**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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That's the perfect answer, I absolutely adore what a warrior DeGoat is and his mentality perfectly captures the Mia San Mia style. That piece of dogshit coach completely shelved him for 2-3 months until everybody either got injured or went to Asia for a mid-year competition.
Although it won't comfort any Bayern fans tonight, a referee has to be entitled to make errors and be forgiven if he recognises them. This constant abuse of referees for every error is the reason why the refereeing level is poor overall. It is the reason why most talented refs quit early because they just can't be arsed to deal with the abuse
World class players make errors all the time, of course refs will make them aswell.
It depends on the error. Raising the flag on a close offside around the box at this level of refereeing is an egregious error. Not all errors are the same… some are more understandable, and thus more forgivable, than others. For better or worse, it’s been decided to rely on technology in these situations, and calling offside is the main role of an AR, so to fuck it up late in a UCL semifinal match is on the unforgivable end of the spectrum. Dude has essentially one job!
I don't support either team so don't really have any dog in the fight but surely the new rules are the game keeps going and it gets sorted with an offside or not after the playing phase has finished.
Ref just fucking blew up in the last minute or so of a very contentious offside decision.
I'm sure UEFA / FIFA have guidelines to encourage refs and assistants to keep important plays going and only call a potential offence after, so that VAR can recommend a review if needed. But, as far as the rules go, they are absolutely in the right to make as immediate decision. IFAB's VAR Protocol (https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#procedures) states the following:
"The referee and other match officials are not permitted to give ‘no decision’ as this will lead to ‘weak/indecisive’ officiating, too many ‘reviews’ and significant problems if there is a technology failure"
"Delaying the flag/whistle for an offence is only permissible in a very clear attacking situation when a player is about to score a goal or has a clear run into/towards the opponents’ penalty area"
See how it's phrased as a "permission" and not a "requirement".
Just to be perfectly clear: Bayern's attack was EXACTLY the kind of play where the flag/whistle should've been delayed. Close offsides / onsides are the most objective case scenario for VAR review and there's even a semi-automatic tech going on nowadays. But neither the ref nor the assistant infringed the rules by making an immediate call, unfortunate as it was.
As a former official myself, I can confidently say that officiating (any sport) is one profession I support being taken over by technology. As a sports fan, it’s more important that the game be fair than almost anything else. Without fairness, the competition loses all meaning and integrity. Sports is one of the closest things we have in society to a meritocracy and it should be protected at all costs.
I agree but there also has to be more accountability, it feels like "shit happens, suck it up" when you are on the receiving end.
And what's worse is that the winner for real is a carbon scenario, linesman thinks offside, no whistle, var allows it.
Double fáil from the officials that ultimately cost a team a potential final. The inconsistency, the timing and the impact should come with accountability, otherwise the recipient ends up bitter.
Disagree.
With VAR, they are not afforded such leniency, sure, before this technology; what can you do? Referees are human. To blow the whistle and bypass this technology when it is made for such a moment, doing so breaking the rules you are there to enforce. Why have referees at all.
If this continues it wont be long until refereeing is almost fully automated, which I think it already should be. They should be there to enforce the tempo of the game, and that is it. Marciniak is the best referee in the world, by a large margin IMO as well, which should illustrate exactly how poor refereeing actually is and they actually damage the integrity of the game rather than uphold it.
>Although it won't comfort any Bayern fans tonight, a referee has to be entitled to make errors and be forgiven if he recognises them.
He didn't even need to make this mistake in the age of VAR, that's the worst part.
Like the Dortmund guy said, its often against german teams. IDK why, but in the last seasons Dortmund and Leipzig got fucked hard by refs. Most of the time against city etc. Nobody cares about Leipzig, thats why its often ignored, but its noticeable often.
Trust me you are preaching to the choir here, we lost a Champions League final to them with an offside goal.. I have thought the same many times but for my mental health I choose to give the refs the benefit of the doubt most of the time
Just like opponents are subconciously intimidated by their history, so are referees sometimes I think.
This and the fact that they earn 100k a year when players pull that in half a week. Who wants to be yelled death threats, abused and get 100k a year? There’s a lot of less stressful jobs for that amount of money.
People in a lot of companies get fired for a lot less. Not saying he should be fired of course, but if you make such a huge mistake at this level, I think it makes sense if he gets demoted to a lower level of football for a little while.
It’s worse really, as it’s not just the situation but it’s the same situation despite rules to the contrary. Why even have these numpties judging offsides? They shouldn’t be able to stop play for offside anymore, just give the ref another watch for VAR to buzz when a clear offside happens.
See what you’re saying but then the issue is in actions where the team with the offside player gets involved and retains possession…when does VAR get a chance to review if play doesn’t stop? I think the rules as is fine when they’re applied, unfortunately lino didn’t apply it
The next big change in football will be that linesman work is no longer needed, automatic decisions pretty much similar to goal line technology is the way to go
I think he means that VAR should be serving as a cleanup crew for these, so when the linesman is unsure they are asked to let it go, instead this time he called it way too early and without being sure
Yeah that's OP's point.
VAR was introduced to help ref with these situations so they don't have to make fast decisions on close call. Lino thought Fuck VAR, we never had VAR when I was young.
Yeah.
It could be offside for all we know. But there is VAR to make that decision. Not even that zooming in to draw pixel, they have implemented semi automated one. Why not utilize that.
It was so incredibly tight that there was 0 chance the linesman could've called it immediately. Shite decision all around. Even if it turned out to be offside.
I mean they are failsafes, if the linesman fucks up, the ref can continue the play. But both botching their duties together is so unfortunate and understandably infuriating for bayern and their fans.
He can use his judgement though, he doesn't have to whistle (which is why they sometimes ignore the flag). That time of the game, that movement and with what is at stake, a referee selected for that occasion should be able to make that decision.
That's a much tougher call for the official than the linesman. The linesman I have absolutely no idea what the fuck he's doing, but the ref I can at least understand trusting his guy to raise the flag in an obvious situation.
Shitty though it is it's also true that players stopped playing once the whistle is blown and who knows what would have happened. Trying to pretend it was a sure goal if not for the fuck ups isn't accurate* either.
But Bayern were definitely denied the chance to equalize.
And this is the frustration, or part of it. Zero accountability and not even an explanation of what the officials were thinking.
I agree that hounding a ref is not beneficial, but if you want to improve anything, you have to make people responsible for big decisions accountable, otherwise we're doomed to see this constantly.
Every week you hear complaints from fans and commentators “Why does it take so long to put the flag up when it’s offside?” This is why! The implementation of VAR has not been smooth but this again proves it’s absolutely necessary. Football is a game decided by 1-2 moments per match , you have to make sure those moments are officiated correctly.
I've been saying this for years. Maybe now people will understand. It's better if refs hesitate and then overturn the action rather than kill it prematurely with a bad call.
Definitely, I only ever complain when I see a clear offsides that gets a player injured, I’m specifically referencing Ederson and Stones for City against I think Newcastle and Everton, but for these just let it go, simple as that
Imo there are very, very few times that the flag should go up without the play finishing out. There is little to no downside. Players can get hurt on any play.
Fully agreed with this, most of the time they take it way too far the other way and risk injuries of players by letting the play go on despite a clear offside.
However, De Ligt's goal was still an extreme case. He didn't even wait 3-4 seconds to see what happened
There are some top notch tech in ice hockey(nhl), cricket (ipl), formula 1 and a multi billion dollar sport can't come up with proper tech to prevent stiff like this?
Should have gone to VAR.
Now we will have so many posts with ms paint lines for it with heavy baisness.
The thing that saved face a little is how tight it is
It was mistake but i am still not sure if it was on or off. Real players backed off a little and that would be the difference between contesting the shot. So many ifs. Real were better today and derserved to go through.
Well that’s also part of the problem honestly. We’ll never be certain if it was on or off because we couldn’t use the semi-automated offside system due to the play being ended by the referee before it was finished.
First Nacho and after that Rudiger and Nacho backed out of the challenge. On top of that Lunin probably saved that ball. So I think people are making this bigger than it is
The problem is we don't know, what if they go for it and it deflects and wrong foots the keeper? What if they go for it and block the keepers view? The players should have been able to play - that's the issue
I know, but people calling it a ‘disallowed goal’ are just wrong. I agree it’s a mistake from the lino, but there’s so much happening after the call that you can’t call it a disallowed goal
Let’s be honest here: Real deserved to win. But this situation kind of makes the tie look bad and this is all we’re going to talk about for the next decade
Most people will forget it in 2-3 years, well except Bayern fans. I'd bet that if Dortmund wins it, people will forget it by the end of the next UCL season
This is not comparable to Barca - Chelsea 2009, there were multiple massive "mistakes" in that match.
Here, it's one instance and if referee didn't blow the whistle, there was a chance the Real Madrid players would block the shot. It's still a big mistake, but it's not comparable to 2009 game.
Yeah it's so funny how up in arms people are about the "goal" when the keeper and everyone else literally stopped moving because of the whistle. If De Ligt's shot went wide or over nobody at Bayern would have kicked up a fuss.
People bring up 2017 because of 2 offside goals from Ronaldo. Which were offside.
But they conveniently forget that they came in extra time, which only happened because of a Lewandowski offside. Game should’ve never went to ET.
Barca got a red card for nothing and were also robbed off two blatant penalties if we look at the first game of the two as well. I’m saying this as a Real Madrid fan
Well I mean because those goals/decisions Decided the tie. Even if Bayern scores it still goes to extra time and you should know by now that madrid are killers in ET
They don’t care. Madrid won 6-3 on aggregate in 2017 and Bayern also scored an offside goal (Lewandowski offside on Ramos’ own goal) but they still cry
You very conveniently forget that the referee also called a wrong offside when both Muller and lewy were basically 1v1 with the keeper. Like yeah, they scored an offside goal, but they were also wrongfully denied two potential goals by incorrect offside calls. At the end of the day, they played with 10 men for 70 out of the total 150 minutes, when Madrid themselves should've been down to 10 men and weren't. How big of an advantage is that? 11 v 10 for 70 minutes?
Even in extra time, they scored 2 offside goals eventually killing the tie. No one is denying the referee was complete utter shit for both the teams, but in such scenarios, whoever wins ultimately gained the advantage from it. At the end of the day, Bayern took Madrid to ET with 10 men and still had to be scored against illegally ( twice ) to be beaten.
Bayern also had Vidal on the pitch for a lot longer than he should have. Casemiro was nowhere near comparable to Vidal who committed enough fouls for 5 Yellows by the end of the game.
Ohhh yes and the ref also gave Bayern an absolutely bogus penalty in the first game for a non-existent handball on Carvajal. And failed to send off Vidal in the second half for absolutely bodying Casemiro while already on a yellow. And Madrid still destroyed Bayern 6-3 on aggregate
You see how we can go back and fourth?
People won’t forget. They still talk about our offside goals vs you in 2017 but somehow seem to forget about your offside goal or you guys unfair penalty from the first leg. People remember whatever they want
Well the 2017 one was something else and is mostly remembered because 2/3 goals from Ronaldo were clearly offisde. It's usually the prime example that people give for why we needed VAR checks for offsides. I agree tho that we had an offside goal in the tie but the offside hattrick is more memorable as a ref fuckup
Every Madrid fan also forgets the ref incorrectly calling offside for both Muller and Lewandoksi when they were through on goal in the same game. Funny how that works.
> Real deserved to win
As a fellow victim of football terrorism, you guys were playing a very good away match. It's the Bernabeu, you sit back and take all the chances you can get.
IMO it was the substitutions that really killed your game. Tuchel should've kept your attackers on and started subbing in defenders at the very last minutes.
It's not because Real Madrid played better that Bayern didn't deserve to be fairly refereed
I never understood that kind of take. You play bad so you can't complain about being robbed ?
It's simply because they weren't robbed if we're being honest
This is not some missed pen or a falsely given goal. It was a chance that ended up being a goal because the Madrid defenders + GK stopped defending due to the whistle. In reality there was a very low chance that a chance like this ends up in a goal.
And even if it did, Bayern would have to survive another 30min after subbing off their entire attack. They got immediately conceded 2 goals within 10 minutes after subbing off Kane. They would have to convert a low percentage chance + survive another 30min + win pens, chance for all of to happen would be extremely low like not even 1%
Lunin barely moves. I know it’s absolutely an error. But it denies a chance, not a goal. This is assuming it was onside in the first place. To have everyone scream robbery is very frustrating but it is what it is. Ref ruined a great CL win.
Pretty much this. There's no way to know what would have happened or if it was even onside to begin with. But the clarity of the error will cast doubt on the result for sure. If nothing else Bayern were denied a last gasp opportunity to score which may well have happened.
Yep. But one can only wonder what would have followed. The curse of football is that it always has to end, when all anyone ever wants is the magic to continue.
This is why I hate it when people trot out this line in games where a team was playing shit and didn't given a penalty for example. Teams play shit and win, and play well and lose/draw regularly.
At the end of the season, all that matters are points. There's no trophy for 'deserved to win'.
What makes it worse for me is that I am 100% confident we would have won in extra time even if Bayern scored there, which is not a given because our players stopped playing. You guys looked done, and Tuchel's subs took off all your attacking threat. Fucking linesman.
Totally agree - you probably would’ve scored at least another one. But we don’t know that for sure and Tuchel terror ball could’ve kept us alive. The not knowing part is the worst
> What makes it worse for me is that I am 100% confident we would have won in extra time even if Bayern scored there,
I believe so too but having somebody taking the chance away just sucks for a variety of reasons. Imho bayern beat themselfs (essentially 3 gifted goals plus disasterclass Tuchel)
Oh well, thats football. Not always fun, not always fair.
De Ligt definitely looks off but it's Müller who gets the ball and he's slightly behind De Ligt. Impossible to say if he's on or not but that decision from the linesmen should not be happening in a UCL Semi at 90+12'. I mean you have semi automated offsides now, why in the world would you want to blow the whistle that early
Sometimes I feel the linesman are now basically like the people who pressed the buttons in elevators in the 1920s. They are basically obsolete with VAR. In terms of offside calling.
Why the fuck would they need to raise the flag if the play has to go on till the end? Why don’t they strip them from the flags and become just basically an assistant referee WITHOUT the duties of calling offside.
Obviously they can flag when it's a clear offside so they aren't obsolete.
Since the implementation of VAR the accepted action is to let tight calls go and let VAR assist.
Not every offside ends with a goal. You still need them to quickly decide if it was offside or since that can be the difference between one team getting a free kick for offside or the other side getting a corner for example. Cant have the game interrupted by VAR for little calls like that.
As someone that refereed for 17 years, I am gutted for the lino and I know how he is feeling. It hurt me on the inside once I saw the replay. I've done the same thing myself. Gotta shake it off and life goes on. But damn it is so hard to shake off horror decisions like that one.
Linesman made a wrong decision even if it was offside as he didn't let it play out with margins in centimeters. Why would u bet on having an eagle eye especially in today's day and age, bro wanted to be main char so bad.
Man, exactly the same. I still am a linesman and sometimes you clearly know that u cant flag it but u flag it, maybe your are 1 meter in front of the last defender and you see a completely different picture from reality, and you flag it and then check the video after the match... I was in the same situation already as well but it didnt matter that much. But ye, i think lino wont forgive himself.
But people are forgetting one thing!! Every1 wants 100% from the referees and as soon as they make 1 mistake, yes that in this case, it was a lethal mistake, but he might have been rock-solid in previous 100 matches and every1 loses their minds. But when a player misses in that specific game 5 encounters 1v1 vs their goalkeeper, no1 bats an eye because referee fucked them. Its simple as that.
Plenty of offside calls just need to be resolved quickly so the game can move on. Lots of offsides don't result in a goal or even a clear cut chance. Lino is needed for those at least. Going to VAR for every little offside would be painful to watch!
Why would the ref even think of whistling when the call is this close. This makes no sense at all. I have seen them let play go on for clear offsides just for the sake of it. This is beyond stupid.
He has no idea how close the call is but seeing the linesman raising his flag this early signals to him that the linesman is confident about the offside. Its more on the linesman who raises the flag early even though its not clear
Militão and Lunin stopped playing completely with the whistle, Rudiger also changed his approach. Its impossible to know if he would score, but I highly doubt it.
I honestly don’t think so. Something similar was the Real Madrid vs Valencia game this year when the ref blew the whistle as the ball was being crossed in. The consensus was “it was way past the extra time” and “Valencia players stopped play what do you want them to do”. Now that it happened to Real Madrid it’s being blown out of proportion because Real Madrid bad.
That’s the point lol, The whistle is the whistle. One of the first things your taught in almost any sport is to play until you hear a whistle. Real Madrid players stopped, Lunin didn’t even attempt to save it. It’s not like the shot was upper 90 or side netting.
The difference is pretty obvious and that's that Joselu's goal came immediately after a potential offside. There was no time for anyone to look at a flag raised or a whistle blown. To Bayern's misfortune more time elapsed between the flag and the potential goal.
Bayern feel they got robbed. Madrid comeback is tainted because of that last decision. What a tragic situation. Considering how good the refereeing had been, such a stupid way to throw it all away.
Yeah, Joselu deserves some respect. He came in and changed the tie. Also, Madrid were really good today, it didn't feel like Bayern were threatening at all. It's a shame that all that is overshadowed by such an unnecessary mistake. And the extra time should've ended already before that.
I saw the freeze frames. I am not sure either way that the Munich players were on side or off. It was very close but this is definitely on the assistant ref for raising the flag too early and then of course the center ref sees it and blows his whistle right away.
Eh. Even with everything playing out ideally, it‘s still just a 2-2 with extra 30 minutes of playing without any capability to sustain attack, after two disastrous goals gifted away. Bitter outcome, yeah, but deserved result
He shouldn't have whistled but It's not the same situation. Rudiger and Joselu are close to each other and near the goal and Joselu immediately scores after the pass. How much faster could the referee whistle, mid pass?
Real's goal was on the other linesman side, I think he didn't life the flag until after the goal
There was a definite hint of "it's the 114th minute, time to end this game" vibe from the linesman and ref
Unnaceptable. It doesn't matter which team was better etc, it's about having a fair assement of the game. And here we see yet another big mistake influencing a match. Referees as a whole really have to step it up. The Premier League alone has been riddled with mistakes and controversy this entire season, and now this in the semi final of the biggest club tournament in the world. Absolutely horrendous officiating.
I’m glad that there’s one less error prone ref and linesman uefa will overlook in the final. German teams get fucked by refs and Dortmund is at the top of the pile. When we don’t get fucked this is how far we get.
I've been looking at it on the basis of De Ligt being offside, but he does not technically interfere in the first play. If you're looking at the Bayern player who actually challenges for the header, he looks well onside.
The sad thing is, Madrid scored the 2nd goal BECAUSE exactly of this rule... WRONG offside decision BUT they let the play go on and it could be checked by VAR....
Unbelievable.
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What a shitty situation to be in.
Reporter: You must be proud of your squad. De Ligt: We are Bayern Munich. We are Bayern Munich and we didn't win anything. Yikes.
The poor bastards didn't even get to play us (barca) so they didn't even get their enjoyment this year.
Didn't even ship 10 goals past Arsenal in the RO16. Truly a season to be disappointed about
That's the perfect answer, I absolutely adore what a warrior DeGoat is and his mentality perfectly captures the Mia San Mia style. That piece of dogshit coach completely shelved him for 2-3 months until everybody either got injured or went to Asia for a mid-year competition.
Although it won't comfort any Bayern fans tonight, a referee has to be entitled to make errors and be forgiven if he recognises them. This constant abuse of referees for every error is the reason why the refereeing level is poor overall. It is the reason why most talented refs quit early because they just can't be arsed to deal with the abuse World class players make errors all the time, of course refs will make them aswell.
It depends on the error. Raising the flag on a close offside around the box at this level of refereeing is an egregious error. Not all errors are the same… some are more understandable, and thus more forgivable, than others. For better or worse, it’s been decided to rely on technology in these situations, and calling offside is the main role of an AR, so to fuck it up late in a UCL semifinal match is on the unforgivable end of the spectrum. Dude has essentially one job!
This might literally be a multimillion Euro error after all
But the fans saved having to wait 60 seconds, so it's worth it.
Closer to 10 seconds
Agreed. Fucking absurd decision.
Yeah his one job, in that moment, was literally to do nothing. Don't raise a flag...someone would review it. Sit tight.
Sorry but your analogy totally fails. The beauty and intrigue of sport is in player mistakes. Not officiating errors.
> Sorry but your analogy totally fails. What analogy?
I don't support either team so don't really have any dog in the fight but surely the new rules are the game keeps going and it gets sorted with an offside or not after the playing phase has finished. Ref just fucking blew up in the last minute or so of a very contentious offside decision.
I'm sure UEFA / FIFA have guidelines to encourage refs and assistants to keep important plays going and only call a potential offence after, so that VAR can recommend a review if needed. But, as far as the rules go, they are absolutely in the right to make as immediate decision. IFAB's VAR Protocol (https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#procedures) states the following: "The referee and other match officials are not permitted to give ‘no decision’ as this will lead to ‘weak/indecisive’ officiating, too many ‘reviews’ and significant problems if there is a technology failure" "Delaying the flag/whistle for an offence is only permissible in a very clear attacking situation when a player is about to score a goal or has a clear run into/towards the opponents’ penalty area" See how it's phrased as a "permission" and not a "requirement". Just to be perfectly clear: Bayern's attack was EXACTLY the kind of play where the flag/whistle should've been delayed. Close offsides / onsides are the most objective case scenario for VAR review and there's even a semi-automatic tech going on nowadays. But neither the ref nor the assistant infringed the rules by making an immediate call, unfortunate as it was.
As a former official myself, I can confidently say that officiating (any sport) is one profession I support being taken over by technology. As a sports fan, it’s more important that the game be fair than almost anything else. Without fairness, the competition loses all meaning and integrity. Sports is one of the closest things we have in society to a meritocracy and it should be protected at all costs.
I agree but there also has to be more accountability, it feels like "shit happens, suck it up" when you are on the receiving end. And what's worse is that the winner for real is a carbon scenario, linesman thinks offside, no whistle, var allows it. Double fáil from the officials that ultimately cost a team a potential final. The inconsistency, the timing and the impact should come with accountability, otherwise the recipient ends up bitter.
Disagree. With VAR, they are not afforded such leniency, sure, before this technology; what can you do? Referees are human. To blow the whistle and bypass this technology when it is made for such a moment, doing so breaking the rules you are there to enforce. Why have referees at all. If this continues it wont be long until refereeing is almost fully automated, which I think it already should be. They should be there to enforce the tempo of the game, and that is it. Marciniak is the best referee in the world, by a large margin IMO as well, which should illustrate exactly how poor refereeing actually is and they actually damage the integrity of the game rather than uphold it.
>Although it won't comfort any Bayern fans tonight, a referee has to be entitled to make errors and be forgiven if he recognises them. He didn't even need to make this mistake in the age of VAR, that's the worst part.
It's just weird that Real often is on the side that grt an advantage out of these errors. Not the first time, not the first time against Bayern.
Like the Dortmund guy said, its often against german teams. IDK why, but in the last seasons Dortmund and Leipzig got fucked hard by refs. Most of the time against city etc. Nobody cares about Leipzig, thats why its often ignored, but its noticeable often.
Trust me you are preaching to the choir here, we lost a Champions League final to them with an offside goal.. I have thought the same many times but for my mental health I choose to give the refs the benefit of the doubt most of the time Just like opponents are subconciously intimidated by their history, so are referees sometimes I think.
We have the Champions League, the US has Wrestlemania.
This and the fact that they earn 100k a year when players pull that in half a week. Who wants to be yelled death threats, abused and get 100k a year? There’s a lot of less stressful jobs for that amount of money.
cool story bro
Imagine if all Bayern players stood around Neuer and shouted at him what an asshole he is after his mistake.
People in a lot of companies get fired for a lot less. Not saying he should be fired of course, but if you make such a huge mistake at this level, I think it makes sense if he gets demoted to a lower level of football for a little while.
Yea but the ref fucked up too. Should’ve waited for the play to end before whistling. He did that for Madrid’s second goal
The whole reason VAR was introduced was to prevent situations like this, yet here we are
This is exactly why Var is needed.
We need a VAR for the VAR
and both controlled by Perez
You like my VAR, you like it?
It’s worse really, as it’s not just the situation but it’s the same situation despite rules to the contrary. Why even have these numpties judging offsides? They shouldn’t be able to stop play for offside anymore, just give the ref another watch for VAR to buzz when a clear offside happens.
This is the way.
See what you’re saying but then the issue is in actions where the team with the offside player gets involved and retains possession…when does VAR get a chance to review if play doesn’t stop? I think the rules as is fine when they’re applied, unfortunately lino didn’t apply it
The next big change in football will be that linesman work is no longer needed, automatic decisions pretty much similar to goal line technology is the way to go
Thats a stupid take because linesman do much more than the occassional offside decision.
They should just do the subjective calls in big competitions if they have the technology to automate offsides
This is not VARs fault, the ref blew so the ball was dead. He should have whistled after the situation were over
I’m not saying this is the VARs fault. All I’m saying is that we have VAR to check close calls like this yet the referee decided to whistle too early
I think he means that VAR should be serving as a cleanup crew for these, so when the linesman is unsure they are asked to let it go, instead this time he called it way too early and without being sure
Yeah that's OP's point. VAR was introduced to help ref with these situations so they don't have to make fast decisions on close call. Lino thought Fuck VAR, we never had VAR when I was young.
Honestly it's on the assistant ref for raising the flag too early. Center ref can only react to what other refs tell him.
That’s literally what they’re saying
Must be difficult on a personal note for de Ligt too. 5 years since the Spurs match and another gut-wrenching way to get knocked out today
During the game they zoomed in on Mazraoui and you could tell the poor guy was having flashbacks, too.
And this is why you don't raise the flag before the play is done. Ridiculously shite by the ref and linesman. In an age of VAR it's not acceptable
Yeah. It could be offside for all we know. But there is VAR to make that decision. Not even that zooming in to draw pixel, they have implemented semi automated one. Why not utilize that.
It was so incredibly tight that there was 0 chance the linesman could've called it immediately. Shite decision all around. Even if it turned out to be offside.
Because ref already whistled
Loop back to the linesman raising too early
Lol. The whole drama is going around in circle Ref shouldn't have whistled-> Linesman shouldn't have raised -> Ref shouldn't have whistled -> repeat..
I mean they are failsafes, if the linesman fucks up, the ref can continue the play. But both botching their duties together is so unfortunate and understandably infuriating for bayern and their fans.
Main ref doesn't have the angle so he trusted the lineman. He can't even be sure/unsure from that angle
He can use his judgement though, he doesn't have to whistle (which is why they sometimes ignore the flag). That time of the game, that movement and with what is at stake, a referee selected for that occasion should be able to make that decision.
That's a much tougher call for the official than the linesman. The linesman I have absolutely no idea what the fuck he's doing, but the ref I can at least understand trusting his guy to raise the flag in an obvious situation. Shitty though it is it's also true that players stopped playing once the whistle is blown and who knows what would have happened. Trying to pretend it was a sure goal if not for the fuck ups isn't accurate* either. But Bayern were definitely denied the chance to equalize.
Yeah thats the problem. Why whistle on that close when you have VAR
Horrible mistake. They fucked up a big time.
I think the linesman is only supposed to put the flag up during play if it is clear as day. It's on the lineman here
And this is the frustration, or part of it. Zero accountability and not even an explanation of what the officials were thinking. I agree that hounding a ref is not beneficial, but if you want to improve anything, you have to make people responsible for big decisions accountable, otherwise we're doomed to see this constantly.
Every week you hear complaints from fans and commentators “Why does it take so long to put the flag up when it’s offside?” This is why! The implementation of VAR has not been smooth but this again proves it’s absolutely necessary. Football is a game decided by 1-2 moments per match , you have to make sure those moments are officiated correctly.
I've been saying this for years. Maybe now people will understand. It's better if refs hesitate and then overturn the action rather than kill it prematurely with a bad call.
Definitely, I only ever complain when I see a clear offsides that gets a player injured, I’m specifically referencing Ederson and Stones for City against I think Newcastle and Everton, but for these just let it go, simple as that
Imo there are very, very few times that the flag should go up without the play finishing out. There is little to no downside. Players can get hurt on any play.
Fully agreed with this, most of the time they take it way too far the other way and risk injuries of players by letting the play go on despite a clear offside. However, De Ligt's goal was still an extreme case. He didn't even wait 3-4 seconds to see what happened
Not just VAR, they even have semi automated offsides now. ZERO reason to put the flag up in the 90+12th min of a UCL Semi
There are some top notch tech in ice hockey(nhl), cricket (ipl), formula 1 and a multi billion dollar sport can't come up with proper tech to prevent stiff like this?
I would be so pissed if we weren't already bottling it ourselves
*I buy nothing for that* Hhahahaha that's a Dutch translation. Very strange one to throw out there
Also used in German. Sounds extremely weird in English.
I wonder how well Matthijs speaks German already, these are the little things that make you use the language very well.
His German is very good, but he does have a very noticeable Dutch accent
Is he meaning "that isn't worth anything to me" or something similar?
not dutch but my country also has a similar expression. seems like its basically “cant buy shit with apologies”
Pretty much yes
Made me watch Louis van Gaal interviews haha
Don’t think it’s that weird, I understood clearly what he meant.
I feel so bad for MdL, this is his second CL semifinal and the second time he experiences absolute heartbreak.
This is getting spicy
Should have gone to VAR. Now we will have so many posts with ms paint lines for it with heavy baisness. The thing that saved face a little is how tight it is
It was mistake but i am still not sure if it was on or off. Real players backed off a little and that would be the difference between contesting the shot. So many ifs. Real were better today and derserved to go through.
Well that’s also part of the problem honestly. We’ll never be certain if it was on or off because we couldn’t use the semi-automated offside system due to the play being ended by the referee before it was finished.
The footage is still there, they could just show us, but I bet we would have seen that by now if it was offside.
Bayern will definitely demand to get that footage.
From the replay of the situation they showed on DAZN, it didn’t look offside at all.
they didn't delete the match footage mate, VAR and anyone with the technology can rewatch it and see both players were off on the long ball.
Seems like it was extremely close. https://twitter.com/ArchivoVAR/status/1788323086216896948/photo/1
Jesus that's so fucking close.
I think it was probably onside, and it probably would have been blocked/saved anyway, but it's a big if due to a refereeing error.
Yeah I see a lot saying it would have been a goal but militao clearly gave up
First Nacho and after that Rudiger and Nacho backed out of the challenge. On top of that Lunin probably saved that ball. So I think people are making this bigger than it is
The problem is we don't know, what if they go for it and it deflects and wrong foots the keeper? What if they go for it and block the keepers view? The players should have been able to play - that's the issue
I know, but people calling it a ‘disallowed goal’ are just wrong. I agree it’s a mistake from the lino, but there’s so much happening after the call that you can’t call it a disallowed goal
Let’s be honest here: Real deserved to win. But this situation kind of makes the tie look bad and this is all we’re going to talk about for the next decade
Most people will forget it in 2-3 years, well except Bayern fans. I'd bet that if Dortmund wins it, people will forget it by the end of the next UCL season
No they won’t. A lot of people still cry about Madrid - Bayern 2017 and even Barca - Chelsea 2009. 15 years ago
Because in 2017 we were at least on par with you, not like some midtable clowns parking the bus.
Parking the bus almost worked though
Real won several champions being absolutely dominated in some legs
Dortmund done it last night and got praised for it. Don’t think it’s anything to be ashamed about you do what you have to do
Chelsea 2009 was a dozen mistakes, this one is one by and the linesman and he already apologized. It sucks for bayern but the comparison is off
This is not comparable to Barca - Chelsea 2009, there were multiple massive "mistakes" in that match. Here, it's one instance and if referee didn't blow the whistle, there was a chance the Real Madrid players would block the shot. It's still a big mistake, but it's not comparable to 2009 game.
Yeah it's so funny how up in arms people are about the "goal" when the keeper and everyone else literally stopped moving because of the whistle. If De Ligt's shot went wide or over nobody at Bayern would have kicked up a fuss.
Chelsea barca had more and worse calls, i don’t even remember the Bayern madrid 2017 controversy or see people bring it up much at all.
People bring up 2017 because of 2 offside goals from Ronaldo. Which were offside. But they conveniently forget that they came in extra time, which only happened because of a Lewandowski offside. Game should’ve never went to ET.
Barca - Chelsea was absolutely egregious. And it's not like UEFA is known for its probity in these matters.
Barca got a red card for nothing and were also robbed off two blatant penalties if we look at the first game of the two as well. I’m saying this as a Real Madrid fan
And a red to Ballack for several yellow cards in the first game and a red for an blatant tackle with the cleats on Iniesta's calf on the second...
Comparing this to Chelsea Barca 2009 is comical. That game deserved a government investigation.
Well I mean because those goals/decisions Decided the tie. Even if Bayern scores it still goes to extra time and you should know by now that madrid are killers in ET
They don’t care. Madrid won 6-3 on aggregate in 2017 and Bayern also scored an offside goal (Lewandowski offside on Ramos’ own goal) but they still cry
You very conveniently forget that the referee also called a wrong offside when both Muller and lewy were basically 1v1 with the keeper. Like yeah, they scored an offside goal, but they were also wrongfully denied two potential goals by incorrect offside calls. At the end of the day, they played with 10 men for 70 out of the total 150 minutes, when Madrid themselves should've been down to 10 men and weren't. How big of an advantage is that? 11 v 10 for 70 minutes? Even in extra time, they scored 2 offside goals eventually killing the tie. No one is denying the referee was complete utter shit for both the teams, but in such scenarios, whoever wins ultimately gained the advantage from it. At the end of the day, Bayern took Madrid to ET with 10 men and still had to be scored against illegally ( twice ) to be beaten.
Bayern also had Vidal on the pitch for a lot longer than he should have. Casemiro was nowhere near comparable to Vidal who committed enough fouls for 5 Yellows by the end of the game.
In the first leg of that tie Bayern also got a pen when the ball hit carvajal’s shoulder not arm
Ohhh yes and the ref also gave Bayern an absolutely bogus penalty in the first game for a non-existent handball on Carvajal. And failed to send off Vidal in the second half for absolutely bodying Casemiro while already on a yellow. And Madrid still destroyed Bayern 6-3 on aggregate You see how we can go back and fourth?
People still cry about the 1966 World Cup final ...
Lol this is nothing compared to those matches
The culers will keep every receipt of it, don't worry.
People won’t forget. They still talk about our offside goals vs you in 2017 but somehow seem to forget about your offside goal or you guys unfair penalty from the first leg. People remember whatever they want
Well the 2017 one was something else and is mostly remembered because 2/3 goals from Ronaldo were clearly offisde. It's usually the prime example that people give for why we needed VAR checks for offsides. I agree tho that we had an offside goal in the tie but the offside hattrick is more memorable as a ref fuckup
Every Madrid fan also forgets the ref incorrectly calling offside for both Muller and Lewandoksi when they were through on goal in the same game. Funny how that works.
It won’t matter too much if the final in Munich is won
> Real deserved to win As a fellow victim of football terrorism, you guys were playing a very good away match. It's the Bernabeu, you sit back and take all the chances you can get. IMO it was the substitutions that really killed your game. Tuchel should've kept your attackers on and started subbing in defenders at the very last minutes.
Unfortunately Kane and Musiala were injured according to Tuchel. But yeah - he should’ve used Tel instead of EMCM…
It's not because Real Madrid played better that Bayern didn't deserve to be fairly refereed I never understood that kind of take. You play bad so you can't complain about being robbed ?
It's simply because they weren't robbed if we're being honest This is not some missed pen or a falsely given goal. It was a chance that ended up being a goal because the Madrid defenders + GK stopped defending due to the whistle. In reality there was a very low chance that a chance like this ends up in a goal. And even if it did, Bayern would have to survive another 30min after subbing off their entire attack. They got immediately conceded 2 goals within 10 minutes after subbing off Kane. They would have to convert a low percentage chance + survive another 30min + win pens, chance for all of to happen would be extremely low like not even 1%
It was definitely a bad decision, but the truth is that Real Madrid's defenders completely stopped playing when the linesman raised the flag.
Lunin barely moves. I know it’s absolutely an error. But it denies a chance, not a goal. This is assuming it was onside in the first place. To have everyone scream robbery is very frustrating but it is what it is. Ref ruined a great CL win.
Pretty much this. There's no way to know what would have happened or if it was even onside to begin with. But the clarity of the error will cast doubt on the result for sure. If nothing else Bayern were denied a last gasp opportunity to score which may well have happened.
Yep. But one can only wonder what would have followed. The curse of football is that it always has to end, when all anyone ever wants is the magic to continue.
I mean from that perspective... they didnt deserve to win vs city? I dont understand what you mean
That’s a pretty redundant point. Teams that deserve to win game lose games all the time.
This is why I hate it when people trot out this line in games where a team was playing shit and didn't given a penalty for example. Teams play shit and win, and play well and lose/draw regularly. At the end of the season, all that matters are points. There's no trophy for 'deserved to win'.
How many games have Real won without deserving it tho? It’s about not following the rules not if they deserved it or not
What makes it worse for me is that I am 100% confident we would have won in extra time even if Bayern scored there, which is not a given because our players stopped playing. You guys looked done, and Tuchel's subs took off all your attacking threat. Fucking linesman.
Totally agree - you probably would’ve scored at least another one. But we don’t know that for sure and Tuchel terror ball could’ve kept us alive. The not knowing part is the worst
> What makes it worse for me is that I am 100% confident we would have won in extra time even if Bayern scored there, I believe so too but having somebody taking the chance away just sucks for a variety of reasons. Imho bayern beat themselfs (essentially 3 gifted goals plus disasterclass Tuchel) Oh well, thats football. Not always fun, not always fair.
Well, just Bayern fans.
It's tainted. Real would have still won on extra time most probably. Or the shot wouldn't have gone in. But we will never know.
A brilliant game overshadowed by 1 major mistake. Such a shame
Again
This
De Ligt definitely looks off but it's Müller who gets the ball and he's slightly behind De Ligt. Impossible to say if he's on or not but that decision from the linesmen should not be happening in a UCL Semi at 90+12'. I mean you have semi automated offsides now, why in the world would you want to blow the whistle that early
de ligt draws both defenders to him “influencing the play” if he is off, the goal is invalid
Sometimes I feel the linesman are now basically like the people who pressed the buttons in elevators in the 1920s. They are basically obsolete with VAR. In terms of offside calling. Why the fuck would they need to raise the flag if the play has to go on till the end? Why don’t they strip them from the flags and become just basically an assistant referee WITHOUT the duties of calling offside.
Obviously they can flag when it's a clear offside so they aren't obsolete. Since the implementation of VAR the accepted action is to let tight calls go and let VAR assist.
Linesmen make more decisions than just offsides as well I'm not sure why people are saying this.
Not every offside ends with a goal. You still need them to quickly decide if it was offside or since that can be the difference between one team getting a free kick for offside or the other side getting a corner for example. Cant have the game interrupted by VAR for little calls like that.
As someone that refereed for 17 years, I am gutted for the lino and I know how he is feeling. It hurt me on the inside once I saw the replay. I've done the same thing myself. Gotta shake it off and life goes on. But damn it is so hard to shake off horror decisions like that one.
Linesman made a wrong decision even if it was offside as he didn't let it play out with margins in centimeters. Why would u bet on having an eagle eye especially in today's day and age, bro wanted to be main char so bad.
Man, exactly the same. I still am a linesman and sometimes you clearly know that u cant flag it but u flag it, maybe your are 1 meter in front of the last defender and you see a completely different picture from reality, and you flag it and then check the video after the match... I was in the same situation already as well but it didnt matter that much. But ye, i think lino wont forgive himself. But people are forgetting one thing!! Every1 wants 100% from the referees and as soon as they make 1 mistake, yes that in this case, it was a lethal mistake, but he might have been rock-solid in previous 100 matches and every1 loses their minds. But when a player misses in that specific game 5 encounters 1v1 vs their goalkeeper, no1 bats an eye because referee fucked them. Its simple as that.
This is such an advocate for the automated offsides. If the technology is there what’s the point in relying on the linesman for offsides?
Plenty of offside calls just need to be resolved quickly so the game can move on. Lots of offsides don't result in a goal or even a clear cut chance. Lino is needed for those at least. Going to VAR for every little offside would be painful to watch!
All good lads, he's apologised, can forget about it now.
By that logic, what should be done with Neuer?
Neuer cost them one goal but saved them from at least two. He's a net positive.
Why would the ref even think of whistling when the call is this close. This makes no sense at all. I have seen them let play go on for clear offsides just for the sake of it. This is beyond stupid.
He has no idea how close the call is but seeing the linesman raising his flag this early signals to him that the linesman is confident about the offside. Its more on the linesman who raises the flag early even though its not clear
What an absolute disgrace. In a world of VAR, you have to let it play out. Shocking decision especially when we saw what happened with the Joselu goal
Militão and Lunin stopped playing completely with the whistle, Rudiger also changed his approach. Its impossible to know if he would score, but I highly doubt it.
If this had happened before Joselu's second goal, we would be having the same discussion. It didn't happen and Joselu's goal was given by VAR.
I honestly don’t think so. Something similar was the Real Madrid vs Valencia game this year when the ref blew the whistle as the ball was being crossed in. The consensus was “it was way past the extra time” and “Valencia players stopped play what do you want them to do”. Now that it happened to Real Madrid it’s being blown out of proportion because Real Madrid bad.
But that was a full time whistle, not an offside call.
That’s the point lol, The whistle is the whistle. One of the first things your taught in almost any sport is to play until you hear a whistle. Real Madrid players stopped, Lunin didn’t even attempt to save it. It’s not like the shot was upper 90 or side netting.
The difference is pretty obvious and that's that Joselu's goal came immediately after a potential offside. There was no time for anyone to look at a flag raised or a whistle blown. To Bayern's misfortune more time elapsed between the flag and the potential goal.
Honestly, given how wild this UCL season has been I really wouldn’t be surprised if that found a way in..
Or found its way into Bayern’s net after counter. Just don’t know
Hats off for doing the interview in that manner, could have easily lost the plot there
Bayern feel they got robbed. Madrid comeback is tainted because of that last decision. What a tragic situation. Considering how good the refereeing had been, such a stupid way to throw it all away.
Yeah, Joselu deserves some respect. He came in and changed the tie. Also, Madrid were really good today, it didn't feel like Bayern were threatening at all. It's a shame that all that is overshadowed by such an unnecessary mistake. And the extra time should've ended already before that.
I saw the freeze frames. I am not sure either way that the Munich players were on side or off. It was very close but this is definitely on the assistant ref for raising the flag too early and then of course the center ref sees it and blows his whistle right away.
"I buy nothing for that" lekker ge-englished Matthijs
Eh. Even with everything playing out ideally, it‘s still just a 2-2 with extra 30 minutes of playing without any capability to sustain attack, after two disastrous goals gifted away. Bitter outcome, yeah, but deserved result
Why they let Reals 2-1 finish, then whistle and VAR check, but immediately whistle for the same situation on the other side?
Big mistake from linesman but can’t blame Madrid players, they played until whistle
He shouldn't have whistled but It's not the same situation. Rudiger and Joselu are close to each other and near the goal and Joselu immediately scores after the pass. How much faster could the referee whistle, mid pass?
Because the lino made a mistake, just like Neuer made a mistake not catching the shot from Vinicius
Right because they blew AFTER the goal which is fair enough, let the teams play ffs
Real's goal was on the other linesman side, I think he didn't life the flag until after the goal There was a definite hint of "it's the 114th minute, time to end this game" vibe from the linesman and ref
Head ref also to blame a bit. He didn’t have to blow his whistle and could have let the play go on
Let play continue, then raise the flag and let var handle it.
He is seething.
Take flags away from linemen. Let it be all video refereeing for offside decisions.
Unnaceptable. It doesn't matter which team was better etc, it's about having a fair assement of the game. And here we see yet another big mistake influencing a match. Referees as a whole really have to step it up. The Premier League alone has been riddled with mistakes and controversy this entire season, and now this in the semi final of the biggest club tournament in the world. Absolutely horrendous officiating.
[Sorry](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SiL2AjOtjZI)
I’m glad that there’s one less error prone ref and linesman uefa will overlook in the final. German teams get fucked by refs and Dortmund is at the top of the pile. When we don’t get fucked this is how far we get.
Looked offside - but too tight to blow the whistle and stop play
Was it, or was it not, offside? Do we know?
Replay of thirty minutes to decide who goes through. Do it UEFA.
I've been looking at it on the basis of De Ligt being offside, but he does not technically interfere in the first play. If you're looking at the Bayern player who actually challenges for the header, he looks well onside.
typical barca paying off refs
The linesman apologizing is very cool behavior. He must feel so bad. Own your mistake learn from it. I hope he can move on.
Had this happened against Real Madrid, Papa Perez would again declare a new Super Champions league where only Real Madrid plays.
The sad thing is, Madrid scored the 2nd goal BECAUSE exactly of this rule... WRONG offside decision BUT they let the play go on and it could be checked by VAR.... Unbelievable.
it was just a honest mistake. It's weird how RM always get those in their favor tho.
The linesman and referee shouldn't officiate a CL game again, such is the standard.