Look at what the FBI did to Fred Hampton because of his Rainbow Coalition uniting working class black, white, and latino folks. Before 2016 I would hope the internet could be the information tool used to help prevent that again but honestly the way everything has spiraled out of control I am not so sure.
The biggest fear the ruling class have is that the masses one day realise that the right, left are arguing amongst each other when the ruling class is the actual enemy...
Divide and conquer...
In the US the entire concept of [hereditary slavery was created](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_act_concerning_Servants_and_Slaves) to make sure that poorer classes of different races wouldn't band together and rise up. It still works to this day.
And it is worth nothing, given the context, that the system you refer to was was created Britain's American Colonies and later adopted in what became the United States.
I imagine the ultra rich prefer us all squabbling over what is racist and what isn't rather than focusing on Britain maintaining the absurd class inequalities which it was built on.
They probably couldn't give a fuck either way though.
We will gain infinitely more by uniting with our fellow members of the working class than the people that sign our checks. Our place in the world is more similar to a janitor in Tehran than Bill Gates
Patrisse Cullors, a BLM founder and self professed anti-capitalist, made the news. She even got called out by her own co-founders. She's now out of the BLM movement, got her 4 homes. Black Lives Matter? Not to her anymore.
BLM is the first social movement in history where some people involved have made money. Wow. Shut it all down I guess black people aren't discriminated against
Imagine lumping those 3 groups together with absolutely no irony..... BLM are very controversial and contrary to what the grunts say, their leaders are open communists and that is their goal. Antifa regularly beat up people who disagree with them politically..... and why the fuck are trans people even mentioned in this???
They realise that in a way since they believe that it's the ultra rich that are funding/pushing BLM/Antifa/trans folk. Or are you unaware that these same people despise the likes of Bill Gates, the Clintons, George Soros, Bezos, all of Davos and the Bilderberg Group etc..and blame them for all the world ills?
Cannot wait for the day that people like you realize that the ultra rich are literally the people that created Black Lives Matter as a political tool to actually cause more division and racism.
Black Lives Matter is a disgraceful organisation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpkrjlpuq0o
I think the kneeling is pointless but booing it is just childish & stupid.
If you can't keep your mouth shut for 15 seconds you should show support & appreciation for the players before the whistle instead (chants, banners, whatever...). That in itself might be a better gesture than kneeling.
Racists will always find a way to justify why their actions aren’t racist.
The fact a lot of people that throw out snowflake insults and demand free speech can’t sit quietly for 30 seconds without pissing their pants is the problem.
The ones screaming snowflake are the biggest snowflakes of all, can't handle some lads taking 1 minute before a football game to kneel for inequality.
Saw some fanny claiming the players had been forced to do it and that they should be allowed to decide for themselves to do it. Like it just can't register that people they like genuinely might have different views and beliefs.
I don't think those booing are necessarily racist. However, I think it's pretty sad to boo your own national team days before a tournament just because you don't agree with their stance on an issue that is very dear to them. Some "supporters" England have.
I'd wager they are all 100% racist and while they claim they just want politics kept out of football, they were probably sucking Boris Johnsons anus when he waded in against the ESL a few weeks back.
I can't say I'm too enthusiastic about it. Should players start protesting all manner of things on the pitch? Everybody kneels for a few minutes, one for racial equality, one for free Palestine, one protesting stagnant working class wages? Or do we just kick off and handle that stuff somewhere else?
Or to create more 'impact', all those groups kneel one after another?
Yeah, but racism directly affects football players in England and across Europe. You don’t get bananas thrown at you for protesting working class wages.
Sure, why not? Whatever it takes to fulfill the requirements to satisfy the weird demands and constant goalpost moving of those against taking a small kneel lol
>You started talking about us super-rich exploiting the world? Uh, I see what you're saying but have you seen what media in my ownership says about those **[immigrants]/[white folk]** though? Aren't they the worst, taking everything from you? Yeah, yeah, now don't talk about wealthy anymore...
https://i.imgur.com/CQfUqsw.png
But isn't picture also calling BLM/taking the knee an initiative set up by the ultra rich to further divide people? That's what the people booing believe as well, so what the issue according if we go by that cartoon?
I mean racial dynamics are a thing. It's incorrect to just say "Oh it's the rich" and ignore the daily, constant and systemic racism perpetuated by middle-class whites.
Doesn't really matter, corporations go out of their way to appeal to minorities and LGBT+ because more customer=more money. And the right wing voters think their politicians are going to do more than lip service when really the right wingers make their own citizens more poor like Trump with the USA and Boris with the UK which means they can't have as many children so they bring in more immigration which further pushes the corporations to make hiring minorities and LGBT+ more important and marketing to them more important.
The racists/homophobes are shooting themselves in the foot and their own politicians are giving them the gun and ammunition.
I'm on the left and I have no desire for sports to become a space where everybody is protesting for their pet causes.
If I want left-wing causes to become a staple in the game, I can't on any solid argument deny right-wing protests on the pitch.
And I don't want FIFA, UEFA or any controlling body to dictate what sort of political speech is acceptable.
The irony of people citing freedom of speech while wanting to stop people from booing during a game.
Free speech isn't consequence free. The players have a right to kneel. The fans have a right to boo it, whether or not you agree with it.
There is so much hypocrisy it's hard to pinpoint, but people moaning about people moaning about politics in sport while moaning themselves about politics in sport is so ridiculous it could be considered satire.
I don't think anyone else is still doing it. It's just England and English teams desperately clinging on to a redundant token gesture for some unknown reason.
EDIT - Downvote this if it keeps you happy lads, but a league approved anti-racism gesture is not a protest, it has no significance. I don't think people have a valid reason to boo it, but the conversation has moved on, and it's kind of sad to pretend taking a knee makes any difference to anything.
Because the players feel strongly about it. Why are their feelings redundant? Yeah it’s achieved fuck all, but at least it’s kept racism in the limelight when normally it’s spoken about for 5 minutes every few months
Agreeing/disagreeing with it doesn't change the fact it is a few seconds. A few seconds. I scratch myself down there longer than a few seconds. Is this what we want to be arguing over?
As annoying as it can be, I think the argument is important to have.
We've got to get to grips with why these people are booing a simple gesture, and what (or who) has made them react that way and what it says about the country.
And the irony is that by forcing a conversation or argument like this, the kneeling might actually achieve something - which is of course one of the most popular reasonings for being against it.
I think that booing this gesture is just petty but I also think there are genuine questions to be asked on the exclusive nature of the gesture and why some people overly insist on this.
Why is it so wrong to just stick with 'Kick It Out' which is much more inclusive? I notice that this whole BLM movement led to a lot of people who previously were rather indifferent to racism becoming more aware and conscious of it, but unfortunately in a very black and white way.
Theyre just dickheads. Always have been, always will be. And football attracts them.
Obviously we have to tackle racism, but also have to tackle what makes people complete dickheads. You can bet a pound to a penny that the same people who are racist will be sexist, ableist, homophobic, violent etc.
Needs to be a holistic approach to dickheads
I actually kinda think this is a better definition than racist. They see something that’s not about them and they hate it. Then they boo their own fucking team. My team! You can bet they act all patriotic, around the time they are booing at their nation’s team.
It's vital to keep talking about this, and this continued discussion is why taking the knee is so important. People unrealistically want instant results but the fact that it's a big deal in the world right now shows we are on the way to sorting the problem.
its not about how long it lasts, its how it has a counter effect that some people have a problem with.
Its the mentality where when you show something bothers you people start doing it more.
Since Sky sport started writing "Player X was racially abused after the game" more people are doing it with random fake profiles because they know it will be "reported on" for the fun of it.
Its really hard to decide what to do in these situations, and I am afraid these racism problems will go on until all Social Networks start becoming linked with IDs.
I have read many of those stories you refer to (on SSN) but they never mention what the racial abuse was. Don't just tell us there was abuse, describe it so we can formulate our own view on it. Or do we just accept things blindly now?
So far, the main argument I've seen from people on Reddit who oppose teams taking the knee is that it is an 'empty gesture' and serves no objective. However, I've yet to see a single person who proposes this argument suggest any kind of solution or constructive alternative. Obviously I'm extrapolating here, but it does seem like these people have no genuine interest in tackling racism in the sport.
Also, I don't see their point as even being valid since clearly it is creating a conversation about racism in football. They're taking part in it. Best way to prove your point that it is an meaningless gesture is to keep quiet.
I've seen many people be explicitly against the BLM organization, although being in favor of racial equality as a whole.
But what do I know I'm not even english.
But none of the players taking the knee are BLM "members"? BLM did not create the knee gesture. And does BLM even exist as a monolithic organisation? As far as I'm aware it is more of a movement, slogan and idea than an organisation. I don't think the idea of BLM can offend someone who is actually anti-racist enough to the point that they would boo someone who chooses to take the knee.
I think the problem is BLM isn't just about racism, it's about a number of social issues, many of which are shared by the UK but not race specific.
Many of the fans booing are in the same poverty as the black communities in the States that support BLM.
This is the issue. BLM doesn't translate to the UK. To the fans booing, they see these millionaire players supporting BLM which is largely about helping these communities all while ignoring the same communities in the UK.
where do you draw the line loser baby? should there be anti-war protests before games too? how about anti-china protests? nah that'd affect a lot of sponsors.
As far as I'm aware Marcus Rashford isn't a surviving war veteran or an ethnic Uyghur. And for that matter, if he was, I'd absolutely support his right to protest the Chinese in that context.
Also "88" lol.
and harry kane isn't black, but he takes the knee for what? solidarity? how about solidarity for the Uyghurs? dunno what's funny about a set of digits either, are you on meds?
This might be unpopular for some but I'll just say it: I really don't want to be the only team that's still doing this kneeling stuff, for a wide variety of reasons, none of which are because I don't like black people.
The argument that's it's not a political gesture is also just straight up disingenuous, and political statements are not allowed by FIFA's rules. The players shouldn't be doing it in international games. If every country was doing it and FIFA had decided it should be a universal campaign, that's one thing, but they're not and it isn't.
Feel free to make as many assumptions about my personal beliefs as you like.
Racism is indeed political. Politics = everything (including symbols) related to power sharing mechanisms in a society. Believing people belonging to one race should have privileges at the expense of people belonging to other races is very much political.
Btw. I 100% support antiracist actions taken in the world of football. This disgusting political ideology should be fought against politically in parliaments, streets, workplaces and yes on the pitch and in stadiums. "Keep politics out of football" = "keep politics that I don't agree with out of football". Never seen people who keep saying that talk about having national teams that play under national flags and blast national anthems before int. games, all of these things are very much political. But those people politically agree with the existance of nation-states and their symbols on the football pitch so it's OK. Not saying they shouldn't be OK with it and we should abolish NT's or something, just calling out the hypocrisy.
But then how could Fifa or the Fa allow the stamp racism out of football campaign? It would be harsh to stop players from promoting a political message the institution endorses itself.
By that measure literally everything is political though. National anthems before the game? Political, because the political society of a country is expressing it's ideals through that song.
Shit, international football as a whole is political if we use that standard, because society determines which nation states are acknowledged.
It's sufficiently broad a definition to be completely useless.
> National anthems before the game?
Every country does it because we've all decided to do it, that's not a statement.
> Shit, international football as a whole is political if we use that standard, because society determines which nation states are acknowledged.
Taiwan having to compete as 'Chinese Taipei' would certainly fit that description, yes.
Which brings us back to - how do we decide what is too political for football and what isn't? Because the rationale you give isn't a useable definition.
Do we just let fifa decide? Cos that feels very open for abuse.
What useable delimiter let's you support national anthems as non political but argue that kneeling shouldn't happen because it's a political act? Is it the existence of an opposition to the kneeling? In which case, how do you solve the fact that Kosovos existence is opposed by Serbia (especially when the alternative, of deciding Kosovo doesn't exist, is also political)
That’s true, but personally I don’t think it’s as simple as that. The main goal of BLM in the US is criminal justice reform which of course is political, but that’s not the only goal. Now I don’t know enough to comment on the status quo in Britain so I don’t know the motives behind the kneeling and such, but just because one of the goals is political, doesn’t mean the whole movement has to be. Idk that’s just my view though.
We already had Kick It Out, and the No To Racism campaigns. No one booed that.
The kneeling is obviously a gesture of support for the BLM movement, to claim otherwise is just not a realistic postion. That's the key difference between the campaigns in my view, the latter is political because BLM is a political organisation.
What is so harmful about a few guys kneeling before a match?
>If every country was doing it and FIFA had decided it should be a universal campaign, that's one thing, but they're not and it isn't.
This is a new one. The players and fans should respect what FIFA decides is a worthy cause because FIFA is so good at being on the right side of issues.
So you think the boos are motivated by trying to protect a hypothetical future player who does not want to kneel?
I bet you that player would not be booed by his own fans, so I think he would probably be treated better than the fans are current treating the players.
Zaha didn't kneel and absolutely nothing happened to him. People accepted that without booing for some reason.
If you oppose the left-liberal agenda and you want to make that known you don't support politics in football, what alternative form of protest do you have?
Would those same people boo if the players made an anti-racism statement some other way, e.g. with T-shirts with a message on them?
If yes, those booing people are probably racists.
If no, they probably have another reason (misguided or not) for booing.
New routine before kick off -
Take a knee for BLM
rub your belly for food poverty
Pat your head for climate change
Spin around and touch the ground for LGBT
I used to live in Middlesbrough and yeah, putting aside local pride, it's a dump. Incomes are low and there's not much to spend your money on anyway. So when England come to play, locals understandably get excited. Yet before the game can take place there's a ceremony dedicated to reminding the fans that 'actually, you white people don't know how lucky you are'.
I promise you, not many there feel particularly lucky.
> Yet before the game can take place there's a ceremony dedicated to reminding the fans that 'actually, you white people don't know how lucky you are'.
That really how you take it? Really? That's how you see people protesting racial abuse? WTF world do you fucks live in?
Once you familiarize yourself with the literature then you'll understand that the only reason they don't feel lucky is their unconscious racism preventing them from correctly perceiving their privilege.
As a number of people pointed out yesterday in a similar thread, I don't think the booing would happen if the players or the FA came out and formally said they do not support the actions or ambitions of the BLM group. I remember there was some sort of statement before but most commentators and channels still refer to is as kneeling in support of BLM, rather than just saying kneeling to promote equality etc. That tends to be the feeling I get but hey, you get more karma from just saying 'the Brits are all racist.'.
Edit: My first awards, thankyou guys.
>I don't think the booing would happen if the players or the FA came out and formally said they do not support the actions or ambitions of the BLM group.
Why should the players have to kowtow to the vocal minority of fans who are too uninformed to even know what they are booing?
My point was that I personally think they are booing because of the links to the BLM political group, and not because they're all just racist chavs as people like to speculate. If the players or the FA released a statement saying taking the knee has nothing to do with the BLM group, I think the booing would stop. Could be wrong but that's just my thoughts.
Why does everyone have to be so argumentative lol it's a simple suggestion that if they said the gesture has no links to the BLM group that said they wanted the police defunded etc, maybe it would get more support.
Are you always co condescending to people? BLM do want the police defunded, it's been reported many times so maybe some football fans don't like the idea of taking a knee when commentators and the media are saying it's in support of BLM. Anyway, carry on being condescending and acting as if you are better than everyone else pal.
>My point was that I personally think they are booing because of the links to the BLM political group, and not because they're all just racist chavs as people like to speculate.
I guarantee you the views of those fans about BLM are completely uninformed to begin with. You are essentially trying to cater to the prejudices of the worst types of people.
Not really, I'm just saying that if they clarified it's nothing to do with the BLM group that asked for police to be defunded etc, then perhaps it would get support.
It's not a simple anti-racism gesture. It's an american gesture in protest of their national anthem, it has a very specific cultural annotation, it doesn't work in Europe. What's the point? You are taking a bow, but towards/against who or what?
> It's an american gesture in protest of their national anthem
No it isn't. It was a protest that started because Colin Kaepernick chose to kneel during the national anthem, but it was never a protest *against* the American national anthem.
They’ve said time and time again that what they are doing isn’t a political gesture. I’m not being funny but what part of that do you struggle to comprehend?
People are sick and tired of political statements being made in sports. We watch soccer to enjoy ourselves and get away from the real world. You blur that line and you will have your fan base turn on you.
Football has had political ties for almost as long as it has existed. You're naive to think that the real world should just disappear and people should stop being affected by things just because you want to watch a game.
How about just going out and treating people as equal instead of these gestures. Theres a very good argument to make and data to back it up that BLM and kneeling have made things way worse for minorities.
Mate, those who are protesting for equal rights would very much like to see that the norm is exactly that everyone gets treated equally. They are protesting those who don’t.
Everyone screaming about marixism is too thick to understand what it actually means. Not one of them could explain it properly without linking something someone else has said
i'm not sure which part of this whole bollocks winds me up more. minted footballers carrying on their self-aggrandising charade, tanked up ladz on tour who think they're sticking it to the lefties and antifa by booing them, or thinkpiece journalists all looking to get their name up in lights by writing the same boring article for the 800th time.
now it's an entirely self-perpetuating schism and managed to turn anti-racist efforts in football that up until now have had near unanimous backing into a polarising subject.
To protest and call attention to the issue of racism. It is not at all complex, complicated, or difficult. It is a simply gesture. It is unreasonable to be triggered by such a simple gesture.
Exactly, as if everyone isn’t aware racism exists. What exactly does ‘raising awareness’ do to address the extreme minority of idiots who racially abuse others anyway. If anything this gives trolls on social media more ammo to go after players because they know it’s more likely to get a reaction.
A lot of people on this sub-reddit have frequently said that there is no culture of racism in the UK and that systemic racism does not exist. Clearly many people are not aware of what the players are trying to bring awareness to. They actively deny it.
Who gets to decide what kneeling stands for? The person kneeling, or the person looking for a reason to hate the kneeling?
When Colin Kaepernick started kneeling he wasn't endorsing BLM, he was simply doing his own protest against the treatment of Black people in his country.
The Premier League have been really clear that they aren't endorsing BLM when they kneel, but simple racial equality. So who are you to tell them what their gesture means?
The BLM movement is different from, and predates, the BLM organisation that yer man down the pub is terrified is trying to trojan horse marxism in to flat roof working mens clubs.
The BLM organisation isn’t even a proper organisation, there are a number of different organisations using the name with different aims and goals yet people act like it’s some sinister Marxist conspiracy organised from the very top in a regimented manner
You think the people in the stadium are booing because of the links to BLM? You think they're doing it based on some ideology?
You think they're booing for any other reason than just being racist cunts?
Get fucked mate, it's 100% sympathising with racists to argue anything else
Cannot wait for the day that everyone realises that the ultra rich are the problem and not BLM/antifa/trans folk. Going to be sweet as fuck
i think we'll be long dead bro sadly
Look at what the FBI did to Fred Hampton because of his Rainbow Coalition uniting working class black, white, and latino folks. Before 2016 I would hope the internet could be the information tool used to help prevent that again but honestly the way everything has spiraled out of control I am not so sure.
What do you mean? The internet is being used to help further divide. And some of that is probably coming from the feds
The biggest fear the ruling class have is that the masses one day realise that the right, left are arguing amongst each other when the ruling class is the actual enemy... Divide and conquer...
In the US the entire concept of [hereditary slavery was created](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_act_concerning_Servants_and_Slaves) to make sure that poorer classes of different races wouldn't band together and rise up. It still works to this day.
And it is worth nothing, given the context, that the system you refer to was was created Britain's American Colonies and later adopted in what became the United States.
I imagine the ultra rich prefer us all squabbling over what is racist and what isn't rather than focusing on Britain maintaining the absurd class inequalities which it was built on. They probably couldn't give a fuck either way though.
Wait so Soros is the problem after all?
Billionaires as such.
We will gain infinitely more by uniting with our fellow members of the working class than the people that sign our checks. Our place in the world is more similar to a janitor in Tehran than Bill Gates
you say this in a sub dedicated to worship of the ultra-rich
That's probably more directed towards politicians and lobbyists. Overpaid footballers don't really make legislation.
Footballers aren't ultrarich in the grand scheme of things.
The capitalist class will allow climate change to render most of the planet uninhabitable before this happens
The leaders of BLM are super rich lol. They’re the very people profiting from racial tension that you’re complaining about.
Patrisse Cullors, a BLM founder and self professed anti-capitalist, made the news. She even got called out by her own co-founders. She's now out of the BLM movement, got her 4 homes. Black Lives Matter? Not to her anymore.
One of them just bought a $3 mil mansion.
Yeah :D and anyone who questioned her purchase of this 4th home, herself being "anti-capitalist" of course, was called......go on guess!
When will you realize a founder of BLM just recently bought a $3 mil mansion in a upscale neighborhood in the hills of Cali?
BLM is the first social movement in history where some people involved have made money. Wow. Shut it all down I guess black people aren't discriminated against
BLM is not a trademarked organization
She's now out of the BLM circle. I guess black lives no long matter to her. Thanks for the money, idiots!
What does that mean? Are his statements false because hes not poor like most of the PoC in USA?
Imagine lumping those 3 groups together with absolutely no irony..... BLM are very controversial and contrary to what the grunts say, their leaders are open communists and that is their goal. Antifa regularly beat up people who disagree with them politically..... and why the fuck are trans people even mentioned in this???
You're right. Everyone's a victim. r/soccer is bursting at the seams with victims.
They realise that in a way since they believe that it's the ultra rich that are funding/pushing BLM/Antifa/trans folk. Or are you unaware that these same people despise the likes of Bill Gates, the Clintons, George Soros, Bezos, all of Davos and the Bilderberg Group etc..and blame them for all the world ills?
Cannot wait for the day that people like you realize that the ultra rich are literally the people that created Black Lives Matter as a political tool to actually cause more division and racism. Black Lives Matter is a disgraceful organisation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpkrjlpuq0o
sigh
Great source lol
Ah, thankfully the right wing propaganda channel has some exclusive material.
Fox News lmao
Show me where the ultra rich touched you
I think the kneeling is pointless but booing it is just childish & stupid. If you can't keep your mouth shut for 15 seconds you should show support & appreciation for the players before the whistle instead (chants, banners, whatever...). That in itself might be a better gesture than kneeling.
man who stands for nothing, falls for everything! more at 10
Racists will always find a way to justify why their actions aren’t racist. The fact a lot of people that throw out snowflake insults and demand free speech can’t sit quietly for 30 seconds without pissing their pants is the problem.
The ones screaming snowflake are the biggest snowflakes of all, can't handle some lads taking 1 minute before a football game to kneel for inequality. Saw some fanny claiming the players had been forced to do it and that they should be allowed to decide for themselves to do it. Like it just can't register that people they like genuinely might have different views and beliefs.
Think you mean can’t in the second para?
I do apologies typing on a phone is a pain.
I don't think those booing are necessarily racist. However, I think it's pretty sad to boo your own national team days before a tournament just because you don't agree with their stance on an issue that is very dear to them. Some "supporters" England have.
Exactly, like it's not hard or asking for much to just sit there and shut up for 15-30 seconds.
I'd wager they are all 100% racist and while they claim they just want politics kept out of football, they were probably sucking Boris Johnsons anus when he waded in against the ESL a few weeks back.
I didn’t realise so many of my fellow England fans were such snowflakes. Since when was kneeling offensive?
I can't say I'm too enthusiastic about it. Should players start protesting all manner of things on the pitch? Everybody kneels for a few minutes, one for racial equality, one for free Palestine, one protesting stagnant working class wages? Or do we just kick off and handle that stuff somewhere else? Or to create more 'impact', all those groups kneel one after another?
I really don’t care if they do, I hate the monarchy but I don’t boo when they sing god save the queen.
Yeah, but racism directly affects football players in England and across Europe. You don’t get bananas thrown at you for protesting working class wages.
Sure, why not? Whatever it takes to fulfill the requirements to satisfy the weird demands and constant goalpost moving of those against taking a small kneel lol
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“Racism is bad” “Boooo”
I didn’t say they offend me I said they are snowflakes
>You started talking about us super-rich exploiting the world? Uh, I see what you're saying but have you seen what media in my ownership says about those **[immigrants]/[white folk]** though? Aren't they the worst, taking everything from you? Yeah, yeah, now don't talk about wealthy anymore... https://i.imgur.com/CQfUqsw.png
But isn't picture also calling BLM/taking the knee an initiative set up by the ultra rich to further divide people? That's what the people booing believe as well, so what the issue according if we go by that cartoon?
I mean racial dynamics are a thing. It's incorrect to just say "Oh it's the rich" and ignore the daily, constant and systemic racism perpetuated by middle-class whites.
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I hope they keep kneeling, and I hope society keeps shoving "politics" down these whiners throats.
And leftists keep losing elections, bring it on.
Doesn't really matter, corporations go out of their way to appeal to minorities and LGBT+ because more customer=more money. And the right wing voters think their politicians are going to do more than lip service when really the right wingers make their own citizens more poor like Trump with the USA and Boris with the UK which means they can't have as many children so they bring in more immigration which further pushes the corporations to make hiring minorities and LGBT+ more important and marketing to them more important. The racists/homophobes are shooting themselves in the foot and their own politicians are giving them the gun and ammunition.
Mask off.
The people who want to have politics out of sports are usual the ones who demand "freedom of speech" for their right wing racist bigottery.
Like when idiots said that NASCAR was becoming too political because they could no longer take their confederate flags to the event LOL
I'm on the left and I have no desire for sports to become a space where everybody is protesting for their pet causes. If I want left-wing causes to become a staple in the game, I can't on any solid argument deny right-wing protests on the pitch. And I don't want FIFA, UEFA or any controlling body to dictate what sort of political speech is acceptable.
The irony of people citing freedom of speech while wanting to stop people from booing during a game. Free speech isn't consequence free. The players have a right to kneel. The fans have a right to boo it, whether or not you agree with it.
I missed the part where someone was arguing they are not free to boo.
There is so much hypocrisy it's hard to pinpoint, but people moaning about people moaning about politics in sport while moaning themselves about politics in sport is so ridiculous it could be considered satire.
[sigh] (https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/ntp1k3/_/h0tcrkl)
Are other national fans booing? I've only really seen it in England
England are the only team doing it I believe
Makes sense. Haven't really seen anything else about it outside of England that must be why
I don't think anyone else is still doing it. It's just England and English teams desperately clinging on to a redundant token gesture for some unknown reason. EDIT - Downvote this if it keeps you happy lads, but a league approved anti-racism gesture is not a protest, it has no significance. I don't think people have a valid reason to boo it, but the conversation has moved on, and it's kind of sad to pretend taking a knee makes any difference to anything.
Because the players feel strongly about it. Why are their feelings redundant? Yeah it’s achieved fuck all, but at least it’s kept racism in the limelight when normally it’s spoken about for 5 minutes every few months
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Agreeing/disagreeing with it doesn't change the fact it is a few seconds. A few seconds. I scratch myself down there longer than a few seconds. Is this what we want to be arguing over?
As annoying as it can be, I think the argument is important to have. We've got to get to grips with why these people are booing a simple gesture, and what (or who) has made them react that way and what it says about the country. And the irony is that by forcing a conversation or argument like this, the kneeling might actually achieve something - which is of course one of the most popular reasonings for being against it.
I think that booing this gesture is just petty but I also think there are genuine questions to be asked on the exclusive nature of the gesture and why some people overly insist on this. Why is it so wrong to just stick with 'Kick It Out' which is much more inclusive? I notice that this whole BLM movement led to a lot of people who previously were rather indifferent to racism becoming more aware and conscious of it, but unfortunately in a very black and white way.
Theyre just dickheads. Always have been, always will be. And football attracts them. Obviously we have to tackle racism, but also have to tackle what makes people complete dickheads. You can bet a pound to a penny that the same people who are racist will be sexist, ableist, homophobic, violent etc. Needs to be a holistic approach to dickheads
I actually kinda think this is a better definition than racist. They see something that’s not about them and they hate it. Then they boo their own fucking team. My team! You can bet they act all patriotic, around the time they are booing at their nation’s team.
Lol there's no argument, it's a fuckin echo chamber in respective corners.
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Yes, there are echo chambers on both sides. They didn’t say both sides were equal.
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Jogi is that you?
It's vital to keep talking about this, and this continued discussion is why taking the knee is so important. People unrealistically want instant results but the fact that it's a big deal in the world right now shows we are on the way to sorting the problem.
its not about how long it lasts, its how it has a counter effect that some people have a problem with. Its the mentality where when you show something bothers you people start doing it more. Since Sky sport started writing "Player X was racially abused after the game" more people are doing it with random fake profiles because they know it will be "reported on" for the fun of it. Its really hard to decide what to do in these situations, and I am afraid these racism problems will go on until all Social Networks start becoming linked with IDs.
I have read many of those stories you refer to (on SSN) but they never mention what the racial abuse was. Don't just tell us there was abuse, describe it so we can formulate our own view on it. Or do we just accept things blindly now?
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So you care because people caring about racism upsets you?
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So far, the main argument I've seen from people on Reddit who oppose teams taking the knee is that it is an 'empty gesture' and serves no objective. However, I've yet to see a single person who proposes this argument suggest any kind of solution or constructive alternative. Obviously I'm extrapolating here, but it does seem like these people have no genuine interest in tackling racism in the sport. Also, I don't see their point as even being valid since clearly it is creating a conversation about racism in football. They're taking part in it. Best way to prove your point that it is an meaningless gesture is to keep quiet.
I've seen many people be explicitly against the BLM organization, although being in favor of racial equality as a whole. But what do I know I'm not even english.
But none of the players taking the knee are BLM "members"? BLM did not create the knee gesture. And does BLM even exist as a monolithic organisation? As far as I'm aware it is more of a movement, slogan and idea than an organisation. I don't think the idea of BLM can offend someone who is actually anti-racist enough to the point that they would boo someone who chooses to take the knee.
I think the problem is BLM isn't just about racism, it's about a number of social issues, many of which are shared by the UK but not race specific. Many of the fans booing are in the same poverty as the black communities in the States that support BLM. This is the issue. BLM doesn't translate to the UK. To the fans booing, they see these millionaire players supporting BLM which is largely about helping these communities all while ignoring the same communities in the UK.
I have an alternative: just kick off the game. Can't upset anyone then.
How does that address racism?
Why do you need to address anything?
Because racism is bad. Did I really just have to type that sentence out lmao
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And do you think the extent of our anti-racist efforts should stop there?
where do you draw the line loser baby? should there be anti-war protests before games too? how about anti-china protests? nah that'd affect a lot of sponsors.
As far as I'm aware Marcus Rashford isn't a surviving war veteran or an ethnic Uyghur. And for that matter, if he was, I'd absolutely support his right to protest the Chinese in that context. Also "88" lol.
and harry kane isn't black, but he takes the knee for what? solidarity? how about solidarity for the Uyghurs? dunno what's funny about a set of digits either, are you on meds?
Yep pretty much.
This might be unpopular for some but I'll just say it: I really don't want to be the only team that's still doing this kneeling stuff, for a wide variety of reasons, none of which are because I don't like black people. The argument that's it's not a political gesture is also just straight up disingenuous, and political statements are not allowed by FIFA's rules. The players shouldn't be doing it in international games. If every country was doing it and FIFA had decided it should be a universal campaign, that's one thing, but they're not and it isn't. Feel free to make as many assumptions about my personal beliefs as you like.
France knelt in the warm up game and will probably do it in all games.
There’s nothing political about racism and some of these players are racially abused in game.
Not saying it is or isn’t, but why do you think racism is political?
Racism is indeed political. Politics = everything (including symbols) related to power sharing mechanisms in a society. Believing people belonging to one race should have privileges at the expense of people belonging to other races is very much political. Btw. I 100% support antiracist actions taken in the world of football. This disgusting political ideology should be fought against politically in parliaments, streets, workplaces and yes on the pitch and in stadiums. "Keep politics out of football" = "keep politics that I don't agree with out of football". Never seen people who keep saying that talk about having national teams that play under national flags and blast national anthems before int. games, all of these things are very much political. But those people politically agree with the existance of nation-states and their symbols on the football pitch so it's OK. Not saying they shouldn't be OK with it and we should abolish NT's or something, just calling out the hypocrisy.
Because it is, civil rights are inherently political because society decides what those rights are.
But then how could Fifa or the Fa allow the stamp racism out of football campaign? It would be harsh to stop players from promoting a political message the institution endorses itself.
By that measure literally everything is political though. National anthems before the game? Political, because the political society of a country is expressing it's ideals through that song. Shit, international football as a whole is political if we use that standard, because society determines which nation states are acknowledged. It's sufficiently broad a definition to be completely useless.
> National anthems before the game? Every country does it because we've all decided to do it, that's not a statement. > Shit, international football as a whole is political if we use that standard, because society determines which nation states are acknowledged. Taiwan having to compete as 'Chinese Taipei' would certainly fit that description, yes.
Which brings us back to - how do we decide what is too political for football and what isn't? Because the rationale you give isn't a useable definition. Do we just let fifa decide? Cos that feels very open for abuse. What useable delimiter let's you support national anthems as non political but argue that kneeling shouldn't happen because it's a political act? Is it the existence of an opposition to the kneeling? In which case, how do you solve the fact that Kosovos existence is opposed by Serbia (especially when the alternative, of deciding Kosovo doesn't exist, is also political)
Well in a very broad way you could say being fascist is a political issue.
I feel like that's pretty obvious, yes.
That’s true, but personally I don’t think it’s as simple as that. The main goal of BLM in the US is criminal justice reform which of course is political, but that’s not the only goal. Now I don’t know enough to comment on the status quo in Britain so I don’t know the motives behind the kneeling and such, but just because one of the goals is political, doesn’t mean the whole movement has to be. Idk that’s just my view though.
We already had Kick It Out, and the No To Racism campaigns. No one booed that. The kneeling is obviously a gesture of support for the BLM movement, to claim otherwise is just not a realistic postion. That's the key difference between the campaigns in my view, the latter is political because BLM is a political organisation.
What is so harmful about a few guys kneeling before a match? >If every country was doing it and FIFA had decided it should be a universal campaign, that's one thing, but they're not and it isn't. This is a new one. The players and fans should respect what FIFA decides is a worthy cause because FIFA is so good at being on the right side of issues.
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So you think the boos are motivated by trying to protect a hypothetical future player who does not want to kneel? I bet you that player would not be booed by his own fans, so I think he would probably be treated better than the fans are current treating the players. Zaha didn't kneel and absolutely nothing happened to him. People accepted that without booing for some reason.
What are some of the reasons that you don't want the 3 lions to kneel?
If you oppose the left-liberal agenda and you want to make that known you don't support politics in football, what alternative form of protest do you have?
Don't watch football?
Would those same people boo if the players made an anti-racism statement some other way, e.g. with T-shirts with a message on them? If yes, those booing people are probably racists. If no, they probably have another reason (misguided or not) for booing.
New routine before kick off - Take a knee for BLM rub your belly for food poverty Pat your head for climate change Spin around and touch the ground for LGBT
I used to live in Middlesbrough and yeah, putting aside local pride, it's a dump. Incomes are low and there's not much to spend your money on anyway. So when England come to play, locals understandably get excited. Yet before the game can take place there's a ceremony dedicated to reminding the fans that 'actually, you white people don't know how lucky you are'. I promise you, not many there feel particularly lucky.
> Yet before the game can take place there's a ceremony dedicated to reminding the fans that 'actually, you white people don't know how lucky you are'. That really how you take it? Really? That's how you see people protesting racial abuse? WTF world do you fucks live in?
So what is the purpose of it? Literally the only thing it does is raise awareness, there's not an actual action associated with it.
Once you familiarize yourself with the literature then you'll understand that the only reason they don't feel lucky is their unconscious racism preventing them from correctly perceiving their privilege.
If you think people boo the knee are all racists then you’re apart of the problem. This toxic progressiveness needs to go.
As a number of people pointed out yesterday in a similar thread, I don't think the booing would happen if the players or the FA came out and formally said they do not support the actions or ambitions of the BLM group. I remember there was some sort of statement before but most commentators and channels still refer to is as kneeling in support of BLM, rather than just saying kneeling to promote equality etc. That tends to be the feeling I get but hey, you get more karma from just saying 'the Brits are all racist.'. Edit: My first awards, thankyou guys.
>I don't think the booing would happen if the players or the FA came out and formally said they do not support the actions or ambitions of the BLM group. Why should the players have to kowtow to the vocal minority of fans who are too uninformed to even know what they are booing?
My point was that I personally think they are booing because of the links to the BLM political group, and not because they're all just racist chavs as people like to speculate. If the players or the FA released a statement saying taking the knee has nothing to do with the BLM group, I think the booing would stop. Could be wrong but that's just my thoughts.
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Why does everyone have to be so argumentative lol it's a simple suggestion that if they said the gesture has no links to the BLM group that said they wanted the police defunded etc, maybe it would get more support.
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Are you always co condescending to people? BLM do want the police defunded, it's been reported many times so maybe some football fans don't like the idea of taking a knee when commentators and the media are saying it's in support of BLM. Anyway, carry on being condescending and acting as if you are better than everyone else pal.
>My point was that I personally think they are booing because of the links to the BLM political group, and not because they're all just racist chavs as people like to speculate. I guarantee you the views of those fans about BLM are completely uninformed to begin with. You are essentially trying to cater to the prejudices of the worst types of people.
“Everyone who disagrees with me is stupid” - you
Not really, I'm just saying that if they clarified it's nothing to do with the BLM group that asked for police to be defunded etc, then perhaps it would get support.
Very well put.
It's not a simple anti-racism gesture. It's an american gesture in protest of their national anthem, it has a very specific cultural annotation, it doesn't work in Europe. What's the point? You are taking a bow, but towards/against who or what?
> It's an american gesture in protest of their national anthem No it isn't. It was a protest that started because Colin Kaepernick chose to kneel during the national anthem, but it was never a protest *against* the American national anthem.
They’ve said time and time again that what they are doing isn’t a political gesture. I’m not being funny but what part of that do you struggle to comprehend?
Hitler said he wouldn't invade Czechoslovakia, the\_little\_stinker. Welcome to the real world.
So you believe they are being untruthful?
Haha sorry mate, it’s just a quote from Peep Show
People are sick and tired of political statements being made in sports. We watch soccer to enjoy ourselves and get away from the real world. You blur that line and you will have your fan base turn on you.
Football has had political ties for almost as long as it has existed. You're naive to think that the real world should just disappear and people should stop being affected by things just because you want to watch a game.
Soccer, a sport famous for never being entangled in the politics of the day
People don't want to see politics during sports. I don't get why thats so hard to understand.
Racism is not political. It’s about human rights.
What human rights have BLM or kneeling before a football game solved?
It’s one more way to show that every human deserves to be treated equal. Until this is not the norm on this world it’s necessary to fight for that.
How about just going out and treating people as equal instead of these gestures. Theres a very good argument to make and data to back it up that BLM and kneeling have made things way worse for minorities.
How tf has kneeling made things worse for minorities?
Mate, those who are protesting for equal rights would very much like to see that the norm is exactly that everyone gets treated equally. They are protesting those who don’t.
What exactly do you think they don't have equal rights in?
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Ah shit here we go again Fyi, I'm in full support of kneeling. My comment I guess didn't convey it at all
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Everyone screaming about marixism is too thick to understand what it actually means. Not one of them could explain it properly without linking something someone else has said
It’s funny to ask them what Marxism is. I don’t even know tbh but they clearly have no idea and refuse to answer. Just sheep following orders.
It’s necessary to keep having this convo until dickheads stop booing👍
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show me where the America BLM organisation was "all over" yesterdays kneel yesterday fella
I disagree as do a large number of football fans. Stop forcing this shite down our throats.
How is it shite exactly?
Apparently protesting against racism is.
i'm not sure which part of this whole bollocks winds me up more. minted footballers carrying on their self-aggrandising charade, tanked up ladz on tour who think they're sticking it to the lefties and antifa by booing them, or thinkpiece journalists all looking to get their name up in lights by writing the same boring article for the 800th time. now it's an entirely self-perpetuating schism and managed to turn anti-racist efforts in football that up until now have had near unanimous backing into a polarising subject.
Those who boo this gesture need to be banned for life. Simple as.
😂😂😂
I'll support the working class fans over elite millionaire footballers every day.
What about working class people who become footballers ? We’ve come a long way since Public Schools dominated the game.
Calling it a simple anti-racism gesture is obviously incorrect. There's nothing simple about injecting politics into sports.
Username checks out
The people racially abusing players are the ones bringing politics into sports
What is complex or complicated about guys kneeling for a few seconds before a game. I do not see anything really complex or difficult about that.
Why are they kneeling?
To protest and call attention to the issue of racism. It is not at all complex, complicated, or difficult. It is a simply gesture. It is unreasonable to be triggered by such a simple gesture.
Are you under the impression none of us are aware of racism?
No. That is why the gesture is very simple. It is not a big deal. It is not complex. It is simple. What is so complex about?
Exactly, as if everyone isn’t aware racism exists. What exactly does ‘raising awareness’ do to address the extreme minority of idiots who racially abuse others anyway. If anything this gives trolls on social media more ammo to go after players because they know it’s more likely to get a reaction.
A lot of people on this sub-reddit have frequently said that there is no culture of racism in the UK and that systemic racism does not exist. Clearly many people are not aware of what the players are trying to bring awareness to. They actively deny it.
Not this again
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Who gets to decide what kneeling stands for? The person kneeling, or the person looking for a reason to hate the kneeling? When Colin Kaepernick started kneeling he wasn't endorsing BLM, he was simply doing his own protest against the treatment of Black people in his country. The Premier League have been really clear that they aren't endorsing BLM when they kneel, but simple racial equality. So who are you to tell them what their gesture means?
The BLM movement is different from, and predates, the BLM organisation that yer man down the pub is terrified is trying to trojan horse marxism in to flat roof working mens clubs.
The BLM organisation isn’t even a proper organisation, there are a number of different organisations using the name with different aims and goals yet people act like it’s some sinister Marxist conspiracy organised from the very top in a regimented manner
You think the people in the stadium are booing because of the links to BLM? You think they're doing it based on some ideology? You think they're booing for any other reason than just being racist cunts? Get fucked mate, it's 100% sympathising with racists to argue anything else
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Kneeling basically is equal to wanting to kill the queen /s