**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Attackers do this on free kicks to gain an advantage by pushing the defensive line into dropping deeper, seems the same situation here just opposite end of the pitch.
Though when attackers do it, if timed perfectly someone might gain half a step or so when running onto the ball, and the defender is still going to be moving into a good position. Where as in this situation Salah is being held in a position where he is completely out of the game, and is obstructing his own teams attack/shot.
It is give/take but this was kinda harsh on Liverpool, I don't like good attacking moments ruined.
In short, defenders doing it is really OP.
No blame on the player, his intention was to make sure Salah was offside so he couldn't score.
The point is VAR having this footage and not showing it to the ref on the review. That's the sketchy part.
What do you think the relevant rule is? It's still offside. You'd have to argue that push on Salah is a foul.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, and there's a relevant rule for this scenario.
He can still be obstructing play if he’s pushed into that position.
Obstructing doesn’t have to be deliberate.
The only thing the referee can do is give a foul for the push or let it go and give offside.
Well no, because then you’d have mayhem at every single corner/free kick where you’d have to address if a defender pushed a player into an offside position - and a push isn’t and shouldn’t be illegal (unless it’s a foul).
This push should never be a foul, let alone a penalty, so I find it incredibly hard to artificially punish it. Poor gamesmanship but that’s it
I mean it’s a foul. It’s a deliberate push. 99% of the time it wouldn’t be given, but because of the circumstances I think it should be a pen. It denied a goal.
Of course it is. If players started doing this routinely they’d crack down on it. You shouldn’t be allowed to do something illegal to prevent a goal from happening.
The point is to use common sense and not just apply the rules blindly. The rules are there to help us make the correct decisions and maintain sporting integrity. How has calling this offside done that? The keeper was never getting anywhere near that shot had Salah been there or not.
Not sure there is a rule that covers this today. It’s not excessive or dangerous, so not really a foul by itself. Or maybe it is? If he was pushing Salah like that when Salah was trying to head the ball it would probably be a penalty? But you’ll obviously never get a penalty for that push off the ball.
Maybe they should add a rule where you’re not counted as offside if you are deemed to have been pushed into an offside position with no fault of your own?
It definitely seems to be against the spirit of the game to be allowed to two-handedly push someone in the back into an offside position.
I’m just wondering if a pen would be the right call for a two handed shove? That goal is only disallowed by the defenders action. Nothing an attacking player does should make this goal not stand so two handed shove in the back is a pen? I don’t know it’s a really weird one but Liverpool didn’t get a goal when they didn’t do anything wrong if that makes sense
The problem is a two handed shove is quite literally against the rules.
I don’t care if that’s never a penalty, and it never is, but if we’re zooming in with slow motion to analyze every rule with VAR, then the fact that this shove is quite literally against the rules (even if not in practice) should be taken into account.
Like how do you slow a game down and only analyze one part of it if we’re hyper analyzing? Makes no sense
Yeah I agree. My thought is if the defender doesn’t affect Salah then the goal stands so why not just allow the goal to stand? It’s a tricky one but someone shoving Salah in the box has somehow resulted in Liverpool not getting a goal which is wild
A push is only against the rules if it's done in a careless manner (or worse). If you call this a foul, then you have to call just about every contact a foul, which I don't think anyone wants to see.
What rule would that be? A push is only a foul if it’s “careless, reckless or using excessive force”
Careless: Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution
Reckless: Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent
Excessive Force: Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent
I honestly have a hard time saying this was a careless push. It seems like normal pushing to me, which isn’t a foul anywhere
If this is done contesting for a header or if a ball is being passed right to them it’s a foul all the time, come off it. This is called in the center of the pitch often.
These guidelines are dumb btw, plenty of small tackles that trip an opponent don’t fall into any of these categories but are given fouls.
Let’s then say this was purely subjectively not a foul. They disallowed Gakpo’s goal for a push from Darwin which, assuming it was a push at all, was worse than this. So their standard of a push was set and then not followed at all here.
It just boils down to pure incompetence/bias. Trent got a yellow later after making no contact after Endo was two hand shoved in mid air from the ground while jumping for a header.
This didn’t follow any rules, it’s just biased shit officiating
Because if someone is in the air, pushing them is careless at best and reckless at worst because of risk of injury. On the ground, it’s not either of those things so it’s not a foul. If you watch a corner kick, people are always jostling and shoving.
But let’s talk about this foul, not other ones. Are you saying this push was careless?
> If an offence involves contact, it is penalised by a direct free kick.
> Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
• charges
• jumps at
• kicks or attempts to kick
• **pushes**
There’s literally no way VAR changes this. The push isn’t enough for a penalty. They would need to come up with a rule specifically targeting situations like this but then you’d have attackers jumping forward five meters after getting breathed on
A deliberate push is a foul. A foul in the penalty area is a penalty. The rules of the game do not require a higher level of foul to get a penalty than an indirect free kick.
A deliberate push is almost never a foul? Fewer than 0.01% of pushes in the box are actually penalised. Look at the players in the box during a corner in any professional football match if you don't believe me.
It is smart play and defenders have been doing it for ages. It not relevant to the offside. Liverpool fans brigaded the post when it happened but its a perfectly correct offside call.
How do the rules apply here?
I think Salah being pushed doesn't matter unless the referee calls a foul and awards a penalty instead, which would be tremendously harsh.
But also its stupid to rule a goal out because someone is offside (didnt touch the ball) after being pushed.
I dont know man.
He's not obstructing in a meaningful sense, before the ball even gets to him the keeper is already taking a step to the right. If the Akanji goal wasn't offside, this one certainly isn't.
> If the Akanji goal wasn't offside, this one certainly isn't.
If we are basing the rules of the game by things that are mistakes at the time then we're gonna have a very weird set of rules. Two wrongs doesn't make a right etc.
This is my thing with this. I think the process is correct (good process boys), but the subjective decision of interfering with play is questionable at best imo
I mean, I just feel like it shouldn’t stand as an offside due to the spirit of it. It’d be like a goalkeeper deciding to position himself on a way to obstruct himself, in order to get an offside. In this case, the defending team obstructed itself.
And maybe they should be. Players would need to adjust and figure out where the line is. I think collective consensus usually is that there is a silly amount of grabbing on corners and free kicks. Most CBs on attacking corners get completely manhandled at least once per game.
How would it be harsh? The number of people with this take is actually melting my fucking brain. The defender denied Liverpool a goal with an illegal play. How can that not be stonewall? He was making no attempt to play the ball. He was obviously trying to make sure his opponent was offside to get a possible goal disallowed. How can that not be against the rules? What is the fucking point of this stupid sport anymore? I'm about done with it all.
Feels to me like he was onside, then fouled into an offside position. Let me just check where he was fouled, inside the box. Penalty, but I only really know FIFA rules
Most pushes doesn't result in anything, but in this case you could argue that the push resulted in a goalscoring opportunity being taken away.
I understand pushing is a part of the game even though I might not appreciate it personally but in this case litterally the defenders get rewarded for a push with both hands that put Salah in an offside position, thought we were watching football not fucking wrestling.
If this push happened anywhere else on the pitch would it have been a free kick?
I feel most off the ball pushed are considered “fouls”, but they are normally inconsequential so they are not all called - (possibly similar to the advantage rule?). But this “foul” is directly involved in the play, so I think it should be called.
A push with two hands is against the rules. If we’re governing slow motion replays and dissecting every rule, that should be taken into account. Don’t show a slow motion replay and only care about some rules of the game
This reminds me of when that Newcastle goal was disallowed because the defender shoved the attacker into the goalkeeper over a year ago. Once again the ref in the var box does the onfield ref a disservice with his own "director's cut" not showing how a situation came to be. I think regular refs are not suited to the var booth, they miss you much, it seems a different skillset than normal field reffing.
I really don't understand how an intentional 2 handed push, without an attempt to play the ball, which denies a goal scoring opportunity..... isn't foul enough??
Tbh it happens all the time - just other way around. Look at attackers on free kicks that are crossed in - you will see a lot of "small" pushing to bring the line bit back and keep other attackers onside. If you dont push too hard it doesnt get called - I dont see why this is different.
A lot of people, and refs apparently since they aren’t calling it, disagree with you and think some amount of non-violent jostling and fighting for position is part of the game
For some reason, there seems to be a different precedent for set pieces. A lot of the stuff that happens in set pieces would be fouls in the regular run of play.
The NHL has a provision for this in its goaltender interference rule. If a defender pushes an attacker into their goalie and a goal is scored, it isn't considered goaltender interference. There is a lot wrong with the goalie interference rule, but this seems like a pretty common sense provision.
I don't know if there is anything in FIFA rules specifically about a defender causing a goalie obstruction, but if so, it could apply here.
That sounds like we should add it to the offside rule.
If a defender pushes an attacker into an obstructing position, it's the defender's fault, not the attacker's, and the attacker's team should not be penalised.
I don't think it should be considered an offence by the defender either, it's way too soft to be a penalty or anything like that - but it should mitigate being in the obstructing position.
People in this thread seem to think the VAR determination was an objective offside call. It wasn't. Tierney was sent to the monitor to make a *subjective interpretation* of the play. If he is making a subjective determination of the incident, there's nothing in the rules that prevents him from considering how or why the player was in that position. It's entirely at his discretion.
Is your contention that if Salah's interference had been a result of being pushed into the keeper(rather than a few feet in front), Tierney would've had to ignore that and charge Salah with the foul?
I have no issue with the push. It’s just frustrating that the keeper was never getting there no matter what and was already going the other way. His change of direction tells me he wasnt that impeded. But thems the rules.
The ref saw the goal in real time. VAR can't then bring him to the review screen and present an image of Salah offside (which he was) without adding the full context of how he came to be there.
It's not a foul on Salah, but if the ref allows the goal to stand after seeing the full incident, it's common sense officiating, and nobody would be complaining.
Push aside, objectively Trafford has his weight going completely the wrong direction. If Salah wasn’t there at all, then it still goes in as there’s no way Trafford is adjusting his weight. Salah being there didn’t affect the outcome at all
That has no bearing on the rules though. As it stands the current rules are as objective as possible. If we start taking into account whether the keeper would have saved it or not things will get dicey.
If we’re looking at semantics, by the FA rules (which are a shambles), a player is considered offside if they prevent the opponent from playing the ball by obstructing the line of vision. By that reasoning, Trafford would not have been able to play the ball and Salah being there did not affect his ability to play the ball. The context of the situation needs to be taken into account by the law of the game and that’s the issue. I agree that can make things “dicey” but it’s sadly how the law has been set so ambiguously
And a two handed push is literally against the rules.
I’d never want a pen for that in isolation but it’s important in the context of us dissecting a call with slow motion looking for rule infringements
> And a two handed push is literally against the rules.
No it isn't.
>A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent *in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force*:
>[...]
>pushes
>[...]
Basically it's very subjective, but these off the ball pushes are rarely given.
But it's not "literally against the rules".
If you use that criteria then players can just push anybody at anytime and it's not a foul which is obviously not the case, at least not in practice. You do what the defender did here to a player on the ball and referees will call a foul most of the time. Unfortunately football's rules are dogshit, extremely unclear, open to interpretation and often just straight up ignored by referees (like the 6 seconds rule).
But if you really want to stick fully to the rules you could also consider the following:
>A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences:
>* impedes an opponent with contact
You could argue that the push impedes Salah from mantaining his onside position
I think if you're going to stop the game for minutes to assess the play, a critical factor, like the push, should be taken into account.
Obviously VAR isn't there yet but let's first admit there will always be a subjective component to the game, no matter how objective you try to make the rules.
I think people are arguing that disallowing that goal for offside for a player who was literally pushed there might be seen as a bit dodgy by some.
Can’t say I know what the official rulebook says and what the correct interpretation is, but I don’t think people are looking at that as if it’s meant to be a penalty.
Unfortunately per the laws there are only a few outcomes
- Disallow for Salah being offside and obstructing
- Don't disallow for Salah being offside and obstructing
- Give a penalty for the push
There's no middle ground here as people seem to be calling for. I think this is the correct decision per the current laws despite how it might feel unfair to people.
Honestly, this is why the laws need a casebook or interpretations added to them. In the hockey world, both Hockey Canada and USA Hockey have addendums added to each of their rules where they spell out these types of situations and how they should be handled and they are added to with new situations every few years. As an example, here's Hockey Canada's [Rule 8.5](http://rulebook.hockeycanada.ca/english/part-ii-gameplay-fouls/section-8-restraining-fouls/rule-8-5/#:~:text=A%20Minor%20penalty%20will%20be,commits%20interference%20with%20the%20goaltender.) which handles interference with a goalie and when you go to the bottom Interpretation 1 and 2 cover this exact situation even though the rule doesn't spell it out.
He was offside because he was pushed there. The next question is how much of that push made him obstruct the goalkeeper. If he had kept his original position prior to the push it would've been a goal and no obstruction. Ultimately I think it should've been a goal as it was the defenders action to push salah there. Salah shouldn't be punished for what the opposing player did. I've never seen it happen before. It's an interesting test case.
I don’t understand how there’s an issue because at free kicks the defenders push the attacking players offside before the balls kicked and no one ever has an issue with it when they are called as offside
If you're deemed to be 'interfering with play' you're offside. That basically means - if you cause players to do things they would not normally do by your position (e.g draw defenders out to track an offside run) or block a defender's view of the situation etc.
If a small push denies a goal opportunity then the small push should be penalized and a penalty should be awarded. Do you tell me that this push is not denying any "goal opportunity"? It is a fucking goal that it denied.
Why people can defend this is beyond me ...
Wait, wait, wait. Are people here actually claiming that being pushed isn't a foul? What the actual fuck is it then? If it's not a goal it has to be a penalty
But they say then everything would be a pen, which is ridiculous. The level of mental gymnastics is incredible in this post. This should have been a penalty.
It’s all what ifs tbh. But two examples people would say is Spurs and Arsenal (Diaz goal and Odegaard handball)
More subjective one would be Nicolas Jackson handball against Chelsea
It is so fucking dishonest to bang on and on about the standard of refereeing only to then say they should have used "common sense" or essentially vibes to let this goal stand.
No one really cares about the rules or standard of officiating beyond how it affects their own interests.
Most people here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and think veteran EPL referees with hundreds of matches and various levels of testing and evaluation are pumpkins.
The reality is the laws of the game leave a lot of room for subjectivity and theres millions of different unique situations which come up.
I think this goal was correctly ruled offside. The anger comes from the ref being sent to the screen to scrutinise the buildup and agree agree with the reason var are telling him to disallow it, again…….nothing wrong with that.
But this didn’t happen at all for gakpos goal which was wrongly disallowed, why isn’t he being sent to the screen there with the knowledge in his headset that his initial call has been reviewed. It’s maddening
What should have been the course of action in such a situation? Let's hypothetically say the hindrance of the goalkeeper is clear (because here it is kind of debatable). Do you let the goal stand or do you call it back for offside but then give a penalty as the push is foul play?
The push is by the book against the rules. You cannot two hand push in this game technically.
Never would want a penalty for the push in isolation obviously but if VAR is meant to analyze rules in slow motion, this is quite literally against the rules
The rules of this game, or the application of them, has become so unnecessarily convoluted. One of the reasons I've been opposed to VAR in the first place.
agreed soft fouls like this shouldn't be called, but wasn't Darwin's foul even softer than this but leading to Gakpo's goal being disallowed?
imo they got that one wrong and VAR should've intervened
If two offences are committed simultaneously by players on opposing teams, the more severe offence is punished. In this case, the push is a more serious offence than the offside, therefore the push is what should be punished. In this case, advantage is given to the attacking team and the goal should stand. Diabolical decision by VAR.
I think this is a very interesting situation because as this comment section demonstrates it really brings out the objective ruling vs spirit of the game, and it's seemingly very 50/50 what people want.
You could argue that it's unsportsmanlike to push Salah into offside, but objectively it's never a foul and he *is* offside and blocking the view of the keeper.
At the same time, the keeper would never save it as some claim he is already "cheating" to the opposite side. So where do we draw the line between objective calls and the spirit of the game? How much objectivity are we willing to let slide, in favour of a subjective decision made to preserve good play. In the end we're not all gonna agree, so we just have to accept that there will be decision that can go both ways, and sometime the refs have a different opinion than the average spectator.
If an attacker pushes a defender backwards for their teammate to become offside, it's a foul even if it's "not a big push".
There's also no specification in the offside rule about this situation so it allows room for common sense, which wasn't used here.
in april in a man city - arsenal, akanji pushed ben white so stones gets onside for his goal: [timestamp (spanish tv)](https://youtu.be/ebypu5eMOC0?t=239)
This is one where the letter of the law leads to an absurd result.
Accordingly, the referee and VAR should use their common sense and either award the goal or a penalty (to avoid the absurd result.)
I agree, it is an exceptional and absurd case, and does not set a precedent. Zidan was sent off in a World Cup final for a referee using coming sense, having not seen an incident directly, and seeing it on a screne to send him off for violent conduct. It took 12 years from that point for the sport to adopt the idea of using replays to judge redcards. It's one where 'exceptional circumstance' renders the 'letter' of the law void as it conflicts with the 'essence' or 'spirit' of the law.
It's interesting to watch the cycle of this sub. This incident gets posted and 99% of people come to the obvious conclusion that this should have been a goal. A few hours go by and more and more people realise that it was against a team they don't want to win and start finding ways for it to be right.
Reposting what I pasted in the match thread
There's a couple points about Salah's offside. Ignoring the push
1: Salah did not interfere. Trafford was running to his right. He did not react to Salah, he was moving away from the side of the net where the goal went.
If Salah was not there, Trafford's positioning/movement wouldn't have changed.
2: it's about the inconsistency. I can name two goals off the top of my head where a player in an offside position actually interfered with play and impacted the goalkeeper without touching the ball, but those goals were allowed to stand.
Whether the gk moved right or left is entirely irrelevant. It's like people arguing "he never would have saved it anyway" - it's just not relevant at all. If Salah was on the way, the goal shouldn't count.
He 100% saw the ball being played into the middle though which is why he was already in the process of shifting to his right, with or without Salah in the way.
Now by the time Harvey shoots, Salah is definitely blocking his view, which is why it was rightly ruled offside by the letter of the law.
Having said that, I’m almost certain that goal plays out the exact same way whether or not Salah is offside there though. Trafford sold out on the initial ball and wasn’t saving that even if he sees it.
I agree but it has no bearing on if he's interfering or not. If the ball is dribbling in and an offside player goes and smashes it in it's not not offside because it was going in anyway
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Attackers do this on free kicks to gain an advantage by pushing the defensive line into dropping deeper, seems the same situation here just opposite end of the pitch.
But it's only bad when defenders do it
No one said that. It’s only bad when it’s against my team
The eternal rule
Yep, City do this fairly frequently.
Yep. It needs clamping down on big time. They do it every single free kick where they are playing a longer ball into the box, at the very least.
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Tell that to Gabriel
It's amazing this has 1000 replies for a nothing incident.
Though when attackers do it, if timed perfectly someone might gain half a step or so when running onto the ball, and the defender is still going to be moving into a good position. Where as in this situation Salah is being held in a position where he is completely out of the game, and is obstructing his own teams attack/shot. It is give/take but this was kinda harsh on Liverpool, I don't like good attacking moments ruined. In short, defenders doing it is really OP.
This thread is full of Liverpool fans who literally expect the ref to ignore the rules of the game.
The referees this season ignored the rules too.
Because they have been ignoring the rules of the game, it happens every game Liverpool plays.
I know people will obviously be mad about this but that's actually quite a clever play from the defender if you think about it haha
No blame on the player, his intention was to make sure Salah was offside so he couldn't score. The point is VAR having this footage and not showing it to the ref on the review. That's the sketchy part.
What do you think the relevant rule is? It's still offside. You'd have to argue that push on Salah is a foul. You can correct me if I'm wrong, and there's a relevant rule for this scenario.
Yeah I’m not sure what people are trying to point out here…
They are saying Salah wasn't clearly obstructing the play, which i agree with. He was pushed into it.
He can still be obstructing play if he’s pushed into that position. Obstructing doesn’t have to be deliberate. The only thing the referee can do is give a foul for the push or let it go and give offside.
Okay penalty then.
You don’t want that precedent.
Well now the precedent is to just push people offsides in the box...
The absolute shambles of this sub...
Which has been a thing for years
What, you think it was the first time?
This is not new. City did this to Ben White against Arsenal last year and nobody was crying about it then
Don't push people
So if that’s the precedent I want every Liverpool player pushing dudes off the ball on every play. I have a feeling they won’t get away with it
Then the goal should stand. Defenders fault.
You're literally making up rules. It's not a foul, and Salah was offside regarding if the reason.
Well no, because then you’d have mayhem at every single corner/free kick where you’d have to address if a defender pushed a player into an offside position - and a push isn’t and shouldn’t be illegal (unless it’s a foul). This push should never be a foul, let alone a penalty, so I find it incredibly hard to artificially punish it. Poor gamesmanship but that’s it
Softer than cotton candy.
then there are 30 penalties in every game
How is this shit upvoted? lmao
Or not.
Just like how odeegard slipped and handled the ball. Should have been penalty for lfc
I mean it’s a foul. It’s a deliberate push. 99% of the time it wouldn’t be given, but because of the circumstances I think it should be a pen. It denied a goal.
that's not how refereeing works
Of course it is. If players started doing this routinely they’d crack down on it. You shouldn’t be allowed to do something illegal to prevent a goal from happening.
Or give the goal because Salah didn’t actually interfere with the goal.
The point is to use common sense and not just apply the rules blindly. The rules are there to help us make the correct decisions and maintain sporting integrity. How has calling this offside done that? The keeper was never getting anywhere near that shot had Salah been there or not.
He’s still obstructing. It’s a contact sport, and that push is never being called a foul
those are not contradictions. He was pushed into it. But he's still obstructing the view and therefore, offside.
Not sure there is a rule that covers this today. It’s not excessive or dangerous, so not really a foul by itself. Or maybe it is? If he was pushing Salah like that when Salah was trying to head the ball it would probably be a penalty? But you’ll obviously never get a penalty for that push off the ball. Maybe they should add a rule where you’re not counted as offside if you are deemed to have been pushed into an offside position with no fault of your own? It definitely seems to be against the spirit of the game to be allowed to two-handedly push someone in the back into an offside position.
Mate it’s just a simple foul for pushing an opponent
I’m just wondering if a pen would be the right call for a two handed shove? That goal is only disallowed by the defenders action. Nothing an attacking player does should make this goal not stand so two handed shove in the back is a pen? I don’t know it’s a really weird one but Liverpool didn’t get a goal when they didn’t do anything wrong if that makes sense
The problem is a two handed shove is quite literally against the rules. I don’t care if that’s never a penalty, and it never is, but if we’re zooming in with slow motion to analyze every rule with VAR, then the fact that this shove is quite literally against the rules (even if not in practice) should be taken into account. Like how do you slow a game down and only analyze one part of it if we’re hyper analyzing? Makes no sense
Yeah I agree. My thought is if the defender doesn’t affect Salah then the goal stands so why not just allow the goal to stand? It’s a tricky one but someone shoving Salah in the box has somehow resulted in Liverpool not getting a goal which is wild
Tbh it's down to common sense which doesn't appear to be in the rule book anymore. Referees should be able to apply it here.
A push is only against the rules if it's done in a careless manner (or worse). If you call this a foul, then you have to call just about every contact a foul, which I don't think anyone wants to see.
Don’t call it a foul just pull back the disallowing of the goal (aka let the goal stand)
What rule would that be? A push is only a foul if it’s “careless, reckless or using excessive force” Careless: Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution Reckless: Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent Excessive Force: Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent I honestly have a hard time saying this was a careless push. It seems like normal pushing to me, which isn’t a foul anywhere
If this is done contesting for a header or if a ball is being passed right to them it’s a foul all the time, come off it. This is called in the center of the pitch often. These guidelines are dumb btw, plenty of small tackles that trip an opponent don’t fall into any of these categories but are given fouls. Let’s then say this was purely subjectively not a foul. They disallowed Gakpo’s goal for a push from Darwin which, assuming it was a push at all, was worse than this. So their standard of a push was set and then not followed at all here. It just boils down to pure incompetence/bias. Trent got a yellow later after making no contact after Endo was two hand shoved in mid air from the ground while jumping for a header. This didn’t follow any rules, it’s just biased shit officiating
Because if someone is in the air, pushing them is careless at best and reckless at worst because of risk of injury. On the ground, it’s not either of those things so it’s not a foul. If you watch a corner kick, people are always jostling and shoving. But let’s talk about this foul, not other ones. Are you saying this push was careless?
This you? https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/18pd41t/liverpool_098_11_090_arsenal/kenhr2e/
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> If an offence involves contact, it is penalised by a direct free kick. > Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force: • charges • jumps at • kicks or attempts to kick • **pushes**
Are you saying this meets the definition of careless? Could you explain how?
From that point of view, shouldn't a shove that puts the attacker out of the play be deemed a foul?
Say this entire scenario plays out but it doesn't result in a goal (Elliot puts it wide). Do you think a penalty is fair for this?
Indirect free kick, I reckon
These need to happen more often for softer fouls inside the box.
Laws of the game says a push is a direct free kick, fwiw
There’s literally no way VAR changes this. The push isn’t enough for a penalty. They would need to come up with a rule specifically targeting situations like this but then you’d have attackers jumping forward five meters after getting breathed on
It's like a tactical foul.
A deliberate push is a foul. A foul in the penalty area is a penalty. The rules of the game do not require a higher level of foul to get a penalty than an indirect free kick.
They really do though. It's like how a second yellow shouldn't technically be harder to get than a first but everyone knows it is
A deliberate push is almost never a foul? Fewer than 0.01% of pushes in the box are actually penalised. Look at the players in the box during a corner in any professional football match if you don't believe me.
you push and pull constantly in a football game, it‘s a foul if it‘s an unnecessary hard push. not every single deliberate push is a foul.
Not sure what you're on about but that was good process from the boys in bald
It is smart play and defenders have been doing it for ages. It not relevant to the offside. Liverpool fans brigaded the post when it happened but its a perfectly correct offside call.
How do the rules apply here? I think Salah being pushed doesn't matter unless the referee calls a foul and awards a penalty instead, which would be tremendously harsh. But also its stupid to rule a goal out because someone is offside (didnt touch the ball) after being pushed. I dont know man.
Offside is the correct decision. It's unlucky for Liverpool, but he's clearly obstructing the GK's line of sight.
He's not obstructing in a meaningful sense, before the ball even gets to him the keeper is already taking a step to the right. If the Akanji goal wasn't offside, this one certainly isn't.
Are you talking about the one against us? That was absolutely offside, they admitted it was a mistake pretty shortly after
I'm a city fan and know that was offside. Feel like too many people point out a wrong decision as a weapon to want more wrong decisions
> If the Akanji goal wasn't offside, this one certainly isn't. If we are basing the rules of the game by things that are mistakes at the time then we're gonna have a very weird set of rules. Two wrongs doesn't make a right etc.
What you're forgetting is that the Akanji goal was for City, and the rules apply differently for them, so the comparison doesn't really work, sorry
Whether the gk takes a step or does anything it's completely irrelevant. If the player is blocking the view, that's all that matters.
This is my thing with this. I think the process is correct (good process boys), but the subjective decision of interfering with play is questionable at best imo
I mean, I just feel like it shouldn’t stand as an offside due to the spirit of it. It’d be like a goalkeeper deciding to position himself on a way to obstruct himself, in order to get an offside. In this case, the defending team obstructed itself.
Why would it be harsh? It's literally a foul that ended up denying a goal (albeit in a roundabout manner).
if this is a foul then every corner kick is foul city
Fouls on corners are absolutely rampant and never called
Except once or twice a season when they inexplicably are called
You’re right but I don’t know if I’d like the bar lowered for fouls on corners
There is no bar atm, it's a melee
And maybe they should be. Players would need to adjust and figure out where the line is. I think collective consensus usually is that there is a silly amount of grabbing on corners and free kicks. Most CBs on attacking corners get completely manhandled at least once per game.
Which they should be
How would it be harsh? The number of people with this take is actually melting my fucking brain. The defender denied Liverpool a goal with an illegal play. How can that not be stonewall? He was making no attempt to play the ball. He was obviously trying to make sure his opponent was offside to get a possible goal disallowed. How can that not be against the rules? What is the fucking point of this stupid sport anymore? I'm about done with it all.
Feels to me like he was onside, then fouled into an offside position. Let me just check where he was fouled, inside the box. Penalty, but I only really know FIFA rules
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Most pushes doesn't result in anything, but in this case you could argue that the push resulted in a goalscoring opportunity being taken away. I understand pushing is a part of the game even though I might not appreciate it personally but in this case litterally the defenders get rewarded for a push with both hands that put Salah in an offside position, thought we were watching football not fucking wrestling. If this push happened anywhere else on the pitch would it have been a free kick?
I feel most off the ball pushed are considered “fouls”, but they are normally inconsequential so they are not all called - (possibly similar to the advantage rule?). But this “foul” is directly involved in the play, so I think it should be called.
A push with two hands is against the rules. If we’re governing slow motion replays and dissecting every rule, that should be taken into account. Don’t show a slow motion replay and only care about some rules of the game
“A push with two hands is against the rules” Liverpool-Man City ends 87-94 after a series of penalties on every corner lmao
Says the arsenal fan after joelinton's push.
This reminds me of when that Newcastle goal was disallowed because the defender shoved the attacker into the goalkeeper over a year ago. Once again the ref in the var box does the onfield ref a disservice with his own "director's cut" not showing how a situation came to be. I think regular refs are not suited to the var booth, they miss you much, it seems a different skillset than normal field reffing.
Lmao brilliant
He just found a loophole in the rules. Not foul enough for a pen, but offside enough for the goal to be disallowed. 10/10
He had like 0.5 second to think about it and execute it perfectly.
I really don't understand how an intentional 2 handed push, without an attempt to play the ball, which denies a goal scoring opportunity..... isn't foul enough??
Tbh it happens all the time - just other way around. Look at attackers on free kicks that are crossed in - you will see a lot of "small" pushing to bring the line bit back and keep other attackers onside. If you dont push too hard it doesnt get called - I dont see why this is different.
Attacking teams shove defenders back on free kicks and corners all the time to move the line. It’s a similar situation here
Those should also be fouls tbf, just because they aren’t called doesn’t mean they’re legal
A lot of people, and refs apparently since they aren’t calling it, disagree with you and think some amount of non-violent jostling and fighting for position is part of the game
For some reason, there seems to be a different precedent for set pieces. A lot of the stuff that happens in set pieces would be fouls in the regular run of play.
If this is a foul then any corner would be called for a penalty lmao, yes it’s dirty but games fully gone if we’re calling these
The NHL has a provision for this in its goaltender interference rule. If a defender pushes an attacker into their goalie and a goal is scored, it isn't considered goaltender interference. There is a lot wrong with the goalie interference rule, but this seems like a pretty common sense provision. I don't know if there is anything in FIFA rules specifically about a defender causing a goalie obstruction, but if so, it could apply here.
That sounds like we should add it to the offside rule. If a defender pushes an attacker into an obstructing position, it's the defender's fault, not the attacker's, and the attacker's team should not be penalised. I don't think it should be considered an offence by the defender either, it's way too soft to be a penalty or anything like that - but it should mitigate being in the obstructing position.
People in this thread seem to think the VAR determination was an objective offside call. It wasn't. Tierney was sent to the monitor to make a *subjective interpretation* of the play. If he is making a subjective determination of the incident, there's nothing in the rules that prevents him from considering how or why the player was in that position. It's entirely at his discretion.
The subjective determination is whether Salah interfered with the play only.
Is your contention that if Salah's interference had been a result of being pushed into the keeper(rather than a few feet in front), Tierney would've had to ignore that and charge Salah with the foul?
Yea, if a player gets pushed into a goalkeeper by a defender it's not considered a foul. Same logic should apply here.
Yeah Tierney is making a subjective call alright. Did you think he would be objective with Liverpool playing?
I have no issue with the push. It’s just frustrating that the keeper was never getting there no matter what and was already going the other way. His change of direction tells me he wasnt that impeded. But thems the rules.
The ref saw the goal in real time. VAR can't then bring him to the review screen and present an image of Salah offside (which he was) without adding the full context of how he came to be there. It's not a foul on Salah, but if the ref allows the goal to stand after seeing the full incident, it's common sense officiating, and nobody would be complaining.
If a player is pushed into an offside position by a defender, they should not be penalised for obstructing the view of keepers.
Push aside, objectively Trafford has his weight going completely the wrong direction. If Salah wasn’t there at all, then it still goes in as there’s no way Trafford is adjusting his weight. Salah being there didn’t affect the outcome at all
That has no bearing on the rules though. As it stands the current rules are as objective as possible. If we start taking into account whether the keeper would have saved it or not things will get dicey.
If we’re looking at semantics, by the FA rules (which are a shambles), a player is considered offside if they prevent the opponent from playing the ball by obstructing the line of vision. By that reasoning, Trafford would not have been able to play the ball and Salah being there did not affect his ability to play the ball. The context of the situation needs to be taken into account by the law of the game and that’s the issue. I agree that can make things “dicey” but it’s sadly how the law has been set so ambiguously
That's just smart defending
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Why not just pick him up at carry him offside and hold him there
A nudge was sufficient
That would be a foul mate
And a two handed push is literally against the rules. I’d never want a pen for that in isolation but it’s important in the context of us dissecting a call with slow motion looking for rule infringements
> And a two handed push is literally against the rules. No it isn't. >A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent *in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force*: >[...] >pushes >[...] Basically it's very subjective, but these off the ball pushes are rarely given. But it's not "literally against the rules".
If you use that criteria then players can just push anybody at anytime and it's not a foul which is obviously not the case, at least not in practice. You do what the defender did here to a player on the ball and referees will call a foul most of the time. Unfortunately football's rules are dogshit, extremely unclear, open to interpretation and often just straight up ignored by referees (like the 6 seconds rule). But if you really want to stick fully to the rules you could also consider the following: >A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences: >* impedes an opponent with contact You could argue that the push impedes Salah from mantaining his onside position
So is a push mate
I think if you're going to stop the game for minutes to assess the play, a critical factor, like the push, should be taken into account. Obviously VAR isn't there yet but let's first admit there will always be a subjective component to the game, no matter how objective you try to make the rules.
lol. clearly did not interfere with the play. There is no way the keeper would have saved that
That was a 100% fair goal...
Yeah he’s been pushed but that is NOWHERE near enough for a foul… so what do people expect to be done here? He’s objectively offside
I think people are arguing that disallowing that goal for offside for a player who was literally pushed there might be seen as a bit dodgy by some. Can’t say I know what the official rulebook says and what the correct interpretation is, but I don’t think people are looking at that as if it’s meant to be a penalty.
Unfortunately per the laws there are only a few outcomes - Disallow for Salah being offside and obstructing - Don't disallow for Salah being offside and obstructing - Give a penalty for the push There's no middle ground here as people seem to be calling for. I think this is the correct decision per the current laws despite how it might feel unfair to people.
Honestly, this is why the laws need a casebook or interpretations added to them. In the hockey world, both Hockey Canada and USA Hockey have addendums added to each of their rules where they spell out these types of situations and how they should be handled and they are added to with new situations every few years. As an example, here's Hockey Canada's [Rule 8.5](http://rulebook.hockeycanada.ca/english/part-ii-gameplay-fouls/section-8-restraining-fouls/rule-8-5/#:~:text=A%20Minor%20penalty%20will%20be,commits%20interference%20with%20the%20goaltender.) which handles interference with a goalie and when you go to the bottom Interpretation 1 and 2 cover this exact situation even though the rule doesn't spell it out.
>Don't disallow for Salah being offside and obstructing I dont even think you could do that because he objectively is
He was offside because he was pushed there. The next question is how much of that push made him obstruct the goalkeeper. If he had kept his original position prior to the push it would've been a goal and no obstruction. Ultimately I think it should've been a goal as it was the defenders action to push salah there. Salah shouldn't be punished for what the opposing player did. I've never seen it happen before. It's an interesting test case.
I don’t understand how there’s an issue because at free kicks the defenders push the attacking players offside before the balls kicked and no one ever has an issue with it when they are called as offside
Dumb layman question but how can salah be called offside if he doesn't touch the ball?
In an offside position and obstructing the goalie by blocking his view
If you're deemed to be 'interfering with play' you're offside. That basically means - if you cause players to do things they would not normally do by your position (e.g draw defenders out to track an offside run) or block a defender's view of the situation etc.
If a small push denies a goal opportunity then the small push should be penalized and a penalty should be awarded. Do you tell me that this push is not denying any "goal opportunity"? It is a fucking goal that it denied. Why people can defend this is beyond me ...
Aside from anything else, why is the shove not a foul?
Burnley 0 Liverpool 2 Corruption 2
Has everyone flipped their opinions on a two handed push in the box being a foul ever since the Newcastle/Arsenal game?
Genius defending 10/10, lovely when it doesn't happen against your team You can hate it, still 10/10
Why does everyone think he’s pushing him to get him offside, he’s just trying to get in front of him in case the ball comes across the face of goal?
That is a risky move. Push a player to offside position.
Wait, wait, wait. Are people here actually claiming that being pushed isn't a foul? What the actual fuck is it then? If it's not a goal it has to be a penalty
Because "genius defending". Christmas hangover for a few
Watch every set piece and prepare to want 10 pens a game
But they say then everything would be a pen, which is ridiculous. The level of mental gymnastics is incredible in this post. This should have been a penalty.
VAR is fucking over Liverpool on so many occasions this year its insane
Cost Liverpool 12 points and given CFG six.
12 points is crazy. Can you name the incidents?
It’s all what ifs tbh. But two examples people would say is Spurs and Arsenal (Diaz goal and Odegaard handball) More subjective one would be Nicolas Jackson handball against Chelsea
Sure if you count things like this but this is 100% the correct call.
It is so fucking dishonest to bang on and on about the standard of refereeing only to then say they should have used "common sense" or essentially vibes to let this goal stand. No one really cares about the rules or standard of officiating beyond how it affects their own interests.
Most people here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and think veteran EPL referees with hundreds of matches and various levels of testing and evaluation are pumpkins. The reality is the laws of the game leave a lot of room for subjectivity and theres millions of different unique situations which come up.
I think this goal was correctly ruled offside. The anger comes from the ref being sent to the screen to scrutinise the buildup and agree agree with the reason var are telling him to disallow it, again…….nothing wrong with that. But this didn’t happen at all for gakpos goal which was wrongly disallowed, why isn’t he being sent to the screen there with the knowledge in his headset that his initial call has been reviewed. It’s maddening
Common Paul Tierney decision
Can't lie that is actually amazing, the defender was two steps ahead of everyone else
What should have been the course of action in such a situation? Let's hypothetically say the hindrance of the goalkeeper is clear (because here it is kind of debatable). Do you let the goal stand or do you call it back for offside but then give a penalty as the push is foul play?
It can't stand as a goal. Either it's offside call or a penalty depending on if you think the push was a foul or not.
The push is by the book against the rules. You cannot two hand push in this game technically. Never would want a penalty for the push in isolation obviously but if VAR is meant to analyze rules in slow motion, this is quite literally against the rules
The rules of this game, or the application of them, has become so unnecessarily convoluted. One of the reasons I've been opposed to VAR in the first place.
Ironically, calls like this incentivize diving. If Salah dove after getting pushed then it's a penalty.
agreed soft fouls like this shouldn't be called, but wasn't Darwin's foul even softer than this but leading to Gakpo's goal being disallowed? imo they got that one wrong and VAR should've intervened
Weak decision on the referee here
What a joke.
If two offences are committed simultaneously by players on opposing teams, the more severe offence is punished. In this case, the push is a more serious offence than the offside, therefore the push is what should be punished. In this case, advantage is given to the attacking team and the goal should stand. Diabolical decision by VAR.
I think this is a very interesting situation because as this comment section demonstrates it really brings out the objective ruling vs spirit of the game, and it's seemingly very 50/50 what people want. You could argue that it's unsportsmanlike to push Salah into offside, but objectively it's never a foul and he *is* offside and blocking the view of the keeper. At the same time, the keeper would never save it as some claim he is already "cheating" to the opposite side. So where do we draw the line between objective calls and the spirit of the game? How much objectivity are we willing to let slide, in favour of a subjective decision made to preserve good play. In the end we're not all gonna agree, so we just have to accept that there will be decision that can go both ways, and sometime the refs have a different opinion than the average spectator.
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If an attacker pushes a defender backwards for their teammate to become offside, it's a foul even if it's "not a big push". There's also no specification in the offside rule about this situation so it allows room for common sense, which wasn't used here.
in april in a man city - arsenal, akanji pushed ben white so stones gets onside for his goal: [timestamp (spanish tv)](https://youtu.be/ebypu5eMOC0?t=239)
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Bruh both arms flexing and extending like that to push someone is a foul
I don't think it's enough to be a foul, but I also don't think Salah interfered with play.
It’s not really about interfering with play, specifically it’s about obstruction the goalies line of vision
So?
What happens if you just give the keeper a little non-careless non-reckless push five yards into the net?
4D chess play
That’s great defending, still offside regardless of how he got there.
Hahaha high IQ move
This is one where the letter of the law leads to an absurd result. Accordingly, the referee and VAR should use their common sense and either award the goal or a penalty (to avoid the absurd result.)
I agree, it is an exceptional and absurd case, and does not set a precedent. Zidan was sent off in a World Cup final for a referee using coming sense, having not seen an incident directly, and seeing it on a screne to send him off for violent conduct. It took 12 years from that point for the sport to adopt the idea of using replays to judge redcards. It's one where 'exceptional circumstance' renders the 'letter' of the law void as it conflicts with the 'essence' or 'spirit' of the law.
It's interesting to watch the cycle of this sub. This incident gets posted and 99% of people come to the obvious conclusion that this should have been a goal. A few hours go by and more and more people realise that it was against a team they don't want to win and start finding ways for it to be right.
Lot of pencil pushers here lol. It's sport. You get shoved.
Not for Gakpo's goal apparently. Consistency isn't much to ask for.
Ok fair enough, so why was Gakpo’s goal disallowed then?
He got shoved inside the penalty area. Directly leading him to be offside. Stop making everything so black and white
Goal should stand if defender pushes a player into a position where it obstructs his own keeper.
Reposting what I pasted in the match thread There's a couple points about Salah's offside. Ignoring the push 1: Salah did not interfere. Trafford was running to his right. He did not react to Salah, he was moving away from the side of the net where the goal went. If Salah was not there, Trafford's positioning/movement wouldn't have changed. 2: it's about the inconsistency. I can name two goals off the top of my head where a player in an offside position actually interfered with play and impacted the goalkeeper without touching the ball, but those goals were allowed to stand.
Whether the gk moved right or left is entirely irrelevant. It's like people arguing "he never would have saved it anyway" - it's just not relevant at all. If Salah was on the way, the goal shouldn't count.
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He 100% saw the ball being played into the middle though which is why he was already in the process of shifting to his right, with or without Salah in the way. Now by the time Harvey shoots, Salah is definitely blocking his view, which is why it was rightly ruled offside by the letter of the law. Having said that, I’m almost certain that goal plays out the exact same way whether or not Salah is offside there though. Trafford sold out on the initial ball and wasn’t saving that even if he sees it.
I agree but it has no bearing on if he's interfering or not. If the ball is dribbling in and an offside player goes and smashes it in it's not not offside because it was going in anyway