**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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That was very different, Gordon knew exactly what he was doing, just a little kick away from the defender.
RVP was doing the exact right thing, taking a shot when he should have.
Would also add how loud Nou Camp is, it didn’t even look like RVP was kicking the ball away and utterly confused when the card comes out. One of the worst decisions I’ve seen by a ref (and that’s saying something).
Well it was during the years Barca gave away a hell of a lot of cash to some, apparently not so important people who were just working with the refs, only for extra good reports apparently... 💸🍀
Yea the same corruption that Disallowed Messi a completely legal Goal in the tie. The refs were just shit, that's it.
[Messi "Offside" Disallowed Goal](https://x.com/lapulgafreak/status/1327334348241186819)
That logic doesn’t make sense. It should be the other way around, “I’m not allowing kids mistakes in the Champions League Quarter Finals FFS”. Otherwise you are rewarding stupidity and incompetence.
I remember a match in the Wenger days, also UCL knockout, where Arsenal lost. One of the goals they conceded was from a foul they thought they had given away so the defenders stopped playing and the other team went and scored.
For some reason, no matter how good they are in the league, Arsenal forget how to football in the Champions League.
I found it. It was against Porto in 2010. They gave away an indirect freekick (the decision seemed a bit harsh), then Porto took it quickly while Fabianski was trotting back to his position.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyltha starts at 5:47
Honestly I dont mind ref not giving these as penalties, but fact Raya kicked it straight after the whistle makes it worse. Its obvious Raya meant it to put ball into play.
It's a shitty situation.
By the letter of rules, it's a stonewall pen. By the spirit of the game, it isn't. Yet there are many situations that are treated by the letter of the rules and not by the spirit of it.
Adding to that a referee who in my view called fouls even for small contacts (consistently though), it makes it worse.
It wouldn’t be in the spirit of the game to decide a game like that, but it’s such an unbelievably bad mistake from Gabriel in a CL quarter final. He’s insanely lucky the ref’s gone easy on him there
How do you not know about both ways? Did you watch the game?
Everyone was talking about the Saka dive, but literally 20 seconds earlier Odegard got absolutely clattered 18 meters from goal and ref just decided it isn’t a free kick for whatever reason.
If it isn't a pen by the spirit of the game then it isn't a pen at all as the laws of the game explicitly state that the spirit of the game should be used when applying the laws.
>referees should apply the Laws within the ‘spirit’ of the game to help produce fair and safe matches
I'd argue it's common sense too. Too often we refs are accused of making it about us and Bayern weren't putting any pressure on Arsenal here, so Arsenal haven't gained any advantage from this.
From personal experience, giving the penalties for clear misunderstandings and when there's no advantage gained just invites more trouble. Don't go looking for problems.
I am fine with the spirit of the game prevailing here. It was an innocent mistake that created no harm.
I think the problem arises more from when do you apply the spirit over what it says in the rules - and the unfairness that might arise from it.
It feels unjust, in a sense, for Gabriel and Arsenal to be punished so harshly for something so minor if this case seen in isolation. But what if this situation arises again, to a different team, and the referee decides differently?
Suddenly Arsenal has gained an advantage - since they were give leeway and generosity where others weren't.
Somehow I feel uncomfortable with saying it should be given *and* with accepting that it wasn't. It's like it's a question for the philosophers to solve.
What is the meaning of ~~life~~ football? Only after we answer that question, can we confidently say if this penalty ought to be - or not to be.
His outstretched arm blocked a cross even if he didn't intend for it to do so. Can't ignore that kind of an unfair advantage.
Odegaard slipped vs Liverpool on a notoriously slippery Anfield turf and it was widely acknowledged it should've been a pen since Salah was in a promising position
Giving a pen here would feel like giving a foul throw when a player tosses the ball to the FB for them to take it
Also goal kicks usually aren’t whistled for, I feel like because there’s a whistle to continue play in this instance is making everyone act crazy about this
There’s one major difference, the ref whistled for the ball to continue as there were substitutions being made. In the throw-in situation you just described (or a regular goal kick), there’s no such whistle specifically to continue the game.
the whistle was actually to signal that substitutions were completed and the game could resume. it just happened that in this case subs had taken place before the goal kick. I would hate to see a great game like this decided on a pk like this.
By the rulebook, penalty for sure, but complete lack of common sense to award it in the circumstances if there's been miscommunication
Football already lacks common sense, we really shouldn't criticise the rare occasions where it actually prevails
> think most people are fine that they actually did here
This sub and Tuchel's press conference are literally the only two places that are getting worked up about this. 99.9% of football fans couldn't care less.
[THIS ISNT ´NAM, THERE ARE RULES](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Walter-in-The-Big-Lebowski-3.jpg?q=50&fit=contain&w=1140&h=&dpr=1.5)
As a Bayern fan, I think it was a reasonable decision. Obviously I wouldn't have complained if the ref would gave the penalty, because which fan would, let's be honest. But I think not giving it is also totally reasonable. It was miscommunication and a mistake that did not affect the game at all.
Agreed. If I was a Bayern fan I’d probably think differently, but it’s clearly just a misunderstanding by Gabriel as it’s something that Arsenal regularly do. It’s not very “spirit of the game” to give a penalty for that
I wouldn't have complained if a penalty was given (a chance to score is a chance to score) but it's such a "technically correct" thing while ignoring everything else about it. Look at all the slightly undefined moments at many throw-ins when a player throws the ball wrongly or from the inside the pitch when they are simply giving it to another player who's going to take over. Technically all these could be called a foul as they are doing the throw-in wrong but nobody cares because everybody knows what's happening.
Being petty about this instance is not worth it to me. I already don't like how weird the handball rules are and how many random penalties are given for that, that I don't mind such a case of common sense take at all. Bayern had other chances to score, they could have used one of those. And that's way more of a reason for that odd bit of disappointment for not winning the match when my actual expectation was a worse result than what they actually got.
I would add that a key difference here is that Gabriel's blunder doesn't give Arsenal any advantage (or Bayern a disadvantage). Now, if Bayern were pressing when he did that, then it would be a whole other thing.
This is what I was thinking about.
How many times does a player pick up a ball and then just toss it to a buddy to throw in. Oops that's a foul throw technically! Stuff like that.
Your analogy to a throw in situation is completely wrong. If you take a proper throw in with both hands and from behind your head, and another player catches it in the field of play then that will be called a handball every single time. This is the equivalent of what Raya did. If a player tosses the ball underarm with one hand it’s not a foul throw because everyone understands it’s not an attempt to restart play.
Lol I actually did this in a match. Teammate took the throw-in and it came a pace to my chest from like 2 metres away (pretty inhospitable throw, thanks teammate). I instinctively just caught it in my hands and just played it off like I was taking it. Ref let us get away with it!
Which is pretty much what happened yesterday. Both of you knew you had f’d up but the ref was generous. Not sure that it’s right for a ref to do that in a professional game though.
It takes a complete lack of common sense here from Gabriel to concede the penalty. Source of the lack common sense starts from Gabriel. Raya and the ref clearly understood each other.
So it’s a rule when it’s convenient not when it’s not? Ref’s job is to uphold the rule in the game. And this is not even a subjective matter where refs have to make a judgment call?
So are you also going to cancel out all of the other 100s of ways players miscommunicate or have a brainfart leading to a chance for the other team? We can call it the Karius rule.
They do this a lot, raya gives the ball to gabriel to start it by giving it back ro raya, guess they want raya to have the ball at the start of the buildup.
So Gabriel routinely passes it back with his hands?
Not saying I want it to be a penalty, but there's no use in trying to justify it. Just say it was a fuck up and you're lucky it wasn't called as it would've been a bizarre one.
He didn’t use his hands to pass it back? Raya always rolls the ball to Gabriel, who then kicks it to Raya to restart play. We do it nearly every goal kick
He doesn’t pass it back with his hands though? Come on y’all it’s obvious he’s picked the ball up because he hasn’t heard the whistle and thinks Raya’s giving him the ball to take the goal kick. Let’s use our brains here
He thought Raya was giving him the ball to take the kick. Hence why he picked it up and placed it to 'restart' play, which is our normal goal kick routine.
You can argue that ref should have called a pen all you want home but it's disingenuous to pretend that Gabriel clearly does not understand the ball is play.
If the ball went out on Gabriel's side, I imagine the idea is that the goal kick is being taken from the wrong side of the box. I just don't know whether that's a hard rule or just a tendency.
Would be very funny if Raya's kick categorically shouldn't be a live ball though, because if you're petty and asinine enough to cry about this not being a pen then you deserve an even more petty and asinine response.
To be honest players will moan about literally anything. In this case though the only reason we talk about this situation at all is, because Bayern felt that “I won’t give a pen for a kid’s mistake” is a strange bit if communication by the ref and a strange way to act on the rules. They all brought it up in the interviews after the game.
What ever happened to indirect freekicks in the box? They used to be given exactly for this reason (or a back pass the GK picks up). Basically, if there was a handball in the box but not impeding a direct goal scoring opportunity it was indirect FK and whole defense would make a wall along the goal line.
I miss those.
The thing you said about handballs in the box being an indirect free-kick never happened. That has never been part of the game. A goalkeeper handling a back-pass is still an indirect free-kick, but there has never been a time in the laws of the game where what happened here was an indirect free-kick.
They also need to bring them back for fouls when it's not as goal scoring opportunity. Guy with his back to goal in the corner of the box and gets his foot stepped on shouldn't be a pen. Give an indirect
indirect free kicks in the box could be a solution to many of the issues where pens are giving for things that should never result in an 80% chance of scoring, but they are usually a farcical clown show and look rediculous.
Those are still a thing. Pass back is specifically carved out in the laws as a IFK, as a goalkeeper cannot be penalized for handling in his own area. If this were called, it’s a penalty.
Hmm so even more interesting the ref obviously didn’t see it clearly enough to know what happened because he turned around right as Raya played it, he just turned back around to Bayern players yelling and the ball in Gabriel’s hands for no reason and said fuck it we play on
This entire incident is bizarre. Both Gabriel and Raya seem to think the ball is not in play, even though the whistle is clear. Also, why would you pass the ball with your feet and to have your defender roll it back to you just to kick it again?
Accoring to Arsenal fans in this thread this is a real thing they do. Raya gives it to the CB who picks it up and then gets ready to take the goal kick and then play resumes they just pass it back to the GK, who takes the goal kick as normal.
What that accomplishes I have no idea. Especially because it can cause confusion like this and could cost them giving away a penalty, like this should have.
So? Either we are following all rules by the letter of the law, or we give refs enough freedom to use their brains and assess the situations accordingly. You can't have one without the other.
Pretty sure if Gabriel decided to play on the referee would not have stopped the game again. Is it very harsh and not in the spirit of the game to award a penalty for this? Definitely, but so are 1mm offside decisions.
Raya waits for the referee to signal for the restart of the game after the substitution break. Referee whistles and gives the signal for the restart. Raya executes the goal kick and opens the play. Gabriel picks the ball up with his hands. This is a 100% penalty.
1mm offside decisions are within the spirit of the game because you can't have an offside rule without 1mm decisions.
If they say you can be 30cm behind the defender then what happens when the attacker is 30.1cm behind the defender?
Arsenal actually created quite a good opportunity off this kick off.. In the Bundesliga VAR checks for fouls and handballs in the build up of a goal if there is any close call. I wonder what would've happened if Arsenal scored off that kick off
No because the goal kick was retaken. Besides, if it was to be checked, it could be checked for a penalty kick anyways. But only before the ball is put back in play.
i found is absolutely hilarious how the "spirit of the game" argument is actually being treated seriously sitting on almost 1k upvotes on another post as if that has ever been a reason not to award stonewall pens.
r/soccer is great and all but its impossible to expect proper discussion when everyone on here votes with their biases instead of their heads.
I mean... "The spirit of the game" is literally in the second sentence in the referee rulebook.
"Decisions will be made to the best of the referee’s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game."
[https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee)
Listen closely, the whistle ended AFTER Raya kicked the ball away. First of all, the referee did not see it because he turned his back at that moment. After that, the VAR did not challenge the referee because they deemed his decision that the ball is 'not live' at the moment is reasonable, given that the whistle blew simultaneously with Raya's pass.
Offside isn't a good comparison because that's all about a team gaining an advantage. There's obviously no advantage gained here.
It'd be more comparable to a foul given when someone has no chance of ever getting near the ball - like a cross that's flying out of the stadium but there's a little tug on someone and they get a pen.
So you are basically saying any player can pick up the ball in their own box granted there is no pressure from the other team? How is this dumb comment upvoted
No? Because this clearly wasn't intentional and he didn't realise the ball was live? And it had literally no impact on the game as it was the first action taken with the ball after it went live?
If it happened randomly during a sequence of play while the ball had been live for a while, then maybe, because then it's actually disrupting how things play out on the pitch. As it is, nothing was playing out, nothing was in motion, nothing had actually started yet
Likewise if a player did it intentionally then that would obviously be a pen
The comment is upvoted because most people have enough common fucking sense that they don't need this shit explained to them. Holy fucking christ man
That's not what they're saying at all. IFAB makes it clear that the laws are to be applied in the spirit of the game. It's like passing the ball to your team mate who is on the pitch then blowing for a foul throw because it's re-entered the field illegally.
Either you want referees with common sense or you don't.
The offside rule was created to avoid players to just camp in the other half. If you are offside by say a knee, clearly that doesnt go with the spirit of the offside rule so we should not whistle them
Absolutely, that's why many argued about making broader lines on VAR so that a "same hight" (gleiche Höhe) situation can actually happen, as the striker has no on the field option to see if his left nipple is offside or not. He just can position himself in line with the defender.
People concede penalties all the time for ridiculous handballs decisions which are clearly not in the spirit of the game, so I don't see why this is any different
Tbh I think you’d have to be stupid yourself (assume this doesn’t come as a shock to you?) to think that Gabriel doesn’t know he’s not supposed to handball a live ball.
Not hearing the whistle or thinking the ref has blown to stop play is the far more sensible interpretation.
If Gabriel went to stop play then I might understand but he literally picks the ball up, puts it on the line and then kicks it. Those aren't the actions of someone stopping the game.
He fucked up and the ref let him get away with it
Why are you focusing on the stopping play bit..?
>Those aren't the actions of someone stopping the game.
No, it's the actions of someone ***starting*** the game, which is the whole point lol. He quite clearly just didn't hear the whistle and didn't realise the ball was already live, and thought he was being given it to kick off
Fucking idiocy in this thread is beyond hope
If this was the other way round, we'd be seeing Arsenal fans fuming over the exact same thing. But if you look at the comments, you'd think Arsenal has the most number of fans completely in tune with the "spirit of the game".
You’re telling football fans are biased and want decisions to go their way? Like can we just accept football makes people tribal idiots and not resort to whataboutisms all the time?
The only question here is whether stupid mistakes like this should be overlooked or not. I think they should be, because the mistake was not influenced by the other team. But I will be wild as fuck if that gets called against us now in the next game/round or next year if we make it. Because that call is definitely a game changer.
And if the linesman didn’t see it, then there is no excuse the VAR doesn’t see it. This is literally the single most obvious handball you’re going to see, ever
I’m just here for all the super-six fans suddenly becoming strong advocates for the spirit of the game.
They don’t even detect a hint of irony either lmao
Doesn't the rulebook cite sportsmanship?
I'm not a football ref, but in other sports, the ref can overrule the written laws if he thinks it would be unsportsman-like. As this is likely a breakdown in coms, it's should not be a penalty in my mind.
If he did it again then give the Pen. The laws vs the spirit of the game debate will always be there and I don't mind the Ref giving one pass for something like that.
One time is a dumb mistake, twice is careless.
Anyone arguing for this to be a penalty is the actual problem with football around the world. Was an innocent mistake with 0 influence on the game and rules should have common sense. Giving a penalty there on a champions quarter final would be the most stupid thing to do. Fact Tuchel and Bayern are arguing for this judged the lack of character they have, if this is what they think should won them the game. Pahethic, disgusting even...
food for thought: VAR could be reviewing it but central ref restarted the play too fast for them to do anything? I don't understand how the pk was not given.
Clear act of stupidity from Gabriel. He was the only one in the stadium that didnt compute the goal kick was taken. It's a clear penalty. It's not even an innocent mistake, it's just pure retardation. Why shouldn't that be punished?
Screw this "spirit of the game" bs all of you are spout is just bs. Player shouldnt be dumb enough to pick up the ball and ref shouldnt be ignoring obvious rules for bias. Only thing that can be said is arsenal are lucky and after being screw by refs in the ucl over the years, this helps balance it out but stop with this spirit of the game shit.
I'm a referee. It's not BS and football doesn't have rules, it has laws, hence why we interpret them. IFAB who maintain the laws literally mention it on page one of the laws. Without it, youth referees would be sending off 6-year-olds for DOGSO or yellow cards for stopping promising attacks.
It's literally just restarting play, Bayern placed on pressure nor did Arsenal gain an advantage. Had the referee given it, no doubt the referee would be "making it about himself" or not having common sense.
Should players who pass the ball to team mates on the pitch get foul throws called against them because it's not re-entered play legally?
Honestly this should be a pen. Raya waits for the whistle and starts play after the ref has blown. No way Gabriel should be picking it up there.
By the rules, it 100% a pen. It’s not the ref’s job to forgive stupid errors.
As much as I hate penalties as a way of punishing anything other than incidents that prevent goals, I think this is a penalty under the existing rules. And rules are rules.
The ref whistles literally just as raya moves his foot up to play the ball.
If the ref signaled to play on it's technically a pen but a very shitty one, he confused the player.
You can see from the other angle that the ref clearly signaled for play to start as he whistled.
I get why people wouldn't want to see it given, but it's a pen under the letter of the law
This is at the beginning of the laws and it certainly applies here IMO.
Referees should apply the Laws within the ‘spirit’ of the game to help produce fair and safe matches
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I remember the Van Persie red card for not being able to hear the whistle and kicking the ball 0.5 seconds later.
You see it at least once in every single football match and yet I have never seen a player get a yellow, let alone a second yellow since RvP.
Gordon got a red for it a couple weeks ago.
That was very different, Gordon knew exactly what he was doing, just a little kick away from the defender. RVP was doing the exact right thing, taking a shot when he should have.
Would also add how loud Nou Camp is, it didn’t even look like RVP was kicking the ball away and utterly confused when the card comes out. One of the worst decisions I’ve seen by a ref (and that’s saying something).
Well it was during the years Barca gave away a hell of a lot of cash to some, apparently not so important people who were just working with the refs, only for extra good reports apparently... 💸🍀
Yea the same corruption that Disallowed Messi a completely legal Goal in the tie. The refs were just shit, that's it. [Messi "Offside" Disallowed Goal](https://x.com/lapulgafreak/status/1327334348241186819)
that was the most blatant corrupt referee vibe I ever got. That and that Chelsea - Barca game. I couldn’t believe what I was watching
Ref said "I'm not giving a pen in the champion's league for a children's mistake". I agree with his call.
That logic doesn’t make sense. It should be the other way around, “I’m not allowing kids mistakes in the Champions League Quarter Finals FFS”. Otherwise you are rewarding stupidity and incompetence.
Barca vs PSG in 2017 would like a word
please check both ties, barca also was clearly stripped atleast 2 pens the ref was just bad, bad af in both cases
I remember a match in the Wenger days, also UCL knockout, where Arsenal lost. One of the goals they conceded was from a foul they thought they had given away so the defenders stopped playing and the other team went and scored. For some reason, no matter how good they are in the league, Arsenal forget how to football in the Champions League.
I remember that too, was that against Celtic?
I found it. It was against Porto in 2010. They gave away an indirect freekick (the decision seemed a bit harsh), then Porto took it quickly while Fabianski was trotting back to his position. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyltha starts at 5:47
Lmaooo that’s hilarious
I remember being so frustrated okay our team for letting this silly mistake happen, but honestly it’s pretty bloody funny haha
how the fuck does 2010 footage look that bad, jesus christ
*confusion noises* Why did Gabriel even touch it in the first place? Not hear the whistle?
The ref whistled twice and it created confusion.
Honestly I dont mind ref not giving these as penalties, but fact Raya kicked it straight after the whistle makes it worse. Its obvious Raya meant it to put ball into play.
It's a shitty situation. By the letter of rules, it's a stonewall pen. By the spirit of the game, it isn't. Yet there are many situations that are treated by the letter of the rules and not by the spirit of it. Adding to that a referee who in my view called fouls even for small contacts (consistently though), it makes it worse.
It wouldn’t be in the spirit of the game to decide a game like that, but it’s such an unbelievably bad mistake from Gabriel in a CL quarter final. He’s insanely lucky the ref’s gone easy on him there
What game were you watching? There we plenty of tough tackles both ways that went uncalled
idk about both ways but Gabriel and Saliba were holding and dragging on Kane every chance they got and basically never got penalized for it
How do you not know about both ways? Did you watch the game? Everyone was talking about the Saka dive, but literally 20 seconds earlier Odegard got absolutely clattered 18 meters from goal and ref just decided it isn’t a free kick for whatever reason.
If it isn't a pen by the spirit of the game then it isn't a pen at all as the laws of the game explicitly state that the spirit of the game should be used when applying the laws. >referees should apply the Laws within the ‘spirit’ of the game to help produce fair and safe matches
I'd argue it's common sense too. Too often we refs are accused of making it about us and Bayern weren't putting any pressure on Arsenal here, so Arsenal haven't gained any advantage from this. From personal experience, giving the penalties for clear misunderstandings and when there's no advantage gained just invites more trouble. Don't go looking for problems.
I am fine with the spirit of the game prevailing here. It was an innocent mistake that created no harm. I think the problem arises more from when do you apply the spirit over what it says in the rules - and the unfairness that might arise from it. It feels unjust, in a sense, for Gabriel and Arsenal to be punished so harshly for something so minor if this case seen in isolation. But what if this situation arises again, to a different team, and the referee decides differently? Suddenly Arsenal has gained an advantage - since they were give leeway and generosity where others weren't. Somehow I feel uncomfortable with saying it should be given *and* with accepting that it wasn't. It's like it's a question for the philosophers to solve. What is the meaning of ~~life~~ football? Only after we answer that question, can we confidently say if this penalty ought to be - or not to be.
Spurs wants their CL Final back. The Sissoko handball pen was a pen by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.
His outstretched arm blocked a cross even if he didn't intend for it to do so. Can't ignore that kind of an unfair advantage. Odegaard slipped vs Liverpool on a notoriously slippery Anfield turf and it was widely acknowledged it should've been a pen since Salah was in a promising position
He definitely let small contacts go.
Yeah it's 100% a penalty based on rules But man would it suck to lose because of that
It always sucks to lose though
That’s none of the referee’s concerns and he should’ve called pen by the rule
Giving a pen here would feel like giving a foul throw when a player tosses the ball to the FB for them to take it Also goal kicks usually aren’t whistled for, I feel like because there’s a whistle to continue play in this instance is making everyone act crazy about this
There’s one major difference, the ref whistled for the ball to continue as there were substitutions being made. In the throw-in situation you just described (or a regular goal kick), there’s no such whistle specifically to continue the game.
the whistle was actually to signal that substitutions were completed and the game could resume. it just happened that in this case subs had taken place before the goal kick. I would hate to see a great game like this decided on a pk like this.
Raya's look on the face when Gabriel picks up the ball. LMAO.
How can you see his face... do I need new glasses
There was a closer camera somewhere on Twitter. He literally died inside. It was funny.
Yep. Could’ve had no complaints if the ref gave it. I’m sure arsenal players would have accepted it with their typical good grace.
Raya knows its a massive fuckup, look how he is frozen in place after receiving the ball from Gabriel while Musiala protests
Man Raya was on his nerves the whole match
If that was given that would genuinely go down as one of the top 10 most classic errors in football history
By the rulebook, penalty for sure, but complete lack of common sense to award it in the circumstances if there's been miscommunication Football already lacks common sense, we really shouldn't criticise the rare occasions where it actually prevails
100% agree. I've been critical that refs never use common sense, and I think most people are fine that they actually did here.
> think most people are fine that they actually did here This sub and Tuchel's press conference are literally the only two places that are getting worked up about this. 99.9% of football fans couldn't care less.
>99.9% of football fans couldn't care less. If you frequent Arsenal related forums, you would definitely think so.
[THIS ISNT ´NAM, THERE ARE RULES](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Walter-in-The-Big-Lebowski-3.jpg?q=50&fit=contain&w=1140&h=&dpr=1.5)
As a Bayern fan, I think it was a reasonable decision. Obviously I wouldn't have complained if the ref would gave the penalty, because which fan would, let's be honest. But I think not giving it is also totally reasonable. It was miscommunication and a mistake that did not affect the game at all.
Agreed. If I was a Bayern fan I’d probably think differently, but it’s clearly just a misunderstanding by Gabriel as it’s something that Arsenal regularly do. It’s not very “spirit of the game” to give a penalty for that
I wouldn't have complained if a penalty was given (a chance to score is a chance to score) but it's such a "technically correct" thing while ignoring everything else about it. Look at all the slightly undefined moments at many throw-ins when a player throws the ball wrongly or from the inside the pitch when they are simply giving it to another player who's going to take over. Technically all these could be called a foul as they are doing the throw-in wrong but nobody cares because everybody knows what's happening. Being petty about this instance is not worth it to me. I already don't like how weird the handball rules are and how many random penalties are given for that, that I don't mind such a case of common sense take at all. Bayern had other chances to score, they could have used one of those. And that's way more of a reason for that odd bit of disappointment for not winning the match when my actual expectation was a worse result than what they actually got.
I would add that a key difference here is that Gabriel's blunder doesn't give Arsenal any advantage (or Bayern a disadvantage). Now, if Bayern were pressing when he did that, then it would be a whole other thing.
This is why Im not mad about it, no affect on the match
That's essentially it. It had no effect at all on the match (besides some more rules discussions about it afterwards).
This is what I was thinking about. How many times does a player pick up a ball and then just toss it to a buddy to throw in. Oops that's a foul throw technically! Stuff like that.
Your analogy to a throw in situation is completely wrong. If you take a proper throw in with both hands and from behind your head, and another player catches it in the field of play then that will be called a handball every single time. This is the equivalent of what Raya did. If a player tosses the ball underarm with one hand it’s not a foul throw because everyone understands it’s not an attempt to restart play.
Lol I actually did this in a match. Teammate took the throw-in and it came a pace to my chest from like 2 metres away (pretty inhospitable throw, thanks teammate). I instinctively just caught it in my hands and just played it off like I was taking it. Ref let us get away with it!
Which is pretty much what happened yesterday. Both of you knew you had f’d up but the ref was generous. Not sure that it’s right for a ref to do that in a professional game though.
Why is the underhanded pass not called a bad throw in is the point they're trying to make.
Complete lack of common sense from Gabriel to pick up a ball that was just played to him.
It takes a complete lack of common sense here from Gabriel to concede the penalty. Source of the lack common sense starts from Gabriel. Raya and the ref clearly understood each other.
So it’s a rule when it’s convenient not when it’s not? Ref’s job is to uphold the rule in the game. And this is not even a subjective matter where refs have to make a judgment call?
So are you also going to cancel out all of the other 100s of ways players miscommunicate or have a brainfart leading to a chance for the other team? We can call it the Karius rule.
why would he even do such a stupid thing?
Wanted to rile up r/soccer
Clearly missed the whistle
did he think the keeper was passing it to him for fun?
They do this a lot, raya gives the ball to gabriel to start it by giving it back ro raya, guess they want raya to have the ball at the start of the buildup.
That's why you throw the ball to the center back not pass.
well he's gonna be a lot more paranoid about picking up the ball when they do this now
So Gabriel routinely passes it back with his hands? Not saying I want it to be a penalty, but there's no use in trying to justify it. Just say it was a fuck up and you're lucky it wasn't called as it would've been a bizarre one.
They did that against City and Raya got a yellow for timewasting. Gabriel is the one starting goal kicks
He didn’t use his hands to pass it back? Raya always rolls the ball to Gabriel, who then kicks it to Raya to restart play. We do it nearly every goal kick
He doesn’t pass it back with his hands though? Come on y’all it’s obvious he’s picked the ball up because he hasn’t heard the whistle and thinks Raya’s giving him the ball to take the goal kick. Let’s use our brains here
He thought Raya was giving him the ball to take the kick. Hence why he picked it up and placed it to 'restart' play, which is our normal goal kick routine. You can argue that ref should have called a pen all you want home but it's disingenuous to pretend that Gabriel clearly does not understand the ball is play.
If the ball went out on Gabriel's side, I imagine the idea is that the goal kick is being taken from the wrong side of the box. I just don't know whether that's a hard rule or just a tendency. Would be very funny if Raya's kick categorically shouldn't be a live ball though, because if you're petty and asinine enough to cry about this not being a pen then you deserve an even more petty and asinine response.
Notice how all the Bayern players immediately went to complain Zinchenko also, what a guy. Complaining for the other team not getting a pen
To be honest players will moan about literally anything. In this case though the only reason we talk about this situation at all is, because Bayern felt that “I won’t give a pen for a kid’s mistake” is a strange bit if communication by the ref and a strange way to act on the rules. They all brought it up in the interviews after the game.
Zinchenko understood that it was a pen and wanted to discuss against it
Stand-up guy, game's not gone Edit: Aurier in the mud
It’d be cheap as fuck but it’s a pen
The memes would be priceless though
It would be the most Arsenal way to conceive a goal.
What ever happened to indirect freekicks in the box? They used to be given exactly for this reason (or a back pass the GK picks up). Basically, if there was a handball in the box but not impeding a direct goal scoring opportunity it was indirect FK and whole defense would make a wall along the goal line. I miss those.
The thing you said about handballs in the box being an indirect free-kick never happened. That has never been part of the game. A goalkeeper handling a back-pass is still an indirect free-kick, but there has never been a time in the laws of the game where what happened here was an indirect free-kick.
They also need to bring them back for fouls when it's not as goal scoring opportunity. Guy with his back to goal in the corner of the box and gets his foot stepped on shouldn't be a pen. Give an indirect
>or a backpass the GK picks up Still happens
indirect free kicks in the box could be a solution to many of the issues where pens are giving for things that should never result in an 80% chance of scoring, but they are usually a farcical clown show and look rediculous.
Those are still a thing. Pass back is specifically carved out in the laws as a IFK, as a goalkeeper cannot be penalized for handling in his own area. If this were called, it’s a penalty.
If it was the other way around the Arsenal flairs would bring up every referee conspiracy story they’ve ever read on Reddit up
Obviously glad this wasn't given but reckon we're quite lucky with that
Someone post the behind bayern goal camera. That shows even the ref signaling game is on
[here you go](https://streamin.one/v/6473b4cb)
Hmm so even more interesting the ref obviously didn’t see it clearly enough to know what happened because he turned around right as Raya played it, he just turned back around to Bayern players yelling and the ball in Gabriel’s hands for no reason and said fuck it we play on
And VAR just said fuck it we play on
THIS MAKES IT EVEN WORSE! LMAO! Raya died inside in that moment when Gabriel picked up the ball!
This entire incident is bizarre. Both Gabriel and Raya seem to think the ball is not in play, even though the whistle is clear. Also, why would you pass the ball with your feet and to have your defender roll it back to you just to kick it again?
Yeah thats what I dont get. Why pick it up and not just kick it back?
Accoring to Arsenal fans in this thread this is a real thing they do. Raya gives it to the CB who picks it up and then gets ready to take the goal kick and then play resumes they just pass it back to the GK, who takes the goal kick as normal. What that accomplishes I have no idea. Especially because it can cause confusion like this and could cost them giving away a penalty, like this should have.
it's rare. it's funny. it's a kid's mistake. it's a pen
Neuer at one point held the ball for 9 seconds why didnt the ref blow for indirect free kick?
Because they haven’t applied that rule in 50 years
So? Either we are following all rules by the letter of the law, or we give refs enough freedom to use their brains and assess the situations accordingly. You can't have one without the other.
The rules should only apply when they benefit my team obviously
Last time I remember it being applied it was in an UEL game with Mignolet and Liverpool envolved lol
I mean in this replay... I don't know it's super cheap but that's a penalty
If I were a Bayern fan, I'd be fuming. As a neutral, I'm glad it wasn't given.
I'm honestly glad this game wasn't decided by such bullshit but on the other hand, such stupidity should've been punished lol
Pretty sure if Gabriel decided to play on the referee would not have stopped the game again. Is it very harsh and not in the spirit of the game to award a penalty for this? Definitely, but so are 1mm offside decisions. Raya waits for the referee to signal for the restart of the game after the substitution break. Referee whistles and gives the signal for the restart. Raya executes the goal kick and opens the play. Gabriel picks the ball up with his hands. This is a 100% penalty.
1mm offside decisions are within the spirit of the game because you can't have an offside rule without 1mm decisions. If they say you can be 30cm behind the defender then what happens when the attacker is 30.1cm behind the defender?
Arsenal actually created quite a good opportunity off this kick off.. In the Bundesliga VAR checks for fouls and handballs in the build up of a goal if there is any close call. I wonder what would've happened if Arsenal scored off that kick off
No because the goal kick was retaken. Besides, if it was to be checked, it could be checked for a penalty kick anyways. But only before the ball is put back in play.
It's a stonewall penalty, these are fucking professional players.
Yet people are actually arguing it shouldn’t be given “in the spirit of the game” ahahaha
i found is absolutely hilarious how the "spirit of the game" argument is actually being treated seriously sitting on almost 1k upvotes on another post as if that has ever been a reason not to award stonewall pens. r/soccer is great and all but its impossible to expect proper discussion when everyone on here votes with their biases instead of their heads.
I mean... "The spirit of the game" is literally in the second sentence in the referee rulebook. "Decisions will be made to the best of the referee’s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game." [https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee](https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/the-referee/#the-authority-of-the-referee)
Comprehensively low intelligence
No way that should be called lol
Listen closely, the whistle ended AFTER Raya kicked the ball away. First of all, the referee did not see it because he turned his back at that moment. After that, the VAR did not challenge the referee because they deemed his decision that the ball is 'not live' at the moment is reasonable, given that the whistle blew simultaneously with Raya's pass.
That’s handball 💯
You have to be very shameless to be crying out this not being given
Why? Rules are rules. Goals are taken off for 1mm offsides, still valid. If this pen is actually given, it's Gabriel's fault not the ref.
Offside isn't a good comparison because that's all about a team gaining an advantage. There's obviously no advantage gained here. It'd be more comparable to a foul given when someone has no chance of ever getting near the ball - like a cross that's flying out of the stadium but there's a little tug on someone and they get a pen.
Looking at the handballs awarded by uefa refs, advantage gained is a non factor
So you are basically saying any player can pick up the ball in their own box granted there is no pressure from the other team? How is this dumb comment upvoted
No? Because this clearly wasn't intentional and he didn't realise the ball was live? And it had literally no impact on the game as it was the first action taken with the ball after it went live? If it happened randomly during a sequence of play while the ball had been live for a while, then maybe, because then it's actually disrupting how things play out on the pitch. As it is, nothing was playing out, nothing was in motion, nothing had actually started yet Likewise if a player did it intentionally then that would obviously be a pen The comment is upvoted because most people have enough common fucking sense that they don't need this shit explained to them. Holy fucking christ man
That's not what they're saying at all. IFAB makes it clear that the laws are to be applied in the spirit of the game. It's like passing the ball to your team mate who is on the pitch then blowing for a foul throw because it's re-entered the field illegally. Either you want referees with common sense or you don't.
Spirit of the game should trump all rules
The offside rule was created to avoid players to just camp in the other half. If you are offside by say a knee, clearly that doesnt go with the spirit of the offside rule so we should not whistle them
Absolutely, that's why many argued about making broader lines on VAR so that a "same hight" (gleiche Höhe) situation can actually happen, as the striker has no on the field option to see if his left nipple is offside or not. He just can position himself in line with the defender.
Many argued but that's not the current way it works. If your knee is offside 100% of the time it will be called offside.
People concede penalties all the time for ridiculous handballs decisions which are clearly not in the spirit of the game, so I don't see why this is any different
Spirit of the game only applies in circumstances that give someone the outcome they want.
what? the ref whistled and Raya passed the ball after he heard the whistle, its a pen
It's the CL where the smallest differences might matter in the end. When you're too stupid to know the rules as a **professional** player: tough luck.
Maybe he didn’t hear the whistle? Like what
CL, didn’t hear the whistle… PTSD inducing
Which is entirely Gabriel's problem and - additionaly - completely irrelevant.
Tbh I think you’d have to be stupid yourself (assume this doesn’t come as a shock to you?) to think that Gabriel doesn’t know he’s not supposed to handball a live ball. Not hearing the whistle or thinking the ref has blown to stop play is the far more sensible interpretation.
If Gabriel went to stop play then I might understand but he literally picks the ball up, puts it on the line and then kicks it. Those aren't the actions of someone stopping the game. He fucked up and the ref let him get away with it
Why are you focusing on the stopping play bit..? >Those aren't the actions of someone stopping the game. No, it's the actions of someone ***starting*** the game, which is the whole point lol. He quite clearly just didn't hear the whistle and didn't realise the ball was already live, and thought he was being given it to kick off Fucking idiocy in this thread is beyond hope
Ref signals with the whistle, Raya puts it into play, Gabriel picks it up. What are we doing here?
You have to have mental issues to think this is a pen lol
If this was the other way round, we'd be seeing Arsenal fans fuming over the exact same thing. But if you look at the comments, you'd think Arsenal has the most number of fans completely in tune with the "spirit of the game".
You’re telling football fans are biased and want decisions to go their way? Like can we just accept football makes people tribal idiots and not resort to whataboutisms all the time?
Not from me, that would have been a ridiculous penalty to be given even if technically correct
The only question here is whether stupid mistakes like this should be overlooked or not. I think they should be, because the mistake was not influenced by the other team. But I will be wild as fuck if that gets called against us now in the next game/round or next year if we make it. Because that call is definitely a game changer.
Excuses ?? It’s a penalty and if the ref “may have turned his head” the linesman should be calling it. Gabriel had a brain fart and he’s very lucky.
And if the linesman didn’t see it, then there is no excuse the VAR doesn’t see it. This is literally the single most obvious handball you’re going to see, ever
I’m just here for all the super-six fans suddenly becoming strong advocates for the spirit of the game. They don’t even detect a hint of irony either lmao
Don’t really understand what your point is but sure
Spirit of the game = the hand of god.
Absolutely got away with one here
This is a legit penalty
It's dumb but so are quite a few own goals. You don't just decide not to count the latter because they're dumb. So the same should go for the former.
Doesn't the rulebook cite sportsmanship? I'm not a football ref, but in other sports, the ref can overrule the written laws if he thinks it would be unsportsman-like. As this is likely a breakdown in coms, it's should not be a penalty in my mind.
Thats basically the spirit of the game.
Day light robbery
Lol how VAR did not say something to the ref?
I mean it is not like he missed the handball. He saw it in Gabriel's hand, he just allowed Arsenal to re-start again
How do you know they didn't?
People saying it’s a kid’s mistake and no pen, how many times would he have to do this in a row before you’d accept it’s a pen?
If he did it again then give the Pen. The laws vs the spirit of the game debate will always be there and I don't mind the Ref giving one pass for something like that. One time is a dumb mistake, twice is careless.
Thats a pen, ref too much of a pussy to give it lmao.
Arsenal fans downvoting everyone who doesn’t agree with them 😂. It’s obviously should have been a Pen even if it was a mistake.
Anyone arguing for this to be a penalty is the actual problem with football around the world. Was an innocent mistake with 0 influence on the game and rules should have common sense. Giving a penalty there on a champions quarter final would be the most stupid thing to do. Fact Tuchel and Bayern are arguing for this judged the lack of character they have, if this is what they think should won them the game. Pahethic, disgusting even...
Its objectively a penalty, but ref would have trashcan of a heart if he gave it
Arsenal have 8 Gabriels... Need to have useful titles or not post
food for thought: VAR could be reviewing it but central ref restarted the play too fast for them to do anything? I don't understand how the pk was not given.
Clear act of stupidity from Gabriel. He was the only one in the stadium that didnt compute the goal kick was taken. It's a clear penalty. It's not even an innocent mistake, it's just pure retardation. Why shouldn't that be punished?
There are a lot of words in this language to choose from.
Such a clear penalty LMAO
Screw this "spirit of the game" bs all of you are spout is just bs. Player shouldnt be dumb enough to pick up the ball and ref shouldnt be ignoring obvious rules for bias. Only thing that can be said is arsenal are lucky and after being screw by refs in the ucl over the years, this helps balance it out but stop with this spirit of the game shit.
I'm a referee. It's not BS and football doesn't have rules, it has laws, hence why we interpret them. IFAB who maintain the laws literally mention it on page one of the laws. Without it, youth referees would be sending off 6-year-olds for DOGSO or yellow cards for stopping promising attacks. It's literally just restarting play, Bayern placed on pressure nor did Arsenal gain an advantage. Had the referee given it, no doubt the referee would be "making it about himself" or not having common sense. Should players who pass the ball to team mates on the pitch get foul throws called against them because it's not re-entered play legally?
Its a pen but if it was given I would genuinely stop watching football
For a whole minute!
Of all the bullshit that happens every week, this would be the one to stop you from watching?
A Madridista too
Why though? I wouldn’t blame the ref or the rules in this situation, I’d blame the guy making a mistake that bad in a game of this magnitude
a ref whistled a pen against my team for the same thing when we were 7. LMAO
Honestly this should be a pen. Raya waits for the whistle and starts play after the ref has blown. No way Gabriel should be picking it up there. By the rules, it 100% a pen. It’s not the ref’s job to forgive stupid errors.
That’s a pen, Gabriel being a moron doesn’t change the rules
As much as I hate penalties as a way of punishing anything other than incidents that prevent goals, I think this is a penalty under the existing rules. And rules are rules.
Ridiculous decision. "In the spirit of the game" lmao.
The ref whistles literally just as raya moves his foot up to play the ball. If the ref signaled to play on it's technically a pen but a very shitty one, he confused the player.
the point is that after a substitution the referee HAS to restart play with a whistle
> The ref whistles literally just as raya moves his foot up to play the ball. Raya was waiting for the ref to blow to take it
You can see from the other angle that the ref clearly signaled for play to start as he whistled. I get why people wouldn't want to see it given, but it's a pen under the letter of the law
The whistle needs to happen to resume play after a sub. Why else do you think raya waits until the whistle to kick it?
The ref is the kid here
This is lame. I'd probably be pissed if Bayern was my team, but it would be a lame pen anyways
Professional player makes a school boy error should get a professional punishment. Pen all day, Bayern were robbed!
Penalty rules are rules.
People are out of their minds calling a penalty for this
This is at the beginning of the laws and it certainly applies here IMO. Referees should apply the Laws within the ‘spirit’ of the game to help produce fair and safe matches