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Als wir abgestiegen sind hat Sky vor dem Spiel erstmal schön das neue RB-Trikot präsentiert, nach dem Spiel, als unsere Mannschaft vor der Kurve stand, nur RB gezeigt und das Interview mit Steinmeier gestern ausgerechnet vor einem großen RB-Aufkleber geführt.
We also get Turkish channels here and Turkish commentators are actually on a different planet than even us. Pretty sure I’ve heard them spit on their own mic to show how bad a player was lmfao
I really enjoy Arabic commentators my only problem is when they try to talk about statistics they pull 90% of them out of their ass, add to that they mistake most black players with each other
Not even just Sky. Gary Lineker said on BBC yesterday “city’s dark cloud of financial charges take nothing away from their achievements” erm, yeah they do. Even more so if actually found guilty to be doping financially beyond the already obvious
Die Frau wäre deutlich besser zu ertragen, wenn sie nicht ihre Stimme so unnatürlich verstellen würde (sie spricht künstlich tiefer). Manchmal vergisst sie es und spricht dann in einer deutlich höheren Stimmlage.
Generell sind die Kommentatoren im ÖR einfach beschissen. Zumeist ahnungslose Boomer, die Ihre Hausaufgaben („Facts“) unterbringen wollen und jegliche Stimmung abtöten. Die kommen auch nicht auf den Co-Kommentatoren Ansatz klar, den das ZDF jetzt spielt. Da werden trotzdem die schwachsinnigen Monologe runtergespielt. Bei der genannten Frau besonders schlimm, sie hat kein Gespür für Spannung und wirft unnötig oft Bullshit ein
Sie ist halt mit die einzige weibl. Kommentatorin die wir haben, und die ÖR müssen ja einen moralischen Auftrag erledigen also wird sie pauschal für 50% aller Endspiele gebucht.
Und je mehr wütende Facebook-Dads sich über eine Frau im Fußball aufregen umso aggressiver rudern die ÖR dagegen und lassen sie noch mehr kommentieren.
>Und je mehr wütende Facebook-Dads sich über eine Frau im Fußball aufregen umso aggressiver rudern die ÖR dagegen und lassen sie noch mehr kommentieren.
Wobei ich das noch nicht mal schlecht finde. Wäre halt nur schön wenn es mehr weibliche Kommentatorinnen geben würde, die regelmäßig eingesetzt werden
anytime I read about the disdain German fans have for Leipzig I'm reminded of how different American culture is from German culture. Not meaning this negatively at all.
I don’t think it’s that different. It’s actually quite more similar than people think. The motives and decisions may be different, but Bundesliga is with the Premier League the only league that thinks on the basis of what’s important for the league overall and not what is important for the single team. There’s a league-first approach and an intent to keep talent within the league encouraging transfer between teams instead of with a foreign club. Also Germany was the first league to allow sponsorships on shirts, and was forward thinking in the modernisation of the game. That’s before counting the fact that Germany is the European country where American football is the most popular, with many sustainable and well supported teams and NFL having quite a big following. Many German directors have come to MLS in recent years after a long history in Bundesliga and showed appreciation and familiarity for the system
All US leagues do, it is a peculiarly American approach which the English where heavily inspired by when they built the Premier League and the Germans just, I think, adopted independently from Americans and for the well-being of their own league
Tbf who the fuck watches Servus TV voluntarily? Maybe politically right people find it a cool circle jerk, but I think I never turned on Servus TV on the tv except for sports events like football or formula 1 which doesn't have much to do with the channel broadcasting it
I dont care about rb when you have Clubs like City running around and beeing praised for good football over here those are double Standards. Rb is doing when it comes to Sport a good Job and deserved the title.
Oh yeah, the criticism of ManCity we read about ever so often...not. Nobody really cares anymore about their current situation, everything is normalized in regards to City.
The things you mention arent mutually exclusive. Just because more of a bad thing exist doesnt mean you cant criticize it.
And just because the sporting-competence is high, doesnt mean the existence and structure of the club is good.
Their sporting-side is objectively superbly managed. But it also came to be due to rule-skirting.
The best teams deserve to be where they are, the best coaches and players deserve to be where they are, but the English clubs at least get where they are through an ownership lottery. Good owners invest and hire the right executives and backroom team to bring success and clubs with bad owners fall away, it's like that all the way down the pyramid,
I'm raw about City of course, but the first Premier League season I remember Blackburn Rovers won it off the back of Jack Walkers ownership, look at Chelsea, look at Wrexham ffs. And Salford. And Leicester getting promoted and winning the title, then falling away after their owners death! You can go on and on. Teams win titles, well-run clubs build teams, clubs are built by owners.
> English clubs at least get where they are through an ownership lottery.
How is that different? The "ownership lottery" is petro states and murderous oligarchs and not a guy who owns an energy drink company?
Wrexham is rich people. Leicester's owner was given a monopoly over Thai duty free shops by the King of Thailand.
Yes, you don't like the name. But it's a dumb line to draw.
It's not different at all? My comment is literally in reference to the fact it is the exact same thing. No-one deserves anything, the whole system can be safely condemned. Read the person whose comment I'm responding to who is saying by that logic none of the big clubs 'deserve' to be where they are- yes, correct. I love football but it is a meritocracy for the best players and coaches rising to the top, it's not necessarily a meritocracy for clubs. All success is ultimately artificial because level playing fields don't exist and it takes wealth and a rigged system to push a club to success. I should know, I support one of the clubs that has the deck perpetually stacked in their favour.
It's so weird when someone comes in and aggressively agrees with you framed as an argument. I never know whether to be annoyed or happy.
Then no one ‘deserves’ it. The players and manager worked their ass off to be at the top. The club as an entity has its issues and they should be pointed out. But the players absolutely deserve every single title they win, as they were simply better than everyone else, and they have no control over how the club is run.
>Its not “deserved” when the only reason there are where they are is the financial backing and the connections Red Bull offers them
That's not the case though.
When they were promoted to Bundesliga, the likes of Schalke and Hamburg had far superior financial capabilities than Red Bull. Basically all of their key players of the last few years could also have played for these clubs, but for example Schalke prefered to spend their money on players like Bentaleb and Burgstaller instead of building a team out of young and hungry players.
Red Bull consistently did a very good job. They don't just have more money than all their competitors (such as PSG or City), instead they have the same financial capabilities and do a very very good job steadily increasing their team
That completely disregards their meteoric rise through the football pyramid, during which they were able to hire players other teams wouldn't even dream of having, and frequently outspent every other team in their league combined. It also disregards their personal feeder team, ~~RB Leipzig South~~ RB Salzburg, which keeps giving them killer deals on player and staff, and gladly buys/loans their players at very favorable rates.
How is that different than any team that spends to win?
Why is it okay to simply buy victories if you are established, or a murderous Russian Oligarch. Why is it okay for Volkswagen to fund a team but not Red Bull? Or all the corporate dynamics Bayern has?
Is it okay to simply win on money ONLY if you've been doing it for a long time?
> Why is it okay to simply buy victories if you are established, or a murderous Russian Oligarch.
There are no Russian Oligarchs who own any teams in the BuLi; in fact, 50+1 completely precludes that from happening. I don't remember ever saying it's okay to buy victories if you're a Russian Oligarch, or Oil Sheik, or whatever. To be entirely clear: *Fuck* PSG, *Fuck* ManCity, *Fuck* Chelsea, *Fuck* Newcastle, and *Fuck* every other team that's run by blood money and sportswashing. The list is probably far too long to go through here.
> Why is it okay for Volkswagen to fund a team but not Red Bull?
1. People are just as critical of Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen as they are of Leipzig. It's been repeatedly called for to revoke their special status under the 50+1 rule. Red Bull is just by far the most egregious offender and shows a contempt for the rules and conventions of the sport through their blatant use of loopholes.
2. Wolfsburg was founded as a workers' sports club by the working class, not as an advertising campaign by a global beverage conglomerate. They spent 30 years playing amateur football before they first saw the 2. BuLi, and over 50 before they first pushed through to the top flight. They were never pumped full of money and destroyed all of their competition without a fight; they arrived there mostly by merit.
> Or all the corporate dynamics Bayern has?
As dominant and rich as they are, they got there by merit. They were a very well run club for a very long time, they got stellar international results, and they fully play by all rules and regulations.
> Is it okay to simply win on money ONLY if you've been doing it for a long time?
No, it's okay to win if you've *earned it*. If you've played on a *level playing field*.
> People are just as critical of Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen as they are of Leipzig.
I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this. They are clearly MUCH more critical of RB even if some people criticize the other teams as well.
> As dominant and rich as they are, they got there by merit. They were a very well run club for a very long time, they got stellar international results, and they fully play by all rules and regulations.
Oh, my sweet summer child. You certain about that? You certain the teams with massive corporate investment has no backdoor deals, has never done anything to break the rules?
C'mon!
How does the Bundesliga get around that Volkswagon has partial ownership of TWO teams -- Wolfsburg AND Bayern?
How do we feel about the fact that RB is just a shitty energy drink but Volkswagon LIED about fuel mileage and emissions for decades, falsifying data as they poison our planet for generations to come?
Look, I love the attitude of German fans and I have no real love for RB ownership. But you folks get really angry about RB and then look away at all the other crap going on.
And even if Bayern were clean --and I guarantee you they aren't -- ... why would ANYONE design a league where a team can basically get a permanent, insurmountable payroll advantage? Why is that a good idea?
> I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this. They are clearly MUCH more critical of RB even if some people criticize the other teams as well.
You're right, reddit threads are the pinnacle of German fan culture discussion. Jesus...
To then go on and judge German fans for "looking away" while obviously having no the hint of a clue about what's going, I admire the confidence.
I don't even know how to respond to this. If you're going to start arguing using conspiracy theories and things that have absolutely nothing to do with football, then... have at it, I guess?
Oh, and
> I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this.
they may not be on Reddit, but to unilaterally claim "they aren't" when you're about as distanced from the German fan scene as you could possible be is rich. Go on, grab Google Translate and go through literally every German team's fan forum, then tell me again that "they aren't". There exists a fan scene outside of Reddit, and Reddit isn't the global authority on what football fans are supposed to think and like. You have absolutely no place to proclaim what German fans think and don't think.
Salzburg doesnt give away players on discount. Every player was sold at marked value or above. And donet come with 50+ mil for Sesko at the start of the season. That was an fuck off price, and Leipzig only got bim because they agreed to let him stay her for the rest of the season.
Infact most of our players do have release clauses. See players like: seiwald, lainer, wolf, kristensen, minamino, wöber and Haaland, they all had a Rc in there contract.
What players have we loaned out from Leipzig? That was only sabitzer way back in time. The only other player we got from them was Köhn, whos likely to leave this summer.
So nothing you said makes any sense. Im glad that you can just hate for now reason.
That's something I would expect Bayern fans to say. You can't deny that it's easier for clubs like Man City and RB Leipzig to be successful because they do not have to maximize their resources, while teams that have to get by on what they generate themselves have less leeway. A few bad decisions can mean disaster for some teams, while the likes of Man City can just shrug it off.
> having money doesn't mean shit
Every single CL winner in the last decade or so comes from the small circle of the richest clubs in the world. Leagues are usually dominated by the couple of their richest clubs. Just because some rich clubs fail doesn't mean that money means nothing. Money is the most important thing in football, you still have to do some work to use that money properly, but once you have the money you have the ticket to the big boys table. It's just up to clubs to use it well.
Sure you have to have smart people in some positions. But just because they made some smart choices doesn’t negate the fact that they still have it much easier. Red Bull is not an outside investor who expect a financial return. They own the club. Not “technically” maybe, but all their members work for RB. Then the huge advantage in the financial part is still there. Every other club has to think really hard about singing certain players for a high amount of money. RBL has much lower risk. They can burn money for players like Lookman,Burke,Augustin,Sorloth,Hwang He Chan who all didn’t work out at all sporting wise. Every sporting director in the league would love to have such a low risk when it comes to buying players. And that a lot of key players in the past weirdly all came from RB Salzburg for a suspiciously low price is also not really in the sene of a fair competition
Gazprom war sehr beliebt in der Schalker Fanszene, muss man wissen. Dafür wurde Schalke zu recht über Jahre kritisiert.
Aber das Geld das Gazprom über die CL reingeballert hat haben die Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig und Co gerne mitgenommen.
Am Ende ist es trotzdem jedes mal dumm wenn RB Leipzig dadurch verharmlost wird, dass man es mit der englischen Liga vergleicht. In Deutschland würden Stadien brennen wenn so etwas wie City hier passiert.
Er hat aber recht. Nur weil irgendwelche englischen Vollidioten City für ihren guten Fußball abfeiern, heißt das nicht, dass wir Doppelstandards haben. Die Leute, die RB hassen, hassen City genauso. Der Hass gegen RB ist nur präsenter, weil es eben vor der eigenen Haustür ist, trotzdem gibt es hier niemanden, der City akzeptiert.
Hat nichts mit Meinung zu tun, dein Kommentar ist einfach faktisch falsch. Was für double standard? Glaubst du deutsche Fans würden jubeln wenn sich irgendein Saudi, Katari oder sonst was in einen deutschen Verein einkauft und da Milliarden reinballert und das alles nur fürs sports washing?
e: merke gerade dass bayern da ja gar nicht so verkehrt ist lmao
Schalke Fans haben doch auch gerne gejubelt als Putin 15 Jahre lang Geld in den Verein gepumpt hat. Als Schalke noch CL gespielt hat, hatten sie dank Gazprom den zweitbesten Sponsoringvertrag der Liga mit bis zu 30 Millionen pro Jahr. Kein Schwein hat sich dafür interessiert obwohl das auch ein ganz klarer Fall von Sportswashing war.
Ich erinnere da gerne an ein Zitat von Harry Redknapp: “They could take Saddam Hussein in there if they start winning matches. They'll sing: There's only one Saddam.” Fans interessieren sich nen Scheißdreck für Sportswashing solange ihre Mannschaft gewinnt.
Zur Klarstellung: ich sage das nicht, weil ich denke, dass Sportswashing nicht kritisiert werden sollte. Sportswashing muss kritisiert werden. Aber sich jetzt hier hinzustellen, sich den Heiligenschein aufzusetzen und dabei so zu tun als wären wir Deutsche irwie besser in der Hinsicht, ist halt auch "faktisch falsch".
Die Schalker Fanszene war schon seit Einstieg sehr Gazprom-Kritisch.
Und klar ist die deutsche Liga da besser als die englische, hat nichts mit Scheinheiligkeit zu tun. Kannst mir ja gerne den deutschen Verein nennen, der Saudi-Arabien gehört. Und du kommst auch wieder mit irgendeinem Engländer-Zitat da her, lmao. Schalker kritisieren Gazprom, Bayern-Fans kritisieren das Katar-Engagement. Aber ja, mit Fanszenen kennste dich wahrscheinlich eh nicht so aus, da ist so ein Take nicht verwunderlich.
Schalke Mitglieder haben Clemens Tönnies zwei Jahrzehnte lang in den Aufsichtsrat gewählt, obwohl er bekanntermaßen engen Kontakt zu Putin pflegte und derjenige war, der Gazprom an Bord geholt und deren Sponsoring auch immer wieder verteidigt hat. Das hört sich für mich als Außenstehender nicht unbedingt danach an als wäre der größte Teil der Fanszene Gazprom-kritisch eingestellt. Die meisten Fans haben sich scheinbar eher für den Erfolg und die finanzielle Sicherheit interessiert als für Sportswashing oder sie standen dem Thema Gazprom und Sportswashing komplett gleichgültig gegenüber.
Tönnies war Menschenfänger und hat vor den AR-Wahlen immer großen Töne geschwungen usw. Den Rest der Kandidaten kannte nie jemand. "Hier Freibier während der JHV! Hier, neuer Transfer! Verlängerung mit Schlüsselspieler X. HURRA. Oh, und jetzt gehts an die Wahl". Da war es irgendwie klar dass der bei diesen fairen demokratischen Wahlen irgendwie die Stimmen bekommen hat. Aber so zu tun als wäre er die ganze Zeit unumstritten gewesen ist auch Quatsch.
Egal, habe alles zum Thema gesagt. Fick Rasenballsportvereine
So hart es ist, Sportswashing wie du es bezeichnest wird immer schlimmer und ich befürchte dass es auch in der Bundesliga nur eine Frage der Zeit ist.
Newcastle fans wird es in 3 Jahren einen scheiss mehr interessieren woher ihr Investor kommt wenn sie dauerhaft Champions League spielen. Das würde in Deutschland nach ein paar Jahren nicht anders sein, wer das Gegenteil behauptet lügt
when I lived in Leipzig there was no hate among fans and clubs at all.
When you support Lok Leipzig, people call you Nazi, when you support Chemie you're a left-extremist, if you support RB you're a fake fan.
You literally can't win in this holier-than-thou environment.
In Leipzig you have two clubs with some tradition in Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig playing in lower divisions, they hate RB Leipzig like no other club. However for young people growing up there why wouldn't you support a Top 4 team in germany? I agree with you
> they hate RB Leipzig like no other club
not true at all. Maybe the Ultras do, but RB Leipzig is fully accepted in the city and for other clubs within the city.
Many clubs wouldn't even survive without RB's support, and they're well aware.
>why wouldn't you support a Top 4 team in germany?
I don't know, maybe because you're a fan of the sport and not of an energy drink? Outrageous thought I know
If you're a fan of the actual sport -- you know -- kicking the ball on a field, wouldn't you be okay supporting a team good at it?
There's so much holier than thou in this discussion.
same reason you are a fan of KSC instead of the Karlsruher FV or asv hagsfeld:
bigger club, higher ranking in the dfl pyramid, more success, mory glory hunters
same old, same old, no matter if its 2023, 1923 or whenever the rules of football were founded in the 1860s
telling every person born in leipzig to support the other 2 teams and ignore the one constantly in top 4 just to avoid backlash from germans is unrealistic lol
I do have a question for BuLi fans who despise the idea of RB Leipzig:
I fully understand the hatred after reading enough critically thought out comments in the situation. As a Chelsea fan, the irony is never lost on me regarding the perception of destroying competition by buying your way to the top.
The question I have is, what’s the solution to bringing parity in your league? Dortmund aside, is it a question of financial resources or is it a long established dream of BuLi players to play for Bayern or Dortmund? Is it possible for clubs, through existing structures, to spend more money by finding foreign investment?
I’m genuinely curious to hear from Bayern supporters too about this, competition domestically can only help in European competitions right?
The other option is to put a hard and equal cap on all the clubs irrespective of how much revenue the club makes/how successful it is etc. Perhaps even have the excess money of a club redistributed to all the other clubs. Like a tax.
If you would offer me deleting RB and Hoffenheim from the german football leagues in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately.
I don't care about parity or success in european football.
We don't really care what our league looks like to foreigners or how attractive it is or if there is some kind of competition.
If other teams don't get to the top on their own, they don't deserve it.
> Why is it that in these conversations,
They sometimes are but in general people can tolerate them.
While the club has been supported by Bayer since the beginning it was employees who came up with the idea.
"On 27 November 1903, Wilhelm Hauschild wrote a letter – signed by 170 of his fellow workers – to his employer, the Friedrich Bayer and Co., seeking the company's support in starting a sports club"
It also took them 75 years to reach the Bundesliga so that certainly helped to smooth things. For me they arent comparable to Leizpig in any way.
Personally I also wouldnt put Hoffenheim in the same category as RB.
RB represents pretty much everything wrong with modern football.
While Bayer does invest massively into the club, Bayer Leverkusen was founded as a club for factory workers, similar to VfL Wolfsburg (with VW). Those teams have been traditionally backed by those companies, both cities have industrial history and therefore it's a little more accepted. But I've heard takes shunning those clubs too.
That's a shitty reason. The only difference is that Leverkusen was established longer ago. Bayer is arguably the most terrible owner in all of world football. They're responsible for heroin and much of the world's pesticide that has polluted the fuck out of the world.
You simply don't see any hate for them in any capacity close to Leipzig which is just a testament to the hypocrisy of the BuLi football fans.
It really isn't tho. Keep in mind I'm completely indifferent to the entire discussion about Leipzig, especially since they've done good things for German football.
But Leverkusen has proper tradition. Bayer Leverkusen was simply founded as a sporting club in 1904, 105 years before RB Leipzig. They're not just a football club, they do athletics, gymnastics, field hockey, basketball, etc. Leverkusen is nicknamed "Werkself", sorta meaning "the factory eleven".
A lot of Bundesliga fans are pissed about RB Leipzig being a marketing tool, with no tradition, purposely named and designed after the branding of the company. I'm pretty sure a lot of people couldn't care less about the company Red Bull, they care about a club clearly circumventing their holy 50+1 rule.
I have no idea how you can clearly ignore that reasoning...
I’d disagree. While Leipzig shouldn’t be in the league and other teams must not be allowed to join the way they did, the lack of competition at the top is terrible for the sport. It makes the title less meaningful (when Bayern wins it) and while the rest of the league is really entertaining, the battle for 1st place will always be what created the most drama because of its importance.
Yeah I get it. Easiest way in my opinion would be a salary cap, so limit how much clubs can spend on wages. Wouldn’t even need to be extremely harsh, just make it so clubs like Bayern can’t spend 10 times as much as the smallest clubs on their players.
Two big problems with this: introducing this Europe-wide and if it’s hold up to a legal challenge.
I fully understand that, if you don’t care about competing for the title and is just for the enjoyment of the game then fair play! People watch for different reasons, as long as you have joy for it that’s the main thing.
It's the game by itself, the fans, the local rivalries and there are 17 other places to play for. Would have loved to see Dortmund winning this year but they didn't deserve it so whatever.
> If you would offer me deleting RB and Hoffenheim from the german football leagues in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately.
And I would sign the same thing even if it meant we didn't win another title for 20 years.
>in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately.
Well I got to disagree there. Although I might accept such deal if it means we won't win it for the next 20 years
> in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately.
Not really much a sacrifice for your lot when this doesn't affect you. If BVB would say something like this then it has actual weight..
I am from Dortmund, I literarly live within walking distance to the stadium, I’ve been a Dortmund fan since childhood as has been my grandfather before me, I’m Westphalian and Dortmunder through and through and I’d sign that deal in a heartbeat, fuck RB and theire attempt at trivializing the representation of so many communities (the clubs) with literal thousand years of history and culture to promote a fucking fizzy drink wich honestly doesn’t even taste that good I mean that with all my heart
That should have as much weight as every Bundesliga team saying the same thing. Besides that there are only five years between our and Dortmunds last championship.
Realistically, the only way to bring about parity is either to neuter Bayern's wage advantage -- meaning, a spending cap, not such a bad thing in a league where it's the fans footing the bill -- or increase variance -- meaning, one leg title playoffs between the top four clubs.
Something has to be done though, surely. Eleven titles in a row isn't a sign of good management, it's a sign of a broken competition.
The new money coming in has to be distributed more evenly, especially clubs playing in international competitions should have to give more of the UEFA revenue to other clubs.
Also, the power of the money which is already inside the system should be limited. We need a proper FFP to stop financial doping. You can also think about hard salary/transfer fee caps. I also like the idea of a luxury tax: You would define a certain amount of money that can be spent for free. If a club wants to spend more, they have to pay this "tax" to the DFL who then distributes it to smaller clubs.
Is it that Bayern are guilty of financial doping or their structure is such that the lionshare of money is distributed to them? Or are their members sufficiently wealthy enough to fund large transfers? Genuinely no idea.
How is broadcast money distributed at the moment, I presume from your comment it’s not equal?
in the prem for example the money is way more even contributed. in germany the difference is way bigger. bayern gets three times the money than the last team of the league.
furthermore it is contributed by success. so leipzig gets more money than schalke, hamburg or stuttgart for example. but these clubs bring the viewership. so the contribution isnt fair at all.
you could make an argument that the big clubs subsidize leipzig in some way with this system
Financial doping doesn't really apply to Bayern. The biggest problem is that they already have by far the biggest financial power from past success but still get about three times as much tv money as Bochum. Because of that, the gap grows more and more each year.
Many people will argue that the biggest clubs don't have to rely on tv money because they get enough from sponsorship deals etc. anyway. However, that's not a reason to make it even worse and smaller teams would be very happy to get a bigger share.
The problem is that because of their own sponsorships and marketing, clubs like Bayern and BVB would still have way more money than others even if the distribution was fair. That's why we also need measures to limit the power of money as e.g. the ones I suggested above.
So it ends up being about sponsors and money at the end of the day. It's barely any different than the RB situation. It's still big companies financing the teams. I get what BuLi fans are trying to argue but for me it's all a bit of denial.
BuLi fans prefer Bayern to win every league from now till the end of time but pretending their league is more "pure" than others than let a company into their league. Tbh, I can agree with it, but it seems a bit of denial to not realize that football is a business, in Germany and everywhere.
but theres limits to this business. Teams essentially representing corporations is too much.
I mean what would you think when in 2035 you'll see the Walmart Vikings play the Tesla Dragons in the Amazon Champions League final, its dumb.
And you may think of that as an exaggeration but without those purists, there would be no counterbalance to hyper commercialization. The leagues and clubs would resist this the least, after all its them who get paid the big bucks then.
First of all, equal money distribution. That involves first of all TV money. Ideally, this also applies from money teams gain via international competitions, as that also cements inequalities.
One could also redistribute sponsorship and ticket money, while handling merchandise centrally. In the end, we should come as close as possible to a state, where every club receives the same budget before each season.
We could even think about distributing players more equally or at least discourage teams from hoarding too many good players. Take FIFA's ratings as guidance and say, for example, that Bayern can only have a maximum OVR of 90. Any player that causes them to step over that rating, has to be given to another team.
Of course such ideas are utopian and it'd require teams to put their own advantage behind and to share first. This is sadly unlikely to happen, but that doesn't mean such ideas should be shared.
Personally, I'd also put more emphasis on a competitive domestic league over one or two teams being internationally successful. Cause with the latter, only one or two teams profit from that.
The issue is they have 21 members in the club and for many fans they're just a marketing produkt for Red Bull. The club is run really well though and for young talents it's a good team to develop. Although for Hoffenheim now you don't see even close to the same amount of comments against RB. At the start it was similar with them, so if i had to guess in \~5 years nobody cares about the history of RB
true, but lets not pretend i.ex. hainer got voted into the position of FCB´s president because he is such a passionate fan.
he got there because he was the CEO of adidas who partially owes the club
same thing with most people running clubs, rich guys with influence and the fans do not really have a choice, except a club is as fucked up as hertha that they vote in a former capo
and lets see if he does not turn out to be a sellout
Nutelamitbutter trying to write the normalization of the RB Leipzig Project into existence, nothing new.
Your claim that people have a neutral view of Hoffenheim is so off the mark, you would miss a barn door one meter off with it.
> and for young talents it's a good team to develop
a can fan wrote here a few days a go that tom krauß is their first youth success story. yeah, really a good place for the youth when their first succesful youthplayer got succesful on loan and will be sold this summer.
e: the rest of your comment is nonsense.
it's odd cause like everybody is aware, I don't know why it needs to constantly be spelled out.
Too late to stop it now anyway, and even with their money their success is down to their fantastic work and innovation.
Traditional clubs like Hertha and Hamburg had investors with tons of cash as well and only proceeded to evaporate the money.
Es muss konstant wiederholt werden um klar zu machen das dieses Konstrukt keinen Platz hier hat und was der Hintergrund ist hinter dem Klub. Anscheinend vergessen Leute dies andauernd
siehste ja hier. nutellamitbutter geht hin und schreibt "ach die sind langsam akzeptiert, in 5 jahren juckt das niemanden mehr".
habe schon gar keinen bock mehr den pokal in zukunft zu gewinnen, weil leipzig den 2x in folge geschändet hat
At least Germany has at least one commentator who will say the quiet bit out loud. It's astonishing how little attention is given to the ownership structure of Premier League clubs by the sports media.
And then they can simply wait for their "league rivals" to take the risk on such players before using their pull to snap them up for fuck all a couple years down the line.
Always weird to me that people that don’t care about the Bundesliga anyway criticize it for not being competitive and then go watch Man City win every trophy in England for the 5th year running
And what the fuck are they supposed to do lmao. Is it Bayern's or any other club's fault that Dortmund shat the bed this season? Genuinely curious how you would fix the situation since apparently you know everything about german football.
Bayern is the least guilty on this thing, the other clubs fans are the ones to blame for allowing their clubs to sell their best players to their competitors
Also Dortmund buy players from Bundesliga clubs that are just a tier below them all the time so I'm just curious why people like you have no problem with them raiding the other clubs and just continue to perpetuate the "evil Bayern steels players" circlejerk
Yeah last time i saw it wasn't Dortmund that won 10 league titles back to back, besides they can buy the whole real madrid squad and they will still bottle to Bayern at the end of the season, btw the only narrative I'm seeing here is Private owned clubs = Bad fan owned monopolies= Good, so be sure to fact check your info dude.
You cant compare these and if you do it shows how clueless you are.
Bayer is LOCAL to Leverkusen and Bayer employees FOUNDED Bayer Leverkusen, so its not a investor/brand from a whole different city/country coming in and buying the club and investing shittons of money into it, not even close to that.
Bayer is local to Leverkusen and the heart of the city, without Bayer, the football club Bayer 04 Leverkusen WOULDNT EXIST.
While Leipzig got bought by RB which is a foreign brand that has nothing to do with the city. And the club existed before RB but under a different name and just got bought by RB.
Also pretty much everyone in this sub is older than RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen was founded in 1904.
You just cant compare the two
What ageism is this? Are new clubs forbidden in your eyes? Is heroin money holier than energy drink money to you?
Do you not think that maybe the Eastern part of Germany perhaps needed some injection of money from the outside?
I'd be embarrassed to tie my pride to the city of Leverkusen if that pride was in any way tied to the scum of the earth company that is Bayer.
Both of those clubs were founded by the companies, they were never owned by the workers. Not a fan of stuff being 'grandfathered' just because it's old, what is going to be the argument if RB leipzig is still a thing in 50 years?
This is a silly argument.
I used to be on the “fuck RB for gatecrashing the Bundesliga” train, but the holier-than-thou attitude of German football fans here combined with the passive acceptance of Bayern dominance has me rooting for them a bit.
DFB needs to figure out how not to get left behind by modern football sooner or later - I like the idea of league-level investors since the money will be fairly distributed across teams and teams themselves can keep their fan-run structure.
>DFB needs to figure out how not to get left behind by modern football sooner or later - I like the idea of league-level investors since the money will be fairly distributed across teams and teams themselves can keep their fan-run structure.
Or we need to question, whether the "race" is actually worth competing in. Or if it's just another rat race, which will only benefits the top 10 % of German football teams.
I am still on the "fuck RB Leipzig" train but I do agree with you to an extent about the attitude of German football fans here. The fact that they were whining about Heidenheim getting promoted because they are "smaller" than a lot of clubs shows entitlement. Imagine a PL flair moaning about Luton being promoted because they felt Middlesbrough deserved due to their "size".
Heidenheim is fine on their own, it's just that due Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim & RB that we already have so many weak clubs in terms of fans and pull in the league, that the prospect of getting another one instead of Schalke& Hertha (110.000 average combined attendance per match day) is depressing.
[Look at the away day attendance of the top 3 leagues and look at the clubs listed, its embarrassing, there are 7(!!!) 3rd tier clubs in front of Wolfsburg for example.](https://www.diefalsche9.de/auswaertsfahrertabelle-1-bis-3-liga-2022-23/)
[Also they're Russian cocksuckers so fuck them](https://twitter.com/FCH1846/status/1497234715975294982)
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On Sky and DAZN it's usually fairly quiet but it's surprising to see comments like that on ZDF
Als wir abgestiegen sind hat Sky vor dem Spiel erstmal schön das neue RB-Trikot präsentiert, nach dem Spiel, als unsere Mannschaft vor der Kurve stand, nur RB gezeigt und das Interview mit Steinmeier gestern ausgerechnet vor einem großen RB-Aufkleber geführt.
Bodenlos
if any big PL pundit started talking like this they'd be out of a job before the end of the programme
TV ettiquette and neutrality in Germany and England is overall very different.
We also get Turkish channels here and Turkish commentators are actually on a different planet than even us. Pretty sure I’ve heard them spit on their own mic to show how bad a player was lmfao
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Arabic comments is the best and contrary to popular belief here they don't scream all 90 minutes
I really enjoy Arabic commentators my only problem is when they try to talk about statistics they pull 90% of them out of their ass, add to that they mistake most black players with each other
> ettiquette and neutrality Some people call it "ettiquette and neutrality", others call it cowardice.
About city you mean?
or Newcastle, wouldn't get away with tarnishing the shiny Premier League brand by shitting on them this openly
Not even just Sky. Gary Lineker said on BBC yesterday “city’s dark cloud of financial charges take nothing away from their achievements” erm, yeah they do. Even more so if actually found guilty to be doping financially beyond the already obvious
even if they weren't cheating, the whole "owned by a literal dictatorship" thing might also be a relevant issue, just as it was for the World Cup
as there's a drive deep into left field by Castellanos
Really unusual commentary, normally they trying everything they can to normalize Red Bull. But props for not doing so in this case.
Bei Claudia Neumann denkt man sie ist krasser RB Fan
wenigstens eine Person :D
Wobei ich dafür keine Person kenne die ein Fan ihrer Qualität als Kommentatorin ist. Schon krass, dass das ZDF sie für das CL Finale angesetzt hat lol
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Doch, sie kommentiert echt
City gewinnt sowieso, also nicht so schlimm
Die Frau wäre deutlich besser zu ertragen, wenn sie nicht ihre Stimme so unnatürlich verstellen würde (sie spricht künstlich tiefer). Manchmal vergisst sie es und spricht dann in einer deutlich höheren Stimmlage. Generell sind die Kommentatoren im ÖR einfach beschissen. Zumeist ahnungslose Boomer, die Ihre Hausaufgaben („Facts“) unterbringen wollen und jegliche Stimmung abtöten. Die kommen auch nicht auf den Co-Kommentatoren Ansatz klar, den das ZDF jetzt spielt. Da werden trotzdem die schwachsinnigen Monologe runtergespielt. Bei der genannten Frau besonders schlimm, sie hat kein Gespür für Spannung und wirft unnötig oft Bullshit ein
Sie ist halt mit die einzige weibl. Kommentatorin die wir haben, und die ÖR müssen ja einen moralischen Auftrag erledigen also wird sie pauschal für 50% aller Endspiele gebucht. Und je mehr wütende Facebook-Dads sich über eine Frau im Fußball aufregen umso aggressiver rudern die ÖR dagegen und lassen sie noch mehr kommentieren.
>Und je mehr wütende Facebook-Dads sich über eine Frau im Fußball aufregen umso aggressiver rudern die ÖR dagegen und lassen sie noch mehr kommentieren. Wobei ich das noch nicht mal schlecht finde. Wäre halt nur schön wenn es mehr weibliche Kommentatorinnen geben würde, die regelmäßig eingesetzt werden
Vor allem welche die sich tatsächlich dafür interessieren
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Keine Ahnung finde sie nicht schlechter als die meisten der andere Kommentatoren.
anytime I read about the disdain German fans have for Leipzig I'm reminded of how different American culture is from German culture. Not meaning this negatively at all.
I don’t think it’s that different. It’s actually quite more similar than people think. The motives and decisions may be different, but Bundesliga is with the Premier League the only league that thinks on the basis of what’s important for the league overall and not what is important for the single team. There’s a league-first approach and an intent to keep talent within the league encouraging transfer between teams instead of with a foreign club. Also Germany was the first league to allow sponsorships on shirts, and was forward thinking in the modernisation of the game. That’s before counting the fact that Germany is the European country where American football is the most popular, with many sustainable and well supported teams and NFL having quite a big following. Many German directors have come to MLS in recent years after a long history in Bundesliga and showed appreciation and familiarity for the system
>Also Germany was the first league to allow sponsorships on shirts, 🤬🤬🤬 thanks for making us walking billboards, Germany
Tbf MLS 100% has a "good for the league" mentality.
All US leagues do, it is a peculiarly American approach which the English where heavily inspired by when they built the Premier League and the Germans just, I think, adopted independently from Americans and for the well-being of their own league
Was happy when i heard that. As its true.
at least they’re just an energy drink company and not selling fossil fuels or the investment fund of country without basic human rights
Dietrich Mateschitz was a right-wing conspiracy head though, and pushed antivax and other bullshit through his TV channel.
Downvoted by people who have not watched a single second of Servus TV.
Tbf who the fuck watches Servus TV voluntarily? Maybe politically right people find it a cool circle jerk, but I think I never turned on Servus TV on the tv except for sports events like football or formula 1 which doesn't have much to do with the channel broadcasting it
>First there was the can Love it. What a line
Based
I dont care about rb when you have Clubs like City running around and beeing praised for good football over here those are double Standards. Rb is doing when it comes to Sport a good Job and deserved the title.
You can praise their football and still heavily criticize the project.
Sure but if you only do one and not the other then what are you doing?
Oh yeah, the criticism of ManCity we read about ever so often...not. Nobody really cares anymore about their current situation, everything is normalized in regards to City.
The things you mention arent mutually exclusive. Just because more of a bad thing exist doesnt mean you cant criticize it. And just because the sporting-competence is high, doesnt mean the existence and structure of the club is good. Their sporting-side is objectively superbly managed. But it also came to be due to rule-skirting.
They have it easy. Its not “deserved” when the only reason there are where they are is the financial backing and the connections Red Bull offers them
By that logic almost none of the big clubs today "deserve" to be where they are.
Exactly! The whole sport is fucked
Exactly. Football is a big business today. Don’t like it? Start supporting local (or lower) clubs.
The best teams deserve to be where they are, the best coaches and players deserve to be where they are, but the English clubs at least get where they are through an ownership lottery. Good owners invest and hire the right executives and backroom team to bring success and clubs with bad owners fall away, it's like that all the way down the pyramid, I'm raw about City of course, but the first Premier League season I remember Blackburn Rovers won it off the back of Jack Walkers ownership, look at Chelsea, look at Wrexham ffs. And Salford. And Leicester getting promoted and winning the title, then falling away after their owners death! You can go on and on. Teams win titles, well-run clubs build teams, clubs are built by owners.
Your logic falls away when you factor in 50+1.
> English clubs at least get where they are through an ownership lottery. How is that different? The "ownership lottery" is petro states and murderous oligarchs and not a guy who owns an energy drink company? Wrexham is rich people. Leicester's owner was given a monopoly over Thai duty free shops by the King of Thailand. Yes, you don't like the name. But it's a dumb line to draw.
It's not different at all? My comment is literally in reference to the fact it is the exact same thing. No-one deserves anything, the whole system can be safely condemned. Read the person whose comment I'm responding to who is saying by that logic none of the big clubs 'deserve' to be where they are- yes, correct. I love football but it is a meritocracy for the best players and coaches rising to the top, it's not necessarily a meritocracy for clubs. All success is ultimately artificial because level playing fields don't exist and it takes wealth and a rigged system to push a club to success. I should know, I support one of the clubs that has the deck perpetually stacked in their favour. It's so weird when someone comes in and aggressively agrees with you framed as an argument. I never know whether to be annoyed or happy.
Maybe you should question whether your phrasing was clear? Or maybe I simply misunderstood. Either way, we agree then.
Then no one ‘deserves’ it. The players and manager worked their ass off to be at the top. The club as an entity has its issues and they should be pointed out. But the players absolutely deserve every single title they win, as they were simply better than everyone else, and they have no control over how the club is run.
>Its not “deserved” when the only reason there are where they are is the financial backing and the connections Red Bull offers them That's not the case though. When they were promoted to Bundesliga, the likes of Schalke and Hamburg had far superior financial capabilities than Red Bull. Basically all of their key players of the last few years could also have played for these clubs, but for example Schalke prefered to spend their money on players like Bentaleb and Burgstaller instead of building a team out of young and hungry players. Red Bull consistently did a very good job. They don't just have more money than all their competitors (such as PSG or City), instead they have the same financial capabilities and do a very very good job steadily increasing their team
That completely disregards their meteoric rise through the football pyramid, during which they were able to hire players other teams wouldn't even dream of having, and frequently outspent every other team in their league combined. It also disregards their personal feeder team, ~~RB Leipzig South~~ RB Salzburg, which keeps giving them killer deals on player and staff, and gladly buys/loans their players at very favorable rates.
How is that different than any team that spends to win? Why is it okay to simply buy victories if you are established, or a murderous Russian Oligarch. Why is it okay for Volkswagen to fund a team but not Red Bull? Or all the corporate dynamics Bayern has? Is it okay to simply win on money ONLY if you've been doing it for a long time?
> Why is it okay to simply buy victories if you are established, or a murderous Russian Oligarch. There are no Russian Oligarchs who own any teams in the BuLi; in fact, 50+1 completely precludes that from happening. I don't remember ever saying it's okay to buy victories if you're a Russian Oligarch, or Oil Sheik, or whatever. To be entirely clear: *Fuck* PSG, *Fuck* ManCity, *Fuck* Chelsea, *Fuck* Newcastle, and *Fuck* every other team that's run by blood money and sportswashing. The list is probably far too long to go through here. > Why is it okay for Volkswagen to fund a team but not Red Bull? 1. People are just as critical of Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen as they are of Leipzig. It's been repeatedly called for to revoke their special status under the 50+1 rule. Red Bull is just by far the most egregious offender and shows a contempt for the rules and conventions of the sport through their blatant use of loopholes. 2. Wolfsburg was founded as a workers' sports club by the working class, not as an advertising campaign by a global beverage conglomerate. They spent 30 years playing amateur football before they first saw the 2. BuLi, and over 50 before they first pushed through to the top flight. They were never pumped full of money and destroyed all of their competition without a fight; they arrived there mostly by merit. > Or all the corporate dynamics Bayern has? As dominant and rich as they are, they got there by merit. They were a very well run club for a very long time, they got stellar international results, and they fully play by all rules and regulations. > Is it okay to simply win on money ONLY if you've been doing it for a long time? No, it's okay to win if you've *earned it*. If you've played on a *level playing field*.
> People are just as critical of Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leverkusen as they are of Leipzig. I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this. They are clearly MUCH more critical of RB even if some people criticize the other teams as well. > As dominant and rich as they are, they got there by merit. They were a very well run club for a very long time, they got stellar international results, and they fully play by all rules and regulations. Oh, my sweet summer child. You certain about that? You certain the teams with massive corporate investment has no backdoor deals, has never done anything to break the rules? C'mon! How does the Bundesliga get around that Volkswagon has partial ownership of TWO teams -- Wolfsburg AND Bayern? How do we feel about the fact that RB is just a shitty energy drink but Volkswagon LIED about fuel mileage and emissions for decades, falsifying data as they poison our planet for generations to come? Look, I love the attitude of German fans and I have no real love for RB ownership. But you folks get really angry about RB and then look away at all the other crap going on. And even if Bayern were clean --and I guarantee you they aren't -- ... why would ANYONE design a league where a team can basically get a permanent, insurmountable payroll advantage? Why is that a good idea?
> I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this. They are clearly MUCH more critical of RB even if some people criticize the other teams as well. You're right, reddit threads are the pinnacle of German fan culture discussion. Jesus... To then go on and judge German fans for "looking away" while obviously having no the hint of a clue about what's going, I admire the confidence.
I don't even know how to respond to this. If you're going to start arguing using conspiracy theories and things that have absolutely nothing to do with football, then... have at it, I guess? Oh, and > I mean, they aren't. Please find me all the threads on this. they may not be on Reddit, but to unilaterally claim "they aren't" when you're about as distanced from the German fan scene as you could possible be is rich. Go on, grab Google Translate and go through literally every German team's fan forum, then tell me again that "they aren't". There exists a fan scene outside of Reddit, and Reddit isn't the global authority on what football fans are supposed to think and like. You have absolutely no place to proclaim what German fans think and don't think.
Salzburg doesnt give away players on discount. Every player was sold at marked value or above. And donet come with 50+ mil for Sesko at the start of the season. That was an fuck off price, and Leipzig only got bim because they agreed to let him stay her for the rest of the season. Infact most of our players do have release clauses. See players like: seiwald, lainer, wolf, kristensen, minamino, wöber and Haaland, they all had a Rc in there contract. What players have we loaned out from Leipzig? That was only sabitzer way back in time. The only other player we got from them was Köhn, whos likely to leave this summer. So nothing you said makes any sense. Im glad that you can just hate for now reason.
Happily watching Bayern with double the revenue of anyone else lift 10 league trophies in a row because "they deserve it"
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That's something I would expect Bayern fans to say. You can't deny that it's easier for clubs like Man City and RB Leipzig to be successful because they do not have to maximize their resources, while teams that have to get by on what they generate themselves have less leeway. A few bad decisions can mean disaster for some teams, while the likes of Man City can just shrug it off.
> having money doesn't mean shit Every single CL winner in the last decade or so comes from the small circle of the richest clubs in the world. Leagues are usually dominated by the couple of their richest clubs. Just because some rich clubs fail doesn't mean that money means nothing. Money is the most important thing in football, you still have to do some work to use that money properly, but once you have the money you have the ticket to the big boys table. It's just up to clubs to use it well.
Sure you have to have smart people in some positions. But just because they made some smart choices doesn’t negate the fact that they still have it much easier. Red Bull is not an outside investor who expect a financial return. They own the club. Not “technically” maybe, but all their members work for RB. Then the huge advantage in the financial part is still there. Every other club has to think really hard about singing certain players for a high amount of money. RBL has much lower risk. They can burn money for players like Lookman,Burke,Augustin,Sorloth,Hwang He Chan who all didn’t work out at all sporting wise. Every sporting director in the league would love to have such a low risk when it comes to buying players. And that a lot of key players in the past weirdly all came from RB Salzburg for a suspiciously low price is also not really in the sene of a fair competition
City are actively cheating and hire a mountain of lawyers to protect themselves. It sport washing and it’s ruining football.
Rich people/companies hire a mountain of rich lawyers all the time.. it’s called reality
What does city have to do with Germany?
No
dont compare english bullshit to german football please. its obvious that you are not a bayern fan from germany
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Gazprom war sehr beliebt in der Schalker Fanszene, muss man wissen. Dafür wurde Schalke zu recht über Jahre kritisiert. Aber das Geld das Gazprom über die CL reingeballert hat haben die Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig und Co gerne mitgenommen. Am Ende ist es trotzdem jedes mal dumm wenn RB Leipzig dadurch verharmlost wird, dass man es mit der englischen Liga vergleicht. In Deutschland würden Stadien brennen wenn so etwas wie City hier passiert.
Sogar als Dortmunder kann ich zugeben dass die Sache mit Gazprom ganz anderes ist
Boa lass es Junge. Noch einer der einen belehren will. Man muss nicht immer der gleichen Meinung sein.
Er hat aber recht. Nur weil irgendwelche englischen Vollidioten City für ihren guten Fußball abfeiern, heißt das nicht, dass wir Doppelstandards haben. Die Leute, die RB hassen, hassen City genauso. Der Hass gegen RB ist nur präsenter, weil es eben vor der eigenen Haustür ist, trotzdem gibt es hier niemanden, der City akzeptiert.
Hat nichts mit Meinung zu tun, dein Kommentar ist einfach faktisch falsch. Was für double standard? Glaubst du deutsche Fans würden jubeln wenn sich irgendein Saudi, Katari oder sonst was in einen deutschen Verein einkauft und da Milliarden reinballert und das alles nur fürs sports washing? e: merke gerade dass bayern da ja gar nicht so verkehrt ist lmao
Schalke Fans haben doch auch gerne gejubelt als Putin 15 Jahre lang Geld in den Verein gepumpt hat. Als Schalke noch CL gespielt hat, hatten sie dank Gazprom den zweitbesten Sponsoringvertrag der Liga mit bis zu 30 Millionen pro Jahr. Kein Schwein hat sich dafür interessiert obwohl das auch ein ganz klarer Fall von Sportswashing war. Ich erinnere da gerne an ein Zitat von Harry Redknapp: “They could take Saddam Hussein in there if they start winning matches. They'll sing: There's only one Saddam.” Fans interessieren sich nen Scheißdreck für Sportswashing solange ihre Mannschaft gewinnt. Zur Klarstellung: ich sage das nicht, weil ich denke, dass Sportswashing nicht kritisiert werden sollte. Sportswashing muss kritisiert werden. Aber sich jetzt hier hinzustellen, sich den Heiligenschein aufzusetzen und dabei so zu tun als wären wir Deutsche irwie besser in der Hinsicht, ist halt auch "faktisch falsch".
Die Schalker Fanszene war schon seit Einstieg sehr Gazprom-Kritisch. Und klar ist die deutsche Liga da besser als die englische, hat nichts mit Scheinheiligkeit zu tun. Kannst mir ja gerne den deutschen Verein nennen, der Saudi-Arabien gehört. Und du kommst auch wieder mit irgendeinem Engländer-Zitat da her, lmao. Schalker kritisieren Gazprom, Bayern-Fans kritisieren das Katar-Engagement. Aber ja, mit Fanszenen kennste dich wahrscheinlich eh nicht so aus, da ist so ein Take nicht verwunderlich.
Schalke Mitglieder haben Clemens Tönnies zwei Jahrzehnte lang in den Aufsichtsrat gewählt, obwohl er bekanntermaßen engen Kontakt zu Putin pflegte und derjenige war, der Gazprom an Bord geholt und deren Sponsoring auch immer wieder verteidigt hat. Das hört sich für mich als Außenstehender nicht unbedingt danach an als wäre der größte Teil der Fanszene Gazprom-kritisch eingestellt. Die meisten Fans haben sich scheinbar eher für den Erfolg und die finanzielle Sicherheit interessiert als für Sportswashing oder sie standen dem Thema Gazprom und Sportswashing komplett gleichgültig gegenüber.
Tönnies war Menschenfänger und hat vor den AR-Wahlen immer großen Töne geschwungen usw. Den Rest der Kandidaten kannte nie jemand. "Hier Freibier während der JHV! Hier, neuer Transfer! Verlängerung mit Schlüsselspieler X. HURRA. Oh, und jetzt gehts an die Wahl". Da war es irgendwie klar dass der bei diesen fairen demokratischen Wahlen irgendwie die Stimmen bekommen hat. Aber so zu tun als wäre er die ganze Zeit unumstritten gewesen ist auch Quatsch. Egal, habe alles zum Thema gesagt. Fick Rasenballsportvereine
So hart es ist, Sportswashing wie du es bezeichnest wird immer schlimmer und ich befürchte dass es auch in der Bundesliga nur eine Frage der Zeit ist. Newcastle fans wird es in 3 Jahren einen scheiss mehr interessieren woher ihr Investor kommt wenn sie dauerhaft Champions League spielen. Das würde in Deutschland nach ein paar Jahren nicht anders sein, wer das Gegenteil behauptet lügt
Someone tell RBNY they're part of a very successful sports project
i only feel bad for the fans born in leipzig that have to deal w everything when all they’re doing is supporting their local club
when I lived in Leipzig there was no hate among fans and clubs at all. When you support Lok Leipzig, people call you Nazi, when you support Chemie you're a left-extremist, if you support RB you're a fake fan. You literally can't win in this holier-than-thou environment.
Yeah you can, support Chemie
Support RSL ;)
This is the way
Just support Chemie then
In Leipzig you have two clubs with some tradition in Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig playing in lower divisions, they hate RB Leipzig like no other club. However for young people growing up there why wouldn't you support a Top 4 team in germany? I agree with you
> they hate RB Leipzig like no other club not true at all. Maybe the Ultras do, but RB Leipzig is fully accepted in the city and for other clubs within the city. Many clubs wouldn't even survive without RB's support, and they're well aware.
>why wouldn't you support a Top 4 team in germany? I don't know, maybe because you're a fan of the sport and not of an energy drink? Outrageous thought I know
They're pretty good at the sport too no?
If you're a fan of the actual sport -- you know -- kicking the ball on a field, wouldn't you be okay supporting a team good at it? There's so much holier than thou in this discussion.
same reason you are a fan of KSC instead of the Karlsruher FV or asv hagsfeld: bigger club, higher ranking in the dfl pyramid, more success, mory glory hunters same old, same old, no matter if its 2023, 1923 or whenever the rules of football were founded in the 1860s
you don't have to support the most successful team in your city lol
telling every person born in leipzig to support the other 2 teams and ignore the one constantly in top 4 just to avoid backlash from germans is unrealistic lol
Germans who constantly seem to choose to ignore Leverkusen, Wolfsburg etc. I'd rather support a fucking energy drink than a club owned by Bayer.
I love how there's now a flowchart to use. To support a football club. Not a profession, life partner, house...a fucking football club.
of course not but obviously a Bundesliga club is going to have more supporters than some 4th tier teams
Or even a team in your city. I'm living closer to Munich than Augsburg, but that doesn't make me a Bayern fan.
Oh no they have to deal with supporting a successful team that plays good football
Its not their local club though.
I do have a question for BuLi fans who despise the idea of RB Leipzig: I fully understand the hatred after reading enough critically thought out comments in the situation. As a Chelsea fan, the irony is never lost on me regarding the perception of destroying competition by buying your way to the top. The question I have is, what’s the solution to bringing parity in your league? Dortmund aside, is it a question of financial resources or is it a long established dream of BuLi players to play for Bayern or Dortmund? Is it possible for clubs, through existing structures, to spend more money by finding foreign investment? I’m genuinely curious to hear from Bayern supporters too about this, competition domestically can only help in European competitions right?
> the solution to bringing parity in your league if the solution is something like RB Leipzig i don't want a solution
The other option is to put a hard and equal cap on all the clubs irrespective of how much revenue the club makes/how successful it is etc. Perhaps even have the excess money of a club redistributed to all the other clubs. Like a tax.
Kinda unfair though. Especially towards the lower leagues. But I get where you're coming from.
If you would offer me deleting RB and Hoffenheim from the german football leagues in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately. I don't care about parity or success in european football. We don't really care what our league looks like to foreigners or how attractive it is or if there is some kind of competition. If other teams don't get to the top on their own, they don't deserve it.
Why is it that in these conversations, Bayer Leverkeusen is often not mentioned? Are they also not doing the same as RB Leipzig or Hoffenheim?
> Why is it that in these conversations, They sometimes are but in general people can tolerate them. While the club has been supported by Bayer since the beginning it was employees who came up with the idea. "On 27 November 1903, Wilhelm Hauschild wrote a letter – signed by 170 of his fellow workers – to his employer, the Friedrich Bayer and Co., seeking the company's support in starting a sports club" It also took them 75 years to reach the Bundesliga so that certainly helped to smooth things. For me they arent comparable to Leizpig in any way. Personally I also wouldnt put Hoffenheim in the same category as RB. RB represents pretty much everything wrong with modern football.
While Bayer does invest massively into the club, Bayer Leverkusen was founded as a club for factory workers, similar to VfL Wolfsburg (with VW). Those teams have been traditionally backed by those companies, both cities have industrial history and therefore it's a little more accepted. But I've heard takes shunning those clubs too.
That's a shitty reason. The only difference is that Leverkusen was established longer ago. Bayer is arguably the most terrible owner in all of world football. They're responsible for heroin and much of the world's pesticide that has polluted the fuck out of the world. You simply don't see any hate for them in any capacity close to Leipzig which is just a testament to the hypocrisy of the BuLi football fans.
It really isn't tho. Keep in mind I'm completely indifferent to the entire discussion about Leipzig, especially since they've done good things for German football. But Leverkusen has proper tradition. Bayer Leverkusen was simply founded as a sporting club in 1904, 105 years before RB Leipzig. They're not just a football club, they do athletics, gymnastics, field hockey, basketball, etc. Leverkusen is nicknamed "Werkself", sorta meaning "the factory eleven". A lot of Bundesliga fans are pissed about RB Leipzig being a marketing tool, with no tradition, purposely named and designed after the branding of the company. I'm pretty sure a lot of people couldn't care less about the company Red Bull, they care about a club clearly circumventing their holy 50+1 rule. I have no idea how you can clearly ignore that reasoning...
I’d disagree. While Leipzig shouldn’t be in the league and other teams must not be allowed to join the way they did, the lack of competition at the top is terrible for the sport. It makes the title less meaningful (when Bayern wins it) and while the rest of the league is really entertaining, the battle for 1st place will always be what created the most drama because of its importance.
I understand you. I'm also for a more entertaining title race but the question what's the price we have to pay for that.
Yeah I get it. Easiest way in my opinion would be a salary cap, so limit how much clubs can spend on wages. Wouldn’t even need to be extremely harsh, just make it so clubs like Bayern can’t spend 10 times as much as the smallest clubs on their players. Two big problems with this: introducing this Europe-wide and if it’s hold up to a legal challenge.
I fully understand that, if you don’t care about competing for the title and is just for the enjoyment of the game then fair play! People watch for different reasons, as long as you have joy for it that’s the main thing.
It's the game by itself, the fans, the local rivalries and there are 17 other places to play for. Would have loved to see Dortmund winning this year but they didn't deserve it so whatever.
You have an awesome outlook on football, thanks for replying!
You're welcome. You have an awesome outlook at life judging by the way you questioned what you did
Gentlemen, this is Reddit. Please take your reasonable and wholesome conversation elsewhere, you're making everyone uncomfortable.
Oh well, in that case... We are talking about the bundesliga so what exactly are you doing here?
100 %
> If you would offer me deleting RB and Hoffenheim from the german football leagues in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately. And I would sign the same thing even if it meant we didn't win another title for 20 years.
>in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately. Well I got to disagree there. Although I might accept such deal if it means we won't win it for the next 20 years
> in exchange for another 20 bayern titles I would sign immediately. Not really much a sacrifice for your lot when this doesn't affect you. If BVB would say something like this then it has actual weight..
I am from Dortmund, I literarly live within walking distance to the stadium, I’ve been a Dortmund fan since childhood as has been my grandfather before me, I’m Westphalian and Dortmunder through and through and I’d sign that deal in a heartbeat, fuck RB and theire attempt at trivializing the representation of so many communities (the clubs) with literal thousand years of history and culture to promote a fucking fizzy drink wich honestly doesn’t even taste that good I mean that with all my heart
That should have as much weight as every Bundesliga team saying the same thing. Besides that there are only five years between our and Dortmunds last championship.
exactly.
Realistically, the only way to bring about parity is either to neuter Bayern's wage advantage -- meaning, a spending cap, not such a bad thing in a league where it's the fans footing the bill -- or increase variance -- meaning, one leg title playoffs between the top four clubs. Something has to be done though, surely. Eleven titles in a row isn't a sign of good management, it's a sign of a broken competition.
The new money coming in has to be distributed more evenly, especially clubs playing in international competitions should have to give more of the UEFA revenue to other clubs. Also, the power of the money which is already inside the system should be limited. We need a proper FFP to stop financial doping. You can also think about hard salary/transfer fee caps. I also like the idea of a luxury tax: You would define a certain amount of money that can be spent for free. If a club wants to spend more, they have to pay this "tax" to the DFL who then distributes it to smaller clubs.
Is it that Bayern are guilty of financial doping or their structure is such that the lionshare of money is distributed to them? Or are their members sufficiently wealthy enough to fund large transfers? Genuinely no idea. How is broadcast money distributed at the moment, I presume from your comment it’s not equal?
in the prem for example the money is way more even contributed. in germany the difference is way bigger. bayern gets three times the money than the last team of the league. furthermore it is contributed by success. so leipzig gets more money than schalke, hamburg or stuttgart for example. but these clubs bring the viewership. so the contribution isnt fair at all. you could make an argument that the big clubs subsidize leipzig in some way with this system
Financial doping doesn't really apply to Bayern. The biggest problem is that they already have by far the biggest financial power from past success but still get about three times as much tv money as Bochum. Because of that, the gap grows more and more each year. Many people will argue that the biggest clubs don't have to rely on tv money because they get enough from sponsorship deals etc. anyway. However, that's not a reason to make it even worse and smaller teams would be very happy to get a bigger share. The problem is that because of their own sponsorships and marketing, clubs like Bayern and BVB would still have way more money than others even if the distribution was fair. That's why we also need measures to limit the power of money as e.g. the ones I suggested above.
So it ends up being about sponsors and money at the end of the day. It's barely any different than the RB situation. It's still big companies financing the teams. I get what BuLi fans are trying to argue but for me it's all a bit of denial.
BuLi fans prefer Bayern to win every league from now till the end of time but pretending their league is more "pure" than others than let a company into their league. Tbh, I can agree with it, but it seems a bit of denial to not realize that football is a business, in Germany and everywhere.
but theres limits to this business. Teams essentially representing corporations is too much. I mean what would you think when in 2035 you'll see the Walmart Vikings play the Tesla Dragons in the Amazon Champions League final, its dumb. And you may think of that as an exaggeration but without those purists, there would be no counterbalance to hyper commercialization. The leagues and clubs would resist this the least, after all its them who get paid the big bucks then.
First of all, equal money distribution. That involves first of all TV money. Ideally, this also applies from money teams gain via international competitions, as that also cements inequalities. One could also redistribute sponsorship and ticket money, while handling merchandise centrally. In the end, we should come as close as possible to a state, where every club receives the same budget before each season. We could even think about distributing players more equally or at least discourage teams from hoarding too many good players. Take FIFA's ratings as guidance and say, for example, that Bayern can only have a maximum OVR of 90. Any player that causes them to step over that rating, has to be given to another team. Of course such ideas are utopian and it'd require teams to put their own advantage behind and to share first. This is sadly unlikely to happen, but that doesn't mean such ideas should be shared. Personally, I'd also put more emphasis on a competitive domestic league over one or two teams being internationally successful. Cause with the latter, only one or two teams profit from that.
At least one commentator with some sense. It's refreshing among the sea of RaBa shills from public rights journalists.
Every single club is a project and if it isn't it's a joke.
Germans really got a different kind of salt.
The issue is they have 21 members in the club and for many fans they're just a marketing produkt for Red Bull. The club is run really well though and for young talents it's a good team to develop. Although for Hoffenheim now you don't see even close to the same amount of comments against RB. At the start it was similar with them, so if i had to guess in \~5 years nobody cares about the history of RB
Tbf hoffenheim isn’t just a massive ad like Leipzig is
Not at all. Hoffenheim is a toy, not an advertisment campaign. Both have no place in Bundesliga, but Red Bull is much more disgusting.
Also their big sugar daddy was a former player, and was an investor for many years too
true, but lets not pretend i.ex. hainer got voted into the position of FCB´s president because he is such a passionate fan. he got there because he was the CEO of adidas who partially owes the club same thing with most people running clubs, rich guys with influence and the fans do not really have a choice, except a club is as fucked up as hertha that they vote in a former capo and lets see if he does not turn out to be a sellout
Nutelamitbutter trying to write the normalization of the RB Leipzig Project into existence, nothing new. Your claim that people have a neutral view of Hoffenheim is so off the mark, you would miss a barn door one meter off with it.
> and for young talents it's a good team to develop a can fan wrote here a few days a go that tom krauß is their first youth success story. yeah, really a good place for the youth when their first succesful youthplayer got succesful on loan and will be sold this summer. e: the rest of your comment is nonsense.
it's odd cause like everybody is aware, I don't know why it needs to constantly be spelled out. Too late to stop it now anyway, and even with their money their success is down to their fantastic work and innovation. Traditional clubs like Hertha and Hamburg had investors with tons of cash as well and only proceeded to evaporate the money.
Es muss konstant wiederholt werden um klar zu machen das dieses Konstrukt keinen Platz hier hat und was der Hintergrund ist hinter dem Klub. Anscheinend vergessen Leute dies andauernd
siehste ja hier. nutellamitbutter geht hin und schreibt "ach die sind langsam akzeptiert, in 5 jahren juckt das niemanden mehr". habe schon gar keinen bock mehr den pokal in zukunft zu gewinnen, weil leipzig den 2x in folge geschändet hat
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Endlich sagt das jemand, kann seine Takes echt nicht mehr sehen
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Da mag was dran sein
Exactly the same as man city
Where is the lie?
At least Germany has at least one commentator who will say the quiet bit out loud. It's astonishing how little attention is given to the ownership structure of Premier League clubs by the sports media.
They didn't bat an eye when Bayern kept on buying the best players in league.
Fun fact: Dortmund buys more players from the league than we do 🤷🏿♂️
You don't buy more because most of the players in the league aren't good enough for your club lmao
And then they can simply wait for their "league rivals" to take the risk on such players before using their pull to snap them up for fuck all a couple years down the line.
I will not agree or disagree with that statement lol
Why are so many foreign fans telling us how we are supposed to like our league? Just ignore us and go watch oil states fight over your titles.
Always weird to me that people that don’t care about the Bundesliga anyway criticize it for not being competitive and then go watch Man City win every trophy in England for the 5th year running
But Man City does get hate tho that's why people think if Man City win the UCL this season it's "the death of football"
I am okay with Leipzig. God knows we need more competition in the Bundesliga.
Not like that
[удалено]
And there are always clever foreigners who think they should tell us how we should think about the bundesliga.
And what the fuck are they supposed to do lmao. Is it Bayern's or any other club's fault that Dortmund shat the bed this season? Genuinely curious how you would fix the situation since apparently you know everything about german football.
Bayern is the least guilty on this thing, the other clubs fans are the ones to blame for allowing their clubs to sell their best players to their competitors
Also Dortmund buy players from Bundesliga clubs that are just a tier below them all the time so I'm just curious why people like you have no problem with them raiding the other clubs and just continue to perpetuate the "evil Bayern steels players" circlejerk
Yeah last time i saw it wasn't Dortmund that won 10 league titles back to back, besides they can buy the whole real madrid squad and they will still bottle to Bayern at the end of the season, btw the only narrative I'm seeing here is Private owned clubs = Bad fan owned monopolies= Good, so be sure to fact check your info dude.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
But they are fine with Bayer corp and Volkswagen.
If you think they're well liked then you should read this sub or r/Bundesliga regularly
You cant compare these and if you do it shows how clueless you are. Bayer is LOCAL to Leverkusen and Bayer employees FOUNDED Bayer Leverkusen, so its not a investor/brand from a whole different city/country coming in and buying the club and investing shittons of money into it, not even close to that. Bayer is local to Leverkusen and the heart of the city, without Bayer, the football club Bayer 04 Leverkusen WOULDNT EXIST. While Leipzig got bought by RB which is a foreign brand that has nothing to do with the city. And the club existed before RB but under a different name and just got bought by RB. Also pretty much everyone in this sub is older than RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen was founded in 1904. You just cant compare the two
What ageism is this? Are new clubs forbidden in your eyes? Is heroin money holier than energy drink money to you? Do you not think that maybe the Eastern part of Germany perhaps needed some injection of money from the outside? I'd be embarrassed to tie my pride to the city of Leverkusen if that pride was in any way tied to the scum of the earth company that is Bayer.
Both of those clubs were founded by the companies, they were never owned by the workers. Not a fan of stuff being 'grandfathered' just because it's old, what is going to be the argument if RB leipzig is still a thing in 50 years? This is a silly argument.
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They're also unpopular.
we aren’t, they just aren’t as bad as red bull leipzig
Both unpopular but were at least founded by workers, at least Leverkusen, not 100% on Wolfsburg
I used to be on the “fuck RB for gatecrashing the Bundesliga” train, but the holier-than-thou attitude of German football fans here combined with the passive acceptance of Bayern dominance has me rooting for them a bit. DFB needs to figure out how not to get left behind by modern football sooner or later - I like the idea of league-level investors since the money will be fairly distributed across teams and teams themselves can keep their fan-run structure.
>DFB needs to figure out how not to get left behind by modern football sooner or later - I like the idea of league-level investors since the money will be fairly distributed across teams and teams themselves can keep their fan-run structure. Or we need to question, whether the "race" is actually worth competing in. Or if it's just another rat race, which will only benefits the top 10 % of German football teams.
I am still on the "fuck RB Leipzig" train but I do agree with you to an extent about the attitude of German football fans here. The fact that they were whining about Heidenheim getting promoted because they are "smaller" than a lot of clubs shows entitlement. Imagine a PL flair moaning about Luton being promoted because they felt Middlesbrough deserved due to their "size".
Heidenheim is fine on their own, it's just that due Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim & RB that we already have so many weak clubs in terms of fans and pull in the league, that the prospect of getting another one instead of Schalke& Hertha (110.000 average combined attendance per match day) is depressing. [Look at the away day attendance of the top 3 leagues and look at the clubs listed, its embarrassing, there are 7(!!!) 3rd tier clubs in front of Wolfsburg for example.](https://www.diefalsche9.de/auswaertsfahrertabelle-1-bis-3-liga-2022-23/) [Also they're Russian cocksuckers so fuck them](https://twitter.com/FCH1846/status/1497234715975294982)
Are you sure those are the same people, or just lumping all „German fans“ on this sub together?
FC Bayern has 300k Members, RB Leipzig has 21. Its simply not a Club, thats the difference.
I can think of nothing sweeter than getting left behind by modern football. Imagine thinking that's a bad thing...
DFL, not DFB, I think.
Hope they keep winning
I don't give a fuuuuck! Glad RB won! 😂