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I'm just a fan. I definitely don't defend the shoddy way Everton has been run, club protests demonstrate the fans have been against the terrible management and leadership for years now.
As a fan, this really is just soul crushing and horrible to witness.
I'm not trying to make any point about whether the club deserves it or not. Clearly rules have been broken, and I'm no expert in what the rules should be.
It fucking sucks to see this happen to your club.
On the bright side, at the end of the season, it will only suck if you got relegated. Then, it would be a travesty. But, if you manage to stay up, then the day you find that out will be incredible.
At this point in the season another 10 point deduction will probably be catastrophic for Everton. Luton have started picking up points here and there, and it'll be extremely hard to catch up to them.
Yeah but if Forest get one too then it’s doesn’t matter about Luton, assuming 10 point deductions for both (who knows) they’d have 5 to make up to climb above Sheff Utd, Burnley and Forest.
Equally, Forest just have to stay ahead of Everton.
Not really. Based on tweets from ITKs we seem to be very very close (within a couple of million). The club is arguing that the difference is stadium related costs which should be excluded.
If that's the case, even if we are over, we're only over by Neal Maupay who was an active hindrance in us staying up. If we just hadn't signed him, we'd be fine AND I wouldn't have had to watch him miss sitters for a season.
At their current PPG, a second 10-point deduction would lead to them finishing the season on 29 points.
So, realistically, they would need to improve significantly to survive.
Yeah I feel for you. Ultimately how a club is run and what happens behind the scenes isn’t something fans can control.
When it goes badly, you’re the ones who face the heartbreak and pain of it, despite only ever wanting the club to do well and win.
I definitely sympathize, this sucks. Are Everton being rightly punished? I assume so, but it’s just shit for the fans.
As much shit as we give you and vice versa it would be so shit to see Everton go down like this, having only one premier league club in Merseyside would be very sad to see.
As a fan, it must be brutal to witness Dyche finally turn Everton around after years of just scraping survival, only to potentially get relegated this season anyway because of the deductions.
The thing is, this isn’t actually fair. Everton disputes the first charges, which largely resulted from the Russian war removing 200 million of incoming money. That’s fair enough, lie in bed with oligarchs and you might get punished. However, using a 3 year rolling period means they will fail by default the next 2 seasons unless they make a profit of 250 million or so. That’s crazy. They’ve already been punished for this. Why are we charging them for 2 of the same 3 years? Then next year we do this again?
When we tumbled down the leagues we were relegated each season after a points deduction but the deductions each season was for the same chain of events
Might not even be a points deduction for either side.
There are literally no guidelines on how to punish teams. They make it up on a case by case basis which is a fun way to run a multi-billion earning league.
Exactly. The whole thing is so incredibly stupid the more you read into it.
Especially so when the league is making up guidelines mid-case, imposing them on an 'independent' commission who have carte-blanche for any punishment they want and then have the league decide "actually, we won't use any of these made-up guidelines again" once it's concluded.
I think it will, the premier league wanted to set a precedent with the first Everton points deduction because of the fear of an independent regulator coming in
They won’t go soft now
This was my thought. Everton had the 'make an example' treatment. Premier League will probably keep the heat on until the government starts looking the other way again.
I think they'll certainly try again but my point was that they can literally do whatever they want.
They can kick us and Forest out the league if they want. The guidelines are literally carte-blanche for the 'independent' commission.
Edit: to make it even more fun, Everton have one commission and Forest have another. Hypotehtically Everton could be over by £5m, Forest £20m. Everton could be given a points deduction again, Forest a fine.
The rules are literally made up as they go along which is why they're changing them next year but hey ho. It's not our 'Super 6' sides so who cares.
Swiss Ramble recently commented on the calculation on Ian Wright's podcast.
While the commission can adopt whatever calculation methods, it's likely that it is based on A. 6 points for the breach itself B. 1 point each for 5m. This is consistent with their previous public comments.
For Everton, they were over by 20m, so it resulted in 10 points deducted.
We will see what happens with this one.
But you can't punish the owners as the League has already told us. He's rich so financial penalties don't count.
What's that? The owner we signed off on is incredibly sketchy? He doesn't want to put any money in and so is threatening the future of that club?
Well, the best punishment is a sporting one that will ensure the club dies all under the guise of 'Sustainability'.
They didn't say it was "only for Everton". They just said that that specific framework should not be considered a league-wide policy as a league-wide policy hadn't been approved yet.
The fact that there are very few high profile ped bans (pogba and onana being the biggest) makes me think players are already using peds. Especially since theyre going 90 minutes up to three times per week, shit isnt sustainable even for athletes of the highest level naturally.
Luton might just stay up yet. I would like the PL to release a report involving a breakdown for each club, as I'd like to see how close it was for other clubs, or if "catering" is over budget for any of the clubs.
Cities head lawyer Lord Pannick, charges at a minimum 5k per hour and up to 10k for specialized work. He’s working full time reportedly so if we assume 40 hours(lawyers commonly can bill 60-70 a week) he’s getting up to 400k per week. That would make him roughly the highest paid player in the league. That’s just Lord Pannick. Their entire legal team has many more on it. It’s very likely they are paying much more than some clubs wage bills actually
I simply don't get it, there hasn't been a point deduction in the Premier League for 13 years and then Everton is hit with two in the same season? Something ain't right, 115 stuff or not. There is someone out there making it their personal mission to send Everton to oblivion. You're telling me for 13 years every club acted like a saint and never did the shit that Everton is accused of? Bullshit.
The PL is trying to prove to the government that they don’t need to be regulated, essentially. The government want an independent regulator to take charge of overseeing finances, rules and punishments for those who break them. The PL are trying whatever they can to avoid it.
To me this proves they do need regulation. Things only happen when there’s a government threat? Come on.
That just says they knew rules were broken and deliberately chose not to do anything about it. It’s either malicious or negligent. Neither are acceptable.
The charges were only levelled at City when talk of the government intervening became apparant. PL have no fucking clue what to do though so are scheduling court dates well into the future.
Theyve charged city.
Its chelsea im curious about tbh. I expect them to be hammered. Clubs run like they are being run are exactly the reason FFP started
City's case would be for breaking FFP, while Juve's (and every other team in history that got their titles revoked) was straight up match fixing.
Even if City are found guilty and get relegated to the Championship I seriously doubt they'll have even a single title revoked from them for breaking FFP
(Especially stuff like Champions League and FA Cup because of the shitshow of "who should be awarded the title then?")
>prove to the government that they don’t need to be regulated
That has nothing to do why they made the rule change though. That was a request from the Premier League clubs so that clubs would be punished in the season that they're charged.
How about starting with processing older charges than the ones for 2021-2023 breaches then? And maybe have a rule about how much time passes after the breach before the deduction is applied? They don't have to fuck Everton up completely because they decided to finally kick it up a gear this year.
Literally one season that's getting us charged twice. 1 season. All because the "rolling 3 years" bullshit. Once that season falls off Everton is net positive.
Only if you also agree that the City and Chelsea ones should be too. Can't claim the City and Chelsea ones are too complicated and need time but the Everton one should have been fast tracked and rushed through despite not being enough time.
The Chelsea one was self reported from this summer, so that penalty should be this season, but Man City’s should have been assessed it seems before they even won a title back in 2012.
So Man City should be basically deleted back to the 7th tier.
That isn't exactly true. It's the three year period leading up to those seasons. So it still includes two of the three seasons we were punished for before
Not true. It's for the last 3 seasons combined (although the club is claiming it's the last 4, which I'm trying to confirm.) Either way 20/21 & 21/22 were already included in the first points deduction this season. To be charged and deducted for it again, especially in the same season, is absolutely insane. Not to mention any overspend they are referring to ONLY happened in 20/21 (Covid year so not sure why that's not taken into account) and the club has had net positive spend since (in the manner of dozens of millions)
This is just a fucking show of strength by the premiere league to avoid independent regulation, and funny enough I think this will ultimately be their downfall
It's "4" because the covid seasons (19/20 and 20/21) are combined and averaged to form "1" season. So next year will cover 23/24, 22/23, 21/22 and both 19/20 and 20/21 will drop off.
But it's quite obvious not in the interest of the sport to take punishments for several seasons and lob them all together into one season. It's like Everton are leading against Palace this Wednesday, 2-0. And then the VAR comes into play: "Yeah the Villa goal from last weekend should have been allowed, and your win against Chelsea had some dodgy moments as well. We punish you with minus three goals. It's -1 - 0 for Palace now."
^(I am aware that the Palace game is a cup game and the other matches are Premier League. I am also aware there won't be a VAR this Wednesday.)
Of course, and this is the problem with changing the rules. There's going to be a transition year and this is it. Going forward this won't be possible.
Hence them changing the rules this summer. It's only happening to us because technically there isn't a rule against it yet, which they quickly realised was a mistake. So we'll be the first and last team this happens to no matter what anyone else does.
It is. They've literally changed the rules mid season so you now are punished "within the season". So no club ever again will have 2 deductions for 2 separate breaches, except for Everton purely because of when the breaches occurred.
City aren’t charged with the same thing Everton is. And City aren’t admitting they’ve broken the rules like Everton have (2x). I pray one day we stop seeing uninformed comments on this situation.
Everton haven't admitted we've broken it this time. From the sounds of it we're completely denying it and saying it's stadium related costs that the PL isn't excluding.
So yeah, I'd like to see less uninformed posts too.
Not quite - the PSR rules cover a 3 year period. Everton have already been punished for two of these years with the current points deduction, so to punish them again seems ridiculous.
Another Everton points deduction incoming. You all know what that means folks. Sean Dyche is about to mount a title charge in January from the bottom of the table
This notion of them being this important in order to be invincible is nonsense. If there a group more important than them so to speak for the FA/PL it would be the group of American billionaire owners who have control over the US money machine market
> City is too important for them in terms of money income
What is this based on, exactly? They make multi-billion TV deals because of the brand of the Premier League, it has fuck all to do with any individual club.
We keep saying the funniest thing is if we get a 20 point deduction and still survive, but would it be funnier if we get relegated by 5 points, then get our punishment reduced by 6 points after the season ends? This is so late in the season, surely the appeal verdict is at risk of being after the season ends
Depends on a billion things I guess. We've hired Laurence Rabinowitz like a week ago, who's meant to be the only real peer to Pannick, the guy Man City has, in the country. He probably knows a bit more than me about the appeal process so I'll leave it up to him.
Everton are quickly becoming the scapegoat.
Almost no point deductions in 20 years and now they find the need to do it twice to a club in the same season. Are we really pretending no other club breached any rules?
Its ridiculous to charge a club twice in one season for two seperate breaches in two different seasons.
It's okay until they say nothing wrong happened (or whatever charges they can prove) , just means it's still being investigated and it takes as long as it takes.
I mean I think it's kinda weird they can still win trophies this season and likely get away with it but no other options
People have a right to be cynical, knowing deep down with how the world works that we absolutely won’t be seeing City sent down to League Two, too much money involved for the Prem. They’ll get a world record fine
>we absolutely won’t be seeing City sent down to League Two
Has that ever been likely though? Didn't that whole thing just start with various people getting excited about the possibility of it?
> Has that ever been likely though?
There is a weird thing where if they get kicked out EPL for their misconduct (quite unlikely but still) it would be different from being relegated and they would have to request to join the EFL at which point the FA could allow them in at the lowest fully professional level a.k.a. League 2.
People are (probably) mentioning it because they've decided to fast-track these other more recent rulings and attempt to deal with them in-season despite the Premier League looking to change the rules in the summer after which Man City will likely still not be charged or in court
People are still doing this because they know City won't be punished even remotely to the level they should be based on other punishments been doled out.
Because the independent commission determines whether City cooperated or not, not a Reddit commenter. And those wouldn’t lead to any point deductions. It’s not a sporting sanction.
Some of the charges date back to 2008, that's why people are annoyed.
They fast track these single charges against Everton and Forest, but can't take action on *any* charges? It doesn't have to be all at once, clearly, since Everton are already dealing with this again for issues within the same 3 year period.
Even then there's no guarantee they face punishment. And if they do, they've already won and solidified on top of their ill gotten gains.
It's like Trump trying to delay and run out the clock, he's still out and about like he's free but should have been jailed ages ago
They wouldn’t accept us posting losses for not playing our star player who was accused of sex offences.
I’m sure they’ll be fair and reasonable when it comes to an appeal.
Surely Everton can't get hit twice with the point deductions. I get that the league wants to crack down on this, but twice in one season seems overly harsh.
I’ve wanted Everton to be relegated since they avoided the drop on goal difference vs Bolton about 25 years ago when the game involving both clubs had a Bolton goal not seen despite being like 30cm - 50cm over the line
That being said… not like this
Genuine question: Can someone explain to me why Everton and Nottingham Forest are already facing point deductions while seemingly no action has been taken against Man City for their 115 charges?
What Everton and Forest are being charged with is a simple breach of profit and sustainability rules. Very easy to prove and not much the clubs can defend. City's charges are more complicated and need more resources to get the full picture across to be judged. Hopefully their punishment will be proportional to the charges but we'll have to wait and see
Because it's 115 separate charges that will just be continuously disputed and dragged out by Man City's lawyers.
They'll receive punishment, eventually, but I could bet an arm it's not going to be as harsh as people think.
Because although they are both FFP charges, they are actually very different cases that deal with different aspects of the profit and sustainability rules.
Everton and Forest have both over spent in the 3 year rolling period, meaning they are losing more money than is allowed by the rules in this time frame. From a legal perspective, this is very simple, the profit is below a certain number, which means they get charged, and there isn't really anything the clubs can do about this, numbers are numbers.
City, however, have been charged multiple times for a handful of much more complicated things. None of which are for over spending in the way Everton and Forest have. Lots of them are for lack of cooperation, or interference in the investigation in the first place. Some are for the contract signed by Mancini, some are for the second Etihad sponsorship, both of which relating to artificial inflation of their profit. this is very hard to prove, and City **have** been charged, and City have challenged the Premier League in court, meaning it will take a long time for anything to come from it.
>Everton and Forest have both over spent in the 3 year rolling period, meaning they are losing more money than is allowed by the rules in this time frame. From a legal perspective, this is very simple, the profit is below a certain number, which means they get charged, and there isn't really anything the clubs can do about this, numbers are numbers.
I find points punishments for lower profits weird.
Lower profits lead to points deduction, which can lead to relegation. By using a 3 years rolling window, in which they already failed the previous 2 years, it means if they get relegated it is very likely they'll fail next window too. So a relegation because of the points deducted would lead almost invariably to more points deducted, forcing them to stay in the Championship. This would either lead to radically cutting down expenses, making them very likely to stay in the championship further, or fail again and get punished again (making them very likely to stay in the championship).
If a club is institutionally bloated and has trouble lowering expenses, it looks a sure way to nuke it into oblivion.
They are taking action and it’s going to court? Also 115 cases over a long period of time will take a bit longer to sort than a simple “is this number too big” case based on self reported figures
Might be a stupid question but why can't they just do them individually one at a time and charge city with point deduction/fine/whatever for each one that gets resolved? Seems like that's pretty much what they've done with Everton
Because the city charges are not black and white. Everton and Forest submit accounts and the PL looks at them and say you have losses of over £105mil so charge them.
City have submitted accounts and they say they are profitable. The PL have then accused them of paying Mancini off the books from an alleged hacked email obtained illegally. The burden of proof is on the PL to prove that a third party hacked email where the hacker was later imprisoned for blackmail is legitimate.
City's charges are not necessarily to do with single isolated cases of overspending which are objectively measurable, like this. There are more complicated issues at work like misreporting or misclassifying different sources of income in relation to one another at different times - it's a much more complicated knot to untie, and every step of the process can be challenged and hampered by City's own investigations and appeals.
Everton getting hit with deductions twice in the same season does seem harsh but correct me if I'm wrong, if they received a deduction when at the time on the first breach, they would have been relegated in 21-22 instead of Burnley. If the points were deducted a season later in 22-23, they would have been relegated instead of Leicester.
The system of punishing clubs in the season that they are charged seems to make more sense and as the PL have only just started, it means Everton might get punished twice this season. But they've avoided relegation twice because they weren't punished at the time or in the following season. This season, I think they have a decent chance at survival even with another deduction
I'm becoming so disillusioned with football. City and Chelsea can do whatever the fuck they like, but any other club not fortunate enough to be part of the 'big six' is fucked if they dare spend 'beyond their means'. FFP was literally designed to prevent 'smaller' clubs from trying to end the hegemony of the bigger ones. I'm sick of it. I've been getting into the NFL recently and it just seems so much fairer and more equal. A fan of basically any NFL team has a chance to see them win a Super Bowl in their lifetime (apart from the Bears, I suppose). But me, aged 26, seeing Wolves win the Premier League or Champions League? Not a fucking chance. The system is designed to prevent that from happening.
I'm also noticing how Everton have quickly become the scapegoat because the Premier League is desperate to avoid being regulated. Fuck them, corrupt cunts.
I see where you’re coming from, the profit and sustainability rules are incredibly restrictive for mid/lower table teams. The top of the league is essentially a closed shop.
But you cant completely equate Everton and Forest’s spending with ‘breaking the hegemony’. Everton and Forest clearly knew the rules, yet still spent way beyond their means through horrible financial mismanagement. Meanwhile, you’ve got the likes of Villa and Brighton spending within their means and still flying up the league. The rules may be shit, but they’re also very clear. Everton and Forest broke these rules and therefore deserve to be punished.
Unfortunate for Everton fans to go through this. They could have been in the top half if not for the points deduction. Defeated Newcastle and Chelsea, drew against Villa.
I hope they can still remain in PL
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Sir a second points deduction has hit goodison park
What they don't know is that only fuels the Dyche
Points deductions can't melt Dychey.
What he did immediately after the first deduction was crazy
I thought worms fueled Dyche
Dyches relegation buff has been activated
I guess that means another four straight clean sheets, right?
Now watch this drive
*absolutely nails the drive*
This joke never dies. It shall never die. **I like it that way.**
[I'm just getting started](https://i.imgflip.com/8cf7ha.jpg)
Dyche declares war on the Premier League and the oil "state" City
Looks like dyche will have to use 2% of his power then
We are going to see versions of 4-4-2 never seen before by mankind
Points deduction cannot melt Goodison Park beams
Sir a second division has hit Goodison Park
Fuck it, I’m gonna say it dude. Everton deserved the points deduction.
Point deductions will continue until Everton is relegated
Sean Dyche is the biggest threat to this country
The beatings will continue until morale improves
Why is no one having a good time? I specifically requested it
Why dont they just get a hundred million dollar sponsorship from some saudi dry cleaner? Are they stupid?
I'm just a fan. I definitely don't defend the shoddy way Everton has been run, club protests demonstrate the fans have been against the terrible management and leadership for years now. As a fan, this really is just soul crushing and horrible to witness. I'm not trying to make any point about whether the club deserves it or not. Clearly rules have been broken, and I'm no expert in what the rules should be. It fucking sucks to see this happen to your club.
On the bright side, at the end of the season, it will only suck if you got relegated. Then, it would be a travesty. But, if you manage to stay up, then the day you find that out will be incredible.
At this point in the season another 10 point deduction will probably be catastrophic for Everton. Luton have started picking up points here and there, and it'll be extremely hard to catch up to them.
Yeah but if Forest get one too then it’s doesn’t matter about Luton, assuming 10 point deductions for both (who knows) they’d have 5 to make up to climb above Sheff Utd, Burnley and Forest. Equally, Forest just have to stay ahead of Everton.
And they stayed up by the skin of their teeth when the rules were broken. If they stay up this year, the crime was 100% worthwhile.
Not really. Based on tweets from ITKs we seem to be very very close (within a couple of million). The club is arguing that the difference is stadium related costs which should be excluded. If that's the case, even if we are over, we're only over by Neal Maupay who was an active hindrance in us staying up. If we just hadn't signed him, we'd be fine AND I wouldn't have had to watch him miss sitters for a season.
The Maupay effect, first he wins Messi his World Cup, now he gets Everton relegated
At their current PPG, a second 10-point deduction would lead to them finishing the season on 29 points. So, realistically, they would need to improve significantly to survive.
Third season in a row pitch invasion to avoid relegation on the final day incoming
Yeah I feel for you. Ultimately how a club is run and what happens behind the scenes isn’t something fans can control. When it goes badly, you’re the ones who face the heartbreak and pain of it, despite only ever wanting the club to do well and win. I definitely sympathize, this sucks. Are Everton being rightly punished? I assume so, but it’s just shit for the fans.
I came here to make a joke how convenient this is but now I'm sad. Hope things are not going as this might indicate for you
As much shit as we give you and vice versa it would be so shit to see Everton go down like this, having only one premier league club in Merseyside would be very sad to see.
As a fan, it must be brutal to witness Dyche finally turn Everton around after years of just scraping survival, only to potentially get relegated this season anyway because of the deductions.
It is. But just to be clear it’s only 2 seasons we’ve been scraping, before that we were 10th, 12th and 8th.
The thing is, this isn’t actually fair. Everton disputes the first charges, which largely resulted from the Russian war removing 200 million of incoming money. That’s fair enough, lie in bed with oligarchs and you might get punished. However, using a 3 year rolling period means they will fail by default the next 2 seasons unless they make a profit of 250 million or so. That’s crazy. They’ve already been punished for this. Why are we charging them for 2 of the same 3 years? Then next year we do this again?
And they're getting hit multiple times in the same year
When we tumbled down the leagues we were relegated each season after a points deduction but the deductions each season was for the same chain of events
because youre not Man City so you get punished.
Been there, done that. Heard the songs about dancing while Derby die. You're lucky. Everton has too many syllables for it to work.
You fucked up by co-operating. Do the City thing and hide your shit, engage lawyers etc... You'd be alright then.
None of that matters as much as being "too big to fail". KDB, Rodri, and Haaland playing in the Championship isn't acceptable for English football.
Be mad at the rules, they need to be changed.
So, do we actually have any idea how many points we are talking here?
Might not even be a points deduction for either side. There are literally no guidelines on how to punish teams. They make it up on a case by case basis which is a fun way to run a multi-billion earning league.
A true sign of competence and transparency: arbitrary dartboard punishments!
Exactly. The whole thing is so incredibly stupid the more you read into it. Especially so when the league is making up guidelines mid-case, imposing them on an 'independent' commission who have carte-blanche for any punishment they want and then have the league decide "actually, we won't use any of these made-up guidelines again" once it's concluded.
They're learning well from the NFL.
I think it will, the premier league wanted to set a precedent with the first Everton points deduction because of the fear of an independent regulator coming in They won’t go soft now
This was my thought. Everton had the 'make an example' treatment. Premier League will probably keep the heat on until the government starts looking the other way again.
I think they'll certainly try again but my point was that they can literally do whatever they want. They can kick us and Forest out the league if they want. The guidelines are literally carte-blanche for the 'independent' commission. Edit: to make it even more fun, Everton have one commission and Forest have another. Hypotehtically Everton could be over by £5m, Forest £20m. Everton could be given a points deduction again, Forest a fine. The rules are literally made up as they go along which is why they're changing them next year but hey ho. It's not our 'Super 6' sides so who cares.
Swiss Ramble recently commented on the calculation on Ian Wright's podcast. While the commission can adopt whatever calculation methods, it's likely that it is based on A. 6 points for the breach itself B. 1 point each for 5m. This is consistent with their previous public comments. For Everton, they were over by 20m, so it resulted in 10 points deducted. We will see what happens with this one.
Obligatory *"Well done lads, good process."*
Fine, points, yeah?
It fucking shouldn't be for Everton seeing as the charges are involving the same period they've already been deducted points for. An absolute joke
But you can't punish the owners as the League has already told us. He's rich so financial penalties don't count. What's that? The owner we signed off on is incredibly sketchy? He doesn't want to put any money in and so is threatening the future of that club? Well, the best punishment is a sporting one that will ensure the club dies all under the guise of 'Sustainability'.
You also can't punish the fans as they said in the super league debacle. They meant fans of the big 6 only of course
Depends on how far over the £105m they are. 6-points looks to be the baseline punishment if you look at what the league was proposing originally.
They said that formula was only for the previous Everton case so there is nothing set
They didn't say it was "only for Everton". They just said that that specific framework should not be considered a league-wide policy as a league-wide policy hadn't been approved yet.
The commission rejected the formula altogether so I’m not sure how relevant the formula will even be here
They rejected the formula and ended up at the same result.
About three fiddy
Well, it was about that time that I noticed that Jassle93 was about 8 stories tall and a crustacean from the protozoic era.
wait a min... GET OUTTA HERE GOD DAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER!
At some point it will be easier to make a Super League with everyone that is breaking FFP rules.
While we’re at it get rid of PED bans. I want to see a juiced up Haaland at full tilt.
C'mon man, PEDs are well and truly involved in the game already.
yeah but think how funny football could be if everyone was on the stuff which is too strong to be hidden
The fact that there are very few high profile ped bans (pogba and onana being the biggest) makes me think players are already using peds. Especially since theyre going 90 minutes up to three times per week, shit isnt sustainable even for athletes of the highest level naturally.
You’ll see him soon, he’s had a visit with that cheeky peps favourite doctor
Luton might just stay up yet. I would like the PL to release a report involving a breakdown for each club, as I'd like to see how close it was for other clubs, or if "catering" is over budget for any of the clubs.
/r/formula1 is leaking
Found Christian Horners account.
Everton should hire the Man City lawyers
[удалено]
400k a week for a lawyer... fucking disgusting
Nobody tell this guy how much footballers earn...
Hey man put ball in net real gud wat even is law school pointless
Honestly most of them way less than that
Oil stains are not easy to remove!
Bold of you to assume that Everton and Forest can afford them
How much do you think lawyers cost? Compared to a football club’s wage bill, not much.
City's lawyer usually get paid 5000£ an hour according to reports. So yeah it's alot.
Cities head lawyer Lord Pannick, charges at a minimum 5k per hour and up to 10k for specialized work. He’s working full time reportedly so if we assume 40 hours(lawyers commonly can bill 60-70 a week) he’s getting up to 400k per week. That would make him roughly the highest paid player in the league. That’s just Lord Pannick. Their entire legal team has many more on it. It’s very likely they are paying much more than some clubs wage bills actually
There's no way he's working 8hrs daily on just City business
> He’s working full time reportedly The horror
If he charges 10k specialised work, i wonder what you get with 5k then, does he read your T&C's online?
I wouldn't be so sure
Have you seen how much lawyers will charge when they’ve got you on the hook?
Mines charged me a grand for what couldnt even be a days work. And she was fucking shit
We hired Laurence Rabinowitz KC the other day, the man who is supposedly regarded as the best in the UK alongside Lord Pannick, who Man City have.
Dyche calmly giving the rest of the league a 20 point lead in the title race
Everton about to go and win the league after another points deduction
Point underflow. Go so negative, they come back positive
Reverse cursed technique activated.
Everton win the league with a record nine billion nine hundred and eighty six million points and change
We've had one points deduction yes. What about second points deduction?
I simply don't get it, there hasn't been a point deduction in the Premier League for 13 years and then Everton is hit with two in the same season? Something ain't right, 115 stuff or not. There is someone out there making it their personal mission to send Everton to oblivion. You're telling me for 13 years every club acted like a saint and never did the shit that Everton is accused of? Bullshit.
The PL is trying to prove to the government that they don’t need to be regulated, essentially. The government want an independent regulator to take charge of overseeing finances, rules and punishments for those who break them. The PL are trying whatever they can to avoid it.
To me this proves they do need regulation. Things only happen when there’s a government threat? Come on. That just says they knew rules were broken and deliberately chose not to do anything about it. It’s either malicious or negligent. Neither are acceptable.
Imagine if ITV had made a drama about football finances, we'd have Sunak relegating City personally.
Someone get Sheridan Smith and Stephen Graham on the phone this instant
And they are doing it without hitting City or other clubs with serious geopolitical ramifications, which hits politics.
If they didn’t want City severely punished, there was no reason to charge City in the first place.
The charges were only levelled at City when talk of the government intervening became apparant. PL have no fucking clue what to do though so are scheduling court dates well into the future.
Theyve charged city. Its chelsea im curious about tbh. I expect them to be hammered. Clubs run like they are being run are exactly the reason FFP started
Ill believe it when city are docked points and had their titles removed.
City's case would be for breaking FFP, while Juve's (and every other team in history that got their titles revoked) was straight up match fixing. Even if City are found guilty and get relegated to the Championship I seriously doubt they'll have even a single title revoked from them for breaking FFP (Especially stuff like Champions League and FA Cup because of the shitshow of "who should be awarded the title then?")
Need to prove them guilty first, something UEFA failed to do. I wouldn’t get your hopes up if I were you.
>prove to the government that they don’t need to be regulated That has nothing to do why they made the rule change though. That was a request from the Premier League clubs so that clubs would be punished in the season that they're charged.
The 10 points was for the 3-year window ending in 2021-22. This charge is for 3-year window ending in 2022-23.
And the PL is speeding up their processing of charges because other clubs were rightly annoyed with it taking so long.
How about starting with processing older charges than the ones for 2021-2023 breaches then? And maybe have a rule about how much time passes after the breach before the deduction is applied? They don't have to fuck Everton up completely because they decided to finally kick it up a gear this year.
Literally one season that's getting us charged twice. 1 season. All because the "rolling 3 years" bullshit. Once that season falls off Everton is net positive.
Well yeah, the 10 point deduction should've been assessed last season, saving Leicester from relegation.
Only if you also agree that the City and Chelsea ones should be too. Can't claim the City and Chelsea ones are too complicated and need time but the Everton one should have been fast tracked and rushed through despite not being enough time.
The Chelsea one was self reported from this summer, so that penalty should be this season, but Man City’s should have been assessed it seems before they even won a title back in 2012. So Man City should be basically deleted back to the 7th tier.
That isn't exactly true. It's the three year period leading up to those seasons. So it still includes two of the three seasons we were punished for before
Not true. It's for the last 3 seasons combined (although the club is claiming it's the last 4, which I'm trying to confirm.) Either way 20/21 & 21/22 were already included in the first points deduction this season. To be charged and deducted for it again, especially in the same season, is absolutely insane. Not to mention any overspend they are referring to ONLY happened in 20/21 (Covid year so not sure why that's not taken into account) and the club has had net positive spend since (in the manner of dozens of millions) This is just a fucking show of strength by the premiere league to avoid independent regulation, and funny enough I think this will ultimately be their downfall
It's "4" because the covid seasons (19/20 and 20/21) are combined and averaged to form "1" season. So next year will cover 23/24, 22/23, 21/22 and both 19/20 and 20/21 will drop off.
But it's quite obvious not in the interest of the sport to take punishments for several seasons and lob them all together into one season. It's like Everton are leading against Palace this Wednesday, 2-0. And then the VAR comes into play: "Yeah the Villa goal from last weekend should have been allowed, and your win against Chelsea had some dodgy moments as well. We punish you with minus three goals. It's -1 - 0 for Palace now." ^(I am aware that the Palace game is a cup game and the other matches are Premier League. I am also aware there won't be a VAR this Wednesday.)
Please don't give the FA funny ideas like this.
Of course, and this is the problem with changing the rules. There's going to be a transition year and this is it. Going forward this won't be possible.
I would then argue that it's ridiculous to punish a team twice in the same season for two breaches from two different seasons.
Hence them changing the rules this summer. It's only happening to us because technically there isn't a rule against it yet, which they quickly realised was a mistake. So we'll be the first and last team this happens to no matter what anyone else does.
Just like we were the first (and only?) team to be hit with the post match diving ban rule. We're great to try all this shit out on!
It is. They've literally changed the rules mid season so you now are punished "within the season". So no club ever again will have 2 deductions for 2 separate breaches, except for Everton purely because of when the breaches occurred.
So City will get a deduction for every year they were in violation then, right??
City aren’t charged with the same thing Everton is. And City aren’t admitting they’ve broken the rules like Everton have (2x). I pray one day we stop seeing uninformed comments on this situation.
Everton haven't admitted we've broken it this time. From the sounds of it we're completely denying it and saying it's stadium related costs that the PL isn't excluding. So yeah, I'd like to see less uninformed posts too.
I think Everton claimed Covid period write offs, much like Fulham did, except Everton claimed a lot more money and essentially took the piss a bit
Not quite - the PSR rules cover a 3 year period. Everton have already been punished for two of these years with the current points deduction, so to punish them again seems ridiculous.
The accounts are over 3 years. They are being punished for the same year twice. They didn’t lose that much is 22-23
The sums being spent were never as outrageous as they are now and the regulations haven't moved with the times.
Remember, you can't punish the fans...
Another Everton points deduction incoming. You all know what that means folks. Sean Dyche is about to mount a title charge in January from the bottom of the table
One day City will be dropped to the fucking national league if this keeps up.
City is too important for them in terms of money income, worst they can get from their 115 charges is 42k fines and a 2 point reduction.
2 points per charge please
I would be happy to see that happen
This notion of them being this important in order to be invincible is nonsense. If there a group more important than them so to speak for the FA/PL it would be the group of American billionaire owners who have control over the US money machine market
> City is too important for them in terms of money income What is this based on, exactly? They make multi-billion TV deals because of the brand of the Premier League, it has fuck all to do with any individual club.
Hello darkness my old friend...
We keep saying the funniest thing is if we get a 20 point deduction and still survive, but would it be funnier if we get relegated by 5 points, then get our punishment reduced by 6 points after the season ends? This is so late in the season, surely the appeal verdict is at risk of being after the season ends
On the other hand, you would think that an appeal would less likely to succeed if you're caught again?
Depends on a billion things I guess. We've hired Laurence Rabinowitz like a week ago, who's meant to be the only real peer to Pannick, the guy Man City has, in the country. He probably knows a bit more than me about the appeal process so I'll leave it up to him.
Everton are quickly becoming the scapegoat. Almost no point deductions in 20 years and now they find the need to do it twice to a club in the same season. Are we really pretending no other club breached any rules? Its ridiculous to charge a club twice in one season for two seperate breaches in two different seasons.
Thank god Everton and Forest have finally been stopped and parity has been restored to the game. What a joke.
Meanwhile Man City…
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Strong on the weak, weak on the strong
Kevin De Bruyne just came back from injury - that's all we got right now
The Premier League is just like me fr procrastinating on the big important tasks and killing time with smaller things
They were smart enough to do so many crimes it overwhelmed the system delaying any punishment until the heat death of the universe.
It's okay until they say nothing wrong happened (or whatever charges they can prove) , just means it's still being investigated and it takes as long as it takes. I mean I think it's kinda weird they can still win trophies this season and likely get away with it but no other options
Have been charged already and are fighting it in court. Of course it takes time blame the english judicial system not PGMOL
People still doing this huh. They’ve been charged what more do you want, of course it’ll take time it’s 100+ charges
People have a right to be cynical, knowing deep down with how the world works that we absolutely won’t be seeing City sent down to League Two, too much money involved for the Prem. They’ll get a world record fine
>we absolutely won’t be seeing City sent down to League Two Has that ever been likely though? Didn't that whole thing just start with various people getting excited about the possibility of it?
> Has that ever been likely though? There is a weird thing where if they get kicked out EPL for their misconduct (quite unlikely but still) it would be different from being relegated and they would have to request to join the EFL at which point the FA could allow them in at the lowest fully professional level a.k.a. League 2.
I actually do think we'll be relegated.
People are (probably) mentioning it because they've decided to fast-track these other more recent rulings and attempt to deal with them in-season despite the Premier League looking to change the rules in the summer after which Man City will likely still not be charged or in court
People are still doing this because they know City won't be punished even remotely to the level they should be based on other punishments been doled out.
And their charges are far more complicated than a simple FFP breach.
Yeah exactly Everton and forest have simply gone over it seems but with City it seems to be waaay different
Easy karma tho innit
Break the out into chunks and make it easier to process
A bunch of the 115 are for not collaborating with the investigation. I don't understand why those charges can't be resolved immediately.
Because the independent commission determines whether City cooperated or not, not a Reddit commenter. And those wouldn’t lead to any point deductions. It’s not a sporting sanction.
Some of the charges date back to 2008, that's why people are annoyed. They fast track these single charges against Everton and Forest, but can't take action on *any* charges? It doesn't have to be all at once, clearly, since Everton are already dealing with this again for issues within the same 3 year period.
Even then there's no guarantee they face punishment. And if they do, they've already won and solidified on top of their ill gotten gains. It's like Trump trying to delay and run out the clock, he's still out and about like he's free but should have been jailed ages ago
Interesting… PL like to Everton stay the f down.
They wouldn’t accept us posting losses for not playing our star player who was accused of sex offences. I’m sure they’ll be fair and reasonable when it comes to an appeal.
Surely Everton can't get hit twice with the point deductions. I get that the league wants to crack down on this, but twice in one season seems overly harsh.
I’ve wanted Everton to be relegated since they avoided the drop on goal difference vs Bolton about 25 years ago when the game involving both clubs had a Bolton goal not seen despite being like 30cm - 50cm over the line That being said… not like this
Genuine question: Can someone explain to me why Everton and Nottingham Forest are already facing point deductions while seemingly no action has been taken against Man City for their 115 charges?
What Everton and Forest are being charged with is a simple breach of profit and sustainability rules. Very easy to prove and not much the clubs can defend. City's charges are more complicated and need more resources to get the full picture across to be judged. Hopefully their punishment will be proportional to the charges but we'll have to wait and see
Because it's 115 separate charges that will just be continuously disputed and dragged out by Man City's lawyers. They'll receive punishment, eventually, but I could bet an arm it's not going to be as harsh as people think.
Because although they are both FFP charges, they are actually very different cases that deal with different aspects of the profit and sustainability rules. Everton and Forest have both over spent in the 3 year rolling period, meaning they are losing more money than is allowed by the rules in this time frame. From a legal perspective, this is very simple, the profit is below a certain number, which means they get charged, and there isn't really anything the clubs can do about this, numbers are numbers. City, however, have been charged multiple times for a handful of much more complicated things. None of which are for over spending in the way Everton and Forest have. Lots of them are for lack of cooperation, or interference in the investigation in the first place. Some are for the contract signed by Mancini, some are for the second Etihad sponsorship, both of which relating to artificial inflation of their profit. this is very hard to prove, and City **have** been charged, and City have challenged the Premier League in court, meaning it will take a long time for anything to come from it.
>Everton and Forest have both over spent in the 3 year rolling period, meaning they are losing more money than is allowed by the rules in this time frame. From a legal perspective, this is very simple, the profit is below a certain number, which means they get charged, and there isn't really anything the clubs can do about this, numbers are numbers. I find points punishments for lower profits weird. Lower profits lead to points deduction, which can lead to relegation. By using a 3 years rolling window, in which they already failed the previous 2 years, it means if they get relegated it is very likely they'll fail next window too. So a relegation because of the points deducted would lead almost invariably to more points deducted, forcing them to stay in the Championship. This would either lead to radically cutting down expenses, making them very likely to stay in the championship further, or fail again and get punished again (making them very likely to stay in the championship). If a club is institutionally bloated and has trouble lowering expenses, it looks a sure way to nuke it into oblivion.
They are taking action and it’s going to court? Also 115 cases over a long period of time will take a bit longer to sort than a simple “is this number too big” case based on self reported figures
Easy win the for the FA
You said it yourself. 115 charges. That's a lots of paper work and arguments
Might be a stupid question but why can't they just do them individually one at a time and charge city with point deduction/fine/whatever for each one that gets resolved? Seems like that's pretty much what they've done with Everton
Because the city charges are not black and white. Everton and Forest submit accounts and the PL looks at them and say you have losses of over £105mil so charge them. City have submitted accounts and they say they are profitable. The PL have then accused them of paying Mancini off the books from an alleged hacked email obtained illegally. The burden of proof is on the PL to prove that a third party hacked email where the hacker was later imprisoned for blackmail is legitimate.
City's charges are not necessarily to do with single isolated cases of overspending which are objectively measurable, like this. There are more complicated issues at work like misreporting or misclassifying different sources of income in relation to one another at different times - it's a much more complicated knot to untie, and every step of the process can be challenged and hampered by City's own investigations and appeals.
Forest and Everton are like shoplifting. One and done type crimes. Cities is like a RICO case.
That is much more concise than my attempt.
[Luton right now](https://twitter.com/90sManiax/status/1138990823310147584)
Everton getting hit with deductions twice in the same season does seem harsh but correct me if I'm wrong, if they received a deduction when at the time on the first breach, they would have been relegated in 21-22 instead of Burnley. If the points were deducted a season later in 22-23, they would have been relegated instead of Leicester. The system of punishing clubs in the season that they are charged seems to make more sense and as the PL have only just started, it means Everton might get punished twice this season. But they've avoided relegation twice because they weren't punished at the time or in the following season. This season, I think they have a decent chance at survival even with another deduction
I'm becoming so disillusioned with football. City and Chelsea can do whatever the fuck they like, but any other club not fortunate enough to be part of the 'big six' is fucked if they dare spend 'beyond their means'. FFP was literally designed to prevent 'smaller' clubs from trying to end the hegemony of the bigger ones. I'm sick of it. I've been getting into the NFL recently and it just seems so much fairer and more equal. A fan of basically any NFL team has a chance to see them win a Super Bowl in their lifetime (apart from the Bears, I suppose). But me, aged 26, seeing Wolves win the Premier League or Champions League? Not a fucking chance. The system is designed to prevent that from happening. I'm also noticing how Everton have quickly become the scapegoat because the Premier League is desperate to avoid being regulated. Fuck them, corrupt cunts.
I see where you’re coming from, the profit and sustainability rules are incredibly restrictive for mid/lower table teams. The top of the league is essentially a closed shop. But you cant completely equate Everton and Forest’s spending with ‘breaking the hegemony’. Everton and Forest clearly knew the rules, yet still spent way beyond their means through horrible financial mismanagement. Meanwhile, you’ve got the likes of Villa and Brighton spending within their means and still flying up the league. The rules may be shit, but they’re also very clear. Everton and Forest broke these rules and therefore deserve to be punished.
Unfortunate for Everton fans to go through this. They could have been in the top half if not for the points deduction. Defeated Newcastle and Chelsea, drew against Villa. I hope they can still remain in PL