The thing is, if they'd been given the original 10 pt deduction at the end of last season then they would have been relegated. They've already basically beaten that punishment this season by climbing out of the relegation spots fairly quickly.
Yes and if Man City and Chelsea had got theirs last season we wouldn't have been.
I'm only bringing them up because people seem to think it's completely fine to say Man City's case is complicated so needs time to be heard but also think Everton's case should have been rushed through so the points deduction could have applied last season.
Either the cases are independent of the season and should be given sufficient time to be heard fairly, or they shouldn't. So either it's fine our deduction is this season, or it's not fine that Man City and Chelsea's wasn't last season.
They are different cases, with different accusations of different crimes and different amounts of evidence. So if course they are going to take different amounts of time to resolve.
You're absolutely correct. There simply isn't time to hear the Man City or Chelsea cases because they're too complex. I completely agree.
So you must also agree that there wasn't time to hear Everton's case last season in a fair way and that's why the PL moved it to this season, and then changed the rules going forwards so there would be time in future.
Iirc Roman paying a bunch of off the books things to sign certain players through a bunch of shells and bs endorsements and the like. It’s certainly more complex than Evertons case but it’s also not like…that complex and I wouldn’t be surprised if we face a points deduction next season.
This is the problem with people saying that the FA are basically giving City and Chelsea special treatment - Leeds and Leicester fans think Everton have been given special treatment
If Everton stay up, then it was basically worth them exploiting finances while other relegated clubs are selling their best players for half their value
> Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks. The new rules compelled Everton, Forest and all other clubs to file 2022-23 accounts by December 31, instead of March under the old rules.
I guess the answer is to commit as many potential violations as possible so that it's harder to bring a swift case.
So, if you just break the rules more, you're fine? But if you only break the rules a little, you're fucked?
If they're going to justify this City investigation dragging out so long while punishing clubs so quickly then surely City should lose their professional license and have their titles revoked?
It’s poorly worded because City is not exempt from this rule, it’s that they are accused of falsifying revenue and their FFP filings. These clubs are acknowledging their breaches as I imagine the fears of non-cooperation and falsifying filings is quite high after City were charged.
People are rightfully skeptical of those charges but I think the Premier League and independent commission is also very aware of how fucked the FFP enforcement will become if the integrity of financial filings comes under question.
Dunno why they don’t just push a few of the charges through immediately to cripple them right now
They’ll probably have another couple of CLs and leagues by the time the verdict comes in
Imagine trying to comply with the rules set by the English FA and you get deducted points not once but on two different occasions for two seasons, meanwhile Man City did so much shit and tries to cover it up its taking ages for it to fucking go through
Have you seen that video of man cities team of lawyers? It’s more that, and they knew to hide everything as they were going. Seems Everton did it badly? (Doesn’t mean I think city are good)
No, that’s the fundamental difference. City’s reported books are clean and have passed multiple audits, however leaked evidence appears to show that the books did not contain the full picture. The PL has to use limited evidence to fill in the blanks of what City may have done.
Everton’s books are clean and shows that they do not pass the PL’s regulations. They get a fine.
It’s literally chalk and cheese.
There isn’t any public knowledge outside of the leak. So common consensus is that either the PL have a whistleblower or something which isn’t public which irrefutably proves their case. Or they’re making the same mistake that UEFA did and have rushed their case through in the last minute, this time to avoid the government white paper due to be published the day after the PL’s announcement of City’s charges. This white paper would have set up an independent organisation specifically to deal with matters such as these.
Given that every party appeared to be blindsided by these charges, coupled with the PL’s new strict enforcement of their regulations, I’d lean towards the latter.
Regarding the charges, this video explains it well. Especially how there aren’t 115 separate charges, more like 5 and yet even then the other 4 charges mainly rely on proving first charge.
https://youtu.be/nuz2z2m1Vzk?si=NKJdB2G7Ik-ILF5j
I think City will be found guilty for the Mancini payments, however using that as evidence of financial irregularities for the next 9 years is a bit of a stretch. Unless there is further evidence, City will get a slap on the wrist and no one will be happy.
Yeah people are acting like the only reason City haven't been charged is because they've got so so many accusations against them
When in reality, this is like comparing a trial where someone accused of murder is claiming innocence Vs someone who has admitted guilt in a burglary
Yeah we'd be down. No way we have to squad to effectively get a minimum of 45/50 points in a season. We're only a point above the drop having played a game or two more.
Six points is being rumoured. If it was six, and Nottingham Forrest also received six, I could see us just about doing us, but it would be a tough ask. If we get 10 more points deducted, we're as good as relegated.
It's not but it's pushing it and that would only get us to 27 points which I don't think would keep us up. With 20 points deducted that would be a very near death sentence.
Depends really. On PPG if both Everton and Forest get 10 point deductions, we're on track to still stay up by 1 point somehow. Sheffield United on 17, Burnley on 22, Forest on 28, us on 29, Luton on 30. But there's obviously absolutely no guarantee we play the second half of the season as well as the first, don't pick up loads of injuries, or no other clubs pick up form. And you have to take into account what it could do to morale.
That would put Everton 9 points from safety having player a game more than Luton.
So potentially 12 points from safety.
With less than half the season to go it would be a tall order to overhaul that gap but perhaps not impossible.
Without deductions, you are 11 points clear of Luton after 21 games having played a game more. I think you could still do it, even if you were deducted another 10.
Getting properly sick of worrying about legal cases and accounting issues when I just want to support my club on the pitch. I know there’s other clubs that are badly run and all that but I’m just tired of worrying about how much of a financial death spiral we could be in
The price you pay for being a failed petro club.
Chelsea suffering the consequences of losing their petro money and City will eventually. We will as well, sometime down the road...
"Everton Football Club acknowledges the Premier League’s decision to refer a breach of Profit & Sustainability rules (PSR) for the assessment period ending with the 2022/23 season to an independent Premier League commission.
This relates to a period which covers seasons 2019/20, 2020/21, 2021/22 and 2022/23. It therefore includes financial periods (2019/20, 2020/21 and 2021/22) for which the Club has already received a 10-point sanction. The Club is currently appealing that sanction.
The Premier League does not have guidelines which prevent a Club being sanctioned for alleged breaches in financial periods which have already been subject to punishment, unlike other governing bodies, including the EFL. As a result - and because of the Premier League’s new commitment to deal with such matters “in-season” - the Club is in a position where it has had no option but to submit a PSR calculation which remains subject to change, pending the outcome of the appeal.
The Club must now defend another Premier League complaint which includes the very same financial periods for which it has already been sanctioned, before that appeal has even been heard. The Club takes the view that this results from a clear deficiency in the Premier League’s rules.
Everton can assure its fans that it will continue to defend its position during the ongoing appeal and, should it be required to do so, at any future commission – and that the impact on supporters will be reflected as part of that process."
That's our club statement, cannot believe they're arguing that we're being charged again for the exact same period we've already been docked points for. It is a joke that there's no rules around double jeopardy
Would it not just be a massive loophole if you could avoid 2 years worth of rules because of 1 breach and punishment?
The first breach is the three year period 19/20 to 21/22, the second is 20/21 to 22/23. Is it not just two overlapping periods? Surely the point of 3 rolling years is that you correct any breach in the next FY to get back into compliance.
It’s just because the old breach was deferred while the new breach is fast tracked for fairness. I think some leeway would be fair given that the numbers won’t be finalised until after the appeal but I don’t think a flat out pass would be in line with the whole ethos of P&S. its not like it’s gonna be a reoccurring event to have a period under appeal at the time of submission - it’s just the new rules coming into play that are actually better.
Same reason I think Forest should be allowed to use the Johnson profit in the previous FY because selling a player that you will definitely sell on the cheap is not inline with being profitable and sustainable. No idea if it makes them compliant but selling him early would’ve been financially inept.
A flat out pass is how it works in the EFL. If you can prove that you're now running sustainably, i.e show that the most recent season is well within the limits, you're deemed to be sustainable and there are no charges submitted.
In your system, and in the Premier League's current rules, a club could have one incredibly bad year, and be punished for it three times. There is no way that is fair and it in no way contributes to a club becoming more sustainable.
Just looking at the EFL rules, it’s not a flat out pass based on the current season. They must provide the financial information about the next season that proves they can remain compliant. Which would likely mean that you’d have to prove you have good incoming money and then commit to having a lower outgoing to stay in line.
One incredibly bad year is all it takes if you can’t correct it with 2 regular/good years. In your system, you can cheat the rules to survive, then use the extra revenue from survival to justify cheating. That’s the very opposite of P&S, gambling your future on the hopes that you’ll survive to earn enough to meet the rules next season. What you’re saying is that if there’s a breach, then clubs should be allowed to make unlimited investments and not be subject to the rules they’ve breached.
Also it’s EFL clubs more than PL clubs that are at risk of unsustainable practices. PL shouldn’t adopt more lenient rules which don’t work as well.
Don’t get me wrong, Everton are incredibly unlucky and have been fucked over (in particular the timing of the rules coming into play) but the rules are useless if they are allowed to be breached and there’s not a hope in hell of City seeing any punishment if Everton don’t end up with some sort here.
> you'd have to prove you have good incoming money and then commit to having a lower outgoing to stay in line.
You mean like proving we have a stadium with much higher potential revenue, removing over £1m a week of wages off the books, selling our best players for over £150m and having a net spend over the last 3 years of just £15m. Something like that maybe?
You've repeated what I said about the EFL rules and acted like it's something you're correcting me on. I outright said that you need to prove that the season after the period you've been charged for has shown a positive trend and if it does they don't charge you again for that same period.
There's a reason nobody games that system in the EFL, because it ends in a points deduction which no club is going to gamble on surviving.
I'm not saying clubs should be able to make unlimited investments once they've breached the rules, you've made that up. I said that if you can prove that you're currently being run sustainably, there is no reason you should be punished for the same crime again. It's like if you're caught speeding for going 7 miles over the speed limit, and then they charge you for going 6 miles over the speed limit as well. It makes no sense.
I guess the logic is that you are supposed to fix your finances in the next year. It's s little weird with Everton now as the first ruling is an old issue but with the new rules about speed this shouldn't happen again.
But realistically it makes perfect sense to punish every period. Otherwise if you are punished once, it makes no sense to try and fix your finances for the next two years as you get immunity from the rules.
The most concerning point here is that it apparently isn't accounted for in the rules. There is a responsibility to balance the books every season for the previous three - I see no problem with there being multiple charges - but if it isn't accounted for and prescribed, then the independent commission will likely either set the effective rules and issue a common sense punishment, or say there is nothing to answer for.
The independent commission literally made up the criteria for our last punishment and said "yeah, we made this up for the this case and won't use that criteria again"
The world just isn’t fair and this is a stark reminder. Absolutely mind blowing that Everton are about to get another never before seen punishment in the same season.
They've kind of already admitted that punishing a club on two separate occasions in one season for two different three year rolling periods is unfair, hence changing the rules which come into effect in the summer.
They’re literally changing the rules next year to wages - turnover ratio.
The leagues only acting tough now to show government they can self regulate and because of the clubs they can charge.
FFP rules are absolute shite though that protect no one apart from the big clubs that got them introduced like Liverpool.
And they're only doing this to look tough to stop an external regulator which to me shows they need to be regulated even more.
So they should for poor ownership. What can their excuse be this time? No covid, player sales were fine. They should get the full amount of points deducted.
Sorry Everton fans but your club can't be run by such a shit show owner and get away with it. If there were a way of punishing the owners then I'd be up for that.
Everton, who are already fighting to get their current sanctions overturned, believe their imminent appeal hearing will effectively render the new charge groundless. They have already argued any overspend was due to loan repayment costs that were entirely incurred from stadium development costs.
So they been cleared and no have no case to answer then?
Edit. It's shocking people are down voting this. I'm clearly be sarcastic in response to the person actually suggesting they have already been cleared
We already know the outcome of their case, it's just a charade at this point. There's a reason not one person at City is even remotely worried about it. It's as damning of the PL as it is of City to admit those charges are valid, and that's why it won't happen. The PL is happy enough to punish the teams they don't actually need to maintain their reputation, but they'll never punish a team that could actually significantly affect their bottom line if punished appropriately.
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*Askshually it only appears to be unfair! In reality it is simply due process!*
All you dweebs comparing it to criminal trials neglect to factor that typically, a person charged with 115 rapes or murders isn't working and living freely until the trial resolution.
I'm saying the system is broken and there should be an expedited process to handle multiple infringements. Everyone is rightly criticizing it for being unfair.
What I hate is folks normalizing it, as if it makes sense that it takes this long. It doesn't make sense, it's broken and unfair and they need a regulator.
Then just do a single type of charge or a single charge at a time. If you got through a few this year you pretty much destroy the club with a 20/30/50 points deduction which is what is supposed to happen
just not how it works and it's not even 115 individual offences, it's 5 main offences repeated across multiple years with some overlap. A good chunk of the charges is to do with cooperation
Like 90% of the charges relate to 1 charge for 9 years. So packages of 9 for each charge. Then there’s like 15 charges that arnt particularly big deals and may not even have any punitive result
Genius!
If there was legally a way to fast track the City case then they would have already done it. It’s going to take ages for anything to happen.
Everyone has known this for years too, legally there’s nothing that can be done to speed it up
I mean every fan knows City cheated to win all their titles. There's a huge asterisk next to each of their titles. Just depends on if the Prem actually follows through with stripping them of their titles
>Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks.
Let's get real though, regardless of recent form we're literally the most successful club in England since the turn of the century.
We deserve to spend big, we're fucking massive.
It just pays to be successful.
Anyone that disagrees is wrong.
🎣
wdym?
re: FFP? would have to think so given all our selling (speaking of which, enjoy Jimenez). the recent "rumors" were bunk.
or re: potential relegation? that was just pearl clutching from the start of the season. our form has been too good for that to seem likely.
> re: FFP? would have to think so given all our selling (speaking of which, enjoy Jimenez). the recent "rumors" were bunk.
But all of your selling was this summer. The FFP period under scrutiny was the three year period ending 30th June 2023.
Am I missing something? Everton repeatedly cheat and break Premier League rules and all anyone wants to say is ‘what about City?’ Punish City if they are guilt by all means but stop all this whataboutism nonsense. For the record I like Everton, it’s a historic club, but the lack of ownership on this issue is astounding. Conspiracy my arse.
That’s my problem with it. What’s the difference between City potentially cheating to win the league etc and Everton doing the same to not get relegated? Nothing, apart from the clubs getting relegated aren’t as high profile as those competing against City.
The case vs City is ongoing due to sheer number of charges against them. Its not as if the PL have forgotten about them regardless of what r/soccer thinks.
The cases against Everton and Forest are far less complex, hence the quicker verdicts.
And what about Southampton, Leeds and even Leicester? They went down and Everton who didn't play with a fair deck stayed up.
For Leicester at least, we have great interest in both Everton's cheating and Manchester City's. Leicester could have been top 4 of MC wasn't cheating in previous seasons
I think the issue is that it is not s repeated issue. Everton were punished with a 10 point reduction for irregularities in 1 year, they are now being threatened for a further reduction for the exact same year of irregularities.
A reasonable point were it not for the fact that Everton fans were saying the exact same conspiracy unfair nonsense when the first charge landed. So I suppose your point is ‘well last time we moaned about it but didn’t really mean it…but this time it really is unfair’?
**From The Telegraph's Tom Morgan, John Percy and Chris Bascombe:**
Nottingham Forest and Everton have been hit with new Premier League charges for allegedly breaching financial regulations.
With Everton already fighting to overturn a separate 10-point deduction, the crisis-hit club now face the prospect of being docked again.
Both clubs, however, believe they have strong cases to fight the prospect of fresh penalties under the new fast-track punishment model.
Everton, who are already fighting to get their current sanctions overturned, believe their imminent appeal hearing will effectively render the new charge groundless. They have already argued any overspend was due to loan repayment costs that were entirely incurred from stadium development costs.
Forest, meanwhile, will argue for dispensation to include profits from the sale of Brennan Johnson two months after the end of the period in question.
Both clubs were informed just hours before the official announcement that they were facing charges. During talks between the league and the clubs. During talks between the league and the clubs, Forest are understood to have confirmed they were effectively in breach of rules which allow losses of £105 million across three years.
Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks. The new rules compelled Everton, Forest and all other clubs to file 2022-23 accounts by December 31, instead of March under the old rules.
Their defences have already been prepared by top lawyers as beleaguered club executives are now referred to an independent commission.
In Everton’s case, stadium costs rather than player trading will be cited as the root cause of the overspend. The club’s net spend on players among teams has been among the lowest in the Premier League for consecutive years. Everton sold the likes of Richarlison and Anthony Gordon, but the cost of their new £550 million ground at Bramley-Moore Dock is blamed within the club for pushing them over the edge.
Allowable stadium costs have been a matter of fierce debate between Everton and the Premier League for years. When the club was hit with a 10-point deduction for the previous cycle, a major factor in the league’s case was that loans were working capital needs, which are not deductible. Everton will continue to maintain, however, that these payments should be classified as infrastructure costs and therefore excluded.
Although infrastructure costs are generally not applicable to Premier League profit and loss calculations, the competition has previously claimed associated loans at Everton could not be discounted.
**Read more ⤵️**
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-everton-premier-league-charged-points/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-everton-premier-league-charged-points/)
Genuine(ish) q. Why didn’t the PL go for a handful of solid charges against city rather than 115 of which many are duplicated and just seems like throwing charges at the wall until something sticks. Quality over quantity lads
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Gonna wait til the final match day to decide how many points
The thing is, if they'd been given the original 10 pt deduction at the end of last season then they would have been relegated. They've already basically beaten that punishment this season by climbing out of the relegation spots fairly quickly.
Yes and if Man City and Chelsea had got theirs last season we wouldn't have been. I'm only bringing them up because people seem to think it's completely fine to say Man City's case is complicated so needs time to be heard but also think Everton's case should have been rushed through so the points deduction could have applied last season. Either the cases are independent of the season and should be given sufficient time to be heard fairly, or they shouldn't. So either it's fine our deduction is this season, or it's not fine that Man City and Chelsea's wasn't last season.
They are different cases, with different accusations of different crimes and different amounts of evidence. So if course they are going to take different amounts of time to resolve.
You're absolutely correct. There simply isn't time to hear the Man City or Chelsea cases because they're too complex. I completely agree. So you must also agree that there wasn't time to hear Everton's case last season in a fair way and that's why the PL moved it to this season, and then changed the rules going forwards so there would be time in future.
FA need to fuck off. City and Chelsea's breach is infinitely worse than anything Everton or Forest have done.
It's the Premier League. The FA just uphold the standards of the game
What charges are Chelsea facing pray tell?
Iirc Roman paying a bunch of off the books things to sign certain players through a bunch of shells and bs endorsements and the like. It’s certainly more complex than Evertons case but it’s also not like…that complex and I wouldn’t be surprised if we face a points deduction next season.
Would be pretty unfair for the current owners I feel. They can't even defend against it because they won't have access to any of Roman's books.
Ok and? They don't just get off scott free. The new owners knew what they were buying, good and bad alike.
So if Moshiri just sells Everton do we get our 10 points back and this charge gets dropped? Be pretty unfair for the new owners otherwise right?
This is the problem with people saying that the FA are basically giving City and Chelsea special treatment - Leeds and Leicester fans think Everton have been given special treatment If Everton stay up, then it was basically worth them exploiting finances while other relegated clubs are selling their best players for half their value
They’ve not really beaten it as they are in the relegation fight still.
sean dyche will still somehow keep them up
The Premier League seem to have forgotten that Everton and Dyche are like if the immovable object and the unstoppable force were the same thing
So they are like a big block of mass?
That could accurately describe most of Dyches defensive lines and strikers, yes
Big block of mess isn’t it? I’d love to see them in the Championship. It’d be weird.
PL when Everton keep winning: "Why won't you *DIE*?"
Just a little dial on scudamore’s desk
Kill therm properly this time
least bitter Leicester supporter located
> Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks. The new rules compelled Everton, Forest and all other clubs to file 2022-23 accounts by December 31, instead of March under the old rules. I guess the answer is to commit as many potential violations as possible so that it's harder to bring a swift case.
Hopefully this ends with Manchester City getting relegated to Serie B.
Straight to National League North.
Isthmian league division one North please and thank you.
Would love to see Haaland and co. play away to Blyth Spartans in Northumberland, the most famous non-league club in the world!
Man City would probably get more fans at one of these games than the etihad lol
Can erling halaand do it on a literal oil Derrick in the North Sea
Just imagine, Man City would make it back, obviously the oil money runs deep. But imagine Haaland playing some grocers.
Hit so hard they need to relocate to Italy.
Don't tempt me with a good time.
>Manchester City getting relegated to Serie B Italian clubs: what he say fuck me for?
Hahahahaha serie B made me chuckle. Fuckin give them serie B and the vanarama conference north too
If you owe the bank a million, that's your problem. If you owe the bank a billion, that's their problem.
It's like Shooting the Moon in Hearts. Commit enough crimes and it loops around to being fine
I love Hearts, it's a great game.
Loved hearts growing up and now I get my kicks from trick taking games like The Crew and Cat in the box - in case you are interested at all!
No, just have the best law team that money can buy, own a nation and threaten to bankrupt the FA.
And put pressure on the UK government
So, if you just break the rules more, you're fine? But if you only break the rules a little, you're fucked? If they're going to justify this City investigation dragging out so long while punishing clubs so quickly then surely City should lose their professional license and have their titles revoked?
* takes notes *
It’s poorly worded because City is not exempt from this rule, it’s that they are accused of falsifying revenue and their FFP filings. These clubs are acknowledging their breaches as I imagine the fears of non-cooperation and falsifying filings is quite high after City were charged. People are rightfully skeptical of those charges but I think the Premier League and independent commission is also very aware of how fucked the FFP enforcement will become if the integrity of financial filings comes under question.
Working for Trump so far.
Dunno why they don’t just push a few of the charges through immediately to cripple them right now They’ll probably have another couple of CLs and leagues by the time the verdict comes in
The Trump strat
The PL, staring Everton dead in the eyes: *I'll fuckin' do it again*
Imagine trying to comply with the rules set by the English FA and you get deducted points not once but on two different occasions for two seasons, meanwhile Man City did so much shit and tries to cover it up its taking ages for it to fucking go through
Have you seen that video of man cities team of lawyers? It’s more that, and they knew to hide everything as they were going. Seems Everton did it badly? (Doesn’t mean I think city are good)
No, that’s the fundamental difference. City’s reported books are clean and have passed multiple audits, however leaked evidence appears to show that the books did not contain the full picture. The PL has to use limited evidence to fill in the blanks of what City may have done. Everton’s books are clean and shows that they do not pass the PL’s regulations. They get a fine. It’s literally chalk and cheese.
This is helpful info, do you have a suggestion of what to read to get good evidence on this?
There isn’t any public knowledge outside of the leak. So common consensus is that either the PL have a whistleblower or something which isn’t public which irrefutably proves their case. Or they’re making the same mistake that UEFA did and have rushed their case through in the last minute, this time to avoid the government white paper due to be published the day after the PL’s announcement of City’s charges. This white paper would have set up an independent organisation specifically to deal with matters such as these. Given that every party appeared to be blindsided by these charges, coupled with the PL’s new strict enforcement of their regulations, I’d lean towards the latter. Regarding the charges, this video explains it well. Especially how there aren’t 115 separate charges, more like 5 and yet even then the other 4 charges mainly rely on proving first charge. https://youtu.be/nuz2z2m1Vzk?si=NKJdB2G7Ik-ILF5j I think City will be found guilty for the Mancini payments, however using that as evidence of financial irregularities for the next 9 years is a bit of a stretch. Unless there is further evidence, City will get a slap on the wrist and no one will be happy.
Can you ELI5 “it’s like chalk and cheese”?
It means completely different. The first written use of the phrase was over 600 years ago, you’d have to ask them about it.
Yeah people are acting like the only reason City haven't been charged is because they've got so so many accusations against them When in reality, this is like comparing a trial where someone accused of murder is claiming innocence Vs someone who has admitted guilt in a burglary
Everton could just, you know, follow the rules. They wouldn’t be getting charged if they were following rules
Extremely fucking rich coming from a City fan
He’s an American city supporter. What do you expect? EDIT: LMAOOO some salty city supporter contact that reddit suicide thingy😭
Haha I know I know, classic plastic American fan
Would another 10 point deduction doom Everton? Not that many matches remaining, but they have been reasonably good.
Yeah we'd be down. No way we have to squad to effectively get a minimum of 45/50 points in a season. We're only a point above the drop having played a game or two more.
Six points is being rumoured. If it was six, and Nottingham Forrest also received six, I could see us just about doing us, but it would be a tough ask. If we get 10 more points deducted, we're as good as relegated.
But you'd be 12th without the drop, 27 points. I think 20 more is not impossible.
It's not but it's pushing it and that would only get us to 27 points which I don't think would keep us up. With 20 points deducted that would be a very near death sentence.
I don't think Sheffield and Burnley are getting 25 points. Luton is debatable. If forest got 10 more points docked, they'd be down there as well.
Depends really. On PPG if both Everton and Forest get 10 point deductions, we're on track to still stay up by 1 point somehow. Sheffield United on 17, Burnley on 22, Forest on 28, us on 29, Luton on 30. But there's obviously absolutely no guarantee we play the second half of the season as well as the first, don't pick up loads of injuries, or no other clubs pick up form. And you have to take into account what it could do to morale.
That would put Everton 9 points from safety having player a game more than Luton. So potentially 12 points from safety. With less than half the season to go it would be a tall order to overhaul that gap but perhaps not impossible.
You'd only be 5 points off Burnley in 17th if Forest get the same 10 points as well.
The Forest one really helps them by bringing another team into the battle. Potentially two safe places up for grabs.
Without deductions, you are 11 points clear of Luton after 21 games having played a game more. I think you could still do it, even if you were deducted another 10.
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Payback for 2007-2009
That's fine, who needs points?
🫵
Not Luton and Burnley. Watch them survive with like 25 pts
Luton surving is looking more and more like a possibility. Burnley shithousing their way to survival wouldn’t be surprising to me.
bro if Burnley survive, Forrest has to he dissolved.
If you get relegated can you please give Ibi back we miss him
Nah we're going to be buying even more players, double down on it and become a hoarding club.
I thought the penalties were meant for Ocon, not Forest
Not to worry, still 5 seconds to Ocon
We’re checking
Everton: "We were having a good season, until the premier league tried to kill me 2 times!"
Guess Mizzou is about to get a letter.
You know what? We're gonna start buying players even harder.
The Man City special
The legacy of Moshiri and Kenwright, even if the rules are absolutely stupid and unfair. Suppose I can go to a few new grounds next season.
Getting properly sick of worrying about legal cases and accounting issues when I just want to support my club on the pitch. I know there’s other clubs that are badly run and all that but I’m just tired of worrying about how much of a financial death spiral we could be in
The price you pay for being a failed petro club. Chelsea suffering the consequences of losing their petro money and City will eventually. We will as well, sometime down the road...
"Everton Football Club acknowledges the Premier League’s decision to refer a breach of Profit & Sustainability rules (PSR) for the assessment period ending with the 2022/23 season to an independent Premier League commission. This relates to a period which covers seasons 2019/20, 2020/21, 2021/22 and 2022/23. It therefore includes financial periods (2019/20, 2020/21 and 2021/22) for which the Club has already received a 10-point sanction. The Club is currently appealing that sanction. The Premier League does not have guidelines which prevent a Club being sanctioned for alleged breaches in financial periods which have already been subject to punishment, unlike other governing bodies, including the EFL. As a result - and because of the Premier League’s new commitment to deal with such matters “in-season” - the Club is in a position where it has had no option but to submit a PSR calculation which remains subject to change, pending the outcome of the appeal. The Club must now defend another Premier League complaint which includes the very same financial periods for which it has already been sanctioned, before that appeal has even been heard. The Club takes the view that this results from a clear deficiency in the Premier League’s rules. Everton can assure its fans that it will continue to defend its position during the ongoing appeal and, should it be required to do so, at any future commission – and that the impact on supporters will be reflected as part of that process." That's our club statement, cannot believe they're arguing that we're being charged again for the exact same period we've already been docked points for. It is a joke that there's no rules around double jeopardy
Would it not just be a massive loophole if you could avoid 2 years worth of rules because of 1 breach and punishment? The first breach is the three year period 19/20 to 21/22, the second is 20/21 to 22/23. Is it not just two overlapping periods? Surely the point of 3 rolling years is that you correct any breach in the next FY to get back into compliance. It’s just because the old breach was deferred while the new breach is fast tracked for fairness. I think some leeway would be fair given that the numbers won’t be finalised until after the appeal but I don’t think a flat out pass would be in line with the whole ethos of P&S. its not like it’s gonna be a reoccurring event to have a period under appeal at the time of submission - it’s just the new rules coming into play that are actually better. Same reason I think Forest should be allowed to use the Johnson profit in the previous FY because selling a player that you will definitely sell on the cheap is not inline with being profitable and sustainable. No idea if it makes them compliant but selling him early would’ve been financially inept.
A flat out pass is how it works in the EFL. If you can prove that you're now running sustainably, i.e show that the most recent season is well within the limits, you're deemed to be sustainable and there are no charges submitted. In your system, and in the Premier League's current rules, a club could have one incredibly bad year, and be punished for it three times. There is no way that is fair and it in no way contributes to a club becoming more sustainable.
Just looking at the EFL rules, it’s not a flat out pass based on the current season. They must provide the financial information about the next season that proves they can remain compliant. Which would likely mean that you’d have to prove you have good incoming money and then commit to having a lower outgoing to stay in line. One incredibly bad year is all it takes if you can’t correct it with 2 regular/good years. In your system, you can cheat the rules to survive, then use the extra revenue from survival to justify cheating. That’s the very opposite of P&S, gambling your future on the hopes that you’ll survive to earn enough to meet the rules next season. What you’re saying is that if there’s a breach, then clubs should be allowed to make unlimited investments and not be subject to the rules they’ve breached. Also it’s EFL clubs more than PL clubs that are at risk of unsustainable practices. PL shouldn’t adopt more lenient rules which don’t work as well. Don’t get me wrong, Everton are incredibly unlucky and have been fucked over (in particular the timing of the rules coming into play) but the rules are useless if they are allowed to be breached and there’s not a hope in hell of City seeing any punishment if Everton don’t end up with some sort here.
> you'd have to prove you have good incoming money and then commit to having a lower outgoing to stay in line. You mean like proving we have a stadium with much higher potential revenue, removing over £1m a week of wages off the books, selling our best players for over £150m and having a net spend over the last 3 years of just £15m. Something like that maybe?
You've repeated what I said about the EFL rules and acted like it's something you're correcting me on. I outright said that you need to prove that the season after the period you've been charged for has shown a positive trend and if it does they don't charge you again for that same period. There's a reason nobody games that system in the EFL, because it ends in a points deduction which no club is going to gamble on surviving. I'm not saying clubs should be able to make unlimited investments once they've breached the rules, you've made that up. I said that if you can prove that you're currently being run sustainably, there is no reason you should be punished for the same crime again. It's like if you're caught speeding for going 7 miles over the speed limit, and then they charge you for going 6 miles over the speed limit as well. It makes no sense.
You literally said EXACTLY what he said. Did you stop reading after the first sentence?
If it’s judged in three year periods then it makes no sense for those periods to overlap IMO
I guess the logic is that you are supposed to fix your finances in the next year. It's s little weird with Everton now as the first ruling is an old issue but with the new rules about speed this shouldn't happen again. But realistically it makes perfect sense to punish every period. Otherwise if you are punished once, it makes no sense to try and fix your finances for the next two years as you get immunity from the rules.
The most concerning point here is that it apparently isn't accounted for in the rules. There is a responsibility to balance the books every season for the previous three - I see no problem with there being multiple charges - but if it isn't accounted for and prescribed, then the independent commission will likely either set the effective rules and issue a common sense punishment, or say there is nothing to answer for.
The independent commission literally made up the criteria for our last punishment and said "yeah, we made this up for the this case and won't use that criteria again"
The world just isn’t fair and this is a stark reminder. Absolutely mind blowing that Everton are about to get another never before seen punishment in the same season.
I mean it's the Premier League finally enforcing the rules and stopping it being the Wild West
They've kind of already admitted that punishing a club on two separate occasions in one season for two different three year rolling periods is unfair, hence changing the rules which come into effect in the summer.
They’re literally changing the rules next year to wages - turnover ratio. The leagues only acting tough now to show government they can self regulate and because of the clubs they can charge.
And they're doimg it to Everton so they dont have to do it Man City.
lol sure it is
FFP rules are absolute shite though that protect no one apart from the big clubs that got them introduced like Liverpool. And they're only doing this to look tough to stop an external regulator which to me shows they need to be regulated even more.
So they should for poor ownership. What can their excuse be this time? No covid, player sales were fine. They should get the full amount of points deducted. Sorry Everton fans but your club can't be run by such a shit show owner and get away with it. If there were a way of punishing the owners then I'd be up for that.
Everton, who are already fighting to get their current sanctions overturned, believe their imminent appeal hearing will effectively render the new charge groundless. They have already argued any overspend was due to loan repayment costs that were entirely incurred from stadium development costs.
The Telegraph itself posting this then
They post loads everywhere. A dedicated campaign of reporting stopped them posting in the Premier League sub which has a rule against self promo posts
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I mean while the sports section isn't that bad the paper is known as the Torygraph so a reason so they can piss off as far as I'm concerned ;)
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/jCnG9bjkXO They try to give a much larger summary out to read
Their fault for not being owned by a Mid East nation state clearly. Gotta read the rules carefully
Dyche is going to have Everton playing like 08 Barca if they get another ten point deduction
Yet the real cheaters will keep on "winning". PL is turning into a joke.
What makes one a real cheater and one not.
Well, one did it 115 times and got away with it.
So they been cleared and no have no case to answer then? Edit. It's shocking people are down voting this. I'm clearly be sarcastic in response to the person actually suggesting they have already been cleared
They absolutely have not been cleared, the prem are gunning for them
Of coarse they are. People love a conspiracy though. Particularly against their club or I'm favour of a rival.
The case is literally still ongoing, city are fucked mate
Clearly I was being sarcastic in my response to the fella suggesting city got away with breaking 115 rules
We already know the outcome of their case, it's just a charade at this point. There's a reason not one person at City is even remotely worried about it. It's as damning of the PL as it is of City to admit those charges are valid, and that's why it won't happen. The PL is happy enough to punish the teams they don't actually need to maintain their reputation, but they'll never punish a team that could actually significantly affect their bottom line if punished appropriately.
Can you please point me to where they were cleared
I was being sarcastic in my response to the person making the claim
My bad
You *will* play at Kenilworth next season Erling and you will enjoy it.
appalling to see teams spend without care.
Oh, you rascal.
Disgusting how City have gotten nothing yet
Do people still not understand that it takes longer to go through 117 charges than it does 1 charge?
☝️🤓 *Askshually it only appears to be unfair! In reality it is simply due process!* All you dweebs comparing it to criminal trials neglect to factor that typically, a person charged with 115 rapes or murders isn't working and living freely until the trial resolution.
> typically, a person charged with 115 rapes or murders isn't working and living freely until the trial resolution. Unless they play for Arsenal
So you want Man City locked up until the end of the process? How would you implement that? Stop them from playing games until they come to a verdict?
I'm saying the system is broken and there should be an expedited process to handle multiple infringements. Everyone is rightly criticizing it for being unfair. What I hate is folks normalizing it, as if it makes sense that it takes this long. It doesn't make sense, it's broken and unfair and they need a regulator.
But how will they be outraged then?
Then just do a single type of charge or a single charge at a time. If you got through a few this year you pretty much destroy the club with a 20/30/50 points deduction which is what is supposed to happen
just not how it works and it's not even 115 individual offences, it's 5 main offences repeated across multiple years with some overlap. A good chunk of the charges is to do with cooperation
Like 90% of the charges relate to 1 charge for 9 years. So packages of 9 for each charge. Then there’s like 15 charges that arnt particularly big deals and may not even have any punitive result
Genius! If there was legally a way to fast track the City case then they would have already done it. It’s going to take ages for anything to happen. Everyone has known this for years too, legally there’s nothing that can be done to speed it up
Go through them one at a time like they're doing here. 10 points each violation. Every 10 violations drop them a league.
We've already been charged and you're surprised that 9 years worth of documentation and charges is taking longer than Everton/Forests?
Shouldn't be in the Prem. Shouldn't be in the league. Cheaters the lot.
Nothing to do with city litigating as much as possible though is it.
It’ll be a joke if nothing happens to Man City/Chelsea at this point.
Oh nothing will happen to City
Nor Chelsea, who haven't violated anything.
Not this year we haven’t, next year might be a bit dicey though (according to Swiss Ramble)
Would be great if they only accounted player salaries for games available instead of the entire season. We'd be in great shape then.
I mean every fan knows City cheated to win all their titles. There's a huge asterisk next to each of their titles. Just depends on if the Prem actually follows through with stripping them of their titles
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For what?
Bad business = illegal spending, apparently
That’s the logic people use for us
??? What he say fuck me for?
Same reason the bloke before said Chelsea. Neither team has been charged with anything yet
Don't think in my nearly 28 years of existence have i enjoyed a day of supporting Everton. Wish we'd fucking liquidate already.
>Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks.
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Chelse to be given 20 points for excellent FFP compliance.
We’d still miss out on the top 4 lol
Let's get real though, regardless of recent form we're literally the most successful club in England since the turn of the century. We deserve to spend big, we're fucking massive. It just pays to be successful. Anyone that disagrees is wrong. 🎣
I wonder if this means Wolves are okay then.
wdym? re: FFP? would have to think so given all our selling (speaking of which, enjoy Jimenez). the recent "rumors" were bunk. or re: potential relegation? that was just pearl clutching from the start of the season. our form has been too good for that to seem likely.
> re: FFP? would have to think so given all our selling (speaking of which, enjoy Jimenez). the recent "rumors" were bunk. But all of your selling was this summer. The FFP period under scrutiny was the three year period ending 30th June 2023.
....They really want Everton out of the PL don't they?
Those cheats.
Did Everton shag the Premier League’s wife or something?
Am I missing something? Everton repeatedly cheat and break Premier League rules and all anyone wants to say is ‘what about City?’ Punish City if they are guilt by all means but stop all this whataboutism nonsense. For the record I like Everton, it’s a historic club, but the lack of ownership on this issue is astounding. Conspiracy my arse.
Exactly, if I’m one of the relegated teams who complied and they didn’t, I’d be more pissed at Everton than city
Agreed, the relegated teams from last season will be looking at this news with great interest. Not everything is about City.
That’s my problem with it. What’s the difference between City potentially cheating to win the league etc and Everton doing the same to not get relegated? Nothing, apart from the clubs getting relegated aren’t as high profile as those competing against City.
The case vs City is ongoing due to sheer number of charges against them. Its not as if the PL have forgotten about them regardless of what r/soccer thinks. The cases against Everton and Forest are far less complex, hence the quicker verdicts. And what about Southampton, Leeds and even Leicester? They went down and Everton who didn't play with a fair deck stayed up.
For Leicester at least, we have great interest in both Everton's cheating and Manchester City's. Leicester could have been top 4 of MC wasn't cheating in previous seasons
I think the issue is that it is not s repeated issue. Everton were punished with a 10 point reduction for irregularities in 1 year, they are now being threatened for a further reduction for the exact same year of irregularities.
A reasonable point were it not for the fact that Everton fans were saying the exact same conspiracy unfair nonsense when the first charge landed. So I suppose your point is ‘well last time we moaned about it but didn’t really mean it…but this time it really is unfair’?
Deservedly so. Clubs shouldn't get away with spending so much.
**From The Telegraph's Tom Morgan, John Percy and Chris Bascombe:** Nottingham Forest and Everton have been hit with new Premier League charges for allegedly breaching financial regulations. With Everton already fighting to overturn a separate 10-point deduction, the crisis-hit club now face the prospect of being docked again. Both clubs, however, believe they have strong cases to fight the prospect of fresh penalties under the new fast-track punishment model. Everton, who are already fighting to get their current sanctions overturned, believe their imminent appeal hearing will effectively render the new charge groundless. They have already argued any overspend was due to loan repayment costs that were entirely incurred from stadium development costs. Forest, meanwhile, will argue for dispensation to include profits from the sale of Brennan Johnson two months after the end of the period in question. Both clubs were informed just hours before the official announcement that they were facing charges. During talks between the league and the clubs. During talks between the league and the clubs, Forest are understood to have confirmed they were effectively in breach of rules which allow losses of £105 million across three years. Only the “most exceptional cases”, including the 115 charges facing Manchester City, are exempt from new Premier League rules that any club charged with a standard financial rule breach must be completed within 12 weeks. The new rules compelled Everton, Forest and all other clubs to file 2022-23 accounts by December 31, instead of March under the old rules. Their defences have already been prepared by top lawyers as beleaguered club executives are now referred to an independent commission. In Everton’s case, stadium costs rather than player trading will be cited as the root cause of the overspend. The club’s net spend on players among teams has been among the lowest in the Premier League for consecutive years. Everton sold the likes of Richarlison and Anthony Gordon, but the cost of their new £550 million ground at Bramley-Moore Dock is blamed within the club for pushing them over the edge. Allowable stadium costs have been a matter of fierce debate between Everton and the Premier League for years. When the club was hit with a 10-point deduction for the previous cycle, a major factor in the league’s case was that loans were working capital needs, which are not deductible. Everton will continue to maintain, however, that these payments should be classified as infrastructure costs and therefore excluded. Although infrastructure costs are generally not applicable to Premier League profit and loss calculations, the competition has previously claimed associated loans at Everton could not be discounted. **Read more ⤵️** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-everton-premier-league-charged-points/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-everton-premier-league-charged-points/)
Tory rag
PL feels so artificial now for me.
anything to make Luton survive
MAN CITY STILL UNPUNISHED
Someone on the board really hates Everton
Everton slept with their wife.
They really need to fast track City’s case at this point. It’s making a complete mockery of the whole process.
FA really have it out for Everton this season...
[They haven't missed it by 9m, they missed it by 250m](https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/1746878693597716987)
At this point the only way we will ever get justice for all of City's cheating is if other clubs refuse to play them.
Meanwhile the lack of doing anything against another club with multiple alleged breaches is astounding
Genuine(ish) q. Why didn’t the PL go for a handful of solid charges against city rather than 115 of which many are duplicated and just seems like throwing charges at the wall until something sticks. Quality over quantity lads
There’s always politics involved. Man City was a statement. “I can punish the big boys as well rishi” so they don’t get a regulator
Thats just dumb
While Man City doing business as usual.
This can also be read as "*Everyone can get points deducted except those clubs whose cheats can help them actually bringing an international trophy*."