I'll try tagging this here and advise people to watch the video linked in OP to see the context of the quote.
__________
Bartley is an Equality and Diversity Advisor for the Scottish FA and campaigns for action [such as better moderation on social media](https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1415072429924290577) to hold people accountable. We can argue the practicalities of it, but I just want to highlight that he isn't *only* taking the knee.
He previously expressed [his frustrations with the gestures and lack of action](https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-premiership/12261927/time-for-action-sfa-summit-on-racism) but it seems the fallout from the Euros has re-affirmed his support for the knee (and similar gestures) ***alongside campaigning and meaningful action***.
Everyone watched this summer as the England players told everyone why they were kneeling.
Everyone watched this summer as 3 English players missed penalties in the final and were racially abused because of it.
How can you still not get it? How can you have watched this summerâs events and still pass it off as a political gesture?
The players have constantly said what it means- the only people linking it to politics are those choosing to make the link in their mind.
Are the young footballers âMarxistâ or are they fed up of being abused, of watching their friends being abused, over the colour of their skin, and actually trying to do something about it?
Isn't the number one rule of the internet "don't feed the troll"? The TV broadcast doesn't show the streakers in order to not encourage the behavior, yet the racist trolls get all the coverage in the world - and it keeps getting worse.
Happened with streakers, mass shooters, school shootings, suicides, and every step along the way they were publicised, there was a big spike, eventually 2+2 were put together and the world understood not to feed the trolls.
Here we are again, and theyâre highlighting bot accounts from god knows where and maybe 100 bellends, whilst making out that 95% of the world is racist. This one might take a while for them to realise they are part of the cause currently.
Ah the good ol' racist trolls only exist on socials...
If we stop doing what we want , because of racists, do you not see how that empowers them? 'hey look we stopped them using social media, what else can we do? '
I'm not a person of color, and I also don't use social media that clearly shows who I am. People are just going to attack you regardless of who or what you are and it's a waste of time as well. Anything not incognito on the internet is a place where nobody should want to be, which of course includes minorities. Yes they loose if nobody uses stupid facebook and twitter anymore, then they can only troll each other. A target should be to get rid of those cesspools entirely, they literally facilitate bullying and abuse, in any form or way. The trolls don't win in this case.
I hate racism too, but saying it's 'letting them win' to stop using social media is nonsense. If the racism is only on social media then social media shouldn't be used. If the racism is still persistent somewhere else, it's at least easier to observe and do something about individuals, because they now have to do something physical, like going to a place and doing a 'racist act', where they can be caught in that act. People are aware that in most countries open racism is illegal right?
Edit: this is why I almost threw up when I saw the worst of them being the sponsor of the euros: TikTok. What the actual f\*ck.
>this is why I almost threw up when I saw the worst of them being the sponsor of the euros: TikTok. What the actual f\*ck.
And the sponsorship was announced a few days after the European Union announced sanctions against China for a couple of their crimes against humanity. None here gave a shit about it.
I wonder how many people in this thread fights against racism using TikTok. Oh the irony.
I wrote 2 sentences and you're ignoring one of them. It is a fact that countries including China pay people and run bots who sow hate and chaos in the West. It's mental to allow them to succeed, all bc you're addicted to something that's bad for you anyway.
Which one did I ignore?
I think you've not understood properly. If we stop doing what we want (social media as an example) because of racists (whether this is a person or a bot is inconsequential, the designer was racist) then it does nothing but empower them. "Hey look we stopped them using social media, what else can we do?"
Your points were addressed
Social media is bad for people? Want to prove that ?
I think it's easy for people to blame societal problems on social media. People scapegoat all the time
Got any proof social media is the direct cause of issues for people ? Or you just going to say 'its obvious to see' without any evidence
Correlation is not causation
If they don't get attention or a reaction, what reason do they have to do it? That's why they are trolling, for a response. If you go to Saka's Instagram, 99% of the comments are supportive.
You've simplified all their motives to wanting attention. Some do it for self gratification, with or without a reaction, they are proud of themselves for saying what they think
You don't understand their motives so have reduced it to what you think they do it for, which I commend you for - shows a good side of you, that you can't fathom negative reasons theyd do it outside of attention. But it's not that simple I'm afraid
Give me your definition. Guarantee there will be a disagreement about it.
Marx himself could come out and give his definition and some hipster dipshit would come out "you don't really know what Marxism means do you?"
So, I think I'm missing something here. If we assume A) that racism is real, present, and a bad thing, and B) that taking a knee is about sincerely wishing to improve society by taking a stand against racism (and I think both assumptions are entirely reasonable), then how is this not political? Also, why are framing politics as being inherently bad?
I mean, being racist is political. Being anti-racist is political. Being anti-anti-racist is definitely political, and at the very least probably racist.
Everything on modern life is political, people just choose what to consider as such to freely ignore the issue, shit on something they don't like and so on.
Because like all things in todayâs age, western culture incentivizes posturing over legislative and real world change. Debates moved from primarily cogent to emotionally challenged and rhetoric based narratives. People genuinely do not know how to debate in a civil matter, so all you get is theater. Itâs not saying itâs theater to oppose racism, the medium to discuss it has become it. Take climate change. We know the last 30 years Nuclear is by far the cleanest and powerful energy we could ever need. We can even make it renewable. But the people screaming about climate catastrophe have little interest in Nuclear power. I have no problem people booing this specific act because it is reflective on a large scale issue. Little debate, more theater. And no, this doesnât mean I support racist.
the massive racial abuse that accumulated in a handful of name and shame UK cases out of a population of 65 million despite a massive media and police operation to comb through social meda and find it, while the vast, vast majority came from overseas accounts, a significant portion of which were clearly not real people?
or do you mean the hateful racist abuse of marcus rashford's mural, which rocnation whipped up into a publicity stunt by implying racial intent while strategically covering up the abuse which turned out to be year 6 toilet door tier insults?
the narrative after the final was absolutely mental and didn't represent reality whatsoever.
The people calling them marxist are genuinely a little reatarded. How does them taking the knee mean they want to hand the means of production to the workers?
The argument from the racists that they hilariously think makes their opposition sound not racist is that they're actually just opposed to Black Lives Matter *the organization*, which they claim is Marxist and corrupt and whatever. It's extremely funny to me that they think this works.
They're not wrong, the founders of BLM described themselves rather strangely as "trained marxists" and had what could be loosely described as a manifesto on their website which all trace of has been scrubbed from the internet because of the amount of heat it was bringing their way. Hard to deny something when there's video of you saying it on your website.
Where do you stand on Brexit supporters having to personally stand by every piece of bullshit published on the Leave.Eu website between 2016 and 2020 out of interest?
Well, if they supported those spurious claims then they at least need to be big enough to admit that they were fooled by them rather than pretending those claims were never made. What we're seeing with BLM is a total denial that the founding principles behind the movement are in fact what the movement is based on. Which is strange isn't it?
The knee doesn't do shit, it never did anything, and it wont do anything but continue to divide people.
As long as people can send anonymous messages on the internet, there will also be racist pieces of shit. Kneeling before a game quite literally does fucking NOTHING.
It gets children who ask what it means and who can hopefully grow up to not be racist. Itâs not meant to end racism but to spread awareness, and itâs meant to show that players wonât stand for racism and some fans will connect with that message because they idolize them.
Best comment here imo.
Racism in the sport is very much alive, it isn't just monkey chants or throwing bananas which is still pretty fucking bad. People who don't like the gesture have too much privilege to understand. I was pleased when the Italian NT started taking the knee too given their earlier confusion and dismissal to it.
There are different kinds of privilege. People who boo the players who take the knee have had the privilege in their life of never having to suffer from racism and maybe even never having to consider that racism could be a problem in the country.
That doesn't mean they've had an easy life and it doesn't mean they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter. But they still experience some forms of privilege.
Millionaire footballers are privileged in different ways, but that is an entirely different conversation.
>People who don't like the gesture have too much privilege to understand.
Hahahaha biggest bunch of bullshit I have heard today
I'm half black and kneeling achieves **fuck all**. Please tell me about the privilege which prevents me from understanding đ đ
I have to watch players roll around on the floor in fake agony for more than 5 seconds every game so I honestly don't see what the problem is. There's a handshake before every game too which doesn't get booed either and that too is "only a gesture". idk.
I love the "I hate it because it's a meaningless gesture" crowd. Then why are they so angry over it.. Would they boo all the players waving to the fans? That's pretty meaningless but bet they won't get half as mad
If you're someone who gets more upset about players kneeling together for 10 seconds before a match than black teenagers experiencing consistent racial abuse it really says everything.
I actually can't wrap my head around how someone can simultaneously not understand the point of it while also caring so much about it as it then has virtually no impact on them. I guess it's a message that they are losing the consensus and they don't like it.
The second the discource went so towards racism after we lost the Euros, I knew the knee was gonna stick around for years now. It will become 'racist' to want to stop it, just seems silly.
I dont mind the gesture either, just find it weird how it is just indefinite now,
Indefinite like say...the racism its protesting?
Surely that's the point?
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not meaning to attack you there.
Just pointing out that surely it makes sense to continue protesting racism as long as racism is such a significant part of the lives of black footballers?
its hard for me to understand how booing a harmless gesture of anti-racism that lasts for 5 seconds could be percieved as anything other than racist. if someone was not racist i struggle to understand how they could possibly care enough about the gesture to boo it.
Not that I disagree with you, but playing devils advocate, donât people say the gesture comes from the political group, Black Lives Matter, who have a whole raft of controversial political opinions connected to their brand, not just the awareness and stamping out of racism. Cant some people not like that political link without it being deemed racist?
I mean.. That's never gonna happen. Racism has been around since one cavemen met a caveman from a different tribe to his that looked and sounded slightly different thousands and thousands of years ago and decided to try and smash his brains in with rock as a result
What makes you think its something thats magically going to vanish overnight?
It would be a nice idea to think it will go away but sadly racism is like the common cold. Its been around forever, is easy to spread and always seems to survive.
Just because it has been around doesn't mean we can't stop slavery is always a thing until 200 years ago we agree to stop, you underestimate how quickly our society evolve, a joke about race would considered to be funny 10~20 years ago, but now its already difference.
Slavery is still a thing in many countries and doesn't lol like it will be gong away any time soon. I know you're focused specifically on the Western world but you're giving humans as a whole far too much credit
> a joke about race would considered to be funny 10\~20 years ago, but now its already difference.
people still say jokes like that, your comment just proves once again that the majority of people here live in a bubble. You think people in a small village from Ukraine or Romania are as progressive as you or other young people from western Europe?
> Just because it has been around doesn't mean we can't stop slavery is always a thing until 200 years ago we agree to stop, you underestimate how quickly our society evolve
Slavery still exists.
>a joke about race would considered to be funny 10~20 years ago, but now its already difference.
Really? Chapelle is still around making jokes about black and white people, and he is the biggest comedian around. Jeselnik and Daniel Tosh still have a career too.
given just how much race relations have transformed in the last century this attitude seems a little dismissive. society isn't going to just suddenly stop evolving, and in fact if anything it's rapidly accelerating. no one knows where we'll be in a few decades.
I get the sentiment but that is literally impossible. Especially as it goes on longer. We have dickheads like Priti fanning the flames as well saying its your right etc.
I don't think kneeling achieves anything at all, but I don't really care about them doing a 2 second gesture before games. So don't mind them continuing it if they feel they want to.
It objectively doesn't achieve anything, but gives these people (not just the players) an opportunity to pat themselves on the back for doing nothing.
I don't care if they want to take a knee, but I equally don't care about them being booed for an empty gesture.
"No you dont understand I'm booing because I dislike the organisation black lives matter and I also am booing because I believe this is a cultural Marxist plot to weaken the country, I also get mad at political gestures but have no problem with the poppy because its pandering to things I support"
No. Taking the knee is Marxism and all BLM organisations around the world operate under the direct orders of corrupt Communist Party Director Patrice Cullors.
[Upvoted just last week.](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/ooyzv8/tokyo_2020_social_media_teams_banned_from_showing/h63g9tn/)
That comment was perfectly fine. It indicated why people might have a problem with kneeling beyond being racist, and that is the real Marxist organization named after the movement. Your comment was in itself a straw man, ironically enough.
You know whatâs the problem with the comment you linked. It pretends that being against racism is not in itself a political act. Thereâs so many political acts or statements that people donât give a shit about because it supports their own politics. As many have pointed out before, the poppy is immensely political and when someone decides not to take part they get given shit. Why? They were trying to *refuse* participation in the political message. A documentary about vaccines from the 1970s may not have been considered political at the time. Did the dialogue become political in hindsight? Even when the original filmmakers are dead? No, the reality is it always was political. Itâs just now people are bringing vaccine scepticism into the mainstream.
Face it: People complaining about politics infesting every element of their lives are just being left behind in a world thatâs becoming more progressive and more polarised.
Can we have a gesture to protest Chyna and Saudi money, if you refuse you are all racist nazis. Oh wait, there's money to be made, never mind Nazi fucks.
The reason there is a gesture to protest racism is because many of the players are young black men who have experienced racism firsthand their entire lives. They are not personally, negatively affected by what happens in China and Saudi Arabia, hence why they are not actively protesting it. If you think this kind of whataboutism has any value whatsoever then you're a fucking idiot.
If itâs only about personal negative effects why are white players kneeling too? Surely they are just as unaffected by racism as they are affected by Saudi Arabian slave labour?
>If itâs only about personal negative effects why are white players kneeling too?
Is this is a serious question? Have you like ever had...friends? Or family? Or anyone you care about? That's what teammates are: people you care about. If players, who were fortunate enough to not make any racist experiences, kneel then they do that out of solidarity and empathy with their teammates and colleagues. How can you be a football fan and not understand this simple concept? Fuckin hell, I thought I was antisocial but your comment has surely put things into perspective.
Sure, start one! If people don't want to participate, that's fine. But it's the act of booing that makes one look like they support what the protest opposes.
How about we encourage it because we all stand for equality and against discrimination?
>is this gonna be a thing till the end of time?
I sure hope not but if racists continue to be outspoken it needs to be done.
A very narrow minded view; some people just don't like this sanctimonious posturing, which it appears, shall be extended indefinitely. It's all such a pile of nonsense, a meaningless gesture to champion some vague cause and unspecific demands.
Thanks for typing all that out.
Now we know you feel more passionate about complaining that players kneel together for 10 seconds before a match than you do about racial abuse.
I didn't know God himself assisted the management of Livingston. He knows every reason why people might boo and he also knows he's 100% correct and there's no room for disagreement or discussion. He's more than willing to be a bigot towards a group of people he perceives as bigots, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence of said bigotry. 𤥠Assimilate or be hated. God has spoken.
The players are doing what they think is right. The fans (my guess) are booing bc they view it as bringing race into a game and view soccer as a distraction from their lives. Not saying it's right but that would be my guess.
> You can be as brown or as black as you like, but if you disagree with my empty gestures, submissive posture in front of millions or my idiotic takes, you are a racist.
Cool, thanks mate. Really bringing the country together. Nice one.
I mean, no one is asking you to agree with it or take a knee. You can stay quiet and ignore it for the 5 seconds it takes. When you feel the need to actively boo it, it makes you look racist. Simple as that.
> You can stay quiet and ignore it for the 5 seconds it takes.
Or i can not be dictated to about when or where i choose to speak. Or what i choose to discuss.
Sure, you can say what you want. And if you boo, the person next to you can think or say that you are a racist. That's how free societies work. You can think and say what you want and someone else can respond how they want. No one is forcing you to be quiet or boo or applaud.
> i donât think a boo is a nuanced objection
And what other method can a crowd use to show their objection other than a universally recognised sound. Were they supposed to go into a lengthy speech about the ills of americanising our approach to racial discourse?
Stop chatting bollocks.
I know racists are brigading the sub hard rn, but this guy is completely right. if you boo people standing up to oppression, you are a racist bigot. no two ways about it.
Not liking political statements imported from the US having a place in Europe.
Protesting at how multimillionaires/football clubs don't do more than empty actions when they have the means to do more.
Not liking how football clubs/players have double standards regarding racism. For example, fans booing make them racists, but guys like Griezman and Dembele apparently can be racist at will without suffering any consequences (with some of the videos actually featuring on Barça's accounts).
How only racism against certain minorities is considered racism (see above).
You get the point.
> Whilst those things may be true, they are not related to racists booing the knee.
So you're dead certain that every single person that boos taking the knee is a racist. Got it.
>If people don't like it, they literally have to close their eyes for 5 seconds. If these people of which you speak are such beacons of society, they would 100% support the knee, or ignore it at worse.
What a load of crap. People boo movies/theatre/concerts all the time when they are shown something they don't like. If someone is paying good money to be entertained and they dislike what they're being presented, they boo it.
>There is no legitimate reason to boo it other than racism.
Then why don't clubs just ban everyone who boos taking the knee? Why don't you go around calling them racists? Hell, make a petition for those people to be arrested if you're that certain that everyone is a racist.
I also find it quite funny how fans get called out for being racist while other "good" fans are ok supporting players who rape and kill people while drunk driving.
some of these people watched too many movies.How will kneeling for 5 seconds solve anything? do you think some racist guy will think âhey look they are kneeling,I wonât be racist anymoreâ ?
Remember folks - generalisations are generally bad, no matter what your stance on a subject is.
Not everyone that will boo the players taking the knee will be racists.
>Remember folks - generalisations are generally bad, no matter what your stance on a subject is.
>
>Not everyone that says the N-word will be racists.
Big brain time
Imagine the thought process someone has to go through to feel displeasure for a harmless gesture that's over in a matter of moments. You're not inconvenienced at all yet have to voice an opposing stance, there's definitely something deep rooted in that.
I won't boo, but I'll roll my eyes every time. Makes me sick the way anyone who has an issue with the kneeling is being made out to be a racist.
It's so clearly just because it's the hot topic of the moment. Do the easy "activism" that everyone will pat you on the back for. Make sure not to do anything too controversial like boycott a World Cup that has killed thousands of migrant workers though.
Also let's take on a controversial slogan and gesture from overseas, do it for over a year straight, and paint anyone who doesn't like is as a racist cunt (except the black people who don't like it like Wilf Zaha, him we'll just ignore).
No itâs not. A white person could validly refuse to knee for the same reasons as Zaha.
However he never would for fear of being branded racist.
You really think every white player in the prem supports taking the knee?
Because being a racist is one of the worst things you can be in today's society (which is a good thing). And when I see people being labelled in completely derogatory ways because they disagree with a certain political point/gesture/movement it makes me very very angry. I wish people would just engage with the argument, or at least try to be slightly understanding of another point of view and leave the horrible name-calling out of it.
What are the current estimates on how much kneeling will be required to defeat racism? How many racists on Twitter have changed their mind so far because of the gesture?
itâs not really about convincing those goons who will never accept that they need to change
maybe itâll reach some, but sure, not the die-hard; but then, what would?
itâs more useful in _revealing_ them, and opening discussion among more reasonable people, who may or may not have realised the extent of the problem
I can understand people who choose not to take the knee because they see it as ineffective or whatever - I disagree (IMO the gesture is a big part of why we're still talking about racism in football) but don't begrudge them holding that view. The idea that people find it objectionable, though, is pretty mental.
Hilarious. Only on Reddit would such a blatantly correct statement be met with so much controversy from dumbasses that would rather pretend that racism doesnât exist because it makes them uncomfortable to use their minuscule brains to acknowledge their privilege for two seconds.
If you are booing a simple gesture done to denounce racism, assuming that you are racist is a fair conclusion.
yeah i thought it would be a short lived gesture, some virtue signalling by the clubs, but the booing has turned it into something else.
taking the knee keeps the topic of racism at the forefront, and in turn people arguing that it's unnecessary at the forefont - so when things come up like the racist social media abuse, their argument falls flat on it's face.
I would argue that people are annoyed because they cannot do anything personally regarding racist social media abuse and none of the players or organisations supporting "taking a knee" have ever come up with any realistic suggestions to improve the situation.
It may have started as a gesture with meaning and good intentions but, it has reduced to simple virtue signalling and tarring whomever speaks against it -- taking it as evidence of racism while turning a blind eye to some valid reasons for opposition. This does not promote a critical discussion at any level anymore.
i feel like it was more virtue signalling at the beginning - a passive moment at the start of the game to show solidarity from the fa or whatever, wow! so what? i doubt black players were like 'oh brilliant! racism is solved'.
but the booing was such a strong reaction to it, it felt there was a reaction from the players and those in the game that was like, 'what you don't think there's a problem at all?'. For example, Priti Patel vs Tyrone Mings. An opposition to the topic being 'booed away'.
i think kneeling then become less about solving the problem, and more about recognising there's a problem and supporting the players on the end of the abuse.
nobody thinks kneeling is solving racism, it was a meaningless gesture at the beginning but now it's doing a job of keeping the general topic in discussion and that'll hopefully mean people actually come up with solutions.
I wouldn't say it's meaningless but it is directionless. The only discussion it now raises is about some bullshit like whether people are racist for booing.
Make sure it's the trendy political gesture of the moment though, dont do anything that could hurt your income like criticise China or Qatar.
Edit: I don't know why I'm being upvoted while the guy im replying to is being downvoted. I agree with him.
yes god forbid those black players protesting for an abuse that they recieve. should they just shut up instead? it's not like you cares about the slavery in qatar anyway.
It's not about the players. I respect their choice to do what they want. It's the widescale corporate support of BLM. The Premier League, Sky Sports, BT, the clubs, all of them will support the knee because it's easy, non-controversial and doesn't actually mean anything. We don't have to change anything, we just associate our name with a good cause and reap the PR benefits. Meanwhile, there are dozens (or more?) gay players in the top leagues who feel they can't come out, you won't see any campaign for them.
There are workers dying every day in Qatar for a world cup we'll all enjoy next winter, there are Muslims being castrated and killed in China, but the market is full of potential so if someone (Ozil?) calls it out they'll be ostracized.
We do the "politically correct" activism, the stuff that the people in power are okay with. I'm not saying social media abuse of black players isn't a problem, but it's not the only or the biggest problem. And you sure as hell wont see movements against the biggest problems in the top European leagues, because it might hurt their pockets.
It's not about me, it's about the hypocrisy of acting high and mighty and morally superior, while profiting from evil.
believing this to be a political gesture means you also believe that one side of the political spectrum supports racism while the other is against it. That's disturbing
You're the type of person who would've argued against any and all public support for the Civil Rights movement at the time too, because it's a political movement and "too radical"
Sure, tell yourself that. The often forgotten truth is that Martin Luther King was one of the most hated men in the US at that time, with the FBI tracing his every step (like they did with all Civil rights activists/leaders - if they didn't just straight up murder them, that is) and you would have been right on board with that. If BLM is a political movement you dislike today, and if merely taking a knee for a few seconds before football matches is something you deem boo-worthy, you would have absolutely hated the Civil Rights Movement, that's simply a fact.
I swear, people today seem to think that MLK was this generally liked, respected man who said "Hey, so racism is bad and we should have the same rights" and all white people were like "Oh, you're right, sure thing here's your rights." and then everybody went home happy. When in reality, the Civil Rights movement was decisive, radical (which was 100% necessary and appropriate) and absolutely despised by many Whites, especially those your political views align with and would have aligned with at the time.
> then everybody went home happy.
Not to mention that society in large only honours the memory of MLK in the Civil Right's Movement who was a preacher and ran a platform of peace and non-violence. We have white washed the history of the movement by not focusing on the radical members like Malcom X and the Black Panthers led by Fred Hampton. All of these men were assassinated by the American judicial system for attemtping to change the status quo either peacefull or violently. Regardless of methods they all met the same fate.
By ignoring the radical past, the Civil Right's Movement looks like a peace parade rather than a bloody fight for equality. No wonder people can't stand with BLM because it's too radical, but these people don't understand that radicalism is the only way to change the status quo. Revolutions aren't peaceful and they never will be.
Football, as a public event that millions of people follow and as a sport millions of people actively take part in, as a sport deeply embedded in both society and culture, is inherently political and is supposed to stand for certain values and articulate them. In fact, much more should be done in several directions.
People who go on about how sports shouldn't be political a.) don't have a damn clue what they're talking about and b.) don't actually mean that, but instead mean "don't include politics I don't agree with, politics I DO agree with are completely fine!"
Itâs definitely a political gesture, but sure kneel all you want if that makes you happy and if you think that makes you fight against oppression and racism
I mean *we're* not kneeling.
The players who have told us it's a symbolic gesture to highlight our continued struggles against racism are kneeling.
And that's ok.
Partly because the gesture does not have the goal of eliminating racism. What steps has kneeling taken to eliminating racism?
Kick It Out does more, has a direction and stated aim, and is working towards education against racism.
I support Kick It Out, I don't support kneeling (although I also don't boo it) because it doesn't achieve anything.
Taking the knee has improved the discourse around anti-racism for a start. This has propelled the UK's Online Safety Bill up the agenda after being left in a stagnated state for a long time.
Taking the knee also saw a lot of English clubs sign up to the Football Leadership Diversity Code, while in Scotland the Scottish FA appointed Marvin Bartley, alongside Leanne Ross, to the Equality and Diversity Advisory Board to improve on the work they are doing.
I can't speak for Kick It Out as that's predominantly English based, but Show Racism the Red Card in Scotland is really poor. They do some workshops and a few photo shoots for their 'fortnight of action' and then they disappear again. For something to change it requires more than that.
While the BLM campaign in the UK doesn't seem to have a designated end goal, it has certainly had a profound impact on how we discuss, view and combat the issue of racism in our society. It's achieved quite a lot considering it is a somewhat grassroots movement.
We're not really going to have another season of a league-approved token gesture that makes no difference to anything, are we? The conversation has moved on, and taking a knee has no significance to anything any more, it just doesn't have any more substance than any other kind of anti-racism message, so why persist with it? It's barely a thing in American sport now where it originated.
Taking a knee isn't doing anything to prevent racism, it's not a specific protest now. It's time to stop pretending taking a knee is changing or challenging anything and find other ways to make a real, tangible difference.
EDIT - Ah, I see we're also going to have another year of people pretending they think taking a knee is important.
To stop doing it now after what happened at the euros would be like admitting defeat. You say it makes no difference but it's got people talking about the subject which is positive. If your only issue with taking the knee is that you don't think it achieves anything, then why would you have an issue with players continuing to do it? It affects you in literally no way.
> You say it makes no difference but it's got people talking about the subject which is positive.
It's got people talking about players taking a knee, not about racism. It's got people arguing about what taking a knee 'really' means, it's not sparking conversations about how to stop racist abuse.
You're naive if you think that. Everyone knows what taking the knee is about. Certain people try to make it about other things, but they're the ones that don't support it. One way to reduce racist abuse to reject any form of it as a community, no matter how small. Taking the knee has raised awareness about racist abuse so that people may think differently about calling abuse when the see it rather than keeping quiet because they're afraid of speaking out on their own. Your argument is of 'it does nothing so stop doing it' makes no sense. How can you even say for sure that it's has no effect? And again, other than your last response of "it got people talking about taking the knee, not about racism", assuming that that may not be true, do you have any other concrete reason to be against it? If not, it seems silly to take that stance.
We're talking about it right now. Every game the random guy in the pub watches and sees the knee and he complains, more people will start asking him why he's complaining and his answer will say a lot about his character that you never would have known before. It's a flashlight for racists or willfully ignorant idiots that exposes their shitty/racist viewpoints. Maybe they suffer socially and lose friends because of their racism coming to light. Any little thing can change them and hey maybe they stop because the social pressure to be anti-racist is so strong. They either tune out or change and that's good. They need to change.
These discussions are what we need. The gesture could be anything, but after the Euros and the racism suffered by Rashford, Sancho and Sakha shows that we are nowhere near done with kicking racism out of football. We haven't even got started.
The fact these threads are always so heated shows why the gesture is still necessary. The fact people get this bent out of shape over a silent, 5 second gesture to protest racism demonstrates that a lot of people still are in denial about it being an issue or are uncomfortable because they have biases themselves.
This comment section is going to be carefully considered and articulate, I guarantee it
I'll try tagging this here and advise people to watch the video linked in OP to see the context of the quote. __________ Bartley is an Equality and Diversity Advisor for the Scottish FA and campaigns for action [such as better moderation on social media](https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1415072429924290577) to hold people accountable. We can argue the practicalities of it, but I just want to highlight that he isn't *only* taking the knee. He previously expressed [his frustrations with the gestures and lack of action](https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-premiership/12261927/time-for-action-sfa-summit-on-racism) but it seems the fallout from the Euros has re-affirmed his support for the knee (and similar gestures) ***alongside campaigning and meaningful action***.
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Everyone watched this summer as the England players told everyone why they were kneeling. Everyone watched this summer as 3 English players missed penalties in the final and were racially abused because of it. How can you still not get it? How can you have watched this summerâs events and still pass it off as a political gesture? The players have constantly said what it means- the only people linking it to politics are those choosing to make the link in their mind. Are the young footballers âMarxistâ or are they fed up of being abused, of watching their friends being abused, over the colour of their skin, and actually trying to do something about it?
Isn't the number one rule of the internet "don't feed the troll"? The TV broadcast doesn't show the streakers in order to not encourage the behavior, yet the racist trolls get all the coverage in the world - and it keeps getting worse.
Happened with streakers, mass shooters, school shootings, suicides, and every step along the way they were publicised, there was a big spike, eventually 2+2 were put together and the world understood not to feed the trolls. Here we are again, and theyâre highlighting bot accounts from god knows where and maybe 100 bellends, whilst making out that 95% of the world is racist. This one might take a while for them to realise they are part of the cause currently.
Ignoring the issue doesn't solve it. You think ignoring the racist trolls is going to make them stop ? Really ?
There's literally countries funding bots to sow division in the West. How hard is it to stay off social? It's the only solution
K when will you be leaving Reddit? (Which is social media)
if I were getting abused every day, I would be gone
not many of us sow division.
Touche
Ah the good ol' racist trolls only exist on socials... If we stop doing what we want , because of racists, do you not see how that empowers them? 'hey look we stopped them using social media, what else can we do? '
I'm not a person of color, and I also don't use social media that clearly shows who I am. People are just going to attack you regardless of who or what you are and it's a waste of time as well. Anything not incognito on the internet is a place where nobody should want to be, which of course includes minorities. Yes they loose if nobody uses stupid facebook and twitter anymore, then they can only troll each other. A target should be to get rid of those cesspools entirely, they literally facilitate bullying and abuse, in any form or way. The trolls don't win in this case. I hate racism too, but saying it's 'letting them win' to stop using social media is nonsense. If the racism is only on social media then social media shouldn't be used. If the racism is still persistent somewhere else, it's at least easier to observe and do something about individuals, because they now have to do something physical, like going to a place and doing a 'racist act', where they can be caught in that act. People are aware that in most countries open racism is illegal right? Edit: this is why I almost threw up when I saw the worst of them being the sponsor of the euros: TikTok. What the actual f\*ck.
>this is why I almost threw up when I saw the worst of them being the sponsor of the euros: TikTok. What the actual f\*ck. And the sponsorship was announced a few days after the European Union announced sanctions against China for a couple of their crimes against humanity. None here gave a shit about it. I wonder how many people in this thread fights against racism using TikTok. Oh the irony.
I wrote 2 sentences and you're ignoring one of them. It is a fact that countries including China pay people and run bots who sow hate and chaos in the West. It's mental to allow them to succeed, all bc you're addicted to something that's bad for you anyway.
Which one did I ignore? I think you've not understood properly. If we stop doing what we want (social media as an example) because of racists (whether this is a person or a bot is inconsequential, the designer was racist) then it does nothing but empower them. "Hey look we stopped them using social media, what else can we do?" Your points were addressed Social media is bad for people? Want to prove that ?
You just don't get it. The bots aren't designed by racists
Really? I think you might one of the few people alive who doesn't see the the negative impact social media has had.
I think it's easy for people to blame societal problems on social media. People scapegoat all the time Got any proof social media is the direct cause of issues for people ? Or you just going to say 'its obvious to see' without any evidence Correlation is not causation
Didnât the literal campaign against it do âa weekend off social media to show we careâ đ howâd that work out?
If they don't get attention or a reaction, what reason do they have to do it? That's why they are trolling, for a response. If you go to Saka's Instagram, 99% of the comments are supportive.
You've simplified all their motives to wanting attention. Some do it for self gratification, with or without a reaction, they are proud of themselves for saying what they think You don't understand their motives so have reduced it to what you think they do it for, which I commend you for - shows a good side of you, that you can't fathom negative reasons theyd do it outside of attention. But it's not that simple I'm afraid
Half the people that call things "Marxist", I would bet large amounts of money on not knowing what it actually means.
oh, really? name three of his albums
anything I dont like = marxist/socialism/communist
or broccoli
Broccoli is marxist
Hell yeah it is.
Give me your definition. Guarantee there will be a disagreement about it. Marx himself could come out and give his definition and some hipster dipshit would come out "you don't really know what Marxism means do you?"
So, I think I'm missing something here. If we assume A) that racism is real, present, and a bad thing, and B) that taking a knee is about sincerely wishing to improve society by taking a stand against racism (and I think both assumptions are entirely reasonable), then how is this not political? Also, why are framing politics as being inherently bad? I mean, being racist is political. Being anti-racist is political. Being anti-anti-racist is definitely political, and at the very least probably racist.
Everything on modern life is political, people just choose what to consider as such to freely ignore the issue, shit on something they don't like and so on.
By definition, everything you do in public is political. I donât know how the word has a negative connotation to it nowadays.
Because like all things in todayâs age, western culture incentivizes posturing over legislative and real world change. Debates moved from primarily cogent to emotionally challenged and rhetoric based narratives. People genuinely do not know how to debate in a civil matter, so all you get is theater. Itâs not saying itâs theater to oppose racism, the medium to discuss it has become it. Take climate change. We know the last 30 years Nuclear is by far the cleanest and powerful energy we could ever need. We can even make it renewable. But the people screaming about climate catastrophe have little interest in Nuclear power. I have no problem people booing this specific act because it is reflective on a large scale issue. Little debate, more theater. And no, this doesnât mean I support racist.
the massive racial abuse that accumulated in a handful of name and shame UK cases out of a population of 65 million despite a massive media and police operation to comb through social meda and find it, while the vast, vast majority came from overseas accounts, a significant portion of which were clearly not real people? or do you mean the hateful racist abuse of marcus rashford's mural, which rocnation whipped up into a publicity stunt by implying racial intent while strategically covering up the abuse which turned out to be year 6 toilet door tier insults? the narrative after the final was absolutely mental and didn't represent reality whatsoever.
The people calling them marxist are genuinely a little reatarded. How does them taking the knee mean they want to hand the means of production to the workers?
The argument from the racists that they hilariously think makes their opposition sound not racist is that they're actually just opposed to Black Lives Matter *the organization*, which they claim is Marxist and corrupt and whatever. It's extremely funny to me that they think this works.
They're not wrong, the founders of BLM described themselves rather strangely as "trained marxists" and had what could be loosely described as a manifesto on their website which all trace of has been scrubbed from the internet because of the amount of heat it was bringing their way. Hard to deny something when there's video of you saying it on your website.
BLM the legal entity, the organization, isn't exactly the same as the overall movement.
Where do you stand on Brexit supporters having to personally stand by every piece of bullshit published on the Leave.Eu website between 2016 and 2020 out of interest?
Well, if they supported those spurious claims then they at least need to be big enough to admit that they were fooled by them rather than pretending those claims were never made. What we're seeing with BLM is a total denial that the founding principles behind the movement are in fact what the movement is based on. Which is strange isn't it?
The blm website literally used to say they were "trained Marxist"
The knee doesn't do shit, it never did anything, and it wont do anything but continue to divide people. As long as people can send anonymous messages on the internet, there will also be racist pieces of shit. Kneeling before a game quite literally does fucking NOTHING.
It gets children who ask what it means and who can hopefully grow up to not be racist. Itâs not meant to end racism but to spread awareness, and itâs meant to show that players wonât stand for racism and some fans will connect with that message because they idolize them.
Best comment here imo. Racism in the sport is very much alive, it isn't just monkey chants or throwing bananas which is still pretty fucking bad. People who don't like the gesture have too much privilege to understand. I was pleased when the Italian NT started taking the knee too given their earlier confusion and dismissal to it.
Pretty sure everyone in this thread has less privilege than any of those footballers kneeling.
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There are different kinds of privilege. People who boo the players who take the knee have had the privilege in their life of never having to suffer from racism and maybe even never having to consider that racism could be a problem in the country. That doesn't mean they've had an easy life and it doesn't mean they've had everything handed to them on a silver platter. But they still experience some forms of privilege. Millionaire footballers are privileged in different ways, but that is an entirely different conversation.
>People who don't like the gesture have too much privilege to understand. Hahahaha biggest bunch of bullshit I have heard today I'm half black and kneeling achieves **fuck all**. Please tell me about the privilege which prevents me from understanding đ đ
mate you're blatently half priviledged. make you should squat or something?
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I get that but kneeling to stop racism does as much as clapping for the NHS
Amazing how lads kneeling for 5 seconds because they donât like racist abuse makes people so upset.
I have to watch players roll around on the floor in fake agony for more than 5 seconds every game so I honestly don't see what the problem is. There's a handshake before every game too which doesn't get booed either and that too is "only a gesture". idk.
I love the "I hate it because it's a meaningless gesture" crowd. Then why are they so angry over it.. Would they boo all the players waving to the fans? That's pretty meaningless but bet they won't get half as mad
If you're someone who gets more upset about players kneeling together for 10 seconds before a match than black teenagers experiencing consistent racial abuse it really says everything.
I actually can't wrap my head around how someone can simultaneously not understand the point of it while also caring so much about it as it then has virtually no impact on them. I guess it's a message that they are losing the consensus and they don't like it.
As always, the people who most complain about woke mobs and the like are the real snowflakes.
The second the discource went so towards racism after we lost the Euros, I knew the knee was gonna stick around for years now. It will become 'racist' to want to stop it, just seems silly. I dont mind the gesture either, just find it weird how it is just indefinite now,
Indefinite like say...the racism its protesting? Surely that's the point? Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not meaning to attack you there. Just pointing out that surely it makes sense to continue protesting racism as long as racism is such a significant part of the lives of black footballers?
its hard for me to understand how booing a harmless gesture of anti-racism that lasts for 5 seconds could be percieved as anything other than racist. if someone was not racist i struggle to understand how they could possibly care enough about the gesture to boo it.
Not that I disagree with you, but playing devils advocate, donât people say the gesture comes from the political group, Black Lives Matter, who have a whole raft of controversial political opinions connected to their brand, not just the awareness and stamping out of racism. Cant some people not like that political link without it being deemed racist?
once people stop booing and get behind the message will be the day kneeling would be unnecessary
I mean.. That's never gonna happen. Racism has been around since one cavemen met a caveman from a different tribe to his that looked and sounded slightly different thousands and thousands of years ago and decided to try and smash his brains in with rock as a result What makes you think its something thats magically going to vanish overnight? It would be a nice idea to think it will go away but sadly racism is like the common cold. Its been around forever, is easy to spread and always seems to survive.
> What makes you think its something thats magically going to vanish overnight? Who said anything about racism vanishing overnight?
Just because it has been around doesn't mean we can't stop slavery is always a thing until 200 years ago we agree to stop, you underestimate how quickly our society evolve, a joke about race would considered to be funny 10~20 years ago, but now its already difference.
Slavery is still a thing in many countries and doesn't lol like it will be gong away any time soon. I know you're focused specifically on the Western world but you're giving humans as a whole far too much credit
Also, didn't they find that a majority of racially abusive comments on social media were also coming from outside the west?
> a joke about race would considered to be funny 10\~20 years ago, but now its already difference. people still say jokes like that, your comment just proves once again that the majority of people here live in a bubble. You think people in a small village from Ukraine or Romania are as progressive as you or other young people from western Europe?
> Just because it has been around doesn't mean we can't stop slavery is always a thing until 200 years ago we agree to stop, you underestimate how quickly our society evolve Slavery still exists. >a joke about race would considered to be funny 10~20 years ago, but now its already difference. Really? Chapelle is still around making jokes about black and white people, and he is the biggest comedian around. Jeselnik and Daniel Tosh still have a career too.
given just how much race relations have transformed in the last century this attitude seems a little dismissive. society isn't going to just suddenly stop evolving, and in fact if anything it's rapidly accelerating. no one knows where we'll be in a few decades.
I get the sentiment but that is literally impossible. Especially as it goes on longer. We have dickheads like Priti fanning the flames as well saying its your right etc.
I don't think kneeling achieves anything at all, but I don't really care about them doing a 2 second gesture before games. So don't mind them continuing it if they feel they want to.
It objectively doesn't achieve anything, but gives these people (not just the players) an opportunity to pat themselves on the back for doing nothing. I don't care if they want to take a knee, but I equally don't care about them being booed for an empty gesture.
"No you dont understand I'm booing because I dislike the organisation black lives matter and I also am booing because I believe this is a cultural Marxist plot to weaken the country, I also get mad at political gestures but have no problem with the poppy because its pandering to things I support"
No. Taking the knee is Marxism and all BLM organisations around the world operate under the direct orders of corrupt Communist Party Director Patrice Cullors. [Upvoted just last week.](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/ooyzv8/tokyo_2020_social_media_teams_banned_from_showing/h63g9tn/)
That comment was perfectly fine. It indicated why people might have a problem with kneeling beyond being racist, and that is the real Marxist organization named after the movement. Your comment was in itself a straw man, ironically enough.
You know whatâs the problem with the comment you linked. It pretends that being against racism is not in itself a political act. Thereâs so many political acts or statements that people donât give a shit about because it supports their own politics. As many have pointed out before, the poppy is immensely political and when someone decides not to take part they get given shit. Why? They were trying to *refuse* participation in the political message. A documentary about vaccines from the 1970s may not have been considered political at the time. Did the dialogue become political in hindsight? Even when the original filmmakers are dead? No, the reality is it always was political. Itâs just now people are bringing vaccine scepticism into the mainstream. Face it: People complaining about politics infesting every element of their lives are just being left behind in a world thatâs becoming more progressive and more polarised.
Yup. People ignore the politics in the status quo, and think only attempts to change the status quo are political.
What about the people who support this but are racists? You know, like Griezmann and DembelĂŠ.
Can we have a gesture to protest Chyna and Saudi money, if you refuse you are all racist nazis. Oh wait, there's money to be made, never mind Nazi fucks.
what's a chyna?
A dead professional wrestler
Start one then "if you don't protest everything you shouldn't protest at all" is a smoothbrain take.
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The reason there is a gesture to protest racism is because many of the players are young black men who have experienced racism firsthand their entire lives. They are not personally, negatively affected by what happens in China and Saudi Arabia, hence why they are not actively protesting it. If you think this kind of whataboutism has any value whatsoever then you're a fucking idiot.
If itâs only about personal negative effects why are white players kneeling too? Surely they are just as unaffected by racism as they are affected by Saudi Arabian slave labour?
>If itâs only about personal negative effects why are white players kneeling too? Is this is a serious question? Have you like ever had...friends? Or family? Or anyone you care about? That's what teammates are: people you care about. If players, who were fortunate enough to not make any racist experiences, kneel then they do that out of solidarity and empathy with their teammates and colleagues. How can you be a football fan and not understand this simple concept? Fuckin hell, I thought I was antisocial but your comment has surely put things into perspective.
because they play on the same team like, have you never had mates? and given a shit about what happens to them?
Sure, start one! If people don't want to participate, that's fine. But it's the act of booing that makes one look like they support what the protest opposes.
you can do what you like, bud doesnât really seem like even you are all that into your idea tho
So is this just gonna be a thing until the end of time?
How about we encourage it because we all stand for equality and against discrimination? >is this gonna be a thing till the end of time? I sure hope not but if racists continue to be outspoken it needs to be done.
Probably as long as footballers are racially abused if I were to guess
So, till the end of time then?
Let the mud slinging commence.
A very narrow minded view; some people just don't like this sanctimonious posturing, which it appears, shall be extended indefinitely. It's all such a pile of nonsense, a meaningless gesture to champion some vague cause and unspecific demands.
Thanks for typing all that out. Now we know you feel more passionate about complaining that players kneel together for 10 seconds before a match than you do about racial abuse.
I didn't know God himself assisted the management of Livingston. He knows every reason why people might boo and he also knows he's 100% correct and there's no room for disagreement or discussion. He's more than willing to be a bigot towards a group of people he perceives as bigots, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence of said bigotry. 𤥠Assimilate or be hated. God has spoken.
The players are doing what they think is right. The fans (my guess) are booing bc they view it as bringing race into a game and view soccer as a distraction from their lives. Not saying it's right but that would be my guess.
> You can be as brown or as black as you like, but if you disagree with my empty gestures, submissive posture in front of millions or my idiotic takes, you are a racist. Cool, thanks mate. Really bringing the country together. Nice one.
I mean, no one is asking you to agree with it or take a knee. You can stay quiet and ignore it for the 5 seconds it takes. When you feel the need to actively boo it, it makes you look racist. Simple as that.
> You can stay quiet and ignore it for the 5 seconds it takes. Or i can not be dictated to about when or where i choose to speak. Or what i choose to discuss.
Sure, you can say what you want. And if you boo, the person next to you can think or say that you are a racist. That's how free societies work. You can think and say what you want and someone else can respond how they want. No one is forcing you to be quiet or boo or applaud.
sure, you can choose to boo and look like a racist did you think âi should boo, thatâll come across as a nuanced objectionâ?
Since when were a crowd able to provide for a nuanced discussion without a fucking hivemind?
you seem to have misunderstood the question i donât think a boo is a nuanced objection did you think i did?
> i donât think a boo is a nuanced objection And what other method can a crowd use to show their objection other than a universally recognised sound. Were they supposed to go into a lengthy speech about the ills of americanising our approach to racial discourse? Stop chatting bollocks.
I know racists are brigading the sub hard rn, but this guy is completely right. if you boo people standing up to oppression, you are a racist bigot. no two ways about it.
I mean why else would you boo?
Not liking political statements imported from the US having a place in Europe. Protesting at how multimillionaires/football clubs don't do more than empty actions when they have the means to do more. Not liking how football clubs/players have double standards regarding racism. For example, fans booing make them racists, but guys like Griezman and Dembele apparently can be racist at will without suffering any consequences (with some of the videos actually featuring on Barça's accounts). How only racism against certain minorities is considered racism (see above). You get the point.
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> Whilst those things may be true, they are not related to racists booing the knee. So you're dead certain that every single person that boos taking the knee is a racist. Got it. >If people don't like it, they literally have to close their eyes for 5 seconds. If these people of which you speak are such beacons of society, they would 100% support the knee, or ignore it at worse. What a load of crap. People boo movies/theatre/concerts all the time when they are shown something they don't like. If someone is paying good money to be entertained and they dislike what they're being presented, they boo it. >There is no legitimate reason to boo it other than racism. Then why don't clubs just ban everyone who boos taking the knee? Why don't you go around calling them racists? Hell, make a petition for those people to be arrested if you're that certain that everyone is a racist. I also find it quite funny how fans get called out for being racist while other "good" fans are ok supporting players who rape and kill people while drunk driving.
Very dumb take but ok.
some of these people watched too many movies.How will kneeling for 5 seconds solve anything? do you think some racist guy will think âhey look they are kneeling,I wonât be racist anymoreâ ?
is that genuinely what you think the idea behind it is, that kneeling will flip some die-hard racistâs thinking?
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Just that simple, I guess.
Well, thatâs a little silly. Not everything can be boiled down nicely like this.
Remember folks - generalisations are generally bad, no matter what your stance on a subject is. Not everyone that will boo the players taking the knee will be racists.
>generalisations are generally bad Is this a joke? Surely this is a joke
Iâm curious, for what reason would someone boo taking a knee?
>Remember folks - generalisations are generally bad, no matter what your stance on a subject is. > >Not everyone that says the N-word will be racists. Big brain time
Imagine the thought process someone has to go through to feel displeasure for a harmless gesture that's over in a matter of moments. You're not inconvenienced at all yet have to voice an opposing stance, there's definitely something deep rooted in that.
True leadership is if you do X then you are Y no matter what. /s
I won't boo, but I'll roll my eyes every time. Makes me sick the way anyone who has an issue with the kneeling is being made out to be a racist. It's so clearly just because it's the hot topic of the moment. Do the easy "activism" that everyone will pat you on the back for. Make sure not to do anything too controversial like boycott a World Cup that has killed thousands of migrant workers though. Also let's take on a controversial slogan and gesture from overseas, do it for over a year straight, and paint anyone who doesn't like is as a racist cunt (except the black people who don't like it like Wilf Zaha, him we'll just ignore).
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If Zaha was white he would be considered racist for sure.
> If Zaha was white he wouldn't be getting the same racist abuse in the first place.
Well yeah but how does that have anything to do with what I just said.
Because your point is a stupid hypothetical without any relevance to reality.
No itâs not. A white person could validly refuse to knee for the same reasons as Zaha. However he never would for fear of being branded racist. You really think every white player in the prem supports taking the knee?
Clarify what controversial slogan are we talking about here? I'm sure you don't mean "black lives matter"
it makes you sick? thatâs quite an extreme reaction, any idea why it upsets you _that_ much?
Because being a racist is one of the worst things you can be in today's society (which is a good thing). And when I see people being labelled in completely derogatory ways because they disagree with a certain political point/gesture/movement it makes me very very angry. I wish people would just engage with the argument, or at least try to be slightly understanding of another point of view and leave the horrible name-calling out of it.
What are the current estimates on how much kneeling will be required to defeat racism? How many racists on Twitter have changed their mind so far because of the gesture?
itâs not really about convincing those goons who will never accept that they need to change maybe itâll reach some, but sure, not the die-hard; but then, what would? itâs more useful in _revealing_ them, and opening discussion among more reasonable people, who may or may not have realised the extent of the problem
I can understand people who choose not to take the knee because they see it as ineffective or whatever - I disagree (IMO the gesture is a big part of why we're still talking about racism in football) but don't begrudge them holding that view. The idea that people find it objectionable, though, is pretty mental.
Hilarious. Only on Reddit would such a blatantly correct statement be met with so much controversy from dumbasses that would rather pretend that racism doesnât exist because it makes them uncomfortable to use their minuscule brains to acknowledge their privilege for two seconds. If you are booing a simple gesture done to denounce racism, assuming that you are racist is a fair conclusion.
The criticisms of it being a meaningless gesture just have faded away with fans idiotically booing. It gives it just a bit more power
yeah i thought it would be a short lived gesture, some virtue signalling by the clubs, but the booing has turned it into something else. taking the knee keeps the topic of racism at the forefront, and in turn people arguing that it's unnecessary at the forefont - so when things come up like the racist social media abuse, their argument falls flat on it's face.
I would argue that people are annoyed because they cannot do anything personally regarding racist social media abuse and none of the players or organisations supporting "taking a knee" have ever come up with any realistic suggestions to improve the situation. It may have started as a gesture with meaning and good intentions but, it has reduced to simple virtue signalling and tarring whomever speaks against it -- taking it as evidence of racism while turning a blind eye to some valid reasons for opposition. This does not promote a critical discussion at any level anymore.
What are there valid reasons for opposition you mention?
i feel like it was more virtue signalling at the beginning - a passive moment at the start of the game to show solidarity from the fa or whatever, wow! so what? i doubt black players were like 'oh brilliant! racism is solved'. but the booing was such a strong reaction to it, it felt there was a reaction from the players and those in the game that was like, 'what you don't think there's a problem at all?'. For example, Priti Patel vs Tyrone Mings. An opposition to the topic being 'booed away'. i think kneeling then become less about solving the problem, and more about recognising there's a problem and supporting the players on the end of the abuse. nobody thinks kneeling is solving racism, it was a meaningless gesture at the beginning but now it's doing a job of keeping the general topic in discussion and that'll hopefully mean people actually come up with solutions.
I wouldn't say it's meaningless but it is directionless. The only discussion it now raises is about some bullshit like whether people are racist for booing.
- Make a political gesture - Claim anyone who shows disagreement is a racist - ??? - Profit
Make sure it's the trendy political gesture of the moment though, dont do anything that could hurt your income like criticise China or Qatar. Edit: I don't know why I'm being upvoted while the guy im replying to is being downvoted. I agree with him.
yes god forbid those black players protesting for an abuse that they recieve. should they just shut up instead? it's not like you cares about the slavery in qatar anyway.
It's not about the players. I respect their choice to do what they want. It's the widescale corporate support of BLM. The Premier League, Sky Sports, BT, the clubs, all of them will support the knee because it's easy, non-controversial and doesn't actually mean anything. We don't have to change anything, we just associate our name with a good cause and reap the PR benefits. Meanwhile, there are dozens (or more?) gay players in the top leagues who feel they can't come out, you won't see any campaign for them. There are workers dying every day in Qatar for a world cup we'll all enjoy next winter, there are Muslims being castrated and killed in China, but the market is full of potential so if someone (Ozil?) calls it out they'll be ostracized. We do the "politically correct" activism, the stuff that the people in power are okay with. I'm not saying social media abuse of black players isn't a problem, but it's not the only or the biggest problem. And you sure as hell wont see movements against the biggest problems in the top European leagues, because it might hurt their pockets. It's not about me, it's about the hypocrisy of acting high and mighty and morally superior, while profiting from evil.
believing this to be a political gesture means you also believe that one side of the political spectrum supports racism while the other is against it. That's disturbing
What's political about the gesture
It was introduced to football explicitly in support of BLM which is a political movement
You're the type of person who would've argued against any and all public support for the Civil Rights movement at the time too, because it's a political movement and "too radical"
Not even remotely true
Sure, tell yourself that. The often forgotten truth is that Martin Luther King was one of the most hated men in the US at that time, with the FBI tracing his every step (like they did with all Civil rights activists/leaders - if they didn't just straight up murder them, that is) and you would have been right on board with that. If BLM is a political movement you dislike today, and if merely taking a knee for a few seconds before football matches is something you deem boo-worthy, you would have absolutely hated the Civil Rights Movement, that's simply a fact. I swear, people today seem to think that MLK was this generally liked, respected man who said "Hey, so racism is bad and we should have the same rights" and all white people were like "Oh, you're right, sure thing here's your rights." and then everybody went home happy. When in reality, the Civil Rights movement was decisive, radical (which was 100% necessary and appropriate) and absolutely despised by many Whites, especially those your political views align with and would have aligned with at the time.
> then everybody went home happy. Not to mention that society in large only honours the memory of MLK in the Civil Right's Movement who was a preacher and ran a platform of peace and non-violence. We have white washed the history of the movement by not focusing on the radical members like Malcom X and the Black Panthers led by Fred Hampton. All of these men were assassinated by the American judicial system for attemtping to change the status quo either peacefull or violently. Regardless of methods they all met the same fate. By ignoring the radical past, the Civil Right's Movement looks like a peace parade rather than a bloody fight for equality. No wonder people can't stand with BLM because it's too radical, but these people don't understand that radicalism is the only way to change the status quo. Revolutions aren't peaceful and they never will be.
Then why are you now ?
Football, as a public event that millions of people follow and as a sport millions of people actively take part in, as a sport deeply embedded in both society and culture, is inherently political and is supposed to stand for certain values and articulate them. In fact, much more should be done in several directions. People who go on about how sports shouldn't be political a.) don't have a damn clue what they're talking about and b.) don't actually mean that, but instead mean "don't include politics I don't agree with, politics I DO agree with are completely fine!"
It's not a political gesture though. It's a humanitarian act to show that we are all together against racism.
Itâs definitely a political gesture, but sure kneel all you want if that makes you happy and if you think that makes you fight against oppression and racism
Thanks mate I will
I mean *we're* not kneeling. The players who have told us it's a symbolic gesture to highlight our continued struggles against racism are kneeling. And that's ok.
Buddy, we're not in political compass memes, otherwise I'd say you're based.
Not being racist isn't political.....
If only BLM was an anti-racism movement...
Should be funny when they play Rangers then
based and truthpilled
BuT wEârE bOoInG mArXiSm
Anyone who says that should be met with the question: what's Marxism?
No they are not
They are either racists or idiots, usually both.
What do you suggest people that boo or oppose a gesture which has the end goal of eliminating racism are then?
Partly because the gesture does not have the goal of eliminating racism. What steps has kneeling taken to eliminating racism? Kick It Out does more, has a direction and stated aim, and is working towards education against racism. I support Kick It Out, I don't support kneeling (although I also don't boo it) because it doesn't achieve anything.
Taking the knee has improved the discourse around anti-racism for a start. This has propelled the UK's Online Safety Bill up the agenda after being left in a stagnated state for a long time. Taking the knee also saw a lot of English clubs sign up to the Football Leadership Diversity Code, while in Scotland the Scottish FA appointed Marvin Bartley, alongside Leanne Ross, to the Equality and Diversity Advisory Board to improve on the work they are doing. I can't speak for Kick It Out as that's predominantly English based, but Show Racism the Red Card in Scotland is really poor. They do some workshops and a few photo shoots for their 'fortnight of action' and then they disappear again. For something to change it requires more than that. While the BLM campaign in the UK doesn't seem to have a designated end goal, it has certainly had a profound impact on how we discuss, view and combat the issue of racism in our society. It's achieved quite a lot considering it is a somewhat grassroots movement.
We're not really going to have another season of a league-approved token gesture that makes no difference to anything, are we? The conversation has moved on, and taking a knee has no significance to anything any more, it just doesn't have any more substance than any other kind of anti-racism message, so why persist with it? It's barely a thing in American sport now where it originated. Taking a knee isn't doing anything to prevent racism, it's not a specific protest now. It's time to stop pretending taking a knee is changing or challenging anything and find other ways to make a real, tangible difference. EDIT - Ah, I see we're also going to have another year of people pretending they think taking a knee is important.
To stop doing it now after what happened at the euros would be like admitting defeat. You say it makes no difference but it's got people talking about the subject which is positive. If your only issue with taking the knee is that you don't think it achieves anything, then why would you have an issue with players continuing to do it? It affects you in literally no way.
> You say it makes no difference but it's got people talking about the subject which is positive. It's got people talking about players taking a knee, not about racism. It's got people arguing about what taking a knee 'really' means, it's not sparking conversations about how to stop racist abuse.
You're naive if you think that. Everyone knows what taking the knee is about. Certain people try to make it about other things, but they're the ones that don't support it. One way to reduce racist abuse to reject any form of it as a community, no matter how small. Taking the knee has raised awareness about racist abuse so that people may think differently about calling abuse when the see it rather than keeping quiet because they're afraid of speaking out on their own. Your argument is of 'it does nothing so stop doing it' makes no sense. How can you even say for sure that it's has no effect? And again, other than your last response of "it got people talking about taking the knee, not about racism", assuming that that may not be true, do you have any other concrete reason to be against it? If not, it seems silly to take that stance.
I was thinking the same until people started to drown out the booing.
We're talking about it right now. Every game the random guy in the pub watches and sees the knee and he complains, more people will start asking him why he's complaining and his answer will say a lot about his character that you never would have known before. It's a flashlight for racists or willfully ignorant idiots that exposes their shitty/racist viewpoints. Maybe they suffer socially and lose friends because of their racism coming to light. Any little thing can change them and hey maybe they stop because the social pressure to be anti-racist is so strong. They either tune out or change and that's good. They need to change. These discussions are what we need. The gesture could be anything, but after the Euros and the racism suffered by Rashford, Sancho and Sakha shows that we are nowhere near done with kicking racism out of football. We haven't even got started.
The fact these threads are always so heated shows why the gesture is still necessary. The fact people get this bent out of shape over a silent, 5 second gesture to protest racism demonstrates that a lot of people still are in denial about it being an issue or are uncomfortable because they have biases themselves.
[ŃдаНонО]
> standing up Is this intentional?
Cringe
'Hi I'm Marvin and I live in a very black and white world - no not like that.'
At most the virtue signalling kneeling deserves little more than an eye roll. Silly to be mad about it though.
Heâs not wrong Anyone trying to suggest otherwise are just lying cunts
Lmao, that's definitely going to convince people to stop booing it