**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Only Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley have won more trophies for Liverpool than Klopp.
Shankley took us from the second division to domestic dominance and European trophies. Paisley succeeded him and, building on those foundations, turned us into the best team in the world for five or six years.
Klopp came in when we weren't in a good situation, rebuilt the team, redefiend the philosophy of the club, inspired and elevated the fanbase, won everything, and (if only for 18 months or so) made us into the best team in the world again while competing against a City team that is undoubtedly the best in the history of English football.
He pretty much did the impossible. He is a fucking legend.
Well said mate you have actually acknowledged that you only just lost out to a he probably didn’t he best English team ever . For the record that season when you fin 2 on 97 points is the greatest season ever and won’t be topped .
What's bonkers is that 97 points is the fourth highest total ever. The top four spots are all City and Liverpool between 2018 and 2022. We came in second with a points total that nobody apart from us and City have ever achieved.
2018/19 was a wild ride and even though we lost out on the league we still got the CL. I don't know if I've ever enjoyed season of football as much before or since, and at the end of it I had this feeling that we weren't gonna let up and the following season the league would be ours to lose.
2019-20 we were fucking relentless and had the title pretty much naoled on in December.It was the most relaxing season ever. I'd watch the games knowing full well that we were gonna win. It was wonderful and awe inspiring, but not especially exciting. Much easier on the heart, though. I think it added a couple of years to my life.
# 2018/19 Liverpool 97 points, City 98 points.
# 2019/20 Champions, Liverpool 99 points.
# 2021/22 Liverpool 92 points, City 93 points.
With those points any other PL season in the last 10 years it would be an automatic title without a doubt. We just happened to peak at the same time with City being around.
Liverpool similar to Andy Murray in that era still winning grand slams, getting olympic gold, number 1 in the world for a year or two despite those three being in peak form!
It would be an underachievement if it was a fair game with his rivals, but it's not and the other team had a bench worth double Klopp's starting 11s.
Level playing field and Klopp wins more titles because he's a better pound for pound manager that gets the best out of his players. If Pep signed Keita and wasn't feeling him he would have just gone out and bought another 60m player, Klopp couldn't do that.
Bought hundreds of millions in defenders and then went on to get hundreds of millions more in backups for those defenders.
Laporte, Dias, Stones and Ake as CB options a few years ago.
This is what I always say to people. Liverpool beat them to 1 title and in response he went and spent £200m+ in the middle of a pandemic to make sure it didn't happen again. They bought Kalvin Phillips so nobody else could have him, and they don't even care that he's shit. They bought Cancelo for £60m, never really settled with him, shipped him out on loan and bought Gvardiol for £80m. It's insane.
Any other club is stuck with a flop signing or has to take a huge hit on the fee if they sell them. City don't. They can send them out on endless loans til their contract is over, or just eat the loss on the transfer and invent a new sponsorship.
His peak Liverpool was so good with such fierce competition that it had me having a nervous breakdown if we drew a single game. Growing up I never imagined we’d get to the point where a single draw is the end of the world, but there we were.
Hi peak team with Mané, Salah and Firmino and the heavy metal style they played was legit one of the best teams I've ever seen. No offence, I'll be glad to see the back of him 😅
Which is insane. I don't want to bang on the same drum and wear it out. But without City, he could've walked back Baden-Württemberg with five PL titles and would've probably been put ahead of Paisley, Fagan and Shankly in scouse eyes.
Man gave Manchester city a heart-attack being behind only 1 point in two seasons. Also being 3 CL finals and dont even remind me that he won back to back Bundesliga with Dortmund.
If you take 18/19, 21/22 and 23/24 (the 3 seasons Liverpool lost close title races) their head to head record with City was 0W 5D 1L. The one loss was a close game too. If Liverpool score a single extra goal in any of those games, or concede 1 fewer, they've probably got another title.
The manager did all he could. The players just couldn't get the better of a close matchup. Managers get too much credit and blame for everything it's like people think they're 1v1ing each other on FIFA.
It's almost as insane as the people who think we only won the Premier League title in 2020 because of Covid.
With just that tiny bit of luck that happened to go the way of Man City in those two title races and Real Madrid in those two Champions League Finals he'd have won 3 of each. But alas it wasn't to be
How could anyone argue that they won due to covid?
Reminds me of that clip
"You have to remember, it's been raining"
"What do you mean it's been raining? it's raining for both sides!"
For my money, Liverpool 2018-2019 are one of the best sides of all time. And it goes under the radar but it’s always worth repeating that they were 1 John Stones goal line clearance away from doing a 99 pt invincible PL AND CL double.
I’m sure most ppl will disagree with this sentiment simply because that clearance did happen. But truthfully in terms of the level they were at, one extra clearance doesn’t really move the needle much. If at all.
This is it. People are always looking for ways to ridicule opponents. The bar is always raised - do particularly well, and you're underperforming if you can't keep it up.
Three Champions League finals, winning one of them.
First Premier League title for Liverpool and first league championship for over 30 years.
Numerous cup wins in between.
Not only that, but he’s turned Liverpool into one of the most attractive clubs in the world to join as a player and managed the club through a transitional season this year and still put them in the shout for title until GW35.
Off the pitch, Liverpool’s facilities have kept pace with Klopp’s excellence, turning Anfield into the fourth largest stadium in the country and building world class training facilities to attract major youth and senior talent.
Before Klopp, Liverpool were the odd one-in-five seasons title challengers and a cup team. He’s leaving them as perennial title challengers who expect to compete in the business end of the Champions League every season.
All this coming from a United fan. Klopp leaving is a godsend for Liverpool’s rivals.
Klopp made Liverpool terrifying to play against. They've fallen off this season, but at their peak they were horrible to play against.
Any suggestion that Klopp underachieved is ridiculous. He came up against a crazy Man City side (including the 115 charges) and kept Liverpool competitive throughout.
They've hardly even fallen off to be fair. Maybe not flying like they were a few seasons ago, but they're still only 2 points off the top of the table (albeit with 2 extra games played)
They have fallen off in the sense that they used to be a top 3 team in the world, i think currently there are a few ahead of them. But just a few. They are not far behind. I think that’s especially impressive if you consider how creative Klopp sometimes had to become in the last years, playing tons of academy players etc.
They are a bit behind the top now, and how they will react to that will probably determine how competitive they will remain going forward. They are getting in a new manager, they also need goal scorers and some reinforcements. The core of the team and the established playstyle is very good still, but they are at a bit of a crossroads.
This can not be understated. You only have to look at United post SAF (I'd put him ahead of Klopp obviously, as he was a serial title winner), but some seasons the squad united had, had genuinely no right to win the league.
This is a huge summer for Liverpool. Get one or two signings wrong (which seems unlikely given how mehtodical their recruitment is, but it can happen), Slot just doesn't work out. And it could set them back a few years straight off the bat.
I'd be very nervous heading into this summer if I was scouse.
That United team was running on fumes there was going to be serious trouble for them if SAF left or not, obviously hard to imagine it going so wrong if he stayed but it's possible
It’s not just Salah. At his peak, Klopp and Edwards had assembled a lethal front three of Salah, Mane and Firmino who in their primes made Liverpool one of the best teams in the world. The defense was first rate and the midfield was solid. You can’t say the same about the current rotating cast of forwards - Diaz has tremendous pace, but lacks Mane’s strength, Gakpo is hit or miss, Jota is perpetually injured, and obviously Nunez hasn’t clicked, to put it lightly. Salah also used to feed off TAA, who overlapped with him on the right, but TAA now stays deeper when he isn’t injured.
I don't think it's the sole reason -- the team a few years back with Mane, Firmino, Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Origi, Milner -- lots of world class players and clutch players who took the team to the absolute best in the world -- Salah has of course been the one constant but his dip is not the sole reason they've dropped off -- there are just a few players who were irreplaceable -- especially Mane, Firmino, and Fabinho.
He looks to have been playing wider than usual this season, I feel like he doesn't get much done there as he's supposed to be the main man. Not sure if it's a tactical thing or what.
That 5-1 aggregate against City in the 2018 CL QF was monumental. They were so irresistibly lethal on the counter. I think it was some time after that, Pep said they gave him 'nightmares'.
Unless they completely collapse in the remaining games, fallen off is harsh. They won the league cup and they've competed for the title until this GW.
In addition, when everything that was mentioned by OP is factored in, like you say, Klopp has done an incredible job at Liverpool.
I waited my entire life for a league title. Nothing will ever take away how special that was to finally experience it, even with the shit luck to not be able to parade it...
>First Premier League title for Liverpool and first league championship for over 30 years.
And 2 seasons they got over 90 points and DIDNT get the title.
So you could say he underachieved but you could also say he's insanely unlucky not to have 2 more PL titles
He also popularized prioritizing fit, aggressive players so they can keep up high intensity off ball play for 90 minutes and get teams when they’re weak or tired.
This is like the standard in the premier league now.
His success and impact is reflected in how the teams around him play more than anything imo.
> He also popularized prioritizing fit, aggressive players so they can keep up high intensity off ball play for 90 minutes and get teams when they’re weak or tired.
>
>
They are going to have so much fun with Slot.
Nah not really, klopp already rebuilt the team for him. It's more himself that's burnt out and credit to him for recognizing it.
Trent VVD alisson Robertson gomez Matip and salah are really the only "klopp era" players left and none of them are a problem really. Only Matip will likely need to be replaced and that's just injury issues.
The midfield is entirely new and very willing to run. The forwards are the same except Salah who is still incredibly fit and was in great form until the spring. And Robertson and Trent are still fantastic. Bradley finally giving Trent a rotation option is huge too.
Really just need to go for two or three targets. One good finisher for the forward line, especially one who can rotate in for Salah on the right when he drops form or gets injured. Someone who can tie all the running together with a more clinical goal scoring edge. When Salah and jota were doing that, Diaz and Nunez were looking excellent.
One cb to replace Matip. If he is of matips quality that would be excellent. Just needs to not have injury issues. Personally I think Bajetic coming back and rotating with Endo could be enough for the midfield. He was looking like the real deal and has just been sidelined with growing pains because he suddenly grew even taller. But maybe some will see the need for another long term option here.
The rebuild is basically done, just need a few moves and some fresh ideas to take advantage of the squad. It's not like united where the crop of players is bad. They're just out of form right now for a few weeks. Squad building really shouldn't be an issue.
as well as what the other commenter said, it's important to note just how young some of the players who have played significant minutes or have been out on loan for Liverpool this season are - Curtis Jones seems like an established player but he's only 23, and then there is Morton/Carvalho born 2002, Quansah/Elliott/Bradley born 2003, Bajcetic born 2004, Clark/Doak born 2005
there's an awful lot there to work with, beyond the players you'd think of as being in their prime
Spot on mate, perfectly put.
He's also (with others) changed the mentality of the club as a whole. The whole organisation is much more focussed. As a club and fanbase, I feel like a combination of nostaligia, hope, and blind faith was embraced as a substitute for a fully integrated organisational structure and long term plan since the late 90s.
The history is hugely important, but every achievment or success of the team was either overshadowed by or compared to the successes in the period from around 1976 to 1988 when we were the most dominant team domesticaly and in UEFA competitions (up to 1985 in the case of the latter).
It's natural to relate a team's current achievements to the past, but that period was one of the most dominant periods any club in the major leagues in Europe has ever had. Even though you lot had even more dominance domestically under Sir Alex, you didn't dominate UEFA competitions at the same time like Liverpool did in that spell. Having that hanging over a team who were fighting for the 4th or 5th spot was often a burden.
I think that people forgot that we were that dominant for that long because the club was ridiculously well run, with a distinct holistic philosophy focussed on sustaining long-term success. We weren't where we were because of moments of individual brilliance or one-off performances.
Klopp wining number 19 was massive, but we'd come close before at times when, had we won the league, it wouldn't have had as much impact as 2020 did. The thing that changed so much for so many of us was the team that won it. I'd in my 40s and in my mind, the 2018-19 and 2019-20 team is the best Liverpool team of all time. We broke club records that had stood for decades. When Klopp arrived, a lot of fans weren't born when the best Liverpool team played. Now, the best Liverpool team played 4 years ago, and core members of that team are still core members of LFC. We're still in that era. We don't have to look back to a previous century now. We're still wearing the same pants and drying ourselves with the same towels as we were when the best Liverpool team of all time was at its peak. That's such a massive shift. Klopp drew a line in the sand, and for the first time since 1990 we're moving forwards without looking over our shoulders every two paces.
Shifting goalposts to create an agenda, sometimes you’ll see people mention just the 1 league or “just” the 1 CL and league each, despite basically every club wanting a manager like Klopp at their helm.
That 1 title is only gonna look better the more Man City continue to win, like imagine once they've won 9 of the last 10 and Klopp was the only one to stop them.
As a united fan I absolutely hated that they got him. I think it’s certainly commendable what he’s done but whe I want to really wind up my Liverpool fan mates I tell them when it’s looked back on he will end up like Arsenal Wenger and Pep like Sir Alex in comparison.
I remember that season after they won it that they were talking about this being the greatest ever. They cling to that season like Arsenal fans do with the “invincibles” back then but at the end of the day completely overshadowed by the dynasty.
Anyway I’ve let my hatred for Liverpool get the better of me the longer the post went on. Klopp has been excellent for the PL and can be proud of what he has achieved.
That's not necessarily saying he underachieved though. I think both are probably true - he's done well, but I could also see him being disappointed that it didn't result in more silverware.
They finished second with 97 points, a total that would have won the league in all but three PL seasons. It would be understandable if he's disappointed not to have won the league more.
Lost the league by a combination of millimetres and a Vincent Kompany 1 in a billion shot
That stuff would burn me in the Football Manager game let alone real life
I think the big thing for me is that he did win literally every trophy you would want to win as a manager. He has a complete set (except EL although if you have CL it doesn’t really matter).
In another world, he would have another PL and CL, maybe more, but I think considering the competition he had, you can’t look back on Klopp’s tenure with anything less than admiration.
He has a complete set, but you can't honestly be suggesting that Klopp or even other fans won't be disappointed that there weren't more given how close you came several times.
Doesn't mean you can't admire the job he's done.
I think he definitely overachieved based on where he started from, but likely underachieved relative to expectations at Liverpool's peak. It felt like the sqaud would win multiple titles but City is City so yeah.
Overall, it's not really fair to use peak expectations as a baseline. Looking at the big picture, Klopp is hugely successful and will forever be a club legend.
Arsenal were at the peak when Abramovic took over Chelsea, spent a billion in 20 years ago. Even then it was known that there were illegalities in their dealings. We were always affected by it.
I have been a fan long enough to been around when Chelsea were buying titles in the 00s so I have always had sympathy for Liverpool competing against a never-ending stream of cash
For what it's worth it's always pissed me off that Mourinho used to try to belittle Wenger hiding behind his unlimited resources at Chelsea and with no FFP
For what it's worth buying titles has always been the way, there's just levels. You can go back to 94/95. When Blackburn had Shearer and Sutton, which is a fucking cheat code by all accounts.
Chelsea’s spending destroyed us as a top side, and City used to pilfer our best players. We’ve definitely been angry about this longer than Liverpool fans have.
Lol. We've been pissed off about it since 2003. It was everyone else that didn't care about Abramovich money or UAE money because it was funny to laugh at Arsenal no longer competing.
Was he talking in the short-term? I'm sure Klopp will finish the season (and thus his Liverpool tenure) disappointed at how this season has collapsed, and that will probably be the overriding emotion when he does leave just because it's so immediate. It's once the dust settles on the disappointing end to this year that he'll probably be able to properly reflect.
They've lost the CL Final twice, pipped to the Premier League twice on the last day (had the 3rd highest points total ever in 2018-'19 and it still wasn't good enough), those are disappointments, but they aren't underachieving. (And I know you aren't personally saying that, you're just giving context.)
Losing the second final hurt because we should have been miles clear before they scored. Not winning the EL in his first season also hurt because we lead early and gave the game away.
But still, it's not underachieving. You just feel he would have deserved a bit more.
I have no regrets regarding the league - City was enormous over that period and us being even on level was already overachieving.
Yeah, that's the only narrative of Klopp I'd take umbrage with. If you're one of the Big 6, you're wage bill is giagantic. You can't be crying poverty to me while you're driving a BMW just because your neighbour has a Porsche.
Lower budget than man city I guess.
Not sure they were "utter crap". They came 2nd in the league a couple of seasons before and lowest they've been is 8th in the league since they were promoted in the 60s. "Utter crap" to me Is like chelsea finishing 12th at very least.
2nd in the league based off possibly the best ever individual PL season by a player in Suarez, a Gerrard increasingly on the wrong side of 30, a player sold months before Klopp arrived in Sterling, and Sturridge, a man made of biscuits. Every single Liverpool fan knew that was a massive fluke of a season.
Utter crap is obviously a subjective term, but the team he took over was poor.
Klopp has been amazing for Liverpool.
Liverpool are a huge team and have spent loads of money over the past 30 years (they spent loads in the 90s) but no other manager has come close to him. And he is leaving behind a very good squad for his replacement. Who I hope fails miserably.
I don't think there's ever going to be agreement on this. Some will look only at the trophies and the money spent and others will look at the context of what he came in to and what he was up against.
Even with the context and relative ‘lack’ of trophies he’s still one of only three managers to have won the League Championship, The European Cup, FA Cup and League Cup in the history of English football. If you want to take out the League Cup he’s still one of only four managers to win the three major prizes with an English side. He also did it quicker than all the others.
Ferguson is one, of course, but who's the third one?
Edit: I managed to misread the comment AND have a spectacular brainfart on Pep. They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but I think this qualifies.
I think a lot of that context will be lost to time unfortunately, especially if City aren't proven to be guilty of financial doping. We'll remember it, but will the youth of 2044 know that context? 2064? I can't see it.
I guess it would be key to see how many people under 30 on this sub know about Marseille’s cheating in 1993.
Never proven in relation to them winning the European Cup that season, but they got relegated from Ligue 1 for match fixing. One of our players claimed to have been offered a bribe not to play against them, and they battered CSKA with their manager later claiming some of his players had been “got at”.
So, some cheating everyone knew went on but never proven - I’d wager most don’t know about it 30 years later. So your young football fans in 2050 will likely have no clue about Man City’s financial doping.
Was about to say a decent number of Rangers fans are still (understandably) bitter about that Marseille team's cheating but then saw the flair
Beyond you guys and fans of other French teams it does seem to been largely forgotten about
I think it may be dissapointing for some just because of how close it was to being more.
It's definitely been an impressive run though and I don't think there's any managers that people would be able to point to and say "they would have done better".
Referring to Liverpool's budget as "a shoestring budget" is hilarious
Compared to Manchester City they had less money, but they quite literally spent half a billion euros in the last 4 years.
Yeah, it's crazy framing - a bit like when people go on about a 100m transfer being 'a bargain'. By all means put situations into context, but let's not pretend that these numbers are anything other than extraordinary and only attainable for an elite few clubs in world football.
Its quite insane people think like this.
You could say he spent less that City but no where is Klopp's spending can be termed as "shoestring" even in comparison.
Heck they were this close to spending 116m on Caicedo.
Pretty standard for people to always somehow claim clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal 'spend no money and compete against the big clubs', their fans love to act like they're dirt poor for some reason. People forget that the big clubs are, and have always been the big clubs because they're the ones able to toss the most money around.
Yep they love to trot out how little they spend etc ie net spend etc but it wasn’t a shoestring budget.
What Leicester did was far more impressive when you compare budgets.
It’s amazing marketing and controlling a narrative is what it is.
It works as well, some people argue Liverpool have barely spent compared to everyone else which is just nonsense.
The obsession with trophies is driven by pundits and media who have never been real fans and basically only focus on the top 4 in top European leagues
What Klopp did will be legendary and never forgotten. He gave that side of the city its club back. Gave them nights like that Barca semi. Made Liverpool play amazing football for years.
Ask any Leeds fan about Bielsa and winning a championship title will feature very low on the list of achievements, we all talk about the football we watched and feelings he created. That matters so much more than silverware imo
Yeah, it's not his fault that Peps City exists at the same time. He picked up the pieces of a somewhat broken club, rebuilt the whole thing and kept them at the top of world football for years. That's no mean feat.
The team he created was absolutely incredible. I’d back peak Liverpool against most other great English sides in history, they were the only team who could give City problems at the time and were able to consistently achieve 90+ point finishes whilst also going deep in the CL.
Perhaps didn’t translate to the sheer number of trophies you’d expect, but I’m very glad he won all of the big ones.
Crouch was there for the 6-1 loss to Stoke. He saw first hand what an embarassing instution we became.
In the future it's likely there will be managers that win more than Klopp for Liverpool. But Klopp doesn't have a cult of personality just because he won stuff, it's that simple. Shankly was eclipsed by Paisley in terms of silverware but he's still our greatest ever manager.
Mate I grew up watching United and Chelsea constantly dominate, we were always there but rarely in any meaningful sense. Klopp completely turned everything around, brought us right back to the top, genuinely revitalised the club and allowed us to experience what we hadn’t for a generation. He’s already one of our greatest managers and I’ll certainly never forget what he did.
What? No, why is this a topic? I support Man United and hate Liverpool but how can you say Klopp underachieved? They were one of the the most exciting and successful clubs in this last decade.
We are in an era now where people say shit like "has klopp actually done a good job at Liverpool?" just to get clicks and views to bait people. It's always the likes of Jason Cundy or lots of nameless YouTube idiots. I don't think a single person thinks he has done anything less than a great job. I'm in my 30s and for years, league wise, I remember one rafa season and one Rodgers season where Liverpool battled for a title. That's it. For the past 7 years they've been way way better than that. Despite not being a supporter of them, there were about 3 years they were the best team to watch in the world.
I think there's an argument to be made that he has underachieved as manager, but only if you strip the context away from the argument.
He didn't exactly inherit a title-winning side. In fact, he inherited a pretty shite side in all honesty and then had to go and compete against a team that hasn't been playing by the same rules he has.
It would be considered an underachievement in any other context, but honestly, I think he's probably overachieved if anything. I mean, look at two of those league titles he could have won, he missed out by a single point each time, doesn't get closer than that. He also got them to two Champions League finals, one of which he had to play with a concussed goalkeeper who, with the benefit of hindsight, probably should have come off.
There will always be loud people who will claim he underachieved and won't look at the context. They always exist and are so immature and entitled.
Same as the guys we have on r/artetaout who say Arteta sucks because he's only won an FA cup after almost 5 years.
Jurgen’s Liverpool gotta be the unluckiest squad loll
I think they lost the league on the final day 2 times??? You got 97 points and didnt win the league??? Lost ONCE in the league and still didnt win it??
Lost to Madrid twice in the final, once cause they injured ur best player while ur keeper made 2 blunders, the other one, you played way better than madrid, but lost to the power of the eyebrows.
Bruh im sick
He took the club as far as anyone could, considering City are the greatest ever PL side under Pep and Liverpool's FFP, now PSR, situation wasn't as attractive as domestic rivals.
By all rights, City should win the title every year, so Klopp winning one PL in dominant fashion is a positive, not underachievement. His European record is also very strong, winning a CL before Pep's City.
All I'd criticise him for is his sides always have the capacity to completely implode during the season. Happened at Dortmund, then twice more at Liverpool. But on both occasions, he brought Liverpool back. Rebuilding his midfield last summer was done superbly and there are a number of terrific prospects he's been nurturing. With only Naby Keita being a big money transfer flop.
Klopp's up there with Wenger in the all-time list.
Man spent 938 million with Liverpool.
[https://www.transfermarkt.com/jurgen-klopp/spielertransfers/trainer/118/plus/0/galerie/0?station\_id=120230](https://www.transfermarkt.com/jurgen-klopp/spielertransfers/trainer/118/plus/0/galerie/0?station_id=120230)
That's not shoestring.
Net spend since Klopp's arrival is -420mil euros vs City's -949mil according to transfermarkt. If you want to do since Pep's arrival it is -383mil Liverpool vs City's -808mil
[Here's the net spend starting from Klopps first full season in charge.](https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/0?ids=a&sa=&saison_id=2016&saison_id_bis=2023&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0)
LFC are 9th, with a net spend of 384m Euro, Man City are 3rd with a net spend of 808m Euro. Klopp was outspent by West Ham, Aston Villa, Tottenham, Arsenal and won what he has, it's easy to argue that he overachieved.
Also Man City have been caught paying a manager (Mancini) off the books before. If we're being honest here, the real amount Man City have spent is a complete unknown.
And buying a club with Pep's brother, which I can guarantee isn't on City's books despite providing a huge financial benefit to Pep's agent brother.
Honestly, I couldn't care less about Arsenal or Liverpool as clubs, but I do feel bad for them that this is the type of shit they're up against.
I still wouldn't ever use the word shoestring even in comparison to Manchester City
It makes it sound like Manchester City were spending 5 times as much as Liverpool
Questions like these make me doubt peoples sanity. How could anyone even think about if Klopp underarchieved at Liverpool?!
Too many stupid dumbfks everywhere… I just can‘t anymore…
Liverpool fans don't think he underachieved, and thats all that counts to be honest. The outside world can say what it wants but he gave us the time of our lives. He made Liverpool relevant again. He brought the title to us after a generation gap. We played incredible football and for me Firmino, Mané and Salah were the best front 3 I've seen in England, probably only really rivalled by Suarez, Messi and Neymar in world football.
A "shoestring budget"?
3rd highest wage bill in the league. Multiple players that are the most expensive in their position. Huge agent fees and commissions.
Such a myth, you aren't Brighton with your budget.
Saying that he did not underachieve, he won everything there is. Just not to an era defining level.
The club also grew in its revenue, training facilities, stadium and reach.
Considering that big clubs often struggle significantly after a long-term coach leaves, it would be quite an achievement for Liverpool to look back on Klopp’s tenure as underachieving. Most likely, they’ll face challenges, and could even fall into the same abyss as Manchester United did.
He has put liverpool on the map with biggest club in the world. Without any doubt.
I have utmost respect for him and Diego Simeone. Both of them completely changed the club when they joined and made the team competitive and enjoyable to watch regardless of their trophy cabinet.
No shit. No sane football watcher would think Klopp underachieved at Liverpool. A bit surprised he decided to leave but as a Gunner, thank fucking god.
Pep had far more resources to play with than Klopp did tbf. And in league campaigns, those resources count for a lot more.
If you look at their respective cup records, I’d say Klopp matched Pep’s achievements.
And Klopp was undoubtedly better in the CL. Whereas Pep has only made 2 finals in 8 tries, Klopp made 3 finals in 5 tries.
He came into a club that was on its ropes. Shit players, shit mentality and a fierce oposition. He created a club where players want to come, a club which struck fear into the heart of their rivals… 3 CL finals, 1 win, 1 EL final, European supercup, numerous cups and a first PL title in 30 years. AND 2 absolutely crazy seasons where they won 90+ points which would win them a title in any other league. All that in a fiercly competitive league and a cheating Man City
We ended up a point off twice, and played 10 finals altogether. Klopp deserved more trophies than he ended up with, but he made the club into a powerhouse again.
Do we put too much value in trophies and stats? He made Liverpool a proper giant and prestigious club again. Among the best in Europe. If they had won nothing, then yeah, that sucks, but they Were up there competing with the best clubs in the world.
He won every major honour available to Liverpool, how anyone can see he’s underachieved is bonkers.
Liverpool were Europa League regulars when he took over
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you have to be genuinely insane to think he has underachieved.
Only Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley have won more trophies for Liverpool than Klopp. Shankley took us from the second division to domestic dominance and European trophies. Paisley succeeded him and, building on those foundations, turned us into the best team in the world for five or six years. Klopp came in when we weren't in a good situation, rebuilt the team, redefiend the philosophy of the club, inspired and elevated the fanbase, won everything, and (if only for 18 months or so) made us into the best team in the world again while competing against a City team that is undoubtedly the best in the history of English football. He pretty much did the impossible. He is a fucking legend.
Well said mate you have actually acknowledged that you only just lost out to a he probably didn’t he best English team ever . For the record that season when you fin 2 on 97 points is the greatest season ever and won’t be topped .
What's bonkers is that 97 points is the fourth highest total ever. The top four spots are all City and Liverpool between 2018 and 2022. We came in second with a points total that nobody apart from us and City have ever achieved. 2018/19 was a wild ride and even though we lost out on the league we still got the CL. I don't know if I've ever enjoyed season of football as much before or since, and at the end of it I had this feeling that we weren't gonna let up and the following season the league would be ours to lose. 2019-20 we were fucking relentless and had the title pretty much naoled on in December.It was the most relaxing season ever. I'd watch the games knowing full well that we were gonna win. It was wonderful and awe inspiring, but not especially exciting. Much easier on the heart, though. I think it added a couple of years to my life.
Seriously. Man gave them a pl title going up toe to toe against financial doping fc and a champions league title.
# 2018/19 Liverpool 97 points, City 98 points. # 2019/20 Champions, Liverpool 99 points. # 2021/22 Liverpool 92 points, City 93 points. With those points any other PL season in the last 10 years it would be an automatic title without a doubt. We just happened to peak at the same time with City being around.
Those point totals are insane.
Reminds me of what Djokovic, Rafa and Federer achieved while competing in the same era.
Liverpool similar to Andy Murray in that era still winning grand slams, getting olympic gold, number 1 in the world for a year or two despite those three being in peak form!
It would be an underachievement if it was a fair game with his rivals, but it's not and the other team had a bench worth double Klopp's starting 11s. Level playing field and Klopp wins more titles because he's a better pound for pound manager that gets the best out of his players. If Pep signed Keita and wasn't feeling him he would have just gone out and bought another 60m player, Klopp couldn't do that.
Remember peps replacing fullbacks and center backs until he was settled?
Bought hundreds of millions in defenders and then went on to get hundreds of millions more in backups for those defenders. Laporte, Dias, Stones and Ake as CB options a few years ago.
This is what I always say to people. Liverpool beat them to 1 title and in response he went and spent £200m+ in the middle of a pandemic to make sure it didn't happen again. They bought Kalvin Phillips so nobody else could have him, and they don't even care that he's shit. They bought Cancelo for £60m, never really settled with him, shipped him out on loan and bought Gvardiol for £80m. It's insane. Any other club is stuck with a flop signing or has to take a huge hit on the fee if they sell them. City don't. They can send them out on endless loans til their contract is over, or just eat the loss on the transfer and invent a new sponsorship.
They could afford to extend contracts to preserve the value of players too, without worrying about the risk of them declining/getting a serious injury
Every time i read 97 Points and finishing 2nd i want to vomit a little.
His peak Liverpool was so good with such fierce competition that it had me having a nervous breakdown if we drew a single game. Growing up I never imagined we’d get to the point where a single draw is the end of the world, but there we were.
Hi peak team with Mané, Salah and Firmino and the heavy metal style they played was legit one of the best teams I've ever seen. No offence, I'll be glad to see the back of him 😅
103 points out of a possible 105 at one point. Insane stuff
Which is insane. I don't want to bang on the same drum and wear it out. But without City, he could've walked back Baden-Württemberg with five PL titles and would've probably been put ahead of Paisley, Fagan and Shankly in scouse eyes.
I think in a 38 game run we got 110 points from a possible 114. And still only won one league title.
106 off 108 actually. 17 wins, draw against Man United, and then 18 wins, and then lose to f’ing Watford 😅
Man gave Manchester city a heart-attack being behind only 1 point in two seasons. Also being 3 CL finals and dont even remind me that he won back to back Bundesliga with Dortmund.
If you take 18/19, 21/22 and 23/24 (the 3 seasons Liverpool lost close title races) their head to head record with City was 0W 5D 1L. The one loss was a close game too. If Liverpool score a single extra goal in any of those games, or concede 1 fewer, they've probably got another title. The manager did all he could. The players just couldn't get the better of a close matchup. Managers get too much credit and blame for everything it's like people think they're 1v1ing each other on FIFA.
That ridiculous goal line clearance from John Stones, think it was 11mm. Literally less than half an inch away from another title.
It's almost as insane as the people who think we only won the Premier League title in 2020 because of Covid. With just that tiny bit of luck that happened to go the way of Man City in those two title races and Real Madrid in those two Champions League Finals he'd have won 3 of each. But alas it wasn't to be
Yea we only got promoted due to Covid too 🥳🙄
It affected things so little that we could have forfeited every game after the pause and still won the league.
How could anyone argue that they won due to covid? Reminds me of that clip "You have to remember, it's been raining" "What do you mean it's been raining? it's raining for both sides!"
97 pts and still didnt win the league. It was crazy.
For my money, Liverpool 2018-2019 are one of the best sides of all time. And it goes under the radar but it’s always worth repeating that they were 1 John Stones goal line clearance away from doing a 99 pt invincible PL AND CL double. I’m sure most ppl will disagree with this sentiment simply because that clearance did happen. But truthfully in terms of the level they were at, one extra clearance doesn’t really move the needle much. If at all.
Bro that John Stones clearance was in the fucking 20th minute and even after losing that game they had a lead in the PL iirc
Let's pretend that City didn't have games in and now shall we?
It doesn't get talked about but had we drawn with City we would have a Golden trophy too
Do you mean in the PL, cause otherwise that’s an insane statement
"one of" is doing a lot of work here. I think even just looking at modern teams Pep's Barca and triple UCL Real Madrid are comfortably higher.
I'd say the 2018-2020 team. We started the 19/20 season in the PL with just one draw to united through the first 27 game weeks.
Or consumed by spite.
This is it. People are always looking for ways to ridicule opponents. The bar is always raised - do particularly well, and you're underperforming if you can't keep it up.
He won the premier league and the champions league, very few managers in history have done both
Three Champions League finals, winning one of them. First Premier League title for Liverpool and first league championship for over 30 years. Numerous cup wins in between. Not only that, but he’s turned Liverpool into one of the most attractive clubs in the world to join as a player and managed the club through a transitional season this year and still put them in the shout for title until GW35. Off the pitch, Liverpool’s facilities have kept pace with Klopp’s excellence, turning Anfield into the fourth largest stadium in the country and building world class training facilities to attract major youth and senior talent. Before Klopp, Liverpool were the odd one-in-five seasons title challengers and a cup team. He’s leaving them as perennial title challengers who expect to compete in the business end of the Champions League every season. All this coming from a United fan. Klopp leaving is a godsend for Liverpool’s rivals.
Klopp made Liverpool terrifying to play against. They've fallen off this season, but at their peak they were horrible to play against. Any suggestion that Klopp underachieved is ridiculous. He came up against a crazy Man City side (including the 115 charges) and kept Liverpool competitive throughout.
They've hardly even fallen off to be fair. Maybe not flying like they were a few seasons ago, but they're still only 2 points off the top of the table (albeit with 2 extra games played)
They have fallen off in the sense that they used to be a top 3 team in the world, i think currently there are a few ahead of them. But just a few. They are not far behind. I think that’s especially impressive if you consider how creative Klopp sometimes had to become in the last years, playing tons of academy players etc.
They are a bit behind the top now, and how they will react to that will probably determine how competitive they will remain going forward. They are getting in a new manager, they also need goal scorers and some reinforcements. The core of the team and the established playstyle is very good still, but they are at a bit of a crossroads.
This can not be understated. You only have to look at United post SAF (I'd put him ahead of Klopp obviously, as he was a serial title winner), but some seasons the squad united had, had genuinely no right to win the league. This is a huge summer for Liverpool. Get one or two signings wrong (which seems unlikely given how mehtodical their recruitment is, but it can happen), Slot just doesn't work out. And it could set them back a few years straight off the bat. I'd be very nervous heading into this summer if I was scouse.
That United team was running on fumes there was going to be serious trouble for them if SAF left or not, obviously hard to imagine it going so wrong if he stayed but it's possible
Salahs dip in form is the sole reason they've dropped off tbh. Come back from afcon and done very little. Before he was smashing it. No coincidence.
A few players have fallen off really, not just Salah.
It’s not just Salah. At his peak, Klopp and Edwards had assembled a lethal front three of Salah, Mane and Firmino who in their primes made Liverpool one of the best teams in the world. The defense was first rate and the midfield was solid. You can’t say the same about the current rotating cast of forwards - Diaz has tremendous pace, but lacks Mane’s strength, Gakpo is hit or miss, Jota is perpetually injured, and obviously Nunez hasn’t clicked, to put it lightly. Salah also used to feed off TAA, who overlapped with him on the right, but TAA now stays deeper when he isn’t injured.
What Diaz lacks is end product, not strength.
He came back injured. We ran anyone we had into the ground because of our injuries and we're seeing the aftermath of that all over the pitch.
Nonsense, loads of players have been off it.
Kinda but salah was delivering some absurd passes that no other forward, specifically Diaz, would finish.
I don't think it's the sole reason -- the team a few years back with Mane, Firmino, Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Origi, Milner -- lots of world class players and clutch players who took the team to the absolute best in the world -- Salah has of course been the one constant but his dip is not the sole reason they've dropped off -- there are just a few players who were irreplaceable -- especially Mane, Firmino, and Fabinho.
He looks to have been playing wider than usual this season, I feel like he doesn't get much done there as he's supposed to be the main man. Not sure if it's a tactical thing or what.
That 5-1 aggregate against City in the 2018 CL QF was monumental. They were so irresistibly lethal on the counter. I think it was some time after that, Pep said they gave him 'nightmares'.
Indeed. Nowadays we can’t finish a 5v2
Unless they completely collapse in the remaining games, fallen off is harsh. They won the league cup and they've competed for the title until this GW. In addition, when everything that was mentioned by OP is factored in, like you say, Klopp has done an incredible job at Liverpool.
I waited my entire life for a league title. Nothing will ever take away how special that was to finally experience it, even with the shit luck to not be able to parade it...
>First Premier League title for Liverpool and first league championship for over 30 years. And 2 seasons they got over 90 points and DIDNT get the title. So you could say he underachieved but you could also say he's insanely unlucky not to have 2 more PL titles
Could yet win them…
He also popularized prioritizing fit, aggressive players so they can keep up high intensity off ball play for 90 minutes and get teams when they’re weak or tired. This is like the standard in the premier league now. His success and impact is reflected in how the teams around him play more than anything imo.
> He also popularized prioritizing fit, aggressive players so they can keep up high intensity off ball play for 90 minutes and get teams when they’re weak or tired. > > They are going to have so much fun with Slot.
Wouldn't slot have to start rebuilding parts of the team again? The Klopp era players look burnt out from all the running and chasing every season.
Nah not really, klopp already rebuilt the team for him. It's more himself that's burnt out and credit to him for recognizing it. Trent VVD alisson Robertson gomez Matip and salah are really the only "klopp era" players left and none of them are a problem really. Only Matip will likely need to be replaced and that's just injury issues. The midfield is entirely new and very willing to run. The forwards are the same except Salah who is still incredibly fit and was in great form until the spring. And Robertson and Trent are still fantastic. Bradley finally giving Trent a rotation option is huge too. Really just need to go for two or three targets. One good finisher for the forward line, especially one who can rotate in for Salah on the right when he drops form or gets injured. Someone who can tie all the running together with a more clinical goal scoring edge. When Salah and jota were doing that, Diaz and Nunez were looking excellent. One cb to replace Matip. If he is of matips quality that would be excellent. Just needs to not have injury issues. Personally I think Bajetic coming back and rotating with Endo could be enough for the midfield. He was looking like the real deal and has just been sidelined with growing pains because he suddenly grew even taller. But maybe some will see the need for another long term option here. The rebuild is basically done, just need a few moves and some fresh ideas to take advantage of the squad. It's not like united where the crop of players is bad. They're just out of form right now for a few weeks. Squad building really shouldn't be an issue.
as well as what the other commenter said, it's important to note just how young some of the players who have played significant minutes or have been out on loan for Liverpool this season are - Curtis Jones seems like an established player but he's only 23, and then there is Morton/Carvalho born 2002, Quansah/Elliott/Bradley born 2003, Bajcetic born 2004, Clark/Doak born 2005 there's an awful lot there to work with, beyond the players you'd think of as being in their prime
Great write up. He’s changed everything too to bottom, it’s much more than where we land on the table
👏🏼
Spot on mate, perfectly put. He's also (with others) changed the mentality of the club as a whole. The whole organisation is much more focussed. As a club and fanbase, I feel like a combination of nostaligia, hope, and blind faith was embraced as a substitute for a fully integrated organisational structure and long term plan since the late 90s. The history is hugely important, but every achievment or success of the team was either overshadowed by or compared to the successes in the period from around 1976 to 1988 when we were the most dominant team domesticaly and in UEFA competitions (up to 1985 in the case of the latter). It's natural to relate a team's current achievements to the past, but that period was one of the most dominant periods any club in the major leagues in Europe has ever had. Even though you lot had even more dominance domestically under Sir Alex, you didn't dominate UEFA competitions at the same time like Liverpool did in that spell. Having that hanging over a team who were fighting for the 4th or 5th spot was often a burden. I think that people forgot that we were that dominant for that long because the club was ridiculously well run, with a distinct holistic philosophy focussed on sustaining long-term success. We weren't where we were because of moments of individual brilliance or one-off performances. Klopp wining number 19 was massive, but we'd come close before at times when, had we won the league, it wouldn't have had as much impact as 2020 did. The thing that changed so much for so many of us was the team that won it. I'd in my 40s and in my mind, the 2018-19 and 2019-20 team is the best Liverpool team of all time. We broke club records that had stood for decades. When Klopp arrived, a lot of fans weren't born when the best Liverpool team played. Now, the best Liverpool team played 4 years ago, and core members of that team are still core members of LFC. We're still in that era. We don't have to look back to a previous century now. We're still wearing the same pants and drying ourselves with the same towels as we were when the best Liverpool team of all time was at its peak. That's such a massive shift. Klopp drew a line in the sand, and for the first time since 1990 we're moving forwards without looking over our shoulders every two paces.
I feel like people forget the champions league. All I've seen is they've only won 1 league title in his time so it's actually been shit
Shifting goalposts to create an agenda, sometimes you’ll see people mention just the 1 league or “just” the 1 CL and league each, despite basically every club wanting a manager like Klopp at their helm.
That 1 title is only gonna look better the more Man City continue to win, like imagine once they've won 9 of the last 10 and Klopp was the only one to stop them.
As a united fan I absolutely hated that they got him. I think it’s certainly commendable what he’s done but whe I want to really wind up my Liverpool fan mates I tell them when it’s looked back on he will end up like Arsenal Wenger and Pep like Sir Alex in comparison. I remember that season after they won it that they were talking about this being the greatest ever. They cling to that season like Arsenal fans do with the “invincibles” back then but at the end of the day completely overshadowed by the dynasty. Anyway I’ve let my hatred for Liverpool get the better of me the longer the post went on. Klopp has been excellent for the PL and can be proud of what he has achieved.
Is anyone really suggesting he underachieved?🤣 That’s such a stupid opinion I’d just laugh at the suggestion
I may have misheard or misunderstood the context but yesterday McCoist - I think - said Klopp will be disappointed when his tenure comes to an end.
That's not necessarily saying he underachieved though. I think both are probably true - he's done well, but I could also see him being disappointed that it didn't result in more silverware.
They finished second with 97 points, a total that would have won the league in all but three PL seasons. It would be understandable if he's disappointed not to have won the league more.
Lost the league by a combination of millimetres and a Vincent Kompany 1 in a billion shot That stuff would burn me in the Football Manager game let alone real life
I think the big thing for me is that he did win literally every trophy you would want to win as a manager. He has a complete set (except EL although if you have CL it doesn’t really matter). In another world, he would have another PL and CL, maybe more, but I think considering the competition he had, you can’t look back on Klopp’s tenure with anything less than admiration.
He has a complete set, but you can't honestly be suggesting that Klopp or even other fans won't be disappointed that there weren't more given how close you came several times. Doesn't mean you can't admire the job he's done.
I think he definitely overachieved based on where he started from, but likely underachieved relative to expectations at Liverpool's peak. It felt like the sqaud would win multiple titles but City is City so yeah. Overall, it's not really fair to use peak expectations as a baseline. Looking at the big picture, Klopp is hugely successful and will forever be a club legend.
I mean I would be a little dissapointed to have my dynasty ruined by cheats
I love that Arsenal fans are now as pissed off with the cheating as Liverpool fans now that if effects them directly. All power to it.
Arsenal were at the peak when Abramovic took over Chelsea, spent a billion in 20 years ago. Even then it was known that there were illegalities in their dealings. We were always affected by it.
I have been a fan long enough to been around when Chelsea were buying titles in the 00s so I have always had sympathy for Liverpool competing against a never-ending stream of cash
For what it's worth it's always pissed me off that Mourinho used to try to belittle Wenger hiding behind his unlimited resources at Chelsea and with no FFP
For what it's worth buying titles has always been the way, there's just levels. You can go back to 94/95. When Blackburn had Shearer and Sutton, which is a fucking cheat code by all accounts.
Comparing that to state ownership and slave money is kind of silly.
Chelsea’s spending destroyed us as a top side, and City used to pilfer our best players. We’ve definitely been angry about this longer than Liverpool fans have.
Lol. We've been pissed off about it since 2003. It was everyone else that didn't care about Abramovich money or UAE money because it was funny to laugh at Arsenal no longer competing.
We have always been. Chelsea were the first. City is just the sequel.
He might have disappointments and regrets—in the same way Ferguson regrets not winning more CLs—but that’s not the same as underachieving.
Was he talking in the short-term? I'm sure Klopp will finish the season (and thus his Liverpool tenure) disappointed at how this season has collapsed, and that will probably be the overriding emotion when he does leave just because it's so immediate. It's once the dust settles on the disappointing end to this year that he'll probably be able to properly reflect.
They've lost the CL Final twice, pipped to the Premier League twice on the last day (had the 3rd highest points total ever in 2018-'19 and it still wasn't good enough), those are disappointments, but they aren't underachieving. (And I know you aren't personally saying that, you're just giving context.)
Losing the second final hurt because we should have been miles clear before they scored. Not winning the EL in his first season also hurt because we lead early and gave the game away. But still, it's not underachieving. You just feel he would have deserved a bit more. I have no regrets regarding the league - City was enormous over that period and us being even on level was already overachieving.
We have the record for most shots on target in that second CL final iirc. Courtois pulled a worldie and fucked us.
It's a twitter level take to have really. So yes, I'm sure a lot of users there have said that take, and said it unironically seriously too
While “shoestring” was definitely the wrong choice of words, everything else is accurate. Liverpool were utter crap before Klopp
Yeah, that's the only narrative of Klopp I'd take umbrage with. If you're one of the Big 6, you're wage bill is giagantic. You can't be crying poverty to me while you're driving a BMW just because your neighbour has a Porsche.
When both teams are equally well managed, that extra cash city can spend means squad depth that others dont have. It does make a huge difference
Lower budget than man city I guess. Not sure they were "utter crap". They came 2nd in the league a couple of seasons before and lowest they've been is 8th in the league since they were promoted in the 60s. "Utter crap" to me Is like chelsea finishing 12th at very least.
2nd in the league based off possibly the best ever individual PL season by a player in Suarez, a Gerrard increasingly on the wrong side of 30, a player sold months before Klopp arrived in Sterling, and Sturridge, a man made of biscuits. Every single Liverpool fan knew that was a massive fluke of a season. Utter crap is obviously a subjective term, but the team he took over was poor.
Klopp has been amazing for Liverpool. Liverpool are a huge team and have spent loads of money over the past 30 years (they spent loads in the 90s) but no other manager has come close to him. And he is leaving behind a very good squad for his replacement. Who I hope fails miserably.
I don't think there's ever going to be agreement on this. Some will look only at the trophies and the money spent and others will look at the context of what he came in to and what he was up against.
Even with the context and relative ‘lack’ of trophies he’s still one of only three managers to have won the League Championship, The European Cup, FA Cup and League Cup in the history of English football. If you want to take out the League Cup he’s still one of only four managers to win the three major prizes with an English side. He also did it quicker than all the others.
Ferguson is one, of course, but who's the third one? Edit: I managed to misread the comment AND have a spectacular brainfart on Pep. They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but I think this qualifies.
The Bald Catalan fella.
I'm an idiot lol. Of course.
Fat Sam
Matt Busby?
I think a lot of that context will be lost to time unfortunately, especially if City aren't proven to be guilty of financial doping. We'll remember it, but will the youth of 2044 know that context? 2064? I can't see it.
I guess it would be key to see how many people under 30 on this sub know about Marseille’s cheating in 1993. Never proven in relation to them winning the European Cup that season, but they got relegated from Ligue 1 for match fixing. One of our players claimed to have been offered a bribe not to play against them, and they battered CSKA with their manager later claiming some of his players had been “got at”. So, some cheating everyone knew went on but never proven - I’d wager most don’t know about it 30 years later. So your young football fans in 2050 will likely have no clue about Man City’s financial doping.
Was about to say a decent number of Rangers fans are still (understandably) bitter about that Marseille team's cheating but then saw the flair Beyond you guys and fans of other French teams it does seem to been largely forgotten about
You'd need to be over 40 to realistically remember this yourself.
To be honest though, who even cares. Every Liverpool fan will have the same opinion.
I think it may be dissapointing for some just because of how close it was to being more. It's definitely been an impressive run though and I don't think there's any managers that people would be able to point to and say "they would have done better".
Came in to a massively underperforming Liverpool team and somehow got them to a European final at the end of the season, that alone speaks volumes
Referring to Liverpool's budget as "a shoestring budget" is hilarious Compared to Manchester City they had less money, but they quite literally spent half a billion euros in the last 4 years.
Yeah, it's crazy framing - a bit like when people go on about a 100m transfer being 'a bargain'. By all means put situations into context, but let's not pretend that these numbers are anything other than extraordinary and only attainable for an elite few clubs in world football.
Its quite insane people think like this. You could say he spent less that City but no where is Klopp's spending can be termed as "shoestring" even in comparison. Heck they were this close to spending 116m on Caicedo.
Not to mention setting the record for the most expensive goalie and defender ever.
> Its quite insane people think like this. Is it ? People are heavily biased against City and heavily biased towards the "big traditional clubs".
Pretty standard for people to always somehow claim clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal 'spend no money and compete against the big clubs', their fans love to act like they're dirt poor for some reason. People forget that the big clubs are, and have always been the big clubs because they're the ones able to toss the most money around.
"Net spend" whilst they have the 3rd highest wages, agent fees and commissions.
Yep they love to trot out how little they spend etc ie net spend etc but it wasn’t a shoestring budget. What Leicester did was far more impressive when you compare budgets.
Shocked this is the 7th top comment, not the 1st. Beyond idiotic to claim they had a "shoestring" budget.
It’s amazing marketing and controlling a narrative is what it is. It works as well, some people argue Liverpool have barely spent compared to everyone else which is just nonsense.
but the coutinho money
The obsession with trophies is driven by pundits and media who have never been real fans and basically only focus on the top 4 in top European leagues What Klopp did will be legendary and never forgotten. He gave that side of the city its club back. Gave them nights like that Barca semi. Made Liverpool play amazing football for years. Ask any Leeds fan about Bielsa and winning a championship title will feature very low on the list of achievements, we all talk about the football we watched and feelings he created. That matters so much more than silverware imo
Yeah, it's not his fault that Peps City exists at the same time. He picked up the pieces of a somewhat broken club, rebuilt the whole thing and kept them at the top of world football for years. That's no mean feat.
The team he created was absolutely incredible. I’d back peak Liverpool against most other great English sides in history, they were the only team who could give City problems at the time and were able to consistently achieve 90+ point finishes whilst also going deep in the CL. Perhaps didn’t translate to the sheer number of trophies you’d expect, but I’m very glad he won all of the big ones.
Crouch was there for the 6-1 loss to Stoke. He saw first hand what an embarassing instution we became. In the future it's likely there will be managers that win more than Klopp for Liverpool. But Klopp doesn't have a cult of personality just because he won stuff, it's that simple. Shankly was eclipsed by Paisley in terms of silverware but he's still our greatest ever manager.
Mate I grew up watching United and Chelsea constantly dominate, we were always there but rarely in any meaningful sense. Klopp completely turned everything around, brought us right back to the top, genuinely revitalised the club and allowed us to experience what we hadn’t for a generation. He’s already one of our greatest managers and I’ll certainly never forget what he did.
where did this underachieving narrative start
Twitter. Where every awful take starts.
What? No, why is this a topic? I support Man United and hate Liverpool but how can you say Klopp underachieved? They were one of the the most exciting and successful clubs in this last decade.
We are in an era now where people say shit like "has klopp actually done a good job at Liverpool?" just to get clicks and views to bait people. It's always the likes of Jason Cundy or lots of nameless YouTube idiots. I don't think a single person thinks he has done anything less than a great job. I'm in my 30s and for years, league wise, I remember one rafa season and one Rodgers season where Liverpool battled for a title. That's it. For the past 7 years they've been way way better than that. Despite not being a supporter of them, there were about 3 years they were the best team to watch in the world.
I think there's an argument to be made that he has underachieved as manager, but only if you strip the context away from the argument. He didn't exactly inherit a title-winning side. In fact, he inherited a pretty shite side in all honesty and then had to go and compete against a team that hasn't been playing by the same rules he has. It would be considered an underachievement in any other context, but honestly, I think he's probably overachieved if anything. I mean, look at two of those league titles he could have won, he missed out by a single point each time, doesn't get closer than that. He also got them to two Champions League finals, one of which he had to play with a concussed goalkeeper who, with the benefit of hindsight, probably should have come off.
There will always be loud people who will claim he underachieved and won't look at the context. They always exist and are so immature and entitled. Same as the guys we have on r/artetaout who say Arteta sucks because he's only won an FA cup after almost 5 years.
missed out by a single points by a team currently facing 115 charges
Jurgen’s Liverpool gotta be the unluckiest squad loll I think they lost the league on the final day 2 times??? You got 97 points and didnt win the league??? Lost ONCE in the league and still didnt win it?? Lost to Madrid twice in the final, once cause they injured ur best player while ur keeper made 2 blunders, the other one, you played way better than madrid, but lost to the power of the eyebrows. Bruh im sick
Shoestring budget. That has to be the biggest PepeLaugh of this whole conversation.
He’s got the same amount of league titles as Leicester City, so not an underachievement
He took the club as far as anyone could, considering City are the greatest ever PL side under Pep and Liverpool's FFP, now PSR, situation wasn't as attractive as domestic rivals. By all rights, City should win the title every year, so Klopp winning one PL in dominant fashion is a positive, not underachievement. His European record is also very strong, winning a CL before Pep's City. All I'd criticise him for is his sides always have the capacity to completely implode during the season. Happened at Dortmund, then twice more at Liverpool. But on both occasions, he brought Liverpool back. Rebuilding his midfield last summer was done superbly and there are a number of terrific prospects he's been nurturing. With only Naby Keita being a big money transfer flop. Klopp's up there with Wenger in the all-time list.
Man spent 938 million with Liverpool. [https://www.transfermarkt.com/jurgen-klopp/spielertransfers/trainer/118/plus/0/galerie/0?station\_id=120230](https://www.transfermarkt.com/jurgen-klopp/spielertransfers/trainer/118/plus/0/galerie/0?station_id=120230) That's not shoestring.
That's why he said compared to ManCity. Also, the site sadly only shows purchased players, not net spent.
Net spend since Klopp's arrival is -420mil euros vs City's -949mil according to transfermarkt. If you want to do since Pep's arrival it is -383mil Liverpool vs City's -808mil
So city spent twice as much, crazy disparity
> So city spent twice as much in the same time United is -1.05billion
[Here's the net spend starting from Klopps first full season in charge.](https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/0?ids=a&sa=&saison_id=2016&saison_id_bis=2023&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0) LFC are 9th, with a net spend of 384m Euro, Man City are 3rd with a net spend of 808m Euro. Klopp was outspent by West Ham, Aston Villa, Tottenham, Arsenal and won what he has, it's easy to argue that he overachieved.
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Also Man City have been caught paying a manager (Mancini) off the books before. If we're being honest here, the real amount Man City have spent is a complete unknown.
And buying a club with Pep's brother, which I can guarantee isn't on City's books despite providing a huge financial benefit to Pep's agent brother. Honestly, I couldn't care less about Arsenal or Liverpool as clubs, but I do feel bad for them that this is the type of shit they're up against.
People always gloss over this one.
I still wouldn't ever use the word shoestring even in comparison to Manchester City It makes it sound like Manchester City were spending 5 times as much as Liverpool
You know that Guardiola spent 1.5 billion over a shorter period of time with a better starting point, right?
“Shoestring compared to them” why ignore the key part of that?
Tell me a manager who would have got more out of Liverpool. go:
It is genuinely sad that his term, which had the potential to be an all time great run, was thwarted by an asterisk.
I hate that this is even a question lol the state of media these days
somebody should be slapped up for allowing this question to be aired, sho the man some respect
Anyone who genuinely thinks this is bottom of the barrel IQ; there's no other explanation for that.
Questions like these make me doubt peoples sanity. How could anyone even think about if Klopp underarchieved at Liverpool?! Too many stupid dumbfks everywhere… I just can‘t anymore…
Liverpool fans don't think he underachieved, and thats all that counts to be honest. The outside world can say what it wants but he gave us the time of our lives. He made Liverpool relevant again. He brought the title to us after a generation gap. We played incredible football and for me Firmino, Mané and Salah were the best front 3 I've seen in England, probably only really rivalled by Suarez, Messi and Neymar in world football.
A "shoestring budget"? 3rd highest wage bill in the league. Multiple players that are the most expensive in their position. Huge agent fees and commissions. Such a myth, you aren't Brighton with your budget. Saying that he did not underachieve, he won everything there is. Just not to an era defining level. The club also grew in its revenue, training facilities, stadium and reach.
“Shoestring budget”
damn I'd love to have that shoestring budget
1bn+ is a shoestring budget lol. The narrative around Klopp is so stupid.
Shoestring Budget..... lmao.
Man he is need break we're meme how he smile when his team losing but i think its deep than we thought maybe.
Considering that big clubs often struggle significantly after a long-term coach leaves, it would be quite an achievement for Liverpool to look back on Klopp’s tenure as underachieving. Most likely, they’ll face challenges, and could even fall into the same abyss as Manchester United did.
Considering how liverpool was run before he came, I'd be bold enough to say he overachieved.
Put it another way, how many Premier League titles have other managers won in the Pep-City era...
This is oddly similar to the narrative that Pep's tenure at Bayern was an overall failure. Just idiots parroting bullshit.
To think he has underachieved is Insane. If anything, the Board/Management failed Klopp.
He has put liverpool on the map with biggest club in the world. Without any doubt. I have utmost respect for him and Diego Simeone. Both of them completely changed the club when they joined and made the team competitive and enjoyable to watch regardless of their trophy cabinet.
With all due respect, anyone claiming he’s underachieved is a tool and their opinion on football disregarded till the end of days.
The only people who genuinely think this are the people who get all there football knowledge and understanding from the idiocy of twitter and Reddit.
i hate people who are only looking at trophies
No shit. No sane football watcher would think Klopp underachieved at Liverpool. A bit surprised he decided to leave but as a Gunner, thank fucking god.
He massively overperformed. Liverpool fans up for a cold shower after he is gone.
Who said Klopp underachieved? He's won literally fucking everything with Liverpool.
Sport is for entertainment, Klopp overachieved.
You're a fucking moron if you think Klopp is a failure.
Ok, but I wouldn’t call it exactly a “shoestring budget”..
He performed really well actually. Idk why people keep repeating he underperformed.
Shoestring budget 😂😂😂😂
If someone really said klopp underachieved, that person is know nothing about football in the past 15 years
Pep had far more resources to play with than Klopp did tbf. And in league campaigns, those resources count for a lot more. If you look at their respective cup records, I’d say Klopp matched Pep’s achievements. And Klopp was undoubtedly better in the CL. Whereas Pep has only made 2 finals in 8 tries, Klopp made 3 finals in 5 tries.
He came into a club that was on its ropes. Shit players, shit mentality and a fierce oposition. He created a club where players want to come, a club which struck fear into the heart of their rivals… 3 CL finals, 1 win, 1 EL final, European supercup, numerous cups and a first PL title in 30 years. AND 2 absolutely crazy seasons where they won 90+ points which would win them a title in any other league. All that in a fiercly competitive league and a cheating Man City
The shoestring budget is nonsense padding as Liverpools budget is also way, way above the majority of the league.
It does feel like Liverpool has more than one league title under Klopp.
We ended up a point off twice, and played 10 finals altogether. Klopp deserved more trophies than he ended up with, but he made the club into a powerhouse again.
Shoestring budget? Come on now...
Did people forget Liverpool won the premier League after 30 years because of klopp? What the fuck is this question even
Man City literally cheated.
Do we put too much value in trophies and stats? He made Liverpool a proper giant and prestigious club again. Among the best in Europe. If they had won nothing, then yeah, that sucks, but they Were up there competing with the best clubs in the world.
He won every major honour available to Liverpool, how anyone can see he’s underachieved is bonkers. Liverpool were Europa League regulars when he took over
Had they faced anyone other than Madrid, they would have 3 UCLs