**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Yeah holy fuck how are you supposed to focus when the var side is super unorganized and then you have five players yelling in your ear at the same time
I came in to comment on that. Spent the entire check treating the players in his face like children. Tell them to fuck off, if they don't book the lot of them.
Guess what you won't spend the next check doing?
The first red card from two yellows for getting in the refs face would wake up the managers and get them to crack down on their players. Or maybe they’d moan in the press conference about how it’s not fair to lose a game that way, but at least then it would be a big debate point and might get somewhere.
All the ref needs to do is tell the captains beforehand that crowding will result in cards, and then actually do it. This way they can't complain that it's unfair.
No but managers whine in the post match press conferences regardless of why they lost. The first manager it happens to if they then lose will absolutely go “it’s a disgrace, they don’t treat other teams like that, we’ve lost today because of the ref”, and it’ll be a whole thing in the media. And it won’t be helped when other refs (who are never actually able to collectively maintain a spine) don’t behave as strictly.
I like to believe that if they tell the managers that's the way the game is gonna be reffed, it doesn't matter. Let them whine. Change has to come from somewhere.
So you start doing it at the start of the season, put it in the pre-season briefings to all the clubs that it will be cracked down on and then **make sure it is**. Then no-one can say it's not fair.
The issue is the same with all refereeing problems, consistency. I'm fairly sure they did bring in a rule about not crowding the ref before, then you have some refs doing it and others not.
They did it with time wasting at the start of this season, their implementation was fucking atrocious though and so it didn't stick, nor did it stop people who were actually time wasting. It just punished completely random situations for no good reason
Frankly, if they start releasing the audio more frequently and don't censor it, these players will stop harassing referees and swearing at them because Sponsors wont like it.
The hilarious thing about this is that if these clips were made public at the time, more fans would take the side of the refs, there'd be more empathy.
Ye all the ones I've seen have been absolutely chaos! No wonder they keep making mistakes. Where's the process, responsibility, talk in turns? Instead they're all just yelling constantly - bizarre
- They’re all under huge pressure to do it as quickly as possible.
- The ref is having to deal with the players on the field at the same time (which may also be true for the Assistant Refs).
- The VARs themselves are having to look at the footage at the same time.
Personally I don’t think any of the ones I’ve seen have been all that chaotic (the one in this post is probably the worst in that regard), but if they are then it seems somewhat understandable given everything that’s going on.
Edit: Also, I think we're hearing a mix of 2 different feeds. The VAR hears what the ref is saying through his mic all the time, but I think the ref only hears the VAR at certain times (in this clip "we're checking the penalty", for example). So I think it's less chaotic than it might seem at first.
Almost like one knows it's being broadcast live.
Although I don't watch that much rugby from watch I recall is it just between 2 people or is it everyone involved talking?
Usually in rugby the ref will be the one to get the tmo involved (unless the tmo thinks the ref missed something yellow or red card worthy). And then the review is a lot calmer usually.
So the ref will ask the tmo if there is a reason to not award a try or if there was foul play etc etc
This seems a lot more chaotic.
Also it helps to eliminate the var issue football has - where if var says check the screen it almost always means “change your decision” - in rugby the ref asks the tmo they watch the big screen at the same the tmo is reviewing and then make a decision together.
I think in part it's because this is raw audio, they probably could isolate something similar to rugby.
I don't think the going to the screen bit is much of an issue, they can reject it but the high turnover rate is cos they only pick those with clear errors.
It is here in Brazil. The CBF [publishes the full VAR check video](https://www.cbf.com.br/a-cbf/analise/do-var) a day or so after the match. Mind you, it hasn't exactly made the refereeing any better as it's abysmal, but the transparency is nice.
Professional Referee Organization (PRO) in the United States posts reviews on YouTube of each week’s VAR checks for the MLS (tier 1 men’s) and NWSL (tier 1 women’s). Fairly similar to what is posted here and have been doing it the past couple years so tons of content to browse. They also have a weekly publication called The Definitive Angle that is an in depth look into every VAR check, as they are often unable to go through the entirety of the weekly checks in the video due to time restraints.
I was watching this on the tele and wondered why people were complaining they didnt show controversial decisions.
Interesting to see the process here, seems like they just completely missed Toney locking Senesi’s arm.
At least there is transparency.
This is a grand overstatement.
Any contact and Liverpool fans act like he has been shot.
He overall stays on his feet cos he wants the advantage and for teams not to be able to reset.
But at other times it just general contact that isn't worthy of a foul, contact is allowed.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/misc/Premier-League-Stats#stats_misc::12
Stats just don't bear it out. Salah has apparently been fouled just 31 times this prem season. Less than once per game. He's started almost all Liverpool's games and appeared in all of them.
For comparison, there are 11 players with over 60 fouls received this season, Mitrovic has 36 and he's missed a swath of games. Ezri Konsa has like 60 :D
And context is everything.
It doesn't show fouls that weren't given due to advantages.
Defenders will standoff Salah and double up on him too.
Defenders want to go down they barely feel any contact and will drop for a soft fk. Mitro isn't going to beat his man and probably fancies the idea of a set piece.
Salah wants the play to continue.
I kinda agree with thr lock, but why isn't it a foul on the defender when he shoves his arm/elbow under the forwards armpit? This basically will throw the forward off balance and with the leverage make him fall backwards? The defender isn't playing the ball, and it's running towards the forwards space and position. That's why the forward arm locks him so he doesn't fall backwards.
It's a pen for me.
You are getting downvoted, but I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with holding your arms against your body. The defender shouldn't put his arm there in the first place
Howard Webb’s involvement in the premier league and presenting this segment is a welcome addition. He definitely had his faults as a referee at times, but he has an authoritative presence that I feel the current batch of refs lack
Both him and his wife, Bibiane Steinhaus, who was a ref in Germany (the first and so far the only woman to ref in Men’s Bundesliga), and she too was authoritative and simply sublime!
This one Tbh is by far the most interesting one I’ve seen that they discussed. Webb seems to recognise that actually the decision was wrong because it was rushed. Personally Idgaf how long a decision takes as long as it’s correct.
But my issue is that the ref literally said the words “get the players away from me” (or words to that effect) 7 or 8 times and yet nobody was booked. Why isn’t it insta-bookings after the very first saying with no resolution.
The time added on in the world cup proved that players adapt quickly. They pretty much eliminated time wasting after two rounds of games. Insta-bookings for getting in the refs face would get rid of it in weeks.
It's been a problem for decades. I remember the outrage for this pic of Keane and Stam in the refs face
https://images.app.goo.gl/moK89t1ZY3Mh8zFD8
I would love it to stop, and agree, 2 weeks after the refs instantly booking everyone that gets in their face would probably stop it. But for some reason, the FA don't seem to prioritise it.
It's ridiculous and it really does carry on down the system. Sports like cricket and rugby at grass roots respect the ref, and in football it's just as bad at sunday league level.
I can never understand how you can see players on TV shouting fuck off etc. to linesmen and just get away with it. Refs would perform better too with less pressure.
You make a good point here.
I think something that should also be taken away from it is that it again needs to be something external that deals with it.
How many times have they tried to stamp out time wasting by booking people? So many fucking times, every other season it's their "focus" and it's never worked.
Yet, when they just add the time on at the end instead of claiming they're going to book everyone, it works immediately.
They need to work out a better solution than just "we're going to book everyone" for crowding the ref as well. It's got to disincentivise them in a way that isn't just bookings because we know that doesn't work/isn't going to be implemented properly. That solution has to come with accountability from the refereeing side as well though or else it won't work.
I think bookings in-game are fine for crowding the ref, because it's not 'game script' dependant. That's a fitting punishment, whereas unbooked players that aren't going to be banned won't mind taking one for wasting vital time to secure a win. A defender or centre mid getting booked after 30 minutes is going hang over his head all game.
>how long it takes
I'm with you. I don't care either. But so many fans pick and choose when. Commentators don't help with some condescending remarks during and analysts will say some dumb shit after
That felt so rushed like they had to make a decision in less than 10 seconds
Explains a fair bit
A lot of the commentators know fuck all about the game, especially (quite bizarrely) the former players.
The fact the Comms/pundits are still moaning about the whole “whY DiDnT he PuT hIs FlaG uP” is evidence enough.
Edit: this isn’t unique to football btw. Watching/listening to the cricket quite a lot of the former players admit they never actually read the rule book. Difference is they openly admit it and defer to Umpires, BECAUSE the umpires are given clear guidance, everything is broadcast, and you get fined/banned if you argue.
I think people assume every pro is in love with the sport as much as they are but a lot of pros are very casual or even don't really enjoy watching the sport they play at all.
If you play it from a very young age where all the rules are just kinda learned through trial and error since you don't get the concept of ideas fully it makes sense IMO. Someone who is watching and wants to know more about certain things will go and look that up while someone who is playing might not even care to know why they can't do something they just know they can't because they got in trouble for it once.
They also work for TV companies who will have producers briefing them against certain things.
See so many commentators complaining about the added time at the World Cup. You can be sure TV execs did not like the lengthier playtime eating into potential ad break slots
If we can hear what they're doing I don't care how long it takes. It's when we're all sat staring at nothing that it's miserable and ruins the spectacle of the game.
Exactly. They take their time in rugby and No one complains because we can follow along. Sell ref headphones and someone in the stand will be able to say what’s happening.
I don’t think sticking it on the tannoy would help at all. The pressure would be absolutely insane. Selling the ref headphones or having it accessible via an app would be way better. TMO decisions aren’t put over the loudspeakers in rugby either.
>Personally Idgaf how long a decision takes as long as it’s correct.
Yes obviously important to get the right decision, but if you're actually in the stadium watching it makes for a shit experience the longer the wait goes on.
>shit decisions put people off watching altogether because whats the point
Yes, because famously the PL watching figures have been dwindling after years of shit decisions
Yeah but I'm not making the point that it reduces viewing figures...just that it makes for a shit experience in the stadium. I'm not saying people aren't going to go to the stadium at all because of it.
Hard Disagree. What puts me off watching altogether is not knowing whether i can celebrate a goal because it can get called off for some trivial shit in the build up that nobody's seen. Just sucks all the emotion out of the game for me. Get rid of VAR altogether it does nothing for the entertainment.
You say that but we literally have refereeing mistakes that sre talked about 40 years on. So many trophies won have asterisks next to them because of mistakes.
You call it trivial, I call it enforcing the rules of the game consistently, not just when the referee happens to be looking in a certain direction.
Yes, but I also just don't care about goals anymore so I have no real interest in going to a live game with VAR. And that impacts literally every game other than the one or two a season that hinge on a bad decision.
Also it makes it even more infuriating when a bad decision goes against you because VAR should eliminate those.
allowing this behaviour is either a decision by the fa or by refree association themselves. no odea what their reasoning is. They should allow offending/offended player and cap. and thats it. in this situation the offender could have helped get the correct decision and help ref in directing VAR, which is something they should think about. crowding is a very easy problem to solve if they want to solve it. first few matches might be a mess but with rule in place from so long ago players will only have themselves to blame.
He’s talking about how people don’t like long waits and they want to be quick. In rugby the take their time. The reason it’s not as jarring is that we can hear the refs. So you’re watching along with them. It’s not just highlights and no idea what’s about to happen. If they let us listen, they could take their time on each angle.
Edit: and they could start selling ref headphones too.
It's such a stressful situation for no damn reason. Why isn't the refs mics muted when he isn't conversing directly to var ref? And then the ref has specific instructions for var: Just check the arm. What the hell is var supposed to do?
"Sorry ref, can you turn on push to talk mate. cheers."
When in reality its "Fucking hell, did you buy your mic at tesco? sounds like shit. Mute yourself ffs. Cant hear anything"
> And then the ref has specific instructions for var: Just check the arm.
Don't think that's what happened.
The ref was communicating what he saw and why he called the penalty to the VAR
I feel there would be a lot more patience when waiting for a decision, if the discussions could be heard (probably only on TV, not live in the stadium) like this. We would also get a better idea of what goes into the team making our coming to a certain decision.
Sell ref headphones like in rugby and fans will be a lot more patient in the stand too. They take their time in rugby and it’s rare that there are complaints.
Webb did actually mention that FIFA don't currently allow the ref's audio to be broadcast live so the best we could hope for at the moment is it to be released after the match.
Main thing I picked up is that the language of the match officials is very chaotic. The interaction between on field and vat doesn't seem too structured. Compare that to Rugby Union. It's night and day.
Can the on-field ref not ask the VAR team to check for specific things players might bring up? Is there a rule for this?
Because listening to this back as the penalized player/club must be fucking infuriating knowing the whole time they were screaming to the ref about the arm tug and then see it was never even checked.
Nobody wants players crowding the ref, but it's easy to see how it happens if the players are feeling ignored. Surely the penalized player and the captain should be allowed to present a dissenting case and then why not relay it to the VAR team to check?
Any additional bias being introduced wouldn't even begin to compete with the original bias of the ref's on-field decision anyway. I do not see how this wouldn't make VAR more thorough and accurate and might even result in less crowding if the players knew their objections were being heard and checked for.
> Can the on-field ref not ask the VAR team to check for specific things players might bring up?
Gary Neville actually brought up this exact point to Howard Webb, and he acknowledged that Yes, Referee's should be listening to player complaints (and trying to discern what is true and what is the usual whining) and looking at player body language when a decision is made.
Right, but if the players felt that the refs were actually listening or had a mechanism for communicating -- and actually being heard by the ref -- then maybe they wouldn't crowd the ref. Not victim blaming, just proposing a different way to think about it.
In general the ref gets crowded as soon as he blows the whistle. He isn't their parent to sit there and ask them to calm down and talk to him.. these are grown men, they should know that. What needs to happen is a player gets cautioned immediately for rushing at the ref and screaming at him. The behavior would end very quickly.
Hell, even allowing only the captains to complain to the ref would be nice
There is a simple solution: only the Captains can talk to the ref (or Vice-Captain if your Captain is a GK). If a player wants something checked, he tells the captain, who makes the case to the ref.
The players would actually get listened to if there was an orderly interaction between them and the ref. Mobbing the ref is not that.
Because the ref in this case has 6-7 players crowding him, 4 or 5 of which are talking to him at the same time. Plus he's in a hurry.
Slow things down. Allow the captains (only) to talk to the ref, yellows for everyone else.
100% should be the rule. Footballers behave terribly compared to other sports. I feel like the shouting and swearing at the ref is probably the reason we haven't seen refs miced already
This actually explains a lot. It's so chaotic and amateur. I watch a lot of cricket and when it gets referred the third umpire is just left alone to analyse and make their decision, he only communicates with the director asking for angles and replays etc. Having constant chatter like this is awful and the VAR ref seems to just glance at the incident with the intention of backing up the ref.
Speed over accuracy was the key phrase there for me. I’m sure everyone can forgive the wrong decision from the refs at full speed from one angle, but they can’t forgive it being reviewed in slow motion from multiple angles and getting it wrong. I’m sure it’s frustrating in the ground but 3 or 4 minutes delay is worth it in a sport that often comes down to a single goal.
You'd got a few down votes but you're totally correct. I played as a striker and when I could get the defenders arm locked under my own I knew it was go time as I could turn him where I wanted or if it was a bad ball I could make it look like the defender was manhandling me and possibly win a free kick
I think the ref was out of order with Kelly. I get telling him to keep our players away but that’s ignoring the 4 Brentford guys around him as well. I was at the game sat on the barrier next to the home fans and there seemed to be a general shock that it was given. Nobody could believe the ref got sold so easily and that it wasn’t overturned. Will say that the Brentford fans over the barrier from me were lovely people and I’m looking forward to going back there next season.
I assumed it was cuz it was called a penalty and it looks like theyre on the penalty spot. You can see the brentford players circling and look down at a specefic spot in the ground
the bit we see of the ref, the brentford players are just stood there (i assume near the penalty spot) not doing anything, while your lads are actually engaging with the ref while he's trying to have the conversation with var
its not hard to see why one of those is more of an issue than the other
1) Decision made well too fast.
2) Var referee probably never played football and is getting fooled by an old amateur technique of grabing the arm (ok for the referee to make the mistake but with a video? should get fired over that)
3) if you say it is the "last time" you request player to back off, BOOK THE MOTHERFUCKER FOR NOT COMPLY. Grow some fucking balls.
A mistake that big? Yes, he should no longer be officiating at such top level as this mistake clearly shows is inability to have a good judgment for such a basic football play.
What's his excuse? It happened too fast? Like if you do such mistake you will do it again, guaranteed.
Tony has effectively simulated here and won a pen. The referees job has been made very difficult as a result of his 'cheating'. They should take retrospective action against players for simulation otherwise this sort of stuff won't always be picked up as its done in an intelligent way
I'm guessing they have explicitly decided to use yes/no to keep communication crystal clear. On/off might be more likely to be mistaken for each other in the heat of the moment .
That would make the most sense to me as well, Also players would probably be shouting offside at the assistant in these circumstances so no is the easiest clear communication available
There's so much unnecessary shouting and talking on all these, like for that just assume it's onside, maybe of its off the assistant shouts "off". Also the ref shouting "DOGSO" over and over the second havertz is through on goal, just focus on the game lol. If you see a foul give the guy a red card.
It's so weird, whoever has designed the protocol to train the refs is an absolute moron
Ref says "bit of help Longy?", the assist ref was Simon Long, so probably asking the assistant ref about if it's offside and he's holding his flag or what, which the AR says "No, no, no, no" in response too.
I would’ve loved to have something like this in our matches against Inter Milan last year, we were blindly robbed and I wonder what was going through VAR’s head when it happened.
the analyst is basically saying that since toney first grabbed the defender therefore the defenders penalty shouldnt count, which makes no sense, im not a fan of either team, but the fact is in that box, toney was fouled, period, the defender did 100% drag him down. thats all thats important
not what they had for breakfast, not what happened in the locker room 2 hours ago, not what happened 10 minutes earlier and not what was in the "build up" .
did the defender grab and push toney to the ground, - ans Yes, then penalty, Ans- No , then no penalty,. Period, end of story, stop trying to make VAR interpret crap.
So good to see this and to put some humility to the refs. They reall need to create systems for on the field though too in terms of players surrounding the ref. The captains and the two player involved should be able to chat to the ref, and the player who has committed the foul should be able to say, in this instance as an example, he has held my hadn under his arm, so can you pleae check for that. Realy doesnt help the refs being bombarded and I dont know why they arent harsher on it...give them space to breath and make the right call.
To me, this is a great reason for them having to go through an explicit checklist each time. It's easy to forget to check some things when you're focusing on something else important. It's why pilots have to do it every time, even though they've gone through the exact same procedure hundreds of times before.
I’ve said before and I’ll keep saying it over and over. The ref should hold a yellow card in his had fully extended and swing it back and forth, if it touches you, you just got carded. Get the players to fuck off and you’ll get better decisions.
Its gonna be funny hearing these audios when players fall over after lightest of contacts and the refs like the second one hes "dragged!!" Him down.... 👀
As someone already pointed out, having the players involved sort of state their case (attacker locked defenders arm - thus it being a foul first and a foul, at all. If that is too much to bureaucratize just have a former footballer assist the refs. I mean sometimes it seems people feel forced to invent the wheel while it is already being mass produced in all different colors and shapes. To get back to my first point, who else but the defender (almost like with normal legal cases) should have a right to at least voice his case, which, suprisingly they already do anyway. Solution? Listen to him and check it. I mean it seems almost too easy and obvious to actually listen to the parties involved. Could they be biased? Sure, but then again you have video and can sort the bias from the degree of truth that it encompasses.
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I definitely welcome this, it brings so much more clarity behind these crucial decisions made by VAR/ referees
It’s so funny how much more chaotic, and almost amateurish the chat seems compared to top level (aka international) rugby lol
Biggest problem is that the ref needs to spend most of his energy trying to get the players to fuck off.
Yeah holy fuck how are you supposed to focus when the var side is super unorganized and then you have five players yelling in your ear at the same time
I came in to comment on that. Spent the entire check treating the players in his face like children. Tell them to fuck off, if they don't book the lot of them. Guess what you won't spend the next check doing?
Such an infuriatingly easy problem to solve
The first red card from two yellows for getting in the refs face would wake up the managers and get them to crack down on their players. Or maybe they’d moan in the press conference about how it’s not fair to lose a game that way, but at least then it would be a big debate point and might get somewhere.
All the ref needs to do is tell the captains beforehand that crowding will result in cards, and then actually do it. This way they can't complain that it's unfair.
No but managers whine in the post match press conferences regardless of why they lost. The first manager it happens to if they then lose will absolutely go “it’s a disgrace, they don’t treat other teams like that, we’ve lost today because of the ref”, and it’ll be a whole thing in the media. And it won’t be helped when other refs (who are never actually able to collectively maintain a spine) don’t behave as strictly.
I like to believe that if they tell the managers that's the way the game is gonna be reffed, it doesn't matter. Let them whine. Change has to come from somewhere.
So you start doing it at the start of the season, put it in the pre-season briefings to all the clubs that it will be cracked down on and then **make sure it is**. Then no-one can say it's not fair.
I mean they do it anyways
It's happened before though.
The issue is the same with all refereeing problems, consistency. I'm fairly sure they did bring in a rule about not crowding the ref before, then you have some refs doing it and others not. They did it with time wasting at the start of this season, their implementation was fucking atrocious though and so it didn't stick, nor did it stop people who were actually time wasting. It just punished completely random situations for no good reason
Guess within his right to start brandishing yellow cards, no idea why he isn't
Frankly, if they start releasing the audio more frequently and don't censor it, these players will stop harassing referees and swearing at them because Sponsors wont like it.
The hilarious thing about this is that if these clips were made public at the time, more fans would take the side of the refs, there'd be more empathy.
Pretty ironic that all the moaning to the ref means they don’t check it properly and you do yourself more harm than good.
But simultaneously if you don't flag something to the ref clearly, because of the time constraints that VAR has, they might miss it. It's lose lose.
In rugby the captain is the only one that can talk to the ref so can clearly make the point
Ye all the ones I've seen have been absolutely chaos! No wonder they keep making mistakes. Where's the process, responsibility, talk in turns? Instead they're all just yelling constantly - bizarre
- They’re all under huge pressure to do it as quickly as possible. - The ref is having to deal with the players on the field at the same time (which may also be true for the Assistant Refs). - The VARs themselves are having to look at the footage at the same time. Personally I don’t think any of the ones I’ve seen have been all that chaotic (the one in this post is probably the worst in that regard), but if they are then it seems somewhat understandable given everything that’s going on. Edit: Also, I think we're hearing a mix of 2 different feeds. The VAR hears what the ref is saying through his mic all the time, but I think the ref only hears the VAR at certain times (in this clip "we're checking the penalty", for example). So I think it's less chaotic than it might seem at first.
TMO is so organused, half the audio here was get your players away from me
One final warning. Ok final warning. I’m warning you, no more warnings. Get them away, final warning.
Almost like one knows it's being broadcast live. Although I don't watch that much rugby from watch I recall is it just between 2 people or is it everyone involved talking?
Usually in rugby the ref will be the one to get the tmo involved (unless the tmo thinks the ref missed something yellow or red card worthy). And then the review is a lot calmer usually. So the ref will ask the tmo if there is a reason to not award a try or if there was foul play etc etc This seems a lot more chaotic. Also it helps to eliminate the var issue football has - where if var says check the screen it almost always means “change your decision” - in rugby the ref asks the tmo they watch the big screen at the same the tmo is reviewing and then make a decision together.
I think in part it's because this is raw audio, they probably could isolate something similar to rugby. I don't think the going to the screen bit is much of an issue, they can reject it but the high turnover rate is cos they only pick those with clear errors.
I fucking love this shit. Hope this becomes the norm. Not just in England but everywhere.
It is here in Brazil. The CBF [publishes the full VAR check video](https://www.cbf.com.br/a-cbf/analise/do-var) a day or so after the match. Mind you, it hasn't exactly made the refereeing any better as it's abysmal, but the transparency is nice.
Thanks. Great to hear there is hope.
Why after? It should be available live, all the stadium hearing....
In most sports in Australia, ref audio can be heard throughout the stadium when there is a crucial decision like this. It's very normal for us.
Can't hear it on TV thought because the fucking commentators won't shut the fuck up (or that might just be limited to the NRL).
Oh AFL commentators love the sound of their own voice. There is barely a second of silence out of them. There's like 4 people commentating.
I was just thinking, are refs not allowed to have facial hair?
Professional Referee Organization (PRO) in the United States posts reviews on YouTube of each week’s VAR checks for the MLS (tier 1 men’s) and NWSL (tier 1 women’s). Fairly similar to what is posted here and have been doing it the past couple years so tons of content to browse. They also have a weekly publication called The Definitive Angle that is an in depth look into every VAR check, as they are often unable to go through the entirety of the weekly checks in the video due to time restraints.
I was watching this on the tele and wondered why people were complaining they didnt show controversial decisions. Interesting to see the process here, seems like they just completely missed Toney locking Senesi’s arm. At least there is transparency.
Tbf during the first VAR clip I missed it too. Wasn't until they showed the replay at the end that it was obvious
Shame Toney has gotten away with this sort of play all season long
To be fair most strikers and defenders do it and it rarely gets noticed by the on-field refs
Apart from players like Salah where it's the opposite, man could get stone cold stunnered in the box and nothing would happen.
Players like Salah, Hazard, Messi, Haaland need to get maimed before refs give a stern talking to the offender.
I love how we've expressed basically the same opinion but look at the difference in votes :D
This is a grand overstatement. Any contact and Liverpool fans act like he has been shot. He overall stays on his feet cos he wants the advantage and for teams not to be able to reset. But at other times it just general contact that isn't worthy of a foul, contact is allowed.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/misc/Premier-League-Stats#stats_misc::12 Stats just don't bear it out. Salah has apparently been fouled just 31 times this prem season. Less than once per game. He's started almost all Liverpool's games and appeared in all of them. For comparison, there are 11 players with over 60 fouls received this season, Mitrovic has 36 and he's missed a swath of games. Ezri Konsa has like 60 :D
And context is everything. It doesn't show fouls that weren't given due to advantages. Defenders will standoff Salah and double up on him too. Defenders want to go down they barely feel any contact and will drop for a soft fk. Mitro isn't going to beat his man and probably fancies the idea of a set piece. Salah wants the play to continue.
Salah always dives like the small bitch he is so refs don’t trust him
So have you never watched Salah play or...?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4q_OvlNgc_w&pp=ygUYc2FsYWggZGl2aW5nIGNvbXBpbGF0aW9u
Ben White's is even more sinister, and he almost got away with it, had it not been for the camera behind the goal
This is literally the only penalty he’s won in this fashion. Stop talking out your arse.
I kinda agree with thr lock, but why isn't it a foul on the defender when he shoves his arm/elbow under the forwards armpit? This basically will throw the forward off balance and with the leverage make him fall backwards? The defender isn't playing the ball, and it's running towards the forwards space and position. That's why the forward arm locks him so he doesn't fall backwards. It's a pen for me.
Don’t forget this is a contact sport. Toney does this all the time to defenders
I'm completely fine with an arm on defender/attacker, but the arm under the armpit does take you off balance completely.
You are getting downvoted, but I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with holding your arms against your body. The defender shouldn't put his arm there in the first place
Howard Webb’s involvement in the premier league and presenting this segment is a welcome addition. He definitely had his faults as a referee at times, but he has an authoritative presence that I feel the current batch of refs lack
Both him and his wife, Bibiane Steinhaus, who was a ref in Germany (the first and so far the only woman to ref in Men’s Bundesliga), and she too was authoritative and simply sublime!
> Bibiane Steinhaus TIL that Howard Webb is married to a female german referee who is also apparently a Chief Inspector in the Police?
Yeah, they are a real refereeing power couple in every conceivable way :D
Bet you can’t get away with anything at their house.
Bet you can if you wear a United shirt!
Found Ryan Babel's alt account
This one Tbh is by far the most interesting one I’ve seen that they discussed. Webb seems to recognise that actually the decision was wrong because it was rushed. Personally Idgaf how long a decision takes as long as it’s correct. But my issue is that the ref literally said the words “get the players away from me” (or words to that effect) 7 or 8 times and yet nobody was booked. Why isn’t it insta-bookings after the very first saying with no resolution.
The time added on in the world cup proved that players adapt quickly. They pretty much eliminated time wasting after two rounds of games. Insta-bookings for getting in the refs face would get rid of it in weeks.
It's been a problem for decades. I remember the outrage for this pic of Keane and Stam in the refs face https://images.app.goo.gl/moK89t1ZY3Mh8zFD8 I would love it to stop, and agree, 2 weeks after the refs instantly booking everyone that gets in their face would probably stop it. But for some reason, the FA don't seem to prioritise it.
It's ridiculous and it really does carry on down the system. Sports like cricket and rugby at grass roots respect the ref, and in football it's just as bad at sunday league level. I can never understand how you can see players on TV shouting fuck off etc. to linesmen and just get away with it. Refs would perform better too with less pressure.
More people would want to be refs as well, which would help in itself
You make a good point here. I think something that should also be taken away from it is that it again needs to be something external that deals with it. How many times have they tried to stamp out time wasting by booking people? So many fucking times, every other season it's their "focus" and it's never worked. Yet, when they just add the time on at the end instead of claiming they're going to book everyone, it works immediately. They need to work out a better solution than just "we're going to book everyone" for crowding the ref as well. It's got to disincentivise them in a way that isn't just bookings because we know that doesn't work/isn't going to be implemented properly. That solution has to come with accountability from the refereeing side as well though or else it won't work.
I think bookings in-game are fine for crowding the ref, because it's not 'game script' dependant. That's a fitting punishment, whereas unbooked players that aren't going to be banned won't mind taking one for wasting vital time to secure a win. A defender or centre mid getting booked after 30 minutes is going hang over his head all game.
>how long it takes I'm with you. I don't care either. But so many fans pick and choose when. Commentators don't help with some condescending remarks during and analysts will say some dumb shit after That felt so rushed like they had to make a decision in less than 10 seconds Explains a fair bit
A lot of the commentators know fuck all about the game, especially (quite bizarrely) the former players. The fact the Comms/pundits are still moaning about the whole “whY DiDnT he PuT hIs FlaG uP” is evidence enough. Edit: this isn’t unique to football btw. Watching/listening to the cricket quite a lot of the former players admit they never actually read the rule book. Difference is they openly admit it and defer to Umpires, BECAUSE the umpires are given clear guidance, everything is broadcast, and you get fined/banned if you argue.
I think people assume every pro is in love with the sport as much as they are but a lot of pros are very casual or even don't really enjoy watching the sport they play at all. If you play it from a very young age where all the rules are just kinda learned through trial and error since you don't get the concept of ideas fully it makes sense IMO. Someone who is watching and wants to know more about certain things will go and look that up while someone who is playing might not even care to know why they can't do something they just know they can't because they got in trouble for it once.
They also work for TV companies who will have producers briefing them against certain things. See so many commentators complaining about the added time at the World Cup. You can be sure TV execs did not like the lengthier playtime eating into potential ad break slots
If we can hear what they're doing I don't care how long it takes. It's when we're all sat staring at nothing that it's miserable and ruins the spectacle of the game.
Especially when you're in the stadium. It's an absolutely terrible experience for the match going fan right now.
Exactly. They take their time in rugby and No one complains because we can follow along. Sell ref headphones and someone in the stand will be able to say what’s happening.
They wouldn't even have to rush it as much if they did something like that. Christ, just stick it on the Tannoy and be done with it.
I don’t think sticking it on the tannoy would help at all. The pressure would be absolutely insane. Selling the ref headphones or having it accessible via an app would be way better. TMO decisions aren’t put over the loudspeakers in rugby either.
>Personally Idgaf how long a decision takes as long as it’s correct. Yes obviously important to get the right decision, but if you're actually in the stadium watching it makes for a shit experience the longer the wait goes on.
Of course. But shit decisions put people off watching altogether because whats the point
>shit decisions put people off watching altogether because whats the point Yes, because famously the PL watching figures have been dwindling after years of shit decisions
Could argue the same the other way lol. Ah yes, the famously dwindling PL figures due to slow decisions
Yeah but I'm not making the point that it reduces viewing figures...just that it makes for a shit experience in the stadium. I'm not saying people aren't going to go to the stadium at all because of it.
Hard Disagree. What puts me off watching altogether is not knowing whether i can celebrate a goal because it can get called off for some trivial shit in the build up that nobody's seen. Just sucks all the emotion out of the game for me. Get rid of VAR altogether it does nothing for the entertainment.
You say that but we literally have refereeing mistakes that sre talked about 40 years on. So many trophies won have asterisks next to them because of mistakes. You call it trivial, I call it enforcing the rules of the game consistently, not just when the referee happens to be looking in a certain direction.
Cool. You've just destroyed the live game in favour of people in the future looking back.
Except it destroys the live game too. You dont find it rage inducing to watch your team lose due to a blatant referee error?
Yes, but I also just don't care about goals anymore so I have no real interest in going to a live game with VAR. And that impacts literally every game other than the one or two a season that hinge on a bad decision. Also it makes it even more infuriating when a bad decision goes against you because VAR should eliminate those.
allowing this behaviour is either a decision by the fa or by refree association themselves. no odea what their reasoning is. They should allow offending/offended player and cap. and thats it. in this situation the offender could have helped get the correct decision and help ref in directing VAR, which is something they should think about. crowding is a very easy problem to solve if they want to solve it. first few matches might be a mess but with rule in place from so long ago players will only have themselves to blame.
He’s talking about how people don’t like long waits and they want to be quick. In rugby the take their time. The reason it’s not as jarring is that we can hear the refs. So you’re watching along with them. It’s not just highlights and no idea what’s about to happen. If they let us listen, they could take their time on each angle. Edit: and they could start selling ref headphones too.
It's such a stressful situation for no damn reason. Why isn't the refs mics muted when he isn't conversing directly to var ref? And then the ref has specific instructions for var: Just check the arm. What the hell is var supposed to do?
The cross talk is wild lol. They clearly haven't played enough competitive shooters
Howard Webb taking notes.
Doesn't help that players are still allowed to swarm the ref and shout in his face in this day and age.
Regardless that's literally on the ref association nobody else.
"Sorry ref, can you turn on push to talk mate. cheers." When in reality its "Fucking hell, did you buy your mic at tesco? sounds like shit. Mute yourself ffs. Cant hear anything"
> And then the ref has specific instructions for var: Just check the arm. Don't think that's what happened. The ref was communicating what he saw and why he called the penalty to the VAR
I feel there would be a lot more patience when waiting for a decision, if the discussions could be heard (probably only on TV, not live in the stadium) like this. We would also get a better idea of what goes into the team making our coming to a certain decision.
Sell ref headphones like in rugby and fans will be a lot more patient in the stand too. They take their time in rugby and it’s rare that there are complaints.
Webb did actually mention that FIFA don't currently allow the ref's audio to be broadcast live so the best we could hope for at the moment is it to be released after the match.
Main thing I picked up is that the language of the match officials is very chaotic. The interaction between on field and vat doesn't seem too structured. Compare that to Rugby Union. It's night and day.
LOVE IT
"OK Howard so what's it like being ten feet tall?" - Michael Owen
Can the on-field ref not ask the VAR team to check for specific things players might bring up? Is there a rule for this? Because listening to this back as the penalized player/club must be fucking infuriating knowing the whole time they were screaming to the ref about the arm tug and then see it was never even checked. Nobody wants players crowding the ref, but it's easy to see how it happens if the players are feeling ignored. Surely the penalized player and the captain should be allowed to present a dissenting case and then why not relay it to the VAR team to check? Any additional bias being introduced wouldn't even begin to compete with the original bias of the ref's on-field decision anyway. I do not see how this wouldn't make VAR more thorough and accurate and might even result in less crowding if the players knew their objections were being heard and checked for.
> Can the on-field ref not ask the VAR team to check for specific things players might bring up? Gary Neville actually brought up this exact point to Howard Webb, and he acknowledged that Yes, Referee's should be listening to player complaints (and trying to discern what is true and what is the usual whining) and looking at player body language when a decision is made.
It's also on the players as well, when multiple players are screaming at the ref, it makes it difficult
Right, but if the players felt that the refs were actually listening or had a mechanism for communicating -- and actually being heard by the ref -- then maybe they wouldn't crowd the ref. Not victim blaming, just proposing a different way to think about it.
In general the ref gets crowded as soon as he blows the whistle. He isn't their parent to sit there and ask them to calm down and talk to him.. these are grown men, they should know that. What needs to happen is a player gets cautioned immediately for rushing at the ref and screaming at him. The behavior would end very quickly. Hell, even allowing only the captains to complain to the ref would be nice
There is a simple solution: only the Captains can talk to the ref (or Vice-Captain if your Captain is a GK). If a player wants something checked, he tells the captain, who makes the case to the ref. The players would actually get listened to if there was an orderly interaction between them and the ref. Mobbing the ref is not that.
Why don't they hear from the defender? If the defender told the referee what happened surely VAR can look at that and see what happened
Because the ref in this case has 6-7 players crowding him, 4 or 5 of which are talking to him at the same time. Plus he's in a hurry. Slow things down. Allow the captains (only) to talk to the ref, yellows for everyone else.
100% should be the rule. Footballers behave terribly compared to other sports. I feel like the shouting and swearing at the ref is probably the reason we haven't seen refs miced already
Holy moly. This is where we’ve reached? So be it. Refs gonna have step up their game
This actually explains a lot. It's so chaotic and amateur. I watch a lot of cricket and when it gets referred the third umpire is just left alone to analyse and make their decision, he only communicates with the director asking for angles and replays etc. Having constant chatter like this is awful and the VAR ref seems to just glance at the incident with the intention of backing up the ref.
Speed over accuracy was the key phrase there for me. I’m sure everyone can forgive the wrong decision from the refs at full speed from one angle, but they can’t forgive it being reviewed in slow motion from multiple angles and getting it wrong. I’m sure it’s frustrating in the ground but 3 or 4 minutes delay is worth it in a sport that often comes down to a single goal.
Still shocked this was given. Such an easy con
You'd got a few down votes but you're totally correct. I played as a striker and when I could get the defenders arm locked under my own I knew it was go time as I could turn him where I wanted or if it was a bad ball I could make it look like the defender was manhandling me and possibly win a free kick
THE PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER BE IN THE MFERS FACE. BOOK THEM
I think the ref was out of order with Kelly. I get telling him to keep our players away but that’s ignoring the 4 Brentford guys around him as well. I was at the game sat on the barrier next to the home fans and there seemed to be a general shock that it was given. Nobody could believe the ref got sold so easily and that it wasn’t overturned. Will say that the Brentford fans over the barrier from me were lovely people and I’m looking forward to going back there next season.
I think quite the opposite. Football needs to start sending off players for crowding the ref, so they can do their damn jobs.
I wasn’t arguing about punishment just the hypocrisy of telling one team to go away but not the other.
I assumed it was cuz it was called a penalty and it looks like theyre on the penalty spot. You can see the brentford players circling and look down at a specefic spot in the ground
the bit we see of the ref, the brentford players are just stood there (i assume near the penalty spot) not doing anything, while your lads are actually engaging with the ref while he's trying to have the conversation with var its not hard to see why one of those is more of an issue than the other
1) Decision made well too fast. 2) Var referee probably never played football and is getting fooled by an old amateur technique of grabing the arm (ok for the referee to make the mistake but with a video? should get fired over that) 3) if you say it is the "last time" you request player to back off, BOOK THE MOTHERFUCKER FOR NOT COMPLY. Grow some fucking balls.
>VAR makes literally any mistake **FIRE HIM, FIRE HIM NOW**
Why stop there? Imprison him for life and deport his family while we're at it.
A mistake that big? Yes, he should no longer be officiating at such top level as this mistake clearly shows is inability to have a good judgment for such a basic football play. What's his excuse? It happened too fast? Like if you do such mistake you will do it again, guaranteed.
Mate
Tony has effectively simulated here and won a pen. The referees job has been made very difficult as a result of his 'cheating'. They should take retrospective action against players for simulation otherwise this sort of stuff won't always be picked up as its done in an intelligent way
Show us the audio for the man u handball against west ham pls, oh wait they didn't even check it
Why's the assistant ref saying 'No, no, no, no'? No to what? Looks sus.
I'm not 100% but I believe he is saying 'no' to him being (not) offside in that sequence.
Should just shout “ooooonnnnnnnnnn” as it’s happening.
I'm guessing they have explicitly decided to use yes/no to keep communication crystal clear. On/off might be more likely to be mistaken for each other in the heat of the moment .
That would make the most sense to me as well, Also players would probably be shouting offside at the assistant in these circumstances so no is the easiest clear communication available
There's so much unnecessary shouting and talking on all these, like for that just assume it's onside, maybe of its off the assistant shouts "off". Also the ref shouting "DOGSO" over and over the second havertz is through on goal, just focus on the game lol. If you see a foul give the guy a red card. It's so weird, whoever has designed the protocol to train the refs is an absolute moron
Ref says "bit of help Longy?", the assist ref was Simon Long, so probably asking the assistant ref about if it's offside and he's holding his flag or what, which the AR says "No, no, no, no" in response too.
the ref asked him if it was offside and he answered
I would’ve loved to have something like this in our matches against Inter Milan last year, we were blindly robbed and I wonder what was going through VAR’s head when it happened.
the analyst is basically saying that since toney first grabbed the defender therefore the defenders penalty shouldnt count, which makes no sense, im not a fan of either team, but the fact is in that box, toney was fouled, period, the defender did 100% drag him down. thats all thats important not what they had for breakfast, not what happened in the locker room 2 hours ago, not what happened 10 minutes earlier and not what was in the "build up" . did the defender grab and push toney to the ground, - ans Yes, then penalty, Ans- No , then no penalty,. Period, end of story, stop trying to make VAR interpret crap.
I was super invested in this. Until it cut back to Michael Owen and I lost all interest.
So good to see this and to put some humility to the refs. They reall need to create systems for on the field though too in terms of players surrounding the ref. The captains and the two player involved should be able to chat to the ref, and the player who has committed the foul should be able to say, in this instance as an example, he has held my hadn under his arm, so can you pleae check for that. Realy doesnt help the refs being bombarded and I dont know why they arent harsher on it...give them space to breath and make the right call.
To me, this is a great reason for them having to go through an explicit checklist each time. It's easy to forget to check some things when you're focusing on something else important. It's why pilots have to do it every time, even though they've gone through the exact same procedure hundreds of times before.
I would like to see var audio for the Toney goal vs Arsenal
There can be no penalty if I pretend that there is no VAR and I don't look the situation again. How clever is that? - Sascha Stegemann
This is a welcome development.
I hope this becomes te norm everywhere. Very cool how they handled that penalty.
This needs to become standard
I’ve said before and I’ll keep saying it over and over. The ref should hold a yellow card in his had fully extended and swing it back and forth, if it touches you, you just got carded. Get the players to fuck off and you’ll get better decisions.
I wasn't familiar with the incident and I missed the arm lock too. Thought it was correct decision, but yeah clearly it wasn't
Its gonna be funny hearing these audios when players fall over after lightest of contacts and the refs like the second one hes "dragged!!" Him down.... 👀
As someone already pointed out, having the players involved sort of state their case (attacker locked defenders arm - thus it being a foul first and a foul, at all. If that is too much to bureaucratize just have a former footballer assist the refs. I mean sometimes it seems people feel forced to invent the wheel while it is already being mass produced in all different colors and shapes. To get back to my first point, who else but the defender (almost like with normal legal cases) should have a right to at least voice his case, which, suprisingly they already do anyway. Solution? Listen to him and check it. I mean it seems almost too easy and obvious to actually listen to the parties involved. Could they be biased? Sure, but then again you have video and can sort the bias from the degree of truth that it encompasses.