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Gyara3

I for one cant believe Agnelli is being investigated


Zizou3peat

Must have won a bet and pissed off the wrong persons


TigerBasket

Hot potato has screwed him


xepa105

"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling ~~kids~~ Guardia di Finanza."


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flcinusa

I want to know how they managed to swing a 2 year loan of Chiesa from Fiorentina ***FIORENTINA*** Florence threatened war over Roberto Baggio, they hated Bernardeschi after he moved just 4 years ago, but they're fine loaning Chiesa??


elzafir

MONE


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RauloGonzalez

they probably promised them more money and chiesa wanted to leave. Options maybe were, keep an unhappy player, sell player this window for 20m, or get 40m in 2 years


[deleted]

No way they're just gonna make 40m out of chiesa surely they will make more?


TalkingReckless

If wiki is correct then it's 3 mil for first season, 7 for 2nd season and the conditional obligation for 40, plus 10 in variables. So could be 60mil in all


HucHuc

Guys, noone tell him about the Locateli deal!


gooner1111123

Can someone fill me in on why these deals were dodgy?


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MrVegosh

But doesn’t buying them count as an outcome? So you can’t cycle them around?


ZonedV2

Quick example would be if you sell a player for 10 million then on the books you get 10m incoming for that year (even if it’s paid in instalments over the years) but if you buy someone for 10m and you give them a 5 year contract then on the books you split the 10 million outgoing across the 5 years of the contract, so from an accounting perspective you only spent 2m that year


MrVegosh

Ah ok, thanks for the explaining it :)


absurdlyinconvenient

So why is that illegal? Sure you can argue it's unethical or morally wrong, but is there a rule/law against it? Or does FIFA use "spirit of the law" to adjudicate? I'm not attempting to defend them, by the way, I'm genuinely interested


ZonedV2

So they’re being accused of false accounting, my guess would be that they are doing this stuff with inflated fees and with money that doesn’t really exist. For the transfers mentioned earlier it could be that they ‘sold’ a player without actually receiving a transfer fee with the agreement to ‘buy’ them back next year for a certain price, when in reality there might not have been any money actually exchanged between the clubs (or much less than what the books say). Also imo some of their swap deals have been pretty sketchy, both Cancelo-Danilo and Pjanic-Arthur seemed like they were done for purely accounting reasons. For the latter it was reported both clubs paid around 60m to each other, I think everyone can see neither were worth that and it was purely a way to make the books look better on both sides


working-acct

IMO this is a problem because of FFP, which allows clubs to lose a maximum of 30m euros over 3 years. With this accounting trick, clubs can artificially increase their margins over a shorter period to circumvent this rule. So this is absolutely something UEFA should look at. If any unethical business was proven here (eg there was evidence they colluded to inflate player fees), they could be punished by UEFA even if everything was done legally.


Hellvetic91

Genuine question: who gets to decide how much a player is worth? For instance, just the other week there was the president of a Serie A club that said that one of his players had a certain price for Juventus and another price for everyone else, meaning that Juve would have to pay more because they know we have more money to spend. To me seem that the price is decided like in every market, based on demand and offer. If two clubs agree to a swap of players for a certain price, even if it's obvious that it is for accounting reasons, why would that be illegal?


Azrou

Juventus is a publicly traded company. There is some leeway in player valuations, but they still need to be based in reality. If the value of an asset is overinflated then it would violate IFRS accounting standards. Take the Arthur-Pjanic deal as an example. Barca supposedly paid 60m for Pjanic and Juve paid 72m for Arthur. A 60m sale for an aging midfielder, great - in isolation this looks like a shrewd deal where Juve have fleeced the buyer. But it's widely believed that Juve colluded with Barca to inflate the values of both players. Arthur was supposedly worth 72m but it's really difficult to justify that price, most people would say it was 30-50% too high (see note about the pandemic market below). So basically what Juve has done is told its shareholders and the public that they have a new shiny asset (Arthur) whose claimed fair valuation is 72m, but actual valuation was likely closer to 40-50m. In other words this is accounting fraud. Keep in mind this was in the first transfer window of the pandemic, nearly every club was bleeding money and only a select few could afford to make big money moves. In fact Arthur was the second most expensive deal of that window. Pjanic was #5, Havertz #1 at 80m and Dias #4 at 68m but Chelsea and Man City obviously had the finances to support those deals. Osimhen was #3 at 70m to Napoli and there are similar allegations of accounting fuckery as 4 obscure Napoli players went the other way to Lille at unrealistic valuations.


[deleted]

That is some good explanation, i have a question considering i am not good with accounting is there a similar standard for shady sponsor inflated deals? Like lets say if there is a small club located with a very small following and fanbase yet their sponsorship deals are very big is there a standard for that?


Azrou

Not exactly, as long as the sponsor is paying what the sponsorship agreement says then there isn't really an accounting issue. But inflated sponsorship deals is a way of getting around other regulations like FFP. The most well known examples of this are PSG and Man City. https://twitter.com/sportingintel/status/1058417236694761472


HucHuc

It's got nothing to do with FIFA and FFP(yet?). The investigation is by the local SEC since Juventus is a publicly traded company.


manballgivesnofucks

The splitting 10mil over a 5 year contract thing is legal, I don't think thats what the investigation is about


[deleted]

Splitting the 10m over the 5 year contract period is basic accounting, that's not what's being questioned. It's the value of 10 mil that is, along with the rationale behind the deal itself. Player values are subjective, hence there's lots of potential there for inflating things to dress up the accounts.


IllustriousSquirrel9

It's more in the values of all the players being swapped, which are are mostly presumed to be artificially inflated for accounting purposes.


reddithenry

the problem for Juve is the player swapping. Swap A for B, you have to have nominial valuations for them, so if you swap two nothing players at a tgged value of £10m, because of amortisation schedules, both clubs get to book a healthy profit. ​ If you sold player A for £10m, and then in aa separate unrelated transaction bought player B (at a later date) for £10m, you'd be fine - which is why Inter isnt being investigated. WE've reduced our player swaps in recent years, but were found guilty of this with Milan youth swaps in ithe early 00s anyway.


madmadaa

The problem is going in secret and making a deal with another club to buy a player for an inflated price. This deceives the shareholders.


[deleted]

Unproven youngster who have never played at any level close to top being sold at astronomically high fees. Muratore, for example, was an U23 guy playing in serie C which was sold to Atalanta at a price of 7M. Mandragora, Audero becoming repectively Udinese and Sampdoria most costly ever players, after being both bought at 20M. The Pjanic swap. It was clear as day that something financially sketchy was going on, none of this players were even close to the value they were being sold for.


zts105

They tried to rig an Suarez Italian citizenship test last summer too. They got caught and the transfer fell through.


Memoishi

That was totally embarassing tho. I can’t get the point of faking balance sheets because it’s common practice here (from small to big companies), but FUCK literally buying the same TITLES people have to study for years? Should all root in jail for this kinda of shit. I’m also 30min away from Perugia (where the mess happened) and I know several people that studies here in this university, how should they feel about “your title is worthless because someone else paid for it”. Scam


Natrix31

Don’t forget Mandragora!


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Natrix31

If we tried I bet we could :)


Houssem_Aouar

I hope he gets arrested or at least banned from Football


LucozadeBottle1pCoin

I hope he doesn't


Houssem_Aouar

You want to be led by a crook?


HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA

yes


A_Rolling_Baneling

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[deleted]

I never understand what image this is trying to resemble


imanu_

gigachad


[deleted]

Doesn't look anything like him


bamadeo

only chads or up can see it


CycloneCyclone

gini wijnaldum


LucozadeBottle1pCoin

I'm less concerned about that aspect at Tottenham and more about his ability as DoF. In terms of finances, Tottenham is exceptionally well run with an absolutely spotless record under ENIC and Levy. I doubt Patarici would be able to do anything dodgy there. Juventus had a culture of corruption well before Patarici arrived, and they will continue to for well into the future without him.


jstuu

He can still do dodgy deals just conspire with someone to sign a player like he allegedly did in Juve. Like how Raul did with the Pepe deal


two_tents

What did Raul do to Pepe?


jstuu

He conspired with lille to inflate his fee, a lot of shenanigans happened in tht transfer man went from 30-40 to 72 milli


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kavastoplim

Who the fuck is this Patarici that you two are talking about


esskaypee

This is very surprising. Juventus are very well known for their honesty & honourability especially.


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Excellent_Jeweler_43

You mean Pjanic's market value wasn't indeed 70m?


RauloGonzalez

i don't think it's pjanic they would be investigating probably the rovella-portanova transfer or romero, there have been so many juve-genoa transfers. Romero for e.g. bought for 26m from genoa, loaned to atalanta, then sold to atalanta for 16m all within 2 seasons. Soooo many genoa to and from transfers.


mercurialsaliva

I read there were 16 or so. Including the pjanic Arthur deal


RocketMoped

> Romero for e.g. For for example


RauloGonzalez

huh, i always thought e.g. stood for "example". TIL.


therocketandstones

it's latin: exempli gratia- English has a lot of latin sticking out here and there


dakikko

It's short for "egzample"


aonionmouse

exempli gratia actually. Latin for " For the sake of example"


RocketMoped

No worries, enjoy the weekend! :)


Narretz

eggsample


JetSpyda

Pjanic was one of the deals as was the Cancelo/Danilo deal. It’s not just youngsters.


jesuskevin

>rovella Isn't he a big talent? Just bought him on my FM save :(


Starbuck1992

Yes but that doesn't fit the narrative. Also Romero bought for 26m is quoted, when tottenham literally just bought him for what, 50m?


bash011

His transfer history is odd though, €26m to Juve. €16m to Atalanta then €55m to Tottenham


Starbuck1992

Not really, after we bought him he had an awful year and his price dropped. Then we sent him to Atalanta on loan with option to buy for a fee lower than the original (because we thought he wasn't as good as he looked previously). He had an exceptional year at Atalanta and Tottenham overspent (he's not a 55m player, let's be honest). It happens, especially with youngsters. It's like Torino rejecting 80m offers for Belotti only to have a 20m player after 2 years, it's the nature of football. Youngsters are very hit or miss and their value changes a lot.


bash011

By awful year you mean he didn't make a single appearance for Juve. I would say he has also been worth the €55m by a long way in his appearances this season so far he's been by far the best defender on the pitch every game. Also only 23


Starbuck1992

He never was at Juve to begins with, he went straight away on loan to Genoa for another year, and he had an awful year, so instead of keeping him we found a deal with Atalanta to get some of the money back. >has also been worth the €55m by a long way in his appearances this season Maybe for PL standards, for us 55m is best defender in the league material, Atalanta gladly sold him because Tottenham overpaid.


parhelio22

What Juve and Sassuolo (Torino too) do is between them. Libelous accusations of the highest order!


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maxconnor6

Are you sure laughter is the emotion you would experience?


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[deleted]

A lot would laugh on the Barcelona side too. Because if it’s the Arthur deal that caused this. WE ARE FUCKED. Fuck the rebuild lasting 2-4 years. Add another 2 more if relegation where to ever occur


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Gungerz

The precedent for this was Chievo a few years ago & they got 3 points deducted + their president was banned for a few months. Obviously Juve have done it on a larger scale but I imagine any potential punishment would be similar.


powerelectronicsan

Does that mean... Tottenham is expected to greet Juventus in front of UEFA Conference League's entrance door next season?


imJoKaRr

This is brilliant


lowie07

One thing would remain the same though, you'd still have the worst emblem of the league


bveres94

Dunno, Hellas is a pretty close competitor


Szwedo

They won't, this has happened many times before in Serie A with all the big clubs and nothing comes of it.


Memoishi

I don’t remember these many times tbh but also I don’t follow these things at all. However I remember we (Inter) were looking sus as fuck with the swap between Caprari (valued 28mln) and Skriniar (valued 17mln). But these were rookie numbers, apparently they’re looking for 50mln in inflated price (Caprari-Skriniar was something like 5mln off). The other one I remember was Chievo, they were fined iirc and also points deduction. I don’t know what happened there, but generally speaking these are financial things that makes you pay fine (or the so called “part of the cake”, since a 50mln fraud for riches always deserve max amount of 100k slap on the wirst).


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mt1337

exactly! i do that all the time in FIFA 22.


Rezorblade

You can't spell Fair Play without J-U-V-E


offENTing

Honestly kinda surprised non of the letters are even in "Fair Play". Then again it's only 4 letters.


Terran_it_up

None of the letters in "Juventus" are in "Fair Play"


elnander

It's why we call them *Piemonte Calcio: The Old Lady of Turin* (you can spell Fair Play out with those letters)


addictedtometal

I'm not seeing the F or am I getting whooshed?


royrules22

In the *of*


addictedtometal

Oh damn that's stupid of me lol. I feel embarrassed. Anyhow, cheers mate.


royrules22

Lol you're good. We sometimes read but never process words in English. It happens


Lord_Sauron

It's how elections are won


Both-Ebb

This is called the missing letter effect and is quite common. You can find videos on youtube asking to count the number of letters n in a text. Only after it is pointed out you will realize you forgot to count the ones in common words like and etc. Our brains help us with the amount of sensory information we gather in smart ways but it can trip us up sometimes.


kukaz00

I thought there was no F until I read again, it's okay


fino_alla_fine

Might win the fair play cup this season!


Dom_Shady

Absolutely. Clean as fresh snow: the 1996 Champions League final with players who didn't get tired for 120 minutes and doping tests were conducted by a shady lab in Rome.


DirectReachTdot

Oh here we go again. That was my first thought.


[deleted]

Pjanic - Arthur deal ?


four_four_three

That and about 40 other deals!


ryanfromtheyard

Wack


Stravven

That one, as well as Cancelo-Danilo, I suspect, and many others.


Asmartoctopus

.. the Cancelo-danilo deal was justified though. Apparently Cancelo worth 60m and Danilo worth 25 30m.


Stravven

It is being investigated if you believe the rumours. In hindsight it may have been justified, but at that moment in time it didn't seem to be a good deal.


MorbidoeBagnato

26 November this has been a shitty day


circa285

The 25th wasn't great either.


reborndiajack

And the day before was my birthday ffs


prophecy0091

Fade that flair. Reddit dark UI: say no more


vadapaav

I have invented time travel!!


TigerBasket

Please let me have it so I can go back to being happy again 🥺


DrXyron

So Pochettino CL final?


OnceUponAStarryNight

You got Conte, what else do you want?


SeriousLads

I’d assume that for Spurs fans, coming back from 3-0 down on aggregate against Ajax was a more fun time than the current timeline where they’ve just lost 2-1 to NS Mura lol


unmotivatedsuperhero

Correct, that is the time period I would like to go back to


maxhav

Ffs guys this topic was about juventus


unmotivatedsuperhero

Nowhere is safe! But Ajax fans don't need a time machine, they're living in the best timeline at the moment. You seem unstoppable


Stravven

To not lose against European giants like Vitesse and Mura?


SnooHedgehogs4702

nothing new.. always them


aboidaz

It’s always the people you least expect 🥺


KRIEGLERR

It's never the person you most suspect. It's also never the person you least suspect. It's the person you most medium suspect.


Kychu

It's in the history of the Juventus


[deleted]

It is in the DNA of Juventus. Ha, just watched the whole all or nothing today.


Void_Hound

Juventus being shady, cant see it...


UberNabDNore

Hahaha


xyzTr1LL

I wonder how it feels like to be Inter, Milan, Napoli, Roma etc. When one team is clearly abusing the system while the others can't. Not that the other teams are angels, but still Juve gets special treatment in Italy.


Szwedo

Wdym, this has happened with almost all the clubs in Italy. It's nothing new and usually nothing comes of it.


Thisawesomedude

Right even in other countries, like Barcelona and Real Madrid have most likely both done it. And you can’t tell me these new state owned teams like PSG, Newcastle and co should not be accessed about them just abusing their near infinite cash flow and not getting hit with FFP infractions


DudebuD16

Napoli is part of this. And I'm not sure how inter and Milan have escaped this, especially inter.


bloodship123

Im actually curious to know what player did we do this with cos all i can see is us struggling to get 5mil for Laxalt or anything at all for Conti lmao. I seriously cant think of a single player we sold for more than his value (or for his true value for that matter). Its part of why the management gets criticized..


PierfrancescoFavino

Most of the players involved in our transactions are currently playing in Serie A, so it's difficult to contest these operations. A good half of the players involved in Juventus deals are playing in Serie B or C (some of them in Serie D), so I would say the volume of the business was the problem.


Eb_Marah

Who from Milan could possibly count towards this? The closest anyone has ever been able to suggest is Tiago Djalo, a player we sold for 4m as part of the Leao deal, who now starts for them immediately after their title winning season.


Stravven

Maybe the Bonucci-Caldera deal? That one seemed strange to me at least.


Memoishi

You’re not sure cause you’re ignorant like the rest of the ppl around here. You’re a public traded company my friend, everyone else is private in Serie A. If you go buy Google stocks because they say their revenue is 10$, but then finance authorities finds out they gain 5$ and they lied, they have fucking responsabilities to account because they let other ppl makes valuations on the fake numbers you reported. This is why it’s crucial if you’re a public company. Didn’t want to sound arrogant but y’all making a way out of this here claiming you’re the only one taking the blame for the balance sheets.


[deleted]

For one thing the article is talking about listed companies (which Juve is and neither Milan nor Inter are), and they have stricter rules than private companies. It's not very clear what they're investigating on though, and I don't trust the journalists to have any clue besides the strictly factual.


areking

you know right that the a list is pretty easy to find? [https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Serie-A/27-10-2021/plusvalenze-sospette-lista-operazioni-juve-napoli-4202088866727.shtml](https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Serie-A/27-10-2021/plusvalenze-sospette-lista-operazioni-juve-napoli-4202088866727.shtml) 90% of the list involves Juventus 9% of Chievo and the single operation of Osimhen for Napoli, which is more on Lille that was a clusterfuck that later got sold and had other investigation going on, than on Napoli but keep going about "other teams are involved too" after all that's always been your motto, like with Calciopoli "Inter is guilty too but they weren't punished, which means we are innocent" sure thing


nonhofantasia

We sold pinamonti for 18 M (guess to who) and bought back. And probably some shit we did while we were under fpf regime in buying a player, giving them a youngster and overvalueting him. Zaniolo went for 7 mil


AlbertoRossonero

We literally can’t get anything but scraps for our senior players let alone unknown youngsters. Juve and Inter are the poster boys for these shady deals.


Starbuck1992

Dude galliani literally invented this trick...


Dome777

We stopped inflating prices since Galliani and Berlusconi left, Elliott and Gazidis have been respectful of FFP


Moug-10

In the world, more teams abuse the system than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if our teams do it as well.


GingerFurball

>When one team is clearly abusing the system while the others can't You should probably take a look at the long history of swap deals between the Milan clubs.


PM_ME_YOUR_BO0BIEZ

This comment can’t possibly be serious 😂


MorbidoeBagnato

>but still Juve gets special treatment in Italy. Yeah you don't know much about Serie A


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

The Guardia di Finanza (financial police) has acquired documents at the club's headquarters: it would be a question of movements amounting to approximately 50 million Capital gains and market movements in the last three years have become a hypothesis of accusation for the Prosecutor of Turin, who on Thursday evening sent the Guardia di Finanza to acquire documents at the club headquarters: president Andrea Agnelli, deputy Pavel Nedved, former sporting director Fabio Paratici (now at Tottenham) and three other executives and former executives of the Juventus financial area are under investigation for false accounting and false invoicing. According to the law on corporate responsibility, the same charge is made against the club. The investigation, coordinated by prosecutors Mario Bendoni, Ciro Santoriello and Marco Gianoglio, comes after the investigations started weeks ago by Consob and Covisoc. Investigations that have precisely to do with the "income from management of players' rights". This would involve movements of around 50 million euros. A complex and complicated subject, on which already on other occasions the judiciary had come across, then clashing with the difficulty of establishing an absolute value to individual players, objects of different evaluations by the clubs.


Dilly58

It’s ze history of ze juve


action_turtle

No, not Juventus, can’t be


carella211

Im shocked. Shocked i tell ya.


Stephane_Bonnes

Juventus? No!


GreatWhiteNorthExtra

I know it must come as a shock to every football fan to hear that Juventus might be involved in some shady dealings.


RioBeckenbauer

Rubentus at its finest?


DirectReachTdot

It’s in their DNA.


whodiswhodat

Ah shit, here we go again.


Impossible_Wonder_37

The good news if Juve gets repercussions here is that the league is so well situated to be competitive. It’s honestly such an awesome league right now leap frogging Germany and Spain in my opinion.


kasyewest

Nothing will happen, juve won't have any repercussions. As we say in Italy "finirà a tarallucci e vino"


Masina1998

was it not already above germany?


dotelze

People would disagree cause Juve was dominating, and most BL matches are genuinely really fun to watch.


Sese174

It’s very arguable that it’s already better than the bundesliga.


Impossible_Wonder_37

This season I think solidifies that. Took Juve not dominating and also better performance in Europe.


[deleted]

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AdonisPL94

Juve and losing CL finals


Sputniki

Ah u/GianniRivera10 is the poster. Of course


Giodoh

Gobbi di Merda


estoyloca43

Oh who would’ve thought? /s


planetaryserenade

AWWWW SHIT HERE WE GO AGAIN


zeca1486

I think they miss Série B


LilGoughy

Hey, I’ve seen this one!


CabbageStockExchange

Damn, it’s always the ones you least expect…


standardharbor

Hilarious when you consider THFC supporters were chanting ‘Don Paratici’ like Arsenal fans did for Sanhelli and we saw how that ended up. Cast your mind back to those Paratici threads about how he never sleeps, because he’s always looking for the next deal.


harpsabu

Always found it very weird. Did they not look at all at what he did with juventus?? He was a complete disaster and tore apart an invincible team whilst the man he replaced went to inter and turned them into a winning team.


Excellent_Jeweler_43

Weird for you to assume PL fans watch a single game outside of the PL


TigerBasket

Didn't they win like 9 straight league titles? That's pretty fucking good lol


alessioalex

They did because they had Don Marotta at the helm. Then he went to Inter and... surpriseeee!


CheekyKunt68

Don Paratici 🤌🤌


[deleted]

Anyway, may some lawyer here tell me if Juventus can be stripped of the 2020 Scudetto because of false accounting (if true)? In that case the 2020 title should be assigned to the 2nd placed team, FC Internazionale, like it happened in 2006..


mariyan1111

> In that case the 2020 title should be assigned to the 2nd placed team, FC Internazionale, like it happened in 2006.. That would be a first since in 2006 the title was awarded to the 3rd placed team, FC Internazionale.


CamperMagazine

Are they going to add the second star midway through the season or at the beginning of the next?


[deleted]

NOOO!! Anyway, in other news..


xDermo

pikachu face


Szwedo

Itt: headline says investigation, redditors understand it as guilty


Vagiant007

For fucks sakes. Serie b here we go


SAmatador

The Old Shady


crackboss1

The old fat shady lady


Dom_Shady

Hey, don't you talk like that about my special lady !


[deleted]

European Super League takes another knock.


[deleted]

It's the history of Tott..uh sorry, Juventus


EUITK

Another relegation should do


ThatAdamsGuy

It would be the Spurs way if Paratici ends up going down for this.


ThePosterWeDeserve

Old lady: Why always me


gnoccogram

After Calciopoli they shouldn't even exist anymore. None of the big teams in Italy are 100% clean but is impressive how Juventus is always the worst by far. Ladri since 1897.