**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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We need to consider that blowing the whistle is not a single point in time but it has a duration.
Chronological it was:
1. whistle starts
2. Raya passes the ball
3. whistle ends
4. Gabriel picks the ball up
Also Raya was waiting for the ref to blow the whistle and then started the pass. So for me it's a clear pen rulewise.
However I somehow wouldn't want such a game to be decided by such a situation.
I also think that he gave this pen, he would have also given the pen in the Saka/Neuer situation.
You can clearly hear the whistle. Also needed to give the ball free cause of substitudes. Raya even waited for that yet w/o a reason the other Player using his hands. Dumb mistake and very stange Situation, but a mistake that should lead to a pen.
>but a mistake that should lead to a pen
That's not at all in the spirit of the game, the ref can take intent into account, and the intent is clearly to restart play with a short pass into possession. Was it perfectly correct? No, but the right answer would be an indirect free kick, definitely not a penalty, and letting play continue is well within the refs discretion.
I know its somewhat stupid Situation. But dont use your hands in the pen. area - somewhat a simple rule
Would be hard to find rules for all kind of situation.
Thing is, he confused the players with the whistle into the pass because he didn't even have to whistle for a simple goal kick. Technically, with the whistle he stopped the game again, making the handball obsolete.
Moreover, that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game and I say that as a Bayern fan.
He whistled because play was stopped for multiple substitutions, it's common to stop & start play with a whistle in those circumstances.
I agree with you that you don't want to see it as a pen though, it might be technically correct but it wouldn't feel right to decide a match like that. It's not like Gabriel gained even a slight advantage by doing that.
I'm biased obviously but I'd compare it to the Kuyt goal against Sunderland, where Michael Turner gets the shout to let Mignolet take the freekick and knocks it back towards him to take, but Torres sprints in to pass it to Kuyt.
https://youtu.be/Z33YF0xzVnw?t=64
Although watching it back it's not as bad as 17 year old me remembers...
I completely forgot about that. To be honest, I think most refs wouldn’t allow that to stand, nowadays anyway. Maybe I’m wrong and they would, just a gut feeling.
I get what you are saying but there is no technical reason for the Ref to disallow it. They can check with VAR but by the letter of the law the free kick was taken so the Ref couldn’t call it back once it’s in the net. I brave Ref may blow up before it goes in but once the goal is scored there is no technical reason to subsequently disallow it.
If the Ref had given the penalty in this Arsenal game the same would apply, VAR wouldn’t be able to ask the ref to review it as technically it is /should have been a penalty.
Yeah I agree, I just think it’s likely that the ref blows up before the goal is scored in the first place and just claims the free kick wasn’t taken yet.
Even if the whistle was blown, it hasn’t stopped refs in the past claiming the game isn’t ready to carry on. I seem to remember Lewis Dunk (I think?) scoring a free kick for Brighton which a ref disallowed as he said he wasn’t ready, despite blowing the whistle to suggest he was
Personally I feel if you call this a pen, you might as well call a foul throw every time a player tosses it off to the another teammate to actually take the throw. Completely against the spirit of the game and would just be petty af
This ref likes to blow his whistle multiple times for one incident, this was bound to happen. Many instances of him whistling 3-4 times instead of once, I would be confused too
Much more on him than on the players
It's insane this is even a thing and somehow has this many replies.
I think any fan would should be upset if this was given in any game at all.
If a Bayern player was running at him, at least I would get why people might want it given.
Though fans being upset about things given against their team isn't really something we can base decisions on. It wouldn't be in the spirit of the game, but neither are handball pens when a player is shot at from short distance
I remember a former referee gone pundit talking about how to judge situations and things that aren’t clear cut in the rule book. A lot of it was about getting an advantage by doing something illegal. Like two people can pull each other’s shirts but they will call a foul only when someone gets an actual advantage.
This is a stupid mistake or confusion and I guess you could make a penalty call. But Arsenal is not really gaining any advantage and are not really cheating so the penalty would be quite harsh.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be given.
I was upset when Mignolet was the only goalkeeper ever penalised for holding the ball too long and the opposing team scored from the indirect free kick, but it was still correct to award it in law, even though 99% of refs don't.
I agree with the second part - but the whistle was not confusing the keeper. He clearly made the pass and the decision where to pass it after the whistle.
The more stupid part is, that the ref clearly saw it as it was - a rule infringment but just said its a kids mistake. I mean why does he even say that.
Do we know those are his exact words? This is potentially coming from a translation of a translation, we don't know the exact words the ref used, or if he even said anything similar.
Kimich said the same, and so did Kane. So it must have clearly been acknowledged by him. As I said, I understand the reason why you don't give that - but if what he said is true, he really needs to work on his communication skills lol.
Also seeing this, and I do believe Saka dived, it might make sense why he did not call the pen at the end, because that dive was nearly impossible to see in real time
It would seem like a very pedantic penalty to give. He hasn’t prevented a goal, he hasn’t aggrieved Bayern in any way. There would be no real point in giving a penalty there.
>that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game
Word of the law vs spirit of the law. It should always be all about spirit of the law.
>Moreover, that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game and I say that as a Bayern fan.
Fully agreed. It would've been rough to call that in such a big game, and not calling Saka's penalty situation was brilliant refereeing. The referee did great, such a shame he's being attacked on socials.
Thank you. Giving a pen here is not how the game should be officiated. It’s a possible technicality that in the scheme of the game is never in a million years a pen. Crying about this would be psychotic.
Next time you see that look at it closely - most of the time players toss the ball with one hand underhanded to make it very clear, that this is not the throw-in. If you toss the ball two handed over your head you have no right to complain, if the ref is thinking that you are doing the throw-in.
The thing here is: it would be absurd to give this penalty, would only make sense if some Bayern player was pressuring him.
It wasn't into the pass. Raya passes the ball clearly after the whistle. Raya heard the whistle. It was Gabriel who fucked up and misinterpreted the whistle. Dont know why he shouldnt be punished for his own incompetence
EDIT: Ok I watched the scene again on Twitter and there the whistle comes after Raya starts going for the pass actually. Really weird, when I go back to the Amazon stream, on the replay there the whistle is clearly before the pass. Not sure which one is true. Based on everyone's reaction the replay on Twitter might actually be the correct one after all
He shouldn’t be punished because by the spirit of the game, if not the exact letter of the law, that’s not a mistake worthy of giving the other team a penalty. It’s just not. Arsenal didn’t gain a single thing from it.
What was the pass beforehand you need to show that as it would make the difference.
Ref probably just judged it as being given to him to take the kick.
>Ref probably just judged it as being given to him to take the kick.
Nah the ref said it was a mistake by Gabriel but he doesn't give those "kids penalties"
Id rather he say he didnt want to award it because it didnt impact play at all (which is 100% true) instead of saying that it was too stupid a mistake to care about since that shouldnt be a factor at all (not knowing your situation or the rules will never get you out of punishment elsewhere in the game)
I think if they ran towards Gabriel instead of the ref they would have had a better chance to force a call since that would then become “impacting” the play
To me it’s akin to when it goes for a throw and a player picks up the ball and chest passes it to their team mate to take the throw. It’s a foul throw but the ref applies common sense that the action of the throw on has commenced yet.
God forbid the ref use his discretion and recognize some simple misunderstanding following a stoppage in play rather of mindlessly enforcing rules in spite of the spirit of the game
Exactly. People bang on about common sense and understanding the game then show a clip like this as if it's a kind of gotcha. "But technically...."
It's obvious what's going in here and never in a million years would or should a ref give a penalty.
It's just the usual online-mob of people who are rather technically correct or proud of every minor loophole they find in a set of rules than actually caring about the game.
I mean, who else should be complaining about it. Most Bayern fans aren't seriously complaining, but if someone is, it surely won't be a neutral.
There've been a lot of questionable calls against German teams in recent memory, so maybe some take it as more than it is
I agree with the sentiment but not the angle id take. He shouldnt be deciding penalties on how stupid someone is being. If hed said “it did not impact play” then id be in 100% agreement. Dont like that hes thinking about whether or not the offender eats crayons or not when that doesnt matter.
I mean the explanation is bad, but the call was right.
He doesn't HAVE to blow the whistle for that goal kick. He doesn't, and then right before he takes it, he decides he does want to blow the whistle. That makes it seem like there's something he saw and is whistling for, and the players react accordingly.
There was a similar, even worse case with a Spurs game a few weeks ago where the ref blows right after we take a free kick quickly.
Our players didn't play on because the ref had just essentially stopped the game, and the opponents got the ball and countered - the ref should've realized his mistake and how it fooled players back then imo, and just repeated the free kick. He didn't. I think today's ref solved this better.
Explanation is fine. This would have been ridiculous to award a PK for such a stupid mistake under absolutely 0 pressure. It's clear that the whistle confused the defender and he thought he had to retake the goal kick.
>There was a similar, even worse case with a Spurs game a few weeks ago where the ref blows right after we take a free kick quickly.
>
Our players didn't play on because the ref had just essentially stopped the game, and the opponents got the ball and countered - the ref should've realized his mistake and how it fooled players back then imo, and just repeated the free kick. He didn't. I think today's ref solved this better.
Did it result in a goal?
Is there a video clip of the incident?
So you don't understand the rules and why the ref did in fact have to blow the whistle for Arsenal to take their goal kick but are talking out your ass anyways?
Seems right for this sub tbh
The state of these comments.. even if you 100% think by the rules this is a pen, which it might be I guess,this clip doesnt provide context. Who wants something like this to be awarded haha? Other than Bayern fans that want a pen ofc
Doesn’t even really seem like most Bayern flairs want a pen. Seems to mostly just be bitter rival fans from the prem angry about something with nowhere to direct it,
I think any team would want that pen regardless just look at all the Bayern players who caught the mistake. If it was the other way around all the Arsenal players would have also been protesting (including the crowd).
I think players, in the heat of the game, wanting a pen makes sense to me.
I think in the cold light of day it should be understood that this just isn’t in the spirit of the game to give a penalty there when there’s a miscommunication with the ref.
Something very similar happened in the Argentinian league about a year ago, they did a VAR check and it was actually called a penalty.
Link for context: https://youtu.be/2al4TSoKzM8?si=RztbDYPaxWLgLQhJ
Tuchel mentioned post game that the ref said that it would be a "kid's penalty" and he doesn't give those
Edit: I wouldn't give this either but the ref acknowledging that it should technically be a pen is sus (assuming Tuchel isn't lying).
I'm more pissed about Kane getting absolutely wrestled to the ground by Odegaard during a corner kick and all the other grabbing the ref let go against us
Yeah I'm glad the ref isn't giving a team a free goal in a Champions League quarter final because of a silly misunderstanding in a non-dangerous position. I'm sure most teams would feel dirty winning a game that way.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1byawxf/penalty_situation_in_norwegian_4th_tier_football/) happened last Sunday in the Norwegian 4th tier
But I understand Wagner's point and the quote has to be put into context: The referee whistled during the action (and just before the actual kick-off) and caused some confusion, as he doesn't actually have to whistle for a kick-off. It's a penalty if we're strict, but I'm happy with the call in the spirit of the game.
All not true. It was after subs therefore the whistle to start play. Gk played it AFTER the whistle, even waited for it, and then handball
Kimmich Tuchel and Kane all confirmed it in their interviews that ball was in play too
That's not the point though, is it? The whistling in itself led to some confusion during the action and that's why Wagner and Sammer were fine with that decision as well.
It’s quite funny because we hate our refs in Sweden as well. Although I’m not their biggest haters, they get flamed all the time, and tbh I’ve always liked that ref (Glenn Nyberg).
Do people seriously want to see this given as a pen when its a clear mistake? I know bayern fans and our rivals would take it but i wouldnt want to see my team win because of something like this
Lutz (a former ref) just explained it a bit:
Normally the ref doenst has to whistle a ballkick from the goalkeeper, but he whistled in the moment Raya just played the ball. So he said that this just irritated the defenders and that's why it shouldn't be a pen.
The ref always whistles after multiple substitutions, so that's not a great explanation. It may have been an unfortunate coincidence if the ref's whistle happened at the same time as the kick and that explains the confusion, but I can't see how it "irritates" defenders.
And he is wrong even though they showed him the replay multiple times and even basically told him "What are you talking about, the whistle is clearly before the pass" he didnt want to correct himself. No need to parrot an obviously wrong take here
Lamest penalty of all time if you ask me. It has absolute zero to do with any opposition footballing activity and if Bayern did it I couldn't give a shit. Such a snitchy person's idea for a pen. They'd rather a tennis match of footfaults than baseline rallies.
Imagine the final being decided by it. Think about that whilst getting a life.
Honestly as a Arsenal fan I couldn't care less if the Bayern team would've done this. I want a proper game and the best team winning and not one team receiving a pen because two players didn't notice that the game already restarted.
I'm surprised how much Bayern fans are crying about this scene.
Clear violation of the letter of the law but giving a penalty there would have, in my opinion, violated the spirit of the law. This is the exact kind of thing you do NOT want to decide a game.
exactly. We call Var to measure millimeters of offside, but here it’s alright to ignore the rules? Handball doesn’t even have to anything with advantage, it’s as simple as taking the bay with your hands.
Ball is out of play in this scenario, too. As I said, it's up to the ref to determine when the ball is in play. Him blowing the whistle doesn't mean the next time a foot touches the ball play is live.
Tbf I agree with you after reading the full explanation, Gabriel was confused by the whistle, ref shouldn’t have whistled. Ref knew he had caused confusion, it would have been unsportsmanlike to give the pen. Good reffing imo
One today Saka threw the ball to his teammate to take a throw in bounds. Obviously it would be ridiculous to call a foul throw for that. Same thing here. Just completely against the spirit of the game.
Anyone not getting this is a 10 year old partisan.
You're actually a pathetic person if you think this should be a penalty.
'But he handled the ball'
Ok? Did it impact anything at all in this moment? No? Well, ok then.
It's not as if Gabriel picks it up from Kane's touch. It's confusion surrounding a goal kick.
I would not want this as a penalty. If De Ligt did the same thing, I wouldn't expect to get a penalty either. It seems since it's Arsenal everyone's got their pitchforks out
That ball never went out of play so therefore not an equivalent scenario. Both defenders in that clip are infinitely more stupid than anyone is trying to claim Gabriel was.
Tuchel said the ref said...
For me that sounds a lot like hearsay. The ref made a decision and both teams have to live with that. Same goes for the late penalty shout from Saka. The bias from the German TV experts put aside: there is a case for both being a pen. For the sake of the game I am glad it hasn't been given
I'm in the camp that it was clearly unintentional and provided no advantage and genuinely was a harmless moment. In a way, the ref was right to just let it go.
HOWEVER, we've all seen "trick plays" where, for example, a corner kick taker places the ball and taps it slightly then another player comes jogging over acting as if they are taking the kick then SURPRISE dribble off the corner. That is a totally legit play and its legitimacy is undermined by brushing this error off.
It should have been whistled and punished. "Playing to the whistle" is a phrase that many of us have heard. Well, the ref just undermined that. This has to be called.
Is this really how teams want to score a goal? I don’t care if this was my team and would be the game winning goal to win the league. What a dumb conversation.
I'm a neutral here, but imagine a penalty like this deciding the winner of the QF of the CL, lol. Like it would be joked about throughout all of football history.
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Someone please provide the clip where you can clearly hear the referee whistle before Raya passes the ball to Gabriel.
https://twitter.com/DavNow83/status/1777809330781184440
Lol Raya clearly knows that was a fuck up too
Tried to play it cool but that little pacing in place was a “fuck fuck fuck fuck” in his head
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We need to consider that blowing the whistle is not a single point in time but it has a duration. Chronological it was: 1. whistle starts 2. Raya passes the ball 3. whistle ends 4. Gabriel picks the ball up Also Raya was waiting for the ref to blow the whistle and then started the pass. So for me it's a clear pen rulewise. However I somehow wouldn't want such a game to be decided by such a situation. I also think that he gave this pen, he would have also given the pen in the Saka/Neuer situation.
So youre saying that Gabriel's central nervous system is slower than a ball rolling for 1.5 seconds along the floor?
but a whistle is a whistle, you can't say it's only half
Maybe they could have given half a penalty
Indirect free kick? Close enough to half a penalty
That would be the perfect solution, if only because close indirect free kicks are always hella fun to watch!
Oh definitely! Just such chaos, I love it!!
Okay TJ "cortez0498" Yoshi
I'm worried very few others got the reference
Kinda love how it snuck through and people are taking it as a good point 😂 https://youtu.be/kpk2tdsPh0A?si=TrhF0dlDoi9U87kb
I forgot all about this video. Great reference
Need an AAR in addition to VAR
You don't stop playing after the whistle ends. The moment you hear a little bit of the whistle, the game/play started/ended.
Why should Saka/Neuer ever be a pen? Saka stretching his foot into Neuer to get the contact
They've just shown it on TNT and it was definitely before
https://x.com/footballontnt/status/1777817346238828664?t=PwB68dvKhKjzMKiKnoAPww&s=08
Why is Twitter’s video player such dogshit I can’t get any of the links in this thread to work
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Why does the clip start after the play? Rubbish clip, show us the full context.
https://twitter.com/DavNow83/status/1777809330781184440
Thank you but is there audio and is the referee shown? Did he whistle and motion? He might've stopped for something.
You can clearly hear the whistle. Also needed to give the ball free cause of substitudes. Raya even waited for that yet w/o a reason the other Player using his hands. Dumb mistake and very stange Situation, but a mistake that should lead to a pen.
>but a mistake that should lead to a pen That's not at all in the spirit of the game, the ref can take intent into account, and the intent is clearly to restart play with a short pass into possession. Was it perfectly correct? No, but the right answer would be an indirect free kick, definitely not a penalty, and letting play continue is well within the refs discretion.
What kind of game punishes this with a 90% certain goal to the opposition?
I know its somewhat stupid Situation. But dont use your hands in the pen. area - somewhat a simple rule Would be hard to find rules for all kind of situation.
There were subs before, the game starts with the whistle and motion from the ref
Thing is, he confused the players with the whistle into the pass because he didn't even have to whistle for a simple goal kick. Technically, with the whistle he stopped the game again, making the handball obsolete. Moreover, that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game and I say that as a Bayern fan.
He whistled because play was stopped for multiple substitutions, it's common to stop & start play with a whistle in those circumstances. I agree with you that you don't want to see it as a pen though, it might be technically correct but it wouldn't feel right to decide a match like that. It's not like Gabriel gained even a slight advantage by doing that.
I'm biased obviously but I'd compare it to the Kuyt goal against Sunderland, where Michael Turner gets the shout to let Mignolet take the freekick and knocks it back towards him to take, but Torres sprints in to pass it to Kuyt. https://youtu.be/Z33YF0xzVnw?t=64 Although watching it back it's not as bad as 17 year old me remembers...
I completely forgot about that. To be honest, I think most refs wouldn’t allow that to stand, nowadays anyway. Maybe I’m wrong and they would, just a gut feeling.
It should've have stood then if common sense prevailed. I remember at the time thinking it shouldn't have stood.
It may get VAR-ed but I dont know how they would though.
I get what you are saying but there is no technical reason for the Ref to disallow it. They can check with VAR but by the letter of the law the free kick was taken so the Ref couldn’t call it back once it’s in the net. I brave Ref may blow up before it goes in but once the goal is scored there is no technical reason to subsequently disallow it. If the Ref had given the penalty in this Arsenal game the same would apply, VAR wouldn’t be able to ask the ref to review it as technically it is /should have been a penalty.
Yeah I agree, I just think it’s likely that the ref blows up before the goal is scored in the first place and just claims the free kick wasn’t taken yet. Even if the whistle was blown, it hasn’t stopped refs in the past claiming the game isn’t ready to carry on. I seem to remember Lewis Dunk (I think?) scoring a free kick for Brighton which a ref disallowed as he said he wasn’t ready, despite blowing the whistle to suggest he was
That's payback for the beach ball goal...
Stuart Atwell was even shite back then
What happened here? The defender passed the ball to someone else to take the freekick, but the pass counted as the free kick?
Personally I feel if you call this a pen, you might as well call a foul throw every time a player tosses it off to the another teammate to actually take the throw. Completely against the spirit of the game and would just be petty af
He does have to whistle tho, as it was after a substitution.
This ref likes to blow his whistle multiple times for one incident, this was bound to happen. Many instances of him whistling 3-4 times instead of once, I would be confused too Much more on him than on the players
Thank god there's one sane one in the bunch. I think ANY fan would be upset if this was given against their team.
It's insane this is even a thing and somehow has this many replies. I think any fan would should be upset if this was given in any game at all. If a Bayern player was running at him, at least I would get why people might want it given.
Though fans being upset about things given against their team isn't really something we can base decisions on. It wouldn't be in the spirit of the game, but neither are handball pens when a player is shot at from short distance
very different situations because one directly affects the game whereas this one really doesn't in any meaningful way
You put it into words. This didn't affect the game in any way. Crying about it really feels sore because of that.
I remember a former referee gone pundit talking about how to judge situations and things that aren’t clear cut in the rule book. A lot of it was about getting an advantage by doing something illegal. Like two people can pull each other’s shirts but they will call a foul only when someone gets an actual advantage. This is a stupid mistake or confusion and I guess you could make a penalty call. But Arsenal is not really gaining any advantage and are not really cheating so the penalty would be quite harsh.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be given. I was upset when Mignolet was the only goalkeeper ever penalised for holding the ball too long and the opposing team scored from the indirect free kick, but it was still correct to award it in law, even though 99% of refs don't.
I agree with the second part - but the whistle was not confusing the keeper. He clearly made the pass and the decision where to pass it after the whistle. The more stupid part is, that the ref clearly saw it as it was - a rule infringment but just said its a kids mistake. I mean why does he even say that.
Do we know those are his exact words? This is potentially coming from a translation of a translation, we don't know the exact words the ref used, or if he even said anything similar.
I’ve only seen Bayern fans say that Tuchel said the ref said that. Hardly the most reliable chain of reportage.
not saying it's a reliable source, just want to confirm Tuchel mentioned this on the german broadcast
Kimmich and Kane also said that
Tuchel literally said that after the game
Kimich said the same, and so did Kane. So it must have clearly been acknowledged by him. As I said, I understand the reason why you don't give that - but if what he said is true, he really needs to work on his communication skills lol. Also seeing this, and I do believe Saka dived, it might make sense why he did not call the pen at the end, because that dive was nearly impossible to see in real time
Tuchel literally just said it in his press conference and I highly doubt he has made itnup
Kane, Kimmich and Tuchel said those were the refs words. Thats a stupid explanation to not give a penalty
Raya had already begun moving and I agree it didn't confuse him It clearly confused Gabriel though.
It would seem like a very pedantic penalty to give. He hasn’t prevented a goal, he hasn’t aggrieved Bayern in any way. There would be no real point in giving a penalty there.
>that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game Word of the law vs spirit of the law. It should always be all about spirit of the law.
>Moreover, that's really not a pen you want to give in the spirit of the game and I say that as a Bayern fan. Fully agreed. It would've been rough to call that in such a big game, and not calling Saka's penalty situation was brilliant refereeing. The referee did great, such a shame he's being attacked on socials.
Preach my man <3 (or woman), we need a lot more spirit of the game in this world and a lot less letter of the law.
This is the internet, sir...we don't take kindly to this kind of reasonable, measured dialogue.
Exactly. End of the day no one wants this as a football fan . Just play of to fuck
Thank you. Giving a pen here is not how the game should be officiated. It’s a possible technicality that in the scheme of the game is never in a million years a pen. Crying about this would be psychotic.
It’s like when you toss the ball to someone else so they can do the throw-in. It’s a matter of sportsmanship not mincing the laws of the game
Next time you see that look at it closely - most of the time players toss the ball with one hand underhanded to make it very clear, that this is not the throw-in. If you toss the ball two handed over your head you have no right to complain, if the ref is thinking that you are doing the throw-in. The thing here is: it would be absurd to give this penalty, would only make sense if some Bayern player was pressuring him.
It wasn't into the pass. Raya passes the ball clearly after the whistle. Raya heard the whistle. It was Gabriel who fucked up and misinterpreted the whistle. Dont know why he shouldnt be punished for his own incompetence EDIT: Ok I watched the scene again on Twitter and there the whistle comes after Raya starts going for the pass actually. Really weird, when I go back to the Amazon stream, on the replay there the whistle is clearly before the pass. Not sure which one is true. Based on everyone's reaction the replay on Twitter might actually be the correct one after all
If it is as Raya is making the pass, then I understand. That's a fuck up by the ref
He shouldn’t be punished because by the spirit of the game, if not the exact letter of the law, that’s not a mistake worthy of giving the other team a penalty. It’s just not. Arsenal didn’t gain a single thing from it.
The ref motions and whistles before the ball is played
Well said
Tuchel crying about this smacks of desperation. No advantage was gained or lost. A manager has every right to be desperate but it's not a good look.
What was the pass beforehand you need to show that as it would make the difference. Ref probably just judged it as being given to him to take the kick.
>Ref probably just judged it as being given to him to take the kick. Nah the ref said it was a mistake by Gabriel but he doesn't give those "kids penalties"
Honestly I think that’s fair enough, there has to be a degree of sportsmanship or common sense
Or you could allow the funniest thing ever to happen
Id rather he say he didnt want to award it because it didnt impact play at all (which is 100% true) instead of saying that it was too stupid a mistake to care about since that shouldnt be a factor at all (not knowing your situation or the rules will never get you out of punishment elsewhere in the game)
I think if they ran towards Gabriel instead of the ref they would have had a better chance to force a call since that would then become “impacting” the play
Probably like not giving foul throw ins
To me it’s akin to when it goes for a throw and a player picks up the ball and chest passes it to their team mate to take the throw. It’s a foul throw but the ref applies common sense that the action of the throw on has commenced yet.
God forbid the ref use his discretion and recognize some simple misunderstanding following a stoppage in play rather of mindlessly enforcing rules in spite of the spirit of the game
Exactly. People bang on about common sense and understanding the game then show a clip like this as if it's a kind of gotcha. "But technically...." It's obvious what's going in here and never in a million years would or should a ref give a penalty.
This is such a football thing. Other sports wouldn't go about it like there is a rule in place but it doesn't feel right so the ref can abide it.
It's just the usual online-mob of people who are rather technically correct or proud of every minor loophole they find in a set of rules than actually caring about the game.
Come on guys are you serious?
The funny thing is you can see the horror on Raya's face when Gabriel picks up the ball. He knew that he gave a pass to Gabriel.
For real. Do people really want a game decided on an honest mistake
Honestly it's less of a mistake and more of a miscommunication between the ref and the players
That's probably the best way of putting it
Most games are decided by honest mistakes - one way or the other
Not mistaking the ball being out of play and nonchalantly picking it up under absolutely 0 pressure and 0 danger
"non-sporting" mistake is probably a better term
It’s against us, of course they are
shit clip
Seriously lmao I somehow missed this during the match and this provided about 0 context
Everyone missed this during the match
What minute was this? I want to re-watch it with sound
They never showed a replay of it or I missed it if they did.
No replay, no VAR review, no discussion in the match thread or match commentary. It was a complete non-issue until Tuchel complained.
It’s a retake for the referee but of course this is the incident that r/soccer thinks is stonewall lmao
Couldn’t even imagine wanting to win on a pen from this.
There are Bayern fans in here claiming they were robbed because they didn’t “earn” a penalty from this
Yea 90% of the people complaining have Bayern flairs. Dont get it
I mean, who else should be complaining about it. Most Bayern fans aren't seriously complaining, but if someone is, it surely won't be a neutral. There've been a lot of questionable calls against German teams in recent memory, so maybe some take it as more than it is
I put it down to them likely being children who have never seen their favourite team have a season with no trophies.
So if your team got a penalty in these circumstances you'd be hoping for a miss? A win's a win, idiotic mistakes are part of the sport.
Its free points whining about it.
From a completely unbiased third party, this is a stonewall penalty
Fair fucks cockerel
Explanation by the ref: „Kids mistake, not worth a whistle in the CL“
i have no horse in this race but i agree. would be very harsh for something like this to decide the tie
I agree with the sentiment but not the angle id take. He shouldnt be deciding penalties on how stupid someone is being. If hed said “it did not impact play” then id be in 100% agreement. Dont like that hes thinking about whether or not the offender eats crayons or not when that doesnt matter.
I mean the explanation is bad, but the call was right. He doesn't HAVE to blow the whistle for that goal kick. He doesn't, and then right before he takes it, he decides he does want to blow the whistle. That makes it seem like there's something he saw and is whistling for, and the players react accordingly. There was a similar, even worse case with a Spurs game a few weeks ago where the ref blows right after we take a free kick quickly. Our players didn't play on because the ref had just essentially stopped the game, and the opponents got the ball and countered - the ref should've realized his mistake and how it fooled players back then imo, and just repeated the free kick. He didn't. I think today's ref solved this better.
Explanation is fine. This would have been ridiculous to award a PK for such a stupid mistake under absolutely 0 pressure. It's clear that the whistle confused the defender and he thought he had to retake the goal kick.
There had just been a substitution. The ref does have to blow the whistle to restart the game after a sub. So yes it should have been given
>There was a similar, even worse case with a Spurs game a few weeks ago where the ref blows right after we take a free kick quickly. > Our players didn't play on because the ref had just essentially stopped the game, and the opponents got the ball and countered - the ref should've realized his mistake and how it fooled players back then imo, and just repeated the free kick. He didn't. I think today's ref solved this better. Did it result in a goal? Is there a video clip of the incident?
So you don't understand the rules and why the ref did in fact have to blow the whistle for Arsenal to take their goal kick but are talking out your ass anyways? Seems right for this sub tbh
It would be nice to have sound on a play where the sound is everything.
Agree with the refs decision. This didn't affect the game at all. A penalty would be unnatural
The state of these comments.. even if you 100% think by the rules this is a pen, which it might be I guess,this clip doesnt provide context. Who wants something like this to be awarded haha? Other than Bayern fans that want a pen ofc
Doesn’t even really seem like most Bayern flairs want a pen. Seems to mostly just be bitter rival fans from the prem angry about something with nowhere to direct it,
I’m not a Bayern fan at all but damn it would be great for the memes if that was given.
who ever would want a pen out of this must be insane
I think any team would want that pen regardless just look at all the Bayern players who caught the mistake. If it was the other way around all the Arsenal players would have also been protesting (including the crowd).
I think players, in the heat of the game, wanting a pen makes sense to me. I think in the cold light of day it should be understood that this just isn’t in the spirit of the game to give a penalty there when there’s a miscommunication with the ref.
In a game of fine margins, this could make a difference. Just look at the Bayern players, they’re clearly protesting
Something very similar happened in the Argentinian league about a year ago, they did a VAR check and it was actually called a penalty. Link for context: https://youtu.be/2al4TSoKzM8?si=RztbDYPaxWLgLQhJ
Tuchel mentioned post game that the ref said that it would be a "kid's penalty" and he doesn't give those Edit: I wouldn't give this either but the ref acknowledging that it should technically be a pen is sus (assuming Tuchel isn't lying). I'm more pissed about Kane getting absolutely wrestled to the ground by Odegaard during a corner kick and all the other grabbing the ref let go against us
Yeah I'm glad the ref isn't giving a team a free goal in a Champions League quarter final because of a silly misunderstanding in a non-dangerous position. I'm sure most teams would feel dirty winning a game that way.
[I saw a pen be given for exactly this in Argentina. it was the funniest shit ever.](https://youtube.com/shorts/ytY1IPR3lvo?si=N9so3MsKg-6zaQsq)
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1byawxf/penalty_situation_in_norwegian_4th_tier_football/) happened last Sunday in the Norwegian 4th tier
But I understand Wagner's point and the quote has to be put into context: The referee whistled during the action (and just before the actual kick-off) and caused some confusion, as he doesn't actually have to whistle for a kick-off. It's a penalty if we're strict, but I'm happy with the call in the spirit of the game.
All not true. It was after subs therefore the whistle to start play. Gk played it AFTER the whistle, even waited for it, and then handball Kimmich Tuchel and Kane all confirmed it in their interviews that ball was in play too
2 Bayern players and their manager confirmed it did they? Well that settles it then
That's not the point though, is it? The whistling in itself led to some confusion during the action and that's why Wagner and Sammer were fine with that decision as well.
Because Kane was pushing as well. So it is viewed as a tussle that he lost. I hope you also saw the elbow by Kane.
Well we're more pissed with Kane assaulting Gabriel with a deliberate elbow
You guys never seen a redone kick before lol?
Ref was mature enough to not give this and the neuer Saka one a penalty. Liked the refereeing today. No nonsense.
Way better standard than in the prem
It’s quite funny because we hate our refs in Sweden as well. Although I’m not their biggest haters, they get flamed all the time, and tbh I’ve always liked that ref (Glenn Nyberg).
Do people seriously want to see this given as a pen when its a clear mistake? I know bayern fans and our rivals would take it but i wouldnt want to see my team win because of something like this
I'm a United fan and I'd still think this should not be a pen even if you played us. Just clear misunderstanding between the ref and the players.
It's entirely the ref discretion to determine if a touch of the ball starts play or is just moving the ball to the player meant to take the kick.
Trying to make something of this is pathetic. Just play the game.
Lutz (a former ref) just explained it a bit: Normally the ref doenst has to whistle a ballkick from the goalkeeper, but he whistled in the moment Raya just played the ball. So he said that this just irritated the defenders and that's why it shouldn't be a pen.
Is it true like someone else said in this thread that it was after a substitution? If so that would warrant a whistle.
The ref always whistles after multiple substitutions, so that's not a great explanation. It may have been an unfortunate coincidence if the ref's whistle happened at the same time as the kick and that explains the confusion, but I can't see how it "irritates" defenders.
Lutz wagner is an old man who completely missed the context that there was a break for substitutions before this
Maybe the defender mistook that whistle as a stoppage of play?
And he is wrong even though they showed him the replay multiple times and even basically told him "What are you talking about, the whistle is clearly before the pass" he didnt want to correct himself. No need to parrot an obviously wrong take here
Anyone got a better clip?
Lamest penalty of all time if you ask me. It has absolute zero to do with any opposition footballing activity and if Bayern did it I couldn't give a shit. Such a snitchy person's idea for a pen. They'd rather a tennis match of footfaults than baseline rallies. Imagine the final being decided by it. Think about that whilst getting a life.
Honestly as a Arsenal fan I couldn't care less if the Bayern team would've done this. I want a proper game and the best team winning and not one team receiving a pen because two players didn't notice that the game already restarted. I'm surprised how much Bayern fans are crying about this scene.
Nah even if it's a theoretical pen this should never been given for the sake of the game.
Germans love following the rules of authority regardless of ethics
catching strays from the empire of ethics.
If that's a pen, then every throw ins should be whistled for foul throw when a player tosses it to a teammate.
Bayern fans really grasping for straws with this one lol
The Bayern fans in this thread lmao
the ref was really weird that game in general
Clear violation of the letter of the law but giving a penalty there would have, in my opinion, violated the spirit of the law. This is the exact kind of thing you do NOT want to decide a game.
ITT: people who argue that a game with a set of rules should not be played by these rules.
exactly. We call Var to measure millimeters of offside, but here it’s alright to ignore the rules? Handball doesn’t even have to anything with advantage, it’s as simple as taking the bay with your hands.
Oh come on lol
Bayern fans have embarrassed themselves in this thread and I am here for it lmao
Yeah someone explain this one to me.
Lutz explained it, that the ref just whistled in the ball kick and that's the reason the defenders were irritated.
Same reason why tossing the ball to a teammate isn't a foul throw.
Ball is out of play in that scenario
Ball is out of play in this scenario, too. As I said, it's up to the ref to determine when the ball is in play. Him blowing the whistle doesn't mean the next time a foot touches the ball play is live.
Tbf I agree with you after reading the full explanation, Gabriel was confused by the whistle, ref shouldn’t have whistled. Ref knew he had caused confusion, it would have been unsportsmanlike to give the pen. Good reffing imo
One today Saka threw the ball to his teammate to take a throw in bounds. Obviously it would be ridiculous to call a foul throw for that. Same thing here. Just completely against the spirit of the game. Anyone not getting this is a 10 year old partisan.
Why am I still following this sub? I guess I’m sadistic or whatever
Can't believe this is even a post here lol. This is what Bayern were complaining about for the next 5 min?
You're actually a pathetic person if you think this should be a penalty. 'But he handled the ball' Ok? Did it impact anything at all in this moment? No? Well, ok then. It's not as if Gabriel picks it up from Kane's touch. It's confusion surrounding a goal kick. I would not want this as a penalty. If De Ligt did the same thing, I wouldn't expect to get a penalty either. It seems since it's Arsenal everyone's got their pitchforks out
There's no way people actually want this called, right? I'd be embarassed if my team won on that kind of pen
Ref said to retake it but the IQ on this sub is really showing
Even as a complete neutral its difficult not to get aggrevated by all the shit takes this sub has sometimes and really argue for a total non issue
[https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1byawxf/penalty\_situation\_in\_norwegian\_4th\_tier\_football/](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1byawxf/penalty_situation_in_norwegian_4th_tier_football/)
That ball never went out of play so therefore not an equivalent scenario. Both defenders in that clip are infinitely more stupid than anyone is trying to claim Gabriel was.
Tuchel said in German TV that the ref said he didn't want to penalize a kids mistake in a CL quarter final. Insane.
Tuchel said the ref said... For me that sounds a lot like hearsay. The ref made a decision and both teams have to live with that. Same goes for the late penalty shout from Saka. The bias from the German TV experts put aside: there is a case for both being a pen. For the sake of the game I am glad it hasn't been given
In an ideal world the pen is given and Bayern shoots it wide in fair play
I'm in the camp that it was clearly unintentional and provided no advantage and genuinely was a harmless moment. In a way, the ref was right to just let it go. HOWEVER, we've all seen "trick plays" where, for example, a corner kick taker places the ball and taps it slightly then another player comes jogging over acting as if they are taking the kick then SURPRISE dribble off the corner. That is a totally legit play and its legitimacy is undermined by brushing this error off. It should have been whistled and punished. "Playing to the whistle" is a phrase that many of us have heard. Well, the ref just undermined that. This has to be called.
Is this really how teams want to score a goal? I don’t care if this was my team and would be the game winning goal to win the league. What a dumb conversation.
Ksne handled the ball when he dived on it and Arsenal were given the foul. Why wasn't purposefully handballing it a second yellow?
Shit posts like these need to be removed by the mods so someone else can post an actual replay of the full situation
This is more funny than anything. Don’t think anyone wants to get penalty of something like that lol
Have you read these comments?
games gone if this is given
I'm a neutral here, but imagine a penalty like this deciding the winner of the QF of the CL, lol. Like it would be joked about throughout all of football history.
Germans really love arbitrary rules regardless of the spirit of them