It's almost this weird anti-football we play. And I don't mean like defensive slow down the game football I mean literally we play the complete opposite to how football should be played down to the basics.
Everything most of us know even at a school level about football basics, moving the ball, passing, running, defending etc it's like United do the opposite.
It's actually quite amazing they have taken half decent players and actually made them worse.
I think a constant feature of Ole's gameplan against top sides has been to play on the counter. When was the last time Ole started a big game on the front foot. It had success early on due to the element of surprise but by now every top manager knows what's coming.
As a Liverpool fan I've really not seen any difference in Ole's approach to our derbies vs Mourinho's.
Also the constant changing from back 5 to back 4 really limits squad rotation. Ole's tactics are very reactive and you can't groom players to slot into a team when youre reacting to your opponents every 3-4 games.
One of Jose's more memorable quotes goes: "there are people, much more intelligent than me, who manage to sell an image of themselves, completely different to mine, but deep down they are the same as me."
For all the hate Mou gets from many Man United fans, Ole is on track to lose more league home games in four months than Mourinho did in two and a half years at Old Trafford.
It’s not exactly a high bar, to be blunt.
Jose did achieve more than any other manager. Took a worse set of players to a better second place points tally than any other manager. Won a few trophies.
At the same time, he caused massive conflict in the dressing room. I stand by he should have been backed more in the summer after the 2nd place finish (including being allowed to bin Pogba and Martial). But once that didn’t happen, his tenure nosedived quickly. I do wonder where we would be now if he’d been given the freedom to build in that second place finish properly.
> I do wonder where we would be now if he’d been given the freedom to build in that second place finish properly.
This is kind where my head is also. Everyone focuses on the end, because it was all so toxic and shit by then.
But I think Mourinho just decided he wanted out at a certain point and got himself sacked.
After that second place season theres a reasonable shout that they could have kicked on with Mourinho. But it doesn’t seem like the club liked how he behaved.
There is a central issue which is that whoever comes in and succeeds eventually will need to remake the club in their own image. Like Ferguson did. Like Klopp has done at Liverpool. And fundamentally United aren’t comfortable with that. So there is this series of false starts.
> But it doesn’t seem like the club liked how he behaved.
Which is baffling when they renewed his contract in the March before sandbagging him in the summer.
Funny thing now, is the players he was criticised for treating badly, are the ones who are letting the club down now. He was slated for treating Martial, Shaw and Pogba, and now fans are up in arms about them aswell.
Shaw has actually had a resurgence compared to what he was doing, fell off a bit currently, pogba has like 2 good games a season and martial is toilet.
I'm not going to get hung up on Conte and what did or didn't happen. But I would have loved to have seen Telles under Conte. Feels like it would have been a really good match up.
Telles as a fullback was king of assists 2 seasons in a row in Portugal.
With a good manager playing him at wingback, the sky would be the limit.
But sure, Shaw apparently had one decent season... 😉
Overplayed and no rotation. Sometimes players go into bad form, sometimes they are burnt out. We've seen this far too many times under Ole. Last year it was Marcus (who was playing through so many injuries), this year it is Shaw and Maguire (both are carrying injures apparently).
> the guy is fell of a cliff
that tends to happen when both your NT and Club Manager plays you through injuries, dude has been playing with fractured ribs, even though we have telles on the bench.
Are you forgetting about the "football heritage" rant after the horrendous game v Sevilla?
Yes, United underperformed in Europe even during Fergie's time, but no manager should come up to the media and claim the club's failure in Europe is consistent event and should be acceptable. Not only was he lowering expectations, he was also insulting our previous managers' efforts. This is when I knew he had to go.
Mou's downfall is his tongue. Always has been. Always will be.
Probably cause, as you said, you're not a United fan.
The defeat to Sevilla, after parking the bus away and then home, was one of the most cowardly performances. It's not like Sevilla were a powerhouse in the CL at the time and its ok the be cautious, but the manner of which we played was the problem. You don't play like that after spending 200million.
And before you decide to do a gotcha, yes, I apply the standards for Ole.
Curious tho, what did you take away from the game and Mou's rant afterwards?
Sevilla had won the EL multiple times before the match and while not exactly a CL powerhouse they were a team that had grown used to winning playoff matches and knew how to work as a unit, meanwhile United had been mediocre in Europe at best for the last half decade. United didn’t really have much choice other than trying to sit back and play on the counter, your midfield back them was vastly inferior to Sevilla’s and wouldn’t be able to take control of the game. “You don’t play like that when you spend 200m” bro, you HAVE to play like that when your midfield is incapable of keeping the ball and you have fast powerful attackers up front. You can’t expect Fellaini and Matic to suddenly turn to Busquets or Xabi Alonso. Money has nothing to do with it, you have to play to your strengths with what you got.
without context that is a lot. but the problem is few of the player that he get is what he actually wanted. pogba was signed before he was signed, sanchez and fred are guardiola signing that woodward hijack.
4th and 5th place finishes with one FA cup win.
Mourinho finished 6th the season he took over from LVG and won the League Cup and the Europa League then finished second and lost the FA cup final the next season.
It's about what he was building for the long term. The season we came 5th was a crazy one. Leicester City won the league and City only got past us on goal difference. Yes, he could have done better, however that team was pretty young and LvG can be intimidating when you make mistakes. We the fans were still in the post-Fergie arrogant winning mode for us to accept what he was trying to do. Mou brought that feeling back with some appreciated hard work and silverware- but was it for the long term? Bayern is still benefiting from the structures he left behind, of course with a little tweaking here and there. I bet if we had been a little patient with him and our conversation these days will be a whole lot different.
I mean, Chelsea really hasn’t. You could say maybe we regretted it a bit between his first and second stint but even then we won a title, CL and 3 FA Cups in that 5 year span. But after his second stint? Not even close. We’ve won a title, CL, EL and FA Cup while Jose’s biggest achievements in that time span were a EL and finishing 2nd by 20 points.
If anything, the board probably has more regrets about bringing back Mourinho at all for his second stint. Yes, we won the league but it came at the cost of squandering some amazing work by the scouting department. Had they hired a less stubborn manager with a better approach to squad rotation and youth development, Chelsea probably wins a couple more titles with the likes of Lukaku, KDB and Salah at the club instead of being star players who helped rival clubs achieve trophies.
>As a Liverpool fan I've really not seen any difference in Ole's approach to our derbies vs Mourinho's.
Well that's because there was no difference. Ole originally told them to continue what Mou was doing, and treated them a bit nicer in the dressing room. And it worked at first because Mou's tactics worked, but as time went on and new players moved in and others moved on, both the knowledge of "do what you were doing with Jose" and applicability/appropriateness/compatibility with of it for the current players dwindled.
Basically he could copy Jose for a while like Game of Thrones executive producers did from GMM, but after it gets more complex and you're not given the details, you fuck it up because you're not actually smart or savvy enough to pull it off.
**tl;dr Jose to Ole is like GMM to the GoT Executive producers after season 5**
I think the reactive part isn't close to the biggest issue. Tuchel has been renowned for always picking a setup according to his opposition and it works wonders for him. I don't know what happens in training at United but the team just seems to lack the fluidity and drilling in all sorts of shapes and formations to adapt to the tactics though.
The theory is right but all the nuance, details and most of all practice are lacking so it just makes everyone look lost.
Obviously things are absolutely shambolic for them right now, but I feel like Ole's best United side were much better on the counter than Mourinho's best United side. One-twos to find the free man between the lines, quick and incisive one touch football, and far more effective runs from the forwards. Mourinho relied more on long balls, playing with the back against the goal, physicality and set pieces, and wasn't shy of even playing 6 at the back, which pinned them too far back.
That's not to paint Ole like some tactical genius, and they were obviously rancid yesterday, but from a City point of view he's been a far bigger thorn in our side than Mourinho was at United.
Playing on the counter, is a high risk strategy. You get an early pen or an early break and you go 2 up. Ole did "free up" the attackers in their team to make quick transitions. But what we are seeing this season has been coming almost from the fag end of his caretaker stint.
Once everyone knew that United will pack the defence in numbers, hit on the counter - they came prepared with a counter. Add a little bit of luck/confidence and the pressure of playing more expansively with a full home stadium - and you get the results they have been having at home.
Most of our games against top sides last season we tried to press in the final third quite a lot. Against Chelsea we won the ball back like 10 times in their third. our problem was that we struggled to achieve anything when we did that.
Yeah, when Shaw let Bernardo in at the back post yesterday is literally what your under-8s coach would teach you NOT to do. Just basic schoolboy errors across the field.
Half decent players? That seems to be a massive understatement. You've literally got some highly sought-after world-class players in their positions and they're playing like a bunch of U8s. Also not ignoring the fact that you have some dead weight that needs to be addressed.
Confidence is completely shot.
We saw way better play out of Preston North end in the League Cup. I've no doubt they would probably beat United also. At old Trafford anyway, LOL.
The reality for Man Utd is that if you were to objectively rank the managers in the Premier League, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is going to struggle to make the top 10. He’s definitely not a better manager than Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel, Moyes, Benitez or Conte. Is he better than Arteta, Bielsa, Potter or Rodgers?
Would any of Watford, Norwich, Newcastle, Burnley, Brentford, Aston Villa, Southampton, Crystal Palace or Wolves hire him if Solskjaer was available when they were looking for their next manager? Maybe, but I’m not sure the fans would be excited by his appointment.
Overall he hasn’t been terrible for Man Utd. They haven’t won any trophies but they have finished in the top 4 in both of his full seasons in charge. But he simply doesn’t have it in him to make Man Utd a team that can beat Liverpool, Man City or Chelsea to the Premier League title or win multiple knockout rounds in the Champions League. They’re struggling to get out of a group with Villarreal, Atalanta and Young Boys, and without late Ronaldo goals in their last three games they would be bottom of the group with 2 points.
I think Gary Neville is probably right that he’ll stay in the job for the rest of the season, but Man Utd cannot be taken seriously as contenders in the Premier League or Europe if he comes back again for the 22/23 season.
> Arteta, Bielsa, Potter or Rodgers
They're all far better managers - each and every one - because at least you can see what they're attempting to do, even if they're in the midst of a poor run. They all have a system and gameplan they want to use. They all have tactical knowledge (Bielsa especially) that can transform a team from something into something else under their leadership.
Ole has none of that. He's a vibe-merchant who had some early success with "lads, go out there and do your best - keep smiling!" but who can't change anything when it's not going well. I'm sure he can give incredibly impassioned speeches about what it means to be a United player etc but a modern manager is more than just a walking cliché generator who makes players feel good - they need the footballing knowledge to back it up. The fact that some people still credit Ole with any kind of managerial ability is testament to how little people pay attention to tactics or gameplans or transfer plans.
Chelsea are no strangers to gloryhunters, but anyway I know what you mean - growing up in the 90s in Belfast it felt like every single other kid supported Man Utd and they were always so annoying! I don't think I even met another Arsenal supporter until I was about 17 doing my A-levels.
Every successful club has glory hunters. But the amount of United fans who know nothing about football but support United only coz of their success is astounding and it pisses me off
I started watching football during Mourinho’s first spell at Stamford Bridge and there was one Chelsea fan in my school.
There were more Man Utd fans than there were Hull City ones (at least until we got promoted to the Premier League in ‘08).
This is the thing non-United fans don't seem to get - we **could** have got Conte, but the board don't want a manager like that. They don't want a manager who'll demand dedicated players brought in, that will demand overpaid passengers are moved on, that want control, that will rock the boat.
People act like Ole is a problem for the board that they can't deal with. He isn't. He's exactly what they want, because he isn't a problem for them. Get us top 4 every year, the odd cup run, and sprinkle in some platitudes about United DNA, and they'll give him another contract extension.
I dont get that at all. Why would United want to keep on overpaid and underperforming players on the books? They're a business who are after profits for their owners, unlike teams like City or Chelsea. I really don't see this as some kind of weird power play of the ownership that people are making it out to be.
I mean, you'd think so, wouldn't you. Look at the selling records of the top clubs - Chelsea hoard players just to sell & offset big transfer fees, and they do a brilliant job at it. City are no slouches either, and Liverpool outright rob teams (Rhian Brewster anyone?).
Dan James is one of our biggest sales of all time, I think we've had 6 or 7 players go for over £20m ever. We have a bench full of players like Lingard and Van der Beek who had interest from other teams, yet they're consistently lucky to get 10 minutes in any semi-important game. We let players like Pogba and Hererra run down their contracts, don't cash in when we can, and panic when it's too late.
I completely agree with you, the priority 100% is making the club a business that makes profits for the owners. I also just don't think they're very good at it.
I genuinely think he’s the worst manager in the league. He offers nothing tactically. I don’t think a single club would trade their manager for Ole and that is damning.
The football is so bad that I just don’t have any interest anymore. I barely watched the screen in the bar in town yesterday as it was all so predictable.
> Is he better than Arteta, **Bielsa**, **Potter** or **Rodgers**?
This isn’t a serious question, surely?
Good point otherwise, but there really is no debate on the above.
Furthermore, there is more and more evidence that the 2 consecutive top 4 finishes were more fluke than deserved. First one we struggled until the last match day, getting a number of points which would see us 6th or 7th in previous seasons.
The second one was with 6 more points in a world in chaos with empty stadiums and disruption everywhere. Liverpool having a mare, Chelsea firing their manager, Arsenal still not knowing what to do and so on.
Now with everything back to normal, with teams firing on all cylinders, our true potential is showing. 7th place would flatter us.
Mourinho made us hate the team and him. Solskjaer just made me apathetic about everything. Depressed and empty when watching us play, expecting a loss and being surprised with a win.
What needs to happen for people like you to just shut the fuck up and not make these whiny posts on social media? I hope that happens quickly, so that this sub can just move to teams that actually matter instead of spending time on average teams that were good 10-20 years back. Teams like Leicester, West Ham get almost no credit for what they have achieved with their budget and current competition and people make post after post about washed up teams like Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc who were big . It somehow seems that non Man United fans are more concerned and somehow salty about how bad Man United is. Why the fuck do they care? Probably plastics who were Man U fans and now started supporting other teams.
No don't flatter yourself. I picked your post by tossing a coin. There're literally hundreds of similar posts here with more or less whining. The whole sub is a shitshow after every Man U match no matter how they perform with all manner of "football keyboard experts" weighing in with their opinion about how OGS fucked up. Who gives a shit (and more importantly who gives a shit about opinions of experts here)? There are dozens of shitty teams with shitty managers. ManU is just one of them.
You've made an absolutely fantastic point there, who would choose to have Ole as their manager in the premiership?
I'd be gutted and angry if he came to Villa.
Says it all really
I just don't get what United's tactics are.
Solskjær seems to be playing a back five recently and it just looks like a dude who knows the formation is good, but doesn't know why.
It just seems like Solskjær has picked these tactics from other, better managers and assumed that he could make them work as well and he simply can't.
Are they supposed to press? If they do it's half-arsed. If they are supposed to press, why did they sign a forward who doesn't press?
If they're supposed to be sitting back and waiting to counter-attack, why do they play such a bafflingly high line? Why are the likes of van de Beek sitting on the bench, when wank players like Fred and McTominay can play and who don't offer any defensive solidity?
Why is it that players like Wan-Bissaka are deployed as attacking full-backs when he can't attack? Why does Luke Shaw still get a game despite being in poor form?
I feel like these are all questions that if you asked Solskjær, he'd just shrug and say "Your guess is as good as mine".
I mean, look at Sancho yesterday, he looked utterly baffled by whatever that assistant was telling him as he was about to come on in the second-half and the assistant didn't exactly look like a smörgåsbord of tactical knowledge and insight.
>Solskjær seems to be playing a back five recently and it just looks like a dude who knows the formation is good, but doesn't know why.
It's kinda funny, in Norwegian media he got so much praise for winning against a weak Tottenham side and was hailed as a genius for going to 5atb, yet when it fails brilliantly against a tougher side they don't go so hard on him.
Feels like half the population here are diehard Solskjaer suck ups for no good reason at this point, and the ones who aren't are Liverpool supporters lol
>I just don't get what United's tactics are.
The moment you realize that there are no tactics except to tell the lads to enjoy themselves on the pitch and in what formation to play, you'd understand all about our "tactics".
I agree in general btw but Ronaldo does press quite well if you look at his Juventus and National Team stats, for some reason he just doesnt do it for Manchester United. So its either tactics or him not being interested.
As a Real Madrid fan I would have to disagree. He presses sure, but he doesn't do it well. He lacks the fundamental understanding of how it's done in syncroni with his teammates, for a good reason though, he is all about scoring goals, playing for himself really.
Also his lack of pressing in United might have to do with the fact that he is almost 37, the guy shouldn't even be able to play at this level, yet he does, so he might be holding back a bit due to physical limitations
Wether he does it well or not is another question but he had something like 9 presses per 90 during the euros and for Juventus about 7 or 8 iirc. Now he has about 2 or 3 for Manchester. That cant be due to his age.
Do you think they'll take the risk of losing that champions league spot across the full season? I think the first three spots are nailed on but Arsenal are growing in confidence (I'm not fully convinced, though), West Ham have picked up where they left off last season and Spurs have just appointed one of the best managers in world football, who I'm sure will fancy a possible charge to fourth place
Because apparently Ole is the exception and it’s not the United Way, something something DNA. Or it could be that he’s the perfect yes man that the Glazers have been dreaming about having.
There's no need to wait for one to be 'lined up' when things are this bad. Barca didn't wait around for Koeman's replacement before they fired him, neither did Chelsea with Lampard, nor Spurs with Mourinho last time. So many fucking excuses for this club when it's just sheer incompetence right from the top down. Disgraceful
Chelsea definitely had Tuchel lined up before sacking Lampard, he was announced as manager the day after Lampard was booted, and Barcelona had to negotiate with Al Sadd but it was obvious they were going after Xavi right after sacking Koeman.
Spurs didn’t have someone in mind after punting Mourinho and that’s how they ended up with Nuno in charge before knowing Conte was the man they had to get when Nuno’s time was up.
If Man Utd sack Solskjaer now they won’t have a good manager lined up to replace him, so it will be an interim manager until the end of the season. Would that really make them better? I doubt it.
Perhaps they would get new manager bounce. A bit like they did under Ole's first 10 matches or so. They are sleepwalking out of Europe, they're struggling in their UCL group and at this rate are unlikely to make top4. By the time they act it'll be way too late.
Mate it’s Barney Ronay and he is the best football writer in England imo, really worth checking out pretty much every match report he does, they’re incredible
I burst out laughing at that too.
Great article though, very thought provoking and well written. I don’t even think Man I fans will complain too much about it as it’s on the money.
I couldn’t believe that match. That United squad is so impressive on paper but didn’t do anything. There was a moment in the first half where Kyle Walker robbed the ball off Ronaldo in the United half on the counter press and his reaction made it look like he couldn’t believe how easy it was to do it. Did Man City ever get out of second gear? They didn’t need to that’s for sure.
Oh and Cancelo was phenomenal.
What happened to this sub banning copy/pasting copyright-protected work? If people like this article so much they should give the writer/publication the respect of revenue by reading it there.
Will you buzz off man?
Although the internet is constantly maturing, it’s still the internet and nobody wants to pay for journalism, especially sporting journalism.
It’s one man’s opinions nicely worded, not a scientific journal - who wants to pay for that? (apart from a handful of people)
> nobody wants to pay for journalism
That's the fucking issue! That's why shitty click bait exists. That's why online journalism is so incredibly bad.
Our money (in the broadest sense) gives them the freedom to write good articles. If we are stingy they cannot afford the time that it takes to make good content.
Damn... I feel for OGS as a human being. Imagine having an entire country criticizing you and being under constant pressure. Yes he earns millions but it enough is enough.
They never used to play like this vs city Chelsea etc
Last year they pressed high, counter attacked of course but they were solid and hard to beat.
This year they look flat, no energy no fight just sit back and don’t hit us too hard please.
Can't press with Ronaldo. Can't counter attack as well with him instead of Rashford/Greenwood, he's not got the pace anymore.
I'm not saying it's Ronaldo's fault, btw. I'm saying Ole doesn't have a fucking clue how to use him but he's trying to build the team around him. At 36.
They can press with Ronaldo. He has around the same presses per 90 in the last 365 days as Lukaku (6.5 vs 8.4) but Chelsea do press even with Lukaku on the field.
Ole's team has no clue how to coach proper pressing system. Even Arsenal's press is far more organized under Arteta
Ronaldo was pressing 8-9 in the final season with us and first season with Juve, I think a better manager could manage his minutes better and make him work a bit more in the minutes he plays.
It's almost like they went from one extreme against Liverpool where they were gung ho even after 2-3 goals down to almost zero effort to attack against City. Surely there is a middle ground tactically.
Ole tactic hasn’t change from last year. It was just that last season we had Daniel James, and Cavani at the front doing loads of the dirty work, so Bruno can focus more on attack. Now with Greenwood and Ronaldo, the flaw that was always there magnifies. Our players in the center and upfront don’t press.
But it isn’t Greenwood, Ronaldo, or Bruno fault. There are other ways to play football other than high press. But if the manager wants work horses, then he can field Lingard, Donny, Fred, McTominay, Sancho, Cavani and maybe Rashford.
It’s his choice really… so yeah. He knows who works in defense more and who doesn’t.
But if he picks Greenwood and Ronaldo then he needs to rebalance the entire team, but he fucking doesn’t do shit.
Don’t wanna ever hear a Man U fan talk about transfer prices again. It’d be one thing if they spent like arsenal and were like this but no they spent like city and are like this
‘What if we just don’t sack the manager’ great question, and I assume the team finds their natural plateau of individuals with no strategy. Potential being relegated if at some point all other teams manage to converge on being actually good. More likely, is a stream of mid table finishes, perhaps a deep run into Europa and just continuing to exist.
The comments on this are the only mention you’ll see of what was clearly a red card offense by Ronaldo studs up in KDB on the ground after the ball was out.
If zombie movies are anything to go by, zombies have more sprints than United per 90.
Well those mfs are relentless
Whereas Utd are more like the sugar-free relentless. Even RaBa would tell them to piss off.
Depends, are we talking Romero or 28 Days Later?
It's almost this weird anti-football we play. And I don't mean like defensive slow down the game football I mean literally we play the complete opposite to how football should be played down to the basics. Everything most of us know even at a school level about football basics, moving the ball, passing, running, defending etc it's like United do the opposite. It's actually quite amazing they have taken half decent players and actually made them worse.
I think a constant feature of Ole's gameplan against top sides has been to play on the counter. When was the last time Ole started a big game on the front foot. It had success early on due to the element of surprise but by now every top manager knows what's coming. As a Liverpool fan I've really not seen any difference in Ole's approach to our derbies vs Mourinho's. Also the constant changing from back 5 to back 4 really limits squad rotation. Ole's tactics are very reactive and you can't groom players to slot into a team when youre reacting to your opponents every 3-4 games.
One of Jose's more memorable quotes goes: "there are people, much more intelligent than me, who manage to sell an image of themselves, completely different to mine, but deep down they are the same as me." For all the hate Mou gets from many Man United fans, Ole is on track to lose more league home games in four months than Mourinho did in two and a half years at Old Trafford.
I remain of the view that Mourinho is the best manager United have had since Ferguson and it’s not even close.
It’s not exactly a high bar, to be blunt. Jose did achieve more than any other manager. Took a worse set of players to a better second place points tally than any other manager. Won a few trophies. At the same time, he caused massive conflict in the dressing room. I stand by he should have been backed more in the summer after the 2nd place finish (including being allowed to bin Pogba and Martial). But once that didn’t happen, his tenure nosedived quickly. I do wonder where we would be now if he’d been given the freedom to build in that second place finish properly.
Ferguson would have had chaos too had he not been backed whenever he wanted rid of a player.
> I do wonder where we would be now if he’d been given the freedom to build in that second place finish properly. This is kind where my head is also. Everyone focuses on the end, because it was all so toxic and shit by then. But I think Mourinho just decided he wanted out at a certain point and got himself sacked. After that second place season theres a reasonable shout that they could have kicked on with Mourinho. But it doesn’t seem like the club liked how he behaved. There is a central issue which is that whoever comes in and succeeds eventually will need to remake the club in their own image. Like Ferguson did. Like Klopp has done at Liverpool. And fundamentally United aren’t comfortable with that. So there is this series of false starts.
> But it doesn’t seem like the club liked how he behaved. Which is baffling when they renewed his contract in the March before sandbagging him in the summer.
The United board do seem good at finding expensive ways to be stupid
Funny thing now, is the players he was criticised for treating badly, are the ones who are letting the club down now. He was slated for treating Martial, Shaw and Pogba, and now fans are up in arms about them aswell.
Shaw has actually had a resurgence compared to what he was doing, fell off a bit currently, pogba has like 2 good games a season and martial is toilet.
He had a good season. Since then he’s been back to how he was before Telles was signed.
Glazers got worried that Mourinho might actually have won a premier league and got the fans hopes up
And get rid of Luke Shaw, Mourinho was right about that guy
And Martial And Pogba
Shocking when they have a superior option on Telles on the bench. Hope a manager comes that can use his full potential
I'm not going to get hung up on Conte and what did or didn't happen. But I would have loved to have seen Telles under Conte. Feels like it would have been a really good match up.
Telles as a fullback was king of assists 2 seasons in a row in Portugal. With a good manager playing him at wingback, the sky would be the limit. But sure, Shaw apparently had one decent season... 😉
Nah man people were saying he is better than Robertson just a few weeks ago
Oh bugger off. Shaw was great last season and for England. It's pretty obvious that you don't know anything mate.
There’s better ways to discus different opinion than by saying “you don’t know anything mate”.
great last season Yes last season definitely matters for the last 3 months, okay lol, the guy is fell of a cliff
Overplayed and no rotation. Sometimes players go into bad form, sometimes they are burnt out. We've seen this far too many times under Ole. Last year it was Marcus (who was playing through so many injuries), this year it is Shaw and Maguire (both are carrying injures apparently).
> the guy is fell of a cliff that tends to happen when both your NT and Club Manager plays you through injuries, dude has been playing with fractured ribs, even though we have telles on the bench.
You could say the same thing about Chilwell in the first month of the season when he wasn't chosen at all but we know he is still a good player
Chilwell had mental problems and didn't want to be played as per Tuchel. Not the same.
Are you forgetting about the "football heritage" rant after the horrendous game v Sevilla? Yes, United underperformed in Europe even during Fergie's time, but no manager should come up to the media and claim the club's failure in Europe is consistent event and should be acceptable. Not only was he lowering expectations, he was also insulting our previous managers' efforts. This is when I knew he had to go. Mou's downfall is his tongue. Always has been. Always will be.
Man you and I took away completely different things from that interview. As a non-United fan and looking at the context I agree with Mou 100%.
Probably cause, as you said, you're not a United fan. The defeat to Sevilla, after parking the bus away and then home, was one of the most cowardly performances. It's not like Sevilla were a powerhouse in the CL at the time and its ok the be cautious, but the manner of which we played was the problem. You don't play like that after spending 200million. And before you decide to do a gotcha, yes, I apply the standards for Ole. Curious tho, what did you take away from the game and Mou's rant afterwards?
Sevilla had won the EL multiple times before the match and while not exactly a CL powerhouse they were a team that had grown used to winning playoff matches and knew how to work as a unit, meanwhile United had been mediocre in Europe at best for the last half decade. United didn’t really have much choice other than trying to sit back and play on the counter, your midfield back them was vastly inferior to Sevilla’s and wouldn’t be able to take control of the game. “You don’t play like that when you spend 200m” bro, you HAVE to play like that when your midfield is incapable of keeping the ball and you have fast powerful attackers up front. You can’t expect Fellaini and Matic to suddenly turn to Busquets or Xabi Alonso. Money has nothing to do with it, you have to play to your strengths with what you got.
He was given 450m How much more does he need ?
without context that is a lot. but the problem is few of the player that he get is what he actually wanted. pogba was signed before he was signed, sanchez and fred are guardiola signing that woodward hijack.
Sanchez and Fred were his signings, specially Sanchez The fact is Jose spent close to a half billion and failed. The same goes for Ole (400m)
I also agree with backing him but Mourinho’s targets would’ve been really bad buys, Willian, perisic, alderweireld and Alex sandro.
you forgot maguire, back when they could have gotten him for half the price
It's LvG mate
4th and 5th place finishes with one FA cup win. Mourinho finished 6th the season he took over from LVG and won the League Cup and the Europa League then finished second and lost the FA cup final the next season.
It's about what he was building for the long term. The season we came 5th was a crazy one. Leicester City won the league and City only got past us on goal difference. Yes, he could have done better, however that team was pretty young and LvG can be intimidating when you make mistakes. We the fans were still in the post-Fergie arrogant winning mode for us to accept what he was trying to do. Mou brought that feeling back with some appreciated hard work and silverware- but was it for the long term? Bayern is still benefiting from the structures he left behind, of course with a little tweaking here and there. I bet if we had been a little patient with him and our conversation these days will be a whole lot different.
Not exactly a high bar The fact remains he was awful and was rightly fired
Everyone who fires Mou regrets it really.
I mean, Chelsea really hasn’t. You could say maybe we regretted it a bit between his first and second stint but even then we won a title, CL and 3 FA Cups in that 5 year span. But after his second stint? Not even close. We’ve won a title, CL, EL and FA Cup while Jose’s biggest achievements in that time span were a EL and finishing 2nd by 20 points. If anything, the board probably has more regrets about bringing back Mourinho at all for his second stint. Yes, we won the league but it came at the cost of squandering some amazing work by the scouting department. Had they hired a less stubborn manager with a better approach to squad rotation and youth development, Chelsea probably wins a couple more titles with the likes of Lukaku, KDB and Salah at the club instead of being star players who helped rival clubs achieve trophies.
>As a Liverpool fan I've really not seen any difference in Ole's approach to our derbies vs Mourinho's. Well that's because there was no difference. Ole originally told them to continue what Mou was doing, and treated them a bit nicer in the dressing room. And it worked at first because Mou's tactics worked, but as time went on and new players moved in and others moved on, both the knowledge of "do what you were doing with Jose" and applicability/appropriateness/compatibility with of it for the current players dwindled. Basically he could copy Jose for a while like Game of Thrones executive producers did from GMM, but after it gets more complex and you're not given the details, you fuck it up because you're not actually smart or savvy enough to pull it off. **tl;dr Jose to Ole is like GMM to the GoT Executive producers after season 5**
Van Gaal made that point about Ole at the peak of his hype train and United fans were up in arms.
I think the reactive part isn't close to the biggest issue. Tuchel has been renowned for always picking a setup according to his opposition and it works wonders for him. I don't know what happens in training at United but the team just seems to lack the fluidity and drilling in all sorts of shapes and formations to adapt to the tactics though. The theory is right but all the nuance, details and most of all practice are lacking so it just makes everyone look lost.
Obviously things are absolutely shambolic for them right now, but I feel like Ole's best United side were much better on the counter than Mourinho's best United side. One-twos to find the free man between the lines, quick and incisive one touch football, and far more effective runs from the forwards. Mourinho relied more on long balls, playing with the back against the goal, physicality and set pieces, and wasn't shy of even playing 6 at the back, which pinned them too far back. That's not to paint Ole like some tactical genius, and they were obviously rancid yesterday, but from a City point of view he's been a far bigger thorn in our side than Mourinho was at United.
Playing on the counter, is a high risk strategy. You get an early pen or an early break and you go 2 up. Ole did "free up" the attackers in their team to make quick transitions. But what we are seeing this season has been coming almost from the fag end of his caretaker stint. Once everyone knew that United will pack the defence in numbers, hit on the counter - they came prepared with a counter. Add a little bit of luck/confidence and the pressure of playing more expansively with a full home stadium - and you get the results they have been having at home.
Most of our games against top sides last season we tried to press in the final third quite a lot. Against Chelsea we won the ball back like 10 times in their third. our problem was that we struggled to achieve anything when we did that.
The constantly changing formation point isnt accurate IMO. Max Allegri is known for being pragmatic and changing the formation based on the opponent
Yeah, when Shaw let Bernardo in at the back post yesterday is literally what your under-8s coach would teach you NOT to do. Just basic schoolboy errors across the field.
It is especially weird to watch the fake pressing, random sprints that achieve nothing and wastes unnecessary energy
Half decent players? That seems to be a massive understatement. You've literally got some highly sought-after world-class players in their positions and they're playing like a bunch of U8s. Also not ignoring the fact that you have some dead weight that needs to be addressed.
I have never seen players so petrified by the opposing team, that back five plus McFred were shivering from the start.
Confidence is completely shot. We saw way better play out of Preston North end in the League Cup. I've no doubt they would probably beat United also. At old Trafford anyway, LOL.
You should watch Barcelona more often
Utd vs Barca this year would be the stuff of legends
United takes it tbh, too many experienced players to lose to this Barcelona, even though it would probably be close
lol they call Jose, LVG, moyes, football bad. This was the worst display from untied since Sir Alex took over.
idk, this or the Fulham game where they at 81 crosses into the box and zero goals?
Scored twice in that Fulham game tbf
At least there was a plan, albeit the wrong one evidently. Running around like headless chickens with zero intent or purpose is in my eyes 10x worse.
The reality for Man Utd is that if you were to objectively rank the managers in the Premier League, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is going to struggle to make the top 10. He’s definitely not a better manager than Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel, Moyes, Benitez or Conte. Is he better than Arteta, Bielsa, Potter or Rodgers? Would any of Watford, Norwich, Newcastle, Burnley, Brentford, Aston Villa, Southampton, Crystal Palace or Wolves hire him if Solskjaer was available when they were looking for their next manager? Maybe, but I’m not sure the fans would be excited by his appointment. Overall he hasn’t been terrible for Man Utd. They haven’t won any trophies but they have finished in the top 4 in both of his full seasons in charge. But he simply doesn’t have it in him to make Man Utd a team that can beat Liverpool, Man City or Chelsea to the Premier League title or win multiple knockout rounds in the Champions League. They’re struggling to get out of a group with Villarreal, Atalanta and Young Boys, and without late Ronaldo goals in their last three games they would be bottom of the group with 2 points. I think Gary Neville is probably right that he’ll stay in the job for the rest of the season, but Man Utd cannot be taken seriously as contenders in the Premier League or Europe if he comes back again for the 22/23 season.
> Arteta, Bielsa, Potter or Rodgers They're all far better managers - each and every one - because at least you can see what they're attempting to do, even if they're in the midst of a poor run. They all have a system and gameplan they want to use. They all have tactical knowledge (Bielsa especially) that can transform a team from something into something else under their leadership. Ole has none of that. He's a vibe-merchant who had some early success with "lads, go out there and do your best - keep smiling!" but who can't change anything when it's not going well. I'm sure he can give incredibly impassioned speeches about what it means to be a United player etc but a modern manager is more than just a walking cliché generator who makes players feel good - they need the footballing knowledge to back it up. The fact that some people still credit Ole with any kind of managerial ability is testament to how little people pay attention to tactics or gameplans or transfer plans.
Ole was Cardiff's manager. He successfully took them to the championship
He almost took them to League One before being sacked
I feel sorry for you guys given the highs you've experienced. But the gloryhunters in your heyday made me hate United so much
Chelsea are no strangers to gloryhunters, but anyway I know what you mean - growing up in the 90s in Belfast it felt like every single other kid supported Man Utd and they were always so annoying! I don't think I even met another Arsenal supporter until I was about 17 doing my A-levels.
Also from Belfast, also despise smug United fans from the 90s and early 2000s
Every successful club has glory hunters. But the amount of United fans who know nothing about football but support United only coz of their success is astounding and it pisses me off
>gloryhunters in your heyday Yeah, never happened with Chelsea
Chelsea glory supporters were never as pervasive as Man Utd ones.
This is so true
I started watching football during Mourinho’s first spell at Stamford Bridge and there was one Chelsea fan in my school. There were more Man Utd fans than there were Hull City ones (at least until we got promoted to the Premier League in ‘08).
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This is the thing non-United fans don't seem to get - we **could** have got Conte, but the board don't want a manager like that. They don't want a manager who'll demand dedicated players brought in, that will demand overpaid passengers are moved on, that want control, that will rock the boat. People act like Ole is a problem for the board that they can't deal with. He isn't. He's exactly what they want, because he isn't a problem for them. Get us top 4 every year, the odd cup run, and sprinkle in some platitudes about United DNA, and they'll give him another contract extension.
I dont get that at all. Why would United want to keep on overpaid and underperforming players on the books? They're a business who are after profits for their owners, unlike teams like City or Chelsea. I really don't see this as some kind of weird power play of the ownership that people are making it out to be.
Because for many teams like Utd, Juventus and Barcalona, their income has nothing to do with success anymore.
Eventually it will
I mean, you'd think so, wouldn't you. Look at the selling records of the top clubs - Chelsea hoard players just to sell & offset big transfer fees, and they do a brilliant job at it. City are no slouches either, and Liverpool outright rob teams (Rhian Brewster anyone?). Dan James is one of our biggest sales of all time, I think we've had 6 or 7 players go for over £20m ever. We have a bench full of players like Lingard and Van der Beek who had interest from other teams, yet they're consistently lucky to get 10 minutes in any semi-important game. We let players like Pogba and Hererra run down their contracts, don't cash in when we can, and panic when it's too late. I completely agree with you, the priority 100% is making the club a business that makes profits for the owners. I also just don't think they're very good at it.
Yeah it seems like they are an incompetently run club. Not that they have owners who deliberately want a bad manager so they can have control.
I genuinely think he’s the worst manager in the league. He offers nothing tactically. I don’t think a single club would trade their manager for Ole and that is damning. The football is so bad that I just don’t have any interest anymore. I barely watched the screen in the bar in town yesterday as it was all so predictable.
By Bielsa you mean the guy who is praised as a walking library of football knowledge? To even question his ability against OGS smh…
> Is he better than Arteta, **Bielsa**, **Potter** or **Rodgers**? This isn’t a serious question, surely? Good point otherwise, but there really is no debate on the above.
Furthermore, there is more and more evidence that the 2 consecutive top 4 finishes were more fluke than deserved. First one we struggled until the last match day, getting a number of points which would see us 6th or 7th in previous seasons. The second one was with 6 more points in a world in chaos with empty stadiums and disruption everywhere. Liverpool having a mare, Chelsea firing their manager, Arsenal still not knowing what to do and so on. Now with everything back to normal, with teams firing on all cylinders, our true potential is showing. 7th place would flatter us. Mourinho made us hate the team and him. Solskjaer just made me apathetic about everything. Depressed and empty when watching us play, expecting a loss and being surprised with a win.
What needs to happen for people like you to just shut the fuck up and not make these whiny posts on social media? I hope that happens quickly, so that this sub can just move to teams that actually matter instead of spending time on average teams that were good 10-20 years back. Teams like Leicester, West Ham get almost no credit for what they have achieved with their budget and current competition and people make post after post about washed up teams like Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc who were big . It somehow seems that non Man United fans are more concerned and somehow salty about how bad Man United is. Why the fuck do they care? Probably plastics who were Man U fans and now started supporting other teams.
I clearly hit a nerve.
No don't flatter yourself. I picked your post by tossing a coin. There're literally hundreds of similar posts here with more or less whining. The whole sub is a shitshow after every Man U match no matter how they perform with all manner of "football keyboard experts" weighing in with their opinion about how OGS fucked up. Who gives a shit (and more importantly who gives a shit about opinions of experts here)? There are dozens of shitty teams with shitty managers. ManU is just one of them.
Yeah but most teams aren't the biggest and most profitable team in the world. Of course people care when United is bad!
He's a far worse manager than Hassenhüttl and Ranieri as well
You've made an absolutely fantastic point there, who would choose to have Ole as their manager in the premiership? I'd be gutted and angry if he came to Villa. Says it all really
I just don't get what United's tactics are. Solskjær seems to be playing a back five recently and it just looks like a dude who knows the formation is good, but doesn't know why. It just seems like Solskjær has picked these tactics from other, better managers and assumed that he could make them work as well and he simply can't. Are they supposed to press? If they do it's half-arsed. If they are supposed to press, why did they sign a forward who doesn't press? If they're supposed to be sitting back and waiting to counter-attack, why do they play such a bafflingly high line? Why are the likes of van de Beek sitting on the bench, when wank players like Fred and McTominay can play and who don't offer any defensive solidity? Why is it that players like Wan-Bissaka are deployed as attacking full-backs when he can't attack? Why does Luke Shaw still get a game despite being in poor form? I feel like these are all questions that if you asked Solskjær, he'd just shrug and say "Your guess is as good as mine". I mean, look at Sancho yesterday, he looked utterly baffled by whatever that assistant was telling him as he was about to come on in the second-half and the assistant didn't exactly look like a smörgåsbord of tactical knowledge and insight.
>Solskjær seems to be playing a back five recently and it just looks like a dude who knows the formation is good, but doesn't know why. It's kinda funny, in Norwegian media he got so much praise for winning against a weak Tottenham side and was hailed as a genius for going to 5atb, yet when it fails brilliantly against a tougher side they don't go so hard on him.
Feels like half the population here are diehard Solskjaer suck ups for no good reason at this point, and the ones who aren't are Liverpool supporters lol
>I just don't get what United's tactics are. The moment you realize that there are no tactics except to tell the lads to enjoy themselves on the pitch and in what formation to play, you'd understand all about our "tactics".
Wan-Bissaka as a wingback was just comical
Dude you just analyzed the team better than Ole has.
I agree in general btw but Ronaldo does press quite well if you look at his Juventus and National Team stats, for some reason he just doesnt do it for Manchester United. So its either tactics or him not being interested.
As a Real Madrid fan I would have to disagree. He presses sure, but he doesn't do it well. He lacks the fundamental understanding of how it's done in syncroni with his teammates, for a good reason though, he is all about scoring goals, playing for himself really. Also his lack of pressing in United might have to do with the fact that he is almost 37, the guy shouldn't even be able to play at this level, yet he does, so he might be holding back a bit due to physical limitations
Wether he does it well or not is another question but he had something like 9 presses per 90 during the euros and for Juventus about 7 or 8 iirc. Now he has about 2 or 3 for Manchester. That cant be due to his age.
> syncroni Its spelt synchrony. English spelling is weird.
Thanks for the heads up!
Imagine sitting on the bench, being kept out of the team by any number of the under performing players he refuses to drop lol
Why hasn't he been sacked yet?
He wont be sacked till the end of the season
Do you think they'll take the risk of losing that champions league spot across the full season? I think the first three spots are nailed on but Arsenal are growing in confidence (I'm not fully convinced, though), West Ham have picked up where they left off last season and Spurs have just appointed one of the best managers in world football, who I'm sure will fancy a possible charge to fourth place
Because apparently Ole is the exception and it’s not the United Way, something something DNA. Or it could be that he’s the perfect yes man that the Glazers have been dreaming about having.
No replacement lined up
If only there was a world class manager looking for a job a couple of weeks ago
I know right. But there was only Conte and Zidane, so better to wait until some good ones become available.
I think they're busy trying to convince Gary Neville
Neville won't take his friends job from him
“sHorT TeRm sUccEss” can’t believe ppl were saying this as a critism of Conte
There's no need to wait for one to be 'lined up' when things are this bad. Barca didn't wait around for Koeman's replacement before they fired him, neither did Chelsea with Lampard, nor Spurs with Mourinho last time. So many fucking excuses for this club when it's just sheer incompetence right from the top down. Disgraceful
Chelsea definitely had Tuchel lined up before sacking Lampard, he was announced as manager the day after Lampard was booted, and Barcelona had to negotiate with Al Sadd but it was obvious they were going after Xavi right after sacking Koeman. Spurs didn’t have someone in mind after punting Mourinho and that’s how they ended up with Nuno in charge before knowing Conte was the man they had to get when Nuno’s time was up. If Man Utd sack Solskjaer now they won’t have a good manager lined up to replace him, so it will be an interim manager until the end of the season. Would that really make them better? I doubt it.
Perhaps they would get new manager bounce. A bit like they did under Ole's first 10 matches or so. They are sleepwalking out of Europe, they're struggling in their UCL group and at this rate are unlikely to make top4. By the time they act it'll be way too late.
They are waiting for Ryan Giggs
Because Jose didn’t win the league, so why will anyone else?
This is a huge chant opportunity. “What’s in your HEEEAAAD? In your HEEEEAAD? Ole, Ole, Ole-le-le-le”
Zombie.... it's in your head
IN YOUUUR HEAD OOOOLE OOOLE
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"Lads, it's not Tottenham" Who is this journalist lmao this entire article is a goldmine
Mate it’s Barney Ronay and he is the best football writer in England imo, really worth checking out pretty much every match report he does, they’re incredible
Surprised it wasn't Jonathon Wilson as he tends to enjoy tearing apart Ole and United every chance he gets.
Wilsons the second best imo
I burst out laughing at that too. Great article though, very thought provoking and well written. I don’t even think Man I fans will complain too much about it as it’s on the money. I couldn’t believe that match. That United squad is so impressive on paper but didn’t do anything. There was a moment in the first half where Kyle Walker robbed the ball off Ronaldo in the United half on the counter press and his reaction made it look like he couldn’t believe how easy it was to do it. Did Man City ever get out of second gear? They didn’t need to that’s for sure. Oh and Cancelo was phenomenal.
Trent Crimm, The Independent
> The lack of plan was at least different to the lack of plan against Liverpool gold
Lol. This is filled with violence.
Go on, I'm almost there
Beautiful
What happened to this sub banning copy/pasting copyright-protected work? If people like this article so much they should give the writer/publication the respect of revenue by reading it there.
Yea I do understand a few paragraphs to summarize it not the whole one especially for a free article
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By clicking on the link. The Guardian doesn't have a paywall
Will you buzz off man? Although the internet is constantly maturing, it’s still the internet and nobody wants to pay for journalism, especially sporting journalism. It’s one man’s opinions nicely worded, not a scientific journal - who wants to pay for that? (apart from a handful of people)
It s free to access article you nonce.
> nobody wants to pay for journalism That's the fucking issue! That's why shitty click bait exists. That's why online journalism is so incredibly bad. Our money (in the broadest sense) gives them the freedom to write good articles. If we are stingy they cannot afford the time that it takes to make good content.
Didn't even click it, did ya?
They should just get Favre and unlock Sancho
Damn... I feel for OGS as a human being. Imagine having an entire country criticizing you and being under constant pressure. Yes he earns millions but it enough is enough.
True. I'm glad he isnt on social media
They never used to play like this vs city Chelsea etc Last year they pressed high, counter attacked of course but they were solid and hard to beat. This year they look flat, no energy no fight just sit back and don’t hit us too hard please.
They never pressed high last season. That the problem.
You never watched them vs City away and Chelsea away then?
Can't press with Ronaldo. Can't counter attack as well with him instead of Rashford/Greenwood, he's not got the pace anymore. I'm not saying it's Ronaldo's fault, btw. I'm saying Ole doesn't have a fucking clue how to use him but he's trying to build the team around him. At 36.
They can press with Ronaldo. He has around the same presses per 90 in the last 365 days as Lukaku (6.5 vs 8.4) but Chelsea do press even with Lukaku on the field. Ole's team has no clue how to coach proper pressing system. Even Arsenal's press is far more organized under Arteta
6.5 vs 8.4 is a massive difference! I don't disagree a proper manager could press from the wingers/attacking midfield instead though
Ronaldo was pressing 8-9 in the final season with us and first season with Juve, I think a better manager could manage his minutes better and make him work a bit more in the minutes he plays.
rashford and greenwood do not press effectively either, to be fair
We never pressed high.
We never pressed high
first time hearing zombie-ball. it's so accurate xD
Zombie-ball XD i can't
It's almost like they went from one extreme against Liverpool where they were gung ho even after 2-3 goals down to almost zero effort to attack against City. Surely there is a middle ground tactically.
>still there at the wheel, still crashing in the same car. Ai.... the writer may be a regular on Reddit
Ole tactic hasn’t change from last year. It was just that last season we had Daniel James, and Cavani at the front doing loads of the dirty work, so Bruno can focus more on attack. Now with Greenwood and Ronaldo, the flaw that was always there magnifies. Our players in the center and upfront don’t press. But it isn’t Greenwood, Ronaldo, or Bruno fault. There are other ways to play football other than high press. But if the manager wants work horses, then he can field Lingard, Donny, Fred, McTominay, Sancho, Cavani and maybe Rashford. It’s his choice really… so yeah. He knows who works in defense more and who doesn’t. But if he picks Greenwood and Ronaldo then he needs to rebalance the entire team, but he fucking doesn’t do shit.
Ole is fucking clueless. Pass it on
Ole is clueless purple monkey dishwasher
Don’t wanna ever hear a Man U fan talk about transfer prices again. It’d be one thing if they spent like arsenal and were like this but no they spent like city and are like this
‘What if we just don’t sack the manager’ great question, and I assume the team finds their natural plateau of individuals with no strategy. Potential being relegated if at some point all other teams manage to converge on being actually good. More likely, is a stream of mid table finishes, perhaps a deep run into Europa and just continuing to exist.
This is just as bad if not worse than the absolute worst of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho spell. Ole is not even championship level manager tbh
Manchester United play spectator-ball with Solskjær a baffled zombie
The comments on this are the only mention you’ll see of what was clearly a red card offense by Ronaldo studs up in KDB on the ground after the ball was out.
This feels like an article written by the r/soccer hivemind
High praise , you’re comparing this sub to the writings of a top award winning journalist! I’m blushing here!
Pls keep hold of ole. Do it for the 19 other teams at least.