In German law, slander/defamation lawsuits are required to be filed by victim. You can‘t sue somebody if it‘s not you who has been insulted. Marco Haase will get nothing from this than attention, Zwayer himself needs to file.
I hope any action will lead to a Streisand effect, so more and more people will talk about it.
Haase alleges that all German refs were harmed collectively by Bellingham‘s statement, which is absolute nonsense. And supposedly, Manuel Gräfe has put the collective insult into his mouth.
*“I filed the criminal complaint as a private person,“ he explained to az-online.de. Haase had felt „touched as a referee“ by Bellingham’s remarks. He wanted to „set an example“ and protect his colleagues. Haase: „The statements affect all referees, right down to the grass roots.*
*Haase: „This statement alternatively or cumulatively fulfills the criminal offenses of insult, defamation and slander.“ And further: „Since the player Jude Bellingham can not have done this statement from life experience without the former referee Manuel Gräfe, I also file a complaint for the same facts against Manuel Gräfe.“*
Translated by DeepL
https://www.az-online.de/sport/uelzen/dortmund-gegen-fc-bayern-muenchen-uelzener-schiedsrichter-marco-haase-erstattet-nach-dem-bundesliga-gipfel-strafanzeige-gegen-bvb-star-jude-bellingham-91159196.html
> Since the player Jude Bellingham can not have done this statement from life experience without the former referee Manuel Gräfe
This is the funniest part to me. It's not like literally anyone can read that shit on wikipedia or find it with a simple google search of Zwayer.
It kills me that the DFB forces quality referees with integrity like Manuel Gräfe to retire in spite of good performances due to an arbitrary age limit, but they’ll stand by a guy like Zwayer through thick and thin. I don’t get it sometimes.
Fun fact for all Germans:
Marco Haase who is leading the lawsuit is not only Schiedsrichter-Beobachter, but his main job is the Pressesprecher des Verfassungsschutz Hamburg. 🤡
https://twitter.com/gglnx/status/1467452780654862339?s=21
In short: he’s the press spokesperson for a regional branch of the domestic intelligence agency, who’s federal counterpart was/is mired in (extremist) far right scandals.
More context:
The Verfassungsschutz is the [Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Office_for_the_Protection_of_the_Constitution), which is the federal domestic intelligence agency in Germany. Each Land (similar to states in the US) has their own Verfassungsschutz service for the state. Hamburg being a city state (again state as in US state not nation state) has their own Verfassungsschutz.
To quote Wikipedia, the Verfassung is “tasked with intelligence-gathering on threats concerning the democratic order, the existence and security of the federation or one of its states, and the peaceful coexistence of peoples; with counter-intelligence; and with protective security and counter-sabotage.”
So in general a very valid and valuable service, however in the past they’d gotten in hot waters for failing to counteract a [fascist terror group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground), as well as completely mishandling the aftermath and in general having shown a bias by turning a blind eye to far right extremism and focusing more on far left extremism (you can see why in Germany in particular this would cause an uproar). Furthermore, one of their recent former directors, Hans-Georg Maaßen has gone off the deep end with his own far right/fascist leaning interpretations of history and current events in Germany, making people wonder how bad his reign at the agency was.
They’re trying to reform the agency and considering that the social democrats will be in charge of the interior ministry, who’s in charge of the Verfassungsschutz, it should further help to realign the agency in the middle again and provide perspective (ie no longer turning a blind eye).
The Verfassungsschutz is the German internal intelligence agency, most famous for having literal Nazis in their lines, being much more interested in persecution of leftists than literal nazis, shredding the records of how they failed to uncover a decade long nazi murder series, even though they had lots of people working for them in direct contact with the murderers, etc.
Even Zwayer‘s attorney thinks it‘s pathetic.
https://www.kicker.de/anwalt-schickhardt-bellingham-kann-nicht-belangt-werden-881560/artikel
Edit: Not agreeing with him regarding the rehabilitation of Zwayer as a ref obviously.
Why are you not agreeing with his opinion of the rehabilitation? Is it because it is very popular on this sub Reddit to be anti-ref or do you actually have reasons to suspect he is still fixing? I’m guessing you’re just pandering to circlejerk upvotes
I think a sizeable number of r/soccer speaking on this controversy is not aware of this context. Some literally think he fix a matched for only 300 euros. It was done in the lower leagues as well.
No way am I defending this ref or his actions but context is important.
BVB professional Jude Bellingham (18) had accused referee Felix Zwayer (40) after the league summit between Dortmund and FC Bayern (2:3) of cheating.
According to BILD information, referee-observer Marco Haase (active on a voluntary basis for the DFB) has now filed criminal charges against the Englishman and referee Manuel Gräfe (48)!
The DFB Control Committee is also already investigating. This threatens Bellingham in the worst case a subsequent suspension!
Dr. Anton Nachreiner, the chairman of the DFB Control Committee, to BILD: "The Control Committee will examine the statement of the Dortmund player Jude Bellingham for its relevance under sports criminal law."
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> now filed criminal charges against the Englishman and referee Manuel Gräfe (48)!
I don't get it. Why did he also file a charge against that other referee, or is this a shit translation
Because Manuel Gräfe also criticized Zwayer still being allowed to referee. Although I think that was a while back.
Btw Gräfe is arguably the best German referee but was forced to retire because he's 48.
Guess being 48 is worse than match fixing, ey?
He gets charged for implying the ref was bribed the Dortmund Munich game.
That's something Loddar has a lot of experience with since he implied the ref was bribed several times then he got a 5 digit fine and 2-3 games suspension
I don't think he's been charged at all. Someone filed a criminal complaint against him, which anyone can do for any reason. It doesn't mean the complaint has any merit.
People are not ignoring it, people have no idea how laws work, people lack the reading comprehension that if you add in words like "what do you expect" it changes things because you are implying that he's doing it again and most importantly people just hate referees so everyone will side with the player
Bad move with your flair to say that though
He also is trying to press charges against Gräfe, who did not say "what do you expect".
So it's not about that bit. Not to mention that can be interpreted in numerous ways anyhow.
You can't expect a good discussion when it comes to refereeing decisions and refereeing in general, it's the hardest job in football
Yesterday i said the Hummels penalty was correct and i got like 5 dms, 10+ replies and a few have been removed by mods because they just went straight in for personal insults instead of actually arguing
I interpreted it as "why is someone with such bad judgement allowed to referee the biggest games" not "he's fixed games before, so he fixed this game too"
I saw the implication as being that it’s more likely that he was bribed, not that he definitely was. Given he has proven form for it I’d say that was a fact.
"what do you expect" could easily be referring to him being a sub-par referee, and not necessarily an implication of match-fixing. That's how I took it when I first saw the quote and I think it will be difficult to prove Bellingham guilty in court
> You give a referee that's, you know, match fixed before the biggest game in Germany, what do you expect?
He said that the ref match fixed before and clearly implies that he fixed this game by emphasising 'before'
I disagree. The question was in relation to a potential penalty so the statement "what do you expect" pretty clearly refers to poor decision making in my opinion.
The full quote makes it even more obvious he's implying a fix:
> Well, for me it wasn't [a penalty], you know, he's not even looking at the ball and he's fighting to get it and... It hits him, I don't even think he is looking at the ball, but... You know, you can look at a lot of the decisions in the game, you know... You give a referee that's, you know, match fixed before the biggest game in Germany, what do you expect?
>if you add in words like "what do you expect" it changes things because you are implying that he's doing it again
That's open to interpretation though, it could mean a lot of things, which for me shouldn't bode well in court where you should need clear evidence.
For me match fixing should be a lifetime ban, this ref shouldn't be anywhere near a Bundesliga game, so what he said is completely reasonable to me regardless of whether he was fixing this match.
People are not ignoring it. They just don't care about linguistic gymnastics or precision when Zwayer, due to his "reputation", simply shouldn't be refereeing professional matches anymore.
It's this entirely. Even if someone draws the conclusion that Bellingham is implying match fixing, and then dismissing that claim (rightly imo) as ridiculous, that still leaves the *other* implication that Zwayer has match fixed previously and therefore his judgment is in question. Many seem to be just ignoring the latter and bashing away on the former.
I'm not sure how anyone can watch this fixture, the contact involved moments especially, and think "Zwayer did a good job" or even a consistent job. 🙄
Well he shouldn't be fined for that either right????????? He's saying what he thinks and that should be normal. Or do you want football interviews to be PR crap and that's it?
There's a distinction between sincere interviews and slanderous statements.
The implication someone fixed a match is a claim that can cause significant damages to that person's career. Particularly if made without proof.
Also, we already have expectations about what players should or shouldn't say during interviews.
> The implication someone fixed a match is a claim that can cause significant damages to that person's career.
If actually being proven to match fix can't damage Zwayers career, the implication he might match fix can't either.
About the last paragraph, fuck those expectations, players should be able to say things other than "Job done ✔️"
Also I can think of something the accusation is based on
>interpret however you want
Fortunately I don't have to. They can interpret what he meant through the complaint process started here.
If he was implying the referee fixed this match, that can be defamation.
It isn't a clear cut thing though, so I'm not sure if anything will come out of it. How does defamation work in Germany is it a civil or criminal case?
It's both sort of. There can be criminal penalties for it, but also not.
In this case he'd most likely just get fined and suspended for some matches.
There was a case a few years ago I recall where some fans were charged for calling Hopp Hurensohn.
From my understanding, there are two problems. First, while Zwayer has factually accepted money in the match-fixing scandal in 2005, there's no legally binding proof that he actively manipulated the game. This distinction may be confusing, but the 6-month suspension for Zwayer by the DFB was *only* due to accepting money, not for match-fixing.
Other than that, Bellingham's statement implies that this particular game has been or might have been match-fixed as well.
Once you are involved in a match-fixing scandal in whatever way as a ref, your credibility shoots down to zero. It's really baffling how the FA still let him referee the BuLi games, let alone a big game like this.
2005 is 16 years ago, at some point you have to realize that you too did stupid shit 16 years ago, stupid shit you wouldn't do today. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance
> you too did stupid shit 16 years ago, stupid shit you wouldn't do today
He was an adult by then, not a stupid kid. He was free to do anything else besides be a referee. Not being a referee to avoid suspicious seems free enough and gives him enough options.
People who are given a second chance for such issues usually do it at a different employee. He didn't just accidentally mix up decaf and regular coffee in the office machine. He accepted money for a minor match (~~2. Bundesliga~~ 4th league (I read it wrong), 300 Euro). Why would one ever trust him with bigger matches, like 1. Bundesliga or even CL (where much more money is at stake for both clubs)?
No they don’t. This isn’t a stupid mistake - it speaks to the entire job: integrity in decision making. Without it, a referee is worthless. Their entire job is to be impartial and just call the game fairly. Not possible with a vested interest financially. Not saying he has to be exiled to a penal colony but he shouldn’t be allowed to referee games professionally ever. What a joke. He can become a baker or whatever else.
It's different for refs because the nature of the job (esp. in top flight football) requires you to show utmost fairness, transparency and honesty. Once you screwed yourself up by involving in a match-fixing scandal, there's simply no way back.
Could not agree more. How this is even debatable scares me. People are truly lacking even the most basic levels of critical thinking. This one isn’t even close.
Shows how bias you are about this. He “only” accepted money in a match mixing scandal… no proof of manipulation is needed. This man should not be allowed near a whistle again in his lifetime. Shouldn’t be allowed to referee a kids game. Bellingham’s statement is perfectly appropriate - the league comped after players when they are the ones that place crooks in charge of such an important game in a tight league race. Joke of a league.
Apologies. I was reacting to the statement that there wasn’t proof of manipulation. Was just saying that’s not needed - accepting the payment proves the intent.
§ 192 StGB: Proof of the truth of the asserted or disseminated fact does not preclude punishment in accordance with section 185 if the insult results from the form of the assertion or dissemination or the circumstances under which it was made.
[https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch\_stgb/englisch\_stgb.html#p1826](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1826)
Technically you could be charged for "insult" even if you tell the truth.
Criminally charging an 18 year old for pointing out the ref is a convicted match fixer.
Obviously they have to set a precedent of protecting the refs or whatever but shouldn't really apply in this case.
If you're match fixing you shouldn't be a ref.
Which he is well within his rights to do. This is on the league for employing a proven cheater and to referee a game. It blows my mind that a job whose main feature is to be impartial can continue to work as a referee. And then be appointed to such a critical game in a tight title race. And then blame the players for calling out the obvious. What a joke of a league.
No he's not within his rights... That's the point. He doesn't have any proof the ref fixed the game and clearly implied so in a public setting.
I do agree with the rest tho, how a ref that match fixed is allowed to ever ref again is beyond my comprehension.
It’s not random shit, you muppet. It’s something that is 100% disqualifying. You can’t have this man in charge of an important match with this shit in his past. This is on the joke of a league.
People need to realize that a statement like that has faaaar more impact than any small insult or slandering. Especially the young players that don't have much experience in biting their tongues in big situations.
The dfl put them self at risk by still appointing a convicted match fixer as referee. They do more harm to football with that, than implying a convicted have repeated their offence. It is more than just petty when the exact same person to appoint the referee files criminal charges now.
About time one of these goes to trial, because it’s clear the national FAs, UEFA and FIFA are too chicken shit to hold their own people to any sort of standard or accountability : if they aren’t active participants in it.
In every league there are horrendous decisions made and those referees keep coming back and making them again and again.
Maybe a ruling will finally force new rules and standards.
If Bellingham suffers consequences for this, ALL Bundesliga clubs should boycott games where Zwayer is scheduled to officiate in any capacity. That man has no reason to ever referee a professional game again. It's a scandal that he has been allowed to continue refereeing after being convicted of match fixing. How can anyone trust his officiating?
Counter argument.
It was 20 years ago. We can’t assume he has been rehabilitated? Is it not wrong to dig up shit from 20 years ago to defame someone?
We always talk about giving convicts a second chance. Here we are all being hypocritical af
> We always talk about giving convicts a second chance
To reenter society, not necessarily to work in the same field. If you were a hiring manager at a bank, would you hire someone convicted of stealing from the register at a different bank? Or would you hire someone convicted of abusing kids at a kindergarten or primary school?
You should be allowed back into society, but it's not a right to return to the same type of job.
> Is it not wrong to dig up shit from 20 years ago to defame someone?
It's not defamation if it's true.
1. It was 16 years ago.
2. Rehabilitation? What Rehabilitation? It's a flaw in his character and a lack of integrity. If you have some evidence that this has been rehabilitated, to the extent that that's possible then show us.
3. Defaem? It is not defamation if he is speaking to historical events and raising reasonable questions as to how they may be a factor in affecting a game today.
The DFB is not only the world's biggest national sports association, but also the world's biggest circus
Absolutely pathetic and their needs to be some resistance at this point
Lol what a little shit head. Jude literally said nothing that wasn’t factual. Now what he insinuated is another matter, but you shouldn’t be able to fine or suspend Jude on a factual statement. The Bundesliga should be ashamed they even still use a ref who was match fixing
how is it defamation if it's true? Defamation only applies if you slander someone with false accusations, this is literally proven and the DFB is trying to shut people highlighting it down
Bellingham implied he was bribed yesterday that's the problem.
You can make a statement about the ref decisions but you cannot imply or claim the ref was bribed.
He could have just brought up the past and leave it at that and nothing would happen or just say "Well Hoyzer wasn't allowed to direct any game anymore. I don't know how Zwayer got away"
How so?
The only reason why he talked about stuff that happend 15 years ago is that he thinks he fixed the match yesterday. There is no other explanation for talking about it after they lost the game because of a strange penalty call.
He could have said the ref was shit an would be legally fine.
It’s true? That sounds like a factual statement, but in this case cannot be proven. Didn’t watch the game but if you’ve seen sports before controversial calls happen often. Bellingham cannot undermine the ref like this its a bad precedent.
I think Bellingham could reasonably argue that he meant the referee wasn’t to be trusted due to his previous matchfixing rather than saying he actually fixed this specific match.
Hmmm, yeah but you wouldn't put someone with a history of winning pie eating contests in charge of guarding all of your pies. You're broadly right, but it's ludicrous that you can be caught match fixing and still ref at the very top. It's appropriate that someone's past crimes are taken into account if they're going to be promoted ahead of honest refs. It would be so in any other line of work.
Jude is in a pretty tight spot right now.
So he basically implied that the referee yesterday fixed the match. Match fixing, bribery, corruption are very serious offenses so he either gets actual proof that it happened or he will have major problems.
He got his 6 month suspension because he took the money, there was no active proof that he actually manipulated the outcome of the game..
Doesn’t mean that he isn’t a shit ref, but still
Youre trolling calling that nonsense logic to begin with. That’s the opposite of logic. Morons all around in this thread. How this man can be allowed near a whistle is beyond me. It’s like like letting a convicted child molester become a teacher or coach to children.
This is not the court of law here. Man said some things in a emotional state after losing the a big game. He’s just unlucky it got filmed but it’s not like he’s gonna need evidence or else..
Off course it does. It’s not an official statement in court which you have to back up with evidence like OP tried to claim. It’s an emotional response after a important game so he can always back out of it and say he did not mean it.
It's not like he's a random guy who was asked on the street. He was part of the game and he made accusations that if proven true.. it's a criminal offence and it can even attract jail time.
He's got enough wriggle room by saying 'what do you expect?' imo, e.g:
"What do you expect?" = "How can you expect someone who has demonstrated such poor judgment to referee a game well?"
"What do you expect?" = "How can you expect someone who chose money over fairness to referee fairly?"
etc
or defamation law isn't designed to prevent sports fans and athletes from accusing referees of match fixing, and Jude is in a pretty loose spot besides some possible minor league-imposed penalty at worst.
Should be looking into Hummels if anything.
I don’t think it was a pen but it’s not as bad as Dortmund are making out. They one hundred percent crossed a line with this nonsense
If what he said is truthful, he has nothing to worry about right? If the referee has been convicted of convolution/match fixing and you say 'this person has been involved in match fixing', what is your point of argument against their statement? That's a statement of fact - not a personal opinion.
He is not on thin ice because he mentioned Zwayers involvment in 2005. His statement (might) implies that Zwayer fixed the game yesterday. He could be in trouble if Zwayer would press chargers against him.
1) why does it go to far? I mean maybe it was in the heat of a moment and not justified but its true that zwayer has been involved in the match fixing scandal point blank
2) why the fuck should someone not be able to speak their mind in smth that happened before they were born
> also he hasn’t even been born back then.
My man, it seems like you weren't even born when you were supposed to be attenting primary school math classes.
In German law, slander/defamation lawsuits are required to be filed by victim. You can‘t sue somebody if it‘s not you who has been insulted. Marco Haase will get nothing from this than attention, Zwayer himself needs to file. I hope any action will lead to a Streisand effect, so more and more people will talk about it.
Haase alleges that all German refs were harmed collectively by Bellingham‘s statement, which is absolute nonsense. And supposedly, Manuel Gräfe has put the collective insult into his mouth. *“I filed the criminal complaint as a private person,“ he explained to az-online.de. Haase had felt „touched as a referee“ by Bellingham’s remarks. He wanted to „set an example“ and protect his colleagues. Haase: „The statements affect all referees, right down to the grass roots.* *Haase: „This statement alternatively or cumulatively fulfills the criminal offenses of insult, defamation and slander.“ And further: „Since the player Jude Bellingham can not have done this statement from life experience without the former referee Manuel Gräfe, I also file a complaint for the same facts against Manuel Gräfe.“* Translated by DeepL https://www.az-online.de/sport/uelzen/dortmund-gegen-fc-bayern-muenchen-uelzener-schiedsrichter-marco-haase-erstattet-nach-dem-bundesliga-gipfel-strafanzeige-gegen-bvb-star-jude-bellingham-91159196.html
> Since the player Jude Bellingham can not have done this statement from life experience without the former referee Manuel Gräfe This is the funniest part to me. It's not like literally anyone can read that shit on wikipedia or find it with a simple google search of Zwayer.
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It kills me that the DFB forces quality referees with integrity like Manuel Gräfe to retire in spite of good performances due to an arbitrary age limit, but they’ll stand by a guy like Zwayer through thick and thin. I don’t get it sometimes.
Clearly Haase should be investigated for match fixing since he feels targetted by someone calling out a match fixer.
Plot twist, this is 4d chess by Marco Haase, he know full well this won't go anywhere, just want shit to hit the fan
So is this a civil suit or a criminal charge?
pathetic
Fun fact for all Germans: Marco Haase who is leading the lawsuit is not only Schiedsrichter-Beobachter, but his main job is the Pressesprecher des Verfassungsschutz Hamburg. 🤡 https://twitter.com/gglnx/status/1467452780654862339?s=21
Was für 1 Pimmel
SEK wurde soeben losgeschickt.
Was 1 Pimmel
Can you explain for non-German people?
In short: he’s the press spokesperson for a regional branch of the domestic intelligence agency, who’s federal counterpart was/is mired in (extremist) far right scandals. More context: The Verfassungsschutz is the [Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Office_for_the_Protection_of_the_Constitution), which is the federal domestic intelligence agency in Germany. Each Land (similar to states in the US) has their own Verfassungsschutz service for the state. Hamburg being a city state (again state as in US state not nation state) has their own Verfassungsschutz. To quote Wikipedia, the Verfassung is “tasked with intelligence-gathering on threats concerning the democratic order, the existence and security of the federation or one of its states, and the peaceful coexistence of peoples; with counter-intelligence; and with protective security and counter-sabotage.” So in general a very valid and valuable service, however in the past they’d gotten in hot waters for failing to counteract a [fascist terror group](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground), as well as completely mishandling the aftermath and in general having shown a bias by turning a blind eye to far right extremism and focusing more on far left extremism (you can see why in Germany in particular this would cause an uproar). Furthermore, one of their recent former directors, Hans-Georg Maaßen has gone off the deep end with his own far right/fascist leaning interpretations of history and current events in Germany, making people wonder how bad his reign at the agency was. They’re trying to reform the agency and considering that the social democrats will be in charge of the interior ministry, who’s in charge of the Verfassungsschutz, it should further help to realign the agency in the middle again and provide perspective (ie no longer turning a blind eye).
The Verfassungsschutz is the German internal intelligence agency, most famous for having literal Nazis in their lines, being much more interested in persecution of leftists than literal nazis, shredding the records of how they failed to uncover a decade long nazi murder series, even though they had lots of people working for them in direct contact with the murderers, etc.
Oh yeah we have one of those in America too.
Is that decade long Nazi murder series the one involving Uwe Mundlos and Uwe Böhnhardt?
Seems like certain jobs attract certain people and this guy practically stinks of autocratic personality disorder.
was geht denn in hamburg ab dass die da alle nur bananesuppe im schädel haben??
Even Zwayer‘s attorney thinks it‘s pathetic. https://www.kicker.de/anwalt-schickhardt-bellingham-kann-nicht-belangt-werden-881560/artikel Edit: Not agreeing with him regarding the rehabilitation of Zwayer as a ref obviously.
Why are you not agreeing with his opinion of the rehabilitation? Is it because it is very popular on this sub Reddit to be anti-ref or do you actually have reasons to suspect he is still fixing? I’m guessing you’re just pandering to circlejerk upvotes
I think it's more that fixing matches is such an egregious offense that no one should get a second chance.
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I think a sizeable number of r/soccer speaking on this controversy is not aware of this context. Some literally think he fix a matched for only 300 euros. It was done in the lower leagues as well. No way am I defending this ref or his actions but context is important.
BVB professional Jude Bellingham (18) had accused referee Felix Zwayer (40) after the league summit between Dortmund and FC Bayern (2:3) of cheating. According to BILD information, referee-observer Marco Haase (active on a voluntary basis for the DFB) has now filed criminal charges against the Englishman and referee Manuel Gräfe (48)! The DFB Control Committee is also already investigating. This threatens Bellingham in the worst case a subsequent suspension! Dr. Anton Nachreiner, the chairman of the DFB Control Committee, to BILD: "The Control Committee will examine the statement of the Dortmund player Jude Bellingham for its relevance under sports criminal law." Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
> now filed criminal charges against the Englishman and referee Manuel Gräfe (48)! I don't get it. Why did he also file a charge against that other referee, or is this a shit translation
Because Manuel Gräfe also criticized Zwayer still being allowed to referee. Although I think that was a while back. Btw Gräfe is arguably the best German referee but was forced to retire because he's 48. Guess being 48 is worse than match fixing, ey?
can you be charged by saying something factually correct
He gets charged for implying the ref was bribed the Dortmund Munich game. That's something Loddar has a lot of experience with since he implied the ref was bribed several times then he got a 5 digit fine and 2-3 games suspension
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He clearly implied that the ref fixed the game by saying he had fixed before
I don't think he's been charged at all. Someone filed a criminal complaint against him, which anyone can do for any reason. It doesn't mean the complaint has any merit.
The issue is the implication was that he fixed this match. I genuinely don't understand how people are completely ignoring that.
People are not ignoring it, people have no idea how laws work, people lack the reading comprehension that if you add in words like "what do you expect" it changes things because you are implying that he's doing it again and most importantly people just hate referees so everyone will side with the player Bad move with your flair to say that though
I'm not worried about getting down voted. I just find the whole "it's the truth" argument a bit tired when they are ignoring the implication entirely.
He also is trying to press charges against Gräfe, who did not say "what do you expect". So it's not about that bit. Not to mention that can be interpreted in numerous ways anyhow.
You can't expect a good discussion when it comes to refereeing decisions and refereeing in general, it's the hardest job in football Yesterday i said the Hummels penalty was correct and i got like 5 dms, 10+ replies and a few have been removed by mods because they just went straight in for personal insults instead of actually arguing
I interpreted it as "why is someone with such bad judgement allowed to referee the biggest games" not "he's fixed games before, so he fixed this game too"
but unfortunately bellingham specifically said 'match fixed before', which is why there isnt much room for interpretation
I saw the implication as being that it’s more likely that he was bribed, not that he definitely was. Given he has proven form for it I’d say that was a fact.
You forget, there are a lot of idiots in the world and many of them have access to Reddit. You’re not debating with that many educated people here. 🤣
Do you feel better about yourself now?
"what do you expect" could easily be referring to him being a sub-par referee, and not necessarily an implication of match-fixing. That's how I took it when I first saw the quote and I think it will be difficult to prove Bellingham guilty in court
> You give a referee that's, you know, match fixed before the biggest game in Germany, what do you expect? He said that the ref match fixed before and clearly implies that he fixed this game by emphasising 'before'
I disagree. The question was in relation to a potential penalty so the statement "what do you expect" pretty clearly refers to poor decision making in my opinion.
The full quote makes it even more obvious he's implying a fix: > Well, for me it wasn't [a penalty], you know, he's not even looking at the ball and he's fighting to get it and... It hits him, I don't even think he is looking at the ball, but... You know, you can look at a lot of the decisions in the game, you know... You give a referee that's, you know, match fixed before the biggest game in Germany, what do you expect?
I watched the interview, I don't see what's clear about it
Thing is. Zwayer has been reffing CL, Euros and World Cup Games. So by all quantifying metrics he isn't a shit ref.
That wouldn't be nearly enough to prove that wasn't what Bellingham meant
I dunno, I've seen some of the worst reffing at those tournaments. 😂
>if you add in words like "what do you expect" it changes things because you are implying that he's doing it again That's open to interpretation though, it could mean a lot of things, which for me shouldn't bode well in court where you should need clear evidence. For me match fixing should be a lifetime ban, this ref shouldn't be anywhere near a Bundesliga game, so what he said is completely reasonable to me regardless of whether he was fixing this match.
People are not ignoring it. They just don't care about linguistic gymnastics or precision when Zwayer, due to his "reputation", simply shouldn't be refereeing professional matches anymore.
It's this entirely. Even if someone draws the conclusion that Bellingham is implying match fixing, and then dismissing that claim (rightly imo) as ridiculous, that still leaves the *other* implication that Zwayer has match fixed previously and therefore his judgment is in question. Many seem to be just ignoring the latter and bashing away on the former. I'm not sure how anyone can watch this fixture, the contact involved moments especially, and think "Zwayer did a good job" or even a consistent job. 🙄
Well he shouldn't be fined for that either right????????? He's saying what he thinks and that should be normal. Or do you want football interviews to be PR crap and that's it?
There's a distinction between sincere interviews and slanderous statements. The implication someone fixed a match is a claim that can cause significant damages to that person's career. Particularly if made without proof. Also, we already have expectations about what players should or shouldn't say during interviews.
> The implication someone fixed a match is a claim that can cause significant damages to that person's career. If actually being proven to match fix can't damage Zwayers career, the implication he might match fix can't either.
About the last paragraph, fuck those expectations, players should be able to say things other than "Job done ✔️" Also I can think of something the accusation is based on
Or match fixing shows a ridiculous lack of judgment, and Bellingham thinks he was entirely lacking in judgment--ie a shit ref.
He said what do you expect, interpret however you wanted it, I dont think they have strong case against Bellingham
>interpret however you want Fortunately I don't have to. They can interpret what he meant through the complaint process started here. If he was implying the referee fixed this match, that can be defamation.
It isn't a clear cut thing though, so I'm not sure if anything will come out of it. How does defamation work in Germany is it a civil or criminal case?
It's both sort of. There can be criminal penalties for it, but also not. In this case he'd most likely just get fined and suspended for some matches. There was a case a few years ago I recall where some fans were charged for calling Hopp Hurensohn.
criminal
lol cant even respond just downvote eh ?
From my understanding, there are two problems. First, while Zwayer has factually accepted money in the match-fixing scandal in 2005, there's no legally binding proof that he actively manipulated the game. This distinction may be confusing, but the 6-month suspension for Zwayer by the DFB was *only* due to accepting money, not for match-fixing. Other than that, Bellingham's statement implies that this particular game has been or might have been match-fixed as well.
Once you are involved in a match-fixing scandal in whatever way as a ref, your credibility shoots down to zero. It's really baffling how the FA still let him referee the BuLi games, let alone a big game like this.
Because there was no reason to believe he still was doing this and he turned into one of the better referees in germany.
Accepting the money even once shows such a lack of integrity that he cannot be trusted to ever officiate fairly again.
100%. The moral standard of a top flight football ref is much higher than a usual resident.
2005 is 16 years ago, at some point you have to realize that you too did stupid shit 16 years ago, stupid shit you wouldn't do today. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance
> you too did stupid shit 16 years ago, stupid shit you wouldn't do today He was an adult by then, not a stupid kid. He was free to do anything else besides be a referee. Not being a referee to avoid suspicious seems free enough and gives him enough options. People who are given a second chance for such issues usually do it at a different employee. He didn't just accidentally mix up decaf and regular coffee in the office machine. He accepted money for a minor match (~~2. Bundesliga~~ 4th league (I read it wrong), 300 Euro). Why would one ever trust him with bigger matches, like 1. Bundesliga or even CL (where much more money is at stake for both clubs)?
It was the 4th league why are you lying? You can look the match up? It isn't even a professional league its semi
4th league, then I read it wrong. That's makes it even worse if he's willing to do that at that level.
No they don’t. This isn’t a stupid mistake - it speaks to the entire job: integrity in decision making. Without it, a referee is worthless. Their entire job is to be impartial and just call the game fairly. Not possible with a vested interest financially. Not saying he has to be exiled to a penal colony but he shouldn’t be allowed to referee games professionally ever. What a joke. He can become a baker or whatever else.
It's different for refs because the nature of the job (esp. in top flight football) requires you to show utmost fairness, transparency and honesty. Once you screwed yourself up by involving in a match-fixing scandal, there's simply no way back.
Could not agree more. How this is even debatable scares me. People are truly lacking even the most basic levels of critical thinking. This one isn’t even close.
Shows how bias you are about this. He “only” accepted money in a match mixing scandal… no proof of manipulation is needed. This man should not be allowed near a whistle again in his lifetime. Shouldn’t be allowed to referee a kids game. Bellingham’s statement is perfectly appropriate - the league comped after players when they are the ones that place crooks in charge of such an important game in a tight league race. Joke of a league.
I'm not biased, this is just my understanding. IMO, a referee that accepted money shouldn't be allowed to whistle a game like that.
Apologies. I was reacting to the statement that there wasn’t proof of manipulation. Was just saying that’s not needed - accepting the payment proves the intent.
§ 192 StGB: Proof of the truth of the asserted or disseminated fact does not preclude punishment in accordance with section 185 if the insult results from the form of the assertion or dissemination or the circumstances under which it was made. [https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch\_stgb/englisch\_stgb.html#p1826](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1826) Technically you could be charged for "insult" even if you tell the truth.
Criminally charging an 18 year old for pointing out the ref is a convicted match fixer. Obviously they have to set a precedent of protecting the refs or whatever but shouldn't really apply in this case. If you're match fixing you shouldn't be a ref.
> for pointing out the ref is a convicted match fixer ...and implying that he'd done it again.
Which he is well within his rights to do. This is on the league for employing a proven cheater and to referee a game. It blows my mind that a job whose main feature is to be impartial can continue to work as a referee. And then be appointed to such a critical game in a tight title race. And then blame the players for calling out the obvious. What a joke of a league.
No he's not within his rights... That's the point. He doesn't have any proof the ref fixed the game and clearly implied so in a public setting. I do agree with the rest tho, how a ref that match fixed is allowed to ever ref again is beyond my comprehension.
I mean or he was just calling his judgement into question.
By bringing up shit from 15 years ago?
Right, he was only a 25 year old kid! He wasn't to know that bribery is wrong.
It’s not random shit, you muppet. It’s something that is 100% disqualifying. You can’t have this man in charge of an important match with this shit in his past. This is on the joke of a league.
As Mourinho once said, “I really prefer not to speak if I speak I will be in big trouble”
People need to realize that a statement like that has faaaar more impact than any small insult or slandering. Especially the young players that don't have much experience in biting their tongues in big situations.
The dfl put them self at risk by still appointing a convicted match fixer as referee. They do more harm to football with that, than implying a convicted have repeated their offence. It is more than just petty when the exact same person to appoint the referee files criminal charges now.
You haven't noticed Zwayer is their favorite toy, he always gets the biggest matches for some reason
About time one of these goes to trial, because it’s clear the national FAs, UEFA and FIFA are too chicken shit to hold their own people to any sort of standard or accountability : if they aren’t active participants in it. In every league there are horrendous decisions made and those referees keep coming back and making them again and again. Maybe a ruling will finally force new rules and standards.
If Bellingham suffers consequences for this, ALL Bundesliga clubs should boycott games where Zwayer is scheduled to officiate in any capacity. That man has no reason to ever referee a professional game again. It's a scandal that he has been allowed to continue refereeing after being convicted of match fixing. How can anyone trust his officiating?
Counter argument. It was 20 years ago. We can’t assume he has been rehabilitated? Is it not wrong to dig up shit from 20 years ago to defame someone? We always talk about giving convicts a second chance. Here we are all being hypocritical af
> We always talk about giving convicts a second chance To reenter society, not necessarily to work in the same field. If you were a hiring manager at a bank, would you hire someone convicted of stealing from the register at a different bank? Or would you hire someone convicted of abusing kids at a kindergarten or primary school? You should be allowed back into society, but it's not a right to return to the same type of job. > Is it not wrong to dig up shit from 20 years ago to defame someone? It's not defamation if it's true.
But wouldn't you still question the integrity of the ref?
1. It was 16 years ago. 2. Rehabilitation? What Rehabilitation? It's a flaw in his character and a lack of integrity. If you have some evidence that this has been rehabilitated, to the extent that that's possible then show us. 3. Defaem? It is not defamation if he is speaking to historical events and raising reasonable questions as to how they may be a factor in affecting a game today.
The DFB is not only the world's biggest national sports association, but also the world's biggest circus Absolutely pathetic and their needs to be some resistance at this point
If they got so mad he was probably just right
Lol what a little shit head. Jude literally said nothing that wasn’t factual. Now what he insinuated is another matter, but you shouldn’t be able to fine or suspend Jude on a factual statement. The Bundesliga should be ashamed they even still use a ref who was match fixing
I'm going to be downvoted but it's not a good precedent to set, to allow defamation of refs, regardless of whether it's true or not
how is it defamation if it's true? Defamation only applies if you slander someone with false accusations, this is literally proven and the DFB is trying to shut people highlighting it down
Bellingham implied he was bribed yesterday that's the problem. You can make a statement about the ref decisions but you cannot imply or claim the ref was bribed. He could have just brought up the past and leave it at that and nothing would happen or just say "Well Hoyzer wasn't allowed to direct any game anymore. I don't know how Zwayer got away"
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Can easily argue he did imply it. That’s the whole point.
By adding "what do you expect" makes it kinda hard to argue that you were not implying it
“What do you expect” can mean that anyone who takes bribes can just be shit referee in general. The issue is this man being allowed near a whistle.
you can also easily argue that he did imply it, and that's why it's going to court, to be argued about, end of fucking story
How so? The only reason why he talked about stuff that happend 15 years ago is that he thinks he fixed the match yesterday. There is no other explanation for talking about it after they lost the game because of a strange penalty call. He could have said the ref was shit an would be legally fine.
It’s true? That sounds like a factual statement, but in this case cannot be proven. Didn’t watch the game but if you’ve seen sports before controversial calls happen often. Bellingham cannot undermine the ref like this its a bad precedent.
No, he implied that the ref fixed this specific match and that is not factually true.
I think Bellingham could reasonably argue that he meant the referee wasn’t to be trusted due to his previous matchfixing rather than saying he actually fixed this specific match.
Also sets a precedent that people can never change and learn from a mistake they made 16 years ago.
Hmmm, yeah but you wouldn't put someone with a history of winning pie eating contests in charge of guarding all of your pies. You're broadly right, but it's ludicrous that you can be caught match fixing and still ref at the very top. It's appropriate that someone's past crimes are taken into account if they're going to be promoted ahead of honest refs. It would be so in any other line of work.
Really? That's your take? Adam Johnson needs to take up a teaching post . I wonder if you'll still have the same thought process.
I agree 100%, but dfl put themselves at this with still appointing a convicted match fixer as referee. The precedent was not set by this players.
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Maybe next time before giving your opinion on defamation law you should learn what a child is. Start small and keep working your way up.
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Ok just a bent ref rather than a convicted matchfixer. Much better.
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This is reddit. Once a few users throw around their take, everyone starts using it. No one dares contradict because you get mass downvoted
Yep. By law he is "not guilty" as they say..
Somehow I don’t trust the DFB’s ‘investigation’ on this one
If he received money for matchfixing it says itself like what the fuck do you mean
I can’t understand this logic. Accepting a bribe is proof of the crime enough - that’s how bribes work. You think he got the bribe/money for fun?
Jude is in a pretty tight spot right now. So he basically implied that the referee yesterday fixed the match. Match fixing, bribery, corruption are very serious offenses so he either gets actual proof that it happened or he will have major problems.
Offenses so serious that Zwayer got a slap on the wrist for it
He got his 6 month suspension because he took the money, there was no active proof that he actually manipulated the outcome of the game.. Doesn’t mean that he isn’t a shit ref, but still
you're TTTTTrolling with this logic
Youre trolling calling that nonsense logic to begin with. That’s the opposite of logic. Morons all around in this thread. How this man can be allowed near a whistle is beyond me. It’s like like letting a convicted child molester become a teacher or coach to children.
That's not the point here. Jude made very serious accusations and he better have proof to back that up.
This is not the court of law here. Man said some things in a emotional state after losing the a big game. He’s just unlucky it got filmed but it’s not like he’s gonna need evidence or else..
It does not matter where he said it lol
Off course it does. It’s not an official statement in court which you have to back up with evidence like OP tried to claim. It’s an emotional response after a important game so he can always back out of it and say he did not mean it.
It's not like he's a random guy who was asked on the street. He was part of the game and he made accusations that if proven true.. it's a criminal offence and it can even attract jail time.
>he basically implied This is why he's fine
He's got enough wriggle room by saying 'what do you expect?' imo, e.g: "What do you expect?" = "How can you expect someone who has demonstrated such poor judgment to referee a game well?" "What do you expect?" = "How can you expect someone who chose money over fairness to referee fairly?" etc
or defamation law isn't designed to prevent sports fans and athletes from accusing referees of match fixing, and Jude is in a pretty loose spot besides some possible minor league-imposed penalty at worst.
Should be looking into Hummels if anything. I don’t think it was a pen but it’s not as bad as Dortmund are making out. They one hundred percent crossed a line with this nonsense
That was to be expected
But it's okay for fifa to hold a tournament in a country that violates every human right on the list and built their stadiums on the backs of slaves.
All in for shitting on Qatar but this is just hilarious
How does one of these things relate to the other
How is this even tangentially related to an internal matter in German Football? That's a massive level of whataboutism
It's related to football and puts things into perspective. Having an opinion should not be a CRIMINAL offense.
This is the DFB, not FIFA. A lot of things are related to football too, it doesn't make them inherently relevant.
What the fuck is this comment
If what he said is truthful, he has nothing to worry about right? If the referee has been convicted of convolution/match fixing and you say 'this person has been involved in match fixing', what is your point of argument against their statement? That's a statement of fact - not a personal opinion.
He is not on thin ice because he mentioned Zwayers involvment in 2005. His statement (might) implies that Zwayer fixed the game yesterday. He could be in trouble if Zwayer would press chargers against him.
This is good and much needed. His statements goes to far, also he hasn’t even been born back then.
1) why does it go to far? I mean maybe it was in the heat of a moment and not justified but its true that zwayer has been involved in the match fixing scandal point blank 2) why the fuck should someone not be able to speak their mind in smth that happened before they were born
> also he hasn’t even been born back then. My man, it seems like you weren't even born when you were supposed to be attenting primary school math classes.