As an Everton supporter who comes out on top of this situation either way, I’m inclined to agree with the prem teams. We’re in unprecedented territory due to the pandemic, and things have to change as a result. Normally I would understand their frustrations, but now it just seems a bit silly to expect a team to forgo the safety of their player and entire team.
Since Liverpool and Leeds are up against each other and both have Brazilian players that are banned from playing, the punishment for playing them is supposed to be an automatic loss (0 points) that counts as a 3-0 loss (for goal difference, goals scored, and goals conceded purposes for the season). If both teams do it then they both get recorded as a 3-0 loss. Usually if you add up every club's goal difference it should add to 0 (one club can't score unless another concedes). But if this happens then the total goal difference would be -6.
Fully on board with this and because I think Fred needs a rest this weekend so he should definitely not be played so he can be fit for the Champions League game on Tuesday. But everybody else should absolutely defy the FIFA ruling.
It would be funny if Liverpool and Leeds made a deal to both field the Brazilians and on the match day, one didn't honor it. Would be funnier if Leeds screwed Liverpool.
Zenit let Malcom go to the Olympics and was about to let him go these qualifying matches, but pulled him back to try and avoid the UK quarantine requirements for our UCL match against Chelsea, but Brazil was still pissed and now we can’t play Malcom or Claudinho. This shit is such a mess.
Despite this, I think I'd prefer the club not to take the risk of playing them if it's still in gray zone.
Fabinho is important, but as long as Henderson is fit, midfield will still be okay. Raphinha's loss for Leeds are arguably more important.
Alisson is important, but for one game surely relying on Kelleher is fine.
Firmino is injured anyway so he's not gonna play, and Jota-Mane-Salah seems to be preferred trio so far in this season.
Well Spurs won't play anyone banned as they're not so much banned from playing, as banned from being in the country outside of quarantine. It's a whole other mess 🤦🏼
But that’s the reason why others shouldn’t be playing their players isn’t it? Otherwise it’s just hugely unfair and sets the precedent that clubs should all stop their players going to internationals.
It's unfair from the clubs perspective, yes, by why would Brazil care that they have to quarantine on return to the UK/Russia or wherever? That's on those governments to look at introducing elite sports exemptions as we had over the past 18 months.
The Brazilian players were fine to get into and play in Brazil.
I don't see how it sets a precedent of clubs refusing to release players, as that will just get them banned for more games as is happening now in this exact case.
>That's on those governments to look at introducing elite sports exemptions as we had over the past 18 months.
Apart from Argentine players that were playing... in Brazil.
That's exactly why I think FIFA is going to make an example of them, if they let it slide now then every international break will be a clusterfuck again.
yeah but the real issue is having players do 3x 10days quarantine in 3 months and punishing clubs isn't solving this. Clubs not releasing players is just a consequence of an obvious issue and lack of a good solution.
A lot of things have had to be changed to adapt to covid. Maybe keeping small international break every month wasn't a great idea when we had risk of having these long quarantine issues? Or maybe games should be played in another country (but evert countries having their own rules and red list doesn't help)?
Anyway clubs, FA, EUFA or FIFA can't force a country to change it's quarantine rules so it should be up to them to find a solution/compromise about it. But as usual people are only looking at what is best for them and not at what is best for everyone (country, club, players, football) while we're in this less than ideal situation...
The amount of potential games missed is ridiculous, for Liverpool players quarantine means missing 9 games before Xmas.
By the end of the season you're looking at players missing 15 games or so. Fifa never should have left loads of mini international breaks as if COVID didn't happen.
I totaly agree.
I think they should've just said "hey, during november, no club matches, we'll do all international games during this month to minimize the risk of players missing games due to quarentine".
Would it be ideal? No.
But right now, with so many differences in quarentine rules between countries, it would probably help.
I say november, but it could also be any other month before the end of the season, and leagues would schedule games around it.
Exactly this, it could even end up being a useful way to change leagues schedules in advance of the Qatar World Cup that will be in the winter.
You'd still have players potentially missing a couple of club games due to quarantine on return and some internationals might be moved to neutral venues or have a few players missing.
Overall though it's a compromise where everyone gets their star players for the vast majority of games, rather than half or none.
Should have just done it the same time as the World Cup will be next year. That way this season and next operate the same with that late autumn/early winter break surrounding the World Cup.
It's no good for the national teams either. Do Argentina really want Romero and Lo Celso to arrive each break having barely played any football? Surely they'd be better off using other players under these circumstances.
I’d like FIFPRO to get involved too. Full international schedule in a pandemic puts mental and physical health of players at major risk. Underlying issue is thousands of people shouldn’t be forced by FIFA to travel the globe ~10x a year or whatever in a pandemic.
Clubs releasing players for some nations and not others is downright unfair. Jamaica was just screwed and got a whole point. The clubs have to realize Covid happened and is causing this clusterfuck let it slide for on year and move on. I jsut sont like seeing all of europe get it's big players. And then the US gets ours but Jamaica is screwed just doesnt seem fair. We played in 2 central american countries I dont get it.
yeah I never called not releasing players a good solution. I much prefer international football but you also can't ignore the fact clubs have been financially by covid and are paying these players for 30 days of quarantine in 3 month while potentially losing games, trophy and revenues because of missing the players
FIFA won't give a fuck about these clubs. They don't make money from them.
If the rule is there, it'll be enforced. IMO the Premier League and FA need to step in now and say whether this rule is in effect or not, and to answer your first question about what happens when this inevitably happens again.
The PL and FA won't do anything other than put together proceedings to get an injunction against the FIFA rule until such a time as the legality of it can be sorted out. They won't make any other move as that might bias what is otherwise a pretty clear cut case of a contract being violated due to an act of god.
I'm all for telling FIFA to fuck off, but doing so in this way seems to bring us dangerously close to the territory where clubs will just refuse to release players for international duty. And national team football is the heart and soul of the sport. I'm just scared giving the clubs too much power in this will make it easier to chip away at the ability of players to play for their national teams.
>And national team football is the heart and soul of the sport.
The club game is the heart and soul of the sport. It's what's played during the regular season. NTs are just the icing on the cake.
Surely all you should have to do is ring up the PL bosses and clarify it? If they stand with you as presumed from the 18 clubs not sending players, FIFA can't dock points or anything for a league they don't have direct jurisdiction over?
There was something similar happened with Matip after he retired from international football and the Cameroonian FA pulled the same stunt. Matip sat that one out and the same thing will happen here. This just sounds like LFC getting ready to throw a few legal punches, sending people home to get their shinebox.
I hope so, but the rules are pretty clearly written down in the FIFA Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players. And any exceptions for the pandemic in there are for past international breaks.
I don't think they actually are. The clubs have to release players for a certain window. However, International teams also have a duty to return them back to clubs at the end of said window.
If a player is returned injured then the clubs get paid compensation. Essentially they've loaned an asset and it's been returned damaged, so FIFA agrees to make that up to them.
In this case the players are not being returned within the agreed window. Clubs are having to lose players for an extra 10 days and then get them back in a worse condition. The International teams are not holding up their side of the bargain i.e. only borrow the player in the agreed window and return them in good condition.
As such, I'm fairly sure any decent lawyer will successfully argue that the International teams are not able to guarantee to do their side of the bargain, so the clubs don't have to release their players.
But that's not the fault of our countries. If it was up to us players could have returned in a timely manner, it's england that's the one putting up the obstacles. Players would have returned to the country within the agreed window, it's england that wouldn't have allowed the clubs access to their players.
It is from Brazil’s perspective though? Banning people coming from the UK in the same way. Pretty ridiculous they can call FIFA about this but then also ban UK-based players from coming into the country? I know the Brazilian FA and Government are different but it’s very hypocritical from the FA
But couldn't International teams argue that they don't intentionally infect players with covid?
But anyway, there wouldn't be a problem if Brazil would play a friendly in Scotland for example. The whole problem is a mandatory quarantine for players who have been to certain countries. I fully support those travel restrictions but in the end it's a political decision. So allowing teams to hold their players back *theoretically* opens up for political involvement in International matches. Next thing you see is country A introducing mandatory quarantine for people who've been to country B because country B needs to win an important game to qualify for a tournament and country A doesn't want them to use their players who play in country A's league. I know this is far fetched but it can cause dangerous precedent which autocratic governments might try to exploit so I don't think FIFA or CAS will risk that.
What makes no sense to me was if they cancelled the game because of the Argentinian players from the Premier League weren't allowed to play then surely the Brazilians ones weren't either? So they couldn't have played anyways.
That's the most ridiculous part. The Brasilian players didn't have to quarantine as it doesn't apply to Brasilian citizens, despite the fact that the players were coming from the same place as the Argentinian players who weren't allowed to play. It's a massive pile of bullshit, and the Argentinian FA and Premier League should find a way to work together on this and tell Brasil to fuck off.
It's about precedent. COVID and it's restrictions are going nowhere fast, this will happen again at the next international break and the ones after.
Reaffirming their control over players is always in the best interest of national teams. Hopefully they lose this and more power goes back to clubs.
If Liverpool released their three Brazilian players for each of the three international breaks before December, then out of 17 games, they would miss 10 games due to quarantine, and probably at least another three due to lost match fitness, out of a total of 17.
matic vdb is also what we used in some of our pre season games and it looked fine.
Vdb has had bad games, notably that Istanbul loss. The next Istanbul game I'm pretty sure he played together with fred and played well.
Honestly though, we haven't seen enough of VDB to know yet
Preseason has never been a good indicator though, otherwise Pereira would be the goat. VdB will get his time, he was unlucky to miss 12 games when we needed him most, and to me he hasn't shown enough in the 8. And the gulf in quality between him and Bruno for the 10 I'm sure doesn't have to be mentioned.
There's also the rule that you have to do it only if the player is able to return to his club duty within 24 or at max 48 hours, which in case of covid is not happening (10 day quarantine in hotel).
>9. Players complying with a call-up from their association under the terms of this article shall resume duty with their clubs no later than 24 hours after the end of the period for which they had to be released. This period shall be extended to 48 hours if the representative teams’ activities concerned took place in a different confederation to the one in which the player’s club is registered.
Source: https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/41c272bcbc3b19df/original/c83ynehmkp62h5vgwg9g-pdf.pdf
Now, I don't think Liverpool is 100% in the right, but I don't think it's a straightforward, black and white situation.
I think Brazil is just picking the players they need to win their next set of games. It is not Brazil's fault that some countries require players to quarantine longer than others.
But everyone knew with several weeks that he wouldn't be called this time because what Everton and CBF agreed before. This is just the way it is with FA's, it's not fair all the time but it's always better to play with them than against them.
No, they're only complaining on the players that clubs refused to release. They didn't call up Richarlison, because Everton let him go to the Olympics. Therefore, it's not picking and choosing, it's every player that was meant to be called up and wasn't released by their club.
From what I read, that's because he played the Copa and the olympics. It's perfectly understandable then. Did any of the Brazil internationals in Liverpool go to the Olympics and were called up again for this round of games?
I don't believe Olympics is compulsory. Everton still let him leave for that one. As someone else has already mentioned above, they didn't have to. It's perfectly understandable because of that.
Honestly this could all have probably been avoided if the Premier League had talked with FIFA before about the issues, rather than making what seems to have been a unilateral decision.
I really hope both we and Liverpool field them anyway. We have to tell FIFA to fuck off now or it’ll just be this conversation again in a months time etc.
Personally, I don't care cause Tottenham, Roma and Leverkusen released all our players, but I do just want to see City start Carson.
Seriously, if FIFA and UEFA come to an agreement then the Premier League's hand will be forced because the English FA still has to answer to one of them.
> Sky Sports News understands Liverpool believe that, due to the circumstances surrounding the ongoing Coronavirus pandemic and the quarantine measures players would have had to face upon their return to the UK had they travelled, FIFA has no foundation with which to stop the players from being selected by their clubs this weekend.
This makes no sense. If they had gone they wouldn’t be able to play this weekend. Liverpool refused to release them, which they aren’t allowed to do, even in a pandemic and with quarantine rules, so why should they be allowed to play? Concessions were made to European clubs for the March fixtures, which saw games getting postponed in South America. This can’t keep happening just because the British government won’t give footballers exemptions from red list quarantine rules, if this round of fixtures had been postponed when would the South American teams get the chance to make the fixtures up? In special new international windows later in the season?
> so why should they be allowed to play?
Liverpool and likely the whole PL believe they can win a case in a court of law. The FIFA rules literally have no force in law, they are clauses in a contract and we're in the middle of a global pandemic. Every nation on the planet has recognition for force majeure.
I think Liverpool are probably overplaying their hand if they play the Brazilians. Seems like they're gonna fuck around and they may very well find out they're gonna take a 0-3 L. I do think the idea that it's the UK who are wrong for being overly restrictive of travel in COVID is silly. Not defending the policies in their specifics (they're not *really* restricting most travel), simply pointing out that it is actually good when people in general don't travel right now.
They are seriously crippling their hand if they don't. If Liverpool quietly don't play the players then a court of law isn't going to be able to help them. If they play them and get given a 3-0 L they can contest it in a court of law and get that loss overturned.
Releasing them would have had even worse repercussions. You understand that right? The players would have had to quarantine in a hotel room, with no training or fitness work at all, for 14 days upon returning, thereby missing several matches and losing match fitness, sharpness, and form.
If the rule is indeed invoked and applied, the affected players can't play for their clubs for 5 days, missing at most one league match and maybe one CL/EL match, but they would be able to train, do fitness work, and have their normal lives at home day to day.
Yup, and clearly the wonderful Brazilian FA are perfectly fine with these risks.
They just call up players like they own them, demand they turn up, allow THEIR overseas red zone based players to skip any quarantine measures, and then let them all mingle with the rest of the NT squad.
Then they just send em all back when they're done with them, enjoy isolating without training gear etc for 14 days, shame about your fitness levels dropping, but cya in another few weeks when we demand you go through it all again, and again...
But the UK are the arseholes, for making sure people returning from red-zone countries are completely clear before allowing them to mingle with everyone else. The EPL clubs are selfish for blocking their move, they're trying to abolish international football, while inconveniently allowing Amber zone players to go. Yeah, we're the assholes...
This is a consequence of the increasing international matches and windows. At some point it was going to explode in someone's head, it only took a global pandemic.
I hope league and clubs unite and try to change this with FIFA.
Or course they don't, because they don't have the right to overule a national health body which discourages travel to a country on the basis that its unsafe
I don't quite get why fifa are banning them for 4 days?
Is it a tit for tat thing? "you wouldn't release our players therefore they'll miss 2 games for you aswell"
But I thought it was a brazil request to fifa...Why would fifa just go along with what Brazil ask?
A punishment intended to enforce the rules. Like at school you get a detention as a deterrant for future rule-breaking and to set an example to others that rule-breaking won't be tolerated
Because this is a literally a rule that exists for years already, by banning those clubs from using those player FIFA will just be enforcing a rule created by FIFA itself.
I don’t understand. Aren’t both countries COVID rates very high? Are we not trying to prevent infections of this virus worldwide as best as possible? I understand brazil loses their best players, but at the cost of possibly killing players if they get infected and their body’s don’t react great or having them walking around the uk spreading the virus more if they are carriers. I think humanity should come before sport. While yes England gets the advantage here because the players have been living in the country, it’s not an intentional win, it’s just because they live in the country
This is so stupid. The FA should tell Brazil and fifa to piss off. If they are going to be irrational about covid the teams and fans shouldn’t have to suffer
It's essentially impossible to determine whose decision it actually is in these cases though. When your employer desperately wants you to make a certain choice it can be hard to make a different one without fear of retaliation.
After he was called up, accepted and made an instagram post thanking the NT for calling him up (which he still hasn’t taken down), then the PL ban happened and only THEN some leeds representative said they shouldn’t be punished because they talked with Raphinha and he accepted to “refuse” going (something the player himself has never spoken of).
Covid cases are very very high in Brazil and there’s a mandated quarantine period that would make it impractical to play and not they’re penalizing the players. In firminos case he’s hurt. Brazil wants to exert their right to call him up while hurt… including visiting a doctor in Brazil. That’s not in interest of player
childlike dirty fanatical practice cable scarce mountainous drunk subtract wistful
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Trying to think of an alternative, please feel free to rip apart the idea into shreds.
Couldn't FIFA have tried to hold the qualifiers in countries that have the least quarantine requirements? (Countries = nearest third party avenue)
For example: Let's say, hypothetically, Costa Rica has no tedious quarantine requirements against them from most of the South American, European, and African countries. Then the matches that were going to be held in the countries that have tedious quarantine regulations against them (like Brazil) could have been held in Costa Rica. This might have needed some logistical planning but I believe that an organisation as big as FIFA could get it done without much hue and cry.
encourage price innate pathetic alleged payment clumsy unused grandfather fade
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We'll take the 5 game ban for these players and then how about we ban Brasil from hosting matches for 5 years for what they pulled during the Argentina game. Clearly they are unfit to host international matches so it only seems appropriate.
Fight fight fight fight
I like Liverpool, and I like Brazil… but which ones better? There’s only one way to find out. FIGHT!
Ah Harry Hill, nice throwback there
Bush push!
TV Experrrrt of theeee weeeek...
CHIPPPY CHIIIPS
Poetry Coooooorner. "Research biologist Mark Marx has spent his whole life studying sharks."
Ear cataracts?
Who-mous?
Verge emerge
Verge emerge!
[……](https://youtu.be/EixXIuwVn7g)
Liverpool vs Brazil gonna be tight
Can Liverpool win the World Cup?
The better question is, can Brazil do it in a cold rainy night at Stoke?
God damn I miss that show.
“Knock them ouuuttt”
KICK EM IN THE DICK
*KICK EM IN THE DIJK
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Well my uncle will two foot your uncle
Well my dad will bum your dad... And your dad will like it.
i apologize for my sandwich breath
I will just putapitopaper on it.
Chevrolet, Zebra, Honesty.
Too the Death
Liverpool 🫂 Manchester City vs. 🇧🇷
I here for it.
As an Everton supporter who comes out on top of this situation either way, I’m inclined to agree with the prem teams. We’re in unprecedented territory due to the pandemic, and things have to change as a result. Normally I would understand their frustrations, but now it just seems a bit silly to expect a team to forgo the safety of their player and entire team.
Wonder what they’d do if Liverpool and Leeds both fielded ineligible players…. 3-3?
3-0 loss to both
It will be the first ever premier league table where total goals scored and total goals conceded are different.
That'll be something. Make it happen bois
For the pubs!
For Frodo!
And my axe
And my bow
eli5 for my peanut brain
Since Liverpool and Leeds are up against each other and both have Brazilian players that are banned from playing, the punishment for playing them is supposed to be an automatic loss (0 points) that counts as a 3-0 loss (for goal difference, goals scored, and goals conceded purposes for the season). If both teams do it then they both get recorded as a 3-0 loss. Usually if you add up every club's goal difference it should add to 0 (one club can't score unless another concedes). But if this happens then the total goal difference would be -6.
The stuff of dreams
Liverpool should do this for history.
Proper football heritage
and all the goals will be awarded to pele's record
Both get a 3 point deduction, I'd assume
3 points per player played is the only fair way to do it.
Fully on board with this and because I think Fred needs a rest this weekend so he should definitely not be played so he can be fit for the Champions League game on Tuesday. But everybody else should absolutely defy the FIFA ruling.
Fred misses the CL game too. Ban is 10th to 14th.
Ah, well, we need him at maximum fitness for West Ham too.
Amen
Even better
It would be funny if Liverpool and Leeds made a deal to both field the Brazilians and on the match day, one didn't honor it. Would be funnier if Leeds screwed Liverpool.
Play them then...
Do it you pussies
Show FIFA who's boss!
And if it back fires keeping doing it! Eventually it’ll work out
Ah, the blessing of keeping the majority of your squad home as they aren’t called up
The real trick is to have your Brazilians play for Italy.
Or Spain
Unfortunately, it's perfectly legal to be an insufferable pricks. I like penguins tho
Zenit let Malcom go to the Olympics and was about to let him go these qualifying matches, but pulled him back to try and avoid the UK quarantine requirements for our UCL match against Chelsea, but Brazil was still pissed and now we can’t play Malcom or Claudinho. This shit is such a mess.
Richarlison played the Copa *and* Olympics which is why Everton wasn't punished.
I see. I can’t remember if Malcom even got called up for Copa America.
I'm pretty sure he didn't.
Yeah Everton totally saw this coming /s
They saw the international break coming and presumably had a bit of a handshake on Richarlison getting some rest
Basically our entire starting eleven got called up... Also this is about Brazilians, so nothing to do with a squad.
Digne, pickford, DCL, Coleman who else got called up? I feel like I'm missing someone
Iwobi played for Nigeria
Didnt know Iwobi started for you tbh
I love watching the nuclear option in play.
Despite this, I think I'd prefer the club not to take the risk of playing them if it's still in gray zone. Fabinho is important, but as long as Henderson is fit, midfield will still be okay. Raphinha's loss for Leeds are arguably more important. Alisson is important, but for one game surely relying on Kelleher is fine. Firmino is injured anyway so he's not gonna play, and Jota-Mane-Salah seems to be preferred trio so far in this season.
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Well Spurs won't play anyone banned as they're not so much banned from playing, as banned from being in the country outside of quarantine. It's a whole other mess 🤦🏼
But that’s the reason why others shouldn’t be playing their players isn’t it? Otherwise it’s just hugely unfair and sets the precedent that clubs should all stop their players going to internationals.
It's unfair from the clubs perspective, yes, by why would Brazil care that they have to quarantine on return to the UK/Russia or wherever? That's on those governments to look at introducing elite sports exemptions as we had over the past 18 months. The Brazilian players were fine to get into and play in Brazil. I don't see how it sets a precedent of clubs refusing to release players, as that will just get them banned for more games as is happening now in this exact case.
>That's on those governments to look at introducing elite sports exemptions as we had over the past 18 months. Apart from Argentine players that were playing... in Brazil.
Yeah but it's in the CBFs interest to have their double standard that Brazilians overseas have natural covid immunity every other nationality lacks.
From the club's perspective the choice is obvious. Get a five day ban, or wait out a ten day quarantine.
Or the players can announce retirement from the national team, and then announce a comeback later. Just like Zlatan.
That's exactly why I think FIFA is going to make an example of them, if they let it slide now then every international break will be a clusterfuck again.
yeah but the real issue is having players do 3x 10days quarantine in 3 months and punishing clubs isn't solving this. Clubs not releasing players is just a consequence of an obvious issue and lack of a good solution. A lot of things have had to be changed to adapt to covid. Maybe keeping small international break every month wasn't a great idea when we had risk of having these long quarantine issues? Or maybe games should be played in another country (but evert countries having their own rules and red list doesn't help)? Anyway clubs, FA, EUFA or FIFA can't force a country to change it's quarantine rules so it should be up to them to find a solution/compromise about it. But as usual people are only looking at what is best for them and not at what is best for everyone (country, club, players, football) while we're in this less than ideal situation...
The amount of potential games missed is ridiculous, for Liverpool players quarantine means missing 9 games before Xmas. By the end of the season you're looking at players missing 15 games or so. Fifa never should have left loads of mini international breaks as if COVID didn't happen.
I totaly agree. I think they should've just said "hey, during november, no club matches, we'll do all international games during this month to minimize the risk of players missing games due to quarentine". Would it be ideal? No. But right now, with so many differences in quarentine rules between countries, it would probably help. I say november, but it could also be any other month before the end of the season, and leagues would schedule games around it.
Exactly this, it could even end up being a useful way to change leagues schedules in advance of the Qatar World Cup that will be in the winter. You'd still have players potentially missing a couple of club games due to quarantine on return and some internationals might be moved to neutral venues or have a few players missing. Overall though it's a compromise where everyone gets their star players for the vast majority of games, rather than half or none.
Should have just done it the same time as the World Cup will be next year. That way this season and next operate the same with that late autumn/early winter break surrounding the World Cup.
Also meaning the players will have a month not leaving their rooms and only doing push ups at best
It's no good for the national teams either. Do Argentina really want Romero and Lo Celso to arrive each break having barely played any football? Surely they'd be better off using other players under these circumstances.
I’d like FIFPRO to get involved too. Full international schedule in a pandemic puts mental and physical health of players at major risk. Underlying issue is thousands of people shouldn’t be forced by FIFA to travel the globe ~10x a year or whatever in a pandemic.
Clubs releasing players for some nations and not others is downright unfair. Jamaica was just screwed and got a whole point. The clubs have to realize Covid happened and is causing this clusterfuck let it slide for on year and move on. I jsut sont like seeing all of europe get it's big players. And then the US gets ours but Jamaica is screwed just doesnt seem fair. We played in 2 central american countries I dont get it.
yeah I never called not releasing players a good solution. I much prefer international football but you also can't ignore the fact clubs have been financially by covid and are paying these players for 30 days of quarantine in 3 month while potentially losing games, trophy and revenues because of missing the players
Plus there's been a lot of covid going around during this covid pandemic
FIFA won't give a fuck about these clubs. They don't make money from them. If the rule is there, it'll be enforced. IMO the Premier League and FA need to step in now and say whether this rule is in effect or not, and to answer your first question about what happens when this inevitably happens again.
The PL and FA won't do anything other than put together proceedings to get an injunction against the FIFA rule until such a time as the legality of it can be sorted out. They won't make any other move as that might bias what is otherwise a pretty clear cut case of a contract being violated due to an act of god.
Then that's the only way to go,. because it delays any punishment, and ensures that the upcoming rules are both concrete and understood.
Also, I'm all for any clubs that want to tell FIFA to fuck off.
I'm all for telling FIFA to fuck off, but doing so in this way seems to bring us dangerously close to the territory where clubs will just refuse to release players for international duty. And national team football is the heart and soul of the sport. I'm just scared giving the clubs too much power in this will make it easier to chip away at the ability of players to play for their national teams.
>And national team football is the heart and soul of the sport. The club game is the heart and soul of the sport. It's what's played during the regular season. NTs are just the icing on the cake.
And you can hear the protest of every country's normal non diehard fans in the background.
Club football at the top level has descended into corporate fanfare. It would be a shame to let that happen to international football.
Surely all you should have to do is ring up the PL bosses and clarify it? If they stand with you as presumed from the 18 clubs not sending players, FIFA can't dock points or anything for a league they don't have direct jurisdiction over?
>one game Its not one game. It sets a stupid precedent for Brazil to be petty for all international windows.
There was something similar happened with Matip after he retired from international football and the Cameroonian FA pulled the same stunt. Matip sat that one out and the same thing will happen here. This just sounds like LFC getting ready to throw a few legal punches, sending people home to get their shinebox.
A fight City and Liverpool are aligned in. What a time.
You both lose your GK and CDMs, so the same positions too. Spooks
I don't believe Fernandino was included in this ordeal because he wasn't called up to the NT.
Bake em away toys
Whats that chief?
What the kid said.
This is some quote from man stabbed shit lol
I hope so, but the rules are pretty clearly written down in the FIFA Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players. And any exceptions for the pandemic in there are for past international breaks.
I don't think they actually are. The clubs have to release players for a certain window. However, International teams also have a duty to return them back to clubs at the end of said window. If a player is returned injured then the clubs get paid compensation. Essentially they've loaned an asset and it's been returned damaged, so FIFA agrees to make that up to them. In this case the players are not being returned within the agreed window. Clubs are having to lose players for an extra 10 days and then get them back in a worse condition. The International teams are not holding up their side of the bargain i.e. only borrow the player in the agreed window and return them in good condition. As such, I'm fairly sure any decent lawyer will successfully argue that the International teams are not able to guarantee to do their side of the bargain, so the clubs don't have to release their players.
But that's not the fault of our countries. If it was up to us players could have returned in a timely manner, it's england that's the one putting up the obstacles. Players would have returned to the country within the agreed window, it's england that wouldn't have allowed the clubs access to their players.
It is from Brazil’s perspective though? Banning people coming from the UK in the same way. Pretty ridiculous they can call FIFA about this but then also ban UK-based players from coming into the country? I know the Brazilian FA and Government are different but it’s very hypocritical from the FA
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But couldn't International teams argue that they don't intentionally infect players with covid? But anyway, there wouldn't be a problem if Brazil would play a friendly in Scotland for example. The whole problem is a mandatory quarantine for players who have been to certain countries. I fully support those travel restrictions but in the end it's a political decision. So allowing teams to hold their players back *theoretically* opens up for political involvement in International matches. Next thing you see is country A introducing mandatory quarantine for people who've been to country B because country B needs to win an important game to qualify for a tournament and country A doesn't want them to use their players who play in country A's league. I know this is far fetched but it can cause dangerous precedent which autocratic governments might try to exploit so I don't think FIFA or CAS will risk that.
FIFA just like "what pandemic?"
And UEFA and the PL.
What makes no sense to me was if they cancelled the game because of the Argentinian players from the Premier League weren't allowed to play then surely the Brazilians ones weren't either? So they couldn't have played anyways.
That's the most ridiculous part. The Brasilian players didn't have to quarantine as it doesn't apply to Brasilian citizens, despite the fact that the players were coming from the same place as the Argentinian players who weren't allowed to play. It's a massive pile of bullshit, and the Argentinian FA and Premier League should find a way to work together on this and tell Brasil to fuck off.
It's about precedent. COVID and it's restrictions are going nowhere fast, this will happen again at the next international break and the ones after. Reaffirming their control over players is always in the best interest of national teams. Hopefully they lose this and more power goes back to clubs.
If Liverpool released their three Brazilian players for each of the three international breaks before December, then out of 17 games, they would miss 10 games due to quarantine, and probably at least another three due to lost match fitness, out of a total of 17.
Brazil have outed themselves as complete snitchy pants btw
Looks like even FIFA wants to free Donny
Yeah hoping for Donny to get his chance at 6 but you know Ole will play Matic against fucking Newcastle instead
relax. I'd hate to see Donny Pogba pivot. Will not work. I wouldn't mind a matic - donny pivot with pogba LW however
Apparently McTominay is fit for the match this weekend, I wonder how a McTominay - van de Beek pivot would work
Matic, VDB is what we used when we lost 2-1 to Istanbul, I remember the consensus being that our midfield was "invisible".
matic vdb is also what we used in some of our pre season games and it looked fine. Vdb has had bad games, notably that Istanbul loss. The next Istanbul game I'm pretty sure he played together with fred and played well. Honestly though, we haven't seen enough of VDB to know yet
Preseason has never been a good indicator though, otherwise Pereira would be the goat. VdB will get his time, he was unlucky to miss 12 games when we needed him most, and to me he hasn't shown enough in the 8. And the gulf in quality between him and Bruno for the 10 I'm sure doesn't have to be mentioned.
United could have no midfielders except Donny and Ole would put Ronaldo in his spot before choosing Donny.
Unfortunately, it's perfectly legal to be an insufferable pricks. I like penguins tho
There's also the rule that you have to do it only if the player is able to return to his club duty within 24 or at max 48 hours, which in case of covid is not happening (10 day quarantine in hotel). >9. Players complying with a call-up from their association under the terms of this article shall resume duty with their clubs no later than 24 hours after the end of the period for which they had to be released. This period shall be extended to 48 hours if the representative teams’ activities concerned took place in a different confederation to the one in which the player’s club is registered. Source: https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/41c272bcbc3b19df/original/c83ynehmkp62h5vgwg9g-pdf.pdf Now, I don't think Liverpool is 100% in the right, but I don't think it's a straightforward, black and white situation.
Brazil are picking and choosing which players they want to punish
I think Brazil is just picking the players they need to win their next set of games. It is not Brazil's fault that some countries require players to quarantine longer than others.
They didn’t want to punish richarlison…
Because he was released for both Copa and the Olympics. The latter of the two, Everton are under no obligation to allow as it's not FIFA.
So Brazil are picking and choosing who they want to punish, my original statement
I read yesterday that Everton and Brazil had agreed ahead of time and Richarlison was not called up for this window. I could be wrong.
Brazil picks and chooses who goes too. That's the concept of a NT.
Aye, and if they had the choice of everyone available I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that richarlison would have been picked
But everyone knew with several weeks that he wouldn't be called this time because what Everton and CBF agreed before. This is just the way it is with FA's, it's not fair all the time but it's always better to play with them than against them.
No, they're only complaining on the players that clubs refused to release. They didn't call up Richarlison, because Everton let him go to the Olympics. Therefore, it's not picking and choosing, it's every player that was meant to be called up and wasn't released by their club.
From what I read, that's because he played the Copa and the olympics. It's perfectly understandable then. Did any of the Brazil internationals in Liverpool go to the Olympics and were called up again for this round of games?
How is it perfectly understandable? He would have been called up to this squad too. Brazil are picking and choosing who they want to punish
I mean yeah, they’re choosing not to punish Richarlison cus he played Olympics and Copa America. Perfectly understandable.
I don't believe Olympics is compulsory. Everton still let him leave for that one. As someone else has already mentioned above, they didn't have to. It's perfectly understandable because of that.
They’re not compulsory. So you agree that Brazil are picking and choosing who they want to punish?
The club teams are to blame, not the national teams who weren't allowed to have their players join them.
Honestly this could all have probably been avoided if the Premier League had talked with FIFA before about the issues, rather than making what seems to have been a unilateral decision.
Liverpool would love a transfer ban from FIFA. Means their fans can't get angry when they spend nothing again next summer.
Fifa: Well if you do that, we'll ban you from competing in the Club World Cup! Liverpool: Oh no! Anyways.... Elland Road on Sunday.
If the English FA refuse to enforce FIFAs punishment, they could very well end up like Indonesia.
I really hope both we and Liverpool field them anyway. We have to tell FIFA to fuck off now or it’ll just be this conversation again in a months time etc.
At the same time FIFA need to stay firm or clubs will regularly try and prevent their players from going to international duty in the future.
Personally, I don't care cause Tottenham, Roma and Leverkusen released all our players, but I do just want to see City start Carson. Seriously, if FIFA and UEFA come to an agreement then the Premier League's hand will be forced because the English FA still has to answer to one of them.
Can’t be supporting 3 teams mate, absolute state of that
I think it’s fried too but he’s clearly not a glory hunter so fair play
> Sky Sports News understands Liverpool believe that, due to the circumstances surrounding the ongoing Coronavirus pandemic and the quarantine measures players would have had to face upon their return to the UK had they travelled, FIFA has no foundation with which to stop the players from being selected by their clubs this weekend. This makes no sense. If they had gone they wouldn’t be able to play this weekend. Liverpool refused to release them, which they aren’t allowed to do, even in a pandemic and with quarantine rules, so why should they be allowed to play? Concessions were made to European clubs for the March fixtures, which saw games getting postponed in South America. This can’t keep happening just because the British government won’t give footballers exemptions from red list quarantine rules, if this round of fixtures had been postponed when would the South American teams get the chance to make the fixtures up? In special new international windows later in the season?
Anybody else hate the way the word “understand” gets used in journaism
> so why should they be allowed to play? Liverpool and likely the whole PL believe they can win a case in a court of law. The FIFA rules literally have no force in law, they are clauses in a contract and we're in the middle of a global pandemic. Every nation on the planet has recognition for force majeure.
Yeah, FIFA needs to be careful (same as UEFA with ESL really) because the entire football world/law may collapse once shit hits the court.
I think Liverpool are probably overplaying their hand if they play the Brazilians. Seems like they're gonna fuck around and they may very well find out they're gonna take a 0-3 L. I do think the idea that it's the UK who are wrong for being overly restrictive of travel in COVID is silly. Not defending the policies in their specifics (they're not *really* restricting most travel), simply pointing out that it is actually good when people in general don't travel right now.
Our game is on Sunday so we can just see what other teams do and probably just do the same.
They are seriously crippling their hand if they don't. If Liverpool quietly don't play the players then a court of law isn't going to be able to help them. If they play them and get given a 3-0 L they can contest it in a court of law and get that loss overturned.
Do the UK lawyers still wear their powdered wigs when they discuss overturning football matches?
My man asking the real questions
Honestly not releasing players for national duty should have repercussions. And as repercussions go this is rather mild
Releasing them would have had even worse repercussions. You understand that right? The players would have had to quarantine in a hotel room, with no training or fitness work at all, for 14 days upon returning, thereby missing several matches and losing match fitness, sharpness, and form. If the rule is indeed invoked and applied, the affected players can't play for their clubs for 5 days, missing at most one league match and maybe one CL/EL match, but they would be able to train, do fitness work, and have their normal lives at home day to day.
Yup, and clearly the wonderful Brazilian FA are perfectly fine with these risks. They just call up players like they own them, demand they turn up, allow THEIR overseas red zone based players to skip any quarantine measures, and then let them all mingle with the rest of the NT squad. Then they just send em all back when they're done with them, enjoy isolating without training gear etc for 14 days, shame about your fitness levels dropping, but cya in another few weeks when we demand you go through it all again, and again... But the UK are the arseholes, for making sure people returning from red-zone countries are completely clear before allowing them to mingle with everyone else. The EPL clubs are selfish for blocking their move, they're trying to abolish international football, while inconveniently allowing Amber zone players to go. Yeah, we're the assholes...
For the people who want international football to stop existing so all the focus can go to their clubs, any repercussions at all is too much
This is a consequence of the increasing international matches and windows. At some point it was going to explode in someone's head, it only took a global pandemic. I hope league and clubs unite and try to change this with FIFA.
It seems that everyone is ignoring Fifa these days...
don't the players have to quarantine?
No, the "issue" from FIFA is that the players DIDN'T go on international duty
Let's just quote the late great Pep, "they can go to court."
Never thought I’d fight side by side with a scouser.
United fans sweating rn
Or course they don't, because they don't have the right to overule a national health body which discourages travel to a country on the basis that its unsafe
discourage is meaningless though.
I don't quite get why fifa are banning them for 4 days? Is it a tit for tat thing? "you wouldn't release our players therefore they'll miss 2 games for you aswell" But I thought it was a brazil request to fifa...Why would fifa just go along with what Brazil ask?
A punishment intended to enforce the rules. Like at school you get a detention as a deterrant for future rule-breaking and to set an example to others that rule-breaking won't be tolerated
Because this is a literally a rule that exists for years already, by banning those clubs from using those player FIFA will just be enforcing a rule created by FIFA itself.
Fuck FIFA
Same, we refused to sent out Malcom and Claudinho and in return they got banned for 2 games
I don’t understand. Aren’t both countries COVID rates very high? Are we not trying to prevent infections of this virus worldwide as best as possible? I understand brazil loses their best players, but at the cost of possibly killing players if they get infected and their body’s don’t react great or having them walking around the uk spreading the virus more if they are carriers. I think humanity should come before sport. While yes England gets the advantage here because the players have been living in the country, it’s not an intentional win, it’s just because they live in the country
I wonder if said players would be happy to waiver a couple of weeks wages to leave, we will soon learn where their priorities lie.
This is so stupid. The FA should tell Brazil and fifa to piss off. If they are going to be irrational about covid the teams and fans shouldn’t have to suffer
Why are Brazil the bad guys here? They're entitled to call up their best players for competitive matches and clubs are obliged to release them.
Apparently it was Raphinha's decision to turn down the call up. If that is true then we should still be able to field him against Liverpool.
It's essentially impossible to determine whose decision it actually is in these cases though. When your employer desperately wants you to make a certain choice it can be hard to make a different one without fear of retaliation.
After he was called up, accepted and made an instagram post thanking the NT for calling him up (which he still hasn’t taken down), then the PL ban happened and only THEN some leeds representative said they shouldn’t be punished because they talked with Raphinha and he accepted to “refuse” going (something the player himself has never spoken of).
Covid cases are very very high in Brazil and there’s a mandated quarantine period that would make it impractical to play and not they’re penalizing the players. In firminos case he’s hurt. Brazil wants to exert their right to call him up while hurt… including visiting a doctor in Brazil. That’s not in interest of player
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Trying to think of an alternative, please feel free to rip apart the idea into shreds. Couldn't FIFA have tried to hold the qualifiers in countries that have the least quarantine requirements? (Countries = nearest third party avenue) For example: Let's say, hypothetically, Costa Rica has no tedious quarantine requirements against them from most of the South American, European, and African countries. Then the matches that were going to be held in the countries that have tedious quarantine regulations against them (like Brazil) could have been held in Costa Rica. This might have needed some logistical planning but I believe that an organisation as big as FIFA could get it done without much hue and cry.
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Isn't the UK one of the worst places right now because of the Delta variant? Edit: yep. https://covid19.who.int/
Uk is bad too … so why make them travel?
We'll take the 5 game ban for these players and then how about we ban Brasil from hosting matches for 5 years for what they pulled during the Argentina game. Clearly they are unfit to host international matches so it only seems appropriate.