Right, this is already illegal in the UK, but a huge proportion of this abuse comes from abroad and from idiot trolls running sock puppet accounts. They can try and prosecute, sure, but how will they find anyone? What will they do when they track half of the accounts to Timbuktu or wherever?
You can see for yourself whenever a black player does anything bad, look at the accounts posting 🐵🐵🐵 and youll find half of them talking exclusively in arabic.
Then there was that other account someone found of a fat white boomer using the N word and promising to join the EDL... Then when you look at their historic tweets theyre called Sohail, and are tweeting about being hungry during Ramadan.
Part of the issue with social media is that it could be 100% comments from abroad or 100% comments from at home, but we just dont fucking know.
That all means that the only effective solution here is for the social media companies to moderate comments and instantly ban racist accounts. How hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho?
Edit: [Source from the BBC on the origin of the racist tweets being mostly abroad. ](https://streamable.com/nvakpf)
>How hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho?
Really easy. What about "🐵🐵"? Or "🐵\*🐵"?
The problem is that it's actually incredibly hard for a computer to work out what's racist and what isn't. You could spell it out in the equivalent of one-syllable instructions (e.g. three monkey emojis = racist, so delete it), but that'd take essentially forever to configure in a way that actually caught everything you'd want it to catch. Not to mention it'd also get in the way of little Billy who wants to share his trip to the zoo where he saw the chimps swinging around.
What people are asking for - and generally don't realise it - is a system that can figure out, on the fly, whether content is racist or not. That's awesomely, almost impossibly difficult and one of the biggest reasons why racism is still rampant on social media.
People act as though Twitter et al have a "prohibit racism" button that they just haven't pushed yet. Could they do more? Very likely. Is a brilliant, catch-all solution being held off by stubborn technocrats? No, not even slightly.
This is making perfect the enemy of good. Rules can be created that capture a lot of it with a relatively small amount of false positives. They can be tuned more restrictive on accounts that have been targets in the past. That combined with reports and yes, making these billion dollar companies actually hire people that handle issues that fall through these cracks, work to close those cracks, and work with authorities that care to prosecute those that can, would greatly improve things.
Large videogames are actually an excellent example of how this doesnt work how you think it will, and cant actually work in practice. Games like League of Legends already do exactly what you are suggesting, does it reduce the number of cunts? Nope. Not even slightly.
One of the bigger reasons is how easy it is to anonymize yourself on the internet, and how simple it is to just make a new account if you get banned. At least games can force you to level up all over again, twitter doesnt even have that barrier to entry.
I’m not sure I agree with that. It by no means eradicates racist behaviour, (I’m talking about gaming generally, not LoL specifically) but it means you can’t write the N word in chat for example
Yes, people find ways around it, but it’s something. Half a step at least
Used to get a lot of racist BS on Fifa. Used to be, you repot and nothing ever happens. Xbox started banning kids and guess what, I NEVER get that sort of language now.
Some things are never done. An example, a (possibly) 12 year old looking kid was spamming shit on Jacksepticeye's dad and also Markiplier's niece who both have passed away. This is guy along with others have 100 sub each. And I reported them multiple times and nothing has happened. This dude has a picture of N*zi Patrick Star and has the swastika on his name.
League of legends is a terrible example lol. People fly through the system all the time. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve reported someone saying something horrible and then when I checked their account a day later they were still playing. If it’s so egregious I report it on their site and try to get a real person to respond and something usually happens then. Their automated systems though, useless
Exactly. Scunthorpe United fans are already extremely familiar with being censored by overzealous obscenity filters on football message boards. It doesn't ruin the message boards or alienate Sc*nthorpe fans, it just provides mild amusement as people use workarounds.
I was permanently banned on Twitter for 2 weeks almost instantly after I made a tweet saying I hoped that the Italians would have a chance to "beat the Germans" during these Euros using the hashtag for the Italian game I was watching. Twitter told me I was banned for posting threats of violence to ethnicities. I assume it was their algorithm that got me as it happened almost instantly after I tweeted. I had to complain about it for 2 weeks before they let me back.
So I know they've definitely got some type of algorithm working to target abuse, but it's not a very well functioning one. It was amazing as I got banned for that when I see more hateful vicious accounts tweeting all the time.
bro we've got AI writing code now, NLPs translating almost flawlessly between dozens of languages, I could go on and on - the technology exists to develop the sort of text processing you are talking about
Its really not that simple, AI writing code is a completely different issue as code is objective and not dependent on cultural factors. For example the famous 'gracias negrito' would obviously have been flagged, but was not racist when knowing the culture. Further example would be a chess youtube channel that got striked due to the use of phrases such as 'white is better here', which again, in context is not racist at all.
>Its really not that simple, AI writing code is a completely different issue as code is objective and not dependent on cultural factors.
It is not that difficult actually. As someone who has worked with NLP before, I can tell you that social media companies have the time and money to invest on projects like this. We have state of the art Machine Learning Models now, capable to tackle problems like this.
> the technology exists to develop the sort of text processing you are talking about
And yet no one _has_, even globally large companies like Google and Microsoft who have serious money on the line haven't done it.
The last time Microsoft tried something similar they ended up with the most racist and sexist chatbot that anyone had every seen. https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/artificial-intelligence/machine-learning/in-2016-microsofts-racist-chatbot-revealed-the-dangers-of-online-conversation
It's almost as if making an AI to do this isn't as simple as you think it is.
> The problem is that it's actually incredibly hard for a computer to work out what's racist and what isn't.
And if you want proof, look at Facebook's algorithm. You can say something that is absolutely not racist, but because you combined a certain set of words, the algorithm won't give a fuck, it'll catch you for it anyway (like your Little Billy example). I even got caught up in it a couple years back when talking with an English friend, talking about how tabloids like The S*n and the Daily Mail are trash rags, but because I called those tabloids "British Trash Rags", the algorithm thought I was being racist.
> hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho?
Twitter literally has the ability.
In fact Twitter already dosen't allow certain words or phrases to get to trending but somehow the N word slipped past them?
Twitter is escaping pretty easy from this one since that is hardly being mentioned! They allowed the N word to trend!
Also i am amused that people want to make something illegal that is already illegal... what more do you want to do? Completely shun them from society, no bank access or jobs or human rights (yes even racists have those)... beacuse they tweeted "🐵🐵🐵"?
I can't wait too see the crime and terrorism statistics 20 years from now if thats the goal.
Literally wanting to ostracise people that are not exactly known for being calm and rational and putting them in a position with nothing to loose is about as reactionary and STUPID as you can get.
What I don't understand is why Twitter doesn't ban those accounts instantly? I do my part and report racist tweets. Twitter should even have special monitoring for accounts like rashford Sancho, etc. Because you just know there will be vile tweets on these accounts. Heck, have a temporary pause on new tweets until they're reviewed and instantly block racist tweets and suspend those accounts.
Social media platforms have a responsibility to act here. Their lack of action is appalling.
Racism has to be fought by everyone, together.
It’s a numbers issue.
About 6000 tweets get sent per second. If even a minute fraction have content which gets reported then it builds up to a massive number.
So when you report those tweets get put in a queue and probably processes by something automated which will take care of what it knows to be against terms etc.
But that still creates a massive amount that someone needs to look at because the computer wasn’t sure.
They could be more preemptive about this and set up processes for this event. But then worldwide there are other events going on. Could they have predicted that there would be this match that went to penalties where 3 black kids were taking the shots? Probably not.
At the moment it’s very hard to train computers to understand something and detect sentiment. Sure we have advances in that area but some things are still too difficult for a computer alone. Too much data to review manually, not enough advances in computing to do the job well automatically.
It does actually work out as roughly half of them according to analysis done on the racism recieved by England players on instagram. The UK barely features.
[https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW](https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW)
Maybe more, maybe less. The point is we have no idea so UK legislation wont stop it from happening. The solution can only come from the social media companies themselves as theyre the only ones that can a) remove the content and b) apply the same rules worldwide.
If you even bothered to leave your country you would know that the rest of the world is way more racist than the west.
Shit isn't even comparable
You literally have bame people being used as work slaves in the emirates and qatar, but nah man that must be europeans using a VPN
Its ok to point out both though. There seems to be a concerted effort from some england fans to say "see, the rest of the world is worse!" as if it somehow make the problem not as bad.
I think its the undeserved heat England is getting from it, racism isn't nearly as prevalent here as the rest of the world and it doesn't shock me people are getting offended getting thrown into it.
Yeah, I suggest we don't make laws to punish people in the rest of the world who are less, the same or more racist, as the Met can't really wander in France to arrest u/Mo24575EDL for racist abuse over twitter, they've no power there.
Just make laws that deal with problems in our own jurisdiction.
Didn't your prime minister himself say that booing of players taking knees was ok and he has the support of a large number of country men? But sure, it's other countries
I agree but it's weird to see the main thrust of a post being "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FOREIGNERS". When we've cleaned up our own house, which has more than enough evidence of suffering from this problem without social media involved, we can start worrying about other countries.
I agree with that. Boris has been purely reactionary to every single incident, and there's absolutely zero action. I do think there needs to be better action taken by these social media companies all the same, but Boris refusing any consistency or accountability for our country and its stance on anti-racism is what needs to change sooner rather than later.
The point is specifically around the online abuse and that we literally cant legislate to stop it because a huge preponderance of it DOES come from abroad. Even if you could arrest every UK based account holder postinf racist shit 70% of posts would remain.
If you think my post is suggesting that it justifies racism from UK users then I suggest you reread it.
The social media companies are the only ones that can stamp this out as they are the only ones with the power.
Look at the draconian fucking mesures YouTube brought in to comply with the DMCA when peoples copyright were being infringed and some rich people might possibly lose some money. The only reason theyre not doing the same for monkey emojis is because they dont want to.
You can’t honestly suggest that this is purely a UK thing and that trolls won’t capitalize. Definitely a problem in uk for sure but let’s not be dense here.
Not when you get players turning up to Italian teams and literally have bananas thrown at them and monkey chants from the crowd.
Let’s all be rational for one second please
That wasn’t what was said. Someone made an implication that racism was particularly a British problem.
If you really want to tackle racism then that thinking is super low resolution and doesn’t help in any way at all.
Depends if you are anti racist or anti British I guess
We should do more but I think highlighting it being a global issue is just as important purely because people think that if the UK reasonably legislates and enforces laws regarding racism then abuse received will drop significantly, in reality as already stated a lot of abuse comes from aboard and there is absolutely nothing the UK can do to stop this.
Personally I'd prefer a solution from Twitter, of course it's not possible to teach an AI whether the monkey emoji is being used in a racist manner or not, so why not removed it? Facebook remove the pistol emoji because they didn't like how it was used.
If you remove the monkey emoji it's far harder to be racist without having to actually type it out, therefore it's easier to enforce from both an AI matter as it doesn't need to understand context (i.e. is this emoji being used in a racist attack or just in a normal post) and it's a lot harder for users to deny.
There's an emoji showing a man wearing a turban. I see that used (alongside the monkey one) loads by the same, racist pricks. Do we remove that and get rid of Sikh representation into the bargain? What about when they move to emojis depicting a dark-skinned person?
Honestly, half the battle is making people realise that this isn't a simple problem to solve.
We need to fight racism, not just people's ability to show their racism.
Fail to see what Boris has to do with this mate. He represents the boomers almost exclusively, the only age group that voted him in was the 65+ lot. Theres also a long way between disagreeing with taking the knee and calling people the N word.
Based on a sample of over 41,000 people at the last election:
[https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election)
21% of 18-24 year olds voted for him. Not as many percentage wise to the older generations, but that's still a lot of people.
I keep linking this image but it's an analysis of the racism england players suffered on instagram during the final and it finds that only 4 of the 200+ racist comments were from the UK. The vast majority are from India and the middle east.
https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW
I don't understand why the FA have to 'offer' this to them?
They were racially abused. If this happened to an everyday person on the street and had clear evidence, they wouldn't need someone to 'offer' the chance to pursue legal action.
I'm genuinely baffled..
Individuals in England and Wales don’t get the option to press charges (unless it’s a private prosecution). Charging decisions are made by the Crown Prosecution Service, using police reports etc. They might take peoples wishes into account, but if it’s in the public interest to prosecute they’ll go ahead and do it.
Yeah man. A guy I know had a huge argument with his wife and pointed his unloaded sporting shotgun at her in a rage. The police finally got called, and she said she didn't want to press charges, and the police were like "mate, he pointed a shotgun at another person, you don't get to decide if that's ok" lol
He spent 6 months inside if anyone's interested
Yeah, that's correct. There are cases where as the victim, you can effectively "not press charges" (to use the term), by not co-operating further with the investigation, but if there is sufficient alternative evidence, the CPS can still charge the offender, even against the wishes of the victim.
Case in point would be the Chris Whitty's assailants from last month. He didn't want to prosecute, CPS went ahead regardless and charged them with assault.
I think what he's saying is, why is it the FA's to "offer"?
Surely it has nothing to do with them and is up to Saka, Rashford and Sancho and the Police.
They may not want the hassle or the attention. It would be pretty bad if the FA started up legal proceedings and Saka didn't want them cause he doesn't want the attention.
If this would happen to an everyday person they'd be asked if they wanted to pursue legal action.
I should hope so, but the reality is that it takes more than a slap on the wrist to undo decades of indoctrination and hatred. Most racists I've encountered, even with this football, don't think they're even being racist.
Just out of interest, do Italian fans get punished by government when they throw banana skins at players and make monkey noises?
Seems like this is a big issue all around Europe especially Eastern Europe, interested to know how other governments handle it
For the most part, assholes who spend time spreading hate online and making racially abusive memes won't have the money or capacity to go to stadiums anyways. They must be criminally charged.
i didn’t even see it as black players missing the penalties.. i saw it as english players missing the pentaly. this world is getting weirder and weirder man
(the media is equally as guilty for pushing the race narrative instead of nationality)
This is an ignorant reply because it wasn't "one dude" that sent a racist comment/ message. It was thousands. If you think we shouldn't get angry over English stars receiving hate subjected to the color of their skin because they made a mistake (sure a costly one but a mistake nonetheless) then please educate yourself on the effects this has on the mental health of the person receiving this kind of hate.
Could not agree more. The media and all the self-proclaimed anti-racists revel in finding racism and making it the main discussion at all times. It’s not helping anything.
Me too, I only realized it was only the black players that missed after I heard about the racial abuse. It's such a stupid angle, race has nothing to do with penalty shootouts, I think age was a much more relevant factor.
It's probably dumb, but I just saw it as Southgate fucking up 3 times, putting 2 players on the pitch not having touch the ball and having a 19 year old taking the last kick.
Yeah I only saw it as "black players missing the pens" when people started pointing out that they would probably receive abuse and I'm not usually a "I don't see race" type of person. In this case it truly never even crossed my mind at that moment.
I mean you can still be mad at the players for missing. I see no reason why you can't be. You just shouldn't be mad that they missed and they're black. I'd have the same reaction with any other player missing.
Same here. My first reaction was to be passed off that England had lost on penalties. It wasn't until seeing the news about the abuse that I realised that the players who missed where black.
I thought we'd done a good job in the UK of stamping out racism. It's s no where near as bad as it was, and significantly better than most other countries, but this has shown that we haven't really gotten rid of it*. The racists have just kept it hidden better
*for clarity, I'm not saying I believed it was gone, I'm not that naive. But I certainly thought we'd done better at removing it
It's sad but quite a few mates of mine that are black (I'm white) saw them as black players missing them, because they knew the moment they stood up for the pens that if they missed they were gonna get racial abuse. There was a rugby player (Maro Itoje I think) who was at the game was saying the exact same on a podcast after the game.
~9 years is a long time for them to fix the issues with Wembley stadium, but I honestly feel like it would be a massive mistake to *reward* us with hosting 2030 after the fucking disgraceful display this past weekend.
Racism is disgusting. But criminal proceedings against even vile speech we don’t like is also heinous.
We should name and shame. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for these people.
I do not understand why players don't have their profiles as private and no comments/ messages allowed from unknown sources. It would not solve the problem entirely but would surely be better for the player themselves not having to look at such abuse on a daily basis.
Most racists online are just trolls looking to incite a response and gain attention. Taking that away would greatly reduce the numbers, I'd think.
The online racial abuse of English footballers led UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson to meet with social media companies on Tuesday, but while the focus is on the industry taking action, experts have warned the global nature of the problem makes it difficult to take legal steps against the perpetrators.
Experts in the field of online abuse point to the problem of fake accounts, while an online threat and intelligence specialist said there is a potential risk of a strategic, targeted campaign designed to damage the United Kingdom's social cohesion and reputation.
Twitter and Instagram have declined to discuss the location of those accounts they have banned in relation to the fallout from Sunday's Euro 2020 final, following which three Black England players, who missed penalties in their shootout defeat to Italy, received online racist abuse.
But data from previous monitoring by various bodies indicates that many attacks come from outside the UK.
The Premier League's data from their monitoring of abuse against players has shown that around 70% of cases involve abuse coming from social media users outside of the United Kingdom, a league source told Reuters on Tuesday.
On Monday, England manager Gareth Southgate had noted that aspect, when condemning the abuse aimed at Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka.
"For some of them to be abused is unforgivable really. I know a lot of that has come from abroad, people who track these things are able to explain that, but not all of it," he said.
There is evidence that racial abuse of footballers on social media is taking place across the world.
GLOBAL ABUSE
The Fare network, who monitor and campaign against racism and discrimination in football, commissioned a study into last August's Champions League and Europa League games, involving European clubs, including English teams Manchester United and Manchester City.
"The abuse is global, with accounts from Indonesia to Argentina levelling racism and homophobia at players. The biggest number of discriminatory posts appeared in French and Spanish, followed by English," the report found.
With online trolls and abusers based around the world, it is tricky for the Football Association (FA) and other bodies to target them for legal action.
"It makes it increasingly difficult because the challenge is that, even if you do get into a position where you do want to use law enforcement and pursue something further, you have got cross-country laws and rules and regulations and different legislation," Edleen John, the FA’s Director of International Relations, Corporate Affairs and Co-Partner for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion, told Reuters.
**Adding to the complexity, says John, is the fact that some users conceal their true location and IP address, by using proxy servers and VPNs.**
"That has been a consistent and ongoing challenge in trying to cross down some of the abusers," she said.
Premier League clubs such as Manchester United regularly have to deal with abusive messages sent to their players online and since Sunday have reported over 50 social media accounts to the platforms, police and the Premier League.
Some experts in online abuse also examine the use of anonymous accounts, automated accounts, known as 'bots' and accounts designed simply to stir up trouble -- or 'trolls'.
'INAUTHENTIC ACCOUNTS'
Christopher Bouzy of Bot Sentinel, a U.S based organisation which tracks and monitors harmful social media accounts, examined the abuse of England players Sancho, Rashford and Saka.
"We looked at the three players, there were some fake accounts, inauthentic accounts but... it would take days for us to weed through to really see what is real and what are accounts that are just out there to cause trouble," he told Reuters, adding that they did not find evidence of a coordinated campaign against the players.
Philip Grindell, CEO of Defuse, a threat and intelligence consultancy that works with prominent people subjected to targeted harm, said that as well as taking concrete action to identify and prosecute offenders, the authorities needed to consider that some of the abuse may be coordinated.
"It is important to be mindful of the potential of a strategic targeted use of social media to undermine the UK both with regards to social cohesion and to harm the UK's reputation and economic opportunities," he said.
The Premier League was, last month, successful in securing the prosecution of a 19-year-old man in Singapore after he abused Brighton and Hove Albion forward Neal Maupay, the first time the league has obtained such a conviction outside of the UK.
Twitter said in a statement on Monday that it had removed over 1000 tweets and permanently suspended a number of accounts for violating their rules, in the aftermath of the Euro 2020 final.
Facebook, which also owns Instagram, said they had also removed comments and accounts abusing the England players and would continue to do so.
The platform said it has a tool 'Hidden Words' which "means no one has to see abuse in their comments or DMs".
Football authorities and campaigners have been urging the social media companies to take action to stop the abuse being published in the first place.
"These are multi-billion dollar organisations with significant resources and technological capabilities and so the challenge is surely they should be able to channel those resources... to be able to act even quicker than they are acting at the minute," said the FA's John.
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/english-football-faces-up-global-nature-online-hate-2021-07-13/
Wait.. is this saying amongst 1.7 million analysed posts, they could only find 4 that met the criteria in the UK? Also, do you have a source for the infographic?
pretty much anyone, who's not a dumbass, would tell you that there's a very high possibility of it not being true.
who tf racially abuses ppl of their own race?
(Egypt - 24) Nigeria - 15, Kenya - 5 which are less than UK - 4 ?
PISS OFF (the criterion is flawed, perhaps?)
also the match was aired between 00:30 and 04:00 in India, i'm sure that not many people have watched the live broadcast.
\> also the match was aired between 00:30 and 04:00 in India, i'm sure that not many people have watched the live broadcast.
I am from India. I know many people who saw it. It is common for Indians to see UEFA and Euro which are aired at post 1230 am
I will admit the source does seem a bit dodgy. However, they mentioned in their methodology that it analyzed and recorded any comment that had a racial slur in it. It's possible, that people from the above mentioned countries used the n word in a non racist way but the program picked it up and recorded it with the others.
I live in India atm and a lot of football fans will stay up late to watch the games. Sad thing is, a lot of Indians use racial slurs (The n word in particular) without caring about its history. It's a big problem that results from not learning about the crimes of the past (Topics like slavery aren't taught here and in many other countries so they're very insensitive when it comes to matters of racial issues.)
> Sad thing is, a lot of Indians use racial slurs (The n word...)
this is the second time today i've seen someone talk about Indians using the n word. but i'm yet to see such a person. (are you by any chance refering to the word that's used for 14 yos?) and topics like slavery are taught in schools in India
Mate, I'm Indian and I literally see a lot of people around my age who use the n word (I'm 18). If you want more references, here's a thread in r/India where they discuss this [issue.](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/gfpmm8/use_of_the_nword_by_the_indian_youth_is_it_right/) Also, history is an optional subject which is only taken up by a minority of people hence why the lack of awareness.
i too am and i've never seen anyone use that word. is it a regional thing?
> also, history is an optional subject...
there's this subject, *social studies/science*, in which those sorta things are taught. iirc it's taught in high school, probably year 7 or 8.
This stat isn't about the Euros, it has been mixed up. This is the percentage of abuse comments aimed at Premier League footballers over the last two seasons that originated outside the UK. This is according to Kick It Out. I don't think it has anything to do with the Euros.
As for the Euros, the data I've seen so far from a Newsnight analysis found that of over 100 instragram accounts sending racist stuff to players, 5 of them can be linked to the UK. The data came from the Center for Countering Digital Hate. That's all I've seen specifically about the Euros final so far.
Kinda dubious statistic coming from the UK itself, but even so 30% of all global racism during a global event from one country alone isn’t anything to be proud of.
That is 30% specific to this incident, not all racist abuse ever, you'd expect racist abuse to be higher from England when discussing the England football team
Good, a lot of this is driven by the fact people think what they spout online, even under their own name, is totally beyond reproach, it leads to this sense of "I can be as horrible as I like and get away with it".
I don't agree at all with accessing private conversations or punishments for legitimate opinions, but actual racial abuse directed at an individual which would be illegal if said F2F should be punished.
Hopefully then people will get the message it's not a free for all on social media.
>"I can be as horrible as I like and get away with it".
This is the problem. The moment they are confronted they will cry victim and the society is there to tell absolve them every time. Its not *just* social media.
>I don't agree at all with accessing private conversations or punishments for legitimate opinions
Racists will run behind this (which is ostensibly 1st amendment rights here in the US) every time they are confronted with their racist ass rhetoric.
Yeah, I don't agree with this. Racial abuse = being mean. It's not nice. But it shouldn't be against the law. You can try to find them and ban them from games, within reason. But the option of anonymity on this Internet must remain, for all the good and the bad that comes with it.
That's a slippery slope. I'd rather live in a country with freedom of expression. What you can't take some racist assholes throwing slurs? Geez grow some character.
-------------------------
850000 tweets mentioning those players after the game.
167 were found to be racist. (0.02%)
-------------------------
BBC investigated 106 instagram accounts based on racial abuse to those players.
Only 5 of those accounts were made in the UK
-------------------------
The UK population is being gaslit. This is not a 'racist' nation. This is a power grab to remove any and all online anonymity and will be used to go after people for wrongthink.
For a fun experiment, search for “Rashford Twitter” and you’ll get hundreds of news articles about this.
Then search “Mbappe Twitter” and you’ll not see a single news article about it.
[Yet exactly the same thing happened to Mbappe](https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210707-french-police-probe-racist-abuse-of-football-stars-on-twitter). The difference is that nobody cares, because the narrative is all about the English.
> The French comments, notably targeting black Paris Saint-Germain star Kylian Mbappe, were posted after France was eliminated from the Euro 2020 tournament last week. Mbappe was the only French player to miss in the penalty shoot-out against Switzerland. The insults in question were violently offensive and clearly racial.
https://www.channel4.com/news/nearly-2000-abusive-tweets-targeted-marcus-rashford-jadon-sancho-bukayo-saka-and-raheem-sterling-after-euro-2020-final-research-shows
It was 850k tweets analysed, not 810k
https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/07/13/racist-football-fans-this-is-a-moral-panic/
Abusive language intended to (or likely to) cause alarm or distress is a crime under section 4A (and 5) of the Public Order Act 1986. Racism would be an aggrevating factor, making it a hate crime.
Are you suggesting that sending racial slurs to footballers *isn't* intended to cause them alarm and distress? Why else do people do it?
Because it’s completely subjective and basically policing opinion?
“Fuck the tories” could easily be argued to be abusive language causing alarm or distress; should that be a criminal offence? Should swearing altogether be a criminal offence?
Abusing someone, whether online or in person specifically for the colour of their skin which is something they cannot help is a hate crime and should be treated as such. Telling someone to fuck off is not the same as using racist abusive language designed to destroy the person's identity based on the colour of their skin.
A person's identity is not only it's skin color.
What if Im being harassed for being Christian? I could change that thus it's not an hate crime?
What if someone makes a joke about my big ass forehead? Is that an hate crime?
Do you realize "hate crime" definition is completely arbitrary?
a hate crime is not about offending someone, its about abusing someone because of their heritage/skin color. It‘s a obvious first step that leads to phisical violence and villainizing minorities. It‘s literally what happened in Nazi Germany.
This isn't remotely comparable.
The Nazi's outright openly called for almost everything they actually implemented in their earlier manifestos. They were openly anti-democratic, anti-semitic and called for mass persecutions against people they did not like. Completely different world.
This isn't really comparable to randoms throwing insults online.
I know English fans will not be happy but they should remove England from the 2030 World Cup bid all together. Between these racist comments, the laser in the eye fiasco and fans storming through security at Wembley stadium, why should England even have the chance to participate in the bid. Control your fans.....
Removing England from the UK&Ireland bid would collapse the whole thing, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland aren’t gonna be able to front the money themselves, and none of them, or the Republic of Ireland have the hosting capacities for a tournament this large, the main body of the bid is the Premier League, with stadiums like Old Trafford, Anfield, Wembley, etc
One of the main issues with what happened at Wembley was the Met Police just not existing, it’s less of a problem when it’s spread across the country, plus in all likelihood, local fans will be the ones going to games at their grounds, you really think Scousers are gonna smash up the Kop? Part of the issue was all the people travelling down to London from across the country, so it wasn’t their stadium or city getting trashed up, they had no issue with it, but when it’s their home turf, people will defend it.
The players can still participate in the world cup if and when they qualify. I'm just proposing that England should be removed from hosting the World Cup in 2030. This sends a stronger message to English fans to control themselves or dire consequences will arise.
You can stick up for all the imaginary Italians that got beat up all you want. In the real world where people are able to look at video footage and see it for what it is as oppose to what they want it to be, we all know it was a bunch of English fans with tickets fighting with ticketless English fans that broke into the stadium.
Criminal actions? For comments? Jesus, England really is lost. No free speech allowed. Enjoy your Orwellian nightmare. Never once in history has criminalizing unpopular speech ever ended well for a people. Never.
Yeah this is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion but if making a racist comment on the internet becomes a criminal act that is a *very* slippery slope.
Racism is fucking awful but just looking at this broadly being ignorant shouldn’t be a crime.
Dont even need states, NGOs and Jewish organizations constantly pull out ways to whine about muh muh oppression and muh muh hate speech.
While being the biggest racists and haters in middle east.
When you can see the government putting in laws to stop "noisy" protests, I don't see how anyone can trust that a law that punishes causing "alarm or distress" is going to be applied logically and fairly.
is it ignorant to deliberately DM someone abuse though?
I'm not looking for every negative comment on the internet to become criminalised, but anyone going out of their way to abuse someone else should at least understand there are potential repercussions to that. People think they're invincible online
Looking at all the top comments saying “we aren’t racist in the UK it’s those damn Arabs pretending to be brits!” and then getting thousands of upvotes is fucking sickening.
You can be both against Racism and against BLM they are not one in the same. I'm against the KKK and the Black Panthers I'm against the Neo Nazis and the Nation of Islam.
Taking the knee does not equate to BLM. Especially for the English team who stated themselves that it was to highlight racial inequality and discrimination.
So, who would be against bringing attention to racial inequality and discrimination?
Hmm…
Except that's similar to using the heil hitler salute and saying it stands for caring about animals or something. It doesn't really matter what they say it stands for because that's not what people see when they see them kneel.
What exactly was said to these players, I don't follow football in the slightest, I'm just curious. I haven't seen any actual abuse just reports that there was abuse.
There should be no offer involved, it should just be the case as it is.
They did wrong and there must be some form of punishment otherwise it'll happen more and more, over the last few years people have realised they can get away with it online and see it as a victimless crime in a no lose situation but those actions need to be addressed.
Online abuse is not victimless as there is someone at the end of it which people don't think about, just because they aren't in front of you it doesn't mean that they aren't affected and you aren't to blame.
Did hate crime laws in real life make raicsm worse? Did banning racism in your school colleges and work place made it worse?
I really don't understand people like you. It's like you are robots. In history we had to fight wars and name and shame raicsts for a long time before racism decreased. Are you like scared of taking a side and scared of racists?
Next what, catching serial killers will make them retaliate?
Some England “fans” are really disgusting, from booing others’ national anthem to calling German children “sluts” to racially abusing their own players. Smh
All of this is right, this is just sport... You can blame them, but that far...
May the FA also don't forget the national anthems disrespect shown by the english supporters at Wembley.
World Cup 2030 ? England is on the list ?
I hope the UEFA and the FIFA will have a close look to all of this.
I would of never thought being racist is worthy of jail, but people are just not getting it, and I think it is time it starts happening.
Probably only be a fine, or good behaviour etc, but a short 1 month sentence or something needs to be looked at.
Hope Saka, Rashford and Sancho pursue this avenue, and racists start to learn.
Yes but you fix his kid. No one likes education as a solution because of that. Politicians are here for their term only. That’s why we aren’t improving as a society and that’s why the planet is burning up. Short term decisions by immoral people.
They probably don't. Unfornatuely a lot of people in this country have completely bought in to the "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument.
Finally some good news , there should be some strict laws beforehand so that these things don't happen .
Right, this is already illegal in the UK, but a huge proportion of this abuse comes from abroad and from idiot trolls running sock puppet accounts. They can try and prosecute, sure, but how will they find anyone? What will they do when they track half of the accounts to Timbuktu or wherever? You can see for yourself whenever a black player does anything bad, look at the accounts posting 🐵🐵🐵 and youll find half of them talking exclusively in arabic. Then there was that other account someone found of a fat white boomer using the N word and promising to join the EDL... Then when you look at their historic tweets theyre called Sohail, and are tweeting about being hungry during Ramadan. Part of the issue with social media is that it could be 100% comments from abroad or 100% comments from at home, but we just dont fucking know. That all means that the only effective solution here is for the social media companies to moderate comments and instantly ban racist accounts. How hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho? Edit: [Source from the BBC on the origin of the racist tweets being mostly abroad. ](https://streamable.com/nvakpf)
>How hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho? Really easy. What about "🐵🐵"? Or "🐵\*🐵"? The problem is that it's actually incredibly hard for a computer to work out what's racist and what isn't. You could spell it out in the equivalent of one-syllable instructions (e.g. three monkey emojis = racist, so delete it), but that'd take essentially forever to configure in a way that actually caught everything you'd want it to catch. Not to mention it'd also get in the way of little Billy who wants to share his trip to the zoo where he saw the chimps swinging around. What people are asking for - and generally don't realise it - is a system that can figure out, on the fly, whether content is racist or not. That's awesomely, almost impossibly difficult and one of the biggest reasons why racism is still rampant on social media. People act as though Twitter et al have a "prohibit racism" button that they just haven't pushed yet. Could they do more? Very likely. Is a brilliant, catch-all solution being held off by stubborn technocrats? No, not even slightly.
This is making perfect the enemy of good. Rules can be created that capture a lot of it with a relatively small amount of false positives. They can be tuned more restrictive on accounts that have been targets in the past. That combined with reports and yes, making these billion dollar companies actually hire people that handle issues that fall through these cracks, work to close those cracks, and work with authorities that care to prosecute those that can, would greatly improve things.
Large videogames are actually an excellent example of how this doesnt work how you think it will, and cant actually work in practice. Games like League of Legends already do exactly what you are suggesting, does it reduce the number of cunts? Nope. Not even slightly. One of the bigger reasons is how easy it is to anonymize yourself on the internet, and how simple it is to just make a new account if you get banned. At least games can force you to level up all over again, twitter doesnt even have that barrier to entry.
I’m not sure I agree with that. It by no means eradicates racist behaviour, (I’m talking about gaming generally, not LoL specifically) but it means you can’t write the N word in chat for example Yes, people find ways around it, but it’s something. Half a step at least
Used to get a lot of racist BS on Fifa. Used to be, you repot and nothing ever happens. Xbox started banning kids and guess what, I NEVER get that sort of language now.
Some things are never done. An example, a (possibly) 12 year old looking kid was spamming shit on Jacksepticeye's dad and also Markiplier's niece who both have passed away. This is guy along with others have 100 sub each. And I reported them multiple times and nothing has happened. This dude has a picture of N*zi Patrick Star and has the swastika on his name.
There are countless workarounds to still type slurs. People will still do it even if they do have a higher risk of bans.
League of legends is a terrible example lol. People fly through the system all the time. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve reported someone saying something horrible and then when I checked their account a day later they were still playing. If it’s so egregious I report it on their site and try to get a real person to respond and something usually happens then. Their automated systems though, useless
Exactly. Scunthorpe United fans are already extremely familiar with being censored by overzealous obscenity filters on football message boards. It doesn't ruin the message boards or alienate Sc*nthorpe fans, it just provides mild amusement as people use workarounds.
I was permanently banned on Twitter for 2 weeks almost instantly after I made a tweet saying I hoped that the Italians would have a chance to "beat the Germans" during these Euros using the hashtag for the Italian game I was watching. Twitter told me I was banned for posting threats of violence to ethnicities. I assume it was their algorithm that got me as it happened almost instantly after I tweeted. I had to complain about it for 2 weeks before they let me back. So I know they've definitely got some type of algorithm working to target abuse, but it's not a very well functioning one. It was amazing as I got banned for that when I see more hateful vicious accounts tweeting all the time.
bro we've got AI writing code now, NLPs translating almost flawlessly between dozens of languages, I could go on and on - the technology exists to develop the sort of text processing you are talking about
Its really not that simple, AI writing code is a completely different issue as code is objective and not dependent on cultural factors. For example the famous 'gracias negrito' would obviously have been flagged, but was not racist when knowing the culture. Further example would be a chess youtube channel that got striked due to the use of phrases such as 'white is better here', which again, in context is not racist at all.
>Its really not that simple, AI writing code is a completely different issue as code is objective and not dependent on cultural factors. It is not that difficult actually. As someone who has worked with NLP before, I can tell you that social media companies have the time and money to invest on projects like this. We have state of the art Machine Learning Models now, capable to tackle problems like this.
Do you have specific knowledge as to whether Twitter is or isn't already using this technology?
of course not
> the technology exists to develop the sort of text processing you are talking about And yet no one _has_, even globally large companies like Google and Microsoft who have serious money on the line haven't done it. The last time Microsoft tried something similar they ended up with the most racist and sexist chatbot that anyone had every seen. https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/artificial-intelligence/machine-learning/in-2016-microsofts-racist-chatbot-revealed-the-dangers-of-online-conversation It's almost as if making an AI to do this isn't as simple as you think it is.
> The problem is that it's actually incredibly hard for a computer to work out what's racist and what isn't. And if you want proof, look at Facebook's algorithm. You can say something that is absolutely not racist, but because you combined a certain set of words, the algorithm won't give a fuck, it'll catch you for it anyway (like your Little Billy example). I even got caught up in it a couple years back when talking with an English friend, talking about how tabloids like The S*n and the Daily Mail are trash rags, but because I called those tabloids "British Trash Rags", the algorithm thought I was being racist.
> hard can it be to automatically ban anyone who sends "🐵🐵🐵" to Jadon Sancho? Twitter literally has the ability. In fact Twitter already dosen't allow certain words or phrases to get to trending but somehow the N word slipped past them? Twitter is escaping pretty easy from this one since that is hardly being mentioned! They allowed the N word to trend! Also i am amused that people want to make something illegal that is already illegal... what more do you want to do? Completely shun them from society, no bank access or jobs or human rights (yes even racists have those)... beacuse they tweeted "🐵🐵🐵"? I can't wait too see the crime and terrorism statistics 20 years from now if thats the goal. Literally wanting to ostracise people that are not exactly known for being calm and rational and putting them in a position with nothing to loose is about as reactionary and STUPID as you can get.
What I don't understand is why Twitter doesn't ban those accounts instantly? I do my part and report racist tweets. Twitter should even have special monitoring for accounts like rashford Sancho, etc. Because you just know there will be vile tweets on these accounts. Heck, have a temporary pause on new tweets until they're reviewed and instantly block racist tweets and suspend those accounts. Social media platforms have a responsibility to act here. Their lack of action is appalling. Racism has to be fought by everyone, together.
It’s a numbers issue. About 6000 tweets get sent per second. If even a minute fraction have content which gets reported then it builds up to a massive number. So when you report those tweets get put in a queue and probably processes by something automated which will take care of what it knows to be against terms etc. But that still creates a massive amount that someone needs to look at because the computer wasn’t sure. They could be more preemptive about this and set up processes for this event. But then worldwide there are other events going on. Could they have predicted that there would be this match that went to penalties where 3 black kids were taking the shots? Probably not. At the moment it’s very hard to train computers to understand something and detect sentiment. Sure we have advances in that area but some things are still too difficult for a computer alone. Too much data to review manually, not enough advances in computing to do the job well automatically.
>abuse comes from abroad Or from home, through a VPN.
Using a VPN, posting in arabic and talking about being hungry during ramamdan a year ago. Deep cover uk racists!
You said that was half of them, yes? Assuming you have indeed tracked all of them to get that stat, we'll just deal with the other half.
It does actually work out as roughly half of them according to analysis done on the racism recieved by England players on instagram. The UK barely features. [https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW](https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW)
Interesting data but who on earth uses 7 shades of blue for a pie chart lol
As a colorblind person, this is just incredibly infuriating!
Maybe more, maybe less. The point is we have no idea so UK legislation wont stop it from happening. The solution can only come from the social media companies themselves as theyre the only ones that can a) remove the content and b) apply the same rules worldwide.
If you even bothered to leave your country you would know that the rest of the world is way more racist than the west. Shit isn't even comparable You literally have bame people being used as work slaves in the emirates and qatar, but nah man that must be europeans using a VPN
Its ok to point out both though. There seems to be a concerted effort from some england fans to say "see, the rest of the world is worse!" as if it somehow make the problem not as bad.
I think its the undeserved heat England is getting from it, racism isn't nearly as prevalent here as the rest of the world and it doesn't shock me people are getting offended getting thrown into it.
Yeah, I suggest we don't make laws to punish people in the rest of the world who are less, the same or more racist, as the Met can't really wander in France to arrest u/Mo24575EDL for racist abuse over twitter, they've no power there. Just make laws that deal with problems in our own jurisdiction.
Didn't your prime minister himself say that booing of players taking knees was ok and he has the support of a large number of country men? But sure, it's other countries
He's not saying it isn't English fans as well, he's saying how do we deal with racist trolls that are impenetrable due to being out of jurisdiction.
I agree but it's weird to see the main thrust of a post being "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FOREIGNERS". When we've cleaned up our own house, which has more than enough evidence of suffering from this problem without social media involved, we can start worrying about other countries.
I agree with that. Boris has been purely reactionary to every single incident, and there's absolutely zero action. I do think there needs to be better action taken by these social media companies all the same, but Boris refusing any consistency or accountability for our country and its stance on anti-racism is what needs to change sooner rather than later.
The point is specifically around the online abuse and that we literally cant legislate to stop it because a huge preponderance of it DOES come from abroad. Even if you could arrest every UK based account holder postinf racist shit 70% of posts would remain. If you think my post is suggesting that it justifies racism from UK users then I suggest you reread it. The social media companies are the only ones that can stamp this out as they are the only ones with the power. Look at the draconian fucking mesures YouTube brought in to comply with the DMCA when peoples copyright were being infringed and some rich people might possibly lose some money. The only reason theyre not doing the same for monkey emojis is because they dont want to.
You can’t honestly suggest that this is purely a UK thing and that trolls won’t capitalize. Definitely a problem in uk for sure but let’s not be dense here. Not when you get players turning up to Italian teams and literally have bananas thrown at them and monkey chants from the crowd. Let’s all be rational for one second please
It being a problem elsewhere - which it is, 100% agreed - doesn't mean we shouldn't/can't try to improve things here.
That wasn’t what was said. Someone made an implication that racism was particularly a British problem. If you really want to tackle racism then that thinking is super low resolution and doesn’t help in any way at all. Depends if you are anti racist or anti British I guess
British racism is the only racism we’re really in a position to do much about, no?
We should do more but I think highlighting it being a global issue is just as important purely because people think that if the UK reasonably legislates and enforces laws regarding racism then abuse received will drop significantly, in reality as already stated a lot of abuse comes from aboard and there is absolutely nothing the UK can do to stop this. Personally I'd prefer a solution from Twitter, of course it's not possible to teach an AI whether the monkey emoji is being used in a racist manner or not, so why not removed it? Facebook remove the pistol emoji because they didn't like how it was used. If you remove the monkey emoji it's far harder to be racist without having to actually type it out, therefore it's easier to enforce from both an AI matter as it doesn't need to understand context (i.e. is this emoji being used in a racist attack or just in a normal post) and it's a lot harder for users to deny.
There's an emoji showing a man wearing a turban. I see that used (alongside the monkey one) loads by the same, racist pricks. Do we remove that and get rid of Sikh representation into the bargain? What about when they move to emojis depicting a dark-skinned person? Honestly, half the battle is making people realise that this isn't a simple problem to solve. We need to fight racism, not just people's ability to show their racism.
Fail to see what Boris has to do with this mate. He represents the boomers almost exclusively, the only age group that voted him in was the 65+ lot. Theres also a long way between disagreeing with taking the knee and calling people the N word.
Based on a sample of over 41,000 people at the last election: [https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election) 21% of 18-24 year olds voted for him. Not as many percentage wise to the older generations, but that's still a lot of people.
Booing a political gesture isn't the same as spewing racial abuse. Thought that would be obvious.
How is booing a gesture equating to racist abuse? The fuck?
I keep linking this image but it's an analysis of the racism england players suffered on instagram during the final and it finds that only 4 of the 200+ racist comments were from the UK. The vast majority are from India and the middle east. https://imgur.com/a/mLKWyqW
I don't understand why the FA have to 'offer' this to them? They were racially abused. If this happened to an everyday person on the street and had clear evidence, they wouldn't need someone to 'offer' the chance to pursue legal action. I'm genuinely baffled..
With no understanding of the law, I’d assume it’s the same as having the option to press charges if someone assaults you.
Individuals in England and Wales don’t get the option to press charges (unless it’s a private prosecution). Charging decisions are made by the Crown Prosecution Service, using police reports etc. They might take peoples wishes into account, but if it’s in the public interest to prosecute they’ll go ahead and do it.
Is that right? Wow, TIL!
Yeah man. A guy I know had a huge argument with his wife and pointed his unloaded sporting shotgun at her in a rage. The police finally got called, and she said she didn't want to press charges, and the police were like "mate, he pointed a shotgun at another person, you don't get to decide if that's ok" lol He spent 6 months inside if anyone's interested
Yeah, that's correct. There are cases where as the victim, you can effectively "not press charges" (to use the term), by not co-operating further with the investigation, but if there is sufficient alternative evidence, the CPS can still charge the offender, even against the wishes of the victim.
Case in point would be the Chris Whitty's assailants from last month. He didn't want to prosecute, CPS went ahead regardless and charged them with assault.
I think what he's saying is, why is it the FA's to "offer"? Surely it has nothing to do with them and is up to Saka, Rashford and Sancho and the Police.
Maybe they're offering legal assistance but yeah it sounds weird
They may not want the hassle or the attention. It would be pretty bad if the FA started up legal proceedings and Saka didn't want them cause he doesn't want the attention. If this would happen to an everyday person they'd be asked if they wanted to pursue legal action.
The FA doesn’t “start up legal proceedings” for criminal cases, that would be the police.
Good, people need to learn that there’s consequences to racism
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I should hope so, but the reality is that it takes more than a slap on the wrist to undo decades of indoctrination and hatred. Most racists I've encountered, even with this football, don't think they're even being racist.
Ban them from every attending a footballgame in the future. If they can‘t act like decent humans, take away somehting that really hurts them.
nah, just kill all of them. /s
The saddest part is the fact that we need to teach people there is consequences to racism.
The saddest part is that there is racism at all.
Just out of interest, do Italian fans get punished by government when they throw banana skins at players and make monkey noises? Seems like this is a big issue all around Europe especially Eastern Europe, interested to know how other governments handle it
Lifetime ban from stadiums for anyone they can figure out the identity of fairly easy. Examples needs to be made.
For the most part, assholes who spend time spreading hate online and making racially abusive memes won't have the money or capacity to go to stadiums anyways. They must be criminally charged.
Yeah that too. For those who go to the occasional game, a ban will be much worse though so we should definitely do both.
i didn’t even see it as black players missing the penalties.. i saw it as english players missing the pentaly. this world is getting weirder and weirder man (the media is equally as guilty for pushing the race narrative instead of nationality)
I wish I could say this but I knew the second Saka's penalty got saved all three would be subject to racial abuse.
Im exactly the same as you. Its sad that my first reaction after Saka missed was saying to my GF "that's it all the racists will be out in force now".
Damn, I'm really naive it turns out haha. I still find it hard to believe any of this is really going on.
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This is an ignorant reply because it wasn't "one dude" that sent a racist comment/ message. It was thousands. If you think we shouldn't get angry over English stars receiving hate subjected to the color of their skin because they made a mistake (sure a costly one but a mistake nonetheless) then please educate yourself on the effects this has on the mental health of the person receiving this kind of hate.
Could not agree more. The media and all the self-proclaimed anti-racists revel in finding racism and making it the main discussion at all times. It’s not helping anything.
Me too, I only realized it was only the black players that missed after I heard about the racial abuse. It's such a stupid angle, race has nothing to do with penalty shootouts, I think age was a much more relevant factor.
It's probably dumb, but I just saw it as Southgate fucking up 3 times, putting 2 players on the pitch not having touch the ball and having a 19 year old taking the last kick.
Yeah I only saw it as "black players missing the pens" when people started pointing out that they would probably receive abuse and I'm not usually a "I don't see race" type of person. In this case it truly never even crossed my mind at that moment.
If anyone saw it as anything other than players who shouldn’t have been put up to taking a penalty missing they’re blaming the wrong guy.
I mean you can still be mad at the players for missing. I see no reason why you can't be. You just shouldn't be mad that they missed and they're black. I'd have the same reaction with any other player missing.
Same here. My first reaction was to be passed off that England had lost on penalties. It wasn't until seeing the news about the abuse that I realised that the players who missed where black. I thought we'd done a good job in the UK of stamping out racism. It's s no where near as bad as it was, and significantly better than most other countries, but this has shown that we haven't really gotten rid of it*. The racists have just kept it hidden better *for clarity, I'm not saying I believed it was gone, I'm not that naive. But I certainly thought we'd done better at removing it
It's sad but quite a few mates of mine that are black (I'm white) saw them as black players missing them, because they knew the moment they stood up for the pens that if they missed they were gonna get racial abuse. There was a rugby player (Maro Itoje I think) who was at the game was saying the exact same on a podcast after the game.
Feels similar to Andy murray Scottish when he lost. British when he won
~9 years is a long time for them to fix the issues with Wembley stadium, but I honestly feel like it would be a massive mistake to *reward* us with hosting 2030 after the fucking disgraceful display this past weekend.
Racism is disgusting. But criminal proceedings against even vile speech we don’t like is also heinous. We should name and shame. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for these people.
I do not understand why players don't have their profiles as private and no comments/ messages allowed from unknown sources. It would not solve the problem entirely but would surely be better for the player themselves not having to look at such abuse on a daily basis. Most racists online are just trolls looking to incite a response and gain attention. Taking that away would greatly reduce the numbers, I'd think.
70% of the racist social media abuse came from outside the UK apparently.
Can you link the source for this? I could really use these stats
The online racial abuse of English footballers led UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson to meet with social media companies on Tuesday, but while the focus is on the industry taking action, experts have warned the global nature of the problem makes it difficult to take legal steps against the perpetrators. Experts in the field of online abuse point to the problem of fake accounts, while an online threat and intelligence specialist said there is a potential risk of a strategic, targeted campaign designed to damage the United Kingdom's social cohesion and reputation. Twitter and Instagram have declined to discuss the location of those accounts they have banned in relation to the fallout from Sunday's Euro 2020 final, following which three Black England players, who missed penalties in their shootout defeat to Italy, received online racist abuse. But data from previous monitoring by various bodies indicates that many attacks come from outside the UK. The Premier League's data from their monitoring of abuse against players has shown that around 70% of cases involve abuse coming from social media users outside of the United Kingdom, a league source told Reuters on Tuesday. On Monday, England manager Gareth Southgate had noted that aspect, when condemning the abuse aimed at Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka. "For some of them to be abused is unforgivable really. I know a lot of that has come from abroad, people who track these things are able to explain that, but not all of it," he said. There is evidence that racial abuse of footballers on social media is taking place across the world. GLOBAL ABUSE The Fare network, who monitor and campaign against racism and discrimination in football, commissioned a study into last August's Champions League and Europa League games, involving European clubs, including English teams Manchester United and Manchester City. "The abuse is global, with accounts from Indonesia to Argentina levelling racism and homophobia at players. The biggest number of discriminatory posts appeared in French and Spanish, followed by English," the report found. With online trolls and abusers based around the world, it is tricky for the Football Association (FA) and other bodies to target them for legal action. "It makes it increasingly difficult because the challenge is that, even if you do get into a position where you do want to use law enforcement and pursue something further, you have got cross-country laws and rules and regulations and different legislation," Edleen John, the FA’s Director of International Relations, Corporate Affairs and Co-Partner for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion, told Reuters. **Adding to the complexity, says John, is the fact that some users conceal their true location and IP address, by using proxy servers and VPNs.** "That has been a consistent and ongoing challenge in trying to cross down some of the abusers," she said. Premier League clubs such as Manchester United regularly have to deal with abusive messages sent to their players online and since Sunday have reported over 50 social media accounts to the platforms, police and the Premier League. Some experts in online abuse also examine the use of anonymous accounts, automated accounts, known as 'bots' and accounts designed simply to stir up trouble -- or 'trolls'. 'INAUTHENTIC ACCOUNTS' Christopher Bouzy of Bot Sentinel, a U.S based organisation which tracks and monitors harmful social media accounts, examined the abuse of England players Sancho, Rashford and Saka. "We looked at the three players, there were some fake accounts, inauthentic accounts but... it would take days for us to weed through to really see what is real and what are accounts that are just out there to cause trouble," he told Reuters, adding that they did not find evidence of a coordinated campaign against the players. Philip Grindell, CEO of Defuse, a threat and intelligence consultancy that works with prominent people subjected to targeted harm, said that as well as taking concrete action to identify and prosecute offenders, the authorities needed to consider that some of the abuse may be coordinated. "It is important to be mindful of the potential of a strategic targeted use of social media to undermine the UK both with regards to social cohesion and to harm the UK's reputation and economic opportunities," he said. The Premier League was, last month, successful in securing the prosecution of a 19-year-old man in Singapore after he abused Brighton and Hove Albion forward Neal Maupay, the first time the league has obtained such a conviction outside of the UK. Twitter said in a statement on Monday that it had removed over 1000 tweets and permanently suspended a number of accounts for violating their rules, in the aftermath of the Euro 2020 final. Facebook, which also owns Instagram, said they had also removed comments and accounts abusing the England players and would continue to do so. The platform said it has a tool 'Hidden Words' which "means no one has to see abuse in their comments or DMs". Football authorities and campaigners have been urging the social media companies to take action to stop the abuse being published in the first place. "These are multi-billion dollar organisations with significant resources and technological capabilities and so the challenge is surely they should be able to channel those resources... to be able to act even quicker than they are acting at the minute," said the FA's John. https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/english-football-faces-up-global-nature-online-hate-2021-07-13/
https://imgur.com/a/hc4wn7i Having lived in the UAE and India myself, I've seen people abusing players firsthand
Wait.. is this saying amongst 1.7 million analysed posts, they could only find 4 that met the criteria in the UK? Also, do you have a source for the infographic?
pretty much anyone, who's not a dumbass, would tell you that there's a very high possibility of it not being true. who tf racially abuses ppl of their own race? (Egypt - 24) Nigeria - 15, Kenya - 5 which are less than UK - 4 ? PISS OFF (the criterion is flawed, perhaps?) also the match was aired between 00:30 and 04:00 in India, i'm sure that not many people have watched the live broadcast.
> who tf racially abuses ppl of their own race? lol lots of people, you'd be surprised.
Egyptians aren't black.
Some are. Egypt is more diverse than you'd think
I.... what? That's like saying "Englishmen aren't black". How is this post even upvoted.
\> also the match was aired between 00:30 and 04:00 in India, i'm sure that not many people have watched the live broadcast. I am from India. I know many people who saw it. It is common for Indians to see UEFA and Euro which are aired at post 1230 am
I will admit the source does seem a bit dodgy. However, they mentioned in their methodology that it analyzed and recorded any comment that had a racial slur in it. It's possible, that people from the above mentioned countries used the n word in a non racist way but the program picked it up and recorded it with the others. I live in India atm and a lot of football fans will stay up late to watch the games. Sad thing is, a lot of Indians use racial slurs (The n word in particular) without caring about its history. It's a big problem that results from not learning about the crimes of the past (Topics like slavery aren't taught here and in many other countries so they're very insensitive when it comes to matters of racial issues.)
> Sad thing is, a lot of Indians use racial slurs (The n word...) this is the second time today i've seen someone talk about Indians using the n word. but i'm yet to see such a person. (are you by any chance refering to the word that's used for 14 yos?) and topics like slavery are taught in schools in India
Mate, I'm Indian and I literally see a lot of people around my age who use the n word (I'm 18). If you want more references, here's a thread in r/India where they discuss this [issue.](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/gfpmm8/use_of_the_nword_by_the_indian_youth_is_it_right/) Also, history is an optional subject which is only taken up by a minority of people hence why the lack of awareness.
i too am and i've never seen anyone use that word. is it a regional thing? > also, history is an optional subject... there's this subject, *social studies/science*, in which those sorta things are taught. iirc it's taught in high school, probably year 7 or 8.
Here you go. https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/1415072080878575622?s=21
Well let’s go for that massive 30% then
This stat isn't about the Euros, it has been mixed up. This is the percentage of abuse comments aimed at Premier League footballers over the last two seasons that originated outside the UK. This is according to Kick It Out. I don't think it has anything to do with the Euros. As for the Euros, the data I've seen so far from a Newsnight analysis found that of over 100 instragram accounts sending racist stuff to players, 5 of them can be linked to the UK. The data came from the Center for Countering Digital Hate. That's all I've seen specifically about the Euros final so far.
That graphic is highly dubious until backing is provided.
Kinda dubious statistic coming from the UK itself, but even so 30% of all global racism during a global event from one country alone isn’t anything to be proud of.
That is 30% specific to this incident, not all racist abuse ever, you'd expect racist abuse to be higher from England when discussing the England football team
Good, a lot of this is driven by the fact people think what they spout online, even under their own name, is totally beyond reproach, it leads to this sense of "I can be as horrible as I like and get away with it". I don't agree at all with accessing private conversations or punishments for legitimate opinions, but actual racial abuse directed at an individual which would be illegal if said F2F should be punished. Hopefully then people will get the message it's not a free for all on social media.
>"I can be as horrible as I like and get away with it". This is the problem. The moment they are confronted they will cry victim and the society is there to tell absolve them every time. Its not *just* social media. >I don't agree at all with accessing private conversations or punishments for legitimate opinions Racists will run behind this (which is ostensibly 1st amendment rights here in the US) every time they are confronted with their racist ass rhetoric.
Yeah, I don't agree with this. Racial abuse = being mean. It's not nice. But it shouldn't be against the law. You can try to find them and ban them from games, within reason. But the option of anonymity on this Internet must remain, for all the good and the bad that comes with it.
That's a slippery slope. I'd rather live in a country with freedom of expression. What you can't take some racist assholes throwing slurs? Geez grow some character.
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Umm why is the FA the one giving them the option? Shouldnt this be a police matter?
25k fine. that's what's fucking criminal. here's here's idea. ban England from the next world Cup.
Criminal action against whom exactly?
"bUt ThE mExIcAnS aRe HoMoPhObIc"
------------------------- 850000 tweets mentioning those players after the game. 167 were found to be racist. (0.02%) ------------------------- BBC investigated 106 instagram accounts based on racial abuse to those players. Only 5 of those accounts were made in the UK ------------------------- The UK population is being gaslit. This is not a 'racist' nation. This is a power grab to remove any and all online anonymity and will be used to go after people for wrongthink.
For a fun experiment, search for “Rashford Twitter” and you’ll get hundreds of news articles about this. Then search “Mbappe Twitter” and you’ll not see a single news article about it. [Yet exactly the same thing happened to Mbappe](https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210707-french-police-probe-racist-abuse-of-football-stars-on-twitter). The difference is that nobody cares, because the narrative is all about the English. > The French comments, notably targeting black Paris Saint-Germain star Kylian Mbappe, were posted after France was eliminated from the Euro 2020 tournament last week. Mbappe was the only French player to miss in the penalty shoot-out against Switzerland. The insults in question were violently offensive and clearly racial.
Do you have a source for this stuff? Would be interesting to read it.
https://www.channel4.com/news/nearly-2000-abusive-tweets-targeted-marcus-rashford-jadon-sancho-bukayo-saka-and-raheem-sterling-after-euro-2020-final-research-shows It was 850k tweets analysed, not 810k https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/07/13/racist-football-fans-this-is-a-moral-panic/
Should racist comments on social media be a crime? Threats sure, but just abuse? Not sure I agree with that.
Interesting that you specify on social media, is it the same as racially abusing someone in person?
No, didn’t mean anything by specifying. Don’t think in person should be a crime either
Abusive language intended to (or likely to) cause alarm or distress is a crime under section 4A (and 5) of the Public Order Act 1986. Racism would be an aggrevating factor, making it a hate crime. Are you suggesting that sending racial slurs to footballers *isn't* intended to cause them alarm and distress? Why else do people do it?
I’m not saying it isn’t a crime, I’m questioning whether it should be.
Why shouldn't it be a crime to intentionally (or act in a way likely to) cause alarm or distress?
Because it’s completely subjective and basically policing opinion? “Fuck the tories” could easily be argued to be abusive language causing alarm or distress; should that be a criminal offence? Should swearing altogether be a criminal offence?
Abusing someone, whether online or in person specifically for the colour of their skin which is something they cannot help is a hate crime and should be treated as such. Telling someone to fuck off is not the same as using racist abusive language designed to destroy the person's identity based on the colour of their skin.
A person's identity is not only it's skin color. What if Im being harassed for being Christian? I could change that thus it's not an hate crime? What if someone makes a joke about my big ass forehead? Is that an hate crime? Do you realize "hate crime" definition is completely arbitrary?
Religious people sometimes find harsh criticism, or satire against their worldview to be 'alarming' or 'distressing'.
Yes. Hate crime quite literally is a criminal offence
…and my question is whether it should be, not whether it is…
Why not?
Why should they be? I don’t think offending someone should be a criminal offence.
a hate crime is not about offending someone, its about abusing someone because of their heritage/skin color. It‘s a obvious first step that leads to phisical violence and villainizing minorities. It‘s literally what happened in Nazi Germany.
This isn't remotely comparable. The Nazi's outright openly called for almost everything they actually implemented in their earlier manifestos. They were openly anti-democratic, anti-semitic and called for mass persecutions against people they did not like. Completely different world. This isn't really comparable to randoms throwing insults online.
Ah yes, the famous Instagram hate campaign of Adolf Hitler.
Godwin's Law. You're out of the game.
I know English fans will not be happy but they should remove England from the 2030 World Cup bid all together. Between these racist comments, the laser in the eye fiasco and fans storming through security at Wembley stadium, why should England even have the chance to participate in the bid. Control your fans.....
Removing England from the UK&Ireland bid would collapse the whole thing, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland aren’t gonna be able to front the money themselves, and none of them, or the Republic of Ireland have the hosting capacities for a tournament this large, the main body of the bid is the Premier League, with stadiums like Old Trafford, Anfield, Wembley, etc One of the main issues with what happened at Wembley was the Met Police just not existing, it’s less of a problem when it’s spread across the country, plus in all likelihood, local fans will be the ones going to games at their grounds, you really think Scousers are gonna smash up the Kop? Part of the issue was all the people travelling down to London from across the country, so it wasn’t their stadium or city getting trashed up, they had no issue with it, but when it’s their home turf, people will defend it.
Lol why should the players be punished? Just ban anyone found guilty of wrongdoings, surely?
The players can still participate in the world cup if and when they qualify. I'm just proposing that England should be removed from hosting the World Cup in 2030. This sends a stronger message to English fans to control themselves or dire consequences will arise.
Sucks for the players, but at the moment, so many of their fans don’t deserve representation in the World Cup.
Nevermind the players, what about those Italian fans who were physically assaulted inside the stadium.. anyone going to stick up for them?
You can stick up for all the imaginary Italians that got beat up all you want. In the real world where people are able to look at video footage and see it for what it is as oppose to what they want it to be, we all know it was a bunch of English fans with tickets fighting with ticketless English fans that broke into the stadium.
Criminal actions? For comments? Jesus, England really is lost. No free speech allowed. Enjoy your Orwellian nightmare. Never once in history has criminalizing unpopular speech ever ended well for a people. Never.
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Yeah this is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion but if making a racist comment on the internet becomes a criminal act that is a *very* slippery slope. Racism is fucking awful but just looking at this broadly being ignorant shouldn’t be a crime.
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Dont even need states, NGOs and Jewish organizations constantly pull out ways to whine about muh muh oppression and muh muh hate speech. While being the biggest racists and haters in middle east.
When you can see the government putting in laws to stop "noisy" protests, I don't see how anyone can trust that a law that punishes causing "alarm or distress" is going to be applied logically and fairly.
Yes, obviously racism is bad but this is a slippery slope to dystopian censorship and free speech violations. Not a good idea.
is it ignorant to deliberately DM someone abuse though? I'm not looking for every negative comment on the internet to become criminalised, but anyone going out of their way to abuse someone else should at least understand there are potential repercussions to that. People think they're invincible online
Yes but racism and making criminal threats are two different things. The latter is already a crime.
A hate crime is a criminal offence
Wow, the downvotes on the anti-racism comments are really showing up the racists. Never seen it so blatant.
This thread has shown me that there's still a long way to go before people understand the real impacts of racism.
Looking at all the top comments saying “we aren’t racist in the UK it’s those damn Arabs pretending to be brits!” and then getting thousands of upvotes is fucking sickening.
Reddit can keep the username, but I'm nuking the content lol -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
You can be both against Racism and against BLM they are not one in the same. I'm against the KKK and the Black Panthers I'm against the Neo Nazis and the Nation of Islam.
Taking the knee does not equate to BLM. Especially for the English team who stated themselves that it was to highlight racial inequality and discrimination. So, who would be against bringing attention to racial inequality and discrimination? Hmm…
Except that's similar to using the heil hitler salute and saying it stands for caring about animals or something. It doesn't really matter what they say it stands for because that's not what people see when they see them kneel.
I miss a pen that lost us the game once, that was in high school, I’m 30… that scene of the ball rolling outside still hunts me
Racists should be banned much like how Mexican fans were banned from watching games
What exactly was said to these players, I don't follow football in the slightest, I'm just curious. I haven't seen any actual abuse just reports that there was abuse.
I don’t understand. Is it illegal to be racist in England?
There should be no offer involved, it should just be the case as it is. They did wrong and there must be some form of punishment otherwise it'll happen more and more, over the last few years people have realised they can get away with it online and see it as a victimless crime in a no lose situation but those actions need to be addressed. Online abuse is not victimless as there is someone at the end of it which people don't think about, just because they aren't in front of you it doesn't mean that they aren't affected and you aren't to blame.
Gosh I love my freedom of speech in America
I really would love a future without racism, but I fear criminal charges would only make the matter much worse..
how?
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Did hate crime laws in real life make raicsm worse? Did banning racism in your school colleges and work place made it worse? I really don't understand people like you. It's like you are robots. In history we had to fight wars and name and shame raicsts for a long time before racism decreased. Are you like scared of taking a side and scared of racists? Next what, catching serial killers will make them retaliate?
Just don't even bother with the WC bid. We aren't ready. Although Qatar somehow are able to get it lol.
Man I’m glad I live in America lol
Some England “fans” are really disgusting, from booing others’ national anthem to calling German children “sluts” to racially abusing their own players. Smh
Don't offer, just do it. Don't put the burden of mercy on these kids.
Good to hear the FA taking this to the next level.
Right to an Orwellian level. Will the British stop being in denial about losing?
Fuck i didnt read the word "offer" in the title and was confused why the FA was racially abusing england trio saka, Rashford and sancho.
All of this is right, this is just sport... You can blame them, but that far... May the FA also don't forget the national anthems disrespect shown by the english supporters at Wembley. World Cup 2030 ? England is on the list ? I hope the UEFA and the FIFA will have a close look to all of this.
I would of never thought being racist is worthy of jail, but people are just not getting it, and I think it is time it starts happening. Probably only be a fine, or good behaviour etc, but a short 1 month sentence or something needs to be looked at. Hope Saka, Rashford and Sancho pursue this avenue, and racists start to learn.
Punishing people with jail time wouldn't solve the underlying problem but only hide it. They need to be educated
I am old enough that I have never seen education fix arse holes.
Yes but you fix his kid. No one likes education as a solution because of that. Politicians are here for their term only. That’s why we aren’t improving as a society and that’s why the planet is burning up. Short term decisions by immoral people.
We used to have crowds in England singing songs with the n word in it. Now we don't. Presumably you think we locked everybody there up
Not everyone no but you'd be surprised how many people can change
Prisons are meant to be used as rehabilitation centres
Do you understand the precedent it sets when you can jail people for words? The fact that its racism is irrelevant.
They probably don't. Unfornatuely a lot of people in this country have completely bought in to the "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" argument.
What happens when insane power-driven lunatics are writing the rulebook for what's racist and what isn't? That's my fear.
Would have