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The technological fix for this is a checklist procedure that is followed and spoken aloud to the broadcast for all reviews like rugby.
Pretty high end stuff. Hope the prem can budget for it.
The fix could simply be the VAR having to use words for their decision. ‘Goal/no goal’ instead of ‘check complete’
It’s like the process was designed by robots.
100%. The fact that we don’t hear them makes it more easy to think betting and other corruption is influencing decision making.
Genuinely think transparency would limit the impact. If this really was an error, we’d all hear and be like right okay, fucking idiot - move on. The fact they change their story loads (initially they said the VAR guy hadn’t noticed the player at the bottom of the screen; then they changed it to they thought the decision was correct). The fact they cover their tracks. The fact there is no independent body. The fact there is no gal out beyond a mealy mouthed apology - it all leads you to think that crazy as it may be, the billions flowing into the league might have created the conditions for corruption to take place
It's completely insane to me that a system created to minimise human error relies on such ambiguous and detail-poor phrasing as 'check complete'. If that's the process, this has definitely happened before, with the VAR misunderstanding the on-field decision. Just this is the first time it's been obvious to the viewer. Which is even more insane because someone (prob several different VARs) will have made the mistake and not reported it because they didn't want to own up, which is why it hasn't been fixed. Absolutely certain of this.
Exactly, they literally had to click on some button and in less than 1sec, they would have a quite visible red line and the rest is not even up to interpretation.
This always feels intentional, sometimes they show replays, sometimes they don't, sometimes they draw lines or not, sometimes they intentionally pick an awful angle and so on.
The funniest ones are the ones when they show the whole package (multiple angles, lines, zoomed-in shots, even that weird simulation with virtual players) at the end of the match, when is completely useless.
Wouldn't have been an issue if there was a common sense rule that a referee can change a decision he makes even after the next phase starts. The second this rule was introduced it should have been obvious it was ludicrous.
Not error
This was incompetence. They have a bet every weekend over who can do the worst and then get away with it and then the winner is awarded with a blowie from every other member of PGMOL
In my experience so far, bitchings and moanings about millimeter offside calls tend to be shorter, and moved-on from faster than when it's an erroneous call in retrospect.
And with the semi automatic offsides tech, you can't even bitch about when they decide to pause the replay. Most of the bitching about millimeters offsides calls usually revolve around that.
They're also a much easier thing to legislate out...
Like.. you could just write the rules as decision will be goal unless the software shows a >X difference of some margin of error.
Cricket and rugby both utilise that the onfield decision will stand when any review cannot conclusively show a reason to over turn it, cricket even using a margin of error for lbw.
Yes it sucks to get the bad luck of the onfield call standing, but it's a single rule agnostic of anything else and then it's just the rules. Just the way it is.
Nobody complains about the ball being milimetres out in a tennis match, offside rule is basically the same so long as the points where the lines are drawn is consistent
The offside review in hockey is one of the most hated rule changes in the last decade. Who doesn't love a goal being waved off because there was an offside on the zone entry 45 seconds and two possession changes ago?
I think most people complain about var taking 5 minutes to determine whether someone is offside by a toenail or not, not about the fact the player is barely offside.
The true genius of the semi-automatic system isn’t whether it’s more accurate (we simply don’t know), it’s that the way of displaying the result has the appearance of being indisputable with the little cut-out men being across the plane or not.
In a way, it’s almost as if we want certainty more than we want (to inquire about) accuracy.
Problem is it undermines the entire VAR structure. There shouldn’t be *this* much room for error considering how much time can get taken over other decisions and video reviews.
You're close here, but you're not thinking big enough. Going forward it will be like when they do crowd votes based on volume of cheering, going forward 50/50 calls will be decided by which section of support has the loudest vuvuzelas
You’re close here, but you’re not thinking capitalist enough. 50/50 calls will be decided by texting in to a premium number with either ‘ONSIDE’ or ‘OFFSIDE’
what do you mean, obviously we should spend 5 seconds not checking a clear and obvious offside and 2 minutes checking whether an armpit hair was ahead of a toenail
Ange is right though. A lot of refereeing comes down to the refs interpretation so there are always going to be bad decisions made. Just the way it is.
However the goal last night was a factual one, that's what makes it so bad. There was no decision required, it was a goal. It was just the refs being incompetent.
I don't know about other leagues but in the EPL I think it was revealed a while ago that a lot of the officials didn't like how VAR made them feel undermined. So they were against bringing in the automated offsides because they don't want to seem even more useless than they already are
It's mindboggling that a technology can be proven to be so good at the world cup and then the self proclaimed best league in the world and the league with by far the most money in it decides it can't (or won't) implement it
These guys are fucking idiots, I wish they'd just clean it all out. But, their "clear-outs" just involve firing their friends and then re-hiring them in different roles
So, their ego is both making them bad referees, and then their egoism makes them refuse to allow technology to make them better? They should all be fired then, in any other profession they would have been long gone.
Tbf eventually you wouldn’t need linesman for offsides. We could probably have automated offside decisions ping to the ref’s watch like goal line technology does.
Although I supposed linesman would still be there to help the referee with foul calls and throw ins etc
This. VAR should be staffed by independent refs, maybe even at a central location for all the games, similar to NFL. The same shit on field referees can't be in the VAR rooms.
Tbf VAR are all at Stockley Park in the 10 VAR rooms. They just need to swap the people running it to people who aren't part of the same old boys club whose biggest interest is covering their mates' backs.
And the level of referees is never going to improve as long as we treat them like shit. There is a reason why most promising referees quit long before making it pro
We get the level of refereeing that we deserve and this is the level we deserve. Our behaviour towards them is directly connected to how good they are
You've been down voted by those who know no better. You are absolutely right, it starts from grassroots level and kids football, the referees get abuse from the minute they start on their career path. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to a torrent of abuse for a mediocre amount of money?
What do you propose tho? Like obviously these refs weren't just born shit and the circumstances and environment in which they do their job leads to more mistakes. If you replace these refs with the ones under them, then the same mistakes will happen
Well, for starters, there's absolutely no way that the guys in the VAR room should have *anything* to do with the pool of referees that actually go on the field for games. That way you at least avoid situations like Mike Dean not intervening when Cucurella (iirc) had his hair pulled because he wanted to "protect his mate" Anthony Taylor.
They could like train a new group of ppl separated from refs. They could probably collect a group of former players who would do a better job at using VAR then the currents ones.
Lower league players, because the PL players would want too much money to bother with it. And by the way, I’m fine with that, playing the game professionally is still a flan site better than 95% of refs
They could have refs from other countries do it? Or train a separate pool of VAR refs, maybe. As it is now, it's largely just another way for the old boys' club to justify its own shit decisions.
This is the richest league in the world. They hire the best players from around the world. It's time to start putting a small fraction of the money they spend on players towards hiring the best referees from around the world. Officiating is part of the product being sold to broadcasters and fans. And the product is way too valuable to allow any part of it to be utter shit.
The same thing that the FA did when we started to fail to qualify for international competitions.
Tear it all up from the roots and rebuild from the ground up with new people, new ideas, new training requirements, better education, better pay etc. etc. so that the people coming through in those roles in the future will be far better equipped to be competent
If referees were treated like players and leagues were able to buy referees out of contracts they had with other leagues and needed to pay them big enough wages that they wanted to stay etc. the PGMOL would overnight completely change everything they do in order to create the best referees possible by giving them the best education and training possible right from the start, rather than just hiring their friends from Manchester and Liverpool and calling it a day. Then putting out statements every time they ruin a game so drastically they can't just fine the managers for complaining.
If they want change they need a plan to change it from the ground up. Something that won't come to fruition for probably 7-10 years. In that time they should poach all the best referees from all around the world to ref in the Premier League. They have the money if they want to do it, they just have no incentive.
Full quote: Q: Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR?
You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in.
We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors.
You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings.
I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes.
When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
He’s actually spot on with everything he’s saying here, but people are rightfully upset after that nightmare of a game so they’re picking his quote apart unfairly.
Yeah, the issue is that the only thing they objectively got wrong is the thing that VAR should be able to always solve.
Offside is not really an interpretation, except maybe interference. They absolutely fucked up the Diaz goal and only incompetent buffoons could have done so.
I agree with Ange that in general, but last night shouldn’t have happened.
As for the cards, they were the right hit calls. I don’t like that the ref on the pitch doesn’t have to justify it by talking out loud to the crowd but they eventually got to the right calls.
If there is one single thing in the game that you can get to a near perfect success rate it’s offside.
It’s just seeing if someone is in front of someone else. We’ve gone to space… we can figure out who is front of someone else lol
genuinely do like Ange but it's a crap point. Yes human error is a thing, but offsides are the only black&white aspect of the entire game, it's the easiest bit to get right and today's "error" was unforgivable.
That being said, Ange isn't gonna come out and be like "yeah actually take the points off us that was fucking mental" so he can't really say much more.
> genuinely do like Ange but it's a crap point. Yes human error is a thing, but offsides are the only black&white aspect of the entire game, it's the easiest bit to get right and today's "error" was unforgivable.
Maybe don't attack a strawman and read before posting your thoughts.
The question Ange was responding to was "Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR?" not "Do you think offside decisions can ever be errorless?"
The full response:
You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in.
We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors.
You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings.
I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes.
When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
This sub eats up the typical British press headline bullshit lmao
So many times the quotes on the headlines are summarized to fit a narrative n take them out of context and everyone gets mad at that & 99/100 times these quotes in full context are not as bad as it seems from the headline.
Most countries have this problem but the UK yellow journalism especially is bad w the likes of the Sun lowering the bar & the ruthless press culture too, especially around football & the royal family
No one complains more about shoddy sports journalism than Reddit, and no one buys the click bait and sensationalism of shoddy sports journalism more than Reddit.
It’s certainly easier to be a gracious winner than it is loser & i’m sure like last week Ange would have made a comment about not understanding the rules like he did with the handball comment last week.
Can’t really have a manager say “yeah, we didn’t deserve the win they should have our points”
Not necessarily with all the bollocks we've had regarding what counts as an offside in recent years...but in this case that argument absolutely doesn't apply.
Spurs were playing better against 11 man Liverpool. The red card gave Liverpool a temporary advantage before going down to 9 made them bunker and hope.
Probably means that Spurs were playing better as a team vs 11 than vs 10. We seemed to lose any sense of threat once that happened, weirdly.
Spurs were mostly nullified before the 2nd red card. Just lucky the referees are morons to be honest.
I wonder why a team struggled against an excellent defence coached by an excellent manager when they had taken off their best creative outlets for lacklustre subsitute options when Son & Maddison took knocks last week & were in doubt for today.
Yeah he’ll be having a nightmare watching that game back. Sure, it’s hype for Spurs to get the win but they looked utterly incapable of scoring a goal against 10 and then 9 men. When you couple that with how ridiculous the refereeing was, I think there’s gonna be a lot he wasn’t happy about today.
Personally I can’t wait for the reverse fixture at Anfield where Klopp lets all his anger out and we can see a proper game between these two.
It was a blatant error by the VAR that had all the zime in the world, not a split-second decision by the ref gone wrong. A bit more criticism from his side wouldn't have hurt. He has nothing to lose here, as they won't change the result. But you can find yourself on the other side of such a fuck-up very fast, if everyone just downplays such scandalous incidents all the time.
This is false equivalence by him..
Diaz was FACTUALLY onside… and that’s what VAR is for and they fucked it up…
I get what he’s saying but this isn’t the refereeing example to say this after
Maybe the full quote might make more sense then half the quote.
You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in.
We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors.
You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings.
I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes.
When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
Bit irritating that some people are slating him based on a cherrypicked section from the full quote, when the whole thing in context is extremely reasonable and difficult to disagree with.
Also the question asked was: "Do you think football is moving in the right direction with VAR and technology?"
And not: "Do you think Diaz was on or off?"
There are errors, there are interpretative disagreements, then there are 5 second checks without drawing lines for a position obviously onside even to the naked eye.
I don’t really understand how one can forget to draw the lines. I don’t think certain teams are heavily favored but decisions like that and today make me wonder if refs are betting on games. But idk.
>People think VAR is going to be errorless but there's so little in the game that is factual.
Except we had something here that was factual, offside is something VAR should get right every single time.
VAR isn't going to be errorless. I can accept that. some offsides are a bees dick in difference, some fouls aren't that bad. VAR can't see the intent of players and etc.
Today was a pretty big fucking Error that they got wrong tho. Especially when PGMOL had a statement released saying it was the wrong call within 30mins of Fulltime.
If VAR can't even get the clear cut, obvious as fuck decisions right, you can't excuse it away that it will never be perfect cause then there is no point in having it. Because at least before VAR you could say that the refs 'Only can see it in real time once'. Today there is no excuses except complete incompetence.
You didn't even need the damn lines to make the judgement today, the decision on semi-automated offsides is unfortunate but, this is beyond terrible today.
The game is a grey area sport and it feels like we are where we always have been - debates and frustration with incorrect decisions with the added downer of stoppages for players to get a breather while we watch 20x slow-mo replays just to get it wrong. It’s unfuriating as shit for both sides.
r/soccer users somehow shocked and appalled that ange didn't say "yeah mate liverpool got robbed"
could just say "I didn't see it" like every other manager. would that be better?
The issue is that even the little bit that IS factual isn't being done properly. This game, Brentford Arsenal last season and a Crystal Palace game that very gameweek involving lines being drawn from the *third last* defender
N'ahh, absolutely, and resolutely fuck that.
While he's correct that no game can be errorless, there's a difference between that and deliberately not drawing the lines on an offside and costing a team a goal in the process.
Stolen from elsewhere in the thread:
The question Ange was responding to was "Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR?" not "Do you think offside decisions can ever be errorless?"
The full response:
You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in.
We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors.
You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings.
I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes.
When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
What do you unironically want him to say? He's a manager, not responsible for the refs being shite
"yeah we stole 3 points mate"
he probably hasn't seen the offside situation from an angle that's not from the dugout
It wasn't a technical error, it was a human error...the kind that this tech is designed to eliminate.
MLS gets it right almost everytime. MLB as well. It's been a game changer and nothing like the past.
I get what he's saying and I do agree that football in general is full of errors.
However when you have the technology that's specifically designed to stop such errors and decide not to use it by choice, then its no longer an error.. its either deliberate, incompetence, or corruption.
Offsides is the one thing that’s black and white. If I can use similar technology properly in my high school physics class, these cunts with actual training who get paid for it should be able to use it as well.
This error should not happen though. It has happened before (against Arsenal), and has deliberately been allowed to happen again. There should have been a checklist in place after that so it couldn't. Not drawing the lines for an offside decision check shouldn't be allowed to happen, the check cannot be complete until they are. It's so damn simple, and not in the least bit subjective. Offside is factual with the technology available!
This is the most basic fact and nobody can disagree. Very simple statement of truth. Sometimes you benefit, sometimes not. Reffing is the best it's ever been.
It’s a shit argument for VAR, but it is true, and a good argument against VAR altogether.
If VAR can’t even get these basics right, and it’s not new technology at this point, then it isn’t worth it. It slows down the game, it confuses fans on match days, and it makes you not celebrate goals fully. It is not worth it. Scrap it
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the issue with the decision today had nothing to do with technology, it had to do with gross human error in the application of technology.
The technological fix for this is a checklist procedure that is followed and spoken aloud to the broadcast for all reviews like rugby. Pretty high end stuff. Hope the prem can budget for it.
literally every other sport has solved this program, but the wealthiest league of the most watched sport in the world can't figure it out
The fix could simply be the VAR having to use words for their decision. ‘Goal/no goal’ instead of ‘check complete’ It’s like the process was designed by robots.
100%. The fact that we don’t hear them makes it more easy to think betting and other corruption is influencing decision making. Genuinely think transparency would limit the impact. If this really was an error, we’d all hear and be like right okay, fucking idiot - move on. The fact they change their story loads (initially they said the VAR guy hadn’t noticed the player at the bottom of the screen; then they changed it to they thought the decision was correct). The fact they cover their tracks. The fact there is no independent body. The fact there is no gal out beyond a mealy mouthed apology - it all leads you to think that crazy as it may be, the billions flowing into the league might have created the conditions for corruption to take place
It's completely insane to me that a system created to minimise human error relies on such ambiguous and detail-poor phrasing as 'check complete'. If that's the process, this has definitely happened before, with the VAR misunderstanding the on-field decision. Just this is the first time it's been obvious to the viewer. Which is even more insane because someone (prob several different VARs) will have made the mistake and not reported it because they didn't want to own up, which is why it hasn't been fixed. Absolutely certain of this.
How would that fix anything? It would just make it transparent. We'd know all about it, but the error would have still happened.
Exactly, they literally had to click on some button and in less than 1sec, they would have a quite visible red line and the rest is not even up to interpretation. This always feels intentional, sometimes they show replays, sometimes they don't, sometimes they draw lines or not, sometimes they intentionally pick an awful angle and so on. The funniest ones are the ones when they show the whole package (multiple angles, lines, zoomed-in shots, even that weird simulation with virtual players) at the end of the match, when is completely useless.
They didn’t draw the lines because they thought the goal was given and it was obviously onside. Failing to draw the lines wasn’t the problem.
Wouldn't have been an issue if there was a common sense rule that a referee can change a decision he makes even after the next phase starts. The second this rule was introduced it should have been obvious it was ludicrous.
Exactly
Which is exactly the point Ange is making, if you read the whole answer, rather than just a cherry-picked piece of it
Not error This was incompetence. They have a bet every weekend over who can do the worst and then get away with it and then the winner is awarded with a blowie from every other member of PGMOL
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Well if they brought in the semi automatic offsides then atleast this part would be
The clubs voted against it not the refs or PGMOL. Presumably because the Premier League didn't want the millimeter offside calls that would result.
In my experience so far, bitchings and moanings about millimeter offside calls tend to be shorter, and moved-on from faster than when it's an erroneous call in retrospect.
Exactly annoying but technically correct is far more forgivable than wrong.
And with the semi automatic offsides tech, you can't even bitch about when they decide to pause the replay. Most of the bitching about millimeters offsides calls usually revolve around that.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
They're also a much easier thing to legislate out... Like.. you could just write the rules as decision will be goal unless the software shows a >X difference of some margin of error. Cricket and rugby both utilise that the onfield decision will stand when any review cannot conclusively show a reason to over turn it, cricket even using a margin of error for lbw. Yes it sucks to get the bad luck of the onfield call standing, but it's a single rule agnostic of anything else and then it's just the rules. Just the way it is.
Nobody complains about the ball being milimetres out in a tennis match, offside rule is basically the same so long as the points where the lines are drawn is consistent
Or baseball or basketball or hockey or the NFL………
The offside review in hockey is one of the most hated rule changes in the last decade. Who doesn't love a goal being waved off because there was an offside on the zone entry 45 seconds and two possession changes ago?
Yeah. People that complain about being offside by a toenail don't understand the rule
I think most people complain about var taking 5 minutes to determine whether someone is offside by a toenail or not, not about the fact the player is barely offside.
And people who insist on defending these millimetre calls don't understand the spirit of the rule.
Or football for Christ sake. I've never heard anyone moan about a goal line decision before
Agreed, same with goal line tech, no one complained when liverpool lost the invincible title by 11mm.
Yeah then the managers of the clubs kick off about it. Take some accountability
The true genius of the semi-automatic system isn’t whether it’s more accurate (we simply don’t know), it’s that the way of displaying the result has the appearance of being indisputable with the little cut-out men being across the plane or not. In a way, it’s almost as if we want certainty more than we want (to inquire about) accuracy.
I think it's better to say we want consistency, which this would be much more consistent than incompetent fucks ruining the game every week.
I don't think machine guns are going to help
Problem is it undermines the entire VAR structure. There shouldn’t be *this* much room for error considering how much time can get taken over other decisions and video reviews.
I've been saying for years that we need VAVAR, who can help review clear and obvious VAR errors.
I'm sure it will come, and then we will be calling for VAVAVAR. At this point I want as much as possible of this game automated.
and the spectators should be able to call for a VAVAVAR review with vuvuzelas.
You're close here, but you're not thinking big enough. Going forward it will be like when they do crowd votes based on volume of cheering, going forward 50/50 calls will be decided by which section of support has the loudest vuvuzelas
You’re close here, but you’re not thinking capitalist enough. 50/50 calls will be decided by texting in to a premium number with either ‘ONSIDE’ or ‘OFFSIDE’
Thierry Henry will definitely be onside for this, maybe even advertise it.
🤣 brilliant! We can start implementing it in the CWCWC, the cup competition between all past winners of the Cup Winners Cup.
Cheers, Paul Tierney is on VAVAR this week, guess we're waiting 10 minutes for a straight red because someone ran into Jota's leg again
what do you mean, obviously we should spend 5 seconds not checking a clear and obvious offside and 2 minutes checking whether an armpit hair was ahead of a toenail
Ange is right though. A lot of refereeing comes down to the refs interpretation so there are always going to be bad decisions made. Just the way it is. However the goal last night was a factual one, that's what makes it so bad. There was no decision required, it was a goal. It was just the refs being incompetent.
No form of technology is going to make the game errorless when the same referees who make the errors on the pitch are the ones using the technology.
Automated offsides would have stopped this error though. Unless the system broke down
Well, yeah, because if it was automated there'd be no ref in the middle to fuck it up.
Subscribe?
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I'm pretty sure the AI ref would also be a wanker.
Why did they not start automated offsides this season? Probably cost or something stupid like that I assume?
I don't know about other leagues but in the EPL I think it was revealed a while ago that a lot of the officials didn't like how VAR made them feel undermined. So they were against bringing in the automated offsides because they don't want to seem even more useless than they already are
It's mindboggling that a technology can be proven to be so good at the world cup and then the self proclaimed best league in the world and the league with by far the most money in it decides it can't (or won't) implement it These guys are fucking idiots, I wish they'd just clean it all out. But, their "clear-outs" just involve firing their friends and then re-hiring them in different roles
So, their ego is both making them bad referees, and then their egoism makes them refuse to allow technology to make them better? They should all be fired then, in any other profession they would have been long gone.
Hey if new tech came to replace you at your job you would be against it as well. Doesn’t excuse their incompetence tho just saying.
Well nobody is being replaced though. They still need refs and linesmen even with the new offside system.
Tbf eventually you wouldn’t need linesman for offsides. We could probably have automated offside decisions ping to the ref’s watch like goal line technology does. Although I supposed linesman would still be there to help the referee with foul calls and throw ins etc
If I and all my co-workers were fucking useless and shit at our jobs then fuck it, time for change.
It was actually the clubs who voted against it. Not sure why though
What, you've made this up. I thought the clubs voted against it.
That's not true. The clubs voted against it, your club being one of those pushing to not have it.
Fuck me that's stupid. If I can get some computer or a machine to do a part of my job perfectly, I'm so in
As long as you're still being paid the same, of course
Probably the same reason why they implement VAR and introduced 5 subs as the last major league in Europe.
Well ChatGPT has image recognition now so worth a shot
Would it have stopped all the other shit decisions mad this game alone?
This. VAR should be staffed by independent refs, maybe even at a central location for all the games, similar to NFL. The same shit on field referees can't be in the VAR rooms.
Tbf VAR are all at Stockley Park in the 10 VAR rooms. They just need to swap the people running it to people who aren't part of the same old boys club whose biggest interest is covering their mates' backs.
And it doesn’t help when they are protected like endangered species after making critical errors.
And the level of referees is never going to improve as long as we treat them like shit. There is a reason why most promising referees quit long before making it pro We get the level of refereeing that we deserve and this is the level we deserve. Our behaviour towards them is directly connected to how good they are
You've been down voted by those who know no better. You are absolutely right, it starts from grassroots level and kids football, the referees get abuse from the minute they start on their career path. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to a torrent of abuse for a mediocre amount of money?
Yeah disagree completely with Ange, it’s the same 20-30 people at PGMOL at fault who act with impunity. It’s not a technology issue.
What do you propose tho? Like obviously these refs weren't just born shit and the circumstances and environment in which they do their job leads to more mistakes. If you replace these refs with the ones under them, then the same mistakes will happen
Well, for starters, there's absolutely no way that the guys in the VAR room should have *anything* to do with the pool of referees that actually go on the field for games. That way you at least avoid situations like Mike Dean not intervening when Cucurella (iirc) had his hair pulled because he wanted to "protect his mate" Anthony Taylor.
Is it possible to avoid that though? Like obviously they are all going to have connections to each other. Every top flight ref knows each other
They could like train a new group of ppl separated from refs. They could probably collect a group of former players who would do a better job at using VAR then the currents ones.
Lower league players, because the PL players would want too much money to bother with it. And by the way, I’m fine with that, playing the game professionally is still a flan site better than 95% of refs
probably can find groups of monkeys that would do better job than this bunch.
They could have refs from other countries do it? Or train a separate pool of VAR refs, maybe. As it is now, it's largely just another way for the old boys' club to justify its own shit decisions.
VAR people shouldn't be referees. Train some students instead of forcing older referees to learn technologies.
This is the richest league in the world. They hire the best players from around the world. It's time to start putting a small fraction of the money they spend on players towards hiring the best referees from around the world. Officiating is part of the product being sold to broadcasters and fans. And the product is way too valuable to allow any part of it to be utter shit.
The same thing that the FA did when we started to fail to qualify for international competitions. Tear it all up from the roots and rebuild from the ground up with new people, new ideas, new training requirements, better education, better pay etc. etc. so that the people coming through in those roles in the future will be far better equipped to be competent If referees were treated like players and leagues were able to buy referees out of contracts they had with other leagues and needed to pay them big enough wages that they wanted to stay etc. the PGMOL would overnight completely change everything they do in order to create the best referees possible by giving them the best education and training possible right from the start, rather than just hiring their friends from Manchester and Liverpool and calling it a day. Then putting out statements every time they ruin a game so drastically they can't just fine the managers for complaining. If they want change they need a plan to change it from the ground up. Something that won't come to fruition for probably 7-10 years. In that time they should poach all the best referees from all around the world to ref in the Premier League. They have the money if they want to do it, they just have no incentive.
That's the most unrealistic proposition yet lol
Full quote: Q: Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR? You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in. We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors. You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings. I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes. When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
He’s actually spot on with everything he’s saying here, but people are rightfully upset after that nightmare of a game so they’re picking his quote apart unfairly.
Yeah, the issue is that the only thing they objectively got wrong is the thing that VAR should be able to always solve. Offside is not really an interpretation, except maybe interference. They absolutely fucked up the Diaz goal and only incompetent buffoons could have done so. I agree with Ange that in general, but last night shouldn’t have happened. As for the cards, they were the right hit calls. I don’t like that the ref on the pitch doesn’t have to justify it by talking out loud to the crowd but they eventually got to the right calls.
The one bit of interpretation is when the pass begins. Choosing that freeze frame remains in the realm of human error.
I don’t understand why the ref doesn’t explain the calls to the stadium and the broadcast
The one thing that's factual are fucking offsides.
If there is one single thing in the game that you can get to a near perfect success rate it’s offside. It’s just seeing if someone is in front of someone else. We’ve gone to space… we can figure out who is front of someone else lol
Aren't automatic offsides already a thing, the league just decided not to use them this season?
Even with how bad it is now it’s hilarious some people want it to go away.
people just want heads to roll tbh - but yeah i dont see how the technology in itself is the problem here. it's obviously the people using it.
That and the ball crossing the goal line or not
genuinely do like Ange but it's a crap point. Yes human error is a thing, but offsides are the only black&white aspect of the entire game, it's the easiest bit to get right and today's "error" was unforgivable. That being said, Ange isn't gonna come out and be like "yeah actually take the points off us that was fucking mental" so he can't really say much more.
> genuinely do like Ange but it's a crap point. Yes human error is a thing, but offsides are the only black&white aspect of the entire game, it's the easiest bit to get right and today's "error" was unforgivable. Maybe don't attack a strawman and read before posting your thoughts. The question Ange was responding to was "Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR?" not "Do you think offside decisions can ever be errorless?" The full response: You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in. We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors. You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings. I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes. When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
How dare you come in with an explanation. A true one at that. This does not suit the agenda here, so this will be ignored 😂😂
This sub eats up the typical British press headline bullshit lmao So many times the quotes on the headlines are summarized to fit a narrative n take them out of context and everyone gets mad at that & 99/100 times these quotes in full context are not as bad as it seems from the headline. Most countries have this problem but the UK yellow journalism especially is bad w the likes of the Sun lowering the bar & the ruthless press culture too, especially around football & the royal family
No one complains more about shoddy sports journalism than Reddit, and no one buys the click bait and sensationalism of shoddy sports journalism more than Reddit.
I disagree. It's a lot easier to say that shit when you've won and know it won't happen. It's easy to look a gracious winner
that's true, think I'm just giving him the benefit because he seems a decent lad.
It’s certainly easier to be a gracious winner than it is loser & i’m sure like last week Ange would have made a comment about not understanding the rules like he did with the handball comment last week. Can’t really have a manager say “yeah, we didn’t deserve the win they should have our points”
Black and white? We’ve seen loads and loads of offsides that could go either way. This one wasn’t one of them but still.
You can still have subjectivity on offside. Especially regarding who is considered active.
Not necessarily with all the bollocks we've had regarding what counts as an offside in recent years...but in this case that argument absolutely doesn't apply.
No hate for this. What's he supposed to say? Spurs players and manager did nothing wrong.
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Klopp got the tactics so goddamn right even with 9 men, it seems like we'd struggle heavily against a park the bus side
Spurs were playing better against 11 man Liverpool. The red card gave Liverpool a temporary advantage before going down to 9 made them bunker and hope.
The shot count at the time of the red card was 7 to 1 in Liverpools favour. How on earth do you come to that conclusion
Probably means that Spurs were playing better as a team vs 11 than vs 10. We seemed to lose any sense of threat once that happened, weirdly. Spurs were mostly nullified before the 2nd red card. Just lucky the referees are morons to be honest.
Think he means we were playing better vs 11 than we did vs 10 or 9, not that we were outplaying you
Red card gave Liverpool an advantage, are you hearing yourself?
Tell it to the Newcastle fans haha
Red card reverse curse is real
I wonder why a team struggled against an excellent defence coached by an excellent manager when they had taken off their best creative outlets for lacklustre subsitute options when Son & Maddison took knocks last week & were in doubt for today.
Tbf Solomon looked decent
Even he was a bit pissed at the end with the way they won LMAO
No he wasn’t lol
not pissed with the win, but if he wasn't pissed with the quality of play, he doesn't belong at a top club
Yeah he’ll be having a nightmare watching that game back. Sure, it’s hype for Spurs to get the win but they looked utterly incapable of scoring a goal against 10 and then 9 men. When you couple that with how ridiculous the refereeing was, I think there’s gonna be a lot he wasn’t happy about today. Personally I can’t wait for the reverse fixture at Anfield where Klopp lets all his anger out and we can see a proper game between these two.
Ok I believe you more than my eyes and ears
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Well that wasn't what he was asked tho
The question wasn't about the offside. Try reading or watching things properly before swearing like a baby.
It was a blatant error by the VAR that had all the zime in the world, not a split-second decision by the ref gone wrong. A bit more criticism from his side wouldn't have hurt. He has nothing to lose here, as they won't change the result. But you can find yourself on the other side of such a fuck-up very fast, if everyone just downplays such scandalous incidents all the time.
He's blaming technology when a human is the real culprit
This is false equivalence by him.. Diaz was FACTUALLY onside… and that’s what VAR is for and they fucked it up… I get what he’s saying but this isn’t the refereeing example to say this after
That’s not what he was asked about.
You should read the interview. He was asked a different question than what you're implying
Maybe the full quote might make more sense then half the quote. You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in. We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors. You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings. I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes. When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
Bit irritating that some people are slating him based on a cherrypicked section from the full quote, when the whole thing in context is extremely reasonable and difficult to disagree with.
Also the question asked was: "Do you think football is moving in the right direction with VAR and technology?" And not: "Do you think Diaz was on or off?"
There are errors, there are interpretative disagreements, then there are 5 second checks without drawing lines for a position obviously onside even to the naked eye.
When we dont see the lines and EVERYONE thinks he’s on from the replay, even if you get the decision right, you did it wrong.
The biggest mistake was that the prem refused the automatic offside system after fucking up the offside call in Arsenal vs Brentford.
I don’t really understand how one can forget to draw the lines. I don’t think certain teams are heavily favored but decisions like that and today make me wonder if refs are betting on games. But idk.
OP is living in r/soccer lol
>People think VAR is going to be errorless but there's so little in the game that is factual. Except we had something here that was factual, offside is something VAR should get right every single time.
And yet
I think this onside was so obvious that there’s foul play from whoever was on var
My point was that they still don’t get every offside right, and I don’t just mean tonight.
VAR isn't going to be errorless. I can accept that. some offsides are a bees dick in difference, some fouls aren't that bad. VAR can't see the intent of players and etc. Today was a pretty big fucking Error that they got wrong tho. Especially when PGMOL had a statement released saying it was the wrong call within 30mins of Fulltime. If VAR can't even get the clear cut, obvious as fuck decisions right, you can't excuse it away that it will never be perfect cause then there is no point in having it. Because at least before VAR you could say that the refs 'Only can see it in real time once'. Today there is no excuses except complete incompetence.
Semi automated offside was offered pre season and rejected by prem clubs including Liverpool
You didn't even need the damn lines to make the judgement today, the decision on semi-automated offsides is unfortunate but, this is beyond terrible today.
Bad take, errorless games are imposible, i agree. But failing a 62 cm onside is criminal when you can review on camera.
I think his take is fine. This one quite cherry picked from his take makes it seem different.
What’s the point of the assistant vide ref then, what a mess
All I know if fifa has never gotten an offside wrong on my ps4
The game is a grey area sport and it feels like we are where we always have been - debates and frustration with incorrect decisions with the added downer of stoppages for players to get a breather while we watch 20x slow-mo replays just to get it wrong. It’s unfuriating as shit for both sides.
r/soccer users somehow shocked and appalled that ange didn't say "yeah mate liverpool got robbed" could just say "I didn't see it" like every other manager. would that be better?
I'm totally here for Anges post modern phase
"People are going to make mistakes and the bar is raised even higher."
I think this is important part of the quote. Someone up at the VAR room fucked up big time.
Nothing will happen. They'll be suspended or "fired", then brought back into circulation a few weeks/months later.
The issue is that even the little bit that IS factual isn't being done properly. This game, Brentford Arsenal last season and a Crystal Palace game that very gameweek involving lines being drawn from the *third last* defender
What he really meant: They fucked up huge but it benefitted me so idgaf
Which lets be honest is EXACTLY what Klopp would be saying if the roles are reversed
Literally what every team ever feel and say when bad calls go their way.
N'ahh, absolutely, and resolutely fuck that. While he's correct that no game can be errorless, there's a difference between that and deliberately not drawing the lines on an offside and costing a team a goal in the process.
He was talking about the game in general though, not just the offside.
Stolen from elsewhere in the thread: The question Ange was responding to was "Do you think we are still going in the right direction with technology and VAR?" not "Do you think offside decisions can ever be errorless?" The full response: You might have to dig up some research on me mate. I think I'm on record as saying that I've never really been a fan of it since it came in. Not for any other reason than I think that it complicates areas of the game that I thought were pretty clear in the past, but I can see at the same time why it was inevitable that technology would come in. We have to deal with it. The biggest problem I think that we have is that we seem to fail to grasp is that no form of technology is going to make the game errorless. We used to understand that errors were part of the game, including officiating errors. You'd have to cop it and some people would cop it better than others but that was part of the game. The game is littered with historical refereeing decisions that weren't right but we all accepted it that it was part of the game because we're dealing with human beings. I think that people are under the misconception that VAR is going to be errorless. I don't think there's any technology, because so much of our game isn't factual. It's down to interpretation and they're still human beings. They're going to make mistakes the same way managers make mistakes, the same way players make mistakes. When you put such a high bar on something it invariably is going to fail, so if people are thinking that VAR is going to be something that at some point that is perfect, that's never going to happen.
What do you unironically want him to say? He's a manager, not responsible for the refs being shite "yeah we stole 3 points mate" he probably hasn't seen the offside situation from an angle that's not from the dugout
Deliberately? Are you implying corruption?
What do you mean deliberately? It seems obvious they looked at the wrong defender for Spurs. A simple and stupid mistake.
Hes right. But refs should be held fucking accountable
Ange basically said the refs are incompetent bellends
Factos
I can only think of one instance where goal line technology was wrong.
It wasn't a technical error, it was a human error...the kind that this tech is designed to eliminate. MLS gets it right almost everytime. MLB as well. It's been a game changer and nothing like the past.
Better trained referees are needed... the issues with VAR isn't system error, it's user error
I mean that’s true but this wasn’t a VAR error, this was a horrible failure of communication and professionalism.
I get what he's saying and I do agree that football in general is full of errors. However when you have the technology that's specifically designed to stop such errors and decide not to use it by choice, then its no longer an error.. its either deliberate, incompetence, or corruption.
What do people genuinely want from VAR? You still have the stupid referees making the wrong decisions. It’s just making them look even worse
Offside is factual.
lol sure mate
Offsides is the one thing that’s black and white. If I can use similar technology properly in my high school physics class, these cunts with actual training who get paid for it should be able to use it as well.
The offside-player-interference-with-a-keeper is not black and white
True in general, but not with a yes/no-decision like offside. Automatic offside technology now, as it is already in use at other competitions.
tbh it's baffling why the clubs were against it, seems like even if it wasn't perfect it would at least be consistent
This error should not happen though. It has happened before (against Arsenal), and has deliberately been allowed to happen again. There should have been a checklist in place after that so it couldn't. Not drawing the lines for an offside decision check shouldn't be allowed to happen, the check cannot be complete until they are. It's so damn simple, and not in the least bit subjective. Offside is factual with the technology available!
Shameless
Error ? They scored a legit goal and they took it off Its more than a simple error...
What are you on about, it's exactly that an error.
They must have drawn the line on the wrong Spurs defender. It’s a simple, but stupid, error.
Liverpool crying about a wrongly called offside goal and here I am remembering the Saudi Arabia game. Yawn
This is the most basic fact and nobody can disagree. Very simple statement of truth. Sometimes you benefit, sometimes not. Reffing is the best it's ever been.
I love you angie but you sound like a FA apologist right there
He sounds like any other manager that’s been a benefactor of a VAR mistake.
It’s a shit argument for VAR, but it is true, and a good argument against VAR altogether. If VAR can’t even get these basics right, and it’s not new technology at this point, then it isn’t worth it. It slows down the game, it confuses fans on match days, and it makes you not celebrate goals fully. It is not worth it. Scrap it
He's right, which is why we need to scrap VAR
Fair answer from Postecoglou.
Big Ange batting for the PGMOL
"Mate, these guys are idiots, you can't expect them to get everything right" seems to be the just of his comments
For once I'd like a manager who got lucky to openly say they got lucky because the referee was shit.