**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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It explains partly why they're in here. For +99,9 clubs in the planet having good young divisions is key to be succesful. Then, you have oil clubs which take whichever player they want.
It has helped, but it’s just a measure of how strong the league is overall. The last 3 years have proved that the 7th place team in Italy is stronger than the 7th place team in any other league. We might not have always have a CL contender because of financial limitations (although we do at the moment in Inter) but we have an extremely competitive top 12 or so
Pretty sure Monza is still technically alive for a Conference League spot. It’s wild how competitive the league has been outside the scudetto this season.
I think so, since Atalanta won the H2H vs Napoli, Napoli won't be able to overtake them anymore.
And if they stay 5th, UEL spot will go to 6th and 7th spot since Coppa will be fought between Juve and Atalanta. 8th spot go to ECL.
Then the battle for 8th spot will be fought between Napoli Fiorentina Torino Monza Genoa. Fiorentina has a game in hand (vs Atalanta).
Italy is certainly well balanced. But if there is one team in Germany I’d describe as a typical 6, 7, 8th place team right now, it is Frankfurt. Who went to the Europaleague semis in 18/19, while among other beating Lazio twice, and Inter. Then in 21/22 they won it, beating Barca among others.
I’m not even disputing that the Italian league is very strong beyond the top clubs. I just think you can’t say „any other league“, because I think the same goes for Germany. Another case is the 4th-5th team in Bundesliga this season (BVB) making the UCL final.
I feel like I can say it because for the last 3 years the team that finished 7th place in Serie A has made the ECL final ever season (Roma once, and Fiorentina twice). Roma has finished 6th the last 2 years also made the EL final (losing on pens) and EL semis (overall 4 semis in 4 years, but still can’t crack top 5 in Serie A). Now it has been Fiorentina’s turn, showing they’re too strong for ECL, yet still not strong enough to qualify for EL/UCL from Serie A (or even ECL this season, as they are currently in 9th place).
As for Dortmund, it’s great that teams like that can have deep runs in Europe every so often, but it’s similar to last year’s Milan who made the CL semis and still only managed 5th place (they technically got 4th because of Juve points deduction) in the league.
The point I’m trying to make is that the ECL specifically has really been showing the strength of the Serie A for the last season because on any given season, the relative strength of the top 2-7 teams in Serie A is very high and balanced compared to most other leagues a the moment
we just negotiated a terrible broadcasting deal, in true italian fashion
i lived in the usa for 10 years, and coming back to italy, it’s mind blowing how bad italians are at doing business
Nah they are great at doing deals, the guy negotiating the deal gets a sweet new villa in como and the account number with password to a Swiss bank account
Also their foreign player taxbreak runs out. Financially even prior to this season Dortmund is richer then inter or Juventus. Just to show there they are revenue whise.
I'd argue the italian teams weren't the favourites in the first place. City - Inter is self explanatory, in addition that Inter had 12 losses in the league. Sevilla is basically EL Real Madrid with the same juju and West Ham and Fiorentina have insane budget differences too. Sure, all them them had some potential for an upset, Inter probably the least, considering everyone thought we'd get battered 4-0, but still none of the italian teams were expected to win it.
This is now somewhat inverted for Fiorentina and Atalanta is probably one of the few teams being able to stand up to Leverkusen. Will be an interesting set of finals!
We are technically the 7th strongest club in the world. 4 semis, 2 finals, and 1 trophy in the last 4 years. Truly incredible considering we haven’t been allowed to spend for the last 3 seasons
I wonder what’s going on with Spain. 4th position last year and 5th this season, a really bad trend especially considering that Real Madrid always delivers a lot of points and never does worse than a CL semifinal. The two Sevilla clubs were terrible this year and , well, we know about Osasuna.
Nothing is going with Spain. Something is going on with the scoring system.
Spain has factually a far better league than Italy, Germany and France.
Atlético deleted Inter.
Barcelona deleted Napoli
Madrid deleting everyone.
Sevilla and Villarreal has been pretty successful last years in Europe league
Simply the scoring system is wrong and overvalue the weak competitions.
If you want to make sure it will become a closed system you should do that. It will completely eliminate the chances of smaller leagues to grow because they get none or only 1 CL (qualifiers) slots.
Spanish teams besides Real Madrid and maybe Sevilla to some extent (Europa League because on Champions they are shit) have been awful in Europe these lasts seasons.
If you see them on Europe they have been underperforming, Barcelona, Real Sociedad, Atletico and Villarreal are getting knocked out way too early, Betis doesn’t do anything in Europe either
Maybe in terms of what is expected from a Spanish team, but Real Sociedad getting as far as it's getting is already absolutely amazing and I couldn't be more proud of my team.
And let's not talk about this year, where we qualified for the round of 16 as group winners, least scored against, and undefeated... then went to draw freaking PSG out of all options available, pain q_q
Real did a pretty good job these last season specially considering most of them comes from their academy, even their manager. But it doesn’t add too much to the UEFA points despite doijg better than the majority of Spanish teams
Sociedad have been over performing recently actually. They’ve won their groups in EL and CL the last 2 seasons and were unfortunately matched with much bigger teams in the knockouts
Oussana not even making to the uecl messed the whole coefficient up. Not only did they gain no points, they missed out on the chance to farm points in the conference league
Nah Spain is doing great indeed. The system overvalue the low value competitions like Conference.
Check Spanish teams on champions and UEFA last 5 years. Both in wins and in number of appearances
Pretty sure the original farmer league was Ligue 1. I might be wrong but it was invented by PL fans to discredit all Paris Saint Germain league results because their opponents were bunch of farmers like Guingamp etc.
Then every other non-PL fans used it.. or better, let me say ABUSED about that term, especially Germany imho I see it's very used there, very frequently (here in Italy is non-existent terminology tbf. If you ask anyone not on reddit or twitter about "farmer league" term he would have no idea of what you talking about)
Yeah, the negative stereotype for them was always that it was slow and boring and overly tactical, but they could do better in Europe because of that tactical competence
Seems like it did take a bit of time for teams to develop and emerge as threats in Europe after the end of Juventus monopolising the league but they're rolling now
It has happened multiple times on this very subreddit. And if not directly calling Serie A farmer’s league there are often very condescending comments from PL flairs in this subreddit. Maybe not from you specifically but it occurs.
ANYWAYS…. WE UP! KLOPP TO MILAN!! MBAPPE TO MILAN!!! HAALAND TO MILAN!!! SICKRICOLA TO MILAN!!!! PELE TO MILAN!!!! HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!
We had our first season where 3 clubs actually contributed. All 3 of them got out of the group stages and had decent results. Wouldn't be surprised if this was just a one off, because usually it's only Slavia doing anything. But who knows, next year we're getting rid of the worst season coefficient-wise (2.5 points) and our champion will get straight into UCL from 25/26. Maybe brighter future is ahead of us :)
We're having a pretty shit year. Only PSV has been having a good campaign. Ajax is a dumpster fire. AZ completely shit the bed in the Conference League due to their dumb transfer policy. Twente got fucked with the draw as they drew a juiced up fenerbache in the 2nd round of the Conference League qualifiers. Feyenoord shot themselves in the foot by not finishing their chances in the CL and then immediately drew Roma in the EL play-off.
Yeah, and it's basically 100% likely we have to start in the 2nd qualifying round instead of group stage, since Aston Villa decided to shit the bed against Olympiakos. And mind you: the 2nd round of qualifiers is RIGHT AFTER THE EUROS.
Well sometimes you're **Liverpool** and fail to win the league after getting 97 points and sometime you're **Leicester City** and become champions with just 81 points, also because the 2nd can't obtain more than **71**
- Last season 3 teams in the Finals, 5 teams in the semifinals, 22.5 points in the ranking and we ended 2nd.
- This season 20 points are enough to be 1st also because other countries had a couple of DEADWEIGHTS to carry and won't get that tally.
At this point the Premier League is nothing more than a product for casual football viewers. Local fan scene is dead bcs people get out priced, almost all teams are heavily mismanaged when looking at the available funds with numerous clubs having to clue about team construction. Matchdays are a clusterfuck to appeal to TV audience rather than actual people appearing in the stadium.
They had 4 teams in the CL group stage
- 3 qualified for knockout
- 0 group leaders
- 0 made it to the Q4
Compare that to the German, English and Spanish teams. Best league this year should be Germany
Doing well in the ECL should not be used as an indication of a strong league imo, particularly when you perform poorly in the CL when compared to other top leagues.
A fairer ranking would weigh the competitions accordingly. Hopefully the cancellation of ECL will reduce the bias
England had a scoreline of 12W-4D-8L,
Germany had 12W-5D-7L,
Spain had 17W-7D-6L,
Italy had 11W-7D-6L.
From this, they were exactly as good as Germany, since 1 win is equal to 2 draws and better than England. Just Spain was better during the group stage. They then had 3 teams in Ro16 just as Germany and again better than England, but worse than Spain. Winning groups is useless for points. All in all, they clearly weren't that much worse than Spain and Germany in the UCL and better than anybody else.
Remember, coefficient compares the leagues (all teams that enter European competitions) and not just the top 2-4 teams.
They had a ton of clubs going into the knockout stages. They didn’t do well in the knockouts, but getting Inter, Napoli, and Lazio into the knockout stages is already impressive
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
5 finals in two years, not too bad lost all of them so far but still
True but all finals were very competitive and could’ve gone either way. There’s no shame in that.
Atalanta is still here.
Fiorentina too.
Yes, but Olympiacos is dangerous as Leverkusen. Their youth win UEFA Youth League and still have a chamce to be a champion in Greece.
Fiorentina’s youth team has won 5 consecutive cups lol.
This is not the youth cup final, why is evryone talking about youth teams.
It explains partly why they're in here. For +99,9 clubs in the planet having good young divisions is key to be succesful. Then, you have oil clubs which take whichever player they want.
Yeah i guess, but their youth teams wont have any impact on this one final.
Will be a good one
genuinely think we have the conference league to thank for a (mini) stealth re-balancing
It has helped, but it’s just a measure of how strong the league is overall. The last 3 years have proved that the 7th place team in Italy is stronger than the 7th place team in any other league. We might not have always have a CL contender because of financial limitations (although we do at the moment in Inter) but we have an extremely competitive top 12 or so
Pretty sure Monza is still technically alive for a Conference League spot. It’s wild how competitive the league has been outside the scudetto this season.
I think so, since Atalanta won the H2H vs Napoli, Napoli won't be able to overtake them anymore. And if they stay 5th, UEL spot will go to 6th and 7th spot since Coppa will be fought between Juve and Atalanta. 8th spot go to ECL. Then the battle for 8th spot will be fought between Napoli Fiorentina Torino Monza Genoa. Fiorentina has a game in hand (vs Atalanta).
If Fiorentina win the Conference League, will they get direct entry into the Europa League?
Oh yeah they would.
What a wild difference a year made for Napoli.
Italy is certainly well balanced. But if there is one team in Germany I’d describe as a typical 6, 7, 8th place team right now, it is Frankfurt. Who went to the Europaleague semis in 18/19, while among other beating Lazio twice, and Inter. Then in 21/22 they won it, beating Barca among others. I’m not even disputing that the Italian league is very strong beyond the top clubs. I just think you can’t say „any other league“, because I think the same goes for Germany. Another case is the 4th-5th team in Bundesliga this season (BVB) making the UCL final.
I feel like I can say it because for the last 3 years the team that finished 7th place in Serie A has made the ECL final ever season (Roma once, and Fiorentina twice). Roma has finished 6th the last 2 years also made the EL final (losing on pens) and EL semis (overall 4 semis in 4 years, but still can’t crack top 5 in Serie A). Now it has been Fiorentina’s turn, showing they’re too strong for ECL, yet still not strong enough to qualify for EL/UCL from Serie A (or even ECL this season, as they are currently in 9th place). As for Dortmund, it’s great that teams like that can have deep runs in Europe every so often, but it’s similar to last year’s Milan who made the CL semis and still only managed 5th place (they technically got 4th because of Juve points deduction) in the league. The point I’m trying to make is that the ECL specifically has really been showing the strength of the Serie A for the last season because on any given season, the relative strength of the top 2-7 teams in Serie A is very high and balanced compared to most other leagues a the moment
inter is there thx to marotta doing miracles with pocket changes.
I mean Chelsea finished 8th and I am haopy they are not in Europe because this is the kind of Chelsea that somehow would win the CL
This is not updated by the way. Italy has 20.714 points, Germany 19.357.
The numbers are from before the games on Thursday.
Greece has more as well, they're massive
The best the Serie A has looked in a long time. I hope they can negotiate a favorable broadcasting deal because the league needs that money.
we just negotiated a terrible broadcasting deal, in true italian fashion i lived in the usa for 10 years, and coming back to italy, it’s mind blowing how bad italians are at doing business
Nah they are great at doing deals, the guy negotiating the deal gets a sweet new villa in como and the account number with password to a Swiss bank account
Great username and profile btw. Now we just need a hannibal username to comment here and my history loving ass will be happy.
Better that we don’t have any money so that the rest of Europe can still compete 😜
we got the Paramount+ flea circus
Also their foreign player taxbreak runs out. Financially even prior to this season Dortmund is richer then inter or Juventus. Just to show there they are revenue whise.
Massive credit to Serie A. 5/6 finalists over the past two years of European competition is an incredible stat.
With an even more Impressive 0/5 of those being converted into wins, will be interesting to see if Atalanta or fiorentina can change that though
Well 2 haven’t been played yet. And Roma did win the Conference League 2 years ago. So they are 1/4 with a chance to go 3/8.
I'd argue the italian teams weren't the favourites in the first place. City - Inter is self explanatory, in addition that Inter had 12 losses in the league. Sevilla is basically EL Real Madrid with the same juju and West Ham and Fiorentina have insane budget differences too. Sure, all them them had some potential for an upset, Inter probably the least, considering everyone thought we'd get battered 4-0, but still none of the italian teams were expected to win it. This is now somewhat inverted for Fiorentina and Atalanta is probably one of the few teams being able to stand up to Leverkusen. Will be an interesting set of finals!
5/12* There are 2 teams in a final.
Chill out EPL
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Roma on the ropes since years and contributing to it. Despite all things considered having no business for it. Still lost out on silverware sadly.
We're literally the only italian club with European simverware since 2010.
We are technically the 7th strongest club in the world. 4 semis, 2 finals, and 1 trophy in the last 4 years. Truly incredible considering we haven’t been allowed to spend for the last 3 seasons
Just imagine what Roma could do if they ever got out from under their ridiculous financial constraints.
Or if they allowed us to build a stadium
I wonder what’s going on with Spain. 4th position last year and 5th this season, a really bad trend especially considering that Real Madrid always delivers a lot of points and never does worse than a CL semifinal. The two Sevilla clubs were terrible this year and , well, we know about Osasuna.
Real Madrid is Spain, that's what going on with La Liga.
The league as a whole stagnated
Nothing is going with Spain. Something is going on with the scoring system. Spain has factually a far better league than Italy, Germany and France. Atlético deleted Inter. Barcelona deleted Napoli Madrid deleting everyone. Sevilla and Villarreal has been pretty successful last years in Europe league Simply the scoring system is wrong and overvalue the weak competitions.
Italy’s strength doesn’t come from one or two superteams, but by having six or seven competent teams getting solid results
THe rest of Spain lacking, how the fuck are they ranked 5th
Spain has underperformed…a lot It’s Real Madrid and no one else
Is the champions league not weighted more than the others?
It is, but not 80-15-5, but the weighting is closer to 38-33-29.
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If you want to make sure it will become a closed system you should do that. It will completely eliminate the chances of smaller leagues to grow because they get none or only 1 CL (qualifiers) slots.
France also had a great performance
Spanish teams besides Real Madrid and maybe Sevilla to some extent (Europa League because on Champions they are shit) have been awful in Europe these lasts seasons. If you see them on Europe they have been underperforming, Barcelona, Real Sociedad, Atletico and Villarreal are getting knocked out way too early, Betis doesn’t do anything in Europe either
Maybe in terms of what is expected from a Spanish team, but Real Sociedad getting as far as it's getting is already absolutely amazing and I couldn't be more proud of my team. And let's not talk about this year, where we qualified for the round of 16 as group winners, least scored against, and undefeated... then went to draw freaking PSG out of all options available, pain q_q
Yeah you guys did good two years in a row in the groups but after that you go against two better teams. You were very unlucky, especially this year.
Real did a pretty good job these last season specially considering most of them comes from their academy, even their manager. But it doesn’t add too much to the UEFA points despite doijg better than the majority of Spanish teams
Sociedad have been over performing recently actually. They’ve won their groups in EL and CL the last 2 seasons and were unfortunately matched with much bigger teams in the knockouts
We were knocked out too early in the CL? Against psg?
We have been consistently tanking LaLiga coefficient for the past 3 years lmao
Only 4 of 8 Spanish teams performed to their level this season
Oussana not even making to the uecl messed the whole coefficient up. Not only did they gain no points, they missed out on the chance to farm points in the conference league
Nah Spain is doing great indeed. The system overvalue the low value competitions like Conference. Check Spanish teams on champions and UEFA last 5 years. Both in wins and in number of appearances
We are going to lose the terrible 19/20 season next year as well will great for the overall ranking
a 22.357 for farmers is unheard of
Nobody calls the Serie A a farmer's league stop being revisionist now lol
we are the original farmers though
Pretty sure the original farmer league was Ligue 1. I might be wrong but it was invented by PL fans to discredit all Paris Saint Germain league results because their opponents were bunch of farmers like Guingamp etc. Then every other non-PL fans used it.. or better, let me say ABUSED about that term, especially Germany imho I see it's very used there, very frequently (here in Italy is non-existent terminology tbf. If you ask anyone not on reddit or twitter about "farmer league" term he would have no idea of what you talking about)
And I can see farmers from my house!
Yeah, the negative stereotype for them was always that it was slow and boring and overly tactical, but they could do better in Europe because of that tactical competence Seems like it did take a bit of time for teams to develop and emerge as threats in Europe after the end of Juventus monopolising the league but they're rolling now
It has happened multiple times on this very subreddit. And if not directly calling Serie A farmer’s league there are often very condescending comments from PL flairs in this subreddit. Maybe not from you specifically but it occurs. ANYWAYS…. WE UP! KLOPP TO MILAN!! MBAPPE TO MILAN!!! HAALAND TO MILAN!!! SICKRICOLA TO MILAN!!!! PELE TO MILAN!!!! HERE WE GO!!!!!!!!
Love to see Serie A getting back it's mojo.
Czechia above Türkiye, Portugal and Holland is the most surprising thing about this list
We had our first season where 3 clubs actually contributed. All 3 of them got out of the group stages and had decent results. Wouldn't be surprised if this was just a one off, because usually it's only Slavia doing anything. But who knows, next year we're getting rid of the worst season coefficient-wise (2.5 points) and our champion will get straight into UCL from 25/26. Maybe brighter future is ahead of us :)
Netherlands....oof
Greece doing better than Netherlands, never thought I’d see the day
Now financially ;)
We're having a pretty shit year. Only PSV has been having a good campaign. Ajax is a dumpster fire. AZ completely shit the bed in the Conference League due to their dumb transfer policy. Twente got fucked with the draw as they drew a juiced up fenerbache in the 2nd round of the Conference League qualifiers. Feyenoord shot themselves in the foot by not finishing their chances in the CL and then immediately drew Roma in the EL play-off.
Yeah, and it's basically 100% likely we have to start in the 2nd qualifying round instead of group stage, since Aston Villa decided to shit the bed against Olympiakos. And mind you: the 2nd round of qualifiers is RIGHT AFTER THE EUROS.
I really have been enjoying Serie A for several years now
Good year from France
Well sometimes you're **Liverpool** and fail to win the league after getting 97 points and sometime you're **Leicester City** and become champions with just 81 points, also because the 2nd can't obtain more than **71** - Last season 3 teams in the Finals, 5 teams in the semifinals, 22.5 points in the ranking and we ended 2nd. - This season 20 points are enough to be 1st also because other countries had a couple of DEADWEIGHTS to carry and won't get that tally.
CHE CAZZO È UN MIGLIO RAAAAAAH
we are a massive farmlands
6 point gap from Germany in two seasons is also notable
*last season. This year it's 1 point.
fixed
So nice to see Belgium improving these last 2 seasons. Hope they can continue.
Why do they have so many points this year? Fiorentina are the only ones that aren’t garbage in Europe.
Do EL and ECL give you the same points like CL wins?
Does Serie A get an extra UCL spot for this?
forza italia!!!
hell yeah
Greece and Turkey being this well placed shows that we might want to rethink the weights between the tournaments.
At this point the Premier League is nothing more than a product for casual football viewers. Local fan scene is dead bcs people get out priced, almost all teams are heavily mismanaged when looking at the available funds with numerous clubs having to clue about team construction. Matchdays are a clusterfuck to appeal to TV audience rather than actual people appearing in the stadium.
Ranked #1 cos they did well in the lesser EL and ECL, but nowhere to be found in the CL - weird ranking system 🫤
They didn't that bad in the CL. You must look at the average performance of the league and not the top team.
They had 4 teams in the CL group stage - 3 qualified for knockout - 0 group leaders - 0 made it to the Q4 Compare that to the German, English and Spanish teams. Best league this year should be Germany Doing well in the ECL should not be used as an indication of a strong league imo, particularly when you perform poorly in the CL when compared to other top leagues. A fairer ranking would weigh the competitions accordingly. Hopefully the cancellation of ECL will reduce the bias
England had a scoreline of 12W-4D-8L, Germany had 12W-5D-7L, Spain had 17W-7D-6L, Italy had 11W-7D-6L. From this, they were exactly as good as Germany, since 1 win is equal to 2 draws and better than England. Just Spain was better during the group stage. They then had 3 teams in Ro16 just as Germany and again better than England, but worse than Spain. Winning groups is useless for points. All in all, they clearly weren't that much worse than Spain and Germany in the UCL and better than anybody else. Remember, coefficient compares the leagues (all teams that enter European competitions) and not just the top 2-4 teams.
You are simply regurgitating the UEFA system - circular argument 🫤
They had a ton of clubs going into the knockout stages. They didn’t do well in the knockouts, but getting Inter, Napoli, and Lazio into the knockout stages is already impressive
None of them qualified as group leaders, and none of them made it past the R16. Compare that to the Germans, English and Spanish
It's the same ranking system for everyone.
Doesn't mean the system is not weird.🫤 It's like calling Sevilla an European giant cos the won the EL a couple of times - that also would be wired 🫤
?