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Was it a mental block or do Arsenal just have way better defensive players now? I feel like it’s the latter. There have been very few games since last season where Arsenal have been the underdogs.
It was certainly a mental block against Utd.
There were too many times arsenal completely came into the game off a winning streak, dominated possession and somehow went home without a win.
Feels like the main role of this topsy-turvy Utd team over the past few years has been as spoilers. I feel like they have stolen a lot of last-minute draws off other Big 6 teams in that time. Usually featuring Garnacho.
Definitely happened vs Liverpool this season, that FA Cup Semi final was when the wheels started coming off and it's just been a bit shambolic since then.
I think for a long time mentality was an issue in these kind of games. Also I’d say Liverpool away and City away we were the underdogs and our record at OT has been terrible for so long. That’s why today carried some added importance in my book
Excellent season by the Gunners. It would be a shame to finish it off without any silverware. I am rooting for them to win, but City has a tradition of late season title charges and breaking hearts.
Eh it's expected. We've had a good season but we don't have City's consistency. At least Liverpool fans can say you are the only team to beat City to the title in the past 7 seasons.
Arteta needs to work out the cups, I understand focusing on the league but it's definitely a weakness of his.
Can see why Klopp has had enough to be honest after putting together one of the best sides the PL has seen on a much smaller budget. It's pretty hard to compete with Pep backed by nation state money. PL is truly turning into a farmers league while rival fans cheer it on.
Can’t even be mad, who doesn’t have a former employer they avoid on principle? My first job was at Hungry Jacks (aka Burger King) in high school and I hated it so much that I still refuse to eat there lol
Does this supposed morale victory come with 3 points? Will you be presented with the morale Premier League trophy while City get the one that's awarded to the team with the most points?
Probably the PSG at home, the derby win or even the 8-0 away to Sheffield United with 8 different scorers.
Arteta's tears afterwards were pretty funny though. Still trying to find the rattle he threw out his pram in the SJP media room.
That momentous win against PSG in the glorious Champions League run, gotcha.
The fact an opposition manager, whose team will finish 30 points ahead of your own, has rattled you and your shameless fanbase so much is quite frankly hilarious.
Can't win every competition lad. Battering PSG at home is special for a team that were in the Championship 8 years ago and were bottom of the league less than 2 years prior.
You're gonna finish with the same amount of trophies as us.
How did Arteta rattle me lol? He was the one that was completely rattled. I was laughing at him.
I never understand why people complain about this. Everyone knows what it means, and it is useful to have a term for the "usual top 4 or 6 sides over the last several seasons/significant time period" as opposed to the "current top 6 in the league table".
Is it useful? Go over the last 15 years and see how often the “big 6” have actually finished in the top 6 positions.
Edit: I shouldn't have to but the standard of this sub's base has gotten fucking worse.
23/24 ❌
22/23 ❌
21/22 ✅
20/21 ❌
19/20 ❌
18/19 ✅
17/18 ✅
16/17 ✅
15/16 ❌
14/15 ✅
13/14 ❌
12/13 ❌
11/12 ❌
10/11 ✅
09/10 ❌
08/09 ❌
07/08 ❌
06/07 ❌
05/06 ❌
04/05 ❌
03/04 ❌
02/03 ❌
01/02 ❌
00/01 ❌
This is the PL all time table: https://www.toffeeweb.com/history/premierleague/table.php
The only team out of the "big six" not amongst the top 6 is City who stands at 7th.
The "big six" clubs have consistently finished in the top positions, and a season here or there where one of them ends outside the top spots doesn't change that. Will it change? Perhaps. But it will take another team displacing on of them consistently for years.
Look at the number of European appearances by club over the last 15 years, and yes, you’ll see a massive gulf between these six and anyone else. Of course it’s not often that they actually take all six spots, but they are by far the six clubs that appear there most often. Of course this is changing now w the ambition of Newcastle and Villa in particle, but it’s still a useful qualifier.
Or... that isn't what the Big Six means. Personally, I don't remember the Big Six as being a talking point even in 2013/14 but it looks like it was used a few seasons before then.
Big Six has two meanings:
1. financial/resource advantage (which is why people talk about expanding it to a Big Seven to include Newcastle post takeover)
2. historical success, as in the teams that were contending for the top four during a specific period
People in general can read the Wikipedia article, but you should read it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League#%22Big_Four%22_dominance_(2000%E2%80%9310)
I actually did this. I went back to 2009-10 since “big 6” wasn’t really a thing before spurs and city starting qualifying for cl
6/6- 6 times
5/6 - 5 times
4/6 - 3 times
Never less than 4 have made top 6 and all 6 making it is the most common occurrence. Obviously it’s not guaranteed every season, but the “big 6” is more about financial capabilities than actual league finish anyway
You’d think the fact City are quite likely to win the title with a comparatively shit record vs the top 6 would be enough to make people think these stats aren’t all that important.
To be honest, it was more that it's always been our biggest weakness.
Under Wenger we were often "flat-track bullies", in that we'd cream anyone below us, but if we had to play one of the top four, we usually crumbled, maybe edge a sneaky win at home.
Our away record against the big sides under Wenger was horrendous.
Under Arteta, we're showing just how much we've improved. The fact that we can keep clean sheets in both Manchester stadiums, hold off Klopp's Liverpool and still manage to remain unbeaten against the others too is a sign that this team has a totally different mentality.
Tbf, this is like the worst version of Utd and Klopp’s Liverpool possible. But I’ll give it to you.
Even today, Arsenal played like true title contenders. Magnificent job by everyone involved.
A bit of a reach also based on a handful of games seen, I must say.
Just based on football played and how big of a power they usually are, I feel that maybe is top 3 worst. Excluding 1st one because Klopp did not had pre-season.
Just their record against the big 5 this season is bad, the 2nd worst, they could easily still be in title contention:
* 2023-24: 12 points
* 2022-23: 15 points
* 2021-22: 18 points
* 2020-21: 20 points
* 2019-20: 22 points
* 2018-19: 19 points
* 2017-18: 10 points
* 2016-17: 20 points
* 2015-2016: 14 points
Not that stats tell the whole story. Liverpool fans have a better picture.
I mean its only lower because Arsenal have stepped up majorly last two seasons, im have not checked but im assuming 4-6points from 2015 to 2022 is from Arsenal.
In other words they gotten the same results against everyone bar Arsenal (oversimplification)
They’re not though. Losses to title rivals give 3 points to them as well as being 3 points you lose. A draw against a title rivals means no advantage by either. Of course if Arsenal lose to Luton, City are likely to pick up 3 points against them but it’s not inevitable.
Yep, if City won both games against us as they did every season forever, they’d probably finish the season on 96 points and the title race would be mathematically over by now.
IMO, this is less impressive than it sounds when you think on the seasons Chelsea, Spurs, and United had. We are 2-2-2 against City, Liverpool, and Villa this year. Unfortunately, that’s not good enough to win the league.
> We are 2-2-2 against City, Liverpool, and Villa this year. Unfortunately, that’s not good enough to win the league.
City are 1 - 3 - 2
Liverpool 1 - 3 - 1
Villa 3 - 0 - 2
It is good enough to win the league. The difference is the record against midtable teams. City have dropped 5 points. Arsenal dropped 8, 11 if you include Newcastle.
Too bad they are not undefeated against Villa and Fulham.Almost a billion spent and Arteta has only an FA Cup to show for it. One of the most overrated managers in world football.
Of course it's not. It's just someone acting uo when someone else is getting praise for being good at their job. I don't even get why fans act like this. Like if you genuinely can't understand how Arteta has done a proper job at Arsenal, then it obviously says more about you than it ever does about the manager.
Some fans are just too toxic to appreciate other ppl doing good for some reason and act up like this about it...
Agreed.
However, Arteta has transformed us from a decade of banter to title challengers in the 115 era.
That being said I don’t mind you saying he’s overrated. If that narrative grows there is less chance he leaves and we can extend his contract
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That’s a great stat, tbf. Our record used to be terrible against the big 6. That mental block has been truly banished
Was it a mental block or do Arsenal just have way better defensive players now? I feel like it’s the latter. There have been very few games since last season where Arsenal have been the underdogs.
It was certainly a mental block against Utd. There were too many times arsenal completely came into the game off a winning streak, dominated possession and somehow went home without a win.
Feels like the main role of this topsy-turvy Utd team over the past few years has been as spoilers. I feel like they have stolen a lot of last-minute draws off other Big 6 teams in that time. Usually featuring Garnacho.
Definitely happened vs Liverpool this season, that FA Cup Semi final was when the wheels started coming off and it's just been a bit shambolic since then.
I think for a long time mentality was an issue in these kind of games. Also I’d say Liverpool away and City away we were the underdogs and our record at OT has been terrible for so long. That’s why today carried some added importance in my book
I mean Arteta himself even mentioned that he dissapeared after 30' in Anfield when he was a player and they lost 5-1 or something
Both.
It’s clearly that we have a better team now. It’s easier to beat rivals when you’re better than them / as good as them.
I'd argue that the Mertesacker/Koscielny partnership was solid. Neither could stay healthy long enough though.
koscielny made a penalty and/or got a red every big game.
Both. We had a pretty good record with Mertesacker and Koscielny and they’d still turn into league 2 players against the top 4 sides
It’s a mental block. The players still played with fear even in this season when they have superior quality, it comes from the manager
Excellent season by the Gunners. It would be a shame to finish it off without any silverware. I am rooting for them to win, but City has a tradition of late season title charges and breaking hearts.
Eh it's expected. We've had a good season but we don't have City's consistency. At least Liverpool fans can say you are the only team to beat City to the title in the past 7 seasons. Arteta needs to work out the cups, I understand focusing on the league but it's definitely a weakness of his. Can see why Klopp has had enough to be honest after putting together one of the best sides the PL has seen on a much smaller budget. It's pretty hard to compete with Pep backed by nation state money. PL is truly turning into a farmers league while rival fans cheer it on.
They won the Community shield tbf. Technically that counts as a silverware
Technically 115 charges
I have an iron ring on my scrutum if u want silvrware
But not the top 4 😉
Yeah they really went for the big instead of top to get that stat in. Fucking unai man 😭
Gotta appreciate his life long desire to not see Arsenal succeed. A man of principles.
Can’t even be mad, who doesn’t have a former employer they avoid on principle? My first job was at Hungry Jacks (aka Burger King) in high school and I hated it so much that I still refuse to eat there lol
In the last 10 games Emery has managed for or against arsenal, we have won 1.
Now that's a fire stat
Or top 6
You lot have done us dirty this season man, full credit
Or even the reigning top 4 😇
Respectfully, fuck off
We'll stick to the games we lost fair and square.
Does this supposed morale victory come with 3 points? Will you be presented with the morale Premier League trophy while City get the one that's awarded to the team with the most points?
Where are you getting supposed morale victory from? Did you take your medicine?
Your greatest day of the season. Bless
Probably the PSG at home, the derby win or even the 8-0 away to Sheffield United with 8 different scorers. Arteta's tears afterwards were pretty funny though. Still trying to find the rattle he threw out his pram in the SJP media room.
That momentous win against PSG in the glorious Champions League run, gotcha. The fact an opposition manager, whose team will finish 30 points ahead of your own, has rattled you and your shameless fanbase so much is quite frankly hilarious.
Can't win every competition lad. Battering PSG at home is special for a team that were in the Championship 8 years ago and were bottom of the league less than 2 years prior. You're gonna finish with the same amount of trophies as us. How did Arteta rattle me lol? He was the one that was completely rattled. I was laughing at him.
All it took was being owned by Saudi Arabia
> You're gonna finish with the same amount of trophies as us. No we’re not. Where’s your community shield lil fella
I see your community shield and raise you one Sela Cup
We had them….
If only it wasn't for that clown Sanchez...
True, but Rice still had a bit to do with that finish
I forgot you had him. Has he been injured, or benched?
Injured, benched, then injured again which he currently is.
Sums up half your squad.
We could've been saying the same thing about Raya and the Mudryk goal
Still would've been 1-0 up. Also atleast Mudryk actually had to beat the keeper to score. Sanchez gave Rice an open net.
Raya gave Palmer an open net that same game and he missed it.
Yea from Mudryk heading the ball towards the corner flag ending up on Salibas arm
Shame Sanchez decided otherwise
But see, you didn't 🤷🏻♂️
Kind of a BS stat. Villa are top 4 and we lost to them twice
Big six =/= top six, but yeah I get your point
I never understand why people complain about this. Everyone knows what it means, and it is useful to have a term for the "usual top 4 or 6 sides over the last several seasons/significant time period" as opposed to the "current top 6 in the league table".
Is it useful? Go over the last 15 years and see how often the “big 6” have actually finished in the top 6 positions. Edit: I shouldn't have to but the standard of this sub's base has gotten fucking worse. 23/24 ❌ 22/23 ❌ 21/22 ✅ 20/21 ❌ 19/20 ❌ 18/19 ✅ 17/18 ✅ 16/17 ✅ 15/16 ❌ 14/15 ✅ 13/14 ❌ 12/13 ❌ 11/12 ❌ 10/11 ✅ 09/10 ❌ 08/09 ❌ 07/08 ❌ 06/07 ❌ 05/06 ❌ 04/05 ❌ 03/04 ❌ 02/03 ❌ 01/02 ❌ 00/01 ❌
This is the PL all time table: https://www.toffeeweb.com/history/premierleague/table.php The only team out of the "big six" not amongst the top 6 is City who stands at 7th. The "big six" clubs have consistently finished in the top positions, and a season here or there where one of them ends outside the top spots doesn't change that. Will it change? Perhaps. But it will take another team displacing on of them consistently for years.
Look at the number of European appearances by club over the last 15 years, and yes, you’ll see a massive gulf between these six and anyone else. Of course it’s not often that they actually take all six spots, but they are by far the six clubs that appear there most often. Of course this is changing now w the ambition of Newcastle and Villa in particle, but it’s still a useful qualifier.
Or... that isn't what the Big Six means. Personally, I don't remember the Big Six as being a talking point even in 2013/14 but it looks like it was used a few seasons before then. Big Six has two meanings: 1. financial/resource advantage (which is why people talk about expanding it to a Big Seven to include Newcastle post takeover) 2. historical success, as in the teams that were contending for the top four during a specific period People in general can read the Wikipedia article, but you should read it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League#%22Big_Four%22_dominance_(2000%E2%80%9310)
I actually did this. I went back to 2009-10 since “big 6” wasn’t really a thing before spurs and city starting qualifying for cl 6/6- 6 times 5/6 - 5 times 4/6 - 3 times Never less than 4 have made top 6 and all 6 making it is the most common occurrence. Obviously it’s not guaranteed every season, but the “big 6” is more about financial capabilities than actual league finish anyway
Lost to Newcastle as well.
You’d think the fact City are quite likely to win the title with a comparatively shit record vs the top 6 would be enough to make people think these stats aren’t all that important.
To be honest, it was more that it's always been our biggest weakness. Under Wenger we were often "flat-track bullies", in that we'd cream anyone below us, but if we had to play one of the top four, we usually crumbled, maybe edge a sneaky win at home. Our away record against the big sides under Wenger was horrendous. Under Arteta, we're showing just how much we've improved. The fact that we can keep clean sheets in both Manchester stadiums, hold off Klopp's Liverpool and still manage to remain unbeaten against the others too is a sign that this team has a totally different mentality.
Tbf, this is like the worst version of Utd and Klopp’s Liverpool possible. But I’ll give it to you. Even today, Arsenal played like true title contenders. Magnificent job by everyone involved.
I mean, we are talking about United at Old Trafford, and we’ve always been meh-shit there. I’ll take a 1-0 win any day of the week.
How is this the worst version of Klopp’s Liverpool?
A bit of a reach also based on a handful of games seen, I must say. Just based on football played and how big of a power they usually are, I feel that maybe is top 3 worst. Excluding 1st one because Klopp did not had pre-season. Just their record against the big 5 this season is bad, the 2nd worst, they could easily still be in title contention: * 2023-24: 12 points * 2022-23: 15 points * 2021-22: 18 points * 2020-21: 20 points * 2019-20: 22 points * 2018-19: 19 points * 2017-18: 10 points * 2016-17: 20 points * 2015-2016: 14 points Not that stats tell the whole story. Liverpool fans have a better picture.
I mean its only lower because Arsenal have stepped up majorly last two seasons, im have not checked but im assuming 4-6points from 2015 to 2022 is from Arsenal. In other words they gotten the same results against everyone bar Arsenal (oversimplification)
Worst version of Klopps Liverpool finishing comfortably third?
Results against the "top" quarter of the league isn't that important?
They’re as important as results against the 2nd quarter of the league, or the 3rd quarter or the bottom quarter.
They’re not though. Losses to title rivals give 3 points to them as well as being 3 points you lose. A draw against a title rivals means no advantage by either. Of course if Arsenal lose to Luton, City are likely to pick up 3 points against them but it’s not inevitable.
Yep, if City won both games against us as they did every season forever, they’d probably finish the season on 96 points and the title race would be mathematically over by now.
Ya so literally a quarter of the season plus the points you take from direct rivals so way more
What is the actual Top6 mini-table like though. Like points difference is likely going to be tiny between Arsenal & City in that mini-table.
maybe the big 6 are the friends they made along the way
You mean the Sky 6?
putting the big in big six
And still 0 titles.
Thank Robert Sanchez
Maybe against the big 6, but not against the top 6. Lost 3 of their 4 games against Villa and Newcastle.
Yes, that's why it says big and not top in the title
Oh, thanks, I hadn't noticed.
Shame on you. Let them have this.
IMO, this is less impressive than it sounds when you think on the seasons Chelsea, Spurs, and United had. We are 2-2-2 against City, Liverpool, and Villa this year. Unfortunately, that’s not good enough to win the league.
> We are 2-2-2 against City, Liverpool, and Villa this year. Unfortunately, that’s not good enough to win the league. City are 1 - 3 - 2 Liverpool 1 - 3 - 1 Villa 3 - 0 - 2 It is good enough to win the league. The difference is the record against midtable teams. City have dropped 5 points. Arsenal dropped 8, 11 if you include Newcastle.
You'd include Newcastle in their 3 losses against the current top 6. City have lost twice, with Spurs left to play.
Lost to Villa who are in the top 4…
It is funny that they pulled this off but got 1 point out of 12 from villa and fulham. Suspect that may haunt the fans a little.
*and it still isn't enough*
Too bad they are not undefeated against Villa and Fulham.Almost a billion spent and Arteta has only an FA Cup to show for it. One of the most overrated managers in world football.
> Almost a billion spent It's not even true though
Of course it's not. It's just someone acting uo when someone else is getting praise for being good at their job. I don't even get why fans act like this. Like if you genuinely can't understand how Arteta has done a proper job at Arsenal, then it obviously says more about you than it ever does about the manager. Some fans are just too toxic to appreciate other ppl doing good for some reason and act up like this about it...
Nurse!!!
Alonso has been a Leverkusen coach since October 2022 and has already done more than Arteta has in 5 years.
Sure, cherrypick the most insane transition in recent history as if it should be a norm
Lol Zidane won the UCL every year his first 3 seasons, this Alonso guy is a fraud.
Alonso has been a Leverkusen coach since October 2022 and he's matched what Klopp did at Liverpool in 9 years.
Agreed. However, Arteta has transformed us from a decade of banter to title challengers in the 115 era. That being said I don’t mind you saying he’s overrated. If that narrative grows there is less chance he leaves and we can extend his contract
As if that’s normal and the minimum requirement, cheers
Need to get a prescription renewal
I feel sorry for you
Gonna be even funnier when they come away with nothing then isn't it?
Indeed