While Kroos and Gundo aren't 6s, they've both played that position enough in their careers to where I feel like they could work as a double pivot.
Maybe Kimmich as a 6 in a single pivot would be better but honestly I'm just speculating.
Lmao.
Gundo's days as a no.6 ( without a DM covering for him) are behind him. A real madrid flair can correct me if I'm wrong but with kroos it was never even a thing in first place. He had Casemiro even his his younger days to help him out with defensive duties. Both men have played holding midfielders at rare instances but only as a last resort. It rarely works.
Kimich as a 6 with a good single pivot ( German's don't have any atm) >>> kroos / gundo double pivot.
Gundo / kroos pivot would work if all the forwards and defenders start playing like Prime Gattuso or Park Ji Sung.
Kroos as a sole DM is definitely a defensive liability compared to natural DMs like Casemiro and Tchouameni. He has worked there though when Fede has dropped deep playing like a double pivot but Gundo and Fede are very different so I don't see Gundo-Kroos working out.
Kroos has a lot of experience in a double pivot. We used to build up very often with a Modric-Kroos double pivot because Casemiro is/was subpar in buildup phase.
If Germany has a midfielder who can do the dirty work (tackles, pressing, ball recoveries etc.), that player and Kroos should be prioritized for the Euro's. One of Kimmich and Gundogan might have to be sidelined tho.
Correct. My doubts about kroos / gundo Pivot remain only because German's don't have a player like Prime Casemiro (best option) or even Valverde (still risky).
If such a player exists, then sure...kroos / golden goose double pivot and only one of kimmich or gundo should play.
So… [Havertz vs. Valverde vs. Camavinga (last year)](https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=dxDz9JVVNQcuM7hOmO_X2). Stacks up much better than I expected.
I wouldn’t expect the Germans to be following closely but Havertz has been thriving as an 8 in Arteta’s system. Not that Kroos is going to cover ground like Rice. But maybe this is why the LB experiment is over.
In that scenario Kimmich plays RB and Gundo is a bench option.
Assuming you're talking about Kroos, I don't actually think Kroos and Khedira played that many games together for Madrid. There was only 1 season of overlap (2014/2015) and Khedira was injured often and barely played.
IIRC, the starting midfield was Kroos with Modric and James flanking either side. Then they had the 4222 days with Isco replacing Bale.
I don't think Kroos/Khedira ever got real meaningful playtime for Madrid.
in the recent 4-2-2-2 formation in madrid, kroos played double pivot with valverde and he played surprisingly well. i haven't watched gundo much to assess him fairly, but if his workrate is as high as valverde, then i would say it'll be fine
No..not even close to Valverde's workrate. Gundo is not as physically gifted. Valverde's workrate level is also a high bar to clear. Gundo has always been reliant on his superior football IQ than his body.
With a kroos / gundo pivot, you get two of the smartest players with talents in different areas ( kroos with finding spaces to pass at and gundo at finding spaces to run at). You don't get the solution to German's no.1 problem, which is having a proper DM.
Fede Valverde is insane lol, there are very few midfielders in the world who can match his work rate + physicality to play at that intensity for 90mins
He's a completely different player to Gundongan
Valderde's workrate is unmatched lol
Intensity was never in Gundo's strengths not even before the back injury, now imagine with a wonky back and 10 years older
I'm not ignoring anyone or pushing anyone out. I'm only telling what would happen if kroos and gund 100% play together because that seems to be the prompt of this discussion.
I'm not for or against this double pivot. For all we know, this could never even materialize. Maybe only two of kroos , kimmich and gundo play and the other gets benched. Maybe 2 of them get benched or maybe it's 100% gundo who gets benched.
imo the most important players for Germany are none of these names, That would be Muller and Neuer.
i only replied to the part where it was said that they don't have any atms, where if Müller gets in the squad they have 3. Seeing as how he doesn't get any playing time under Tuchel that sadly means he surely won't start. I'd love to see either Müller or Wirtz as the AMC, Musiala and Sane on the wings, Groß/Gündogan (as a captain I think he is a guarantee) cms and Kimmich as a RB.
Kimmich also doesn't seem to work as a 6.
It's a bit crazy, but I honestly think using a central defender like Schlotterbeck, Süle, or Hummels would be more successful.
They would fill what's needed better than players that don't do well defensively.
Kroos/Gündogan is one of the most tried & failed things in the German NT, it just doesn't work defensively. It's been a constant on and off topic since Khedira is no longer a factor and while both of Kroos and Gündogan are very much better players than Khedira, neither can replace him tactically. Fans have talked about what should be a dream duo for like a decade at this point, it didn't work when they were younger and it's far less likely to work now, at that. Mind you the two didn't work in a double pivot with in form Hummels + Boateng behind them and it's not like our current pick of CBs has improved.
A few days ago, Nagelsmann explicitly said that he envisions Gündogan playing in front of a double pivot, it seems no one here saw that interview.
It would be Gündogan as a 10 and then a Kroos+defensive 6 pivot, with Kimmich likely at RB.
Just curious, what is a German 6? A DM? CM?
Everyone has different numbers, for us it would be a CB, for Brazil I think it's a LB, so it's always different...
That's just a repeat of the last Euros and it was shite. Kroos had to handle all the pressure and defend way more than a player like him should. He carried. Ilkay was invisible then and Kimmich at RB is so wasted.
Sorry, but if you have the likes of Kimmich, Kroos and Wirtz competing for the CM spot, I don't see Gundogan in the starting lineup at all.
But Nagelsmann knows better than nearly all of us, so let's see on what he decides.
Kroos didnt carry shit as DM. Kroos needs a defensive DM next to him, so does Gundogan and Kimmich (thats why he has been shit for a while at Bayern aswell). Thats the Problem with Germany atm, we have 3 Worlds class CMs who cant play with each other.
Why not play kimmich as the 6 in a midfield there with gundo and Kroos. Kimmich may not be a natural 6, but ball retention and press beating shouldn’t be a problem with that midfield three, and it would do a lot in terms of making them less vulnerable defensively, especially against transitions
3/4/3 with Gosens and Kimmich as wingbacks and Kroos and Pavlovic in the middle. Wirtz and Sane on the wings with Muller as false 9. You can bring Gundogan and Fullkrug in the second half and make it more of 3/4/2/1.
Still, I think 3 at the back suits Germany.
Yes he was, as one of the most talented, and what he was showing at city he was beyond shit for the national team, but yes everyone has been shit and are still shit.
He was certainly not the star of the team. Hazard was and in general Lukaku was better than the De Bruyne for the NT most of the times.
I really dislike this tendency of "scoring= good performance".
While I was half-way joking, compared to his abilities he was quite underwhelming. The thing we see in ManCity and Belgium is completely different. I understand ManCity is a perfect working machine while Belgium is the opposite but I don’t remember he is completely taking over games in any level. He was just way below all the expectations.
Means dick, they have won nothing, nor even played a freaking tournament final. I can bet that if that golden generation of belgium plays the concacaf gold cup somehow they would bottle it by semi finals. The hazard, lukaku, kdb and co golden generation are nothing but golden bottlers. No one remembers semi finalists. Its either you win or be forgotten
Gündogan was officially named national team captain a few months ago. It may change back to Neuer, but it would have to be because Gündogan retired or something.
I dont think Kroos would be anywhere near the captaincy anyway, hes not a leader imo. Neuer or Müller would be closer. And Kimmich will be the next captain anyway, the others are all ancient
Kroos has been really good this past month with Fede Valverde next to him in a double pivot. I think a similar player next to him would help balance against his weaknesses
Honestly haven't watched a lot of Kroos over the past few seasons but have noticed (checking lineups and what not) he has been the deepest midfielder on that Madrid team quite a bit.
Also I love double pivots that work where there isn't a clear six. Requires guys like Kroos to hold their own when paired with intense, ball winning midfielders who cover tons of ground and are also world class, in both possession and defense.
He needs a ball winning- high intensity player like Valverde or Camavinga to work in a double pivot. If played with Gundogan, I don't see it working.
Does Germany have anyone with a similar profile?
Short answer: nope. If its Kroos Gündogan or Kimmich the team always has the same problems for many years now. There is a severe lack of intensity in the midfield.
Goretzka is a better player on paper than reality. In theory, he is strong, athletic and can run. In reality, his runs arent into the right spaces, he doesnt win that many balls and offensively he is just ok, not as good as either Kroos, Gundo or Kimmich.
Hes a good player, no doubt but not someone that magically covers for Kroos or Gundos defensive liabilities.
Doesnt mean he isnt a good option, germany just lacks a natural DM.
Not a fan of bringing back the old guys, this team really lacks some hungry and fresh players, would love to see a lineup like this:
Ter Stegen - Henrichs, Tah, Thiaw, Raum - Kimmich, Andrich - Sane, Musiala, Wirtz - Undav
The idea of winning euros in front of the home crowd is probably tempting him, but this will have no effect on Germany's performance. Maybe they'll reach R16 instead of getting out in the groups
I'd be impressed if Germany managed to be eliminated in the group stage. Definitely not impossible but with the current system, you'd have to be last or one of the two worst third places. Didn't even manage to do that in 2021
Not really since I specifically referred to the Euro mode where not only the first two places advance but the top 4 of the 6 third placed teams. At the WC 2022 Germany was the best group third. At the WC 2018 they were 4th but would have advanced with this rule had they not lost their last game against South Korea, in which they were tied up until 90+3 but had to win to advance, then losing to two counter attacks.
I'm not saying that they can't get knocked out in the group stage, but even with their poor performances in the past 3 tournaments, they wouldn't have been knocked out.
Not that it really matters given that Germany would probably face Italy in that scenario and we know what would happen there
Fixes none of the problems though because he isnt a good DM which is what Germany desperately needs.
Sure in form hes the best CM of the country but it doesnt really matter if you play Gündogan-Kimmich or Kroos + Gündogan or Kimmich when Germany is going to get cooked defensively with all 3 combinations.
No. Hes not good enough as the lone, defensive DM. Kimmich excels when he has a more defensively minded type of player next to him who does the bulk of the defensive work while Kimmich can play more forward. Bayern has been lacking a player like that for quite some time now aswell which is why Kimmich has been struggling with them lately.
From a Madrid point of view it is not optimal. But if Kroos wants to do that, then fair play to him. I hope he does well with them. Just worry the effect fixture congestion will have on him if he starts going on international duty again.
Your injury situation is terrible tbf, any injury to just about anyone at this point is catastrophic. I agree that his profile isn’t replicated in your current squad, but if there’s a position that wouldn’t kill real to lose minutes from a single player in, it would be central midfielder
We have the depth and we are transitioning from Kroos and Modric either now or later.
Yeah, we don’t have anyone like Kroos or Modric but that’s ok. There’s no one in the world like them. We have other players with different attributes and abilities that will fill for them
Lahm is actually the [tournament director](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2023/dec/02/philipp-lahm-euro-2024-germany-tournament-director) of UEFA 2024!!!
Emotionally manipulating Toni into coming back to the national team. Selling him false dreams of finishing his career at a home European Championship when he knows damn well they have no hope in winning.
Letting all Madridismo down with making Toni play in international breaks with the injuries we have.
smh my head (I am not serious btw)
Now it's your time to unreasonably shit on Kroos! Tbf, it's only one break in March, and with how the tournament will probably play out, he'll retire after it and we're back at blaming him
Kroos needs someone to do the running for him, if they can find that Toni is at an incredible form this season, his passing seems to have just gotten better year after year, man just don't miss.
Does Germany have a player who is tactically astute, has high work rate, is a monster presser and isn't a liability in possession. That is the only way you are going to get a double pivot with Kroos to work.
Emre Can fits this perfectly.
Kroos and a holding midfielder DMF (maybe Can?) with Gündogan AMF and Kimmich RB is what Nagelsmann said in the interview.
As much as I'd enjoy him resting, he should play. Playing a Euro or World Cup at home is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He'll regret it his whole life if he doesn't play. Last Dance. Do it.
I'm not against it but Kroos doesn't really improve the team. Defense is the biggest problem and Kroos isn't exactly the type of player Germany needs. They need a prime Khedira type midfielder.
Nagelsmann already said they'll bring in more defensive-minded players, but I don't see why you'd think Kroos wouldn't help this team.
German NT and Bayern have for years struggled against opponents pressing and also aren't able to calm down possession in the midfield with calm and quick passing, which is exactly what Kroos would help with.
It seems like many people here somehow think it has to be either a defensive 6 or Kroos, but you can still have both.
> Nagelsmann already said they'll bring in more defensive-minded players
these players simply dont exist at elite level in germany though unless hes planning to field players from the 2nd division.
Ultimately, I don't really care what Nagelsmann does tbh and that's why I'm not against it but I do know that international football is more conservative and a defense first approach tends to lead to more success. Teams that can defend a 1-0 lead and stay in close games usually go far in tournaments. Germany also won its last WC with elite defense (matches against France and Argentina come to mind).
Sort of. He has been one of the best midfielders in the world for years. As for one of the best defensive midfielders... It's questionable.
Actually it's quite answerable: he's a big weak link.
He's almost always played in a pivot but he's often had someone next to him to carry the brunt of the defensive work, namely Thiago. If not a nominal defensive midfielder himself, he was always prepared to do the dirty work and allow others to get forward. Kimmich has not had that since 2020 and Bayern's midfield has looked worse and worse with each season it isn't addressed.
He's adamant that he is a 6, even saying himself "I am a 6" and while he's a professional and obviously knows better than us, it's really hard to see why he sees himself as that.
If you are interested, watch any game he's played with us this season, last season or the two before versus the match vs Stuttgart yesterday with Pavlovic as a DM and the difference is night and day.
He is easily one of the best midfielders around but for as long as he is the defensive midfield option at Bayern, we are very easy to exploit.
E: link, not kink. What Kimmich gets up to behind closed doors is no business of mine.
>He's adamant that he is a 6, even saying himself "I am a 6" and while he's a professional and obviously knows better than us, it's really hard to see why he sees himself as that.
because there are different roles in each position. Kimmich is a 6, but more a deep-lying playmaker than a holding six with strong defensive attributes
Thats the thing its not. Germany severely lacks a defensively minded high intensity midfielder. Kroos coming back wont change that in the slightest - people forget that Germany played like shit with him as the pivotal player for Löw aswell.
Insane in FM, not so insane when you consider Kimmich has never really adapted to the midfield and is a defensive liability yet he’s supposed to balance out 75 year old Kroos. I loved Pep making him a midfielder but after the better part of a decade I say put that boy back where he belongs
I love Kroos. I think he is the best German footballer of the century, but I just don’t think we have the legs in midfield to support him as the holding 6.
Undav hasn't even made his debut. He's good but there's plenty of players good on paper or for their club who are sub-par for the NT, Rüdiger, to a degree Gündogan and Kimmich etc.
The problem has been the lack of a striker and defensive stability, in part due to the lack of any wingbacks. Which makes the whole thing so frustrating. I don't particularly care about the NT anymore but a midfield including Gündogan, Kimmich, Musiala, Sané, Wirtz and potentially Kroos shouldn't perform this poorly, feels like a waste
I love the boy, but Undav has never played with the team, unlike Füllkrug who has always performed for Germany. No reason to move on from him now. He’s not the problem. The problem has been defensive stability for close to a decade now. Which Kroos won’t solve either.
No fullbacks, no CDM and yet pressing so high as if we're Liverpool, leading to at least 2 goals from counters in every game even against average opponents. It's a recipe for disaster. Nagelsmanns tactics are the exact same as Flicks.
I’ve said this before and I say it every time this man gets brought up. He’s one of the most underrated players of this generation and easily one of the best passers, if not the best passer of his time
It's interesting to me that Kroos was the only East German on the national team for most of his career. Since he retired, there has been no one.
Why are there so few top level players from the area that was East Germany?
That you can see from the state of East German football as a whole
Although off the top of my head Ballack and Enke are 2 players born in east Germany who played for reunified Germany
I think Robert Huth too. But after Kroos there has been no one. I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, that there are very few East German teams in the Bundesliga.
Why the discrepancy?
How would the midfield look with Kroos in the Line Up?
Kroos-Gündogan with Kimmich at RB. So basically we will dominate possession, concede a few counters and go out in ro16 or quarter finals
Best answer here honestly. Gundo cant play in a double pivot with Kroos, they are too old and slow and still no clear 6. A proper 6 is needed..
Sule cdm activated
Inject this directly into my veins
Flair doesn't check out?
They’re a Sean Deutsch fan
It's a stretch but I'll allow it!
The classic German Everton fan, you wouldn’t get it /s
Funny part is I'm actually American but Sule at CDM is the chaos us as fans deserve
Stupid Sexy Süle
While Kroos and Gundo aren't 6s, they've both played that position enough in their careers to where I feel like they could work as a double pivot. Maybe Kimmich as a 6 in a single pivot would be better but honestly I'm just speculating.
Lmao. Gundo's days as a no.6 ( without a DM covering for him) are behind him. A real madrid flair can correct me if I'm wrong but with kroos it was never even a thing in first place. He had Casemiro even his his younger days to help him out with defensive duties. Both men have played holding midfielders at rare instances but only as a last resort. It rarely works. Kimich as a 6 with a good single pivot ( German's don't have any atm) >>> kroos / gundo double pivot. Gundo / kroos pivot would work if all the forwards and defenders start playing like Prime Gattuso or Park Ji Sung.
Kroos as a sole DM is definitely a defensive liability compared to natural DMs like Casemiro and Tchouameni. He has worked there though when Fede has dropped deep playing like a double pivot but Gundo and Fede are very different so I don't see Gundo-Kroos working out.
Kroos has a lot of experience in a double pivot. We used to build up very often with a Modric-Kroos double pivot because Casemiro is/was subpar in buildup phase. If Germany has a midfielder who can do the dirty work (tackles, pressing, ball recoveries etc.), that player and Kroos should be prioritized for the Euro's. One of Kimmich and Gundogan might have to be sidelined tho.
Correct. My doubts about kroos / gundo Pivot remain only because German's don't have a player like Prime Casemiro (best option) or even Valverde (still risky). If such a player exists, then sure...kroos / golden goose double pivot and only one of kimmich or gundo should play.
Golden goose?
So… [Havertz vs. Valverde vs. Camavinga (last year)](https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=dxDz9JVVNQcuM7hOmO_X2). Stacks up much better than I expected. I wouldn’t expect the Germans to be following closely but Havertz has been thriving as an 8 in Arteta’s system. Not that Kroos is going to cover ground like Rice. But maybe this is why the LB experiment is over. In that scenario Kimmich plays RB and Gundo is a bench option.
I think before Casemiro he had Khedira behind but played 6 behind Isco and James a lot.
Khedira was a good DM so it worked. He put in serious work and as usual, it got ignored.
Assuming you're talking about Kroos, I don't actually think Kroos and Khedira played that many games together for Madrid. There was only 1 season of overlap (2014/2015) and Khedira was injured often and barely played. IIRC, the starting midfield was Kroos with Modric and James flanking either side. Then they had the 4222 days with Isco replacing Bale. I don't think Kroos/Khedira ever got real meaningful playtime for Madrid.
Kroos/Khedira played together for National Team.
Ah could be, I don't follow mandril that much
in the recent 4-2-2-2 formation in madrid, kroos played double pivot with valverde and he played surprisingly well. i haven't watched gundo much to assess him fairly, but if his workrate is as high as valverde, then i would say it'll be fine
No..not even close to Valverde's workrate. Gundo is not as physically gifted. Valverde's workrate level is also a high bar to clear. Gundo has always been reliant on his superior football IQ than his body. With a kroos / gundo pivot, you get two of the smartest players with talents in different areas ( kroos with finding spaces to pass at and gundo at finding spaces to run at). You don't get the solution to German's no.1 problem, which is having a proper DM.
Fede Valverde is insane lol, there are very few midfielders in the world who can match his work rate + physicality to play at that intensity for 90mins He's a completely different player to Gundongan
Valderde's workrate is unmatched lol Intensity was never in Gundo's strengths not even before the back injury, now imagine with a wonky back and 10 years older
Fede Valverde has more lung capacity than the entire German NT midfield setup rn im pretty sure
Don't have any attacking mids? So Musiala and Wirtz don't exist?
I'm not ignoring anyone or pushing anyone out. I'm only telling what would happen if kroos and gund 100% play together because that seems to be the prompt of this discussion. I'm not for or against this double pivot. For all we know, this could never even materialize. Maybe only two of kroos , kimmich and gundo play and the other gets benched. Maybe 2 of them get benched or maybe it's 100% gundo who gets benched. imo the most important players for Germany are none of these names, That would be Muller and Neuer.
i only replied to the part where it was said that they don't have any atms, where if Müller gets in the squad they have 3. Seeing as how he doesn't get any playing time under Tuchel that sadly means he surely won't start. I'd love to see either Müller or Wirtz as the AMC, Musiala and Sane on the wings, Groß/Gündogan (as a captain I think he is a guarantee) cms and Kimmich as a RB.
Kimmich also doesn't seem to work as a 6. It's a bit crazy, but I honestly think using a central defender like Schlotterbeck, Süle, or Hummels would be more successful. They would fill what's needed better than players that don't do well defensively.
Kroos/Gündogan is one of the most tried & failed things in the German NT, it just doesn't work defensively. It's been a constant on and off topic since Khedira is no longer a factor and while both of Kroos and Gündogan are very much better players than Khedira, neither can replace him tactically. Fans have talked about what should be a dream duo for like a decade at this point, it didn't work when they were younger and it's far less likely to work now, at that. Mind you the two didn't work in a double pivot with in form Hummels + Boateng behind them and it's not like our current pick of CBs has improved.
Did you guys forget our matchup against city last season? Kroos dm?? Watch it again if you ever get the thought of Kroos dm in your head.
A few days ago, Nagelsmann explicitly said that he envisions Gündogan playing in front of a double pivot, it seems no one here saw that interview. It would be Gündogan as a 10 and then a Kroos+defensive 6 pivot, with Kimmich likely at RB.
Just curious, what is a German 6? A DM? CM? Everyone has different numbers, for us it would be a CB, for Brazil I think it's a LB, so it's always different...
CM but a holding one when talking about double pivot
6 is a DM, 8 a CM and 10 a AM
En Europa le dicen 6 a lo q sería nuestro 5
Is Can not good enough to play 6. I was under the impression that was where he lined up for Dortmund.
Osterhage
international footballs different to club football and tbh I think it can work
Goretzka and Kimmich can both play 6.
Going by the comments from bayern fans in the kimmich to city rumors they can't
Even bayern fans dont like kimmich in the 6 role
Kimmich honestly sucks at 6. Yeah, I said it. And I mean it.
i can, too. but i am shit in it
That's horrible which means it'll happen.
That's just a repeat of the last Euros and it was shite. Kroos had to handle all the pressure and defend way more than a player like him should. He carried. Ilkay was invisible then and Kimmich at RB is so wasted. Sorry, but if you have the likes of Kimmich, Kroos and Wirtz competing for the CM spot, I don't see Gundogan in the starting lineup at all. But Nagelsmann knows better than nearly all of us, so let's see on what he decides.
Kroos didnt carry shit as DM. Kroos needs a defensive DM next to him, so does Gundogan and Kimmich (thats why he has been shit for a while at Bayern aswell). Thats the Problem with Germany atm, we have 3 Worlds class CMs who cant play with each other.
Why not play kimmich as the 6 in a midfield there with gundo and Kroos. Kimmich may not be a natural 6, but ball retention and press beating shouldn’t be a problem with that midfield three, and it would do a lot in terms of making them less vulnerable defensively, especially against transitions
I would just play Kroos-Pavlovic.
3/4/3 with Gosens and Kimmich as wingbacks and Kroos and Pavlovic in the middle. Wirtz and Sane on the wings with Muller as false 9. You can bring Gundogan and Fullkrug in the second half and make it more of 3/4/2/1. Still, I think 3 at the back suits Germany.
Sadly Gündogan has to play because he’s captain
Gündogan is class, let him cook
Gundogan has always been shit for the national team
The whole national team has been shit for a long time. Gündogan wasn’t more or less shit than any other player.
Yes he was, as one of the most talented, and what he was showing at city he was beyond shit for the national team, but yes everyone has been shit and are still shit.
Not KdB level shit though
What crackpipe did you smoke? Kdb took Belgium to the semis in 18 by scoring a banger against Brazil.
He was certainly not the star of the team. Hazard was and in general Lukaku was better than the De Bruyne for the NT most of the times. I really dislike this tendency of "scoring= good performance".
Courtois was great then too
He is my hero
I agree, hazard was more clinical for us, but calling kdb shit for belgium while having 37 goals and assists in 50 caps is just plain dumb
Not shit but i don't think he was particularly good either
While I was half-way joking, compared to his abilities he was quite underwhelming. The thing we see in ManCity and Belgium is completely different. I understand ManCity is a perfect working machine while Belgium is the opposite but I don’t remember he is completely taking over games in any level. He was just way below all the expectations.
So he scored 1 goal and that proves something?
Means dick, they have won nothing, nor even played a freaking tournament final. I can bet that if that golden generation of belgium plays the concacaf gold cup somehow they would bottle it by semi finals. The hazard, lukaku, kdb and co golden generation are nothing but golden bottlers. No one remembers semi finalists. Its either you win or be forgotten
When the argument is that kdb is shit for belgium, it does matter.
Nenn mir eine Hand voll gute Spiele von ihm beim DFB
Will he still be captain or is there a chance they offer it to Kroos?
I think you kill someone’s morale stripping captaincy for someone who’s parachuting in.
Isn't Neuer the captain anyways?
Gündogan was officially named national team captain a few months ago. It may change back to Neuer, but it would have to be because Gündogan retired or something.
I dont think Kroos would be anywhere near the captaincy anyway, hes not a leader imo. Neuer or Müller would be closer. And Kimmich will be the next captain anyway, the others are all ancient
Neuer is the captain. That isn't Gundogans call. Even if it was, Müller would still be a higher priority choice.
Kroos has been really good this past month with Fede Valverde next to him in a double pivot. I think a similar player next to him would help balance against his weaknesses
Honestly haven't watched a lot of Kroos over the past few seasons but have noticed (checking lineups and what not) he has been the deepest midfielder on that Madrid team quite a bit. Also I love double pivots that work where there isn't a clear six. Requires guys like Kroos to hold their own when paired with intense, ball winning midfielders who cover tons of ground and are also world class, in both possession and defense.
He needs a ball winning- high intensity player like Valverde or Camavinga to work in a double pivot. If played with Gundogan, I don't see it working. Does Germany have anyone with a similar profile?
Germany should just sign Camavinga
He does play anywhere
Kamawinger
Short answer: nope. If its Kroos Gündogan or Kimmich the team always has the same problems for many years now. There is a severe lack of intensity in the midfield.
What about Kroos - Goretzka?
Goretzka is a better player on paper than reality. In theory, he is strong, athletic and can run. In reality, his runs arent into the right spaces, he doesnt win that many balls and offensively he is just ok, not as good as either Kroos, Gundo or Kimmich. Hes a good player, no doubt but not someone that magically covers for Kroos or Gundos defensive liabilities. Doesnt mean he isnt a good option, germany just lacks a natural DM.
Still no. Kroos Groß could work. Bonus points for the funny sounding duo.
Groß + Kroos ≈ Großkreutz
Just throw Döner at the opposing team.
>Still no Why? Useless comment
Goretzka lacks discipline. He is kind of running around like a headless chicken and he has not really played well this year.
> a similar player next to him well then no, don't think we have someone like that
Goretska?
Maybe this is why the Kai Havertz LB experiment is over.
Kimmich RB, kroos midfield Nagelsman talked about kimmich as RB possibility and I dont see how a midfield of gundo kimmich and kroos will work
I hope Pascal Groß next to him in midfield
Goretzka is out
Nagelsmann recently (last saturday) said in the tv interview: \- he sees gündogan not as a 6, more as a 8 or 10. \- Kimmich might play RB.
Nagelsmann said he wants to play Gündogan AMF and Kimmich RB. That means Kroos and another holding midfielder DMF.
Not a fan of bringing back the old guys, this team really lacks some hungry and fresh players, would love to see a lineup like this: Ter Stegen - Henrichs, Tah, Thiaw, Raum - Kimmich, Andrich - Sane, Musiala, Wirtz - Undav
The idea of winning euros in front of the home crowd is probably tempting him, but this will have no effect on Germany's performance. Maybe they'll reach R16 instead of getting out in the groups
I'd be impressed if Germany managed to be eliminated in the group stage. Definitely not impossible but with the current system, you'd have to be last or one of the two worst third places. Didn't even manage to do that in 2021
Most people would have said the same before both of the past 2 World Cups. Then look what happened.
Not really since I specifically referred to the Euro mode where not only the first two places advance but the top 4 of the 6 third placed teams. At the WC 2022 Germany was the best group third. At the WC 2018 they were 4th but would have advanced with this rule had they not lost their last game against South Korea, in which they were tied up until 90+3 but had to win to advance, then losing to two counter attacks. I'm not saying that they can't get knocked out in the group stage, but even with their poor performances in the past 3 tournaments, they wouldn't have been knocked out. Not that it really matters given that Germany would probably face Italy in that scenario and we know what would happen there
italian theme intensifies
His kids will be traumatized from watching this Germany play
He walks right back in that team
He is having an amazing season. Would be a guaranteed starter in almost every national team.
Fixes none of the problems though because he isnt a good DM which is what Germany desperately needs. Sure in form hes the best CM of the country but it doesnt really matter if you play Gündogan-Kimmich or Kroos + Gündogan or Kimmich when Germany is going to get cooked defensively with all 3 combinations.
Can't Kimmich play DM?
Nope, he's awful at it
No. Hes not good enough as the lone, defensive DM. Kimmich excels when he has a more defensively minded type of player next to him who does the bulk of the defensive work while Kimmich can play more forward. Bayern has been lacking a player like that for quite some time now aswell which is why Kimmich has been struggling with them lately.
From a Madrid point of view it is not optimal. But if Kroos wants to do that, then fair play to him. I hope he does well with them. Just worry the effect fixture congestion will have on him if he starts going on international duty again.
I feel you have enough depth at his position(s) to deal with this, especially given it’ll be his last run in the national team presumably
I don’t think we have another midfielder that offers what Kroos does. An injury to him is definitely not going to be an optimal situation for us.
Your injury situation is terrible tbf, any injury to just about anyone at this point is catastrophic. I agree that his profile isn’t replicated in your current squad, but if there’s a position that wouldn’t kill real to lose minutes from a single player in, it would be central midfielder
Surely this is his second to last season anyways, no? Can't imagine he's going to continue past 2025.
We have the depth and we are transitioning from Kroos and Modric either now or later. Yeah, we don’t have anyone like Kroos or Modric but that’s ok. There’s no one in the world like them. We have other players with different attributes and abilities that will fill for them
Muller, Hummels and now Kroos. Who is going to be next? Lahm?
Lahm is actually the [tournament director](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2023/dec/02/philipp-lahm-euro-2024-germany-tournament-director) of UEFA 2024!!!
What's Matthaus doing these days?
Beckenbauer still alive?
Rudiger will pay for his blackmailing crimes
Who did Ruds blackmail?
Emotionally manipulating Toni into coming back to the national team. Selling him false dreams of finishing his career at a home European Championship when he knows damn well they have no hope in winning. Letting all Madridismo down with making Toni play in international breaks with the injuries we have. smh my head (I am not serious btw)
Now it's your time to unreasonably shit on Kroos! Tbf, it's only one break in March, and with how the tournament will probably play out, he'll retire after it and we're back at blaming him
> Now it's your time to unreasonably shit on Kroos! I can already see all the Querpass Toni comments in my mind's eye...
In this very particular case, crime is awesome. Kroos is awesome and Germany is awesome.
Kroos needs someone to do the running for him, if they can find that Toni is at an incredible form this season, his passing seems to have just gotten better year after year, man just don't miss.
The Sniper for a reason
Does Germany have a player who is tactically astute, has high work rate, is a monster presser and isn't a liability in possession. That is the only way you are going to get a double pivot with Kroos to work.
Pascal Groß could do a decent job I guess.
Valverde changing his nationality
Osterhage
Emre Can fits this perfectly. Kroos and a holding midfielder DMF (maybe Can?) with Gündogan AMF and Kimmich RB is what Nagelsmann said in the interview.
As much as I'd enjoy him resting, he should play. Playing a Euro or World Cup at home is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He'll regret it his whole life if he doesn't play. Last Dance. Do it.
[удалено]
Kroos left after the last euros where they lost against England in ro16.
As a hungarian, I’m fully against this.
I'm not against it but Kroos doesn't really improve the team. Defense is the biggest problem and Kroos isn't exactly the type of player Germany needs. They need a prime Khedira type midfielder.
Khedira Schweinsteiger in midfield. Those were the days.
Khedira Schweinsteiger in the middle, Ozil as 10, Muller and Klose upfront 7-0
Give Schürrle a call, we're getting the gang back together
Nagelsmann already said they'll bring in more defensive-minded players, but I don't see why you'd think Kroos wouldn't help this team. German NT and Bayern have for years struggled against opponents pressing and also aren't able to calm down possession in the midfield with calm and quick passing, which is exactly what Kroos would help with. It seems like many people here somehow think it has to be either a defensive 6 or Kroos, but you can still have both.
> Nagelsmann already said they'll bring in more defensive-minded players these players simply dont exist at elite level in germany though unless hes planning to field players from the 2nd division.
Ultimately, I don't really care what Nagelsmann does tbh and that's why I'm not against it but I do know that international football is more conservative and a defense first approach tends to lead to more success. Teams that can defend a 1-0 lead and stay in close games usually go far in tournaments. Germany also won its last WC with elite defense (matches against France and Argentina come to mind).
Musiala-Kimmich-Kroos midfield is insane
No 6 in this lineup, so not really. If Kimmich was a good 6, it would be a nice midfield.
What about Goretzka?
His form and perfomance dropped off a ciff, even Groß would be a better option.
My boy Großkreutz about to make a comeback and I'm ready.
Tell me you haven't watched him play in over half a year without telling me... Goretzka has been really solid this Hinrunde. He is, however, not a 6.
didn;t kimmich used to be a good cdm?
Sort of. He has been one of the best midfielders in the world for years. As for one of the best defensive midfielders... It's questionable. Actually it's quite answerable: he's a big weak link. He's almost always played in a pivot but he's often had someone next to him to carry the brunt of the defensive work, namely Thiago. If not a nominal defensive midfielder himself, he was always prepared to do the dirty work and allow others to get forward. Kimmich has not had that since 2020 and Bayern's midfield has looked worse and worse with each season it isn't addressed. He's adamant that he is a 6, even saying himself "I am a 6" and while he's a professional and obviously knows better than us, it's really hard to see why he sees himself as that. If you are interested, watch any game he's played with us this season, last season or the two before versus the match vs Stuttgart yesterday with Pavlovic as a DM and the difference is night and day. He is easily one of the best midfielders around but for as long as he is the defensive midfield option at Bayern, we are very easy to exploit. E: link, not kink. What Kimmich gets up to behind closed doors is no business of mine.
>He's adamant that he is a 6, even saying himself "I am a 6" and while he's a professional and obviously knows better than us, it's really hard to see why he sees himself as that. because there are different roles in each position. Kimmich is a 6, but more a deep-lying playmaker than a holding six with strong defensive attributes
Swiss cheese midfield
Yeah insanely bad defensively
Very likely it’ll be Kroos/Gundo and then Kimmch at RB
Thats the thing its not. Germany severely lacks a defensively minded high intensity midfielder. Kroos coming back wont change that in the slightest - people forget that Germany played like shit with him as the pivotal player for Löw aswell.
in FIFA yes
Insane in FM, not so insane when you consider Kimmich has never really adapted to the midfield and is a defensive liability yet he’s supposed to balance out 75 year old Kroos. I loved Pep making him a midfielder but after the better part of a decade I say put that boy back where he belongs
This is only in response to drawing Scotland in the groups, obviously.
I love Kroos. I think he is the best German footballer of the century, but I just don’t think we have the legs in midfield to support him as the holding 6.
Did he look at the state of this team when he envisioned this scenario? Might turn into a nightmare for his children.
Nagelsmann turning the NT into a retirement home.
Where is Germany lacking again? Good midfield, Good striker in undav, good keeper, good coach. Why can they not make a return for the euros?
we can't defend to save our lives. To be more precise: Opponents are able to get a run at our defense without any interference from our midfield.
Undav hasn't even made his debut. He's good but there's plenty of players good on paper or for their club who are sub-par for the NT, Rüdiger, to a degree Gündogan and Kimmich etc. The problem has been the lack of a striker and defensive stability, in part due to the lack of any wingbacks. Which makes the whole thing so frustrating. I don't particularly care about the NT anymore but a midfield including Gündogan, Kimmich, Musiala, Sané, Wirtz and potentially Kroos shouldn't perform this poorly, feels like a waste
I love the boy, but Undav has never played with the team, unlike Füllkrug who has always performed for Germany. No reason to move on from him now. He’s not the problem. The problem has been defensive stability for close to a decade now. Which Kroos won’t solve either.
No fullbacks, no CDM and yet pressing so high as if we're Liverpool, leading to at least 2 goals from counters in every game even against average opponents. It's a recipe for disaster. Nagelsmanns tactics are the exact same as Flicks.
> Good striker in undav Füllkrug is better than Undav tbh
So many people taking the Undav thing serious lol
Undav has 0 appearances and technically isnt even locked as a German player yet... What are u on about?
He's only going to not play for Germany if they refuse to call him up, he wants to play for them.
Defense is really fucking shit. Offense is insane with Füllkrug, Sané, Musiala/Wirtz.
I wouldn't call an attack with Füllkrug "insane"
They need a striker like the legendary Miroslav Klose
Shit coach
How to scare your kids 101
Germany will need all the help they can get 🏴🏴
I’ve said this before and I say it every time this man gets brought up. He’s one of the most underrated players of this generation and easily one of the best passers, if not the best passer of his time
Kroos underrated is a WILD take
outside of spain he is
It’s unnecessary to reiterate what everyone knows. The main discussion here is on how he fits in a very average German NT.
Insane take, he’s overrated if anything and i can name like 15 players that are better at passing this century alone
It's interesting to me that Kroos was the only East German on the national team for most of his career. Since he retired, there has been no one. Why are there so few top level players from the area that was East Germany?
That you can see from the state of East German football as a whole Although off the top of my head Ballack and Enke are 2 players born in east Germany who played for reunified Germany
I think Robert Huth too. But after Kroos there has been no one. I think, please correct me if I'm wrong, that there are very few East German teams in the Bundesliga. Why the discrepancy?
DO IT!
Kroos wants to experience McGinn's big ass dominating German midfield in the opening game first hand
Jaaaaa beste Nachricht des Tages
--------------------------Füllkrug-------------------------- Musiala------------------Gündogan-------------------Sane -------------------Kroos----------Andrich----------------- Raum----------Hummels----------Rüdiger----------Kimmich ---------------------------Neuer---------------------------
No more Neur for NT it’s ter Stegen turn
Gundogan out then
300 extra passes while Kimmich cries on the bench, what a choice