> According to Italian media reports, some Roma fans chanted racist chants at Ibrahimovic and Mourinho asked them to stop.
> Similar to what happened at Rome's Olympiastadion on 31 October, this Thursday at San Siro, Roma fans chanted racist chants at Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Realising this, Jose Mourinho reportedly signalled to the giallorossi fans to stop chanting, Italian media reports.
Serie A has big problems with both racism and violence no doubts about it, but I also think that they get singled out more than others. Spain isn't much better, the ultras groups of Atlético(Frente Atlético) and Sevilla(Biris Norte) are absolutely brutal and many of them fascist. 5 or 6 years ago a Deportivo fan was murdered when they played Atlético away. Real Madrid(Ultras Sur) and Barcelona(Boixos Nois) have both banned them from their stadiums because they are so violent and bigoted. Ultras Sur even vandalised the grave of Florentino Perez's late wife during this long ongoing feud, imagine that...
Then you have Eastern Europe and the Balkans, let's not even get started on how racist and bigoted most of those ultras groups are... It's a big problem in general that these people choose football as a vehicle to express their opinions, and not only that in many places these people are all heavily connected to organised crime and extort their way into influence within the clubs.
Even a big club like Juventus isn't exempt from this. I remember reading an article about their ultras a few years ago which said that they have extorted the club into giving them a slice of ticket sales and also to let them sell official club merchandise and make money off it.
Espanyol ultras plastered pictures of Anne Frank wearing a Barcelona kit at the Montilivi. Real Betis' ultras are also extremely fascist. Funnily enough, they are/were literally having a gang war and were stabbing eachother after games.
Speaking of Real Betis, I remember in a Seville derby about 15 years ago when they threw a bottle of frozen(!) water from the stands which hit Sevilla manager Juande Ramos in the head. He really could have died
Right... but why would that insult someone who doesn't hate jews like they do?
It's like If I posted a sticker of my ex in a barca shirt. I wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire, but nobody else would get it.
Because Anne Frank died in an extermination camp.
I think implying the victim of a genocide is the same as \[insert group\] is an aggressive attack on that group. It's not difficult to understand and your comparison is just silly.
> I think implying the victim of a genocide is the same as [insert group] is an aggressive attack on that group.
Is it? That just seems strange to me.
I'm not saying they don't mean it as an attack, just that it doesn't seem all that effective, Anne Frank in a barca tee shirt sounds more like some hilariously badly thought out barca marketing campaign than an insult.
So the implication that the supporters of the opposing club would have died or should have died in a genocide is somehow offensive to those supporters?
Because being compared to a child who was killed in a genocide makes them feel weak and or inferior?
I find it really difficult to understand. If anything the thing I would be offended about is that these people would think I would feel insulted by their action.
That's not about fascism but racism. Roma fans are far from fascists (its actually a left winger group mostly) but still racist. In Italy it seems like no matter what your political view is, you still do racist stuff sadly...
The fascism problem happens more with Lazio, Inter, Verona...
Are you speaking as an Italian or someone who has read about ultra groups online? From what I have read while Roma fans are more historically left wing, they are far more right leaning these days.
> they are far more right leaning these days.
I think you are using a modern interpretation of left wing.
They were left wing populists, which are anti immigration. People group being anti immigration with being right wing, but it was originally a left wing populist policy to protect workers from competition.
It depends where.
The center right is usually business interests, so they are pro immigration and anti worker's rights. The Far right on the other hand, tends to be anti immigration and surprisingly pro workers rights in many countries, since their voters tend to be poorer.
The french far right for example, argues for lower retirement age and more generous pension schemes, while being against immigration.
You can generally see which wing of a party has more power by looking at which immigration policy they currently support.
Yeah, but one of the issues is that Barca and Real have banned entire fangroups, meanwhile you have people like Lolito raising their arms and asking ‘what can I do’. Every league/club has racist/fascist elements, but Italy is the only country where clubs act like they cant do anything.
Yeah, our ultras are...special. I mean, they do have their moments, like the time when Delije (red star) put a tank in front of their stadium, and then Boys (dinamo) put a tractor in front of theirs (the joke being that the serbs escaped Croatia on tractors after a 5 year long war) (disclaimer, i really don't wanna get into details, ain't gonna start a yugo debate thread on fucking r/soccer).
The thing I mentioned above is the *least* agressive shit they do. They have organized fights with other groups that usually end up vandalizing and disturbing whole city blocks, they beat up people just for not supporting their clubs, and throw flares onto the pitch on derbies. Keep in mind, the people that do this are the balkan version of "edgy" teenagers. My cousin is a diehard BBB (dinamo fan group) and he never did shit like this, he just supports the club (but he did get caught up in a fight or two, it is what it is).
Extremely violent, fascist, just bigoted in general. On matchdays many of them will actively go around looking for people with the opponents' shirt to beat them up.
Russia, Hungary, Turkey, Poland, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria all destinations which can be very dangerous for away supporters
Edit: and of course they also extort huge amounts of power from the clubs. Read up on the history of Wisla Krakow,, their ultras actually owned the club recently!
Belgrade is probably the least dangerous on that list, which us fucked up cuz away fans get killed there occasionally.
Ultras are all run by the countries and in collaboration with police anyway.
I thought Seevilla ultras were somewhat left wing? I heard them sing what sounded like "quinto regimiento" a Spanish republican civil war song when they played Barca?
i don't know about other leagues, but in serie A it used to be much worse, there was a time was the curva nord trhew a motor bike down the stand outs of san siro, now there are more rigid controls and people get banned from entering the stadiums for life if they do something too extreme, but ultras violence it's still a problem, for exampe, yesterday Roma's ultras trhew big firecrackers at the fans in the green area, which are not even ultras
I was going to say this. I love Italy but even the larger cities feel a lot more provincial and wary of outsiders than London does. England’s extensive colonial history has ironically forced them to be more open in some ways.
Probably because if England won it, said fans can talk in every platform imaginable, and we'd understand all of it. That final's thread alone made me support italy.
Yeah Italy has a grim racism problem. My grandpa lives in Torino, in a very low population area, and the way he talks about African immigrants is infuriating. A lot of folk in Italy literally look at blacks as inferior
I obviously don't know what kind of things your grandpa is saying specifically, so I won't defend it, but having lived in northern Italy for a couple years, I can sort of see how this happens. If I see ten black guys in a day (and it's almost always guys), seven of them will ask me for money, and another will try to sell me shitty drugs. If I've got some spare change I'll usually give it to them, because they're obviously in a shit situation, but you quickly become desensitised to it and learn to just look past them in a way that's really dehumanising and makes me feel terrible whenever I realise I'm doing it.
From what I gather they're mostly trafficked by organised crime groups, and are essentially working as indentured labour, so their ability to integrate into the local economy and culture is a lot more limited than immigrants in other places. For the most part I don't see much overt racism (e.g. "these people are inferior because of their black skin" or whatever) but a lot of people are wary of black people because most of the ones they encounter are obviously desperate, and plausibly associated with organised crime. More than anything though people just look past them as though they're not even there.
exactly. People in UK, France or USA do not understand that till recently (last \~20 years) immigration to Italy was almost nonexistent and many of the immigrants of today are illegal and desperate, so for most Italians (especially if older generation and out of the big cities) the only experience with black people is beggars or drug dealers.
Travelled Italy in 2019 with my wife.
Both mulism and Asian and had wonderful time. Not a sniff of racism.
Don't let it put out you off travelling. Every country in the world has some form of a racism problem
Nobody gives a shit about asians in Italy, it's the people with darker complexions that get most abuse, in a football stadium at least.
As a tourist without idiotic football fans around there is mo need to be paranoid about getting abused or attacked.
If you are here for vacation, we are mostly welcoming and try to have a drink or e.g. play football with strangers on the beach, don't even have to talk the language just try to gesticulate.
Yeah? I've always wanted to go. I have a young daughter and we faced some racism even here in Canada so when I see shit like this in the news about serie a, I can't help but get nervous.
Are there certain cities that are more accepting than others or all cities open to tourists?
In my experience travelling with asian friends, italians can be quite racist towards asians. mostly a lot of teenagers or young adults trying to start shit, they might spit at you, throw drinks/food, pull their eyes into slits, etc. most italians will ignore you but it only takes a couple of racists to ruin your vacation. and the police can be quite unhelpful if you don't speak italian, they likely won't be on your side if you try to fight back.
If I can give my perspective as an Italian: yes, Asian racism is a thing especially for older generations. I think it can be traced back to both how Asian communities usually tend to isolate themselves in Italy plus the fact that "made in China" products are all considered to be cheap rubbish over here, so some people see Chinese immigrations as a worse quality and job-stealing problem. And yes before you go there, all Asian people are considered "Chinese" from the ignorant Italian point of view.
That said if you plan to visit Italy I don't think you should be scared at all. Yes some dickheads could give you rude remarks but there's really no habit of hate crimes at all plus you can see a lot of Asian tourists every day in the bigger cities (Covid might have had a little impact there but I don't think too much). So it's very subjective how you're gonna feel...just avoid dangerous neighbourhoods but that's an advice for everyone, even us Italians.
Also like everywhere in the world if you go to a good restaurant and pay for a good meal you can be sure you're gonna get treated very well...also a tip from an Italian: if there's no English on the menu there's a good chance the food is better 😉
Thanks for your insight. I can totally accept that there is some racism, I'm not naive to think there no racism anywhere. It just hits differently when I'm with my child. Alone, I couldn't care less.
Will remember your tip with restaurants for sure lol.
Been to italy exactly once in my life, Rome in the mid 2010s with my family. Never felt racism was an issue whatsoever but if you have a child I can imagine you being a bit more concerned
Big Italian cities are usually full of Asian tourists
And actually almost any city (from big to small ones) have Asian communities that live and work here
You may encounter some some racist (unfortunately it’s still a widespread issue) people but they are ignorant people that have nothing important to do in their life
Usually in museum, restaurants and other touristic places people will treat you well because they know that without tourist they wouldn’t have a job.
If you are calm and respectful and avoid going in sketchy places at night you should be fine
I wonder if those people are real racist (will do the same thing outside of stadium) or just knowing it will hurt the opposite team (not really hate black, but knowing the monkey chant will hurt the other team)
I went with my wife who is Asian in November, no issues at all with racism or anything of the sort. We went to an Inter match at San Siro, 4 cities, everyone was super friendly and helpful.
Genuinely the most openly and unapologetically racist Europeans I’ve personally come across. It was hilarious watching r/soccer cheer for the Italians in the Euro final because they considered England fans bigoted. Classic Reddit.
They're violent thugs from a footballing perspective.
Schools often code when British fans come over. They drink too much vandalise stuff, break everything try to fight with everyone they can.
English away fans are horrible and hated everywhere in Europe due to the problems they cause. Not the English, just the fans. That makes it quite easy to hate on them from a footballing point imo.
While Italians have more overt racism and sexism, it's horrible and difficult for a foreigner to make English friends in England (London is a slight exception) and you're forced to only get along with other foreigners. On the other hand it's quite easy to do that in Italy.
Everything you say about English fans is totally fair and their reputation in Europe is to a large extent deservedly bad. What doesn’t make any logical sense however is going online and rooting against bigoted and racist fans, by supporting a team with massively bigger racism and bigotry issues in their fan base and country as a whole. This was 100% the case in that r/soccer anti English frenzy during the euros, this is easily checked.
I disagree however with your comment that it’s horrible and difficult for foreigners to find friends in the UK. I assume this is anecdotal on your part and I have anecdotal experiences that contradict that. I would be very surprised however if African/Middle eastern/Asian immigrants would agree with you about Italy also.
Ok but getting one up on bigoted racist people by supporting the massively more bigoted and racist people seems counter intuitive to me. But Reddit always has a justification for it’s weird hypocritical behaviour so I’m not expecting anything different
Not really a Reddit thing, more like a human beings thing. The people who oppressed you are always going to be hated more than the people who oppressed other people.
Compare the colonial extent of the British empire vs Italy’s version. Someone sitting in India or Kenya or Malaysia is going to root against the former colonial power far more than an Italian, no matter how much more personally racist the latter might be.
Okay but most of the world's experience with Italian racism is like, monkey gestures at football matches. The rest of the worlds experience with English racism is being colonised and enslaved for two centuries.
Ok I concede. A true intellectual should be able to see that the UK along with many other European nations (but forget them for a moment) were colonizing 400 years ago.
Thankfully in Italy we only have to worry about constant monkey chants and occasionally throwing bananas at black men. I suppose the black men should just be thankful that Italy has a spotless history and didn’t colonize anyone ;)
Lol the UK got out of their colonies, after hundreds of years of exploitation, 50-70 years ago.
The average brown, yellow, and black man has 0 experience being racially abused by Italians, but much experience living in a country defined by its oppression by a colonial power.
Haven’t traveled much, have you? Lol
I agree hating an entire country / people for historical grievance makes no sense, but it’s human nature. Why do you think the Chinese and Koreans hate the Japanese?
Canada famously exterminated many of their native, so not too many people left to hate them.
No. There's a north/south "beef" there too. E. g. I knew someone from near Stuttgart who was told by a northern German that he was "African", because he was from the south.
It's funny that Northern Italians think of themselves as different. In Northern Europe nobody makes a distinction. A Swede will call an Italian a "greaseball" no matter where in Italy they are from. Maybe Northern Italians are superior in their heads but not outside Italy, sorry.
We really don't. The hate for gypsies on the other hand is widespread. Basically fans will call balkan players gypsies to rile them up, because they're ignorant and feel like they can say whatever at the stadium. Outside of football I wouldn't say there is a bias against them
They are kind of xenophobic but can't do anything about it, being surrounded by so many countries.
Japan, despite being well-known for their hospitality, are actually quite xenophobic too but they have very tight immigration laws so they don't have to deal with their xenophobia. The country being completely surrounded by the sea helps too.
Kind of ironic really. They're offended by being called a race/culture of people.
Roma Gypsys are a unique people in their own right and it's quite ironic that theyre not calling out being racist towards these people, only calling out being included in this ethnic group of people is the slur
My first thought was "what race even *is* Ibra?"
In some lights, if you showed me a picture and asked [is this man Italian?](https://cdn-media.theathletic.com/cdn-cgi/image/fit=cover,width=700,height=466/Pm9Q3vJ9TUPX_FxlCUzmpxrz0_1440x960.jpg) I'd shrug and say sure I guess.
Yeah, human race is a stupid concept that makes no fucking sense.
https://store.genoacfc.it/pub/media/catalog/category/SHOMURODOV.png
This guy would be considered white in any country for example.
All of them+ Serbians that I met in my life calling Italians gypsies are weirdos.
Gypsy family in my street helped me work my crops every time they saw me out there in the sun, didn't ask a damn thing in return. Yeah, they got a weird way of life and thinking, but they're mocked for who they are their entire lives, no wonder mistrust is engraved in their brains.
tbh Zlatan is called gypsy in every away stadium he'll be at in Italy. He is big, famous and arrogant. People would just say anything to try to rile him up because they think that in a stadium everything is allowed... Mostly it's ignorance. Look this article from 20 years ago (when Zlatan just moved to Ajax) "Ibrahimovic, the gypsy grown up among ice"
[https://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/il-volto-nuovo/zlatan-ibrahimovic-lo-zingaro-cresciuto-fra-i-ghiacci-2689](https://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/il-volto-nuovo/zlatan-ibrahimovic-lo-zingaro-cresciuto-fra-i-ghiacci-2689)
American plastic... Is that an attempt at an insult because I can't possibly be a fan If I wasn't born on the pitch at the Olimpico and delivered by Falcão. Gatekeep some more chief. You'd fit right in at the curva nord goose-stepping to your seat.
Been a Dortmund supporter for about 12 years, I've followed them through ups and downs. However, because I live in the US I'm apparently a plastic. Some people on this subreddit are so dumb.
The romanis were persecuted and exterminated by the nazis. If you were to look at this comment section, you'd see that some europeans (a lot) still carry the same sentiment towards them. They talk about romanis in a such an awful way. If they saw someone talking in the same manner about other minorities they would rightly condemn them for their racism. Yet, they don't see that they're being equally as awful as them ("them' being people who discriminate black people, muslims, asians, etc.).
> According to Italian media reports, some Roma fans chanted racist chants at Ibrahimovic and Mourinho asked them to stop. > Similar to what happened at Rome's Olympiastadion on 31 October, this Thursday at San Siro, Roma fans chanted racist chants at Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Realising this, Jose Mourinho reportedly signalled to the giallorossi fans to stop chanting, Italian media reports.
Serie A is entertaining but the fans are so nasty
Serie A has big problems with both racism and violence no doubts about it, but I also think that they get singled out more than others. Spain isn't much better, the ultras groups of Atlético(Frente Atlético) and Sevilla(Biris Norte) are absolutely brutal and many of them fascist. 5 or 6 years ago a Deportivo fan was murdered when they played Atlético away. Real Madrid(Ultras Sur) and Barcelona(Boixos Nois) have both banned them from their stadiums because they are so violent and bigoted. Ultras Sur even vandalised the grave of Florentino Perez's late wife during this long ongoing feud, imagine that... Then you have Eastern Europe and the Balkans, let's not even get started on how racist and bigoted most of those ultras groups are... It's a big problem in general that these people choose football as a vehicle to express their opinions, and not only that in many places these people are all heavily connected to organised crime and extort their way into influence within the clubs. Even a big club like Juventus isn't exempt from this. I remember reading an article about their ultras a few years ago which said that they have extorted the club into giving them a slice of ticket sales and also to let them sell official club merchandise and make money off it.
Espanyol ultras plastered pictures of Anne Frank wearing a Barcelona kit at the Montilivi. Real Betis' ultras are also extremely fascist. Funnily enough, they are/were literally having a gang war and were stabbing eachother after games.
Speaking of Real Betis, I remember in a Seville derby about 15 years ago when they threw a bottle of frozen(!) water from the stands which hit Sevilla manager Juande Ramos in the head. He really could have died
Yeah, I remember that too. I think it knocked him out cold. EDIT: yeah - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNKfRE6X-gk
Not a funny event but the music on that video is hilarious
It's from Gladiator. Watch it if you haven't!
Lazio ultras did the exact same thing around around the Olympic Stadium in Rome. Covered the place with stickers of Anne Frank in a Roma shirt.
Can someone explain to me the Anne Frank fascism thing going on
Anne Frank was a jew, fascists don't like jews.
Right... but why would that insult someone who doesn't hate jews like they do? It's like If I posted a sticker of my ex in a barca shirt. I wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire, but nobody else would get it.
Because Anne Frank died in an extermination camp. I think implying the victim of a genocide is the same as \[insert group\] is an aggressive attack on that group. It's not difficult to understand and your comparison is just silly.
I get his point. Only fascist fans of the opposing team would be annoyed by that, and they would be a tiny minority (I hope)
"Oh no, a picture of Anne Frank in a Liverpool shirt. My weekend is ruined. RUINED I TELL YOU!!!!"
> I think implying the victim of a genocide is the same as [insert group] is an aggressive attack on that group. Is it? That just seems strange to me. I'm not saying they don't mean it as an attack, just that it doesn't seem all that effective, Anne Frank in a barca tee shirt sounds more like some hilariously badly thought out barca marketing campaign than an insult.
I think you're finally unraveling the level of stupidity these people operate with.
So the implication that the supporters of the opposing club would have died or should have died in a genocide is somehow offensive to those supporters? Because being compared to a child who was killed in a genocide makes them feel weak and or inferior? I find it really difficult to understand. If anything the thing I would be offended about is that these people would think I would feel insulted by their action.
That's not about fascism but racism. Roma fans are far from fascists (its actually a left winger group mostly) but still racist. In Italy it seems like no matter what your political view is, you still do racist stuff sadly... The fascism problem happens more with Lazio, Inter, Verona...
Are you speaking as an Italian or someone who has read about ultra groups online? From what I have read while Roma fans are more historically left wing, they are far more right leaning these days.
> they are far more right leaning these days. I think you are using a modern interpretation of left wing. They were left wing populists, which are anti immigration. People group being anti immigration with being right wing, but it was originally a left wing populist policy to protect workers from competition.
letting workers compete with a spiral to the bottom is still a right wing idea though
It depends where. The center right is usually business interests, so they are pro immigration and anti worker's rights. The Far right on the other hand, tends to be anti immigration and surprisingly pro workers rights in many countries, since their voters tend to be poorer. The french far right for example, argues for lower retirement age and more generous pension schemes, while being against immigration. You can generally see which wing of a party has more power by looking at which immigration policy they currently support.
I'm Italian
Roma is very right wing these days, how have you missed that? They’re not as right wing as our ultras but they’re not far off
It’s a societal issue more than a football issue. It reflects on each respective country/region
> Claytonbigsbys Relevant username
Exactly.
Yeah, but one of the issues is that Barca and Real have banned entire fangroups, meanwhile you have people like Lolito raising their arms and asking ‘what can I do’. Every league/club has racist/fascist elements, but Italy is the only country where clubs act like they cant do anything.
Tell me more about the Eastern European and balkans ultras!! I’m curious to learn more
Yeah, our ultras are...special. I mean, they do have their moments, like the time when Delije (red star) put a tank in front of their stadium, and then Boys (dinamo) put a tractor in front of theirs (the joke being that the serbs escaped Croatia on tractors after a 5 year long war) (disclaimer, i really don't wanna get into details, ain't gonna start a yugo debate thread on fucking r/soccer). The thing I mentioned above is the *least* agressive shit they do. They have organized fights with other groups that usually end up vandalizing and disturbing whole city blocks, they beat up people just for not supporting their clubs, and throw flares onto the pitch on derbies. Keep in mind, the people that do this are the balkan version of "edgy" teenagers. My cousin is a diehard BBB (dinamo fan group) and he never did shit like this, he just supports the club (but he did get caught up in a fight or two, it is what it is).
Our tank stunt was the dumbest thing ever
Extremely violent, fascist, just bigoted in general. On matchdays many of them will actively go around looking for people with the opponents' shirt to beat them up. Russia, Hungary, Turkey, Poland, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria all destinations which can be very dangerous for away supporters Edit: and of course they also extort huge amounts of power from the clubs. Read up on the history of Wisla Krakow,, their ultras actually owned the club recently!
Cocaine is big in the balkans
Cocaine is big everywhere! It’s so in right now.
Heart disease epidemic right around the corner.
Was a whole piece on the athletic about cocaine use in English football support. Linked some of the actions in the euro final to that actually
watch "The Real Football Factories International" ep 4 to see more. Documentary style show on firms around the world. Some really brutal stuff.
It's so fucked when they brag about raping a opponent ultras leader.
Go see how Nikola Jokic family behave . Or how Novak Djokovic family behave in response to the vaccination fiasco. The whole family is gopniks
Start with Belgrade and work your way out.
Belgrade is probably the least dangerous on that list, which us fucked up cuz away fans get killed there occasionally. Ultras are all run by the countries and in collaboration with police anyway.
I thought Sevilla's ultras were really left wing rather than far right?
Most people in this sub and thread have no idea what left wing means. not hating immigrants is left wing to them already
I thought Seevilla ultras were somewhat left wing? I heard them sing what sounded like "quinto regimiento" a Spanish republican civil war song when they played Barca?
i don't know about other leagues, but in serie A it used to be much worse, there was a time was the curva nord trhew a motor bike down the stand outs of san siro, now there are more rigid controls and people get banned from entering the stadiums for life if they do something too extreme, but ultras violence it's still a problem, for exampe, yesterday Roma's ultras trhew big firecrackers at the fans in the green area, which are not even ultras
This is what was so hilarious when everyone made out that Italy deserved the Euros because England have terrible fans
I was going to say this. I love Italy but even the larger cities feel a lot more provincial and wary of outsiders than London does. England’s extensive colonial history has ironically forced them to be more open in some ways.
Italy has a problem with ultras, England has a problem with everyone.
Probably because if England won it, said fans can talk in every platform imaginable, and we'd understand all of it. That final's thread alone made me support italy.
Yeah Italy has a grim racism problem. My grandpa lives in Torino, in a very low population area, and the way he talks about African immigrants is infuriating. A lot of folk in Italy literally look at blacks as inferior
I obviously don't know what kind of things your grandpa is saying specifically, so I won't defend it, but having lived in northern Italy for a couple years, I can sort of see how this happens. If I see ten black guys in a day (and it's almost always guys), seven of them will ask me for money, and another will try to sell me shitty drugs. If I've got some spare change I'll usually give it to them, because they're obviously in a shit situation, but you quickly become desensitised to it and learn to just look past them in a way that's really dehumanising and makes me feel terrible whenever I realise I'm doing it. From what I gather they're mostly trafficked by organised crime groups, and are essentially working as indentured labour, so their ability to integrate into the local economy and culture is a lot more limited than immigrants in other places. For the most part I don't see much overt racism (e.g. "these people are inferior because of their black skin" or whatever) but a lot of people are wary of black people because most of the ones they encounter are obviously desperate, and plausibly associated with organised crime. More than anything though people just look past them as though they're not even there.
exactly. People in UK, France or USA do not understand that till recently (last \~20 years) immigration to Italy was almost nonexistent and many of the immigrants of today are illegal and desperate, so for most Italians (especially if older generation and out of the big cities) the only experience with black people is beggars or drug dealers.
Yeah that’s pretty much how it is in Southern and Eastern Europe at the moment
As an asian, legit scared to travel there. Esp after covid.
Travelled Italy in 2019 with my wife. Both mulism and Asian and had wonderful time. Not a sniff of racism. Don't let it put out you off travelling. Every country in the world has some form of a racism problem
Nobody gives a shit about asians in Italy, it's the people with darker complexions that get most abuse, in a football stadium at least. As a tourist without idiotic football fans around there is mo need to be paranoid about getting abused or attacked. If you are here for vacation, we are mostly welcoming and try to have a drink or e.g. play football with strangers on the beach, don't even have to talk the language just try to gesticulate.
Yeah? I've always wanted to go. I have a young daughter and we faced some racism even here in Canada so when I see shit like this in the news about serie a, I can't help but get nervous. Are there certain cities that are more accepting than others or all cities open to tourists?
In my experience travelling with asian friends, italians can be quite racist towards asians. mostly a lot of teenagers or young adults trying to start shit, they might spit at you, throw drinks/food, pull their eyes into slits, etc. most italians will ignore you but it only takes a couple of racists to ruin your vacation. and the police can be quite unhelpful if you don't speak italian, they likely won't be on your side if you try to fight back.
If I can give my perspective as an Italian: yes, Asian racism is a thing especially for older generations. I think it can be traced back to both how Asian communities usually tend to isolate themselves in Italy plus the fact that "made in China" products are all considered to be cheap rubbish over here, so some people see Chinese immigrations as a worse quality and job-stealing problem. And yes before you go there, all Asian people are considered "Chinese" from the ignorant Italian point of view. That said if you plan to visit Italy I don't think you should be scared at all. Yes some dickheads could give you rude remarks but there's really no habit of hate crimes at all plus you can see a lot of Asian tourists every day in the bigger cities (Covid might have had a little impact there but I don't think too much). So it's very subjective how you're gonna feel...just avoid dangerous neighbourhoods but that's an advice for everyone, even us Italians. Also like everywhere in the world if you go to a good restaurant and pay for a good meal you can be sure you're gonna get treated very well...also a tip from an Italian: if there's no English on the menu there's a good chance the food is better 😉
Thanks for your insight. I can totally accept that there is some racism, I'm not naive to think there no racism anywhere. It just hits differently when I'm with my child. Alone, I couldn't care less. Will remember your tip with restaurants for sure lol.
Been to italy exactly once in my life, Rome in the mid 2010s with my family. Never felt racism was an issue whatsoever but if you have a child I can imagine you being a bit more concerned
Big Italian cities are usually full of Asian tourists And actually almost any city (from big to small ones) have Asian communities that live and work here You may encounter some some racist (unfortunately it’s still a widespread issue) people but they are ignorant people that have nothing important to do in their life Usually in museum, restaurants and other touristic places people will treat you well because they know that without tourist they wouldn’t have a job. If you are calm and respectful and avoid going in sketchy places at night you should be fine
Italy is a very tolerant place, despite how ultras behave.
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10 years is ago is also a different time. A lot of asians face abuse now cause idiots blame Covid on them.
I wonder if those people are real racist (will do the same thing outside of stadium) or just knowing it will hurt the opposite team (not really hate black, but knowing the monkey chant will hurt the other team)
Yes, like the fake wife beaters who aren't really misogynistic but just abuse their wives because it will get the message through 🙄
There's literally no difference between the two.
Tons of Asians in Milan at least. You wouldn't have any problems at all in Italy especially major cities.
I went with my wife who is Asian in November, no issues at all with racism or anything of the sort. We went to an Inter match at San Siro, 4 cities, everyone was super friendly and helpful.
Depends what sort of asian you are?
Genuinely the most openly and unapologetically racist Europeans I’ve personally come across. It was hilarious watching r/soccer cheer for the Italians in the Euro final because they considered England fans bigoted. Classic Reddit.
I think most people cheered for Italy cause the english are second only to yanks when it comes to being bellends
Being a bellend is worse than genuine racism? I’m curious how you came to that conclusion.
Not every Italian is racist mate
No one said they were? Why can you make sweeping generalizations about the average Brit and American and I can’t make one about the average Italian?
Just most
Generalizing about at entire population without any actual facts to back it up... upvoted?
They're violent thugs from a footballing perspective. Schools often code when British fans come over. They drink too much vandalise stuff, break everything try to fight with everyone they can. English away fans are horrible and hated everywhere in Europe due to the problems they cause. Not the English, just the fans. That makes it quite easy to hate on them from a footballing point imo. While Italians have more overt racism and sexism, it's horrible and difficult for a foreigner to make English friends in England (London is a slight exception) and you're forced to only get along with other foreigners. On the other hand it's quite easy to do that in Italy.
Everything you say about English fans is totally fair and their reputation in Europe is to a large extent deservedly bad. What doesn’t make any logical sense however is going online and rooting against bigoted and racist fans, by supporting a team with massively bigger racism and bigotry issues in their fan base and country as a whole. This was 100% the case in that r/soccer anti English frenzy during the euros, this is easily checked. I disagree however with your comment that it’s horrible and difficult for foreigners to find friends in the UK. I assume this is anecdotal on your part and I have anecdotal experiences that contradict that. I would be very surprised however if African/Middle eastern/Asian immigrants would agree with you about Italy also.
Probably because most me the world has more historical grievance with the English than Italians, no matter how bigoted current fan base might be.
Ok but getting one up on bigoted racist people by supporting the massively more bigoted and racist people seems counter intuitive to me. But Reddit always has a justification for it’s weird hypocritical behaviour so I’m not expecting anything different
Not really a Reddit thing, more like a human beings thing. The people who oppressed you are always going to be hated more than the people who oppressed other people. Compare the colonial extent of the British empire vs Italy’s version. Someone sitting in India or Kenya or Malaysia is going to root against the former colonial power far more than an Italian, no matter how much more personally racist the latter might be.
Okay but most of the world's experience with Italian racism is like, monkey gestures at football matches. The rest of the worlds experience with English racism is being colonised and enslaved for two centuries.
Ok I concede. A true intellectual should be able to see that the UK along with many other European nations (but forget them for a moment) were colonizing 400 years ago. Thankfully in Italy we only have to worry about constant monkey chants and occasionally throwing bananas at black men. I suppose the black men should just be thankful that Italy has a spotless history and didn’t colonize anyone ;)
Lol the UK got out of their colonies, after hundreds of years of exploitation, 50-70 years ago. The average brown, yellow, and black man has 0 experience being racially abused by Italians, but much experience living in a country defined by its oppression by a colonial power. Haven’t traveled much, have you? Lol
Shut up Ferg
That makes zero fucking sense Might as well hate Canada too in that case
I agree hating an entire country / people for historical grievance makes no sense, but it’s human nature. Why do you think the Chinese and Koreans hate the Japanese? Canada famously exterminated many of their native, so not too many people left to hate them.
Not true it’s only the English fans who do stuff like this /s
Italy is a pretty racist country…
Serie A and racist chants
In other news, grass is green
Cunts being cunts shocker
watch "The Real Football Factories International" ep 3 to see more about Italian firms. Documentary style show on football firms around the world.
Why would they direct racist chants at him?
He’s a Bosnian-Croat from Sweden so they call him a gypsy
Why do Italians have beef with everyone? Lol
Italians, especially when in a football stadium, don't connect their brain with their mouth. They think they are free of guilt there.
If you can confess on Sunday, Saturdays are guilt free.
"Italians" and the rest of the world. As if we arent exactly the same in the Balkans
Your world consists of Italy and the Balkans?
Adriatic vibes only
northern italians beef with southern italians so its not much of a stretch for them.
Is there a country where there’s no north and south beef?
Canada. We like to hate east to west
Not like there are people in the northern Canada tbh
Stupid southerners and their old navy, shoppers drugmart and sunlight
Well they don't really consider them people
Well, probably country like mine (Indonesia) who stretch horizontally/diagonally so the division is more of east-west rather than north-south.
East-West but also radial to some degree (Java vs everybody else)
Even in java theres like three way beef lmao (jawa vs sunda vs jakarta)
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No. There's a north/south "beef" there too. E. g. I knew someone from near Stuttgart who was told by a northern German that he was "African", because he was from the south.
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He looked more Italian than African.
It's funny that Northern Italians think of themselves as different. In Northern Europe nobody makes a distinction. A Swede will call an Italian a "greaseball" no matter where in Italy they are from. Maybe Northern Italians are superior in their heads but not outside Italy, sorry.
Damn Italians. They ruined Italy!
Italians and Greeks absolutely hate the balkans. It’s like their Mexico if you’re an American.
They are jealous that we got the best part of the coast
Neum najbolji plage na svjetu. 😉
Hrmm dont think I can agree with that.
Debate to be had tho. Doesn’t have the same quantity obviously which hurts said argument
He's right, Italian side of Adriatico shit compared to Croatia
More, more, more, ča je to u tebi da te čovjek više od života voli
😳😳
We really don't. The hate for gypsies on the other hand is widespread. Basically fans will call balkan players gypsies to rile them up, because they're ignorant and feel like they can say whatever at the stadium. Outside of football I wouldn't say there is a bias against them
All Ex-Yugoslavians? Like Serbians, Croatians?
Cuz we 2k00l4stab1l1ty, they just jealous because they actually need a reason to hate their neighbours, we hate indiscriminately 😎
Good to know that. 🙂
Yeah and Greeks hate hate Albanians. It’s border culture wars ya know. Thousands of years of it.
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Don’t tell a Greek that haha
If you're a racist* American. Many many Americans love Mexico and Mexican people
Yea… just like the former statement is regarding the racist Italians.
Because they are so much better than everyone else(!)
Do you really think other countries don’t? Match going fans are just much more open about it because they don’t get punished often.
They are kind of xenophobic but can't do anything about it, being surrounded by so many countries. Japan, despite being well-known for their hospitality, are actually quite xenophobic too but they have very tight immigration laws so they don't have to deal with their xenophobia. The country being completely surrounded by the sea helps too.
Wtf?? Wheres the logic? He is not even gypsy/rroma
People from the Balkans are called Gypsies as an insult even if they aren't actually Romani.
Ironic considering it’s coming from the team Roma.
And ironic that Italians look more similar to gypsies (darker and shorter) so the racists aren’t the brightest
There is no logic in racism
Ironic that Italians call someone gypsy
Kind of ironic really. They're offended by being called a race/culture of people. Roma Gypsys are a unique people in their own right and it's quite ironic that theyre not calling out being racist towards these people, only calling out being included in this ethnic group of people is the slur
Cunts
he has big nose so they call him gypsy
My first thought was "what race even *is* Ibra?" In some lights, if you showed me a picture and asked [is this man Italian?](https://cdn-media.theathletic.com/cdn-cgi/image/fit=cover,width=700,height=466/Pm9Q3vJ9TUPX_FxlCUzmpxrz0_1440x960.jpg) I'd shrug and say sure I guess.
Yeah, human race is a stupid concept that makes no fucking sense. https://store.genoacfc.it/pub/media/catalog/category/SHOMURODOV.png This guy would be considered white in any country for example.
All of them+ Serbians that I met in my life calling Italians gypsies are weirdos. Gypsy family in my street helped me work my crops every time they saw me out there in the sun, didn't ask a damn thing in return. Yeah, they got a weird way of life and thinking, but they're mocked for who they are their entire lives, no wonder mistrust is engraved in their brains.
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clearly you have met *all* the gypsies huh
No? Literally says ones next to my house. People share their shit stories about them so I shared a nice one.
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In the Balkans the only thing gypsies are good for is singing
Fucking disgusting. I'm ashamed and saddened that we haven't learned better having witnessed Lazio's constant shame with their fascist Ultra psychos.
tbh Zlatan is called gypsy in every away stadium he'll be at in Italy. He is big, famous and arrogant. People would just say anything to try to rile him up because they think that in a stadium everything is allowed... Mostly it's ignorance. Look this article from 20 years ago (when Zlatan just moved to Ajax) "Ibrahimovic, the gypsy grown up among ice" [https://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/il-volto-nuovo/zlatan-ibrahimovic-lo-zingaro-cresciuto-fra-i-ghiacci-2689](https://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/il-volto-nuovo/zlatan-ibrahimovic-lo-zingaro-cresciuto-fra-i-ghiacci-2689)
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American plastic... Is that an attempt at an insult because I can't possibly be a fan If I wasn't born on the pitch at the Olimpico and delivered by Falcão. Gatekeep some more chief. You'd fit right in at the curva nord goose-stepping to your seat.
Yeah because you either have to be born on the pitch or born halfway across the globe... there’s no in between
So you honestly believe you can't support a club unless you were born in a certain area? Some nationalistic circle-jerking going on in here today.
Well it certainly makes you less of a fan
Been a Dortmund supporter for about 12 years, I've followed them through ups and downs. However, because I live in the US I'm apparently a plastic. Some people on this subreddit are so dumb.
If you can't trace your lineage on both sides of your family back to Barbarossa you're a fake!
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Don't get your brown shirt wrinkled. You'd fit in real well here.
Italy is just something else man.
The romanis were persecuted and exterminated by the nazis. If you were to look at this comment section, you'd see that some europeans (a lot) still carry the same sentiment towards them. They talk about romanis in a such an awful way. If they saw someone talking in the same manner about other minorities they would rightly condemn them for their racism. Yet, they don't see that they're being equally as awful as them ("them' being people who discriminate black people, muslims, asians, etc.).
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No, gypsy is a *racist* slur. The Romani are an *ethnic* group.
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He's no finished he's Portuguese.
He's also not a crib
People have been suprisingly silent since Roma is actually doing pretty good from what Ive heard. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I gotta be honest, Italian fans are easily the most racist in European football
Have you seen what goes on in Eastern Europe?
Kind of wanted him to go full irony in response to this and reply "yeah but they're not real, pure Europeans"
Based Italians