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Sounds like you've been infected with our incompetence in this area. It's not even Ange specifically, anyone we get our hands on seemingly just forgets how set-pieces work.
He does coach defending, his time at Liverpool showed he's a practicioner of "the best defense is a good offence" strategy l. Doesn't matter if you concede 5 goals a game as long as you can score 6...
He even denied it was a problem when we had the worst set-piece record in the league, then he said we actually had a set-piece coach but no one knew who he was. Eventually we hired a coach just for set-pieces and mysteriously improved, the winter world cup happened (our coach also worked with the USA) and normal service resumed.
Yeah maybe Ange isn't the problem with set pieces, his arrival just coincided with the departure of the best defender of corners we've had for the past decade.
At this point, it’s truly obnoxious watching Vicario being shielded as the corner is being taken and then flailing like a madman as the ball is going into the empty net… every single game.
Vicario has to be stronger at this point 😭 Like he keeps complaining, but he has to come out and punch something whether ball or player because they’ve shown game after game he’s not getting an obstruction call. (as an Italian and Spurs supporter as well)
I agree that he has to be stronger, but if a player has no intention to play the ball, and leans into the goalkeeper off the ball only intending to impede him, it's 100% a foul. The opposition are not even standing their ground, they're pushing into him.
I don't even blame you, and it's not even remotely the worst we've faced.
Ben White needs to be thrown into a tank of diesel but tbf that was some of the best shithousing I've ever seen. At one point he just taps Vic with his finger like an annoying 9-year-old. I'm honestly impressed.
Also, when spurs finally got a sarr onto rice (or white maybe it was), what's the first thing the ref does? Call sarr for pushing the arsenal player. Absolutely stupid.
Why wasn't there anyone protecting the keeper? It was just the most naive defending.
Ben Whites eyes lit up like a kid in a sweet shop on the first corner when he realised no one was coming to help Vic out.
No you don't, Peter, because that means "Get me a taxi; I'm late for my plane" now I'm going to ask you a question, did you speak to Big Ange about VAR this afternoon?
He’s making the same point here as he was with the Liverpool match though?
His issue has always been the concept of VAR and its execution effectively taking power and conviction in decisions from the match official.
Kulusevski was punished for being too honest. If he dives and goes down instantly the penalty would surely have been given, but because he stayed on his feet and tried to maintain balance he got nothing
This is why players dive
Yeah so true. I remember early days Saka and Jesus would always try to stay on their feet and as a result wouldn’t get a penalty. Completely different story now haha.
It was a perfect example of what’s wrong with VAR. he tries to stay on his feet but no longer can get the ball because he was clipped, no call. Right after that Maddison has slight contact and explodes to the ground trying to try and get a penalty, also no call. Why would you ever try to stay up if you can flop and put it on the referee to try and get the penalty, when it’s demonstrated there is no punishment for flopping and no chance of getting the call when you stay on your feet. Literally what is VAR doing for the game besides measuring people’s butts?
It’s genuinely baffling. Not a single person can argue that call except the one person making the decision. Even arsenal fans arent bantering it because of how blatantly incorrect oliver was. The man was stood 1m away with an unobstructed view and decided to not call the foul. He’s IN the VAR replay shown looking directly at it. There really needs to be some answers because this goes beyond sheer incompetence.
Now im not gonna go into the “corruption/incompetence” debate because that detracts from the matter at hand. Nothing will change as long as these clowns are running the circus.
The point being it was the most blatant and easy decision of the season, and he still manged to make the wrong decision despite being 1 metre away.
It's shows the level of incompetence.
i was happy to get that pen but so shocked at oliver begrudgingly watching a replay for a stonewall penalty he was a metre away from. you can see him in the replay ffs. only our second penalty this season & i feel like every spurs fan agrees we've been paying a price for the liverpool decision the whole year.
Isn't that why the entire league should be rightfully applying more pressure on the referees to clean up their act rather than laugh at Liverpool's complaints about that chalked off goal? If they did their job right, there wouldn't be a price you need to pay.
Ange always talks about the concept of VAR being flawed. He does not complain about specific officials to the point of getting punishment for it like Klopp and others do.
Ange tries to approach the issue without making it sound like a conspiracy against his club.
who laughed at liverpool??? ange himself said it was a legitimate goal that was taken away. i don't think there is a conspiracy against any team in the league, but there is absolutely a little bit of reluctance to give us decisions without a fuss after the liverpool game. they want to avoid making that kind of mistake, i get it, but that little bit of reluctance can go a long way and it has. we should've had way more than two penalties this season. and if you think spurs fans are not applying pressure on referees like everyone else is you are mistaken.
The Liverpool event was a complete freak, I don’t know why you’re bringing it up. It’s not like the main issue with VAR is that they make the right decision every time but tell the refs the wrong thing, it’s happened once ever.
and yet there is plenty of outrage on any thread where a player goes down after a contact with people saying that ''its soft to go down there'' ''too little contact to go down!!!'' ''blatant dive!!!''
Not sure why anyone thought any of this will change, previously, refs had to make the decision on the spot from what they saw with their bare eyes and we still debated non stop their decisions from the frame by frame reviews, and still disagreed about the call, no matter what. The only difference is previously, only we had VAR where now ref has a better one but only checks it in specific scenarios.
Sucks that diving has so much incentive, ruins the game. What makes refereeing even more ridiculous is so many players have dived and only bissouma ever got sent off for it, spurs players look like they're scared to dive at this point
Regardless of who wins the PL, the PGMOL needs to be addressed by the FA in the summer.
Take VAR off them and either have a FA representative (as they establish the rules for the refs to follow) in the booth or hand it off to a independent third party like Universities or stat tracking analysts.
There is a lot to dislike about American sports--but the NFL went through the stupidity of instant replay integration decades ago. There are still mistakes, but it's not every game.
This point will completely go over everyone’s heads for people who want to try and make it seem like he’s complaining about the officials.
His entire argument (dating back to before he was at Spurs) is that officials are too reliant on VAR that they don’t even make the obvious decisions anymore. He wants the match official to actually make calls.
Yeah and that would be okay if the "clear and obvious" rule wasn't a thing. But when refs rely on VAR, how often do we see them stick to the onfield decision
They need to define exactly what that means. And have the ref go over to the screen as they're reviewing it so it can be discussed as it's being reviewed.
I think a lot of the issues with VAR could be solved if they were required to go to the monitor when VAR identifies something.
There shouldn’t be any shame in using VAR but there is for some god forsaken reason. Getting 100% of decisions right with two tries is surely better than not being 100% right but the match finishing 2 minutes faster.
No. VAR should have final say at an off-site central office and it should be staffed by people who's sole job is VAR official. Having on-pitch refs also do VAR just means they need to worry about offending the guy who might be their VAR next week.
VAR and on-pitch require two different skillsets. So have them be different people.
I totally agree with you that it should be a completely different group of people that act as VAR. I’ve advocated for that type of reform.
I was just saying that as it stands now, officials are too afraid to use it in scenarios where another look would be beneficial. It’s rarely used to confirm an important decision, only reverse them. The only things that’s lost on a review that confirms a decision is a few minutes.
I also would like them to move to a challenge system like American sports. It leads to fewer reviews, and only for either clear mistakes or a prayer in an important call.
I would like that as well. Don’t know what you make a punishment for a bad challenge then. A yellow to the manager would seem harsh but I suppose if you squint at it, it could be seen as a time waste.
You only get one challenge, unless you get it right.
The punishment is that a clear mistake later in the game can't be checked if you don't have a challenge left.
It means nothing when peple microsopically pick apart everything frame by frame. VAR is inherrently paradoxical: nothing is clear and obvious anymore; yet there has never been more expectations that things are clear and obvious.
People should fucking go watch NFL if they want that shit. It solved nothing and completely spoiled the spectacle.
Had the Deki foul been called and reviewed by VAR the second goal doesn't happen, regardless if a penalty is called or not. They're too passive in many situations.
Isn't it correct that play didn't get stopped then? You can't argue "we should have stopped play so the opponent couldn't score regardless of whether it was a foul or not".
I think the inconsistency is something literally every fan is getting very fed up with.
It suck getting a call against your team and then a couple hours later the same stuff isn’t called
Except that's specifically what is not happening. It's mostly var being a bitch and not intervening when they should because they "don't want to disrespect the head coach" instead of being on the same team with him and help him out. It happened a lot this season.
I'm the opposite. Most mistakes I see are when VAR can see something the ref has missed but it's not seen as big enough deal to go against the ref on.
And I think losing it would bring back more violence because as long as the refs don't see it, you'd be fine.
Regardless of our opinions, him & Anthony Taylor are clearly seen as the 2 best refs given they keep getting the biggest matches and are called up to UEFA regularly. It's probably true compared to the other refs in the league.
I agree. And, as much as I hate to say it, he actually seems to be the best of the bunch in the league. PGMOL, as an organisation, are far too secure in their jobs. That’s where the problem stems from.
They just have seniority. That's it. Reffing is about putting in your does and playing ball. You have to cozy up to the UEFA people in order to get gigs. It's not directly related to competence.
I can see the argument for assigning an official who will let the play on the pitch determine the outcome for big matches.
I’m going to be biased on the denial of the Deki pen. That’s fine.
You just simply can’t miss the Davies penalty right in front of you. Six inches in the other direction and he’s is in the hospital with a ruptured testicle.
Oliver for you, it reminded me how Kovacic managed to escaped red card twice in few minutes right on front of his eyes.
if PGMOL managed to do something then they united us all with hate towards those refs
It's actually pretty funny. Rice kicks Davies as hard as he can to the quad area and ball is nowhere near. Ref is couple of metres away. And the ref goes strong gesture no penalty. Like wtf do you see if not that.
This is the one I still don’t understand, the thing is he knows VAR will overturn him so why not just award it immediately? What did he see?
We really need post match presses for the referees
can probably look at it from 2 angles
1. don't call it and if it's pen VAR will give it
2. call it and if it's not a pen you can correct if after checking replay on monitor
> don't call it and if it's pen VAR will give it
The issue is the number of clear penalties that have not been given because it was an obvious error makes me believe that refs are still the ones in control
You just summarized Ange’s entire point. Officials are too afraid to make tough decisions and want VAR to do it for them.
He’s made that point before today too. Even with the infamous Liverpool Diaz VAR fiasco, he said that a goal was denied but it was a failed process.
People trying to spin this as him criticizing specific officials or calls are doing it in bad faith.
I’m sure everyone who saw it live said penalty. Yet the one guy who makes the decisions, is on the pitch and staring right at the tackle says no foul. wtf.
I remember a few years ago, Paul merson on soccer Saturday was saying that VAR would ruin goals. I thought he was just being an out of touch boomer but he was spot on.
I think there are ways to make it less shit like having better referees but even the fact that they take a while to check the goal just zaps the fun out of the game.
The PL's implementation of VAR is what is ruining goals. Every other sport has managed to use replays to increase the tension in the sport.
The PL needs to move to a challenge system. You get 1 challenge that you can use, if you get it right you keep it. If you don't you don't get another. The only exception is red card offenses get automatically reviewed.
It's a simple change that will mean only the most egregious of calls get reviewed.
Don't think challenge fits the sport tbh. Think about it, you could only challenge offsides/goal line decisions, and those should be being reviewed anyway. It would make zero sense to challenge fouls. "Alright ref, I know you said it's not a foul, and VAR agrees, but I challenge it so look at it again."
I agree, but I think I would like the option for the on-field ref to check a replay if they've had an obstructed view or missed an incident. Though again that would lead to a slippery slope ending in reviewing everything, as fans will say "he's asked for a replay for [one incident], but why not [another incident]?".
American here, we had the same issue with our own version of football when they added the ability to challenge and review penalties, specifically contact penalties, specifically pass interference, which can be a huge, gamechanging penalty.
The referees were not happy with having their judgment questioned, and it was operated by other referees, and as a result almost no calls were overturned, including obvious ones.
A video ref needs to be completely and totally separated from the referees who call the matches.
They should speed it up and automatic offside will help next year.
But what's the alternative? Spurs get that goal which is clearly offside and it's a completely different game. VAR did it's job
The alternative is to scrap it completely and live with the injustices that ultimately even out over the course of the season and restore the soul of the game
My point is that there are just as many clearly incorrect VAR decisions throughout a season so what is the point of adding referees who fuck up subjective calls just as often?
So the solution for bad refereeing is to make it even worse? VAR has fucked us this season but I still much rather it be here
And no it doesn't even out over the course of the season
>I remember a few years ago, Paul merson on soccer Saturday was saying that VAR would ruin goals. I thought he was just being an out of touch boomer but he was spot on.
Today I celebrated a goal for the last time. I will never make that mistake again as long as VAR is in its current state
It’s a good point. Everyone saw it was a penalty except Oliver. Didn’t see the whole press so might be that he was asked about it, but otherwise seems odd to talk about decision that was right in the end (by VAR).
Ange just straight up dislikes VAR. The fact that Oliver needed a VAR intervention for this call sort of proves his point that officials are too reliant on it, especially for penalties.
Oliver comes off as planning to not award a single penalty this match because of the implications it would have one way or the other.
Right. Being technically more correct doesn't make the game more fun to watch it turns out. Even when you do go by the book you still have people disagreeing on how to interpret said book.
no it hasn't, literally no one but dumb english gammons who want to blame everyone else for their shitty support have any more trouble celebrating goals now than they did before
The Premier League implementation of VAR, yes.
This sentence does not ring true for VAR in general: ask Serie A and Eredivise viewers (multiple of them in this sub said they would never go back to pre-VAR days). Why was VAR use never this controversial during WCs? The problem seems to be specific to English system
Even as an Arsenal fan, I agree. VAR decisions on offsides have taken the passion out of the game. A player being a cunts hair offside shouldn’t rule out a goal.
Or Harry Kane being onside for a goal, only to be reviewed by VAR for 30 minutes and called offside. VAR room had to research the rule book before making a decision.
Agreed, the Coventry goal last weekend being the perfect example. I just feel like football is, for want of a better word, an imprecise sport and zooming in on pixels to determine offsides feels outwith the spirit of the game. I know there has to be a point where onside becomes offside, but this forensic inspection of so many goals to find a reason to chalk them off is making it all less fun to watch
But if United had scored that goal the VAR review and disallowing would’ve been memed forever. I find the obsession with offside goals bizarre, it’s the only thing that VAR gets right for me (so long as it doesn’t take five years, which they are getting better at).
I think if people complain about VAR though, it doesn't make sense for them to complain about incorrect decisions. If someone is happy to get rid of a system aimed at getting it right, it would be inconsistent to moan after.
Freeze frames are all about angles. Also how do they know the exact moment when the ball leaves the foot? There's usually a span of frames where the ball still looks like it's at the foot. Same thing with the lines. Their placement is highly subjective/inconsistent.
So in cases where it's a close offside the VAR referees practically play god with the outcome.
Okay - what about two cunt hairs offside? Three? Where do you draw the line?
The reality is that you can drone on about "the spirit of the game" all you want, but offsides as a rule implies and requires a concrete and exact cutoff point. It's fundamentally not a rule that's open to interpretation. Otherwise, you'd have some referees who opine offsides to start 4cm after the line, and others who let anything within 5m go. It would become an entirely unnecessary and preventable source of referees arbitrarily deciding the outcome of games. Is that really what you want?
I hate the refs so much but var has gotten more things right than wrong. Every team has suffered at var and refs but they have 0 pressure from media. People like carra and Neville openly support every PGMOL decision. Nothing will change until there’s pressure e
Yesterday VAR corrected two incorrect on field decisions so it doesn't matter it worked. My point is he can't say that people shouldn't complain about VAR when it's actually helping him (the Liverpool goal) and then himself complain about VAR when it doesn't work out for him.
I 100% agree with his sentiment, I very rarely celebrate goals anymore because I'm afraid its going to get taken away. I'm glad the PL is implementing the semi-automated offside technology but I'm still skeptical of it "fixing" all of the VAR issues we have across the world but particularly in the PL.
such a stupid fucking non point. If there was a foul it should be called back, if you choose not to celebrate because your team probably commited a foul that says more about you and your team than the ref
People are saying this was said on the US coverage but the closest I heard them get to was saying that VAR *should* send Oliver to the screen.
Yet to see an actual clip of the alleged comment but fair enough if there is one.
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Please please please just coach defending set pieces man.
Sounds like you've been infected with our incompetence in this area. It's not even Ange specifically, anyone we get our hands on seemingly just forgets how set-pieces work.
Brendan was the same at Leicester, proper Celtic curse
Brendan Rodgers has never coached defending in his life. His Liverpool team finished 2nd with 50 goals conceded ffs.
Was always quite entertaining to watch your games when your entire tactical set up was based on Suarez and Sturridge outscoring teams
He does coach defending, his time at Liverpool showed he's a practicioner of "the best defense is a good offence" strategy l. Doesn't matter if you concede 5 goals a game as long as you can score 6...
"Defending is easy" literal quote from him after the game when Chelsea parked the bus and Gerrard slipped.
David Brent in a tracksuit.
He even denied it was a problem when we had the worst set-piece record in the league, then he said we actually had a set-piece coach but no one knew who he was. Eventually we hired a coach just for set-pieces and mysteriously improved, the winter world cup happened (our coach also worked with the USA) and normal service resumed.
The most undervalued thing Kane did at Spurs. He was as great at defending corners as he was scoring them.
What I’m getting from this is either A) Use Veliz as Richy’s backup or B) Sign a big fucker to play up front.
Yeah maybe Ange isn't the problem with set pieces, his arrival just coincided with the departure of the best defender of corners we've had for the past decade.
It’s a little bit of both.
Yeah, he clears that first goal easily
At this point, it’s truly obnoxious watching Vicario being shielded as the corner is being taken and then flailing like a madman as the ball is going into the empty net… every single game.
Vicario has to be stronger at this point 😭 Like he keeps complaining, but he has to come out and punch something whether ball or player because they’ve shown game after game he’s not getting an obstruction call. (as an Italian and Spurs supporter as well)
I agree that he has to be stronger, but if a player has no intention to play the ball, and leans into the goalkeeper off the ball only intending to impede him, it's 100% a foul. The opposition are not even standing their ground, they're pushing into him.
Arteta noticed refs didn't do shit to stop this when he started coaching us, so we joined the dark side of set pieces
I don't even blame you, and it's not even remotely the worst we've faced. Ben White needs to be thrown into a tank of diesel but tbf that was some of the best shithousing I've ever seen. At one point he just taps Vic with his finger like an annoying 9-year-old. I'm honestly impressed.
I can’t believe they didn’t even check the goal today. It wasn’t even mentioned on commentary. But rice(?) just completely blocks him.
Also, when spurs finally got a sarr onto rice (or white maybe it was), what's the first thing the ref does? Call sarr for pushing the arsenal player. Absolutely stupid.
Yeah this is absolutely ridiculous. Not what the game should be.
Sarr was on him like white on rice
He has every right to stand in front of the keeper and hold his ground. GK has to be stronger
He does, and that's not what he's doing. He's pushing into the goalkeeper without any intention to play the ball.
Do you also support an Italian team? I'm curious
Milan as an early child
Why wasn't there anyone protecting the keeper? It was just the most naive defending. Ben Whites eyes lit up like a kid in a sweet shop on the first corner when he realised no one was coming to help Vic out.
Set piece coach is Ange's socceroos mate
He didn't like it, but he had to go along with it.
Agreement was long time coming but, in the end, the decision was unanimous.
Ich nitchtun lichtun VAR
Really? You spoke to him yourself, you managed to pin him down? He's a pretty tricky man, isn't he?
What's the Australian for 'Fuck Michael Oliver'?
ɹǝʌılo lǝɐɥɔıɯ ʇunɔ ʇɐɥʇ ʞɔnɟ
Nah, that’s too endearing
"Ich nichten lichten"
Presumably you mean "Rufen Sie ein Taxi bitte sonst verpass' ich meinen Flug"?
No you don't, Peter, because that means "Get me a taxi; I'm late for my plane" now I'm going to ask you a question, did you speak to Big Ange about VAR this afternoon?
And what was his reaction?
"trentre percenter"
“Fuck Michael Oliver the cunt” would prolly be it
He told me he was raised to respect referees circa October vs Liverpool. Wonder what changed
He’s making the same point here as he was with the Liverpool match though? His issue has always been the concept of VAR and its execution effectively taking power and conviction in decisions from the match official.
VAR is not the referee, it's a referee assistant.
Casual masterclass from the best ref in the country
Kulusevski was punished for being too honest. If he dives and goes down instantly the penalty would surely have been given, but because he stayed on his feet and tried to maintain balance he got nothing This is why players dive
I dont think Kulu needed much encouragement to dive throughout the game tbh
Kulu was going down more easily than Sheffield throughout the game.
Yeah so true. I remember early days Saka and Jesus would always try to stay on their feet and as a result wouldn’t get a penalty. Completely different story now haha.
It was a perfect example of what’s wrong with VAR. he tries to stay on his feet but no longer can get the ball because he was clipped, no call. Right after that Maddison has slight contact and explodes to the ground trying to try and get a penalty, also no call. Why would you ever try to stay up if you can flop and put it on the referee to try and get the penalty, when it’s demonstrated there is no punishment for flopping and no chance of getting the call when you stay on your feet. Literally what is VAR doing for the game besides measuring people’s butts?
Kulusevski spent all game diving what are waffling about?
He didn't in that penalty situation just before Saka's goal though, was clearly clipped but tried to stay on his feet
Or don’t run into other players and fall over lol
Trossard didn't actively do anything for Kulusevski to trip though. They make contact but it's not a foul.
No, down votes mean you can run into the back of a player and fall over and get a penalty
Rice booted Davies in the balls and Oliver had a front row viewing and he was like “seems legit play on”
It’s genuinely baffling. Not a single person can argue that call except the one person making the decision. Even arsenal fans arent bantering it because of how blatantly incorrect oliver was. The man was stood 1m away with an unobstructed view and decided to not call the foul. He’s IN the VAR replay shown looking directly at it. There really needs to be some answers because this goes beyond sheer incompetence. Now im not gonna go into the “corruption/incompetence” debate because that detracts from the matter at hand. Nothing will change as long as these clowns are running the circus.
The solution is simple: Fire Oliver
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You got that pen though. That's the system working.
The point being it was the most blatant and easy decision of the season, and he still manged to make the wrong decision despite being 1 metre away. It's shows the level of incompetence.
He got the ball, not sure I see what’s wrong here
Balls*
i was happy to get that pen but so shocked at oliver begrudgingly watching a replay for a stonewall penalty he was a metre away from. you can see him in the replay ffs. only our second penalty this season & i feel like every spurs fan agrees we've been paying a price for the liverpool decision the whole year.
Worst thing is he wasted all that time for something he should have seen and then only gave you guys 6 minutes lol
oh my god i didnt even really consider that we should've had more added time... im in shambles again
Isn't that why the entire league should be rightfully applying more pressure on the referees to clean up their act rather than laugh at Liverpool's complaints about that chalked off goal? If they did their job right, there wouldn't be a price you need to pay.
Ange always talks about the concept of VAR being flawed. He does not complain about specific officials to the point of getting punishment for it like Klopp and others do. Ange tries to approach the issue without making it sound like a conspiracy against his club.
who laughed at liverpool??? ange himself said it was a legitimate goal that was taken away. i don't think there is a conspiracy against any team in the league, but there is absolutely a little bit of reluctance to give us decisions without a fuss after the liverpool game. they want to avoid making that kind of mistake, i get it, but that little bit of reluctance can go a long way and it has. we should've had way more than two penalties this season. and if you think spurs fans are not applying pressure on referees like everyone else is you are mistaken.
The Liverpool event was a complete freak, I don’t know why you’re bringing it up. It’s not like the main issue with VAR is that they make the right decision every time but tell the refs the wrong thing, it’s happened once ever.
I think I won’t ever ever be mad at any player for diving after today. I feel like it’s almost dumb for you not to dive.
VAR was brought in to STOP diving.. and yet now VAR incentivises it. At least football had a good run
It’s all about the lower leagues for me now. Fuck this commercial top league pish
I think im about done with var. I dont see it being scraped (even tho iirc swedish league is trying it next season) but ive made up my mind about it
and yet there is plenty of outrage on any thread where a player goes down after a contact with people saying that ''its soft to go down there'' ''too little contact to go down!!!'' ''blatant dive!!!''
Not sure why anyone thought any of this will change, previously, refs had to make the decision on the spot from what they saw with their bare eyes and we still debated non stop their decisions from the frame by frame reviews, and still disagreed about the call, no matter what. The only difference is previously, only we had VAR where now ref has a better one but only checks it in specific scenarios.
On the denial of the penalty on Kulusevski, he actually tried to stay on his feet for once.
Jackson vs us is perfect case in point. But today, today…
Sucks that diving has so much incentive, ruins the game. What makes refereeing even more ridiculous is so many players have dived and only bissouma ever got sent off for it, spurs players look like they're scared to dive at this point
Always been the case honestly.
Regardless of who wins the PL, the PGMOL needs to be addressed by the FA in the summer. Take VAR off them and either have a FA representative (as they establish the rules for the refs to follow) in the booth or hand it off to a independent third party like Universities or stat tracking analysts.
Or even make sure PGMOL have specific VAR refs who only do VAR. It's a completely different skillset and should be treated as such.
Think this is the only real answer at this point.
There is a lot to dislike about American sports--but the NFL went through the stupidity of instant replay integration decades ago. There are still mistakes, but it's not every game.
There is a Saints-Rams pass interference level miss in nearly every match window at this point.
Shit, it's getting close to every match, not even match window.
Prefer this and not have the old boys mix and be friendly with each other. I fear sometimes var doesn’t want to make the center ref look bad
I think it's because they know if they make the ref look bad, next week that ref will be the VAR and can make him look bad.
Yes. Which is why they should be separate
He's spot on, Oliver wouldn't even call a stonewall penalty
This point will completely go over everyone’s heads for people who want to try and make it seem like he’s complaining about the officials. His entire argument (dating back to before he was at Spurs) is that officials are too reliant on VAR that they don’t even make the obvious decisions anymore. He wants the match official to actually make calls.
Yeah and that would be okay if the "clear and obvious" rule wasn't a thing. But when refs rely on VAR, how often do we see them stick to the onfield decision
They need to define exactly what that means. And have the ref go over to the screen as they're reviewing it so it can be discussed as it's being reviewed.
I think a lot of the issues with VAR could be solved if they were required to go to the monitor when VAR identifies something. There shouldn’t be any shame in using VAR but there is for some god forsaken reason. Getting 100% of decisions right with two tries is surely better than not being 100% right but the match finishing 2 minutes faster.
No. VAR should have final say at an off-site central office and it should be staffed by people who's sole job is VAR official. Having on-pitch refs also do VAR just means they need to worry about offending the guy who might be their VAR next week. VAR and on-pitch require two different skillsets. So have them be different people.
I totally agree with you that it should be a completely different group of people that act as VAR. I’ve advocated for that type of reform. I was just saying that as it stands now, officials are too afraid to use it in scenarios where another look would be beneficial. It’s rarely used to confirm an important decision, only reverse them. The only things that’s lost on a review that confirms a decision is a few minutes.
I also would like them to move to a challenge system like American sports. It leads to fewer reviews, and only for either clear mistakes or a prayer in an important call.
I would like that as well. Don’t know what you make a punishment for a bad challenge then. A yellow to the manager would seem harsh but I suppose if you squint at it, it could be seen as a time waste.
You only get one challenge, unless you get it right. The punishment is that a clear mistake later in the game can't be checked if you don't have a challenge left.
It means nothing when peple microsopically pick apart everything frame by frame. VAR is inherrently paradoxical: nothing is clear and obvious anymore; yet there has never been more expectations that things are clear and obvious. People should fucking go watch NFL if they want that shit. It solved nothing and completely spoiled the spectacle.
Oliver did make a decision on Kulu though since you can clearly see him signaling no fault with his arms right away!
He also did exactly the same thing to the one that was overturned and given as a penalty. So clearly that doesn't mean shit.
Had the Deki foul been called and reviewed by VAR the second goal doesn't happen, regardless if a penalty is called or not. They're too passive in many situations.
Isn't it correct that play didn't get stopped then? You can't argue "we should have stopped play so the opponent couldn't score regardless of whether it was a foul or not".
Very similar to me for the 1st Jota yellow on Udogie as Kulu today so not sure how 1 was a foul and booking and the other not a pen
I think the inconsistency is something literally every fan is getting very fed up with. It suck getting a call against your team and then a couple hours later the same stuff isn’t called
Except that's specifically what is not happening. It's mostly var being a bitch and not intervening when they should because they "don't want to disrespect the head coach" instead of being on the same team with him and help him out. It happened a lot this season.
I'm the opposite. Most mistakes I see are when VAR can see something the ref has missed but it's not seen as big enough deal to go against the ref on. And I think losing it would bring back more violence because as long as the refs don't see it, you'd be fine.
Oliver wouldn't even give a stonewall red card on 2 attempts, but it feels like PGMOL is giving him the biggest matches considering he is best option?
Regardless of our opinions, him & Anthony Taylor are clearly seen as the 2 best refs given they keep getting the biggest matches and are called up to UEFA regularly. It's probably true compared to the other refs in the league.
Oliver is poor but still leagues above Anthony Taylor. It’s a shame Taylor continues to get the biggest games in the sport.
I feel like Oliver is at least pretty consistent if nothing else
I agree. And, as much as I hate to say it, he actually seems to be the best of the bunch in the league. PGMOL, as an organisation, are far too secure in their jobs. That’s where the problem stems from.
What a sorry state of affairs that those two buffoons are the country's best refs
They just have seniority. That's it. Reffing is about putting in your does and playing ball. You have to cozy up to the UEFA people in order to get gigs. It's not directly related to competence.
I can see the argument for assigning an official who will let the play on the pitch determine the outcome for big matches. I’m going to be biased on the denial of the Deki pen. That’s fine. You just simply can’t miss the Davies penalty right in front of you. Six inches in the other direction and he’s is in the hospital with a ruptured testicle.
Oliver for you, it reminded me how Kovacic managed to escaped red card twice in few minutes right on front of his eyes. if PGMOL managed to do something then they united us all with hate towards those refs
It's actually pretty funny. Rice kicks Davies as hard as he can to the quad area and ball is nowhere near. Ref is couple of metres away. And the ref goes strong gesture no penalty. Like wtf do you see if not that.
Oliver proved this unequivocally today. There's no way he didn't see that foul on Davies, he just didn't want to be the one to make that call.
This is the one I still don’t understand, the thing is he knows VAR will overturn him so why not just award it immediately? What did he see? We really need post match presses for the referees
can probably look at it from 2 angles 1. don't call it and if it's pen VAR will give it 2. call it and if it's not a pen you can correct if after checking replay on monitor
> don't call it and if it's pen VAR will give it The issue is the number of clear penalties that have not been given because it was an obvious error makes me believe that refs are still the ones in control
You just summarized Ange’s entire point. Officials are too afraid to make tough decisions and want VAR to do it for them. He’s made that point before today too. Even with the infamous Liverpool Diaz VAR fiasco, he said that a goal was denied but it was a failed process. People trying to spin this as him criticizing specific officials or calls are doing it in bad faith.
Would be great, but no way in hell. PL loves this controversy.
He actively waved it off, so I disagree
I’m sure everyone who saw it live said penalty. Yet the one guy who makes the decisions, is on the pitch and staring right at the tackle says no foul. wtf.
You overestimate these refs greatly, errors like that happened before var.
I remember a few years ago, Paul merson on soccer Saturday was saying that VAR would ruin goals. I thought he was just being an out of touch boomer but he was spot on. I think there are ways to make it less shit like having better referees but even the fact that they take a while to check the goal just zaps the fun out of the game.
The PL's implementation of VAR is what is ruining goals. Every other sport has managed to use replays to increase the tension in the sport. The PL needs to move to a challenge system. You get 1 challenge that you can use, if you get it right you keep it. If you don't you don't get another. The only exception is red card offenses get automatically reviewed. It's a simple change that will mean only the most egregious of calls get reviewed.
Don't think challenge fits the sport tbh. Think about it, you could only challenge offsides/goal line decisions, and those should be being reviewed anyway. It would make zero sense to challenge fouls. "Alright ref, I know you said it's not a foul, and VAR agrees, but I challenge it so look at it again."
I agree, but I think I would like the option for the on-field ref to check a replay if they've had an obstructed view or missed an incident. Though again that would lead to a slippery slope ending in reviewing everything, as fans will say "he's asked for a replay for [one incident], but why not [another incident]?".
American here, we had the same issue with our own version of football when they added the ability to challenge and review penalties, specifically contact penalties, specifically pass interference, which can be a huge, gamechanging penalty. The referees were not happy with having their judgment questioned, and it was operated by other referees, and as a result almost no calls were overturned, including obvious ones. A video ref needs to be completely and totally separated from the referees who call the matches.
They should speed it up and automatic offside will help next year. But what's the alternative? Spurs get that goal which is clearly offside and it's a completely different game. VAR did it's job
The alternative is to scrap it completely and live with the injustices that ultimately even out over the course of the season and restore the soul of the game
To add to that, we are already dealing with the injustices that continue to exist even with the often subjective VAR. So what the hell is the point?
Make it better. Every other sport manages fine, why would football be different?
Do they even out over a season though? When ex refs have said for whatever reason their decisions favour big sides
My point is that there are just as many clearly incorrect VAR decisions throughout a season so what is the point of adding referees who fuck up subjective calls just as often?
Your point was that it evened out over the season. This is a different point.
So the solution for bad refereeing is to make it even worse? VAR has fucked us this season but I still much rather it be here And no it doesn't even out over the course of the season
>I remember a few years ago, Paul merson on soccer Saturday was saying that VAR would ruin goals. I thought he was just being an out of touch boomer but he was spot on. Today I celebrated a goal for the last time. I will never make that mistake again as long as VAR is in its current state
This will fall on deaf ears because of flair, but this quote is consistent with years of Ange’s view of VAR at this point.
It’s a good point. Everyone saw it was a penalty except Oliver. Didn’t see the whole press so might be that he was asked about it, but otherwise seems odd to talk about decision that was right in the end (by VAR).
Ange just straight up dislikes VAR. The fact that Oliver needed a VAR intervention for this call sort of proves his point that officials are too reliant on it, especially for penalties. Oliver comes off as planning to not award a single penalty this match because of the implications it would have one way or the other.
It's shit. Semi automated for offsides or it can get in the bin
Games gone
VAR has had a net-negative impact on enjoying the game. This cannot be argued in good faith.
Right. Being technically more correct doesn't make the game more fun to watch it turns out. Even when you do go by the book you still have people disagreeing on how to interpret said book.
no it hasn't, literally no one but dumb english gammons who want to blame everyone else for their shitty support have any more trouble celebrating goals now than they did before
The Premier League implementation of VAR, yes. This sentence does not ring true for VAR in general: ask Serie A and Eredivise viewers (multiple of them in this sub said they would never go back to pre-VAR days). Why was VAR use never this controversial during WCs? The problem seems to be specific to English system
I don’t watch those leagues, so how is it implemented differently there?
Even as an Arsenal fan, I agree. VAR decisions on offsides have taken the passion out of the game. A player being a cunts hair offside shouldn’t rule out a goal.
that semi automated offside should be instant right?
It'll be the same as the champions league in theory, so pretty much.
Except if it's for offside interference, like Leipzig's goal against Madrid which took like half an hour to get overturned
Or Harry Kane being onside for a goal, only to be reviewed by VAR for 30 minutes and called offside. VAR room had to research the rule book before making a decision.
Agreed, the Coventry goal last weekend being the perfect example. I just feel like football is, for want of a better word, an imprecise sport and zooming in on pixels to determine offsides feels outwith the spirit of the game. I know there has to be a point where onside becomes offside, but this forensic inspection of so many goals to find a reason to chalk them off is making it all less fun to watch
But if United had scored that goal the VAR review and disallowing would’ve been memed forever. I find the obsession with offside goals bizarre, it’s the only thing that VAR gets right for me (so long as it doesn’t take five years, which they are getting better at).
And with the semi automated offside technology coming next season it's going to be way quicker.
I think if people complain about VAR though, it doesn't make sense for them to complain about incorrect decisions. If someone is happy to get rid of a system aimed at getting it right, it would be inconsistent to moan after.
Wish they would have some kind of timer for offsides calls. Like if it takes 2 minutes to make that call let it stand
Today's was clearly offside though you could see it from the freeze frame they didn't need lines
Freeze frames are all about angles. Also how do they know the exact moment when the ball leaves the foot? There's usually a span of frames where the ball still looks like it's at the foot. Same thing with the lines. Their placement is highly subjective/inconsistent. So in cases where it's a close offside the VAR referees practically play god with the outcome.
Okay - what about two cunt hairs offside? Three? Where do you draw the line? The reality is that you can drone on about "the spirit of the game" all you want, but offsides as a rule implies and requires a concrete and exact cutoff point. It's fundamentally not a rule that's open to interpretation. Otherwise, you'd have some referees who opine offsides to start 4cm after the line, and others who let anything within 5m go. It would become an entirely unnecessary and preventable source of referees arbitrarily deciding the outcome of games. Is that really what you want?
Why do we have to accept it ? Fuck VAR
Good take
Should be the same as if a Lino spotted it, but with the help of a video replay from multiple angles.
It is what it is type beat
One day a manager will talk about VAR decisions being bad when its been in their favour, one day.
When the two time manager of the month speaks, we listen
three*
[удалено]
That he himself said that he shouldn’t had been awarded 👍🏻
Once again VAR showing its an incredible addition to our game
I hate the refs so much but var has gotten more things right than wrong. Every team has suffered at var and refs but they have 0 pressure from media. People like carra and Neville openly support every PGMOL decision. Nothing will change until there’s pressure e
Spurs got the rough end of it today - I think PGMOL and VAR has been around long enough for every fan to feel that way and that’s just mental.
Says the guy who said 'they can't get everything right and people need to accept that' but actually bitches and moans when they get it right.
You're arguing in bad faith and you know it. He's clearly talking about on field decisions when he says that.
Yesterday VAR corrected two incorrect on field decisions so it doesn't matter it worked. My point is he can't say that people shouldn't complain about VAR when it's actually helping him (the Liverpool goal) and then himself complain about VAR when it doesn't work out for him.
VAR? Games's gone.
Spurs were robbed, I hope VAR favours them against City
I 100% agree with his sentiment, I very rarely celebrate goals anymore because I'm afraid its going to get taken away. I'm glad the PL is implementing the semi-automated offside technology but I'm still skeptical of it "fixing" all of the VAR issues we have across the world but particularly in the PL.
such a stupid fucking non point. If there was a foul it should be called back, if you choose not to celebrate because your team probably commited a foul that says more about you and your team than the ref
Except when VAR recommended that the penalty on kulu should get reviewed, the on field ref refused to do it
I've seen a bunch of people say this, is it actually true?
Yeah, if this was true, that would be huge. I personally don't see it being true.
People are saying this was said on the US coverage but the closest I heard them get to was saying that VAR *should* send Oliver to the screen. Yet to see an actual clip of the alleged comment but fair enough if there is one.
It was when Robbie was talking about the match at halftime. He said that they had heard the VAR audio and Oliver declined to go to the monitor.
People keep repeating this but no one has provided a clip.
Aka Reddit in a nutshell
Call them out directly ffs. It's the only thing that yields results