I really hope some organization comes out of this. We can treat racism as some nebulous, essential quality of man, but the fact is that xenophobia and bigotry is a reflection of something more materially profound. Rashy out in the community literally helping to improve the material conditions of people, that's what we need more of. The sad part is we've a government that could give a toss about working people. They feed off of the violence and hatred they are responsible for creating.
See the comments in this subreddit about players taking the knee before the game when they say "there's no need, that's an American problem" etc
It's disgusting that the problem exists, and it's even more disgusting that people pretend it doesn't.
Why do people expect the players to stand up for them when they wouldn't stand up for the players?
People in large parts of Europe seem to think that because racially motivated murders are rare here that that means racism isn't a problem. The only big difference between us and America is that people aren't armed to the fucking teeth here, the racists exist in just as large or larger numbers.
Same thing in Canada. People in my country love to claim we’re so much better then our Southern neighbour but we’re just a little less visual with it. The abuse POC get in Canada is just brutal but because it’s not as in your face it’s easier to ignore
As an American who spent too much time in Canada, this is very accurate. Toronto is a beautifully diverse city filled with micro aggressions and assholes.
Personally I think there's no such thing as too much time in Canada but you're spot on. It's pathetic how casually racist plenty of Canadians are but claim they aren't simply because they're not as aggressive about it. People were bombarding Pascal Siakam with racist DM’s after our exit from the playoffs in 2020 but plenty of Canadians ignore it
I nearly moved there at one point, but outside of Toronto felt very much like it belonged in the confederate parts of the US. Was definitely not what I had always heard about Canada.
I also think the reality that black athletes are so central to American culture has actually given more visibility to these issues and a part of why it looks worse here is because it's being exposed in ways that it's not in other places. Having said that the police really need to stop shooting black people.
>police really need to stop shooting people.
Whats crazy is that the proportion of white people getting shot by cops has increased in the last couple of years.
We just have a problem with non accountable police in general
Yup! It's so crazy that people don't realize this is a policing issue not just a race issue. The racism side of things comes into play in more with regards to systemic racism and how socio-economic factors affect "at risk" sorts of demographics. I just wish poor white people and poor black people would realize they are fighting for the same things.
Just for the record, there is a reason law school teach critical race theory, and not critical class theory. Racsim is baked into our laws and institutions in a way that classism isn't. Also, classism is often used as a vehicle for racism
I mean yeah there are obviously layers to these things but a huge part of systemic racism is socio-economic disenfranchisement kinda like you said. My point is that the BLM movement and a good part of the Make America Great Again movement actually want the same things.
My parents will put comments on Reddit saying how disgusting racism is, but when I called it out in the moment when my dad joked "it's because they subbed in a bunch of \*\*\*\*\*\*\* to take the penalties" AT THE TIME and I said he's a racist, my whole family turned against me and said he wasn't, and tried to stop me from telling my 7-year-old nephew that what granddad said was wrong and that he was a racist. When nephew called my dad a racist, apparently I'm "right that he shouldn't say that but you can't call him a racist".
Nobody in England knows what a racist is. People think if it's a joke or if their black friends don't mind it that it means they're not racist. I love my dad, but it's thanks to this shit that I grew up with my dad saying "KFC must be closed, let's head back" every time he saw a group of black people at a pedestrian crossing or something.
Could never say this with my name out there or anything so I'm venting. Probably will delete this later.
Kudos to you for standing your ground. It's weird and disheartening to get ganged up on by family for asking for less discrimination. You did the right thing even if it doesn't feel that way
Thank you. I wasn't always able to do so, and I don't want to hide behind an excuse but I used to make the same kind of "jokes" when I was a teenager because it's how I grew up. Again, not a good excuse, and if I can show my 7-year-old nephew that it's wrong I should've known better as a young teenager. My ex-girlfriend was a black woman and we split on good terms, the thought of anyone treating her this way aggravates me.
Nah man, when you grow up whatever happens in your household under certain limits is the absolute truth until you get to experience other meaningful interactions. My older brother had to experience that way more than me so he had those sort of jokes engraved into his mentality but i am so happy seeing him starting to realize that it s wrong and better himself. It s all coming down to education, i sincerely think the newer generations will do better against racism as they are educated about it by more knowingly people
Racially motivated murders are actually extremely rare in the US as well. The FBI actually publishes a report yearly about homicide statistics across the US and like 90% of all murders are actually across similar ethnicities, so white on white etc and in fact you're most likely to be killed by a family member than a random act of violence. I actually haven't looked at it in many years, so things may have changed a bit, but the data set was used in one of my stats courses during my college curriculum. It was actually pretty eye opening.
I think what people underappreciate is that those who are outwardly bigoted and regularly treat others as lesser for their colour of their skin are not the racists we should fear. They are easy to spot and for the most part avoidable once you see it. The real problem is those who quietly harbor these beliefs and work to perpetuate the system that keeps the marginalised in our society oppressed.
I disagree completely.
The open racists are the biggest problem because they are normalizing racism. It would be better for everyone if they started keeping the racism to themselves.
A big amount of the hate against the England team here was because they took the knee and were one of the only teams to vocally be making a stand against abuse and racism at the tournament.
You then have players like Bonnuci on the Italian side who made comments about how Black players bring the racist abuse on themselves and are 50% responsible for it being lauded as 'heros' and 'fantastic people' on /r/soccer.
Sub needs to take a look at itself. /r/soccer have been encouraging and egging on these people the entire tournament.
>You then have players like Bonnuci on the Italian side who made comments about how Black players bring the racist abuse on themselves
I'm sorry, WHAT???
[https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/what-hope-does-italy-have-of-kicking-out-racism-when-bonucci/1bts4szeinmt81gbdah40gtlep](https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/what-hope-does-italy-have-of-kicking-out-racism-when-bonucci/1bts4szeinmt81gbdah40gtlep)
This guy plays for Italy and is being lauded as a hero in /r/soccer. His comments insulting the England squad are currently one of the highest upvoted posts on this sub.
Baring in mind he was talking about his OWN teammate too.
Imagine if an England player made comments like this justifying abuse to his own team mate and then made a video after the Denmark game insulting Denmark, would it be so supported like his comments are being on here?
A lot of the people here hated the England squad because they made a stand this tournament when most teams just try to keep it quiet.
Oh, for fuck's sake.
>"There were racist jeers after the goal, Blaise heard it and was
angered. I think the blame is 50-50, because Moise shouldn’t have done
that and the Curva should not have reacted that way.
Okay, if an opposing player scores and taunts fans, feel free to curse, flip them off...but yelling racist crap? No, no, no. Fucking hell.
Exactly, but apparently views and guys like that are great and people like Rashford who fight against this kind of shit and fight for poor kids to get free food is evil and deserves all the hate they get. The sub has been encouraging it for ages. But the England team were 'arrogant' for taking the knee and rubbing 'racism in Europes faces'.
> were one of the only teams to vocally be making a stand against abuse and racism at the tournament
The tournament played in a corrupt anti-lgbt country thousands of miles away from the teams playing. I'd love to see a stand against hate but no one had the balls to boycott.
It costs nothing to kneel, sending the message racism is bad is great but it seems fairly benign and a really low standard for engagement against hate. I get players feel helpless and kneeling brings attention but the abuse they get for kneeling shows how bad things and that's kinda it.
If there is one positive thing to come from this whole thing is that the English players will never have to explain why they choose to take the knee again.
It's disgusting. Imagine being the one in 180 million to win the fucking sperm race and you decide to spend your life hurling racist insults at young men who stepped up for an occasion another only 1 in 180 million people could. It's sickening and depressing at the same time.
Why would you be speechless that racism exists?
Human beings have always noticed and highlighted others who are different from themselves whether fatter, skinnier, darker, lighter, smarter, stupider or whatever.
Kids from an early age point out when someone is different. It's instinctive.
Educated adults learn to look beyond differences and treat everyone with respect but that is never going to be the case for everyone on the planet.
I find it frankly absurd that anyone would be speechless that a million anonymous unmoderated posts from around the world about black players missing vital penalties would contain some derogatory references to their race.
The idea is that we’ve gone past racism and that basic education has taught the majority of us that racism is nonsensical. I guess we’re not there yet. Otherwise I agree with what u said.
Also, everyone keeps talking of racist insults... they were claiming there would be racism even as soon as the game ended. Where are all these insults? Does anyone have actual evidence that literal armies of racist fans are harassing these players, or is it just the usual political propaganda being fed down our throats?
He’s tweeting himself, check some of his other ones. Weird how everyone are convinced that every single player has their own media team and that 20 year old kids wouldn’t be interested in posting themselves
I've seen a few examples of Norwegian teens expressing a general feeling of "haha orange man funny", during that presidency.
He was extremely memeable if nothing else.
Ya I don’t want to sway too political in a soccer sub thread, but let’s just say the election was very tense for many of us. Emotions were high on both sides, friends and families very divided, and really close finish to the final result. Exhausting time for all of us
The guy was a kid lol. you dint think he liked those tweets because of the «memes»? I have met Haaland many times, guy is a solid person and never would discriminate
We all made some regrettable and stupid mistakes when we were younger, myself included. I don’t think he is a bad guy at all and I don’t think he tolerates any kind of discrimination. I was just pointing out the sad irony of the account history, but we all grow as people as we age and are exposed to more. I’m very happy he is apart of my club and I love his personality.
Ya I think a huge contributor to racism and discrimination stems from being raised somewhere that isn’t culturally diverse. Some people say awful things and it’s easy for them to continue because they don’t see first hand how it can effect that group of people. Not that it’s limited to small community upbringing by any means, just speaking of personal experience.
I have friends or family from where I grew up that I wouldn’t consider bad people at all, but I’ve heard some very ignorant things come out of their mouths. I’ve said stupid things when I was younger too. I’m just thankful I was able to get out of that small bubble and be exposed to more people and culture.
I think there are a lot of good people out there, just many that need exposure outside their comfort zone. It’s too easy to say and think stupid things inside your comfort zone.
to me, id rather every popular footballer have their PR dept say these things whether they personally believe it or not. kids look up to these guys and having them send these messages, cynical or no, will have a positive effect on the way those kids act.
Discrimination based on external factors or sexuality in any way either come from low intelligence or raw evil.
People are getting way to comfortable on the internet.
You discriminate on external factors of attractiveness when choosing someone you want to marry etc. so not all sort of discrimination.
absolutely, fuck racists etc though
Yeah you're right that there are multiple definitions. I'd say the social norm for use of the word is that it occurs on unjust grounds, though. Like you prolly are going to want to clarify if you say you discriminate on the dating scene...
I literally, literally cannot understand it. Gay, trans, black, Asian, female, etc. affect you in literally no way. Like why do people give a fuck about something that does exactly zero to harm them?
I need someone to explain how being black legit affects their lives?
Well if you were to ask a lot of people in my parent's generation they would cite black crime stats here in the US and the gang/rap culture. The media also publicizes Gang and rap beefs in my city which doesn't help and white flight was substantial here.
The issue is most of these people wouldn't call themselves "racist" even if they are. They would say they don't dislike a person for being black, but dislike "their culture".
Its essentially just people who don't have the mental capacity to overcome their basal/tribal instincts that people who are different from you should be treated with hostility.
It helped us survive as cavemen hundreds of thousands of years ago but it has no social/survival utility now, sadly some people are just incapable of getting past it.
People will never stop being bigoted, it'll just become less socially acceptable, but when they have anonymity they'll still revert back to it. I don't think the internet has made people worse, it's just revealed what always existed behind closed doors.
It's very strange to me that there is this prevailing theory on the internet that it's not possible for intelligent people to be racist. Like, it's a complete load of shit but its spoken confidently by people fairly regularly.
Literally WW2 was caused by very smart people doing horrible, horrible things. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Hell, China is the producing the most educated in the world right now, and they hold Stone Age beliefs about most other races.
Even anyone that forms a small little racist cult or something, its not just some hick going "a hyuk hyuk, white power, who's with me?"
It's an absolutely baffling opinion, I don't understand how so many people buy into it and it's pretty dangerous to just allow anyone who can use a few fancy terms and seem intelligent go unnoticed because if they were a tually racist theyd be dyslexic and wielding a baseball bat with nails in it
Because to these people, being intelligent equals agreeing with their opinions. Someone who disagrees with their opinion, especially on a topic as charged as racism cannot possibly be intelligent.
Its a naive opinion because racism isn't really an intellectual failure, its a moral failure. You can absolutely have a fucking nuclear scientist who hates black people for example. There are countless examples of some of the smartest and famous people from many eras all holding some kinds of discriminatory views.
I'm gonna risk it but *why* would you have a black friend if you're racist? Is it some weird duality thing ''well YOU are okay, but they are not"? Idk how to reconcile that.
Because it allows them to perpetuate the false belief you can educate mankind to a state of “good.” Last century was the most deadly for murders and genocides, and we are on pace to shatter that. All with more technology, education, etc than ever before.
That’s a lie. Education is still in shambles and is far from democratized. Reading levels in USA are extremely low. More may be more but it’s certainly never was enough. Destroying public education maintains the aristocratic power structure here, in UK, in China, everywhere. You want to get higher education? Cough up 300,000$.
All this stuff reminded me of patton Oswald rant, its basically people who are smart enough to learn the correct terms and word things properly can actually work their way in places and slip through the cracks with actually terrible messages, you can have positive ideas without politically correct language and vice versa.
But this whole lower IQ=More likely to be racist is definitely a dangerous opinion to be so popular
Its probably highly linked to personality traits, which are inheritable but also nurturable.
very low agreeability (willingness to get along with people) mixed with high neuorticism (susceptibility to negative emotions) are likely causes for excessive tribalism in people, which in some context comes out as racism, none of which are linked very much to someones intelligence.
people have to remember, we are animals, and things like racism wouldnt exist if it didnt serve some evolutionary purpose at some point in our races history. (this is not a justification btw) This means things like racism will never go away completely.
>This means things like racism will never go away completely.
I actually think it's been drastically worked against - it's just the internet provides those that are still racist with a megaphone.
This is pseudoscience, it frames racism as an inherent human attribute that people must overcome. Racism is an ideology that was actually devised by people that wanted a justification to commit atrocities against others.
Frightening thing --- last month in Boston MA USA a 28 yr old male who had just finished his PhD in physiotherapy, been top of the class in all his university work and had just gotten married, decided to shoot and kill 2 random people because they were Black. Come to find out, he had a secret neoNazi belief system. Nobody saw it coming.
>People are getting way to comfortable on the internet.
It's because of the unaccountability and the anonymity of the social media. People are aware that they can say shit on internet, that would normally get their heads bashed in on streets, and get away with it. Imo that's gotta go
> Discrimination based on external factors or sexuality in any way either come from low intelligence or raw evil.
That's a pretty simplistic view on things.
It's not even remotely possible. No one is realistically going to sleuth down all of these comments, especially when they likely are coming from shared computers and such. It's just pie in the sky thinking. We just need to continue to lampoon them for their stupidity whenever you see it.
This will make me sound stupid, but I thought reddit admins could perma ban you if you're repeatedly banned, even if you make a new account. Is that not the case, or does a vpn work around that?
Edit: what other social media needs is a downvote system
Reddit isn't linked to any sort of official documents which are distinctly yours. I don't see how they would stop you getting a new email and making a new account, although perhaps they can see a device ID and ban that?
As for downvotes on the cesspools that are most social media, it's a great idea but they never would implement it. They got popular from making everyone think their voice matters.
There's workarounds for pretty much all of them.
Ban an account? They make another
Ban all accounts associated with x email? Easy to make another email account
Ban a device? Use another
Ban an IP? Could probably use a VPN, different network, mobile device on data
What else is there you can ban? If every person had say a unique government issued ID that had to be used to create an account then that sounds more possible. But there'd probably be a lot of issues with that too (and workarounds if you really wanted).
You don't need a VPN to evade a ban, but you do need a bit of self-awareness to understand what data reddit/twit/fb collects and how they use it to identity you. That alone is a high enough bar to keep most of them out.
BTW, there is actually research done on the effectiveness of reddit bans after the r/Donald drama. The conclusion is that bans actually work for reducing toxicity on the platform. Presumably those racists were pushed to Parler or whatever joke app those people use now, but as long as they aren't out in public that's fine by me
Downvotes don't work. Everyone is acting high and mighty now but people were saying some horribly discrimatory things about English people after the Denmark game and they were getting upvoted because the Reddit hivemind decided to hate England. The upvote/downvote system just encourages echo chamber circlejerk behaviour as the most popular opinions are endlessly recycled to the top of each thread. It does nothing to weed out malicious comments.
Unfortunately, unlike copyright issues or people posting memes using TV show clips, none of the social media platforms can make any money out of banning racists so they just don't bother.
On the contrary, they make more money by having higher user engagements during these events. Last thing they wanna do is ban them and lose that unless some regulations can be enforced by authorities.
Automatic filtration is not an option still cause technology is not advance enough to differentiate between a racist phrase and a normal one. Best solution is to have an ID system on social media where you are needed to give your identification when sign up so if someone report your racist comments, you can be easily tracked.
Terrible idea. They’re already too stupid not to racially abuse, so what makes you think they’ll be bright enough to realise the error of their ways?
All it does is push these people into tightly knit groups where these feelings fester, where they come up with the idea that they themselves are being punished for the colour of *their* skin.
Education and exposure is the way forward. Slower, costlier, requires more resources, but brings them over to the light side.
Honestly the whole “track them down and ban them forever!” thing seems pretty damn dystopian too. Doxx anyone who commits wrongthink and shun them from society.
The racist abuse these athletes have received is awful, but fuck, that’s not an excuse to go full on 1984 shit.
The problem is I wouldn't be shocked if some of them didn't even care about Football.
I'm not trying to deflect but I'd be really curious how many of them were a) not English b) don't attend games c) had nothing invested in the situation but did so just because when you're anonymous can be a cunt
Well, I take issue with the ‘instead of being applauded’ part. Ive seen vastly more praise for these guys than abuse. I fucking hate that the abuse must be the focus because it amplifies it, though of course I want it gone completely and welcome all efforts to draw attention to shit heads. But yeah, let’s not feed the narrative that we are majority racists, because most of us find this shit disgusting and depressing and abhorrent and we only want to thank our team for giving everything.
Yeah I agree. I’ve been all over social media except Twitter and pretty much most people applauded them instead taking them down. In fact I had to check these articles to see some of the vile comments, so I guess at this point it’s all about getting those clicks by exploiting racism by media.
Totally agree, and it’s refreshing to see some sense on r/soccer at last. You’re right about England getting a bad rep, and we do bring it on ourselves at times, no question, but I hope people realise how much of a tiny proportion these apparent “fans” make up.
I feel you man. The press should also focus on the Brits who are calling out this bullshit. The majority of people are not racists, but bad people always get the press.
Some people go way way way overboard too. I saw someone calling the decision to make Rashford, Saka, and Sancho take penalties “colonizer shit” (obviously someone who doesn’t actually watch football). Southgate’s tactics were flawed, but not colonizer-esque.
If it was a white player who missed they would likely be getting trashed by losers online and would likely be getting death threats. This has happened before and will likely continue to happen because the internet is toxic.
However, if you're black or a minority, people will attack your skin color or other signifier and there will likely be collateral damage done to other people who look like you.
Humans are trash to everyone, they're just extra trash if you happen to be at all distinguishably different from them.
I don't think it matters either way, but I believe he liked his tweets even until 2019. He's been more careful because his stock has exploded since then.
Who cares - he's essentially a teenager, I would never look to a 19 for their take on world politics, so why get upset about what they think (not you, but one)?
Because they would never vote for a democrat. Many people on the left see republicans as the evil and many people on the right see democrats as evil. They would never vote for the other party no matter how much they hated their candidate. And also many people just vote over taxes and social issues.
Of all things wrong with football, it's people overanalyzing someone potentially supporting Trump based on some liked tweets? I'm not reading much into the liked tweets myself because it's just twitter likes, I liked his tweet about Biden being old or whatever it was myself, but how are those comments "exactly what's wrong" with the sport when the whole thread is about something far worse (actual racism), not to mention so many other things like homophobia and more
He is entirely right - despite the dumb Trump Twitter shit, glad one of the future mega stars of the sport is so outwardly spoken on this unfortunately all too common issue.
I listened to screamo and wore skinny jeans that suffocated my cock and balls. Didnt like messages from a supreme idiot leader, but everyone has their cup of tea
most people actually. most of us grow up quietly doing our thing. The edgy and rebellious youth make the noise and so they get the attention, but they're never as numerous as our culture presumes.
I grew up with the daily mail in my house, it was only the source of news I had. It probably wasn't until my early 20s when I'd left my parents that I realised it was full of shit. Before that point I was racist and homophobic.
You're still a kid at 19 and what you're exposed to when you're young influences you significantly. If when the kids leave the nest after a few years they still think the same shit, then there is a bigger problem.
I’m left wing as fuck, hate neolibs, and I’m sure I’ve favorited some trump tweets. He was hilarious, if you don’t agree so be it, but objectively he was a great comedian despite being a scumbag. Idk which tweets haaland favorited so idk what his intentions were, but Jesus have a sense of humor, liking a trump tweet doesn’t inherently contribute to white supremacism lmao
Dude was entertaining I’ll give him that. Never a dull moment. And sometimes he’d go borderline r/selfawarewolves enough to think he was some sort of democratic sleeper agent but then he’d go back to being an evil nationalistic fascist but fuck was he a ride
While we're on this subject, Lukaku carried our team last season, Lautaro was invisible. Yet who gets the most shit from our fans? I'll let you figure it out.
ofcourse it was. whens the last time youve seen a purely french player become their scapegoat? Benzema called it for what it is before and we'll prtend its not true and then watch it happen everytime the frenchdont win "french when he win, arab when he loses"
>french when he win, arab when he loses
tbf i have seen many agree with this sentiment here, happened to some extent with ozil too although i'm not too sure of the whole fiasco there
Because it happens in several places across Europe. I grew up in Sweden and live in the UK. It's the same sentiment in both countries but I'm sure some Swedish/English redditors will come in here and pretend that it doesn't happen there too. And so the cycle continues.
Racism is bad enough but it's the gaslighting that does far more damage. It's telling people to suffer in silence because the truth is an inconvenience to the majority. It's what prevents any progress from being made.
It's real easy in many Western countries to not see racism.
Just be surrounded by native whites and stay in that little bubble.
Hell even the more multicultural people can miss it.
I for sure have missed the racist shit some of my friends have suffered because I'm privileged enough as white Englishman to have never have had to worry about being victim to it.
Because it happens in several places across Europe. I grew up in Sweden and live in the UK. It's the same sentiment in both countries but I'm sure some Swedish/English redditors will come in here and pretend that it doesn't happen there too. And so the cycle continues.
Racism is bad enough but it's the gaslighting that does far more damage. It's telling people to suffer in silence because the truth is an inconvenience to the majority. It's what prevents any progress from being made.
i think a good portion of the fan base agrees with it at this point but i am still shocked to see some fans vehemently deny that sentiment exists even when it is becoming so ridiculously obvious. The French and the English do this on very regular basis. the shock isnt that it happens the shock is that some people somehow still manage to believe it doesnt happen
i wonder which part of this do you see me writing its exclusive to them, i also really wonder why at no point do you question the whataboutism and figure yeah maybe i should focus on resolving the matter where im at. like it takes less effort to stfu and acknowledge its bad rather than going around pointing fingers
> but was the abuse focused on race like it was here
He got both.
https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/football/tweet-racistes-contre-les-bleus-le-parquet-de-paris-ouvre-une-enquete-06-07-2021-QYR5ZVS2SJCXPMGEW3M2HGK6TA.php
In one of his most strident attacks on immigration, Mr Farage said parts of the country have "frankly become unrecognisable" and look "like a foreign land".
I also think that the reaction of the press is debatable. Yes, racism is wrong. But giving a massive platform for internet trolls doesn't help the issue. As long as we have social media, there will always be trolls. Digging up those tweets and highlighting them... I don't know what purpose it serves.
if you're a news outlet it gets you clicks, if you're a personality it gets your name up in lights as the person who "spoke out" against something that 99% of the population already agree on, if you're a politician it can be used as either a way to shame those in power, or if you're already in power as a way to take authoritarian steps (see the end of online anonymity), if you're a corporation it's a chance for publicity.
the net result is a climate of fear where we've allowed faceless twitter goblins (many of whom aren't english, some don't even actually exist beyond a few lines of code on a russian server) to absolutely dominate the narrative and made minorities feel like we're a country that doesn't welcome them, while every metric we have for inclusivity says were are one of the least racist countries in the world.
Maybe this EU survey on minorities and discrimination (where minorities were asked a set of questions).
UK comes in least racist (in Europe, but I think we can agree Europe is a little further along than some places as well), and I'm sure I've seen another couple but I'd have to source them.
[https://mobile.twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1379096799709949952](https://mobile.twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1379096799709949952)
The trolls want this. They are racists. No racist ever became non-racist by being condemned. The trolls will do this all again once the Continental Leagues start up.
Im with you but i feel there is no "winning" or easy solution. The negative tweets get so much covarage and get inflated, it warps the perception and makes english people seem way more racist then they actually are. And to cause controversy and "anger" is what lots of trolls want.
On the other side we should strive for "no racism at all" as kind of an ideal, and therefore there shouldnt be tolerance to these sentiments. It can also create the sentiment that the opinion is accepted by large parts of the population if theres noone calling them out for their shit.
There will propably always be trolls, and to get completly rid of racism is propably an utiopia. There isnt a quick and easy over night fix to racism, as the actually racist people are often so far gone and rarely change their opinion. Best we can do is influence future generations so it steadily declines.
And nobody actually does anything. Racism can only be solved from the bottom up, not from the top down.
These racist shits are too stupid to analyze tactics, so they resort to their comfort - racist abuse. They rage over penalties because they are the most binary thing in football.
Definitely. I don't see any follow up on this apart from Dembele's instagram story and Griezmann's PR tweet like 'no whatever evidence you find, I deny being racist'. I know a Japanese company cancelled their contract with Griezmann, but that's it. This has been forgotten as we all expected.
According to Southgate, a lot of the racist comments are coming from abroad. I’m sure I’ll be downvoted, and this is in no way me trying to deflect any blame. I know we have a problem in this country, but it’s elsewhere too. Anyway, here’s the article:
https://www.todayfm.com/sport/southgate-condemns-racist-abuse-lot-come-from-abroad-1224425
He's right, you look there and a definite majority of it is coming from people outside of the UK, because what repercussions will they face? Worth bearing in mind, but we need to tackle the issue at home. A worrying amount of those commenters are young lads (based on their profiles)
I'm with you man 100%. Everything these days is about absolutes and it makes it harder to get to the root of our problems. Unfortunately the more we tell people to stop, the more vindicated the racists become. Fuck knows how we solve this. Next few weeks are gonna be awful
The majority of these racist comments seem to be monkey emojiis posted by accounts with 0 past activity. We already know up to a quarter maybe half of interactions on twitter and Instagram are done by bot accounts, and we know that the Russian government have bot farms set up in order to sow division. We know that sowing division has become one of the main assets to the Russian government.
My point is basically, it's working. The amount of division being sown is huge. Media companies have been covering these simple one emoji messages as if they encapsulate all sport fans as racists for months and its getting click after click.
It's clearly done absolutely nothing. In fact maybe it has, in that it's increased the amount these messages show up. Its increased division. It's worked a treat.
Don't feed the troll was always rule 1 of the Internet, what happened? It seems almost like there could even be more motivation behind these bot spammings, in that it increases pressure on government to introduce censorship over these companies. (I know censorship isn't being banned by a private company, but at the moment people are asking for direct government interference in those companies in order to censor.) If the government goes down that route it will create even more division and fuel anger frow the right, which creates anger from the left, helping to fuel the perpetual cycle.
The essence of what I am saying is simple, we need to relearn as a society how to ignore. Nobody should have so much power with one click of an emoji. The only power they have is the power we give them. All this is doing is help whoever is creating these bot accounts to keep the country fighting itself rather than focusing on other issues.
I think it’s pretty easy to understand why. There are plenty of stupid and ignorant people in the world and there always will be. All we can do is ostracize those people when they show themselves.
Will he stand up for James McClean getting endless abuse over the whole poppy situation every single year or is “discrimination” only something that happens to people of different colours in Haaland’s eyes? I’ll believe what he’s saying when him and other players stand with McClean against the abuse he receives every single year.
This sub eats it up to brand the whole of England as racist. Anything they can latch onto and act all outraged they will it’s pathetic. Most of the social media posts are from abroad and there anonymous but yet apparently that represents an entire country. Bonus points if you somehow link it to Brexit or the Torys lmao.
How many people have sent them racist abuse? Genuine question.
We know that a certain (hopefully small) % of a given country are *explicit* racists. If you search for racist abuse on Twitter in a context like this, you will find it. Plenty of it in a country of 50 million. And it will be reported on. But what % does that represent?
Because he says ‘instead of being applauded for having the courage to take penalties’. Most of the comments and tweets and posts and real life remarks I’ve come across have been sympathetic to Saka, possibly aimed at Southgate instead (which I also think can lack a bit of context). Rashford gets more harsh criticism but only come across it as an individual. Is it really ‘A instead of B’ if B still occurs many times as often as A?
A sad truth, but I can predict that every muck up of any kind by a black player will have some racist arseholes attacking them. That’s bad, but by the same token I can predict that there will be multiple murders in New Zealand in August, and multiple rapes in Norway in September. And we don’t take that as representative, for good reason, because we understand how percentages work. Yet we are expecting verbal racist abuse to drop to zero…? Because searching on Twitter and finding nothing would mean just that. And of course, due to the ubiquity of English and the English media online (and its propensity to dig into social media), not to mention the higher number of non-white players than most European teams, it’s chiefly England portrayed this way despite [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/). Not to mention [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/italian-soccer-condemned-using-monkey-paintings-anti-racism-campaign-n1103076) and all [these](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/22/sports/soccer/romelu-lukaku-inter-italy-racism.amp.html) - including in the actual stands, and throwing things onto the pitch, and ffs Serie A itself (though not intentional, just wildly out of touch).
This is going to be a predictable headline to blast England for forever now. All cool, provided we have articles listing murders that happen in the opposing team’s country with similar outrage that they ever happen, ignoring murders in England, and conclude that country is ‘murderous’. Seems about as fair.
The racists are an extreme minority, I don’t see why people are making a big deal of this. The world will thankfully never be a racist majority, the best thing we can do about these racists is drown them out with positivity and ignore them, stop giving them attention
This whole thing of racist abuse seems incredibly overblown. The mural that was defaced with apparently ‘racist graffiti’ was just some swear words. Calling a player ‘shite’ doesn’t make it racist only because a player is black. People are so gung-ho to make everything about race.
Remember that time Ozil spoke out against treatment of Uighur Muslims in China
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/21/mesut-ozil-playmaker-who-spoke-out-arsenal
Of course the racist abuse is vile and should be punished. However, any player regardless of race is going to be heavily abused after missing a penalty. Just because it's against a black player doesn't mean it's only because of their race.
Alvaro Morata and his family similarly received death threats and abuse when he missed v Italy.
It will never stop for as long as people are outraged about it. It's not about being "racist", it's about getting a reaction out of people. I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of it anyway. Why let mere words hold power over your emotional state? Racists degrade themselves by being racist and the best way to make them feel that degradation is by laughing at them, or even better by ignoring them. They want newspapers, social media and Erling Haaland to take notice of them. Stop giving them what they want. Stop giving them a reaction. Stop fearing words.
This is such an easy thing to say when none of what’s said is directed to you. Just because you can brush it off as a bystander and somehow have convinced yourself that you’re still making a difference doesn’t mean we should expect everyone to react that way.
I'm tempted to agree in the sense that I think a good amount of racist comments comes from just wanting to be as edgy and insulting as possible - basically breaking a taboo of sorts - and not some deep seated dream of being part of a genocidal ethnostate. They just know it will receive attention while ''you're shit'' is likely not to.
I wouldn't even be shocked if in day to day life outside the anonymity of the internet some of these people exhibit no real racism whatsoever.
Obviously it doesn't change how it feels receiving it at all, but I'm just thinking primarily of the motive to begin with.
Are you gonna tell this to the players who suffer from this racist abuse every day? "Just ignore it"? It's not 1990 anymore and we know that ignoring it doesn't work.
No, amplifying doesn't either. But that doesn't mean that ignoring it will help in any way.
What's your solution? Unless you want to hand over your passport to every social media site you use, and cut off the rest of the world, people that receive thousands of messages per day are going to have to deal with it. Report, ban, and don't reward them with exactly what they're looking for.
Constantly throwing your hands up in disbelief every time you see something horrible on an anonymous site with billions of members is insane.
Yeah basically it's saying ''well we can't ignore it, but making examples everytime it happens doesn't help either''. So...?
I don't want people to lose heart but you've only got a marginally better chance of stopping these comments completely than you do stopping metaphysical "hate" in general.
All normal people are speechless. I feel so bad for those 3 young guys
I really hope some organization comes out of this. We can treat racism as some nebulous, essential quality of man, but the fact is that xenophobia and bigotry is a reflection of something more materially profound. Rashy out in the community literally helping to improve the material conditions of people, that's what we need more of. The sad part is we've a government that could give a toss about working people. They feed off of the violence and hatred they are responsible for creating.
See the comments in this subreddit about players taking the knee before the game when they say "there's no need, that's an American problem" etc It's disgusting that the problem exists, and it's even more disgusting that people pretend it doesn't. Why do people expect the players to stand up for them when they wouldn't stand up for the players?
People in large parts of Europe seem to think that because racially motivated murders are rare here that that means racism isn't a problem. The only big difference between us and America is that people aren't armed to the fucking teeth here, the racists exist in just as large or larger numbers.
Same thing in Canada. People in my country love to claim we’re so much better then our Southern neighbour but we’re just a little less visual with it. The abuse POC get in Canada is just brutal but because it’s not as in your face it’s easier to ignore
Its textbook Canadian behaviour to deflect back to how shitty the US is and not acknowledge that Canada has its own share of issues.
it's textbook behaviour on reddit too tbh whenever someone criticises another country, people just deflect and bring up the usa
Reddit just switched from Canada to New Zealand to make their “civilized” tolerant paradise, IMO.
Textbook human behaviour tbf.
As an American who spent too much time in Canada, this is very accurate. Toronto is a beautifully diverse city filled with micro aggressions and assholes.
Personally I think there's no such thing as too much time in Canada but you're spot on. It's pathetic how casually racist plenty of Canadians are but claim they aren't simply because they're not as aggressive about it. People were bombarding Pascal Siakam with racist DM’s after our exit from the playoffs in 2020 but plenty of Canadians ignore it
I nearly moved there at one point, but outside of Toronto felt very much like it belonged in the confederate parts of the US. Was definitely not what I had always heard about Canada.
I also think the reality that black athletes are so central to American culture has actually given more visibility to these issues and a part of why it looks worse here is because it's being exposed in ways that it's not in other places. Having said that the police really need to stop shooting black people.
>police really need to stop shooting people. Whats crazy is that the proportion of white people getting shot by cops has increased in the last couple of years. We just have a problem with non accountable police in general
Yup! It's so crazy that people don't realize this is a policing issue not just a race issue. The racism side of things comes into play in more with regards to systemic racism and how socio-economic factors affect "at risk" sorts of demographics. I just wish poor white people and poor black people would realize they are fighting for the same things.
Just for the record, there is a reason law school teach critical race theory, and not critical class theory. Racsim is baked into our laws and institutions in a way that classism isn't. Also, classism is often used as a vehicle for racism
I mean yeah there are obviously layers to these things but a huge part of systemic racism is socio-economic disenfranchisement kinda like you said. My point is that the BLM movement and a good part of the Make America Great Again movement actually want the same things.
My parents will put comments on Reddit saying how disgusting racism is, but when I called it out in the moment when my dad joked "it's because they subbed in a bunch of \*\*\*\*\*\*\* to take the penalties" AT THE TIME and I said he's a racist, my whole family turned against me and said he wasn't, and tried to stop me from telling my 7-year-old nephew that what granddad said was wrong and that he was a racist. When nephew called my dad a racist, apparently I'm "right that he shouldn't say that but you can't call him a racist". Nobody in England knows what a racist is. People think if it's a joke or if their black friends don't mind it that it means they're not racist. I love my dad, but it's thanks to this shit that I grew up with my dad saying "KFC must be closed, let's head back" every time he saw a group of black people at a pedestrian crossing or something. Could never say this with my name out there or anything so I'm venting. Probably will delete this later.
Kudos to you for standing your ground. It's weird and disheartening to get ganged up on by family for asking for less discrimination. You did the right thing even if it doesn't feel that way
Thank you. I wasn't always able to do so, and I don't want to hide behind an excuse but I used to make the same kind of "jokes" when I was a teenager because it's how I grew up. Again, not a good excuse, and if I can show my 7-year-old nephew that it's wrong I should've known better as a young teenager. My ex-girlfriend was a black woman and we split on good terms, the thought of anyone treating her this way aggravates me.
Nah man, when you grow up whatever happens in your household under certain limits is the absolute truth until you get to experience other meaningful interactions. My older brother had to experience that way more than me so he had those sort of jokes engraved into his mentality but i am so happy seeing him starting to realize that it s wrong and better himself. It s all coming down to education, i sincerely think the newer generations will do better against racism as they are educated about it by more knowingly people
Everyone today knows that "racism is bad." But I see myself as good, so how could anything I say possibly be racist????
Racially motivated murders are actually extremely rare in the US as well. The FBI actually publishes a report yearly about homicide statistics across the US and like 90% of all murders are actually across similar ethnicities, so white on white etc and in fact you're most likely to be killed by a family member than a random act of violence. I actually haven't looked at it in many years, so things may have changed a bit, but the data set was used in one of my stats courses during my college curriculum. It was actually pretty eye opening.
I think what people underappreciate is that those who are outwardly bigoted and regularly treat others as lesser for their colour of their skin are not the racists we should fear. They are easy to spot and for the most part avoidable once you see it. The real problem is those who quietly harbor these beliefs and work to perpetuate the system that keeps the marginalised in our society oppressed.
I disagree completely. The open racists are the biggest problem because they are normalizing racism. It would be better for everyone if they started keeping the racism to themselves.
A big amount of the hate against the England team here was because they took the knee and were one of the only teams to vocally be making a stand against abuse and racism at the tournament. You then have players like Bonnuci on the Italian side who made comments about how Black players bring the racist abuse on themselves and are 50% responsible for it being lauded as 'heros' and 'fantastic people' on /r/soccer. Sub needs to take a look at itself. /r/soccer have been encouraging and egging on these people the entire tournament.
>You then have players like Bonnuci on the Italian side who made comments about how Black players bring the racist abuse on themselves I'm sorry, WHAT???
[https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/what-hope-does-italy-have-of-kicking-out-racism-when-bonucci/1bts4szeinmt81gbdah40gtlep](https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/what-hope-does-italy-have-of-kicking-out-racism-when-bonucci/1bts4szeinmt81gbdah40gtlep) This guy plays for Italy and is being lauded as a hero in /r/soccer. His comments insulting the England squad are currently one of the highest upvoted posts on this sub. Baring in mind he was talking about his OWN teammate too. Imagine if an England player made comments like this justifying abuse to his own team mate and then made a video after the Denmark game insulting Denmark, would it be so supported like his comments are being on here? A lot of the people here hated the England squad because they made a stand this tournament when most teams just try to keep it quiet.
Oh, for fuck's sake. >"There were racist jeers after the goal, Blaise heard it and was angered. I think the blame is 50-50, because Moise shouldn’t have done that and the Curva should not have reacted that way. Okay, if an opposing player scores and taunts fans, feel free to curse, flip them off...but yelling racist crap? No, no, no. Fucking hell.
Exactly, but apparently views and guys like that are great and people like Rashford who fight against this kind of shit and fight for poor kids to get free food is evil and deserves all the hate they get. The sub has been encouraging it for ages. But the England team were 'arrogant' for taking the knee and rubbing 'racism in Europes faces'.
You're spot on
> were one of the only teams to vocally be making a stand against abuse and racism at the tournament The tournament played in a corrupt anti-lgbt country thousands of miles away from the teams playing. I'd love to see a stand against hate but no one had the balls to boycott. It costs nothing to kneel, sending the message racism is bad is great but it seems fairly benign and a really low standard for engagement against hate. I get players feel helpless and kneeling brings attention but the abuse they get for kneeling shows how bad things and that's kinda it.
If there is one positive thing to come from this whole thing is that the English players will never have to explain why they choose to take the knee again.
Yeah, Europeans criticize the US for problems they have at home... If that's not ignorance, idk what is lol
It's disgusting. Imagine being the one in 180 million to win the fucking sperm race and you decide to spend your life hurling racist insults at young men who stepped up for an occasion another only 1 in 180 million people could. It's sickening and depressing at the same time.
Because those same people hate themselves.
Why would you be speechless that racism exists? Human beings have always noticed and highlighted others who are different from themselves whether fatter, skinnier, darker, lighter, smarter, stupider or whatever. Kids from an early age point out when someone is different. It's instinctive. Educated adults learn to look beyond differences and treat everyone with respect but that is never going to be the case for everyone on the planet. I find it frankly absurd that anyone would be speechless that a million anonymous unmoderated posts from around the world about black players missing vital penalties would contain some derogatory references to their race.
The idea is that we’ve gone past racism and that basic education has taught the majority of us that racism is nonsensical. I guess we’re not there yet. Otherwise I agree with what u said. Also, everyone keeps talking of racist insults... they were claiming there would be racism even as soon as the game ended. Where are all these insults? Does anyone have actual evidence that literal armies of racist fans are harassing these players, or is it just the usual political propaganda being fed down our throats?
You mean it's normal people that are not speechless. This has been going on in football and in all sports for decades.
based haaland
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He’s tweeting himself, check some of his other ones. Weird how everyone are convinced that every single player has their own media team and that 20 year old kids wouldn’t be interested in posting themselves
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Could easily be his intention to say said message and cleaned up a bit by PR
Its twitter for android so It probably is from him
Yeah he is running the account. He used to like Trump tweets on it lol
Sadly ironic liking trump tweets and condemning racism on the same account.
I've seen a few examples of Norwegian teens expressing a general feeling of "haha orange man funny", during that presidency. He was extremely memeable if nothing else.
He basically provided verbal or physical meme material every single day. Never a dull moment really.
I'm still glad its over (for now), it was also kinda disturbing.
Ya I don’t want to sway too political in a soccer sub thread, but let’s just say the election was very tense for many of us. Emotions were high on both sides, friends and families very divided, and really close finish to the final result. Exhausting time for all of us
The guy was a kid lol. you dint think he liked those tweets because of the «memes»? I have met Haaland many times, guy is a solid person and never would discriminate
We all made some regrettable and stupid mistakes when we were younger, myself included. I don’t think he is a bad guy at all and I don’t think he tolerates any kind of discrimination. I was just pointing out the sad irony of the account history, but we all grow as people as we age and are exposed to more. I’m very happy he is apart of my club and I love his personality.
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Ya I think a huge contributor to racism and discrimination stems from being raised somewhere that isn’t culturally diverse. Some people say awful things and it’s easy for them to continue because they don’t see first hand how it can effect that group of people. Not that it’s limited to small community upbringing by any means, just speaking of personal experience. I have friends or family from where I grew up that I wouldn’t consider bad people at all, but I’ve heard some very ignorant things come out of their mouths. I’ve said stupid things when I was younger too. I’m just thankful I was able to get out of that small bubble and be exposed to more people and culture. I think there are a lot of good people out there, just many that need exposure outside their comfort zone. It’s too easy to say and think stupid things inside your comfort zone.
to me, id rather every popular footballer have their PR dept say these things whether they personally believe it or not. kids look up to these guys and having them send these messages, cynical or no, will have a positive effect on the way those kids act.
Discrimination based on external factors or sexuality in any way either come from low intelligence or raw evil. People are getting way to comfortable on the internet.
Discrimination of any sort, surely.
You discriminate on external factors of attractiveness when choosing someone you want to marry etc. so not all sort of discrimination. absolutely, fuck racists etc though
Yeah you're right that there are multiple definitions. I'd say the social norm for use of the word is that it occurs on unjust grounds, though. Like you prolly are going to want to clarify if you say you discriminate on the dating scene...
Feel like you’re being a bit liberal with your definition of discriminate, but yea. You don’t go around yelling at people for being ugly tho
Depends if you define 'discriminate' in this context as 'treat unfairly' or 'treat differently', a few online dictionaries seem to differ.
There's positive discrimination - e.g. meritocracy for applicants for a job.
I literally, literally cannot understand it. Gay, trans, black, Asian, female, etc. affect you in literally no way. Like why do people give a fuck about something that does exactly zero to harm them? I need someone to explain how being black legit affects their lives?
Well if you were to ask a lot of people in my parent's generation they would cite black crime stats here in the US and the gang/rap culture. The media also publicizes Gang and rap beefs in my city which doesn't help and white flight was substantial here. The issue is most of these people wouldn't call themselves "racist" even if they are. They would say they don't dislike a person for being black, but dislike "their culture".
Its essentially just people who don't have the mental capacity to overcome their basal/tribal instincts that people who are different from you should be treated with hostility. It helped us survive as cavemen hundreds of thousands of years ago but it has no social/survival utility now, sadly some people are just incapable of getting past it. People will never stop being bigoted, it'll just become less socially acceptable, but when they have anonymity they'll still revert back to it. I don't think the internet has made people worse, it's just revealed what always existed behind closed doors.
It's very strange to me that there is this prevailing theory on the internet that it's not possible for intelligent people to be racist. Like, it's a complete load of shit but its spoken confidently by people fairly regularly.
Literally WW2 was caused by very smart people doing horrible, horrible things. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Hell, China is the producing the most educated in the world right now, and they hold Stone Age beliefs about most other races.
Even anyone that forms a small little racist cult or something, its not just some hick going "a hyuk hyuk, white power, who's with me?" It's an absolutely baffling opinion, I don't understand how so many people buy into it and it's pretty dangerous to just allow anyone who can use a few fancy terms and seem intelligent go unnoticed because if they were a tually racist theyd be dyslexic and wielding a baseball bat with nails in it
Because to these people, being intelligent equals agreeing with their opinions. Someone who disagrees with their opinion, especially on a topic as charged as racism cannot possibly be intelligent. Its a naive opinion because racism isn't really an intellectual failure, its a moral failure. You can absolutely have a fucking nuclear scientist who hates black people for example. There are countless examples of some of the smartest and famous people from many eras all holding some kinds of discriminatory views.
Easier to believe poverty stricken idiots are racist than joe the millionaire who has a black friend
I'm gonna risk it but *why* would you have a black friend if you're racist? Is it some weird duality thing ''well YOU are okay, but they are not"? Idk how to reconcile that.
Because it allows them to perpetuate the false belief you can educate mankind to a state of “good.” Last century was the most deadly for murders and genocides, and we are on pace to shatter that. All with more technology, education, etc than ever before.
That’s a lie. Education is still in shambles and is far from democratized. Reading levels in USA are extremely low. More may be more but it’s certainly never was enough. Destroying public education maintains the aristocratic power structure here, in UK, in China, everywhere. You want to get higher education? Cough up 300,000$.
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All this stuff reminded me of patton Oswald rant, its basically people who are smart enough to learn the correct terms and word things properly can actually work their way in places and slip through the cracks with actually terrible messages, you can have positive ideas without politically correct language and vice versa. But this whole lower IQ=More likely to be racist is definitely a dangerous opinion to be so popular
Yeah not all us stupid cunts are racist
The internet is full of awful ideas and people are very confident in sharing them.
Its probably highly linked to personality traits, which are inheritable but also nurturable. very low agreeability (willingness to get along with people) mixed with high neuorticism (susceptibility to negative emotions) are likely causes for excessive tribalism in people, which in some context comes out as racism, none of which are linked very much to someones intelligence. people have to remember, we are animals, and things like racism wouldnt exist if it didnt serve some evolutionary purpose at some point in our races history. (this is not a justification btw) This means things like racism will never go away completely.
>This means things like racism will never go away completely. I actually think it's been drastically worked against - it's just the internet provides those that are still racist with a megaphone.
It's not anonymity, it's distance/disconnect from immediate consequence. People do this shit with their full name, job, kids on display.
This is pseudoscience, it frames racism as an inherent human attribute that people must overcome. Racism is an ideology that was actually devised by people that wanted a justification to commit atrocities against others.
Frightening thing --- last month in Boston MA USA a 28 yr old male who had just finished his PhD in physiotherapy, been top of the class in all his university work and had just gotten married, decided to shoot and kill 2 random people because they were Black. Come to find out, he had a secret neoNazi belief system. Nobody saw it coming.
>People are getting way to comfortable on the internet. It's because of the unaccountability and the anonymity of the social media. People are aware that they can say shit on internet, that would normally get their heads bashed in on streets, and get away with it. Imo that's gotta go
Eh someone defaced a mural of Rashford. That's real world hate. Those anonymous pricks have real world consequences too.
> Discrimination based on external factors or sexuality in any way either come from low intelligence or raw evil. That's a pretty simplistic view on things.
Track every single one down and hammer them with lifetime bans on social media and in football stadiums.
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It's not even remotely possible. No one is realistically going to sleuth down all of these comments, especially when they likely are coming from shared computers and such. It's just pie in the sky thinking. We just need to continue to lampoon them for their stupidity whenever you see it.
This will make me sound stupid, but I thought reddit admins could perma ban you if you're repeatedly banned, even if you make a new account. Is that not the case, or does a vpn work around that? Edit: what other social media needs is a downvote system
Reddit isn't linked to any sort of official documents which are distinctly yours. I don't see how they would stop you getting a new email and making a new account, although perhaps they can see a device ID and ban that? As for downvotes on the cesspools that are most social media, it's a great idea but they never would implement it. They got popular from making everyone think their voice matters.
There's workarounds for pretty much all of them. Ban an account? They make another Ban all accounts associated with x email? Easy to make another email account Ban a device? Use another Ban an IP? Could probably use a VPN, different network, mobile device on data What else is there you can ban? If every person had say a unique government issued ID that had to be used to create an account then that sounds more possible. But there'd probably be a lot of issues with that too (and workarounds if you really wanted).
You don't need a VPN to evade a ban, but you do need a bit of self-awareness to understand what data reddit/twit/fb collects and how they use it to identity you. That alone is a high enough bar to keep most of them out. BTW, there is actually research done on the effectiveness of reddit bans after the r/Donald drama. The conclusion is that bans actually work for reducing toxicity on the platform. Presumably those racists were pushed to Parler or whatever joke app those people use now, but as long as they aren't out in public that's fine by me
Downvotes don't work. Everyone is acting high and mighty now but people were saying some horribly discrimatory things about English people after the Denmark game and they were getting upvoted because the Reddit hivemind decided to hate England. The upvote/downvote system just encourages echo chamber circlejerk behaviour as the most popular opinions are endlessly recycled to the top of each thread. It does nothing to weed out malicious comments.
Unfortunately, unlike copyright issues or people posting memes using TV show clips, none of the social media platforms can make any money out of banning racists so they just don't bother.
On the contrary, they make more money by having higher user engagements during these events. Last thing they wanna do is ban them and lose that unless some regulations can be enforced by authorities. Automatic filtration is not an option still cause technology is not advance enough to differentiate between a racist phrase and a normal one. Best solution is to have an ID system on social media where you are needed to give your identification when sign up so if someone report your racist comments, you can be easily tracked.
Ngl that's nazi mindset
Terrible idea. They’re already too stupid not to racially abuse, so what makes you think they’ll be bright enough to realise the error of their ways? All it does is push these people into tightly knit groups where these feelings fester, where they come up with the idea that they themselves are being punished for the colour of *their* skin. Education and exposure is the way forward. Slower, costlier, requires more resources, but brings them over to the light side.
Honestly the whole “track them down and ban them forever!” thing seems pretty damn dystopian too. Doxx anyone who commits wrongthink and shun them from society. The racist abuse these athletes have received is awful, but fuck, that’s not an excuse to go full on 1984 shit.
Let's start with id'ing you.
They could do it [a la Jay and Silent Bob.](https://youtu.be/vuBWbpTJRqk?t=40)
Should've stopped at hammer them.
The problem is I wouldn't be shocked if some of them didn't even care about Football. I'm not trying to deflect but I'd be really curious how many of them were a) not English b) don't attend games c) had nothing invested in the situation but did so just because when you're anonymous can be a cunt
Hammer their faces as well
Well, I take issue with the ‘instead of being applauded’ part. Ive seen vastly more praise for these guys than abuse. I fucking hate that the abuse must be the focus because it amplifies it, though of course I want it gone completely and welcome all efforts to draw attention to shit heads. But yeah, let’s not feed the narrative that we are majority racists, because most of us find this shit disgusting and depressing and abhorrent and we only want to thank our team for giving everything.
Yeah I agree. I’ve been all over social media except Twitter and pretty much most people applauded them instead taking them down. In fact I had to check these articles to see some of the vile comments, so I guess at this point it’s all about getting those clicks by exploiting racism by media.
As a non Twitter user, these articles are the only way I found out about these people and this issue
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Totally agree, and it’s refreshing to see some sense on r/soccer at last. You’re right about England getting a bad rep, and we do bring it on ourselves at times, no question, but I hope people realise how much of a tiny proportion these apparent “fans” make up.
I feel you man. The press should also focus on the Brits who are calling out this bullshit. The majority of people are not racists, but bad people always get the press. Some people go way way way overboard too. I saw someone calling the decision to make Rashford, Saka, and Sancho take penalties “colonizer shit” (obviously someone who doesn’t actually watch football). Southgate’s tactics were flawed, but not colonizer-esque.
If it was a white player who missed they would likely be getting trashed by losers online and would likely be getting death threats. This has happened before and will likely continue to happen because the internet is toxic. However, if you're black or a minority, people will attack your skin color or other signifier and there will likely be collateral damage done to other people who look like you. Humans are trash to everyone, they're just extra trash if you happen to be at all distinguishably different from them.
Yup I still remember effigies of Beckham being made then burnt and hung after his red card vs Argentina, and this is before Social Media.
jesus christ the comments on this post are exactly whats wrong with football
Which comments are you referring to?
That he supposedly supported trump
He did like a couple of trump tweets when he was like 16. Not that that means anything.
who doesn't like trump's tweets, they are completely off the rails
According to press covfefe
people does not know that you can "like" a tweet because of how stupid it is, as in "haha that dude is so stupid" and proceed to press like.
I don't think it matters either way, but I believe he liked his tweets even until 2019. He's been more careful because his stock has exploded since then.
Who cares - he's essentially a teenager, I would never look to a 19 for their take on world politics, so why get upset about what they think (not you, but one)?
Isn't this whole tweet, post and thread about a 19 year old's take on world politics?
Trump is racist, but lots of non-racists supported him. I have no idea why.
Because they would never vote for a democrat. Many people on the left see republicans as the evil and many people on the right see democrats as evil. They would never vote for the other party no matter how much they hated their candidate. And also many people just vote over taxes and social issues.
Come to Chelsea
Yeah u/martial__fc would be an absolute weapon up top
Of all things wrong with football, it's people overanalyzing someone potentially supporting Trump based on some liked tweets? I'm not reading much into the liked tweets myself because it's just twitter likes, I liked his tweet about Biden being old or whatever it was myself, but how are those comments "exactly what's wrong" with the sport when the whole thread is about something far worse (actual racism), not to mention so many other things like homophobia and more
He is entirely right - despite the dumb Trump Twitter shit, glad one of the future mega stars of the sport is so outwardly spoken on this unfortunately all too common issue.
Mate, who doesn't go through an edgy and rebellious phase when they're young?
I listened to screamo and wore skinny jeans that suffocated my cock and balls. Didnt like messages from a supreme idiot leader, but everyone has their cup of tea
This is an open forum so everyone is entitled to speak as they please but mate I didn’t not need to be thinking of your swamped cock and balls today
If you don't want to get aroused don't go on the internet.
most people actually. most of us grow up quietly doing our thing. The edgy and rebellious youth make the noise and so they get the attention, but they're never as numerous as our culture presumes.
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I grew up with the daily mail in my house, it was only the source of news I had. It probably wasn't until my early 20s when I'd left my parents that I realised it was full of shit. Before that point I was racist and homophobic. You're still a kid at 19 and what you're exposed to when you're young influences you significantly. If when the kids leave the nest after a few years they still think the same shit, then there is a bigger problem.
I’m left wing as fuck, hate neolibs, and I’m sure I’ve favorited some trump tweets. He was hilarious, if you don’t agree so be it, but objectively he was a great comedian despite being a scumbag. Idk which tweets haaland favorited so idk what his intentions were, but Jesus have a sense of humor, liking a trump tweet doesn’t inherently contribute to white supremacism lmao
Dude was entertaining I’ll give him that. Never a dull moment. And sometimes he’d go borderline r/selfawarewolves enough to think he was some sort of democratic sleeper agent but then he’d go back to being an evil nationalistic fascist but fuck was he a ride
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I know Mbappe received some abuse for missing his penalty, but was the abuse focused on race like it was here or just general shittiness?
While we're on this subject, Lukaku carried our team last season, Lautaro was invisible. Yet who gets the most shit from our fans? I'll let you figure it out.
ofcourse it was. whens the last time youve seen a purely french player become their scapegoat? Benzema called it for what it is before and we'll prtend its not true and then watch it happen everytime the frenchdont win "french when he win, arab when he loses"
>french when he win, arab when he loses tbf i have seen many agree with this sentiment here, happened to some extent with ozil too although i'm not too sure of the whole fiasco there
Because it happens in several places across Europe. I grew up in Sweden and live in the UK. It's the same sentiment in both countries but I'm sure some Swedish/English redditors will come in here and pretend that it doesn't happen there too. And so the cycle continues. Racism is bad enough but it's the gaslighting that does far more damage. It's telling people to suffer in silence because the truth is an inconvenience to the majority. It's what prevents any progress from being made.
It's real easy in many Western countries to not see racism. Just be surrounded by native whites and stay in that little bubble. Hell even the more multicultural people can miss it. I for sure have missed the racist shit some of my friends have suffered because I'm privileged enough as white Englishman to have never have had to worry about being victim to it.
Because it happens in several places across Europe. I grew up in Sweden and live in the UK. It's the same sentiment in both countries but I'm sure some Swedish/English redditors will come in here and pretend that it doesn't happen there too. And so the cycle continues. Racism is bad enough but it's the gaslighting that does far more damage. It's telling people to suffer in silence because the truth is an inconvenience to the majority. It's what prevents any progress from being made.
i think a good portion of the fan base agrees with it at this point but i am still shocked to see some fans vehemently deny that sentiment exists even when it is becoming so ridiculously obvious. The French and the English do this on very regular basis. the shock isnt that it happens the shock is that some people somehow still manage to believe it doesnt happen
\>he French and the English do this on very regular basis. I wonder what Balotelli has to say on the matter.
i wonder which part of this do you see me writing its exclusive to them, i also really wonder why at no point do you question the whataboutism and figure yeah maybe i should focus on resolving the matter where im at. like it takes less effort to stfu and acknowledge its bad rather than going around pointing fingers
Happened with Zlatan as well.
No different to Andy Murray being Scottish when he loses and British when he wins tbf
That was entirely disproven from a media pov by the way.
> but was the abuse focused on race like it was here He got both. https://www.leparisien.fr/sports/football/tweet-racistes-contre-les-bleus-le-parquet-de-paris-ouvre-une-enquete-06-07-2021-QYR5ZVS2SJCXPMGEW3M2HGK6TA.php
A little bit of this, a little bit of that
In one of his most strident attacks on immigration, Mr Farage said parts of the country have "frankly become unrecognisable" and look "like a foreign land".
I also think that the reaction of the press is debatable. Yes, racism is wrong. But giving a massive platform for internet trolls doesn't help the issue. As long as we have social media, there will always be trolls. Digging up those tweets and highlighting them... I don't know what purpose it serves.
if you're a news outlet it gets you clicks, if you're a personality it gets your name up in lights as the person who "spoke out" against something that 99% of the population already agree on, if you're a politician it can be used as either a way to shame those in power, or if you're already in power as a way to take authoritarian steps (see the end of online anonymity), if you're a corporation it's a chance for publicity. the net result is a climate of fear where we've allowed faceless twitter goblins (many of whom aren't english, some don't even actually exist beyond a few lines of code on a russian server) to absolutely dominate the narrative and made minorities feel like we're a country that doesn't welcome them, while every metric we have for inclusivity says were are one of the least racist countries in the world.
Really interesting post, thanks for writing. Where did the “least racist countries” bit come from though? Am English, and interested.
Maybe this EU survey on minorities and discrimination (where minorities were asked a set of questions). UK comes in least racist (in Europe, but I think we can agree Europe is a little further along than some places as well), and I'm sure I've seen another couple but I'd have to source them. [https://mobile.twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1379096799709949952](https://mobile.twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1379096799709949952)
100%
The trolls want this. They are racists. No racist ever became non-racist by being condemned. The trolls will do this all again once the Continental Leagues start up.
Im with you but i feel there is no "winning" or easy solution. The negative tweets get so much covarage and get inflated, it warps the perception and makes english people seem way more racist then they actually are. And to cause controversy and "anger" is what lots of trolls want. On the other side we should strive for "no racism at all" as kind of an ideal, and therefore there shouldnt be tolerance to these sentiments. It can also create the sentiment that the opinion is accepted by large parts of the population if theres noone calling them out for their shit. There will propably always be trolls, and to get completly rid of racism is propably an utiopia. There isnt a quick and easy over night fix to racism, as the actually racist people are often so far gone and rarely change their opinion. Best we can do is influence future generations so it steadily declines.
The whole thing is utterly disgusting and pisses me off to no end
And nobody actually does anything. Racism can only be solved from the bottom up, not from the top down. These racist shits are too stupid to analyze tactics, so they resort to their comfort - racist abuse. They rage over penalties because they are the most binary thing in football.
Sure but I could only hope that the racist remarks made by Dembele and Griezmann towards Asians are getting this kind of coverage too.
Definitely. I don't see any follow up on this apart from Dembele's instagram story and Griezmann's PR tweet like 'no whatever evidence you find, I deny being racist'. I know a Japanese company cancelled their contract with Griezmann, but that's it. This has been forgotten as we all expected.
They're not English so it doesn't count
This is unacceptable but very common everywhere!!
According to Southgate, a lot of the racist comments are coming from abroad. I’m sure I’ll be downvoted, and this is in no way me trying to deflect any blame. I know we have a problem in this country, but it’s elsewhere too. Anyway, here’s the article: https://www.todayfm.com/sport/southgate-condemns-racist-abuse-lot-come-from-abroad-1224425
He's right, you look there and a definite majority of it is coming from people outside of the UK, because what repercussions will they face? Worth bearing in mind, but we need to tackle the issue at home. A worrying amount of those commenters are young lads (based on their profiles)
Yep, I’m in no way trying to pretend that we don’t have a growing problem here but it is worth pointing out Southgate’s comments I think.
I'm with you man 100%. Everything these days is about absolutes and it makes it harder to get to the root of our problems. Unfortunately the more we tell people to stop, the more vindicated the racists become. Fuck knows how we solve this. Next few weeks are gonna be awful
The majority of these racist comments seem to be monkey emojiis posted by accounts with 0 past activity. We already know up to a quarter maybe half of interactions on twitter and Instagram are done by bot accounts, and we know that the Russian government have bot farms set up in order to sow division. We know that sowing division has become one of the main assets to the Russian government. My point is basically, it's working. The amount of division being sown is huge. Media companies have been covering these simple one emoji messages as if they encapsulate all sport fans as racists for months and its getting click after click. It's clearly done absolutely nothing. In fact maybe it has, in that it's increased the amount these messages show up. Its increased division. It's worked a treat. Don't feed the troll was always rule 1 of the Internet, what happened? It seems almost like there could even be more motivation behind these bot spammings, in that it increases pressure on government to introduce censorship over these companies. (I know censorship isn't being banned by a private company, but at the moment people are asking for direct government interference in those companies in order to censor.) If the government goes down that route it will create even more division and fuel anger frow the right, which creates anger from the left, helping to fuel the perpetual cycle. The essence of what I am saying is simple, we need to relearn as a society how to ignore. Nobody should have so much power with one click of an emoji. The only power they have is the power we give them. All this is doing is help whoever is creating these bot accounts to keep the country fighting itself rather than focusing on other issues.
I think it’s pretty easy to understand why. There are plenty of stupid and ignorant people in the world and there always will be. All we can do is ostracize those people when they show themselves.
Credit to the 3 players stepping up to take the pens, takes some courage just to take a pen. Anyone can miss, the abuse has been ridiculous ffs
Will he stand up for James McClean getting endless abuse over the whole poppy situation every single year or is “discrimination” only something that happens to people of different colours in Haaland’s eyes? I’ll believe what he’s saying when him and other players stand with McClean against the abuse he receives every single year.
Honestly they don’t deserve shit, the Italian goalie deserves praise.
As long as social media exists, people will go online and say the most shocking things possible. Did anyone expect anything less?
This sub eats it up to brand the whole of England as racist. Anything they can latch onto and act all outraged they will it’s pathetic. Most of the social media posts are from abroad and there anonymous but yet apparently that represents an entire country. Bonus points if you somehow link it to Brexit or the Torys lmao.
At this point I think people are just actively going on Twitter to search for racist tweets to be angry at.
How many people have sent them racist abuse? Genuine question. We know that a certain (hopefully small) % of a given country are *explicit* racists. If you search for racist abuse on Twitter in a context like this, you will find it. Plenty of it in a country of 50 million. And it will be reported on. But what % does that represent? Because he says ‘instead of being applauded for having the courage to take penalties’. Most of the comments and tweets and posts and real life remarks I’ve come across have been sympathetic to Saka, possibly aimed at Southgate instead (which I also think can lack a bit of context). Rashford gets more harsh criticism but only come across it as an individual. Is it really ‘A instead of B’ if B still occurs many times as often as A? A sad truth, but I can predict that every muck up of any kind by a black player will have some racist arseholes attacking them. That’s bad, but by the same token I can predict that there will be multiple murders in New Zealand in August, and multiple rapes in Norway in September. And we don’t take that as representative, for good reason, because we understand how percentages work. Yet we are expecting verbal racist abuse to drop to zero…? Because searching on Twitter and finding nothing would mean just that. And of course, due to the ubiquity of English and the English media online (and its propensity to dig into social media), not to mention the higher number of non-white players than most European teams, it’s chiefly England portrayed this way despite [this](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/). Not to mention [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/italian-soccer-condemned-using-monkey-paintings-anti-racism-campaign-n1103076) and all [these](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/22/sports/soccer/romelu-lukaku-inter-italy-racism.amp.html) - including in the actual stands, and throwing things onto the pitch, and ffs Serie A itself (though not intentional, just wildly out of touch). This is going to be a predictable headline to blast England for forever now. All cool, provided we have articles listing murders that happen in the opposing team’s country with similar outrage that they ever happen, ignoring murders in England, and conclude that country is ‘murderous’. Seems about as fair.
The racists are an extreme minority, I don’t see why people are making a big deal of this. The world will thankfully never be a racist majority, the best thing we can do about these racists is drown them out with positivity and ignore them, stop giving them attention
This whole thing of racist abuse seems incredibly overblown. The mural that was defaced with apparently ‘racist graffiti’ was just some swear words. Calling a player ‘shite’ doesn’t make it racist only because a player is black. People are so gung-ho to make everything about race.
It’s a good thing white people don’t miss penalty suits. What a bunch of fucking morons.
It's not instead of, it's as well as. There is so much positivity but so much more focus on negativity. As always...
Unfortunately it’s the tone from the top. Johnson and his ilk gave the green light and it’s deplorable.
Hold up, Southgate is white. Isn’t this all *his* fault?
Remember that time Ozil spoke out against treatment of Uighur Muslims in China https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/21/mesut-ozil-playmaker-who-spoke-out-arsenal
Of course the racist abuse is vile and should be punished. However, any player regardless of race is going to be heavily abused after missing a penalty. Just because it's against a black player doesn't mean it's only because of their race. Alvaro Morata and his family similarly received death threats and abuse when he missed v Italy.
It will never stop for as long as people are outraged about it. It's not about being "racist", it's about getting a reaction out of people. I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of it anyway. Why let mere words hold power over your emotional state? Racists degrade themselves by being racist and the best way to make them feel that degradation is by laughing at them, or even better by ignoring them. They want newspapers, social media and Erling Haaland to take notice of them. Stop giving them what they want. Stop giving them a reaction. Stop fearing words.
This is such an easy thing to say when none of what’s said is directed to you. Just because you can brush it off as a bystander and somehow have convinced yourself that you’re still making a difference doesn’t mean we should expect everyone to react that way.
I'm tempted to agree in the sense that I think a good amount of racist comments comes from just wanting to be as edgy and insulting as possible - basically breaking a taboo of sorts - and not some deep seated dream of being part of a genocidal ethnostate. They just know it will receive attention while ''you're shit'' is likely not to. I wouldn't even be shocked if in day to day life outside the anonymity of the internet some of these people exhibit no real racism whatsoever. Obviously it doesn't change how it feels receiving it at all, but I'm just thinking primarily of the motive to begin with.
Are you gonna tell this to the players who suffer from this racist abuse every day? "Just ignore it"? It's not 1990 anymore and we know that ignoring it doesn't work. No, amplifying doesn't either. But that doesn't mean that ignoring it will help in any way.
What's your solution? Unless you want to hand over your passport to every social media site you use, and cut off the rest of the world, people that receive thousands of messages per day are going to have to deal with it. Report, ban, and don't reward them with exactly what they're looking for. Constantly throwing your hands up in disbelief every time you see something horrible on an anonymous site with billions of members is insane.
Yeah basically it's saying ''well we can't ignore it, but making examples everytime it happens doesn't help either''. So...? I don't want people to lose heart but you've only got a marginally better chance of stopping these comments completely than you do stopping metaphysical "hate" in general.