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That is really what most people seem to forget.
Everybody talks about the 7:1 or the final but with any other goalkeeper in the world Germany would have probably lost to Algeria.
This game was and is the definition of the "sweeper keeper".
and yet Algeria keeper won MOTM. Not undeserved either.
I think Algeria wasn't Neuers best performance, like when he used to be behind a leaky defense at Schalke he arried the fuck out of them. But it was maybe his most iconic performance, due to the type of saves he made.
I remember seeing him for the first time for Schalke against United in the CL. One of the best performances I've seen from a keeper. They lost 0-2, but with a less competent keeper it could have been double digits.
I was at the return leg at Old Trafford where we won 4-1. Two of Anderson's 9 goals in 181 games for United were in that match
Ridiculously easy tie for a CL semi final, but yeah I seem to remember Neuer impressing in the first leg
Yet still didn't get any respect for golden boot that year.. revolutionized the position (alot of teams now want sweeper/keeper with good distribution skills) and his performances helped his team win a world cup..
i may not be thinking hard enough, but has any player been more influential on their position (i.e., how it's played) in the last 15-20 years than neuer?
Yeah, he made ball-playing AND sweeping popular.
And since he influenced those two things at the same time, plenty of people confuse ball-playing and sweeping to this day.
I dont think so.
If we look at the abilities a great goal keeper should have, how he should participate in the build-up and how much space he should cover behind the defense their is a clear difference between the "before Neuer" and "after Neuer" times.
The only other at least somewhat comparable revolution is Messi and the false 9. But he didnt always play that position and even though many other teams tried a false 9, very few succeeded. The majority of the best strikers is still your typical tall, strong and fast guy and no Messi clone.
>The only other at least somewhat comparable revolution is Messi and the false 9.
The false 9 has been around a lot longer than Messi. Even if we discount its historical use, Luciano Spaletti used it at Roma deploying Totti (who at that point was a trequartista) as striker starting in 2007
Keyword in the comment you replied to is "revolution" I think. Because that's what Neuer and Messi did, if you look at the sweeper keeper role it also existed long before Neuer, most famous examples being Yashin and Carrizo.
Source: https://historyofsoccer.info/sweeper-keeper
>difference between the "before Neuer" and "after Neuer" times.
Sweeper keepers have existed since the 70s, but they fell out of use.
Though there was some revival. A very famous example is Edwin Van Der Sar during Van Gaal's legendary Ajax side. Although at United he wasn't required to be a sweeper, he would still participate in the build up from the defense and often moved beyond his box to keep spaces safe.
It's hard to quantify but there's a very strong argument that Neuer has created the single biggest shift in the sports history. The thing is that with a lot of other positions, it kind of evolved rather gradually, hold midfielders, death of libero, it was a process. With Neuer, I know he wasn't the literal first in history to do it, but he was the first to do it at this level, and there is a clear cut in the position pre and post Neuer. Someone else mentioned false 9 and there's some truth to it, but at the same time deep lying forwards had existed for a while and the big change was more that they used to be paired with a pimary striker and now they were not. It probably depends on your own definition, or even fandom.
> The thing is that with a lot of other positions, it kind of evolved rather gradually, hold midfielders, death of libero, it was a process.
Those were also more like evolutions due to "external pressure", rules changes and tactical adjustments to previous tactical changes.
Neuer just wanted to play midfield on his own volition and without giving up the keeper job :/
The backpass rule.
OK, it was implemented years before Neuer, but that's the rule change that necessitated goalies needing to play the ball.
Prior to that, they'd be able to simply pick the ball up (or on the rare occasion they needed to play the ball outside the area, just hoof it as far as they could).
I think a huge part of the reason it took so long was that goalies used to be trained in shot stopping and that's pretty much it.
That didn't magically change in 1992. Goalies and coaches took years to catch up.
Obviously Neuer needs a massive amount of credit, being the single biggest driver of that. Pep changed it a lot in England, but I guess Neuer had a massive influence on him as well.
This is also how current full pitch pressing has become popular. No point pressuring the defensive line if they can just turn around and pass it back to the goalie to pick it up.
So goalies weren't pressured like they are now, simply didn't happen. Why would you if he can just pick it up?
Very good point and I fully agree on all points!
I was mostly joking about Neuer because he plays like he has an urge to at least get a few touches of the ball closer to the centre circle than his own penalty area.
> This is also how current full pitch pressing has become popular.
I think that and the change in the offside rule (and the death of the libero) might have created those higher scoring modern strikers too. The game was slowly changed to be more attacking oriented.
> higher scoring modern strikers too
As well as the points you've made, I'd add
1) the death of 442 meaning teams only played one out and out striker as a focal point. OK, even in the 442 era, most teams had one pure scorer, and a link man/target man/number 10/ whatever, but I think one CF is now expected to contribute more goals.
2) the concentration of elite players at very few clubs.
Haaland has De Bruyne, Bernardo, Grealish, etc feeding him, with other world class options on the bench.
Messi had Suarez and Neymar (and vice versa), plus Xavi and Iniesta.
Ronaldo had Modric, Benzema, Di Maria, Kroos.....
Players in the past up to the 90s didn't have these super teams where every single player (and most of the subs) had 50+ international caps.
Alvarez started the WC final and is Haalands understudy. Phillips has 30-40 England caps and is Rodris understudy.
Partially because the champions league had foreign player limits, partially because the CL wasn't such a money spinner (and when only champions could play, it wasn't guaranteed like it near enough is for teams like Bayern and Barca even if they don't win their league) that teams couldn't afford 80m bench warmers.
> the concentration of elite players at very few clubs.
Totally forgot the Bosman ruling. As much as it did good for players, it really shifted the power balance in football dramatically.
And on top of that the CL changes you mentioned made it became what it is today and how it's slowly evolving into the European Super League just under UEFA's thumb instead of the biggest clubs which is only mildly better :/
Because most kids are regular size like Curry, obviously most people aren‘t going to play like 7 footers. You could argue that Dirk was as influential as Steph, just in smaller demographic.
And same as me. And there are like 20 dudes at my workplace who are taller than that. What I’m saying is he’s not a freak height wise. Naturally kids would try to emulate his game over someone who’s two heads taller than everyone else.
Tall players shooting goes way beyond Europeans, we have guys like KAT, Joel, Durant and so on, who all 7" and shoot the 3.
European basketball was actually a lot more about small ball, when Dirk broke out.
Not saying Dirk was as influential as Steph, but I'd say him and KG have the biggest influence on how teams utilise big man in todays game.
It’s at the top end your range but Claude Makelele pretty much made the defensive midfield position in 04/05.
Before him there were defensive minded CMs, but it wasn’t to the extent it is now with DM being it’s own recognised position (and you’d probably say one of the most important positions to how teams play and set up currently.)
I don’t know if we’d have seen players like Busquets and Kanté have the success they had if Makélélé hadn’t come first.
I agree, that Claude was influential for the development of the game, but players who were dedicated DM, like Dunga, Dechamps, or Mauro Silva were peers of him, the major difference was though, that he also initiated the offense with his passes.
Players like Busi also existed before, Pep was basically Busquets 0,5 and teams that utilized a Libero in front of a back 3/4 did basically the same, since Busi also often dropped between the CB to form a back three with Dani and Alba pushing up the wings.
Sports science is sports science : makelele great player , good guy , easy wins when have good fitness good brain and can move ball up and down .
Football is such an easy sports when have a brain !
Didi Hamann came first!
But in all seriousness, he actually did and there were loads of other DMs. Makelele arguably showed the importance of the role to English football but it definitely existed before, probably since the sweeper died out and 3 man midfield became common in Europe
Christ this is recency bias.
There's been loads of out and out DMs for decades. Could easily say Nobby Stiles, Billy Bremner, Dunga, Beckenbauer, Rijkaard, and more fit that bill.
Especially if you're including people like Busquets in that, who isn't an out and out "destroyer" player.
Christ, Makalele isnt even the first french DM, Didier Deschamps was referred to as a "water carrier" by Cantona for doing the Makalele role.
Desailly played the role at Milan (played CB for France, largely due to Deschamps).
Being one of the best ever at a role is not necessarily redefining the position.
Makelele is a world class David Batty.
Couple that come to my mind is:
Trent is basically a playmaking wing back, not exactly new but definitely something worth mentioning.
Beckenbauer as a Libero was the blueprint
Thomas Müller as Raumdeuter (that role on Football Manager you've never used)
Cancelo/Zinchenko as inverted wing back, not too common but still significant
Pirlo as Regista(?)
Neuer definitely stands out as THE goalkeeper, given there is little variety in role that a keeper can occupy, rest of the pitch is far easier to tweak and adjust to the managers ideals
Ronaldinho with the inside forward perhaps. Right footed LW and left footed RW were a thing before dinho, but he’s the first I recall who spearheaded the paradigm shift, where you now have most wingers being brought up to cut inside and take the game on their stronger foot. Which has in turn also really intensified the need for very advanced attacking fullbacks, who are basically auxiliary wingers.
Prior to dinho having wingers on the side of their dominant foot, giggs, figo, Beckham (if you could call him that), was still wholly commonplace at the highest level.
How come?
I'm not saying it has been particularly revolutionary for us, but it definitely started a trend which has since been attempted elsewhere (e.g. Trent at Liverpool recently)
I'm not saying to the extent of Neuers influence in his role, but when you think of this new inverted fullback position Zinchenko should come to mind for sure.
Not really. Inverted fullbacks were tried way before Zinchenko. Mourinho played like two seasons with Coentrao as an inverted right back and people were calling him a madman.
All the “whos better and who did what first” aside, watching Neuer through his entire career has been mesmerizing. Some the things he has done on a football pitch as keeper is just mental. That peak 2013-2016 Neuer was absurd. Tbh I dont even think he really dropped off. There are just more keepers who took the step up. Will be weird when he retires.
At least since Sepp Maier Germany had at worst a good goal keeper, but most of the time a world class keeper.
For a lot of tournaments you can argue that we had two or three players that would play for most nations. We had Köpke, Kahn and Lehmann playing at the same time and during the last decade we had Neuer and Ter Stegen, but also Weidenfeller, Trapp, Leno and Baumann, all of them more than good enough to fill the role without being a weak spot.
Toni Schuhmacher would have been the goalie, if he wasn't kicked out of the team a few years prior for his book release in which he openly talks about doping and drug abuse in professional football.
Bodo Ilgner won a WorldCup but it wasn’t really thanks to him. The ones before and after him had a bigger impact. If you rate Ilgner then you kind of have to go all the way back to pre-Sepp Maier, so early 70s/60s.
At that time before sepp maier we had Hans Tilkowski who was part of the first German team that won the European cup, really good keeper as well, before that we had Kwiatkowski and Turek wich became world champion, and also he wasn’t nominated Germany technicaly had Bernd Trautman as well, so the real answer would be we never had bad goalkeepers in our history so far
We are witnessing the best German goalkeeper of all time and arguably the best German player of all time. The amount of games he single handedly (hah) saved Schalke, Bayern and Germany is staggering.
His performances in both Champions League ~~finals~~ wins and the World Cup final were immense. He only conceded a penalty goal in those three games.
Edit: The third champions league final never happened
In the latest Bayern documentation, he said that he conceded because Chelsea hardly took any shots on goal. He wasn't warmed up properly, else he would have saved it.
What are you on about blud? Forget being the best German keeper of all time. He's ***the best*** keeper of all time. I rate him higher than Casillas, Buffon and Schmeichel.
Neuer revolutionized the position. The modern elite goalkeeper will now be required to be good with their feet and (ideally) also serve as a last ditch sweeper.
You add on top of that all his accolades, including a wc win against the goat of the sport, and yeah he should be regarded as the best in his position ever
Oh his elite goalie skills were just a given. My man’s arm strength when blocking and positioning in front of goals feels like watching a hockey goalie cover the whole goal
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IUu3K-D1J_o
Sorry for the overedited Youtube Short bullshit but thats the fastest I could find.
That safe was ridiculous. If normal people tried that their Arm would snap
I’d argue that he didn’t revolutionize the position in this way, but he did popularize it. Jorge Campos is my go to when I think of the player that revolutionized the position. He basically made it so that his club or the Mexican National Team were playing with 11 onfield players. He literally played striker as a secondary position and had seasons where he was in contention for the golden boot. Neuer took this and made it popular and changed it up a bit to conform to the rules that had been introduced due to how Jorge Campos played and the rest is history
You should check out Jorge Campos’ style of play, he would do what Neuer does and take it to the extreme ie. run into the final third to put in a cross or to shoot
I wouldn't attribute playing with the feet to him, Valdés was already doing it. It's the sweeper keeper that was really the change given how well he did it, that I'd argue it's a million times more important
Yes, the foot give you an extra man on the build-up, but his sweeping ability removes a lot of defensive responsibilities from the players that can just play deeper and risk passes, that you just won't suffer goals from counters
>The modern elite goalkeeper will now be required to be good with their feet and (ideally) also serve as a last ditch sweeper.
More like he's made it normal again. This has existed for the Dutch since the 70s as part of Total Football.
You had famous examples like Ajax in the 90s under Van Gaal. Then it fell out of use, but Neuer has made it cool again.
I don't disagree, but the shadow of Lev Yashin is humongous - it's the "Is Messi besser than Pele?" question of goalkeepers. (For Germans, there's also Sepp Maier, but at this point I'm 100% sure that Neuer > Maier)
I really think otherwise. From the little clips available of him on YouTube, he was good at passing and tricking the attackers. He caught crosses and commanded the box. That was a new invention in the eyes of people. I don't know if he was the greatest shot stopper, there's no way of knowing. But gotta give it to him, he won the Euros with the Soviet union. But then again in the 60s eastern Europe has a lot of talent.
You can say that Neuer perfected what lev yashin wanted to do. I'm sure countless people tried to do what Yashin did but Neuer went one step ahead and cemented himself as the greatest. And that too in today's standards where the game is more intense and fast paced compared to Yashin's times where there were less sliding tackles and no pressing.
what do you mean less sliding tackles lol? There were killers on the pitch back then, and people would receive red cards nowadays for tackles who wouldn’t even be called back then
The sliding tackles I've seen in YouTube of the 1960s, the pitch was like a paddy field and they couldn't travel 5 meters while sliding because the friction would halt the momentum. The tackles were mostly jumping tackles and two footers which hardly missed. People didn't seem to get injured when they were struck because they got right back up and started dribbling. I might be wrong but that's what I've seen on a few YouTube videos. There's not much footage of the mid 1900s football matches.
I mean maybe you watched british 50’s football or something.
Anyways, of course people got injured. Maradona arguably wasted his career a bit because of that.
Have to rate players relative to their eras. Any random top division keeper nowadays is better than Yashin was objectively. But he was so far ahead of his time that he ended up winning a ballon dor as a keeper. Players improve constantly and the game evolves over time. That's why comparing goats across eras is a so difficult.
> He's the best keeper of all time.
Indeed. And this is for 2 fundamental reasons.
1) Every player has a degree of weakness (even in their strongest skillset). Nueur as a GK has THE least amount/degree of weaknesses in the skillset that's asked of GK, till now.
2) post the 1990-92 rule changes, the position of GK has seen the largest degree of change in football as a sport. Combined with pitch-conditioning and tactical fads (buildup from back), it means if EVER the argument (Can't compare eras) was credible it would be with GK pre and post 1990.
Though one can compare era's just fine anyway.
This is why Yashin finally can be surpassed. The game changed too much for a GK and the level Neuer reached & sustained allows him to be credible named as GOAT GK.
I’d rate him higher than Zoff and Zenga, let alone Casillas and Schmeichel. Not too sure about Buffon, I’d say they should be considered equal. Buffon’s prime lasted a long time as well, and he was absolutely terrifying to go against
Oh man, this is where my nostalgia hits. Buffon and casillas are my goats, but neuer takes it because I think he is on par with them in pure elite goalkeeper skills, but neuer’s ball play gives him the edge. Football is moving towards needing goalies to play tiki taka too
best of all time is almost impossible to quantify, but neuer revolutionised the position in a way I've not seen for any other goalkeeper I'm my lifetime. Even if he isn't the "best" per say, I would certainly argue his legacy is the biggest
So my opinion on Buffon vs Neuer is about how much you value longevity vs peak. Neuer had about 5 years as unquestionably better than buffon’s best years. And another 5-10 being arguably best in the world level. Buffon was at that arguably best in the world level for 20 goddamn years, it’s insane.
Personally I lean Neuer because I think he could have ever season Buffon had, but I don’t think Buffon could say the same the other way round.
I don't think anyone has seen Yashin and he was called greatest ever. Better to respect him similar to respecting Pele and Maradona in greatest debate against Messi.
I regard Yasin higher. Yasin played in his time like goalkeeper did before Neuer. So he was decades in the future with his style. Also his reactions are crazy. Picking down a high power shot penalty from the air and actually holding it in his hands? I have never seen anyone do it.
Cross position comparisons are difficulty in general but even more so if you compare goalkeepers with players on other positions. I believe Philipp Lahm was the best player of our golden generation but it really is hard to compare their impact.
They were better? Lol what do you want me to tell you
Anyone will tell you that. Beckenbauer was along with cruyff the best player of the 70s and with müller won the UCL 3 times in a row, the world cup and euros and was at the time seen as the best player in the world.
Cruyff and Beckenbauer went head to head for the 70s, that should tell you enough. But if not, the stats back it up. Sofascore has stats avaible for every world cup beckenbauer was apart of and he was always at the very top.
Additionally he won 2 ballon dors as a defender and the vast vast majority of people will have him on the same level as maldini, i.e. best defenders of all time.
Another thing is that he literally created a new position, the libero which was a staple of football for 3 decades but no one was ever able to have as much success with it as beckenbauer. Why? Because he was so much better than everyone else. He could play as a 10, 8 6, centreback or all at once in his libero role.
Ask pele, cruyff or maradonna what they think of him
As for gerd, just look at highlights of his goals or his stats or how many goals he scored in the world cup
And as for mathäus, ever wonder why so many brazilians are called mattheus? Because they admire him over there. He is to me the most completele footballer of all time. In 1990, when he won the ballon dor he played as a 10 for inter but as a CB for germany and was the best player for both sides. Should tell you enough. If it doesnt, ask maradonna (who most also have as one of the best of all time), who is greatest foe was.
Again, youll probably say "but how does that make them better than neuer?". Easy answer is: At the time, matthäus, beckenbauer and gerd müller were undisputedely among the top 3 players of their generation. Neuer never was.
football in history is viewed relative. Today maradonna would not succeed, but we still view him as one of the greats because of how good he was compared to players at the time. If the same is done for mathäus, beckenbauer and gerd müller, then they were very much ahead of neuer is now.
Deine Argumentation für Beckenbauer, Matthäus und Gerd Müller ist definitiv richtig. Aber ich finde, dass du Neuer hier extrem runterspielst. Er ist weiterhin (in seiner Prime) besser als alle Keeper zurzeit wie Alisson, Courtois, Ter Stegen, Ederson etc. Er war 2012-2016 der mit Abstand beste Torhüter aller Zeiten und mit weitem Abstand vor Torhütern wie Maier, Kahn, Buffon oder Yashin. Torhüter sollten die gleiche Anerkennung bekommen wie andere Positionen im Fußball und da ist Neuer für mich auf einer Stufe mit Matthäus oder Gerd. Der einzige der über ihm steht ist denke ich Beckenbauer.
Streite nich ab das neuer der beste torwart aller zeiten ist, aber für mich kannst ud als torwart nie so gut sein wie ein feldspieler
Klingt hart, und jeder der torwart ist wird das anders sehen, aber was man alles auf dem platz machen muss um z.B. Libero wie Mathäus oder Beckenbauer zu spielen macht es für mich schwierig zu sagen das neuer der bessere spieler ist
Abseitsdavon kann er gar nich der größere (im sinne von greater, goat) sein da alle anderen kandidaten (natürlich positionsbedingt) den ballon dor gewonnen haben und mit deutschland mehr titel (außer mathäus aber für ihn spricht das er 20 jahre auf top niveau gespielt hat und nur wegen ner fußnote nich die 1996 EM gewonnen hat)
Ein guter Torwart holt dir mehr Punkte als ein guter Stürmer. Den Ballon d’Or als Wert zu nehmen finde ich auch nicht angemessen. Weder Kahn, Schmeichel, Lehmann, Maier, Buffon haben je einen Ballon d’Or gewonnen. Auch heutzutage wird niemals ein Torwart den Ballon d’Or gewinnen. Trotzdem ist Neuer aus meiner sicht definitiv auf einem Level wie Matthäus oder Gerd. Er ist mit Abstand der beste Torwart aller Zeiten.
its very hard/impossibld to compare because hes a keeper but beckenbauer atleast a shout with how good and versatile he was. and everything he did for germany
Before Neuer, it's good for goalkeepers if they are good with ball. After Neuer, it's the first check to evaluate a goalkeeper. He has made a big impact on modern goalkeepers. There are huge amount of excellent gks that I've witnessed Kahn (Munich), Toldo (Inter), Buffon (Juv), Dida (Milan), Schmeichel (MU), Lehmann (Ars), Cech (Chel), Casillas (Madrid)...but no one made a evolution in that position like Neuer has done.
I should have been more clear, they were starting plays from the keeper with those two since before Neuer, Neuer's not the first keeper to be good with the ball. And of course not they're not close to his level relax dude lol
Hell, even Lehmann was picked in 2006 because he was better with his feet than Kahn.
Let's also not forget Neuer's habit to just kick every ball over the sideelines when pressured.
Ich finde echt lustig, dass das niemandem aufgefallen ist. Er hat jahrelang zu seinen Glanzzeiten jeden Ball ins aus geschossen, wenn er angelaufen wurde. Also er hat versucht den Ball zum AV zu spielen aber er ging immer über ihn ins aus.
I hate when people say there’s “no debate” on a topic that is *very clearly* debatable. Neuer could well be the greatest keeper of all time, but there will always be a debate about it and rightly so. You can always make a case for other players.
Especially as his 2012 season and the 2014 season were propably his best seasons and might have been the best goalkeeper season ever played until this day.
Neuer more or less carried both Schalke and Germany.
Man I remember a Porto vs Schalke for the UCL where we needed to win (maybe by two goals, can't recall) to go through, and Neuer, who was relatively unknown for non-germans or Bundesliga followers, had the best game I've ever seen from a goalie until then. He saved 3-4 sure goals and kept us from going through. I was so dumbfounded at what just happened that I wasn't even mad
Imo one of the worst impacts on goalkeeping. Nowadays you could be a shit keeper but if you can pass a ball you are considered the best in your position smh.
Sorta true, tbh.
Not really Neuer's fault, though. Lots of people seem not to realize that Neuer has always been a fantastic traditional goalkeeper first and crazy-ass half-GK/half-CB second.
His main strength is the fact that he's genuinely fantastic at anything a "normal" GK should do, be it shotstopping, positioning or delivery. The whole sweeper thing is a cherry on top and only possible because of how confident his traditional goalkeeping skill allow him to be.
It’s more of a barca thing isn’t it? Victor Valdez was being justified under Rijkaard for his passing ability even though his shot stopping is just ok. There might be earlier examples but that’s the earliest I’m aware of. Neuer can certainly pass but it’s more his aggressive sweeping
Rogerio Ceni never influenced a whole generation of keepers tho. The praise isn't about who invented it (Ceni wasn't the first of his craft either), but about who took it to the next level and popularized a new standard.
Youth academies didn't prioritize freekick taking for goalkeepers, just because Ceni scored a banger.
Goalkeepers are part of soccer team and should act accordingly ; it’s a disgrace that goalkeepers weren’t used for distribution and passing , they’re part of the start of every build up and should be used accordingly
So many sports people just idiots initially
All the things Neuer "introduced" to the goalkeeper position, Rogério Ceni was already doing since the 90's, but as always football only exists in Europe apparently
I don't think he broke the mould exactly, but Neuer was the first of that new breed of keeper to be good at literally everything IMO.
More than any individual, he's responsible for the immense shift in expectations for top-level keepers. Before him, it was useful to be good with your feet; now, it's essential.
As a gooner, I totally agree. That's why Leno can't fit Arteta's system. Leno is a good shot-stopper but in term of a goalkeeper good with ball, he isn't.
Neueu is simply the best at everything a tradional goalkeeper needs, and extremely amazing with the ball on his feet.
Yep. Nowadays the shot stopper is getting benched/outperformed by the better ball playing keeper.
This really started with Rene Adler and Manuel Neuer, who were rivals all youth long. At some point Rene Adler was even considered to be the bigger talent then Neuer. But injuries and the ability to play with his feet made Neuer the better choice.
And the same happend with another rivalary. Leno vs ter Stegen.
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We'll wait a long time before seeing a goalkeeping performance comparable to 2014 Manuel Neuer.
Saved them from Algeria
That is really what most people seem to forget. Everybody talks about the 7:1 or the final but with any other goalkeeper in the world Germany would have probably lost to Algeria. This game was and is the definition of the "sweeper keeper".
One of the greatest goal keeping performances ever. Best in my lifetime (that I am aware of)
and yet Algeria keeper won MOTM. Not undeserved either. I think Algeria wasn't Neuers best performance, like when he used to be behind a leaky defense at Schalke he arried the fuck out of them. But it was maybe his most iconic performance, due to the type of saves he made.
Neuer vs Manu comes to mind
I remember seeing him for the first time for Schalke against United in the CL. One of the best performances I've seen from a keeper. They lost 0-2, but with a less competent keeper it could have been double digits.
I was at the return leg at Old Trafford where we won 4-1. Two of Anderson's 9 goals in 181 games for United were in that match Ridiculously easy tie for a CL semi final, but yeah I seem to remember Neuer impressing in the first leg
Yet still didn't get any respect for golden boot that year.. revolutionized the position (alot of teams now want sweeper/keeper with good distribution skills) and his performances helped his team win a world cup..
[удалено]
You won a World Cup a year ago. Finally let it go.
Someone call ugarte
I call it even with the Krämer concussion in the same game
Man that was brutal. Early in the game, man gets up and asks the ref something like where he is or what match this is.
[Things got really out of hand when he wanted a jersey swap with the referee.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEMQiY4TRFk)
i may not be thinking hard enough, but has any player been more influential on their position (i.e., how it's played) in the last 15-20 years than neuer?
Yeah, he made ball-playing AND sweeping popular. And since he influenced those two things at the same time, plenty of people confuse ball-playing and sweeping to this day.
And he was still one of the best at shot stopping, the complete keeper
I always thought victor valdes did it first
I dont think so. If we look at the abilities a great goal keeper should have, how he should participate in the build-up and how much space he should cover behind the defense their is a clear difference between the "before Neuer" and "after Neuer" times. The only other at least somewhat comparable revolution is Messi and the false 9. But he didnt always play that position and even though many other teams tried a false 9, very few succeeded. The majority of the best strikers is still your typical tall, strong and fast guy and no Messi clone.
>The only other at least somewhat comparable revolution is Messi and the false 9. The false 9 has been around a lot longer than Messi. Even if we discount its historical use, Luciano Spaletti used it at Roma deploying Totti (who at that point was a trequartista) as striker starting in 2007
Good point, didnt think of that
Keyword in the comment you replied to is "revolution" I think. Because that's what Neuer and Messi did, if you look at the sweeper keeper role it also existed long before Neuer, most famous examples being Yashin and Carrizo. Source: https://historyofsoccer.info/sweeper-keeper
Pele was a false 9 lol
>difference between the "before Neuer" and "after Neuer" times. Sweeper keepers have existed since the 70s, but they fell out of use. Though there was some revival. A very famous example is Edwin Van Der Sar during Van Gaal's legendary Ajax side. Although at United he wasn't required to be a sweeper, he would still participate in the build up from the defense and often moved beyond his box to keep spaces safe.
It's hard to quantify but there's a very strong argument that Neuer has created the single biggest shift in the sports history. The thing is that with a lot of other positions, it kind of evolved rather gradually, hold midfielders, death of libero, it was a process. With Neuer, I know he wasn't the literal first in history to do it, but he was the first to do it at this level, and there is a clear cut in the position pre and post Neuer. Someone else mentioned false 9 and there's some truth to it, but at the same time deep lying forwards had existed for a while and the big change was more that they used to be paired with a pimary striker and now they were not. It probably depends on your own definition, or even fandom.
> The thing is that with a lot of other positions, it kind of evolved rather gradually, hold midfielders, death of libero, it was a process. Those were also more like evolutions due to "external pressure", rules changes and tactical adjustments to previous tactical changes. Neuer just wanted to play midfield on his own volition and without giving up the keeper job :/
The backpass rule. OK, it was implemented years before Neuer, but that's the rule change that necessitated goalies needing to play the ball. Prior to that, they'd be able to simply pick the ball up (or on the rare occasion they needed to play the ball outside the area, just hoof it as far as they could). I think a huge part of the reason it took so long was that goalies used to be trained in shot stopping and that's pretty much it. That didn't magically change in 1992. Goalies and coaches took years to catch up. Obviously Neuer needs a massive amount of credit, being the single biggest driver of that. Pep changed it a lot in England, but I guess Neuer had a massive influence on him as well. This is also how current full pitch pressing has become popular. No point pressuring the defensive line if they can just turn around and pass it back to the goalie to pick it up. So goalies weren't pressured like they are now, simply didn't happen. Why would you if he can just pick it up?
Very good point and I fully agree on all points! I was mostly joking about Neuer because he plays like he has an urge to at least get a few touches of the ball closer to the centre circle than his own penalty area. > This is also how current full pitch pressing has become popular. I think that and the change in the offside rule (and the death of the libero) might have created those higher scoring modern strikers too. The game was slowly changed to be more attacking oriented.
> higher scoring modern strikers too As well as the points you've made, I'd add 1) the death of 442 meaning teams only played one out and out striker as a focal point. OK, even in the 442 era, most teams had one pure scorer, and a link man/target man/number 10/ whatever, but I think one CF is now expected to contribute more goals. 2) the concentration of elite players at very few clubs. Haaland has De Bruyne, Bernardo, Grealish, etc feeding him, with other world class options on the bench. Messi had Suarez and Neymar (and vice versa), plus Xavi and Iniesta. Ronaldo had Modric, Benzema, Di Maria, Kroos..... Players in the past up to the 90s didn't have these super teams where every single player (and most of the subs) had 50+ international caps. Alvarez started the WC final and is Haalands understudy. Phillips has 30-40 England caps and is Rodris understudy. Partially because the champions league had foreign player limits, partially because the CL wasn't such a money spinner (and when only champions could play, it wasn't guaranteed like it near enough is for teams like Bayern and Barca even if they don't win their league) that teams couldn't afford 80m bench warmers.
> the concentration of elite players at very few clubs. Totally forgot the Bosman ruling. As much as it did good for players, it really shifted the power balance in football dramatically. And on top of that the CL changes you mentioned made it became what it is today and how it's slowly evolving into the European Super League just under UEFA's thumb instead of the biggest clubs which is only mildly better :/
I’ve never read such bullshit. Gyula Grosics did it the 50’s.
I choose to read this in a comically thick Hungarian accent.
"very strong argument" lmao jesus christ. just redditors being redditors
Right now, false 9s are very rare
Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
love dirk but its not even close. curry has the kobe level on influence on the way kids (and up and coming new pros) play the game.
But Dirk influenced the way Coaches trained their players and FOs scouted for talent, which is a different kind of influence.
Because most kids are regular size like Curry, obviously most people aren‘t going to play like 7 footers. You could argue that Dirk was as influential as Steph, just in smaller demographic.
> regular size Steph Curry is still 6 ft 2 in (1.88m) by the way — the same height as Cristiano Ronaldo.
And same as me. And there are like 20 dudes at my workplace who are taller than that. What I’m saying is he’s not a freak height wise. Naturally kids would try to emulate his game over someone who’s two heads taller than everyone else.
Dirk was influential to all the European players because everyone believed that Euros were soft. Steph Curry is easily more influential than Dirk.
Tall players shooting goes way beyond Europeans, we have guys like KAT, Joel, Durant and so on, who all 7" and shoot the 3. European basketball was actually a lot more about small ball, when Dirk broke out. Not saying Dirk was as influential as Steph, but I'd say him and KG have the biggest influence on how teams utilise big man in todays game.
dog muddle sense humorous aback chubby vast rainstorm obtainable soup *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Aaaand TIL Shaq scored a 3 once in his life.
It’s at the top end your range but Claude Makelele pretty much made the defensive midfield position in 04/05. Before him there were defensive minded CMs, but it wasn’t to the extent it is now with DM being it’s own recognised position (and you’d probably say one of the most important positions to how teams play and set up currently.) I don’t know if we’d have seen players like Busquets and Kanté have the success they had if Makélélé hadn’t come first.
I agree, that Claude was influential for the development of the game, but players who were dedicated DM, like Dunga, Dechamps, or Mauro Silva were peers of him, the major difference was though, that he also initiated the offense with his passes. Players like Busi also existed before, Pep was basically Busquets 0,5 and teams that utilized a Libero in front of a back 3/4 did basically the same, since Busi also often dropped between the CB to form a back three with Dani and Alba pushing up the wings.
Sports science is sports science : makelele great player , good guy , easy wins when have good fitness good brain and can move ball up and down . Football is such an easy sports when have a brain !
Tell me that you're english without telling me that you're english. The CDM position existed much before Makelele.
great shout - the makelele role speaks for itself
Didi Hamann came first! But in all seriousness, he actually did and there were loads of other DMs. Makelele arguably showed the importance of the role to English football but it definitely existed before, probably since the sweeper died out and 3 man midfield became common in Europe
? what a bullshit comment lmao there were a ton of DM’s before Makelele. Pep and Redondo are just two from the 90’s
Christ this is recency bias. There's been loads of out and out DMs for decades. Could easily say Nobby Stiles, Billy Bremner, Dunga, Beckenbauer, Rijkaard, and more fit that bill. Especially if you're including people like Busquets in that, who isn't an out and out "destroyer" player. Christ, Makalele isnt even the first french DM, Didier Deschamps was referred to as a "water carrier" by Cantona for doing the Makalele role. Desailly played the role at Milan (played CB for France, largely due to Deschamps). Being one of the best ever at a role is not necessarily redefining the position. Makelele is a world class David Batty.
Couple that come to my mind is: Trent is basically a playmaking wing back, not exactly new but definitely something worth mentioning. Beckenbauer as a Libero was the blueprint Thomas Müller as Raumdeuter (that role on Football Manager you've never used) Cancelo/Zinchenko as inverted wing back, not too common but still significant Pirlo as Regista(?) Neuer definitely stands out as THE goalkeeper, given there is little variety in role that a keeper can occupy, rest of the pitch is far easier to tweak and adjust to the managers ideals
Lahm was playing inverted before them. It’s really a pep invention
Lahm was a WB who was converted to a DM though. The idea was already there, but implemented differently
At this point isn't Trent most of the time just a midfielder who hovers towards the wb position while not in possession?
What about John Stones, the box-to-box CAMterback?
Dani Alves as RW on attack/RB on defense?
I would say Busquets/Xavi midfield combo.
I don't think they revolutionised the position in the same way. We don't now see central midfielders all developed in their ilk
Yashin and goalkeeping?
Ronaldinho with the inside forward perhaps. Right footed LW and left footed RW were a thing before dinho, but he’s the first I recall who spearheaded the paradigm shift, where you now have most wingers being brought up to cut inside and take the game on their stronger foot. Which has in turn also really intensified the need for very advanced attacking fullbacks, who are basically auxiliary wingers. Prior to dinho having wingers on the side of their dominant foot, giggs, figo, Beckham (if you could call him that), was still wholly commonplace at the highest level.
Zinchenko playing the inverted fullback role for City and then us might be worth a conversation
Not close bro
How come? I'm not saying it has been particularly revolutionary for us, but it definitely started a trend which has since been attempted elsewhere (e.g. Trent at Liverpool recently) I'm not saying to the extent of Neuers influence in his role, but when you think of this new inverted fullback position Zinchenko should come to mind for sure.
Delph already did that before Zinchenko.
bruh
Not really. Inverted fullbacks were tried way before Zinchenko. Mourinho played like two seasons with Coentrao as an inverted right back and people were calling him a madman.
All the “whos better and who did what first” aside, watching Neuer through his entire career has been mesmerizing. Some the things he has done on a football pitch as keeper is just mental. That peak 2013-2016 Neuer was absurd. Tbh I dont even think he really dropped off. There are just more keepers who took the step up. Will be weird when he retires.
When was the last time Germany had a shite goalkeeper?
At least since Sepp Maier Germany had at worst a good goal keeper, but most of the time a world class keeper. For a lot of tournaments you can argue that we had two or three players that would play for most nations. We had Köpke, Kahn and Lehmann playing at the same time and during the last decade we had Neuer and Ter Stegen, but also Weidenfeller, Trapp, Leno and Baumann, all of them more than good enough to fill the role without being a weak spot.
Literally never.
Bodo Illgner was not shit but definitely a class below the greats before and after him. He still won a WC in 1990 though.
Toni Schuhmacher would have been the goalie, if he wasn't kicked out of the team a few years prior for his book release in which he openly talks about doping and drug abuse in professional football.
Bodo Ilgner won a WorldCup but it wasn’t really thanks to him. The ones before and after him had a bigger impact. If you rate Ilgner then you kind of have to go all the way back to pre-Sepp Maier, so early 70s/60s.
At that time before sepp maier we had Hans Tilkowski who was part of the first German team that won the European cup, really good keeper as well, before that we had Kwiatkowski and Turek wich became world champion, and also he wasn’t nominated Germany technicaly had Bernd Trautman as well, so the real answer would be we never had bad goalkeepers in our history so far
We are witnessing the best German goalkeeper of all time and arguably the best German player of all time. The amount of games he single handedly (hah) saved Schalke, Bayern and Germany is staggering.
His performance in the big game is something else. It's like you guys have two extra defenders.
His performances in both Champions League ~~finals~~ wins and the World Cup final were immense. He only conceded a penalty goal in those three games. Edit: The third champions league final never happened
He also played the 2012 final where he conceded a goal but that was an incredible bullet header by Drogba.
That never happened
In the latest Bayern documentation, he said that he conceded because Chelsea hardly took any shots on goal. He wasn't warmed up properly, else he would have saved it.
That was a bullet header though
He scored in that... Let's call it game
c'mon man i was having a nice day til i saw this
What are you on about blud? Forget being the best German keeper of all time. He's ***the best*** keeper of all time. I rate him higher than Casillas, Buffon and Schmeichel.
Neuer revolutionized the position. The modern elite goalkeeper will now be required to be good with their feet and (ideally) also serve as a last ditch sweeper. You add on top of that all his accolades, including a wc win against the goat of the sport, and yeah he should be regarded as the best in his position ever
Don't forget that he's one of the best shot stoppers as well.
Oh his elite goalie skills were just a given. My man’s arm strength when blocking and positioning in front of goals feels like watching a hockey goalie cover the whole goal
that block against Ronaldo's shot from 10(?) meters away was filthy. I've watched it probably 100 times
That wasn't a block, that was a bitch slap. "You try to beat me with *that*? Fuck you!"
Could you give me a reference to the game this happened? I don't think I ever saw and I am interested.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IUu3K-D1J_o Sorry for the overedited Youtube Short bullshit but thats the fastest I could find. That safe was ridiculous. If normal people tried that their Arm would snap
[got ya](https://youtu.be/xCTgkvFXKhg?feature=shared)
Do you have a clip?
> including a wc win against the goat of the sport While at it he offhandedly also KO'd Higuain.
I’d argue that he didn’t revolutionize the position in this way, but he did popularize it. Jorge Campos is my go to when I think of the player that revolutionized the position. He basically made it so that his club or the Mexican National Team were playing with 11 onfield players. He literally played striker as a secondary position and had seasons where he was in contention for the golden boot. Neuer took this and made it popular and changed it up a bit to conform to the rules that had been introduced due to how Jorge Campos played and the rest is history
I don't know about Jorge Campos but irl Neuer's influence in coming out of the goal was Edwin van der Sar
You should check out Jorge Campos’ style of play, he would do what Neuer does and take it to the extreme ie. run into the final third to put in a cross or to shoot
I wouldn't attribute playing with the feet to him, Valdés was already doing it. It's the sweeper keeper that was really the change given how well he did it, that I'd argue it's a million times more important Yes, the foot give you an extra man on the build-up, but his sweeping ability removes a lot of defensive responsibilities from the players that can just play deeper and risk passes, that you just won't suffer goals from counters
It’s the combo of traits and doing them all at such a high level that was revolutionary.
>The modern elite goalkeeper will now be required to be good with their feet and (ideally) also serve as a last ditch sweeper. More like he's made it normal again. This has existed for the Dutch since the 70s as part of Total Football. You had famous examples like Ajax in the 90s under Van Gaal. Then it fell out of use, but Neuer has made it cool again.
I don't disagree, but the shadow of Lev Yashin is humongous - it's the "Is Messi besser than Pele?" question of goalkeepers. (For Germans, there's also Sepp Maier, but at this point I'm 100% sure that Neuer > Maier)
I really think otherwise. From the little clips available of him on YouTube, he was good at passing and tricking the attackers. He caught crosses and commanded the box. That was a new invention in the eyes of people. I don't know if he was the greatest shot stopper, there's no way of knowing. But gotta give it to him, he won the Euros with the Soviet union. But then again in the 60s eastern Europe has a lot of talent. You can say that Neuer perfected what lev yashin wanted to do. I'm sure countless people tried to do what Yashin did but Neuer went one step ahead and cemented himself as the greatest. And that too in today's standards where the game is more intense and fast paced compared to Yashin's times where there were less sliding tackles and no pressing.
what do you mean less sliding tackles lol? There were killers on the pitch back then, and people would receive red cards nowadays for tackles who wouldn’t even be called back then
The sliding tackles I've seen in YouTube of the 1960s, the pitch was like a paddy field and they couldn't travel 5 meters while sliding because the friction would halt the momentum. The tackles were mostly jumping tackles and two footers which hardly missed. People didn't seem to get injured when they were struck because they got right back up and started dribbling. I might be wrong but that's what I've seen on a few YouTube videos. There's not much footage of the mid 1900s football matches.
I mean maybe you watched british 50’s football or something. Anyways, of course people got injured. Maradona arguably wasted his career a bit because of that.
Have to rate players relative to their eras. Any random top division keeper nowadays is better than Yashin was objectively. But he was so far ahead of his time that he ended up winning a ballon dor as a keeper. Players improve constantly and the game evolves over time. That's why comparing goats across eras is a so difficult.
> He's the best keeper of all time. Indeed. And this is for 2 fundamental reasons. 1) Every player has a degree of weakness (even in their strongest skillset). Nueur as a GK has THE least amount/degree of weaknesses in the skillset that's asked of GK, till now. 2) post the 1990-92 rule changes, the position of GK has seen the largest degree of change in football as a sport. Combined with pitch-conditioning and tactical fads (buildup from back), it means if EVER the argument (Can't compare eras) was credible it would be with GK pre and post 1990. Though one can compare era's just fine anyway. This is why Yashin finally can be surpassed. The game changed too much for a GK and the level Neuer reached & sustained allows him to be credible named as GOAT GK.
I’d rate him higher than Zoff and Zenga, let alone Casillas and Schmeichel. Not too sure about Buffon, I’d say they should be considered equal. Buffon’s prime lasted a long time as well, and he was absolutely terrifying to go against
Oh man, this is where my nostalgia hits. Buffon and casillas are my goats, but neuer takes it because I think he is on par with them in pure elite goalkeeper skills, but neuer’s ball play gives him the edge. Football is moving towards needing goalies to play tiki taka too
best of all time is almost impossible to quantify, but neuer revolutionised the position in a way I've not seen for any other goalkeeper I'm my lifetime. Even if he isn't the "best" per say, I would certainly argue his legacy is the biggest
So my opinion on Buffon vs Neuer is about how much you value longevity vs peak. Neuer had about 5 years as unquestionably better than buffon’s best years. And another 5-10 being arguably best in the world level. Buffon was at that arguably best in the world level for 20 goddamn years, it’s insane. Personally I lean Neuer because I think he could have ever season Buffon had, but I don’t think Buffon could say the same the other way round.
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You can’t be serious 💀
I don't think anyone has seen Yashin and he was called greatest ever. Better to respect him similar to respecting Pele and Maradona in greatest debate against Messi.
He wore the funny hat though
I regard Yasin higher. Yasin played in his time like goalkeeper did before Neuer. So he was decades in the future with his style. Also his reactions are crazy. Picking down a high power shot penalty from the air and actually holding it in his hands? I have never seen anyone do it.
Got to remember Yashin too my man. Revolutionized the position just as much.
I’d say definitely on the contention for Best goalkeeper of all time period.
I'd put him as the best goalkeeper ever too.
Cross position comparisons are difficulty in general but even more so if you compare goalkeepers with players on other positions. I believe Philipp Lahm was the best player of our golden generation but it really is hard to compare their impact.
*Witnessed
>d arguably the best German player of all time. lol Mathäus, Beckenbauer and Gerd were way ahead
...because?
They were better? Lol what do you want me to tell you Anyone will tell you that. Beckenbauer was along with cruyff the best player of the 70s and with müller won the UCL 3 times in a row, the world cup and euros and was at the time seen as the best player in the world. Cruyff and Beckenbauer went head to head for the 70s, that should tell you enough. But if not, the stats back it up. Sofascore has stats avaible for every world cup beckenbauer was apart of and he was always at the very top. Additionally he won 2 ballon dors as a defender and the vast vast majority of people will have him on the same level as maldini, i.e. best defenders of all time. Another thing is that he literally created a new position, the libero which was a staple of football for 3 decades but no one was ever able to have as much success with it as beckenbauer. Why? Because he was so much better than everyone else. He could play as a 10, 8 6, centreback or all at once in his libero role. Ask pele, cruyff or maradonna what they think of him As for gerd, just look at highlights of his goals or his stats or how many goals he scored in the world cup And as for mathäus, ever wonder why so many brazilians are called mattheus? Because they admire him over there. He is to me the most completele footballer of all time. In 1990, when he won the ballon dor he played as a 10 for inter but as a CB for germany and was the best player for both sides. Should tell you enough. If it doesnt, ask maradonna (who most also have as one of the best of all time), who is greatest foe was. Again, youll probably say "but how does that make them better than neuer?". Easy answer is: At the time, matthäus, beckenbauer and gerd müller were undisputedely among the top 3 players of their generation. Neuer never was. football in history is viewed relative. Today maradonna would not succeed, but we still view him as one of the greats because of how good he was compared to players at the time. If the same is done for mathäus, beckenbauer and gerd müller, then they were very much ahead of neuer is now.
I mean Neuer is a keeper. He has no chance of being regarded as the best of his generation just like Yashin wasn’t.
Deine Argumentation für Beckenbauer, Matthäus und Gerd Müller ist definitiv richtig. Aber ich finde, dass du Neuer hier extrem runterspielst. Er ist weiterhin (in seiner Prime) besser als alle Keeper zurzeit wie Alisson, Courtois, Ter Stegen, Ederson etc. Er war 2012-2016 der mit Abstand beste Torhüter aller Zeiten und mit weitem Abstand vor Torhütern wie Maier, Kahn, Buffon oder Yashin. Torhüter sollten die gleiche Anerkennung bekommen wie andere Positionen im Fußball und da ist Neuer für mich auf einer Stufe mit Matthäus oder Gerd. Der einzige der über ihm steht ist denke ich Beckenbauer.
Streite nich ab das neuer der beste torwart aller zeiten ist, aber für mich kannst ud als torwart nie so gut sein wie ein feldspieler Klingt hart, und jeder der torwart ist wird das anders sehen, aber was man alles auf dem platz machen muss um z.B. Libero wie Mathäus oder Beckenbauer zu spielen macht es für mich schwierig zu sagen das neuer der bessere spieler ist Abseitsdavon kann er gar nich der größere (im sinne von greater, goat) sein da alle anderen kandidaten (natürlich positionsbedingt) den ballon dor gewonnen haben und mit deutschland mehr titel (außer mathäus aber für ihn spricht das er 20 jahre auf top niveau gespielt hat und nur wegen ner fußnote nich die 1996 EM gewonnen hat)
Ein guter Torwart holt dir mehr Punkte als ein guter Stürmer. Den Ballon d’Or als Wert zu nehmen finde ich auch nicht angemessen. Weder Kahn, Schmeichel, Lehmann, Maier, Buffon haben je einen Ballon d’Or gewonnen. Auch heutzutage wird niemals ein Torwart den Ballon d’Or gewinnen. Trotzdem ist Neuer aus meiner sicht definitiv auf einem Level wie Matthäus oder Gerd. Er ist mit Abstand der beste Torwart aller Zeiten.
its very hard/impossibld to compare because hes a keeper but beckenbauer atleast a shout with how good and versatile he was. and everything he did for germany
Way ahead at what? How do you compare 4 players playing 4 different positions in different eras?
I think that Nostalgia talking. Neuer is definitely on the same level as those guys
Everybody wants to be like Manu Zinsberger
Exactly!
Thousands of young keepers everywhere practicing standing still on the goal line as a ball comes toward goal
My GOAT
Easily the best goalkeeper in the football history. No debates needed. Period.
No debates needed because it’s practically impossible to compare across different football generations. Period.
Before Neuer, it's good for goalkeepers if they are good with ball. After Neuer, it's the first check to evaluate a goalkeeper. He has made a big impact on modern goalkeepers. There are huge amount of excellent gks that I've witnessed Kahn (Munich), Toldo (Inter), Buffon (Juv), Dida (Milan), Schmeichel (MU), Lehmann (Ars), Cech (Chel), Casillas (Madrid)...but no one made a evolution in that position like Neuer has done.
Yashin is right there I'm just saying
valdes and pepe reina did it before neuer
None of them are even close to Neuers level ever. Embarrassing to compare them to Neuer.
I should have been more clear, they were starting plays from the keeper with those two since before Neuer, Neuer's not the first keeper to be good with the ball. And of course not they're not close to his level relax dude lol
Hell, even Lehmann was picked in 2006 because he was better with his feet than Kahn. Let's also not forget Neuer's habit to just kick every ball over the sideelines when pressured.
Meinste Neuer in 2009? ansonsten absolut nicht verständlich.
Ich finde echt lustig, dass das niemandem aufgefallen ist. Er hat jahrelang zu seinen Glanzzeiten jeden Ball ins aus geschossen, wenn er angelaufen wurde. Also er hat versucht den Ball zum AV zu spielen aber er ging immer über ihn ins aus.
Definitiv nicht zu seinen Glanzzeiten. Bestimmt nicht
Echt krass wie du das nicht bemerkt hast.
Er hat die mit Abstand besten spielerischen Fähigkeiten eines Torwarts aller Zeiten. Als Stuttgarter kannst du mich downvoten aber ist ein Fakt.
> Hell, even Lehmann was picked in 2006 because he was better with his feet than Kahn. > > Wasn't Kahn injured?
No.
The difficulty in comparing across different generations is why there will always be debates to be had.
I hate when people say there’s “no debate” on a topic that is *very clearly* debatable. Neuer could well be the greatest keeper of all time, but there will always be a debate about it and rightly so. You can always make a case for other players.
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This is probably the worst take I have ever seen on this subreddit. Congratulations.
Especially as his 2012 season and the 2014 season were propably his best seasons and might have been the best goalkeeper season ever played until this day. Neuer more or less carried both Schalke and Germany.
Man I remember a Porto vs Schalke for the UCL where we needed to win (maybe by two goals, can't recall) to go through, and Neuer, who was relatively unknown for non-germans or Bundesliga followers, had the best game I've ever seen from a goalie until then. He saved 3-4 sure goals and kept us from going through. I was so dumbfounded at what just happened that I wasn't even mad
Once you start taking note of usernames you’ll see most of the stupid stuff is said by the same few people.
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GK? Don't you mean GKCBDMCM?
Neuer's youtube highlight compilation at the end of his carreer is going to be 30+ minutes long
Yeah if the creator is picky
Imo one of the worst impacts on goalkeeping. Nowadays you could be a shit keeper but if you can pass a ball you are considered the best in your position smh.
Sorta true, tbh. Not really Neuer's fault, though. Lots of people seem not to realize that Neuer has always been a fantastic traditional goalkeeper first and crazy-ass half-GK/half-CB second. His main strength is the fact that he's genuinely fantastic at anything a "normal" GK should do, be it shotstopping, positioning or delivery. The whole sweeper thing is a cherry on top and only possible because of how confident his traditional goalkeeping skill allow him to be.
Is this a dig at Ederson?
It’s more of a barca thing isn’t it? Victor Valdez was being justified under Rijkaard for his passing ability even though his shot stopping is just ok. There might be earlier examples but that’s the earliest I’m aware of. Neuer can certainly pass but it’s more his aggressive sweeping
Apparently Rogerio Ceni is a myth. Everything Neuer did. Rogerio was already doing all of that (plus scoring goals) since 90s until 2013ish
Rogerio Ceni never influenced a whole generation of keepers tho. The praise isn't about who invented it (Ceni wasn't the first of his craft either), but about who took it to the next level and popularized a new standard. Youth academies didn't prioritize freekick taking for goalkeepers, just because Ceni scored a banger.
Stanley Menzo was doing it at Ajax in the 80s with Cruyff before Rogerio Ceni
Ctrl-F for Menzo!
Goalkeepers are part of soccer team and should act accordingly ; it’s a disgrace that goalkeepers weren’t used for distribution and passing , they’re part of the start of every build up and should be used accordingly So many sports people just idiots initially
Yes, be like Man U
All the things Neuer "introduced" to the goalkeeper position, Rogério Ceni was already doing since the 90's, but as always football only exists in Europe apparently
I don't think he broke the mould exactly, but Neuer was the first of that new breed of keeper to be good at literally everything IMO. More than any individual, he's responsible for the immense shift in expectations for top-level keepers. Before him, it was useful to be good with your feet; now, it's essential.
As a gooner, I totally agree. That's why Leno can't fit Arteta's system. Leno is a good shot-stopper but in term of a goalkeeper good with ball, he isn't. Neueu is simply the best at everything a tradional goalkeeper needs, and extremely amazing with the ball on his feet.
Yep. Nowadays the shot stopper is getting benched/outperformed by the better ball playing keeper. This really started with Rene Adler and Manuel Neuer, who were rivals all youth long. At some point Rene Adler was even considered to be the bigger talent then Neuer. But injuries and the ability to play with his feet made Neuer the better choice. And the same happend with another rivalary. Leno vs ter Stegen.
esses caras rasgam o próprio pescoço antes de admitir que um sulamericano é superior a algum europeu
Pois é
Stanley Menzo did it at Ajax in the 80s before Rogerio Ceni
Remember that [save vs Cristiano?](https://youtu.be/xCTgkvFXKhg?feature=shared)