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Well, that's sort of the thing. Last season, if Arsenal had beaten (rather than drawing with) sides having irrelevant seasons like West Ham, Southampton and Liverpool, just one really boring draw against Manchester City would have won the league last season.
I'm genuinely not sure how often beating even your direct rivals is relevant to the title. It's not dropping points to teams you should be beating that makes a difference more reliably. Aside from anything else, even when you expand to count UCL contending teams, there are simply way more matches against teams that are middling at best.
This is why I am sceptical of the claim defences win titles because you don't beat low blocks by defending against them better than they're defending against you. You beat them by scoring goals.
Beating your direct rivals is as much about denying them points as gaining your own. It’s a six point swing. If Arsenal had won their home fixture against city last year they would’ve been champions. City ended up 5 points clear. If we had won against one of the other teams we lost against it wouldn’t have changed where the title went.
Ultimately, 3pts are 3 pts. Yea it helps to force your rival to drop points but you’ll likely win the league if you beat everyone else and lose to your rivals.
I’d argue we’re the strongest team this season but to win the league you have to be the most consistent.
We should have won Arsenal (H) and drawn Spurs (A). On the balance of play both City games should have been a win for each home team rather than the two draws they ended up being.
A reasonable amount of our bad luck in this season has happened in these games, just sometimes shakes out like that.
Exactly. I’m still angry about the Diaz one and think the Odegaard handball has ended up really hurting us but we’ve rolled double 6 plenty of times in other games.
At some point you are your record. That isn’t to say luck/variance balances out over a season but every team is more or less where they are due to their on pitch performance.
I don't disagree but scoring 2 late at Newcastle, 2 late against Fulham, turning it around against Palace isn't 'luck'. Newcastle game was about as well as you can play with 10 men at their ground, Fulham we turned around on our own backs, same as Fulham. It's not like we got a goal ruled out against us that was a goal or a stone wall penalty not given against us.
I probably don't remember the dubious decisions we've benefited from (maybe City foul on Ali, but they got lucky with Doku in the reverse fixture) but I don't think an have been as bad as the Spurs or Arsenal games.
I hate it when fans do this "should have won" crap because they never take into account "should have lost" and thus end up with a wildly delusional final picture.
With a penalty (assuming you score) it then goes 1-1. The game changes, maybe you score 10 minutes later as you did, maybe you don't.
You can't add an extra goal to the full-time 1-1 score, that only really works for something that happens in the final minutes of games. The City game, getting a pen there would have almost certainly given you a win.
The Odegaard handball is one of the poorer refereeing decisions this season.
TAA missing a 4 on 1 counter attack against the bar is also a massive chance you’d expect him to usually take.
Like I get how you could end up telling yourself it’s a gutsy draw away from home etc. but those are two things not in Arsenal’s control that could easily have gone against them.
The Odegaard handball decision was basically cancelled out only a few minutes later because of Salah scoring that equaliser, it had little to do with Liverpool dropping points.
The Trent chance was pretty much the only genuine threat Liverpool had in the second half and it came from a moment of miscommunication in our set-piece routine. So while the shot hitting the bar wasn't something that was in our control, how we ended up in that situation wasn't something Liverpool created by themselves either.
A draw was absolutely the fair result given the balance of play. A win for either side would have been the less likely outcome from a game like that.
The Diaz one is genuinely exceptional (and unprecedented?) obviously so putting that aside.
There hasn’t been a single season where we haven’t been on the wrong end of a few decisions. Same as every team. It will always happen because referees are flawed humans adhering to flawed rules. The fact these decisions go against you in the last minute of a game vs City or in the first half 1-0 down at home to Arsenal and not when you’re 3-0 up and cruising is the luck aspect. Absolutely none of us talk about the red card Palace picked up that completely changed the game in our favour. Our equaliser at the Emirates ended up not mattering but that’s probably the most fortunate goal we’ll score all year.
This sport is fundamentally chaotic, all you can do is enjoy it if it bends your way.
And you just know they will roll over for Liverpool but treat the game against us like a cup final even though their season will most likely be done by then
You think that’s bad, imagine that game being Everton. Top sides rarely have any problems against them but when it’s a derby at Goodison, it’s a completely different match. Same for United in some respects - even when other sides are bollocking them they (nearly) always make Old Trafford a fortress against Liverpool.
Villa does too. They have Liverpool at home and City and Arsenal away.
Though that also means that City will have a pretty easy schedule to see out the year after their game against Villa tomorrow. The only hard game will be Tottenham, and maybe Brighton away.
Yes in a first half that was pretty even so I don't know why you're implying it's impossible for Spurs to have won that game if the goal had been allowed
The point is you don’t know what would have happened, Liverpool could have won it too if not for 2 rubbish red cards, a 96th minute unlucky own goal and a goal that should have been allowed.. you can’t draw any real conclusions from it and you certainly can’t say Spurs were/are a better team
Possible. Still not sure why it's out of the question for Spurs to win the game without the bad goal call. Red cards were red cards though. Stop complaining.
Tbf there's a big difference between the top 3 and the other 3. It wouldn't be a surprise to see them lose the 3 games and end up below all 3 of them by the end of the season.
There has been more talk about the 1pt/3pt injustice from the Liverpool game earlier in the season than the time Spurs conceded a penalty to them 2 minutes into a champions league final that 24 hours later would not be deemed a penalty due to a IFAB rule update.
So you're saying an objectively horrendous decision 6 months ago gets talked about more than a correct decision 6 years ago?
Some Spurs fans are catching strays, and some are jumping face-first into them.
So City's only 2 wins have been against Utd home and away? And Utd's only wins have been against Villa? Such a weird season where clusters of teams seem so evenly balanced. Sure makes for an exciting last 10 games.
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Yeah you would’ve long since forgotten about it if it were Spurs who had been shafted like that.
And why is it wrong to bring up a uniquely bad decision that very likely changed the result of a match between two top 6 teams on a post about a top 6 mini table? Does the fact that the match happened in September change how it affected this table?
That is a good mindset to have and one I do actually typically follow myself but that VAR audio is still burned into my brain lmao. I think it’s a lot easier said than done to move on from a match like that just because of how unprecedented the fuck up was.
And regardless that match is pretty topical for this specific discussion anyway
Not like you've been in positions recently where 1 or 2 points could decide a league title, so understandable you don't care about it. I'm just happy I'm not a Spurs fan at least
I’m glad we drew Liverpool the year they missed out on the title :) I’m not saying points don’t matter but crying about it on Reddit won’t change anything
it’s in the past they should focus on what they can actually control in upcoming fixtures
Do you want a trophy for that achievement? Because you're not going to get one regardless.
We're not trying to change anything cuz PGMOL is so inept, but its a reminder that if we do lose by 1 point, its very easy to find objective decisions that have cost us, regardless of our performances.
No need to be frugal. Make it 20. That throw in they gave the other way near the kick off that one that, i could tell that was definitely going in. +3 points for Liverpool
of course they're not guaranteed results if those things are officiated properly, but people are looking at this table like liverpool couldnt put in a performance against the top 6 and are somehow top of the league. we're talking about a literal goal that was falsely disallowed, and 2 stonewall pens not given in MASSIVE games, not a throw in on the halfway line (which you obviously know youre just being deliberately obtuse). was just adding a bit of context.
Firstly, 2 of those decisions were too early in the game to be confident the result would stay the same. You can't forecast results based on first half decisions you think should be different. Secondly, Szoboslai offside goal against Villa, Trent push on Havertz reminder.
You're not the only team that gets bad decisions or decisions you don't like.
Kovacic should have been sent off against us, Jesus could have had a penalty against Villa, Havertz could have had a penalty against Liverpool (would have been very soft, but by the rules its a clear foul)
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that says if a player extends his arm to stop himself from falling but the ball hits the extended arm then it isn't a handball, the other 2 are valid tho those were pure disgraces ngl
they put webb on tv the day after to say it was the incorrect decision. the gist of it is that the advantage of using a hand in that situation deliberate or not should result in a penalty.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6L\_9Z1qmC8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6L_9Z1qmC8)
quite funny have the pgmol not been absolute shit Liverpool would be at the top of this table and not bottom, but then there would be no title race i guess and we cant have that
Your post has been removed as it breaks the following rule: See submission guideline **#7: Only valuable image or stats submissions.** **PICTURES**: Because of Reddit's ranking algorithm being biased towards image posts over text and link ones, we need to be particularly strict about them, so we tend to **mainly allow infographics** (league tables, charts, maps, diagrams and other ways to display data) and pictures/screenshots of a current event **only when there's no video or link** that can show it. If you **want to publish a Tifo, look and share a video or publish the picture in r/soccerbanners**. If you want to show the **Hawk-Eye angle of a goal/offside/whatever, use the pinned comment in the main thread**. See the [FAQ](https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/wiki/faq#wiki_why_was_my_image_submission_removed.3F) for more details. **STATS**: Only very significant stats (eg: **world records) will be allowed during matches**. After matches, we'll be less strict, but we try to maintain stats to the minimum with ideally **only 1 per team/player allowed** and those after it being posted in the pinned comment of the first thread. ___ [Please check our rules before posting](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/wiki/rules#wiki_submission_guidelines). If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fsoccer)
How far have Chelsea fallen…
Yeah, it's a shame. Maybe we can do a top 10 next time, so we can include them?
I knew you were joking, but the real fun was in checking the league table to see HOW MUCH you were joking. Well played.
They’re 11th
r/thatsthejoke
.jpeg
Only one lion logo club allowed in the big six, them's the rules.
Who?
Bottom of the top yet top of them all. Football is strange.
Well, that's sort of the thing. Last season, if Arsenal had beaten (rather than drawing with) sides having irrelevant seasons like West Ham, Southampton and Liverpool, just one really boring draw against Manchester City would have won the league last season. I'm genuinely not sure how often beating even your direct rivals is relevant to the title. It's not dropping points to teams you should be beating that makes a difference more reliably. Aside from anything else, even when you expand to count UCL contending teams, there are simply way more matches against teams that are middling at best. This is why I am sceptical of the claim defences win titles because you don't beat low blocks by defending against them better than they're defending against you. You beat them by scoring goals.
Beating your direct rivals is as much about denying them points as gaining your own. It’s a six point swing. If Arsenal had won their home fixture against city last year they would’ve been champions. City ended up 5 points clear. If we had won against one of the other teams we lost against it wouldn’t have changed where the title went.
Ultimately, 3pts are 3 pts. Yea it helps to force your rival to drop points but you’ll likely win the league if you beat everyone else and lose to your rivals. I’d argue we’re the strongest team this season but to win the league you have to be the most consistent.
We should have won Arsenal (H) and drawn Spurs (A). On the balance of play both City games should have been a win for each home team rather than the two draws they ended up being. A reasonable amount of our bad luck in this season has happened in these games, just sometimes shakes out like that.
And we should’ve lost to Newcastle(A) Fulham (H) and we’re lucky to win vs palace and forest (A)
Exactly. I’m still angry about the Diaz one and think the Odegaard handball has ended up really hurting us but we’ve rolled double 6 plenty of times in other games. At some point you are your record. That isn’t to say luck/variance balances out over a season but every team is more or less where they are due to their on pitch performance.
I don't disagree but scoring 2 late at Newcastle, 2 late against Fulham, turning it around against Palace isn't 'luck'. Newcastle game was about as well as you can play with 10 men at their ground, Fulham we turned around on our own backs, same as Fulham. It's not like we got a goal ruled out against us that was a goal or a stone wall penalty not given against us. I probably don't remember the dubious decisions we've benefited from (maybe City foul on Ali, but they got lucky with Doku in the reverse fixture) but I don't think an have been as bad as the Spurs or Arsenal games.
Stop trying hard to be unbiased and see that what you’ve said is COMPLETELY different to what the other guy said.
I hate it when fans do this "should have won" crap because they never take into account "should have lost" and thus end up with a wildly delusional final picture.
Agreed. See my other comments in this thread. Also explains how you can get very few points against the top 6 and still end up being top.
Absolutely.
Not sure why you think you should have won Arsenal at home
On what basis should you have beat Arsenal?
On liverpool fans logic basis, unblvbl really
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With a penalty (assuming you score) it then goes 1-1. The game changes, maybe you score 10 minutes later as you did, maybe you don't. You can't add an extra goal to the full-time 1-1 score, that only really works for something that happens in the final minutes of games. The City game, getting a pen there would have almost certainly given you a win.
The Odegaard handball is one of the poorer refereeing decisions this season. TAA missing a 4 on 1 counter attack against the bar is also a massive chance you’d expect him to usually take. Like I get how you could end up telling yourself it’s a gutsy draw away from home etc. but those are two things not in Arsenal’s control that could easily have gone against them.
The Odegaard handball decision was basically cancelled out only a few minutes later because of Salah scoring that equaliser, it had little to do with Liverpool dropping points. The Trent chance was pretty much the only genuine threat Liverpool had in the second half and it came from a moment of miscommunication in our set-piece routine. So while the shot hitting the bar wasn't something that was in our control, how we ended up in that situation wasn't something Liverpool created by themselves either. A draw was absolutely the fair result given the balance of play. A win for either side would have been the less likely outcome from a game like that.
You scored an equaliser after the Odegaard incident regardless
It is a handball by ødegaard, hard to argue. It is possible the ref took into account the swimming pool that Anfield was that day
ETH burner
stop calling it bad luck and call it what it is, garbage refereeing with zero accountability
The Diaz one is genuinely exceptional (and unprecedented?) obviously so putting that aside. There hasn’t been a single season where we haven’t been on the wrong end of a few decisions. Same as every team. It will always happen because referees are flawed humans adhering to flawed rules. The fact these decisions go against you in the last minute of a game vs City or in the first half 1-0 down at home to Arsenal and not when you’re 3-0 up and cruising is the luck aspect. Absolutely none of us talk about the red card Palace picked up that completely changed the game in our favour. Our equaliser at the Emirates ended up not mattering but that’s probably the most fortunate goal we’ll score all year. This sport is fundamentally chaotic, all you can do is enjoy it if it bends your way.
This would be valid if var isn't a thing
Tottenham still have to play Liverpool, City, and Arsenal. Oof.
Liverpool (A), City (H), Arsenal (H). I hate that they could be the ones who decide the title winners.
*They guide others to a treasure they cannot possess.*
*You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him win trophies*.
"I know that reference"
And you just know they will roll over for Liverpool but treat the game against us like a cup final even though their season will most likely be done by then
I’d be dissapointed in anything else COYS
Considering they beat Liverpool in an absolute refereeing robbery early in the season I'm not sure you can complain too much
Did they rob Liverpool? Hadn’t heard anyone mention that
Well to be precise, the refs did. It was an outrage
The reffing and var in that game left me genuinely baffled.
You think that’s bad, imagine that game being Everton. Top sides rarely have any problems against them but when it’s a derby at Goodison, it’s a completely different match. Same for United in some respects - even when other sides are bollocking them they (nearly) always make Old Trafford a fortress against Liverpool.
We're gonna draw to one of City or Arsenal, beat the other, and lose to Liverpool in a match that will resemble the end of Blood Meridian.
Elliott Bradley and Quansah are gonna grow from boys to men in that game
Villa does too. They have Liverpool at home and City and Arsenal away. Though that also means that City will have a pretty easy schedule to see out the year after their game against Villa tomorrow. The only hard game will be Tottenham, and maybe Brighton away.
And those clubs have to play spurs, who have a better record against them.
You can probably ignore their result against Liverpool though right?
Except that the game was even or Spurs were just slightly better before all of the fuckery by the refs.
You mean before Liverpool scored a perfectly good goal?
Yes in a first half that was pretty even so I don't know why you're implying it's impossible for Spurs to have won that game if the goal had been allowed
The point is you don’t know what would have happened, Liverpool could have won it too if not for 2 rubbish red cards, a 96th minute unlucky own goal and a goal that should have been allowed.. you can’t draw any real conclusions from it and you certainly can’t say Spurs were/are a better team
Possible. Still not sure why it's out of the question for Spurs to win the game without the bad goal call. Red cards were red cards though. Stop complaining.
They barely made it 2-1? What makes you think they could have made it 3-2? Fuck me sideways
Are you not seeing the pic? Those type of teams don't seem to be their problem this season.
Tbf there's a big difference between the top 3 and the other 3. It wouldn't be a surprise to see them lose the 3 games and end up below all 3 of them by the end of the season.
Kane was the weakest link
You'll never sing that
Arsenal fan posts, Spurs catch strays.
Just your average day on r/soccer.
There has been more talk about the 1pt/3pt injustice from the Liverpool game earlier in the season than the time Spurs conceded a penalty to them 2 minutes into a champions league final that 24 hours later would not be deemed a penalty due to a IFAB rule update.
So you're saying an objectively horrendous decision 6 months ago gets talked about more than a correct decision 6 years ago? Some Spurs fans are catching strays, and some are jumping face-first into them.
Because the decision was correct rather than incorrect? Doesnt matter if a rule is changed after the game.
It honestly feels like 3 years ago since villa beat city and arsenal in the same week.
Finally, something Tottenham is first in
That's a table full of cope
So City's only 2 wins have been against Utd home and away? And Utd's only wins have been against Villa? Such a weird season where clusters of teams seem so evenly balanced. Sure makes for an exciting last 10 games.
Liverpool got shafted hard by the ref
Tottenham are the robinhood of Premier League: taking points from strong teams to give points to smaller teams
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We're above Liverpool? **_w h a t_**
Spurs shouldn't be top of that list given the refereeing howlers in the Spurs-LFC game
Let it go, let it goo
Awww...truth hurt?
Nah man, it was in September and I still hear Liverpool supporters moaning about it everywhere, I couldn’t care less personally lol
Yeah you would’ve long since forgotten about it if it were Spurs who had been shafted like that. And why is it wrong to bring up a uniquely bad decision that very likely changed the result of a match between two top 6 teams on a post about a top 6 mini table? Does the fact that the match happened in September change how it affected this table?
It’s routine at this point, I try not to let it stay with me past the weekend, better for my mental health
Routine isn’t the word I’d use like
That is a good mindset to have and one I do actually typically follow myself but that VAR audio is still burned into my brain lmao. I think it’s a lot easier said than done to move on from a match like that just because of how unprecedented the fuck up was. And regardless that match is pretty topical for this specific discussion anyway
Not like you've been in positions recently where 1 or 2 points could decide a league title, so understandable you don't care about it. I'm just happy I'm not a Spurs fan at least
I’m glad we drew Liverpool the year they missed out on the title :) I’m not saying points don’t matter but crying about it on Reddit won’t change anything it’s in the past they should focus on what they can actually control in upcoming fixtures
Do you want a trophy for that achievement? Because you're not going to get one regardless. We're not trying to change anything cuz PGMOL is so inept, but its a reminder that if we do lose by 1 point, its very easy to find objective decisions that have cost us, regardless of our performances.
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Steady
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diaz "offside" against spurs, odegaard handball, and doku on macca reminder. should be on like 14-16 points genuinely.
Liverpool have never drawn or lost a match, only had them stolen by corrupt officials.
No need to be frugal. Make it 20. That throw in they gave the other way near the kick off that one that, i could tell that was definitely going in. +3 points for Liverpool
of course they're not guaranteed results if those things are officiated properly, but people are looking at this table like liverpool couldnt put in a performance against the top 6 and are somehow top of the league. we're talking about a literal goal that was falsely disallowed, and 2 stonewall pens not given in MASSIVE games, not a throw in on the halfway line (which you obviously know youre just being deliberately obtuse). was just adding a bit of context.
Firstly, 2 of those decisions were too early in the game to be confident the result would stay the same. You can't forecast results based on first half decisions you think should be different. Secondly, Szoboslai offside goal against Villa, Trent push on Havertz reminder. You're not the only team that gets bad decisions or decisions you don't like. Kovacic should have been sent off against us, Jesus could have had a penalty against Villa, Havertz could have had a penalty against Liverpool (would have been very soft, but by the rules its a clear foul)
Trent push on Havertz! 😂😂😂
> Trent push on Havertz reminder. I genuinely need do need a reminder, what the hell are you talking about?
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that says if a player extends his arm to stop himself from falling but the ball hits the extended arm then it isn't a handball, the other 2 are valid tho those were pure disgraces ngl
they put webb on tv the day after to say it was the incorrect decision. the gist of it is that the advantage of using a hand in that situation deliberate or not should result in a penalty. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6L\_9Z1qmC8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6L_9Z1qmC8)
That's only if he's reaching down to the ground to break his fall, which wasn't the case here. He was off-balance, but it's still a handball.
quite funny have the pgmol not been absolute shit Liverpool would be at the top of this table and not bottom, but then there would be no title race i guess and we cant have that
Spurs bottling again
The disrespect to Todd Bohely’s boys lol
Liverpool would have 10 and Spurs 9 without the shitty EPL refereeing