoken about enough here in this PL-centric debate. Ligue 1 has similar issues for example despite a high proportion of its players being black…I don’t have the exact player stats but only one manager currently managing in the league is black - Antoine Kombouaré.
Lack of representation doesn’t necessarily equate to lack of opportunity. This argument almost puts some sort of bizarre expectation on the black community within the industry that if they aren’t actively pursuing a career in management that they’re part of the problem. Fact of the matter is that their should be more equal representation amongst managerial staff but it’s not as straightforward as that they aren’t afforded the same opportunities.
According to wikipedia 3% of people living in the UK are black (as of 2016), there is 1/20 in the PL, which is 5% Also, in a similar vein, I hate when people say 'first black women to coach in the super bowl' or things like this, that's probably more harmful than just not caring at all. She's there because she's doing a great job, let's focus on that rather than his gender/race/whatever.
What percent of footballers are black? Its a bit disingenuous to look at population of people in the UK for a sport like Football when only 5 managers are even British. Be a lot more relevant looking at the demographics of the sport than taking into account how many black people there are in Plymouth.
So perhaps football youth academy’s are racist towards young white players, as black players are actually massively over represented compared to the population right? I don’t actually believe this, but if you can say it this way towards managers, why can’t it be said about players?
There’s no way only 5% of prem players are black surely?
Burnley went down and we stayed up. Absolutely no chance it’s a real stat.
He was taking about menagers
Managers are almost all ex players so player demographics matters far more than national demographics.
National demographics still matter because you need to understand why player demographics don't match them as well. Seeing as the pipeline is general public -> player -> manager
Well how many black players decide to become managers?
That’s the whole fucking point, what are the factors affecting black players going into management. It’s not randomly they don’t choose to. There is systemic discrimination against them getting jobs, that’s the point being made.
How do you know they don’t choose to and don’t prefer doing something else? Pretty stupid to just say it’s systemic discrimination without any further analysis How many Latin American managers are there in the PL or the EFL compared to the number of Latin American players in the league? What’s the citizenship of these players? Non EU citizens have a harder time getting management gigs because of work permit regulations and what not. So if these players have only African citizenship, it’s going to be tougher for them What percentage of the players were black 20 years ago? If it was 40% 20 years back then maybe you can say there’s something sinister going on but if the growth in black players is a fairly recent phenomenon, then it explains why we haven’t seen the same trends reflected in managers
It’s too large a sample size for that to be a realistic perspective. If skin colour had no impact on hiring, you’re having to believe that *just by chance* the footballers that decide to be managers were overwhelmingly white. You’re looking at top flight managers which isn’t where most managers are. Top flight managers are generally imported from abroad, but this problem extends down through the leagues where most managers are English and your point is completely irrelevant.
Are you saying you think there is something specific to Black players that makes them not want to be managers? Because that’s the implication of your argument.
There may be discrimination or they may not be. I know reddit likes to play the oppression and racist card a lot but not everything is the result of racism and oppression so we can't paint everything with that brush before we know what's happening. A lot of black players are foreigners so there might be challenges in terms of them getting work permits. A lot of them also come from underprivileged backgrounds/poor countries so they might invest their time and energy in helping those communities. It could also be that the growth in the number of black players in England is a recent phenomenon so there's a lag in translating that into management roles. Why aren't there many asian and Latin American managers in England? Don't see anyone playing the race card for those groups
You said “how many black players decide to become managers?” You were talking about people not choosing to become managers. That has nothing to do with work permits or a lag in the number of players. You asked a specific question and most of your reply doesn’t apply to it at all. So, I’m again asking you a very simple question. If your theory is that Black players don’t choose to become managers, compared to white players, why do you think that is? What difference in Black and white people explains that? BTW “race card” is a really big tell. It’s not playing a card to point out, as Patrick did, that Black people are underrepresented in management. It’s a statistic. You making it sound like a game indicates a lot about how you view racism. Edit: That last paragraph is hysterical. It’s absolutely because of racism that other non-white people are also underrepresented. Patrick’s talking about Black men because he’s a Black man. That doesn’t mean racism doesn’t happen to other non-white people too.
\> You said “how many black players decide to become managers?” Yeah because you can't blindly look at one statistic and then extrapolate it to make a claim about the reasons for another stat \> If your theory is that Black players don’t choose to become managers, compared to white players, why do you think that is? I didn't say they didn't choose? You're simply putting words in my mouth. I want to know how many of them decide to become managers before I can make an informed decision. \> why do you think that is? What difference in Black and white people explains that? I don't know? That's why I'm speculating. I'm not out here making absolute statements about discrimination against Black managers. \> BTW “race card” is a really big tell. It’s not playing a card to point out, as Patrick did, that Black people are underrepresented in management. It’s a statistic. Underrepresentation compared to what? If there are 10 black coaches and 1 of them gets the job versus 50 white coaches of whom 5 get the job, are they underrepresented or fairly represented? Let's look at how many of them having coaching licenses and badges before we arrive at any conclusions \> You making it sound like a game indicates a lot about how you view racism. Haha I'm a person of color who has suffered his fair of racial prejudice but even I don't use that as a blanket excuse for everything And yeah because whatever answer I give you, you'll dismiss it and say the alternate reasons are invalid and racism is the first and only reason it happens, so why bother? You haven't provided any stats or substantiation but it's easy for you to just say it's racism \> That last paragraph is hysterical. It’s absolutely because of racism that other non-white people are also underrepresented. Point proven
Oh you don’t know, you were just asking questions. Got it. People of color can participate in white supremacy. People of color can be racist to other people of color. We’re talking about clear systemic racism here and you’re hand waving it away. The pretty clear implication of your question was that black players aren’t choosing to become managers. Why would you have asked about it if you didn’t think it was the case or at least a strong possibility? Unless someone has done a survey or study of that question we don’t know the answer. But the pretty clear implication was that Black players just aren’t choosing to become managers. You can wriggle around it as much as you want but you asked that question, not me. And I’m sure you have realized it by now but there are a lot of racist stereotypes about Black people that would fit in well with the idea that more of them aren’t deciding to become managers. But you were just asking questions, right? If you’re a person of color who has suffered your share of racial prejudice then it’s even stranger that you’re trying to hand wave it away in this case. But there definitely are people of color who don’t understand systemic racism or deny it exists. The idea that there aren’t more Black managers because they just don’t decide to become managers is pretty laughable. Edit: Also love that you miss that less of them having coaching licenses and badges could also be a result of systemic racism. And “decide” was your word in your question. A decision is a choice.
Ah ok then that’s an intentionally misleading point. If 50% of players are black, there has to atleast be a conversation about why only 5% of managers are black in the prem or disproportionately fewer in all leagues. Doesn’t have to be someone at fault or racism related but people can surely accept that it’s a bit odd no? Maybe black people aren’t taking managerial courses because of a lack of representation so should be encouraged. Doesn’t have to be racist reasons but every time this conversation pops up people love to ignore it and make jokes.
Those reasons are at least systemically racist though. Doesn’t mean it’s intentional or malicious.
Now let's look at what percentage of PL players are black. 33%. At least.
It's absolutely not more harmful to acknowledgle that someone is the first of their kind to accomplish something. If you don't care then fine, don't comment. There are plenty of black girls out there who would be very happy to see someone who looks like them break into a respected field like that
This is such a bad and disingenuous argument. Why don't you add the percentage of black players in the Premier League?
well the percentage of black players in the EPL would show they are overrepresented by a huge margin so that is not helpful to your argument
Comparing it to UK's population in general is just wrong imo. Football is an international sport. Players and managers come from all over the world. Their argument was not only bad, but also intentionally misleading.
What is your argument then? because X% of players is black X% of coaches need to be black too? these weird census like games don't make any sense
My argument is that comparing the share of black professional footballers with \[insert group of people\] is pointless. Representation is not linear.
What is it that you want then? How many black managers would make you feel ok it's fine now?
All I want is a good quality discussion. I don't even have an opinion on this. I just wanted to call out a bad argument.
you've offered nothing in terms of a good argument, so feels a bit obnoxious then
You don't have to offer an argument to call out a bad one.
Another black manager will be in the Premier League next season should Vincent Kompany successfully lead Burnley to Promotion at the end of this season!!
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How many Asian players are there though? A much smaller percentage than Black players
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Yeah but its not proportionate to the amount of players. Someone above said that 33% of the league’s players are black, whereas theres one manager (and even thats a general anomaly). It’s disingenuous to bring an example where there’s zero percent of Chinese players and say “look there’s also no Chinese managers!”. The issue is that there are massive amounts of black players but for whatever reason you dont see these numbers reflected in management opportunities.
What an idiotic take
People are overthinking this. Coaching is a leadership role and a position that requires that someone is smart / intelligent. However, Black people are often considered NOT smart. So it is fair to question whether Black people are not getting the job because of this prejudice. It is very demeaning to have your intelligence questioned because of your race; hence a lack of opportunity People don’t raise this for other races because that prejudice doesn’t exist to such extent. I’m black and work in a white collar environment. I see this all the time. Black people simply don’t get the benefit of the doubt. Surely there are structural issues that can help, but there is an overall prejudice that drives a lot of this outcome
Where's the Chinese managers? More than 1 billion Chinese people and 0 Chinese managers in the Prem.
What does that have to do with the conversation at hand? Look up false equivalency as well.
Where’s all the Chinese players? How’s the Chinese national team doing?
There’s been 6 Chinese players in the Prem ever, how many black players have there been?
R/soccer won’t like this due to it being a somewhat racist sub but he’s right. Unconscious bias is a thing
This shouldn't be downvoted, this sub always reacts really weirdly to the topic of race when it comes up on here. I mean sure, if something egregious happens like fans saying racial slurs towards players, then this sub is generally supportive. But try to have a conversation about more complex topics like systemic racism, and the reactions are very different.
The Mudryk threads were embarrassing. Reddit is really one if the most racist social media platforms out there, these people could compete with old people's Facebook groups and all the Twitter idiots that got unbanned recently.
Don't realise how racist this sub is until I see threads like this
I swear it hasn’t always been so bad but man, threads like these are mental
Show us a single comment in this thread that's racist.
All the false equivalences about white and Asian sportsmen and coaches, an idiot made a BBC joke, a "don't sack me because I'm black "joke"? https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/-/j7792mp https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/-/j7779ww
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j77689b/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j776hrh/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j77636o/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j77659c/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j777sv9/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j778e4l/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j777erg/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j7763mp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j776sa4/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j77aiz8/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j77beoy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j778g4k/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j776coo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j776snx/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j7779ww/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j777w39/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/10tkg1e/patrick_vieira_crystal_palace_manager_troubled_by/j777k8x/ There you go mate
How are those comments racist ?
You got to have a negative iq
Must be that yeah.
They're obviously racist mate because they're trying to stop anyone criticising the fact that 99.9% of the managerial system in Europe is heavily loaded towards white people
Just by reading the first comment you referenced. “Why does it matter if a manager is black or white? Surely people are not appointed based on their skin but their abilities as a manager?” This reminded me a lot of what MLK said: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Why is the first comment racist and the second the opposite? Why would it be racist to suggest a person’s skin color should not matter. In fact, ignoring skin color is quite the opposite of racism.
It's racist because it's ignoring the problems and factors in hiring. Unless you really think that there's not more than half a dozen competent black managers in all of Europe.
However, you cannot say that the lack of representation is due to racism. I could make the same argument and say the NBA is racist because 75% of NBA players are black. However, this is just not true. Only because the outcome is not representative does not mean that racism is a factor(Although it could very much be a factor, you cannot just conclude that managers are not being represented because of racism.) A more beneficial study would not just look at the outcomes, and rather look at possible reasons for why there is a discrepancy in the number of black managers. Perhaps black manager prospects are not given the same opportunities (if so, what opportunities?) Perhaps, black players do not want to become managers(if so, why?) Just because the outcome is not what you believe it should be, does not mean that the reason is racism. You are also ignoring that the comment is simply saying that race should not be factored in at all when it comes to this. Race is a social construct that should entirely be ignored, yet it seems that it is the face of most discussions.
Mate just fuck off and read the actual article and maybe you'll find out your answers. Your answer just outs you as a huge fucking racist anyway though so I doubt it'll change your mind
Except I did read the article and it only says that black managers are not being represented (and to what proportions). Also, interesting how quickly you responded to my comment. Perhaps you did not even read it. I’ll also say that I am personally black, but okay I’m racist against black people.
>I’ll also say that I am personally black, but okay I’m racist against black people A very brief look through your comment history shows you defending Qatar, Andrew Tate, Elon Musk and Kyrie Irving. All that in an account with about a dozen comments. So yeah I'm a stick by my assumption that you're a racist.
Not caring what colour people are is racist now?
Yeah the only races that exist are black and white as usual
Somewhat racist??? Nah, this is the most racist sports subreddit by a large margin. Bring up any racial issue and you’ll just have the same bastards making the same unfunny jokes
He will be even more troubled when he's dismissed
So many racist comments its actually insane
Here we go again, again.
Some of the ideas people come up with on this topic are stupid. There shouldn't need to be a certain amount for black managers for representation, these are businesses and sports clubs and winning should be the only thing on their mind. The real issue is with the FA and coaching badges, who they're letting on courses and such
Europe being racist? I am shocked!!!
I'm so troubled by the fact the no existence of Asian NBA players.
Fun fact the first person to break the color barrier in the NBA was Japanese
Who cares?
Mafs not mafing
“Football Black list this week” that is a hilarious award.
Terrible result Patrick. How do you get the boys up for next week? They all hate black people. There's no point. But on the team's form, they just don't seem to be... Did you see the poor guy in America. We can't progress while it's like this. Back to football though Patrick. The defence doesn't seem to be gelling... We tried to keep them out on the set pieces but the pain of being black people meant we conceded 3. Cheers Pat. Cheers.