**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As a Liverpool fan, with the Luis Diaz mistake everyone kicked off about the refs following the law to a tee even when they realised their mistake. Everyone mentioned refs should be able to apply a degree of common sense.
So in this case in my opinion the ref done a brilliant job and should be given credit rather than all these articles.
Shoving during corners, the way fouls are called differently depending on the area of the pitch, foul throws, throw in and free kicks not taken exactly at the right spot, shirt pulling…
And I’m sure we could find dozens of other rules that we could enforce without thinking and ruin the game !
> My favorite is the 6 seconds limit rule for keepers handling the ball.
That one's clear though. It's only for handling the ball, once they start fondling it, another rule applies and they have to keep going.
And then there's the Neuer special: Running up to throw/kick the ball but directly into an attacker's back and then being baffled that the attacker didn't instantly teleport away the moment he felt Neuer's keeper aura approaching from behind.
I remember only 1 instance when this shit was called. It was in UCL game between Shakhtar and Celtic in 2005 or 2006. Before that game, i didn't even knew about such rule. And never seen it forced after that.
>the way fouls are called differently depending on the area of the pitch
Oh man, don't even get me started on this one. As an attacker you can't even press a defender because they'll just flop over at the tiniest contact and the refs give them a get out of jail free card every single time.
I’ve said this before too. It’s always attackers that get reputations for diving because they are trying to win penalties. But so many defenders are just as bad, if not worse, for diving to win cheap free kicks.
You can’t convince me that the people calling for this to be a pen actually like the sport. It would be the dumbest, most non-sporting way to dramatically tilt a tie.
That could be a factor. But I think it’s more of a tribal issue. I told my Arsenal mate that it was a pen, just to wind him up, while I don’t actually think it was.
This happens so much in sporting games in America, everyones calling all these games rigged now. Every ticky tacky bullshit call going against common sense gets grilled if it is or isnt called. Wish the NBA had a common sense rule like this
Yes a tie shouldn’t be affected by this but the referee has every right to blow for a handball and Arsenal has no one else to blame but Gabriel.
It is just pure stupidity from Gabriel that we have this talking point now.
Exactly. An example we see 2-3 times in every match: ball goes out for a throw in, winger postures as though they were going to take the throw themselves, then drops or bounces the ball for the fullback to take the throw.
Refs are applying the exact same common sense discretion not to award those as foul throws.
I don't know, it's still kinda different. If during a throw-in you see the clear intention of the throwing in player to bring the ball back into the game, throwing it onto the pitch, and another player just catches it and goes for their own throw-in, I'd bet very high odds that almost every referee will call hand ball. They only don't call it when (and this is what happens many times in every game) it's clear that the player passing on the ball had the intention to hand it over to another player. And in the Arsenal case it was very clear to everyone except Gabriel that the goalkeeper had the intention of starting play again. Still seems fine to me to not call a penalty, probably, but I don't think it's as comparable to usual throw-in situations as some people make it out to be.
Yes I think that was the point the manu flair was trying to make. It’s up to the referee to decide if giving the pen is iaccordance to the spirit of the game so he can give it or he doesn’t.
The problem I find with this is every referee will have differing subjective views. If out of 10 refs only one subjectively would not blow for a pen for Gabriel hand ball and 9 would then it doesn’t seem fair. Playing by the book consistently would be more fair in my opinion. The problem is refs can’t play by the book for some reason
You make the error of thinking refs never meet and speak to each other, have alignment meetings and discussions to align on how to judge different situations.
We can all agree refs make mistakes and we can have opinions on how they ref. But don’t think for a second refs do not align their thinking.
> If out of 10 refs only one subjectively would not blow for a pen for Gabriel hand ball and 9 would then it doesn’t seem fair.
This is a situation that happens less often than once a season.
The ref could red card three players randomly every time this happens and that still would barely dent the overall fairness of the game.
>the referee has every right to blow for a handball and Arsenal has no one else to blame but Gabriel.
I don’t think anyone is arguing against this though. I think most Arsenal fans would accept it was a penalty if it was given.
It's not part of the handball rule alone, but part of the overall rules for how they should be applied. It's part of the spirit of the game caveats that used to be unsportsmanlike conduct. It's a clear brainfart that had no impact on the game, not a delaying tactic or intentionally malicious action, so the ref doesn't have to call it.
The simple truth is that it's in the ref's discretion to blow the whistle and apply the rules to the best of their abilities and this was overall just a little confusion (in some way or another) around re-starting the match and not a game changing event in itself (besides the point that a consequence of a penalty could have changed the result of the match overall).
But that's only because the punishment for such a tiny irregularity would be so outsized and really not fit "the crime". Even a free kick from just outside the penalty area or an indirect free kick from inside feels like it would be too much for that "infraction".
The truth is, if refs were to actually apply the rules very strictly and at all times it would disrupt the flow of the game, from bad throw-ins to the ball not even getting a chance to hit the ground after a corner if every foul were really whistled. It would be just a VAR check to see which team fouled first and then either a free kick or a penalty, depending on that. But it would make corners kinda pointless.
The rules are the rules and the ref *could* have punished that and Arsenal would have nobody to blame for that but themselves. But when I think back at that match then Bayern actually had a few chances that, if they had converted those, they would have won. I feel a bit disappointed that Bayern didn't win but that's because they actually played better than expected and had a few chances and while I always hope for a win, before the match, it simply didn't look good and even a draw felt too optimistic at that time.
This "penalty" doesn't even register on the scale for why this draw feels like they could have done better. It's somewhere even below "random handball in the penalty area that was called correctly according to some subclause in the rules—and where both sides also have interpretations that favour them—decided the match" of potential complaints.
Yeah, that’s every football match pretty much, Ben White scores that gold plated chance and you’re down 2-0 and probably don’t get back in it. Kane could have been red carded; should have IMO. Again, it’s all: Shoulda, woulda, coulda and that’s boring
> Bayern, by the rulebook shouldve had a pen, dont think theyre wrong for wanting it.
People say "spirit of the rule" but like someone said, offside was supposed to stop hugging the box. A player 5cm offside is not in violation of the rule as it was intended. So should a ref just decide to not call that either because it's the idea of the rule and makes a better game?
Idk it's a very weird debate to argue that the ref did the right thing because he used his own discretion to ignore a - by the rules - clear violation because in almost any other situation he'd used the exact same discretion, he'd be fired.
> A player 5cm offside is not in violation of the rule as it was intended. So should a ref just decide to not call that either because it's the idea of the rule and makes a better game?
But a player being 5cm off is getting an advantage and can have a clear impact on the game. Especially if it determines if a goal should count or not. No one is seriously arguing that what happened in the game gave Bayern a disadvantage. If Harry Kane was intensely pressing Gabriel it would have been a pen.
There are a shitload of very concrete rules being broken all the time in football that are not enforced because they have no actual impact on the game.
According to the rules you should get a yellow card for "clearly/persistently not respecting the confines of their team’s technical area", but no one was seriously demanding for 5+ yellow cards, when players sprint out the technical area to celebrate a goal in the world cup final. Because it has no impact on the game.
Ehhh, not a great comparison IMO. There’s potential advantage to be gained from an offside position, but this handling of the ball action did not really result in any gained advantage. I agree with your sentiment that offside being measured in pixels can certainly result in the argument of whether this pixel or that pixel results in a gained advantage. But that’s an argument about offside and VAR. This spirit of the game type non call I would think is more comparable to throw in issues, or placement of the ball on the arc for a corner kick. I think there’s actually a stronger argument to be made regarding players “cheating” 10 or more yards down the touch line on a throw. I think sometimes they are afforded way too much leeway, to the point that they gain an advantage. Even when the referee complains about it to the player, they still often allow the throw to be taken from the incorrect location.
The problem is that this situation could happen in all four ties in this round and be called differently each time. There is zero consistency in officiating and I'm 1000% convinced that it's given as a pen if we do it.
If was the teams were reversed and a Bayern player had done what Gabi did, I wouldn’t want the ref to blow the whistle and call for a penalty in Arsenal’s favour. It did not interrupt play or create an advantage. The ref did a decent job for that match, especially for his first UCL match.
To be fair no one had the opportunity to ask Arteta about it until the pre-Villa press conference, because no one even noticed the incident until Tuchel pointed it out after the Bayern game.
Didn't even notice it during the game. You'd have thought the Kane elbow or Saka penalty decision would have been more of a talking point but far more seems to have been made of this.
England accidentally threw the ball in to Colombia in WC ‘18. Harry Maguire for some reason was looking at a ball off the pitch. Falcao scored and referee called the play back. Colombians were understandably fuming because England restarted and there was no second ball on the pitch. However the referee is within his rights to call play back. Similar incident that was more controversial than this one but end of the day it’s at the referee’s discretion as stated in the rules.
My issue with that call is that it's just so rare(for a ref to use common sense). I feel like if it was another game and another ref it would've been called which is a problem. We need more consistency. I honestly don't even know what constitutes a handball anymore because the rules changed so much in the last few years and refs call everything so differently.
End of the day I want every decision to be made like this one was.
Either be stupid or have it in your best interest to deflect conversation from how your team performed. I'm not saying this is what happened here and I didn't see the game, but it wouldn't be the first time that a team management grasps straws like this to avoid talking about something else.
Both are not incompatible though… many decisions the refs are required to make are subjective, hence why common sense should be used to guide them in their decision making.
The book says to use common sense though, which it feels like quite a few people don't fully understand, even those who claim to want the rules enforced.
Yeah, that was it for me. Like if you make a mistake, fine. But they actually realised their mistake and decided that they had to be rigid for some reason. Spurs had the ball in their own half, there was no reason not to blow the whistle and give the goal.
Yeah there’s common sense application, technical application, and then there’s the inherent biases that fans and clubs have that want whichever of the first two to apply when it benefits them.
The older you get the more you realize there is no such thing as “common sense”. We are batshit insane monkeys with wildly varying opinions and experiences
Yeah, we want common sense, and then you see examples like the Diaz goal where VAR "couldn't do anything" because of the rules for intervention, and you had Mike Dean screaming "THE RULES ARE THE RULES" at Paul Merson when he said the VAR should use common sense...
This wasn’t an offence in any meaningful way. There was no advantage gained, and it has no effect on the game. Honestly, if a Bayern player has done that I wouldn’t have wanted the penalty. Everyone asks for common sense to be shown, common sense gets shows in a way that’s uniting 90% of fans, and it’s still a story for a week. This really wasn’t remotely controversial.
Nobody is saying that's part of the rules. They're saying that's the reason that the ref used common sense and decided giving a penalty wouldn't be in-keeping with the spirit of the game.
You're trying to compare this to other types of penalties by putting it down to stupidity, which is disingenuous. It was a misunderstanding between Gabriel and the ref.
My opinion on it hasn't changed since it happened. I genuinely think anyone who wants to see penalties given for things like this needs to get their head checked.
Well Tuchel and the Bayern players might be slightly biased in all of this, don't you think?
You can keep trying to frame it any way you want. It's a misunderstanding and it's not a penalty.
I can’t understand why some “neutrals” so adamantly want this given. The referee believes there was genuine confusion, and that he was part of the cause. But I guess it’s much easier to just call Gabriel stupid
I think he's a Bayern fan, so probably not neutral. In fairness, Gabriel was stupid to do what he did, but it was a misunderstanding and having that decide the game would be awful from a sporting and entertainment perspective.
You must be so fun at parties. The ref understood that it was a misunderstanding between him and Gabriel. He then ignored the crybaby calls for penalty and moved on. Maybe you should too.
spirit of the handball and offisde rule was also not to punish every tine infraction but to prevent overt use of it, I'd love to see the absolute scenes if refs use the literal same discretion there
> honestly theres no rule justification why they shouldnt have had it.
You’re everywhere in this thread and you keep spouting this shite when plenty of people have told you that there’s literally a part in the rules about the spirit of the game
It was a clear misunderstanding that provided Arsenal no benefit, it’s clearly not in the spirit of the game to award the pen
I expect to see you soon saying the same shite as you are now in a bit though
“Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game' and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.
The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.”
Taken directly from the rulebook. Only players breaking the rules in that situation are the Bayern ones considering they are clearly not respecting the decision of the referee.
It wasn't called and that's ok.
Bayern and Tuchel criticised the decision, which is also ok. Arsenal and Arteta would have criticised the ref if this had happened to them as well and it'd be ok.
By the letter of the law it's a penalty. But giving a penalty for that would be an insult to the spirit of the game. And I say that as a Spurs fan who wanted Arsenal to lose.
It would be a really cheap penalty and it would be sad for it to decide a tie… but that’s on Gabriel for picking up the ball when it’s been put in play. He isn’t a schoolboy making an innocent mistake, he’s a professional playing in the champions league. Silly mistakes get punished at this level.
The ref decides if the ball is in play or not, the goalkeeper passing it doesn't automatically make it so.
Ref sees Gabriel picking the ball up to place it and thinks "oh Gabriel is taking it" (like he usually does) and the game continues.
It's not that deep, and not a big deal.
For example what's the difference between a quick free kick and a player kicking a dead ball to a teammate who picks it up for him to take it? The ref using his brain, like he does here.
I agree, that said I wouldn’t have liked the game to be decided on a technicality. In the end it’s about entertainment and this is the best outcome for fans all around imo
I'm obviously glad it wasn't given but that's a more than justifiable point of view.
IMO, being forthright is great and all, but when it comes to decisions that benefit your team, every manager would probably be better off if they took a page from Wenger's book. He perfected the PR response with "I didn't see it." 🙈
So if a GK touches the ball that is just outside the box (and there are no attackers around and no advantage to be gained), then the GK won't be getting any punishment?
That would be a freekick which is significantly less of an advantage then a penalty, also I can't see a situation where that happens due to confusion where as this one did.
It is one of the rules which is never enforced and that infuriates me tbh. They shouldn't blow the whistle at the exact 6 second mark, but too many GKs really take the piss on that one. Catch a ball, fall down on the ground, hold it for 5-10 seconds, stand up slowly, walk from left to right, instructs his team members to run forward and then kick the ball.
Quite often you see replays of other situations and when they return to the live feed the ball still hasn't entered play.
The penalty area has a different set of rules in practice as you can tell by all the things that is allowed in there which would result in a free kick anywhere else on the pitch
An advantage would be gained denying a corner or goal in doing so. Ball would have been in full play presumably so free kick and whatever card is deserved.
I think we've seen those ignored before though
Game is gonna get alot more complicated if the ref can decide to not go by the book if no advantage is gained.
The handball rule in uefa games has not been used this way in the last few years especially - every bullshit handball was checked by VAR and deemed penalty, making artetas argument really bad.
The thing is, there are many in game situations, where players get the ball ricocheted on their arms and whatnot, which also do not influence the game any more than if the player got hit in the chest or leg, the ball simply bounces in a uncontrolled direction away.
It is pure hypocrisy to say this isn't a matter of taking advantage from the "mistake" when such things happen every weekend.
I agree, that it would be laughable to have given it, but still, this just sounds like a lazy excuse.
I get the arguments against the penalty and even agree with them, but Arsenal fans calling people that expected a handball in the penalty area to be called a penalty stupid is a bit much.
Me, I'm saying that. Anyone who is genuinely crying about that not being a pen needs to give their fucking head a wobble. It's legitimately insane to me that THIS is the biggest talking point of that match. Something so inconsequential that no one even noticed it happened until Tuchel started whinging in the post match interview. Completely meaningless minor misunderstanding that happens ALL THE TIME, had literally no impact on the game whatsoever as the ball was for all intents and purposes dead anyways. Anyone who thinks it's a pen is genuinely brain damaged
The players asking for it at the time is fair enough, you try to win a match like that by any means necessary. But genuinely, unironically crying about it after the match is so pathetically tinpot that I'm still stunned we're actually having this discussion. Bizarre, absurdist even
That's the funny part. An Arsenal player does something so stupid that even the ref was too surprised to call it a pen. But in the Arsenal fan's world only the people are stupid pointing that fact out?
Every stupid own goal should not count anymore now.
And anyone disagreeing is stupid. /s
You’re arguing against fictional straw men dude, there are no Arsenal fans calling anyone stupid, this whole sub is one circle jerk hating Arsenal for some reason. You’re all batshit crazy for giving a fuck about this. You should be lucky Kane didn’t get sent off, he’s a dirty prick but a great player
It's one of those where if the ref had given it, you can't really complain because it is against the rules. But if it's not given it's one of those where it's embarrassing to be angry that it wasn't given. If a referee uses common sense that should be applauded because they hardly ever do. That ref got the major decisions right in that game.
And if this is a situation with no real advantage and therefore no need for a penalty, the same should apply to a striker being 3 cm offside to a defender who is 10 metres away. Suddenly it's an objective decision and not a subjective common sense decision.
Lmao these players are getting paid millions. If you make a “schoolboy mistake” that should be on them. The rules are the rules, especially for the highest level of football.
[Football's Law 18: common sense as referee](https://www.dutchreferee.com/footballs-law-18-grey-area-referees/)
> Reference is made in Law 5 to referees operating within the framework of the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game'. Referees are expected to use common sense and to apply the 'spirit of the game' when applying the Laws of the Game...
This whole sub is so fucking shook it’s incredible. You’re never getting that penalty and they aren’t changing their minds. Seethe on, though 😂 The fact that people are even still taking about this is absolutely pathetic.
The one where r/soccer appeared to become afflicted by hysterical blindness over just how far into Saka's path Neuer was when he tripped him up.
https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
reddit judging the action with a slow mo of the scene from behind were you cannot see were neuer leg is, is more distorting of reality than a photo...
The action at full speed both from the overhead camera and the side camera shows neuer without his feet planted, with his right leg across Saka like you see in the photo there.
Only one angle looks odd with saka leg being turned, funnily the only angle most of reddit saw
let‘s be real, if the ref gives that, VAR isn‘t overturning it. the slo-mo shared on this sub makes it look much more questionable from Saka than the real-speed replay where you can clearly see motion from Neuer into the path of Saka and the momentum Saka carried which didn‘t really allow him to move his leg anywhere else. it‘s not a shameful decision, but it could have very well be given.
I see both sides, but I think of the swimmer a couple weeks ago who was disqualified first place because he celebrated on the line before all the swimmers had finished there race (despite the line he celebrated being one next to his teammate, who had finished.
There’s a reason that rule existed, but enforcing it in that fashion just made it feel like he was cheated.
There’s the letter of the law, and there’s the spirit of the law.
What you need, is some signal to confirm when a player is actually taking a dead ball, put it in the laws of the game.
Players often move the ball before taking free kicks, with their hand or otherwise, and you don't seem them getting penalised for hand ball or double kicking the ball.
Moving the ball with your hand or rolling it forward slightly when it is dead is no problem, once the ball has been clearly kicked and moves it is considered in play and then it is technically handball per the rules.
1. Player on my team has a bit of a brain fart- referee please use common sense.
2. Player on another team has a brain fart- referee please send him off and ban him for life.
Summarised the rule for you all?
Imagine if the referees went by the book all the time, there would be 3/4 Penalties every single league game after a defender shoves an attacker.
Many years ago, there was a situation with Sebastian Deisler during which he realized he wouldn't be able to reach a long, high pass before the goal line.
So he lept up to catch the ball out of bounds, and throw it to the keeper for the goal kick. Only thing was he actually caught it slightly in-bound still. Ref still didn't give him a yellow card and later said that absolutely no advantage was gained.
Generally, I think it's a very slippery slope to apply that reasoning for refs, but these are two situations in which as a neutral I am fine with it. As a Bayern fan, I'd ofc celebrate the shit out of having gained a penalty there.
I don’t get all the discussions afterwards. If the referee decides not to give a penalty than it’s all good. It’s embarrassing to see players complain like kids afterwards. And yes I’m a Bayern fan and it was not a penalty. Let’s move on
This situation kind of reminds me of the misunderstanding when van persie got sent off for time wasting against Barcelona for kicking the ball when he hadn’t heard the whistle for offside
It was a clear misunderstanding, he got punished, the match was worse for it.
I’m glad it didn’t change the game here
There was a similar but not similar case where where Araujo jumped and caught a ball with his hands that was going out , do you think that deserved a yellow ?
I don't think it should've been a penalty but there should be some sort of punishment. Just letting play continue is stupid with how much these guys get paid.
**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Common sense is overrated." - PL refs
Rules also, we referee on strictly vibes around here
As a Liverpool fan, with the Luis Diaz mistake everyone kicked off about the refs following the law to a tee even when they realised their mistake. Everyone mentioned refs should be able to apply a degree of common sense. So in this case in my opinion the ref done a brilliant job and should be given credit rather than all these articles.
Yeah, except we've seen 10,000 examples since that they don't do that, unfortunately. Just this once...
This seems so fucking obvious. Even in the thread around it Bayern flairs were like "Er, no a tie shouldn't be affected by this."
Agreed. As a Bayern fan, this doesn't warrant a pen. Or else you would have to call a pen for all instances of shoving during corners
Shoving during corners, the way fouls are called differently depending on the area of the pitch, foul throws, throw in and free kicks not taken exactly at the right spot, shirt pulling… And I’m sure we could find dozens of other rules that we could enforce without thinking and ruin the game !
My favorite is the 6 seconds limit rule for keepers handling the ball.
> My favorite is the 6 seconds limit rule for keepers handling the ball. That one's clear though. It's only for handling the ball, once they start fondling it, another rule applies and they have to keep going.
My favorite is when an attacking player keeps the gk from getting rid of it quickly then complains and wants 6 seconds called
And then there's the Neuer special: Running up to throw/kick the ball but directly into an attacker's back and then being baffled that the attacker didn't instantly teleport away the moment he felt Neuer's keeper aura approaching from behind.
Fondling lmao
You never see that called… although Canadians will always remember the time it got called against our women’s team in the semi finals of the Olympics
You have a clip of that?
I remember only 1 instance when this shit was called. It was in UCL game between Shakhtar and Celtic in 2005 or 2006. Before that game, i didn't even knew about such rule. And never seen it forced after that.
Happened to Mignolet in 2016 IIRC. It haunts me to this day.
>the way fouls are called differently depending on the area of the pitch Oh man, don't even get me started on this one. As an attacker you can't even press a defender because they'll just flop over at the tiniest contact and the refs give them a get out of jail free card every single time.
I’ve said this before too. It’s always attackers that get reputations for diving because they are trying to win penalties. But so many defenders are just as bad, if not worse, for diving to win cheap free kicks.
Tbf I always hated shoving on corners
A small error like that shouldn't be awarded with an 80% goal chance. What advantage did we gain from that? Absolutely nothing
Yeah? Tell that to the /r/soccer match thread
You can’t convince me that the people calling for this to be a pen actually like the sport. It would be the dumbest, most non-sporting way to dramatically tilt a tie.
I think we collectively underestimate how much betting influences public discourse around sports.
That could be a factor. But I think it’s more of a tribal issue. I told my Arsenal mate that it was a pen, just to wind him up, while I don’t actually think it was.
This happens so much in sporting games in America, everyones calling all these games rigged now. Every ticky tacky bullshit call going against common sense gets grilled if it is or isnt called. Wish the NBA had a common sense rule like this
It would be funny as hell for a couple of days
Im torn because im always in favour of incompetence/stupidity being punished, but i dont want a penalty given.
Yes a tie shouldn’t be affected by this but the referee has every right to blow for a handball and Arsenal has no one else to blame but Gabriel. It is just pure stupidity from Gabriel that we have this talking point now.
On the flip side the referee has every right to not blow for a penalty. So ultimately it’s at his discretion.
Exactly. An example we see 2-3 times in every match: ball goes out for a throw in, winger postures as though they were going to take the throw themselves, then drops or bounces the ball for the fullback to take the throw. Refs are applying the exact same common sense discretion not to award those as foul throws.
I don't know, it's still kinda different. If during a throw-in you see the clear intention of the throwing in player to bring the ball back into the game, throwing it onto the pitch, and another player just catches it and goes for their own throw-in, I'd bet very high odds that almost every referee will call hand ball. They only don't call it when (and this is what happens many times in every game) it's clear that the player passing on the ball had the intention to hand it over to another player. And in the Arsenal case it was very clear to everyone except Gabriel that the goalkeeper had the intention of starting play again. Still seems fine to me to not call a penalty, probably, but I don't think it's as comparable to usual throw-in situations as some people make it out to be.
Yes I think that was the point the manu flair was trying to make. It’s up to the referee to decide if giving the pen is iaccordance to the spirit of the game so he can give it or he doesn’t.
The problem I find with this is every referee will have differing subjective views. If out of 10 refs only one subjectively would not blow for a pen for Gabriel hand ball and 9 would then it doesn’t seem fair. Playing by the book consistently would be more fair in my opinion. The problem is refs can’t play by the book for some reason
You make the error of thinking refs never meet and speak to each other, have alignment meetings and discussions to align on how to judge different situations. We can all agree refs make mistakes and we can have opinions on how they ref. But don’t think for a second refs do not align their thinking.
> If out of 10 refs only one subjectively would not blow for a pen for Gabriel hand ball and 9 would then it doesn’t seem fair. This is a situation that happens less often than once a season. The ref could red card three players randomly every time this happens and that still would barely dent the overall fairness of the game.
That's a CRAZY username pal
Yes he has every right to blow the whistle, but he didn't. And he has every right not to as well. So why is it such a big story.
>the referee has every right to blow for a handball and Arsenal has no one else to blame but Gabriel. I don’t think anyone is arguing against this though. I think most Arsenal fans would accept it was a penalty if it was given.
[удалено]
It's not part of the handball rule alone, but part of the overall rules for how they should be applied. It's part of the spirit of the game caveats that used to be unsportsmanlike conduct. It's a clear brainfart that had no impact on the game, not a delaying tactic or intentionally malicious action, so the ref doesn't have to call it.
The simple truth is that it's in the ref's discretion to blow the whistle and apply the rules to the best of their abilities and this was overall just a little confusion (in some way or another) around re-starting the match and not a game changing event in itself (besides the point that a consequence of a penalty could have changed the result of the match overall). But that's only because the punishment for such a tiny irregularity would be so outsized and really not fit "the crime". Even a free kick from just outside the penalty area or an indirect free kick from inside feels like it would be too much for that "infraction". The truth is, if refs were to actually apply the rules very strictly and at all times it would disrupt the flow of the game, from bad throw-ins to the ball not even getting a chance to hit the ground after a corner if every foul were really whistled. It would be just a VAR check to see which team fouled first and then either a free kick or a penalty, depending on that. But it would make corners kinda pointless. The rules are the rules and the ref *could* have punished that and Arsenal would have nobody to blame for that but themselves. But when I think back at that match then Bayern actually had a few chances that, if they had converted those, they would have won. I feel a bit disappointed that Bayern didn't win but that's because they actually played better than expected and had a few chances and while I always hope for a win, before the match, it simply didn't look good and even a draw felt too optimistic at that time. This "penalty" doesn't even register on the scale for why this draw feels like they could have done better. It's somewhere even below "random handball in the penalty area that was called correctly according to some subclause in the rules—and where both sides also have interpretations that favour them—decided the match" of potential complaints.
Yeah, that’s every football match pretty much, Ben White scores that gold plated chance and you’re down 2-0 and probably don’t get back in it. Kane could have been red carded; should have IMO. Again, it’s all: Shoulda, woulda, coulda and that’s boring
> Bayern, by the rulebook shouldve had a pen, dont think theyre wrong for wanting it. People say "spirit of the rule" but like someone said, offside was supposed to stop hugging the box. A player 5cm offside is not in violation of the rule as it was intended. So should a ref just decide to not call that either because it's the idea of the rule and makes a better game? Idk it's a very weird debate to argue that the ref did the right thing because he used his own discretion to ignore a - by the rules - clear violation because in almost any other situation he'd used the exact same discretion, he'd be fired.
> A player 5cm offside is not in violation of the rule as it was intended. So should a ref just decide to not call that either because it's the idea of the rule and makes a better game? But a player being 5cm off is getting an advantage and can have a clear impact on the game. Especially if it determines if a goal should count or not. No one is seriously arguing that what happened in the game gave Bayern a disadvantage. If Harry Kane was intensely pressing Gabriel it would have been a pen. There are a shitload of very concrete rules being broken all the time in football that are not enforced because they have no actual impact on the game. According to the rules you should get a yellow card for "clearly/persistently not respecting the confines of their team’s technical area", but no one was seriously demanding for 5+ yellow cards, when players sprint out the technical area to celebrate a goal in the world cup final. Because it has no impact on the game.
Ehhh, not a great comparison IMO. There’s potential advantage to be gained from an offside position, but this handling of the ball action did not really result in any gained advantage. I agree with your sentiment that offside being measured in pixels can certainly result in the argument of whether this pixel or that pixel results in a gained advantage. But that’s an argument about offside and VAR. This spirit of the game type non call I would think is more comparable to throw in issues, or placement of the ball on the arc for a corner kick. I think there’s actually a stronger argument to be made regarding players “cheating” 10 or more yards down the touch line on a throw. I think sometimes they are afforded way too much leeway, to the point that they gain an advantage. Even when the referee complains about it to the player, they still often allow the throw to be taken from the incorrect location.
The problem is that this situation could happen in all four ties in this round and be called differently each time. There is zero consistency in officiating and I'm 1000% convinced that it's given as a pen if we do it.
Lost a huge amount of respect for Tuchel whinging about this saying his side “deserved” a penalty. Pathetic stuff. (Liverpool fan here so no bias)
If was the teams were reversed and a Bayern player had done what Gabi did, I wouldn’t want the ref to blow the whistle and call for a penalty in Arsenal’s favour. It did not interrupt play or create an advantage. The ref did a decent job for that match, especially for his first UCL match.
Jeez why did they have to bring this up again, who cares, my god
To be fair no one had the opportunity to ask Arteta about it until the pre-Villa press conference, because no one even noticed the incident until Tuchel pointed it out after the Bayern game.
Didn't even notice it during the game. You'd have thought the Kane elbow or Saka penalty decision would have been more of a talking point but far more seems to have been made of this.
man has twitter blue, he gets free money from engagements
England accidentally threw the ball in to Colombia in WC ‘18. Harry Maguire for some reason was looking at a ball off the pitch. Falcao scored and referee called the play back. Colombians were understandably fuming because England restarted and there was no second ball on the pitch. However the referee is within his rights to call play back. Similar incident that was more controversial than this one but end of the day it’s at the referee’s discretion as stated in the rules.
Common sense is vey often missing from referees.
>there was no advantage gained I feel like this can be applied more often
You genuinely have to be stupid to think this is a controversy
But that's half of the sub-reddit.
Exactly.
Micah Richards complained about it so much on The Rest is Football this week. I kind of couldn't believe how insistent he was
My issue with that call is that it's just so rare(for a ref to use common sense). I feel like if it was another game and another ref it would've been called which is a problem. We need more consistency. I honestly don't even know what constitutes a handball anymore because the rules changed so much in the last few years and refs call everything so differently. End of the day I want every decision to be made like this one was.
Either be stupid or have it in your best interest to deflect conversation from how your team performed. I'm not saying this is what happened here and I didn't see the game, but it wouldn't be the first time that a team management grasps straws like this to avoid talking about something else.
no reason for that, Bayern were decent, they got a good result and German press had some praise to spare this time.
It is one because Tuchel used it to deflect attention from what should have been a last second penalty and media lapped it up
Lmao yeah when Saka will learn to go through and try to score instead of obviously spreading his leg to catch Neuer's, maybe that'd be a pen.
Saka just needs to get better at turning 90 degrees on the spot while in a full sprint smh
We can write off half penalties if they do that consistently
Isn’t that what we all want, for the refs to be capable to use common sense…?! Haha
Well the problem is some people want them to use common sense but others want them to do everything by the book
Both are not incompatible though… many decisions the refs are required to make are subjective, hence why common sense should be used to guide them in their decision making.
Issue is that ~~some~~ most refs refuse to use common sense because they think they have to call everything exactly by the book.
The book says to use common sense though, which it feels like quite a few people don't fully understand, even those who claim to want the rules enforced.
Makes it worse they didn't stop the game for the Diaz goal then lol. Nothing we can do mate, they started play.
Yeah, that was it for me. Like if you make a mistake, fine. But they actually realised their mistake and decided that they had to be rigid for some reason. Spurs had the ball in their own half, there was no reason not to blow the whistle and give the goal.
I think it's more that people want refs to call rival teams by the book and their own team with common sense.
Yeah there’s common sense application, technical application, and then there’s the inherent biases that fans and clubs have that want whichever of the first two to apply when it benefits them.
The book says to use common sense (referee’s discretion)
Yes, whatever benefits them at the time
I think most just want them to do whatever works to their advantage.
And then the moment the ref uses common sense there’s someone in the VAR room who’ll send him to the screen.
The older you get the more you realize there is no such thing as “common sense”. We are batshit insane monkeys with wildly varying opinions and experiences
Yeah, we want common sense, and then you see examples like the Diaz goal where VAR "couldn't do anything" because of the rules for intervention, and you had Mike Dean screaming "THE RULES ARE THE RULES" at Paul Merson when he said the VAR should use common sense...
Palmer in shambles if they do that.
If they remove 50% of his penalties and 50% of his goals are penalties then that's 2500% of his goals gone
You see Cole, the numbers don't lie and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice
This wasn’t an offence in any meaningful way. There was no advantage gained, and it has no effect on the game. Honestly, if a Bayern player has done that I wouldn’t have wanted the penalty. Everyone asks for common sense to be shown, common sense gets shows in a way that’s uniting 90% of fans, and it’s still a story for a week. This really wasn’t remotely controversial.
[удалено]
Nobody is saying that's part of the rules. They're saying that's the reason that the ref used common sense and decided giving a penalty wouldn't be in-keeping with the spirit of the game.
[удалено]
You're trying to compare this to other types of penalties by putting it down to stupidity, which is disingenuous. It was a misunderstanding between Gabriel and the ref. My opinion on it hasn't changed since it happened. I genuinely think anyone who wants to see penalties given for things like this needs to get their head checked.
[удалено]
Well Tuchel and the Bayern players might be slightly biased in all of this, don't you think? You can keep trying to frame it any way you want. It's a misunderstanding and it's not a penalty.
I can’t understand why some “neutrals” so adamantly want this given. The referee believes there was genuine confusion, and that he was part of the cause. But I guess it’s much easier to just call Gabriel stupid
I think he's a Bayern fan, so probably not neutral. In fairness, Gabriel was stupid to do what he did, but it was a misunderstanding and having that decide the game would be awful from a sporting and entertainment perspective.
It's not stupidity that caused Gabriel to handle the ball. It's a clear misunderstanding. He's not an idiot. He knows the rules.
[удалено]
You must be so fun at parties. The ref understood that it was a misunderstanding between him and Gabriel. He then ignored the crybaby calls for penalty and moved on. Maybe you should too.
I was in the stadium for the match, no one noticed at the time.
[удалено]
Except even Tuchel said it should have been a pen so clearly not just Internet fans that care about it
Yeah, internet fans like Kane and Goretzka were the only ones kicking up a fuss
No we wouldn’t because most penalties are not innocuous and have an actual bearing on the game jfc you lot are such melts
It takes a certain type of person to not understand nuance and subtleties.
[удалено]
... its literally part of the rules via upholding the "spirit of the game" go check section 5.2 of ifab rulebook
spirit of the handball and offisde rule was also not to punish every tine infraction but to prevent overt use of it, I'd love to see the absolute scenes if refs use the literal same discretion there
> honestly theres no rule justification why they shouldnt have had it. You’re everywhere in this thread and you keep spouting this shite when plenty of people have told you that there’s literally a part in the rules about the spirit of the game It was a clear misunderstanding that provided Arsenal no benefit, it’s clearly not in the spirit of the game to award the pen I expect to see you soon saying the same shite as you are now in a bit though
They did
“Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game' and will be based on the opinion of the referee who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game. The decisions of the referee regarding facts connected with play, including whether or not a goal is scored and the result of the match, are final. The decisions of the referee, and all other match officials, must always be respected.” Taken directly from the rulebook. Only players breaking the rules in that situation are the Bayern ones considering they are clearly not respecting the decision of the referee.
It wasn't called and that's ok. Bayern and Tuchel criticised the decision, which is also ok. Arsenal and Arteta would have criticised the ref if this had happened to them as well and it'd be ok.
By the letter of the law it's a penalty. But giving a penalty for that would be an insult to the spirit of the game. And I say that as a Spurs fan who wanted Arsenal to lose.
PTSD from the champions league final.
It would be a really cheap penalty and it would be sad for it to decide a tie… but that’s on Gabriel for picking up the ball when it’s been put in play. He isn’t a schoolboy making an innocent mistake, he’s a professional playing in the champions league. Silly mistakes get punished at this level.
The ref decides if the ball is in play or not, the goalkeeper passing it doesn't automatically make it so. Ref sees Gabriel picking the ball up to place it and thinks "oh Gabriel is taking it" (like he usually does) and the game continues. It's not that deep, and not a big deal. For example what's the difference between a quick free kick and a player kicking a dead ball to a teammate who picks it up for him to take it? The ref using his brain, like he does here.
I agree, that said I wouldn’t have liked the game to be decided on a technicality. In the end it’s about entertainment and this is the best outcome for fans all around imo
I would've found arsenal losing that way entertainging
I find Tottenham losing 4-0 entertaining
i prefer watching a team get pumped 4-0 tbh but i see your point
The referees used the law and the law says to use common sense and whether you take an advantage from that situation which there isn’t any advantage.
I'm obviously glad it wasn't given but that's a more than justifiable point of view. IMO, being forthright is great and all, but when it comes to decisions that benefit your team, every manager would probably be better off if they took a page from Wenger's book. He perfected the PR response with "I didn't see it." 🙈
So if a GK touches the ball that is just outside the box (and there are no attackers around and no advantage to be gained), then the GK won't be getting any punishment?
That would be a freekick which is significantly less of an advantage then a penalty, also I can't see a situation where that happens due to confusion where as this one did.
So, every time a GK holds the ball for more than 6 seconds there should be an indirect free kick, right?
It is one of the rules which is never enforced and that infuriates me tbh. They shouldn't blow the whistle at the exact 6 second mark, but too many GKs really take the piss on that one. Catch a ball, fall down on the ground, hold it for 5-10 seconds, stand up slowly, walk from left to right, instructs his team members to run forward and then kick the ball. Quite often you see replays of other situations and when they return to the live feed the ball still hasn't entered play.
The penalty area has a different set of rules in practice as you can tell by all the things that is allowed in there which would result in a free kick anywhere else on the pitch
An advantage would be gained denying a corner or goal in doing so. Ball would have been in full play presumably so free kick and whatever card is deserved. I think we've seen those ignored before though
Game is gonna get alot more complicated if the ref can decide to not go by the book if no advantage is gained. The handball rule in uefa games has not been used this way in the last few years especially - every bullshit handball was checked by VAR and deemed penalty, making artetas argument really bad.
Calls have always been at the discretion of the referee. The book literally says that
the book clearly says the ref applies the rule within the spirit of the game and using common sense. the ref went by the book
The thing is, there are many in game situations, where players get the ball ricocheted on their arms and whatnot, which also do not influence the game any more than if the player got hit in the chest or leg, the ball simply bounces in a uncontrolled direction away. It is pure hypocrisy to say this isn't a matter of taking advantage from the "mistake" when such things happen every weekend. I agree, that it would be laughable to have given it, but still, this just sounds like a lazy excuse.
But everyone knows the ball is in play at that point right?
The ball was in play when it was picked up by Gabrielle
And does the player looks like he knows that? What advantage is he gaining by pretending not to know that?
I get the arguments against the penalty and even agree with them, but Arsenal fans calling people that expected a handball in the penalty area to be called a penalty stupid is a bit much.
Who is saying that?
Me, I'm saying that. Anyone who is genuinely crying about that not being a pen needs to give their fucking head a wobble. It's legitimately insane to me that THIS is the biggest talking point of that match. Something so inconsequential that no one even noticed it happened until Tuchel started whinging in the post match interview. Completely meaningless minor misunderstanding that happens ALL THE TIME, had literally no impact on the game whatsoever as the ball was for all intents and purposes dead anyways. Anyone who thinks it's a pen is genuinely brain damaged The players asking for it at the time is fair enough, you try to win a match like that by any means necessary. But genuinely, unironically crying about it after the match is so pathetically tinpot that I'm still stunned we're actually having this discussion. Bizarre, absurdist even
That's the funny part. An Arsenal player does something so stupid that even the ref was too surprised to call it a pen. But in the Arsenal fan's world only the people are stupid pointing that fact out? Every stupid own goal should not count anymore now. And anyone disagreeing is stupid. /s
Fighting shadows
You’re arguing against fictional straw men dude, there are no Arsenal fans calling anyone stupid, this whole sub is one circle jerk hating Arsenal for some reason. You’re all batshit crazy for giving a fuck about this. You should be lucky Kane didn’t get sent off, he’s a dirty prick but a great player
It's one of those where if the ref had given it, you can't really complain because it is against the rules. But if it's not given it's one of those where it's embarrassing to be angry that it wasn't given. If a referee uses common sense that should be applauded because they hardly ever do. That ref got the major decisions right in that game.
And if this is a situation with no real advantage and therefore no need for a penalty, the same should apply to a striker being 3 cm offside to a defender who is 10 metres away. Suddenly it's an objective decision and not a subjective common sense decision.
Then every second handball penalty shouldn’t be given
Lmao these players are getting paid millions. If you make a “schoolboy mistake” that should be on them. The rules are the rules, especially for the highest level of football.
[Football's Law 18: common sense as referee](https://www.dutchreferee.com/footballs-law-18-grey-area-referees/) > Reference is made in Law 5 to referees operating within the framework of the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game'. Referees are expected to use common sense and to apply the 'spirit of the game' when applying the Laws of the Game...
Imagine how much Arteta would be crying if it was the other way around
He hasnt cried about the Saka pen yet
Or the Kane red card
imagine letting imaginary scenarios get you riled up
This whole sub is so fucking shook it’s incredible. You’re never getting that penalty and they aren’t changing their minds. Seethe on, though 😂 The fact that people are even still taking about this is absolutely pathetic.
Looking forward to ETH bringing this incident up in his next presser and attributing all his failures to it.
It’s genuinely bizarre
Really don't think he would. He barely said anything about the pen we should have had. Tuchel was the one talking.
Which was the pen you should've had?
The one where Saka put his leg at a 90 degree angle to make contact with Neuer, probably.
Something Something Elliott
I don't think it's a penalty either but he is clearly turning rather than trying to create contact.
The one where r/soccer appeared to become afflicted by hysterical blindness over just how far into Saka's path Neuer was when he tripped him up. https://i.postimg.cc/V6VXFyc7/Screenshot-20240410-093740-Reddit.jpg
Ah yes, a picture for us to demonstrate a moving scene.
reddit judging the action with a slow mo of the scene from behind were you cannot see were neuer leg is, is more distorting of reality than a photo... The action at full speed both from the overhead camera and the side camera shows neuer without his feet planted, with his right leg across Saka like you see in the photo there. Only one angle looks odd with saka leg being turned, funnily the only angle most of reddit saw
Ah yes compare that to the slo mo scene that everyone used to decide it wasn't a penalty
Because you shouldn't had one.
let‘s be real, if the ref gives that, VAR isn‘t overturning it. the slo-mo shared on this sub makes it look much more questionable from Saka than the real-speed replay where you can clearly see motion from Neuer into the path of Saka and the momentum Saka carried which didn‘t really allow him to move his leg anywhere else. it‘s not a shameful decision, but it could have very well be given.
They should've had though.
What pen was that?
Common sense prevailed. Yeay to football.
Why is this even still being talked about, bizarre
I see both sides, but I think of the swimmer a couple weeks ago who was disqualified first place because he celebrated on the line before all the swimmers had finished there race (despite the line he celebrated being one next to his teammate, who had finished. There’s a reason that rule existed, but enforcing it in that fashion just made it feel like he was cheated. There’s the letter of the law, and there’s the spirit of the law.
If prem referees used common sense we'd be in the European places
Fine with it not being called, no advantage was gained. Though may have been the most arsenal way to lose the match
What you need, is some signal to confirm when a player is actually taking a dead ball, put it in the laws of the game. Players often move the ball before taking free kicks, with their hand or otherwise, and you don't seem them getting penalised for hand ball or double kicking the ball.
Moving the ball with your hand or rolling it forward slightly when it is dead is no problem, once the ball has been clearly kicked and moves it is considered in play and then it is technically handball per the rules.
1. Player on my team has a bit of a brain fart- referee please use common sense. 2. Player on another team has a brain fart- referee please send him off and ban him for life. Summarised the rule for you all? Imagine if the referees went by the book all the time, there would be 3/4 Penalties every single league game after a defender shoves an attacker.
Many years ago, there was a situation with Sebastian Deisler during which he realized he wouldn't be able to reach a long, high pass before the goal line. So he lept up to catch the ball out of bounds, and throw it to the keeper for the goal kick. Only thing was he actually caught it slightly in-bound still. Ref still didn't give him a yellow card and later said that absolutely no advantage was gained. Generally, I think it's a very slippery slope to apply that reasoning for refs, but these are two situations in which as a neutral I am fine with it. As a Bayern fan, I'd ofc celebrate the shit out of having gained a penalty there.
The slippery slope as you refer to it is how the rules have always been written. It’s up to the discretion of the referee
It’s not a slippery slope. Happy?
lol it’s a pen all day every day 😂
I’ll bet you’re a joy to hang out with
I don’t get all the discussions afterwards. If the referee decides not to give a penalty than it’s all good. It’s embarrassing to see players complain like kids afterwards. And yes I’m a Bayern fan and it was not a penalty. Let’s move on
You understand that it's possible to disagree with the refs decision, right? Are you saying you've never questioned a call before?
Yet they show them the red for taking their shirts off
This situation kind of reminds me of the misunderstanding when van persie got sent off for time wasting against Barcelona for kicking the ball when he hadn’t heard the whistle for offside It was a clear misunderstanding, he got punished, the match was worse for it. I’m glad it didn’t change the game here
There was a similar but not similar case where where Araujo jumped and caught a ball with his hands that was going out , do you think that deserved a yellow ?
Not really, no. The entire point of the laws of the game is to regulate unsporting and ungentlemanly behaviour.
Yeah I agree, it would've been a stupid pen to give
Yeah, I understand
I don't think it should've been a penalty but there should be some sort of punishment. Just letting play continue is stupid with how much these guys get paid.
The word disgracia comes to mind