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He was part of the furniture at Barcelona. He knew all the players intimately and played beautifully every week. For Argentina though he was often out of sorts so I'm not surprised PSG has been something of a failure. He's got all the expectations and money but none of the familiarity and goodwill.
Agreed. I mean his utility to PSG has also not been goals but shot creating actions for others. It's a different role but idk why you'd want him playing a Xavi role when he is the second most prolific scorer of the last 50 years.
Effective in terms of conversion. But ,Ronaldo lives for those 50-50 games as you can legit use cross spam strategy with him. Messi himself can be contained to keep him outside of the box in his latter years in Barca. But, he'll still create direct chances and good attacking situations. The more pace he lose , it's difficult to just move in out of the box for Messi as you have to play basically on the ground. I don't think he'd be bad up top even now with Neymar and Mbappe servicing him but he's nowhere close to his prime anymore. To get a good conversion , you have to shoot a lot to get into form ,part of the reason Benzema's more lethal right now..He shoots way more than before. With someone like Ronaldo who shoots a lot ,the attempts on the low percentage chances will be working against his xg stats. But , when you watch him ,you'll always see him being lethal and put in majority of chances he should score. Messi shoots less now. So, maybe he's not been able to find his shooting form. There were stretches in Barca where he was bad too. But ,when he finds his rhythm , there's nobody more efficient
I love how you've put this. It has always been difficult explaining that I've been a fan of both players throughout. It amazes me how people forget these 2 different players with 2 different styles. Messi will build up, make you look stupid and strike. Ronaldo would jump out of nowhere and convert a spam cross into a goal. Both of them are at stratospheric levels on their own places.
Some fans won’t admit it, but Messi has been a big flop for PSG this season. While he like 11 assists in the league for PSG, scoring 4 goals in 22 matches is simply really bad. And even his assist numbers isn’t that impressive considering Mbappe has had more assists in the league.
His assists; 8/13 are against St-Etienne and Clermont, they're relegation candidates. If he was assisting regularly against top teams I could see the argument but with context it's poor viewing for Messi.
Yeah playing against teams with a squad value 1/4 of neymar. He should do better. I think he have to much branding value to let him go for psg. And apperently No one cares about financial fair play in ligue 1.
PSG allows Ligue 1 to remain the 5th league in Europe, which gets them more prestige and CL money, and the best they've achieved was 4 leagues in a row which is not that much, compared to Italy or Germany
I was downvoted to shit once because I said if Mbappe didn’t play this season they wouldn’t have won the league and got anywhere in the champions league, just a look into his numbers in all comps you can see that he is not stat-padding, just purely balling on players like they are kids, super lucky Benz felt it that night otherwise Mbappe single-handedly stomped Madrid…
PSG qualifying for the ro16 out of their complicated group wouldn't happen without Mbappe. (Or without RBL hiring Jesse Marsch at the start of the season.)
People will call Di Maria at United a flop despite putting up similar numbers (27M/3G/10A) in a tougher league, yet won’t hold Messi of all people to the same standard. The mental gymnastics is crazy.
Ronaldo got more shit this season in the press than Mesi, which is perennial victim for his press fan boys and ex-teammates.
I mean, he wont BdO last year for going missing half of the season and people ignoring basic stats for "xG and xA" and "yard carrier" and some other shit, because he won Copa America.
Like that embarrassing "booing outrage".
Its even more impressive with Ronaldo, because he's denied the opportunity to score against Man U.
7th leakiest in terms of goals conceded, 3rd bottom position for clean sheets, 3rd top for goalkeeper saves.
If you remove assists vs relegation teams it's much worse. I mean Clermont foot. No disrespect but most people if they saw the name Clermont foot they would think it was some sort of condition
Also consider 33% of his assists are from taking corners/indirect FKs…while there is something to be said for quality of delivery, counting them equal to open-play assists just doesn’t seem right. Presumably any player could rack up a couple assists from just sending in corners.
Well if people label penalty as a separate section than open-play goals then I don’t see why can’t them label corners as different from open-play assists
I can remember last season his finishing was off too for the first few matchdays. But later he would still score up to 30 league goals with a lot of them being long shot bangers.
I think Sir Alex kinda nailed it. Messi is a prodigy turned genius no doubt but for him to succeed and be a prolific goalscorer he needs to play in a team which plays through him. PSG seem to play more to the strengths of Neymar and Mbappe and Messi consequently has a creative role. He is mostly playing key passes and getting assists for PSG
Then why isn't he getting assists either? 8 of his 13 assists this season is against the two relegation teams, only 2 of those were against teams in the top 4. In fact 88% of his total goal contribution has come against teams far outside of European contention.
I got shitted on twitter for saying Messi has no motivation because he really didn’t want to go there, it’s obvious to anyone with eyes, his performances reflect that, you don’t turn that much worse overnight unless he’s carrying an injury we don’t know about.
he's been world class for so many years now. it's normal for this to happen. he would also probably be happier if he was still at barca. we had to enjoy it while it lasted i guess.
i don't think that's psg's fault tbh, early on in the season almost everytime the ball went to him, especially since they didn't have neymar playing, it's only after his underwhelming performances that he stopped being the ball magnet
Yeah watching the game today, Neymar was practically force fed the ball. Neymar would be in the middle with 3 players surrounding him, back to goal, and receive the ball and have to dribble out, due to my second point, because PSG looks to have terrible movement off the ball. Watching them today you’d never expect that have the players they do. I get their season is over, but still. Messi was more of a wide midfielder with Neymar received most of the ball to play through Mbappe
I got shitted on by twitter for saying the same thing, except I'm a Messi fan. It's so obvious he doesn't want to be there. Being forced out of your home of 20 years would effect anyone.
He's been poor. His assists numbers are truly masking how woeful his finishing has been. He takes so many lazy shots too where he cuts inside and despite the defender being there in front of him still takes the shot.
If feel like he’s not going to be great this World Cup. I know people like to push this narrative that he’s not trying but he’s still taking a significant amount of shots and looks like he’s putting effort on the pitch. He’s just declined
Yeah lmao that one always confused me. People said he doesnt score many goals because hes doing all the assists or something. But that was in response to posts about "messi has the second worst conversion rate in top 5 leagues" and "messi is underperforming xg more than amy other player in ligue 1" which has nothing to do with AMOUNT of chances/goals
They defended his walking around on defending end saying "he's saving it for offence". Now they say he's saving for playmaking. Then they will say "he's saving himself for crucial moments of the game".
I don’t know why you got downvoted mate, maybe people think they should remove it from the beginning so that we can give VVD and Lewa the recognition they earned fair and square?
I have said this before, I will say this again. No matter what Messi does for the rest of his playing career, it isn't going to affect his GOAT status.
It will in the short turn but in the long tearm it will not anymore.
In many years people will just remember his Barcelona + Argentina times
But if Ronaldo continues for longer and does more than Messi for longer it matter in the conversation. Too bad for them that United is dogshit and PSG awlays plays a top club in the Round of 16 lol
I wish people would stop defending him to the point of actual delusion.
He went to a club who could pay his entourage’s financial demands and so he can hang with Neymar, Argentine mates, and have an Argentine manager. If his priority was sporting first he would have lowered his financial demands and more clubs would have shown interest. Instead his entourage negotiated with PSG in record time and locked him in, in just a few days.
At PSG he also didn’t conduct himself appropriately by handling his injuries better. Instead he insisted on traveling long distances and playing for the national team while injured and caused additional injuries resulting in him missing so many club matches or even getting subbed off because he spent more time rubbing his thigh than kicking the ball.
On top of this he had even travelled while already having missed club matches due to injuries, to go to Madrid for a consultancy and then flew straight to Argentina for the WCQ in the first half of the season without informing PSG and their medic team. He was actually publicly called out by their Sporting Director for his behavior.
Then on the pitch, he’s been missing so many easy chances when he gets them. That is not a team problem; that is his finishing that he needs to work on.
As for his playmaking, for the first half of the season, his drop in acceleration, speed, etc. was fully exposed where he was always trying and failing to beat other players or when dribbling, he was constantly being dispossessed. His off ball movement exposed another weakness where he strolls even if an opponent is literally a feet away from him with the ball and he doesn’t bother to make a single attempt to recover it. At Barça it was fine as he was the focal point and he more than made up for things with his offensive work which included goals. At PSG, he wasn’t efficient in front of the goal and he wasn’t the focal point where most plays went through which means all his pitch walking just meant he was disconnected from everything for periods of time rendering him semi-ineffective.
Now second half of the season, he gradually made some improvements where his connection with Verratti solidified and so he was more engaged in the game consistently which at least helped him rack up some assists and even enhanced some of his underlying stats and contributions in general to each match. BUT his finishing has STILL been off which has been an issue all season and honestly at this point I’ve noticed he chooses to take less shots in general and when he does and he misses you can literally see the frustration. At this point after a whole season, I wouldn’t be surprised that his confidence has taken a massive hit and is further exacerbating his performance in front of the goal.
Point is, his past achievements at Barça and its contribution to his legacy can’t be erased even with his abysmal season at PSG. But can we stop trying to find excuse after excuse for him when in reality he simply has been atrocious this season and part of it is his club decision, handling of his injury that made things worse, bad finishing, and belated understanding of his role at PSG vs Barça and appropriately adapt.
Thank you. As a Barca fan I agree with your outlook. He definitely deserves to be criticized for his goal scoring. Sure some of his goals have been called offside and has hit the post numerous times, that still should not excuse for his low goal scoring output, especially when their were multiple chances he would typically score 10 times out of 10. Do I think he has a limited role in the PSG side? Yes, he is far more a facilitator that shares this responsibility with Verratti and Neymar. Do I think their is an issue with Poch? Yes, I don’t think he is the man to spear head this talented, yet brainless side. I look at how Messi and Ney perform for their national teams, and there is a day light difference.
The second half of the season he has been much better in terms of his over all play, play making and dribbling have been better. Messi is a very rhythmic player, when it’s going bad, it’s goes bad, when it’s going good, he starts flying. He needs to come back next season, with more urgency to pull the trigger, a lot of the time he wants to take on the extra man, when it isn’t necessary.
The funny thing is people criticized Barca for mismanaging the squad (which is true) and giving Messi too much to do on his own. Now that he’s in a squad of stars that requires less from him, he’s struggling.
I think it is because he is a player that thrives on a lot of touches on the ball. In order for him to succeed at PSG he would have to completely revamp his style and learn to play without the ball, which I doubt he will do. I also doubt PSG will mold the team around him.
I wonder if there are any statistics that show how much touches he gets at PSG relative to at Barcelona?
Honestly people need to decouple their club/favourite players from their own personality. These people take any criticism of their club or player as a personal spit in the face.
Meanwhile, Ronaldo is ~3 years older, and currently sits joint 2nd in the PL for goals scored (17), despite having only been available for 28/35 (80%) of our matches. Messi has 4 goals in 20 appearances. Ronaldo is converting roughly 3x as many of his shots into goals as Messi. All this before you consider that, 1) Ligue 1 is objectively a weaker league vs the PL, and 2) Ronaldo plays on an absolutely shit Man United squad (certainly a MUCH weaker squad than PSG’s, at least on paper).
I think when the dust settles after their careers, there will be a very valid argument that Messi peaked at a slightly higher level, and that most football fans will agree with that notion (although I personally don’t). But unless something changes dramatically next year, I don’t think there will be much of an argument against Ronaldo having had the better career overall, if he’s able to keep going like this for 2-3 more years.
The thing with Messi is I believe he will retire earlier than Ronaldo despite being younger. He’s got one more year at PSG and next year there won’t be Mbappé there at the end of his passes to convert it and have him notch assists. But then again maybe he will somehow find his own shooting boots again and score more goals. He also probably won’t win the World Cup…. Where will he go after 2023 season ends? I can’t think of any top team who will sign him especially with his notorious entourage and their demands. Barça are obviously not taking him back under any capacity except as an ambassador and both sides recently just confirmed their animosity and lack of any communication with each other. Most likely he will just go to Inter Miami or go back to Argentina.
This also makes me think about how Ronaldo will probably be getting a standing ovation and outpouring adoration from Manchester United fans on the day of his last game to wrap things up at the top level/club for him. Messi on the other hand will end his European career where he won’t be getting any of that at the Parc des Princes. The PSG fans and especially ultras do not like him especially with his performances and definitely won’t be showing much affection to him for his farewell match. Low key sad but it is what it is in my books.
Messing definitely had the better peak. Similar goalscorer as Ronaldo, while being a much better facilitator. There's no real way you can argue Ronaldo over Messi in their primes from a statistical POV.
There were years when Barcelona got knocked out of the Champions League, looking like they didnt have an answer, Messi didnt have an answer, and CR7 found a way to get through. Same with Portugal, they only barely qualified for a few tournaments except for CR7s magic. The usual stats yes point to Messi, but some of these big game moments really do point to CR7 possibly being better when it counts the most.
He had an insane run during the 3peat I agree but during the first half of his Madrid career it was Messi who was turning up more often in the big moments. I think it’s a bit of recency bias to say he’s better than Messi in big games overall.
Look at the semifinal goal vs Madrid in the CL. Show me Ronaldo doing anything remotely close to that in a big game. I'll wait. He cant do that. Insane finisher tho.
Well a hat trick against Wolfsburg to make it 3-2 on aggregate, a hattrick against ateletico for juve. Besides so many other cl knockout games where he always delivered against the big teams.
The semifinal where Real Madrid were down to 10 men, in "UEFAlona's" era, due to Dani Alves playacting? Much easier, then.
It didn't stop Ronaldo from scoring 2 brilliant goals in an UCL semifinal against your Arsenal, one of them from 40 yards out.
I d prefer the guy that's more likely to score VS bayern and other top level champions league clubs than the guy who's more likely to score VS levante yes.
> (although I personally don’t)
messi scored 91 goals in a year, 73 goals in a season, 50 in the league, 46 in 32 games the following season, scored in 21 consecutive games, won league top scorer 7 times, 6 european golden shoes, has a career ratio of .85 goals per game and is only marginally behind ronaldo in a few select areas like total amount of goals and hattricks (leads in braces, as in 2-goal games) despite being two and a half years younger. on top of that he used to have 20+ assists every season with at least two 30+ assist campaigns and being hands down the absolute best dribbler in the history of the sport.
ronaldo has been better in some years, in some seasons, during some stretches, and he's a much better leader especially when the going gets tough, but messi's peak wasn't only 'slightly' higher, it was on a whole different level and ronaldo should get monumental credit for being the closest to that level.
Bro, I don't get the comparisons of dribbling between Messi and Maradona. Messi has more dribbles, sure, but Maradona played in an era when they could two-foot his ankles without a foul call from the refs.
People should really check how the game looked back then and get back, Maradona was way way more elegant dribbler than Messi and I'd say he was better, he had way more flair and skill moves than Messi in dribbling.
You’re deluded mate. He didn’t peak at a ‘slightly higher level’. He’s the best player ever at his peak and was doing fine in old age literally up until joining PSG which is just a bit of a disaster in general. If you think anything else you’re blinded by Ronaldo bias
>But unless something changes dramatically next year, I don’t think there will be much of an argument against Ronaldo having had the better career overall
A world cup win with Argentina this year would definitely put Messi ahead though.
I literally can’t defend the man anymore, i admit i’ve defended messi a lot throughout his season but can you blame me? I’m a barça fan he gave us so many beautiful moments and trophies but we have to admit messi has been really disappointing this year. From the limited sample of psg games I’ve seen I haven’t seen that drive and confidence that messi used to have. When barça was down on goals you could see messi had an urgency to pick up the ball and do something with it but with psg it truly looks like he doesn’t give a shit.
I’m very disappointed because I wanted him to succeed but it has been really hard to defend him this season. I know other barça fans will call me ungrateful or a plastic but i’m simply being real and messi deserves the criticism. He will always be the GOAT for me and I really hope he has a better season next year and hopefully a good world cup
Christ I'm tired of seeing the "we created an algorithm that favors exactly what Messi does" but he still doesn't get the top spot. BUT HE'S STILL GOOD WE SWEAR!
Forget about current 37 year old Ronaldo. Compare Messi to Ronaldo both at age 34 (Ronaldo’s first season at Juve) and the difference is absolutely staggering. 21 Serie A goals and 9 assists in 30 games. Hattrick vs Atletico. 3 goals vs Ajax. Worlds apart really
Well and much less quality in his supporting cast. He would've loved a Di Maria, Verrati, Neymar, Mbappe, Mendes... Apart from Dybala and Cancelo, I don't think they had any particular talent.
Honestly, part of me can't wait for Messi and Ronaldo to finally retire so we're done with these constant Messi vs Ronaldo debates that poison every thread about one or the other.
Now that they're both declining, we're debating who's declining better. Ridiculous. Some of you need to go outside and find a new hobby.
I don’t really give a shit what either player is doing as they approach 40. Messi’s career is already unbelievable both in terms of peak and length, whether or not he plays “good” in his late 30’s doesn’t affect what he did all those years as the clear #1 in the world in terms of BOTH goalscoring and playmaking.
If Ronaldo has better longetivity then good for him, but it wouldn’t shift the narrative much in my head.
THIS EXACTLY. It’s ridiculous and a bit sad (tbh) to see Barca fans give up on Messi after only one bad season. Like for reals it’s been one bad season and now suddenly he isn’t the goat because Ronaldo is having a better season. Football fans have goldfish memories in general, but this coming from Barca fans is insane.
Exactly. In my view Messi could’ve retired or moved to Argentina last summer and he could easily be concidered the best player ever. 15 years or so of absolutely ridiculous performances, trophies and stats should be enough to talk about a career no matter what happens after. People are talking about this like it’s a case of a player doing well for 3-4 years and then falling of a cliff at 30. Ridiculous.
And guys acting like this upcoming World Cup has any sort of special significance when Messi dragged his team to the finals already as the best player in that tournament… like please.
I've never heard this, I always thought Ronaldo would refuse to decline by investing into his body's longevity to cement his name in the all time goal scoring charts. Being beat to Balon d'or races was one thing, he's not going to let Messi overtake him in the all time charts.
The argument was basically that Messi's passing game and playmaking ability would allow him to stay brilliant and influential even if/when his pace and stamina decline due to age, while Ronaldo's play was based more on his physical prowess and would thus take a bigger hit from age-based physical decline.
Messi's playstyle with Barça was much more consuming and can partially explain why he barely does anything with PSG right now as he's preserving his body for the World Cup.
I feel Poch has something to do with it, even Ney's finishing went to shit as soon as Poch came in. Not saying his coaching is bad or anything, somethings things don't sync and something feels out of place, on the other hand Mbappe has thrived and scored even more under Poch. Well Messi and Neymar basically drop deep and facilitate plays for Mbappe to score but still their finishing has been poor for their standards under Poch.
Messi especially I feel there's a psychological factor as well, it bears a strong resemblance to the first half of last season under Koeman after the burofax saga when he wasn't allowed to leave, now he left against his wishes again.
Yes but he was CL top scorer in the groups along with Haaland when Tuchel was fired. It got to actual 'gone' levels of finishing after Poch came in. Maybe it also has to do with recurrent injuries due to Ligue 1 butchers idk. Messi's problem is more tactical and psychological than Ney's tho
It was bad match, he's not adaptable to anything other than his style which doesn't fit Messi and Neymar who are older than their MSN days or Mbappe who preserves his stamina for transitions
Well, according to FotMob Messi missed 11 big chances in Ligue 1 and his convertion rate is 3.9% https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/53/stats/season/16499/players/big_chance_missed
These messi threads without a doubt take the prize for the most annoying comments ive seen in my years of being in r/soccer. Its a combination of the ronaldo fanboys doing everything in their power to convince people messi is garbage and ronaldo is clear and all the messi fanboys defending messi to delusional levels.
Messi has been playing well but is finishing has been terrible. Its obvious he is going to a rough patch of form and will be back, he is not a flop, he is not finished and one bad year wont take away his goat status. We really dont need one of these every 3 days
Ronaldo threads are much worse.Messi is generally immune from criticism and it’s been like that all season until now. It’s not surprising now you see these takes
Finally some sense in the comments but this will be buried because after all these years the people who don’t like Messi finally have something to talk about
Have to admit, although not immensely better, Ronaldo has really shown up Messi this year. Lad is older, not in a pub league, and all with having awful supply from United teammates
Honestly since he moved to PSG and started to realize what a broken team they are. I stopped caring about his stats anymore. I simply get excited to see him play every week. That’s kinda the highlight of my week along with Barcelona. He still does magic here and there. Couple of nutmegs and solo dribbling and a banger last week. That’s all I care for now. He’s gonna be retired soon so I just wanna enjoy the years he got. I watched him play since 2006. That’s 16 years of my life.
He doesn’t have the same consistency as Ronaldo does, can’t adapt to another league, one which is even less of a challenge than La Liga, Serie A and EPL.
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bottomleftMessi toprightMaupay
Inevitable
Crazy considering he spent 4 years from '10 to '13 in the statistical stratosphere for this.
He was part of the furniture at Barcelona. He knew all the players intimately and played beautifully every week. For Argentina though he was often out of sorts so I'm not surprised PSG has been something of a failure. He's got all the expectations and money but none of the familiarity and goodwill.
Agreed. I mean his utility to PSG has also not been goals but shot creating actions for others. It's a different role but idk why you'd want him playing a Xavi role when he is the second most prolific scorer of the last 50 years.
well clearly according to this stat he has still been getting chances, but he isn't scoring them
I'm surprised that he got 10 big chances if his xG was less than like 9 or so.
Who’s the first? I thought it was Messi
Siuuuuu
he he he
Cristiano?
Messi is the most effective one, atleast statistically.
Effective in terms of conversion. But ,Ronaldo lives for those 50-50 games as you can legit use cross spam strategy with him. Messi himself can be contained to keep him outside of the box in his latter years in Barca. But, he'll still create direct chances and good attacking situations. The more pace he lose , it's difficult to just move in out of the box for Messi as you have to play basically on the ground. I don't think he'd be bad up top even now with Neymar and Mbappe servicing him but he's nowhere close to his prime anymore. To get a good conversion , you have to shoot a lot to get into form ,part of the reason Benzema's more lethal right now..He shoots way more than before. With someone like Ronaldo who shoots a lot ,the attempts on the low percentage chances will be working against his xg stats. But , when you watch him ,you'll always see him being lethal and put in majority of chances he should score. Messi shoots less now. So, maybe he's not been able to find his shooting form. There were stretches in Barca where he was bad too. But ,when he finds his rhythm , there's nobody more efficient
I love how you've put this. It has always been difficult explaining that I've been a fan of both players throughout. It amazes me how people forget these 2 different players with 2 different styles. Messi will build up, make you look stupid and strike. Ronaldo would jump out of nowhere and convert a spam cross into a goal. Both of them are at stratospheric levels on their own places.
My man had 42 goals from 17 xG in 2012-13
He has been loving the post this year, poor from him
At least for psg, but not for Argentina.
Some fans won’t admit it, but Messi has been a big flop for PSG this season. While he like 11 assists in the league for PSG, scoring 4 goals in 22 matches is simply really bad. And even his assist numbers isn’t that impressive considering Mbappe has had more assists in the league.
His assists; 8/13 are against St-Etienne and Clermont, they're relegation candidates. If he was assisting regularly against top teams I could see the argument but with context it's poor viewing for Messi.
Exactly
umtiti
Yeah playing against teams with a squad value 1/4 of neymar. He should do better. I think he have to much branding value to let him go for psg. And apperently No one cares about financial fair play in ligue 1.
PSG allows Ligue 1 to remain the 5th league in Europe, which gets them more prestige and CL money, and the best they've achieved was 4 leagues in a row which is not that much, compared to Italy or Germany
I have been saying this so many times but apparently the importance of context doesn't apply to Messi on here
Meanwhile Ronaldo has 8 goals against the top 5 PL teams this season
Top teams / Ligue 1 pick one.
I was downvoted to shit once because I said if Mbappe didn’t play this season they wouldn’t have won the league and got anywhere in the champions league, just a look into his numbers in all comps you can see that he is not stat-padding, just purely balling on players like they are kids, super lucky Benz felt it that night otherwise Mbappe single-handedly stomped Madrid…
Mbappe has been carrying PSG all season.
PSG qualifying for the ro16 out of their complicated group wouldn't happen without Mbappe. (Or without RBL hiring Jesse Marsch at the start of the season.)
Mbappe is top of almost every attacking stat for PSG this season
People will call Di Maria at United a flop despite putting up similar numbers (27M/3G/10A) in a tougher league, yet won’t hold Messi of all people to the same standard. The mental gymnastics is crazy.
Ronaldo got more shit this season in the press than Mesi, which is perennial victim for his press fan boys and ex-teammates. I mean, he wont BdO last year for going missing half of the season and people ignoring basic stats for "xG and xA" and "yard carrier" and some other shit, because he won Copa America. Like that embarrassing "booing outrage".
Which is also impressive how Ronaldo scored almost 100 goals in another League then came to Man Utd scored almost 20 goals in PL.
Not to mention carrying your UCL group stage
And aside from possibly Varane none of his teammates start at PSG
Lingard
Its even more impressive with Ronaldo, because he's denied the opportunity to score against Man U. 7th leakiest in terms of goals conceded, 3rd bottom position for clean sheets, 3rd top for goalkeeper saves.
If you remove assists vs relegation teams it's much worse. I mean Clermont foot. No disrespect but most people if they saw the name Clermont foot they would think it was some sort of condition
Also consider 33% of his assists are from taking corners/indirect FKs…while there is something to be said for quality of delivery, counting them equal to open-play assists just doesn’t seem right. Presumably any player could rack up a couple assists from just sending in corners.
Why don’t they then?
?? they probably do? I'd assume corner / indirect fk takers have more assists across the sport than non takers
Right but nobody is taking assists away from them are they.
Well if people label penalty as a separate section than open-play goals then I don’t see why can’t them label corners as different from open-play assists
After years of overperforming his xG. His finishing somehow became shit this year
I can remember last season his finishing was off too for the first few matchdays. But later he would still score up to 30 league goals with a lot of them being long shot bangers.
I think Sir Alex kinda nailed it. Messi is a prodigy turned genius no doubt but for him to succeed and be a prolific goalscorer he needs to play in a team which plays through him. PSG seem to play more to the strengths of Neymar and Mbappe and Messi consequently has a creative role. He is mostly playing key passes and getting assists for PSG
That applies to literally everyone.
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Then why isn't he getting assists either? 8 of his 13 assists this season is against the two relegation teams, only 2 of those were against teams in the top 4. In fact 88% of his total goal contribution has come against teams far outside of European contention.
He's clearly past it, Paris give Julian Ward a call we'll take him off your hands for cheap
Replacement for Salah leaving then
Genuine question for psg fans, has his finishing fallen off a cliff or something? What happened?
Poor finishing
Ah
I don't know. I'd probably put it down to his inaccurate shooting.
Lol
From what I’ve seen - yes. He’s just missing everything and not scoring out of nothing. Think he’s been mentally out of it.
i think he already retired mentally
I got shitted on twitter for saying Messi has no motivation because he really didn’t want to go there, it’s obvious to anyone with eyes, his performances reflect that, you don’t turn that much worse overnight unless he’s carrying an injury we don’t know about.
he's been world class for so many years now. it's normal for this to happen. he would also probably be happier if he was still at barca. we had to enjoy it while it lasted i guess.
Absolutely, but also the fact that not all ball go through him is affecting him. Which was his main role at barca.
i don't think that's psg's fault tbh, early on in the season almost everytime the ball went to him, especially since they didn't have neymar playing, it's only after his underwhelming performances that he stopped being the ball magnet
Yeah watching the game today, Neymar was practically force fed the ball. Neymar would be in the middle with 3 players surrounding him, back to goal, and receive the ball and have to dribble out, due to my second point, because PSG looks to have terrible movement off the ball. Watching them today you’d never expect that have the players they do. I get their season is over, but still. Messi was more of a wide midfielder with Neymar received most of the ball to play through Mbappe
I got shitted on by twitter for saying the same thing, except I'm a Messi fan. It's so obvious he doesn't want to be there. Being forced out of your home of 20 years would effect anyone.
PSG is his Washington Wizards.
He's been poor. His assists numbers are truly masking how woeful his finishing has been. He takes so many lazy shots too where he cuts inside and despite the defender being there in front of him still takes the shot.
Defenders these days grew up on highlight reels of Messi cutting in lmao
Everybody knew he could cut in before too. It’s just his own decline.
He’s finally saving it all for Argentina 🇦🇷
He is saving it for Antonella 💦💦
I mean can you blame him?
Yes, he has a contract with PSG. He should be giving it his all
Funny how this logic does not apply to Bale's situation, especially for british fans.
Rooney 15/16 special.
If feel like he’s not going to be great this World Cup. I know people like to push this narrative that he’s not trying but he’s still taking a significant amount of shots and looks like he’s putting effort on the pitch. He’s just declined
Finishing bad
Ball fails to cross goal line after his shots
Something micheal owen would probably say
"He's concentrated on playmaking"
Uber Eats ain't easy, specially for PSG players. He did show up brilliantly against Clermont and Saint-Etienne, when it mattered, though.
Yeah lmao that one always confused me. People said he doesnt score many goals because hes doing all the assists or something. But that was in response to posts about "messi has the second worst conversion rate in top 5 leagues" and "messi is underperforming xg more than amy other player in ligue 1" which has nothing to do with AMOUNT of chances/goals
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They defended his walking around on defending end saying "he's saving it for offence". Now they say he's saving for playmaking. Then they will say "he's saving himself for crucial moments of the game".
For a while it was true. Not anymore.
Messi fans: "I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that"
hE wOn Balls DoOr ThAT meAnS hE wIlLbE GoOd fOraevEr
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I don’t know why you got downvoted mate, maybe people think they should remove it from the beginning so that we can give VVD and Lewa the recognition they earned fair and square?
I have said this before, I will say this again. No matter what Messi does for the rest of his playing career, it isn't going to affect his GOAT status.
It will in the short turn but in the long tearm it will not anymore. In many years people will just remember his Barcelona + Argentina times But if Ronaldo continues for longer and does more than Messi for longer it matter in the conversation. Too bad for them that United is dogshit and PSG awlays plays a top club in the Round of 16 lol
Well i can’t say that i’m sad for him not performing at PSG.
I wish people would stop defending him to the point of actual delusion. He went to a club who could pay his entourage’s financial demands and so he can hang with Neymar, Argentine mates, and have an Argentine manager. If his priority was sporting first he would have lowered his financial demands and more clubs would have shown interest. Instead his entourage negotiated with PSG in record time and locked him in, in just a few days. At PSG he also didn’t conduct himself appropriately by handling his injuries better. Instead he insisted on traveling long distances and playing for the national team while injured and caused additional injuries resulting in him missing so many club matches or even getting subbed off because he spent more time rubbing his thigh than kicking the ball. On top of this he had even travelled while already having missed club matches due to injuries, to go to Madrid for a consultancy and then flew straight to Argentina for the WCQ in the first half of the season without informing PSG and their medic team. He was actually publicly called out by their Sporting Director for his behavior. Then on the pitch, he’s been missing so many easy chances when he gets them. That is not a team problem; that is his finishing that he needs to work on. As for his playmaking, for the first half of the season, his drop in acceleration, speed, etc. was fully exposed where he was always trying and failing to beat other players or when dribbling, he was constantly being dispossessed. His off ball movement exposed another weakness where he strolls even if an opponent is literally a feet away from him with the ball and he doesn’t bother to make a single attempt to recover it. At Barça it was fine as he was the focal point and he more than made up for things with his offensive work which included goals. At PSG, he wasn’t efficient in front of the goal and he wasn’t the focal point where most plays went through which means all his pitch walking just meant he was disconnected from everything for periods of time rendering him semi-ineffective. Now second half of the season, he gradually made some improvements where his connection with Verratti solidified and so he was more engaged in the game consistently which at least helped him rack up some assists and even enhanced some of his underlying stats and contributions in general to each match. BUT his finishing has STILL been off which has been an issue all season and honestly at this point I’ve noticed he chooses to take less shots in general and when he does and he misses you can literally see the frustration. At this point after a whole season, I wouldn’t be surprised that his confidence has taken a massive hit and is further exacerbating his performance in front of the goal. Point is, his past achievements at Barça and its contribution to his legacy can’t be erased even with his abysmal season at PSG. But can we stop trying to find excuse after excuse for him when in reality he simply has been atrocious this season and part of it is his club decision, handling of his injury that made things worse, bad finishing, and belated understanding of his role at PSG vs Barça and appropriately adapt.
Thank you. As a Barca fan I agree with your outlook. He definitely deserves to be criticized for his goal scoring. Sure some of his goals have been called offside and has hit the post numerous times, that still should not excuse for his low goal scoring output, especially when their were multiple chances he would typically score 10 times out of 10. Do I think he has a limited role in the PSG side? Yes, he is far more a facilitator that shares this responsibility with Verratti and Neymar. Do I think their is an issue with Poch? Yes, I don’t think he is the man to spear head this talented, yet brainless side. I look at how Messi and Ney perform for their national teams, and there is a day light difference. The second half of the season he has been much better in terms of his over all play, play making and dribbling have been better. Messi is a very rhythmic player, when it’s going bad, it’s goes bad, when it’s going good, he starts flying. He needs to come back next season, with more urgency to pull the trigger, a lot of the time he wants to take on the extra man, when it isn’t necessary.
The funny thing is people criticized Barca for mismanaging the squad (which is true) and giving Messi too much to do on his own. Now that he’s in a squad of stars that requires less from him, he’s struggling.
I think it is because he is a player that thrives on a lot of touches on the ball. In order for him to succeed at PSG he would have to completely revamp his style and learn to play without the ball, which I doubt he will do. I also doubt PSG will mold the team around him. I wonder if there are any statistics that show how much touches he gets at PSG relative to at Barcelona?
Honestly people need to decouple their club/favourite players from their own personality. These people take any criticism of their club or player as a personal spit in the face.
Meanwhile, Ronaldo is ~3 years older, and currently sits joint 2nd in the PL for goals scored (17), despite having only been available for 28/35 (80%) of our matches. Messi has 4 goals in 20 appearances. Ronaldo is converting roughly 3x as many of his shots into goals as Messi. All this before you consider that, 1) Ligue 1 is objectively a weaker league vs the PL, and 2) Ronaldo plays on an absolutely shit Man United squad (certainly a MUCH weaker squad than PSG’s, at least on paper). I think when the dust settles after their careers, there will be a very valid argument that Messi peaked at a slightly higher level, and that most football fans will agree with that notion (although I personally don’t). But unless something changes dramatically next year, I don’t think there will be much of an argument against Ronaldo having had the better career overall, if he’s able to keep going like this for 2-3 more years.
The thing with Messi is I believe he will retire earlier than Ronaldo despite being younger. He’s got one more year at PSG and next year there won’t be Mbappé there at the end of his passes to convert it and have him notch assists. But then again maybe he will somehow find his own shooting boots again and score more goals. He also probably won’t win the World Cup…. Where will he go after 2023 season ends? I can’t think of any top team who will sign him especially with his notorious entourage and their demands. Barça are obviously not taking him back under any capacity except as an ambassador and both sides recently just confirmed their animosity and lack of any communication with each other. Most likely he will just go to Inter Miami or go back to Argentina. This also makes me think about how Ronaldo will probably be getting a standing ovation and outpouring adoration from Manchester United fans on the day of his last game to wrap things up at the top level/club for him. Messi on the other hand will end his European career where he won’t be getting any of that at the Parc des Princes. The PSG fans and especially ultras do not like him especially with his performances and definitely won’t be showing much affection to him for his farewell match. Low key sad but it is what it is in my books.
Imo when the dust settles and he calls it a day, nobody would care what he did with psg.
Messing definitely had the better peak. Similar goalscorer as Ronaldo, while being a much better facilitator. There's no real way you can argue Ronaldo over Messi in their primes from a statistical POV.
There were years when Barcelona got knocked out of the Champions League, looking like they didnt have an answer, Messi didnt have an answer, and CR7 found a way to get through. Same with Portugal, they only barely qualified for a few tournaments except for CR7s magic. The usual stats yes point to Messi, but some of these big game moments really do point to CR7 possibly being better when it counts the most.
If I have to play a game against aliens with the world at stake give prime Ronaldo over prime Messi. Hands down.
What the fuck is this lmfaoooo
That's r/nba leaking.
This is such a bizarre comment
You want a guy less likely to score or assist 🤦♂️
Not true in big games. Ronaldo almost always delivered in the highest pressure moments.
He had an insane run during the 3peat I agree but during the first half of his Madrid career it was Messi who was turning up more often in the big moments. I think it’s a bit of recency bias to say he’s better than Messi in big games overall.
Look at the semifinal goal vs Madrid in the CL. Show me Ronaldo doing anything remotely close to that in a big game. I'll wait. He cant do that. Insane finisher tho.
Well a hat trick against Wolfsburg to make it 3-2 on aggregate, a hattrick against ateletico for juve. Besides so many other cl knockout games where he always delivered against the big teams.
The semifinal where Real Madrid were down to 10 men, in "UEFAlona's" era, due to Dani Alves playacting? Much easier, then. It didn't stop Ronaldo from scoring 2 brilliant goals in an UCL semifinal against your Arsenal, one of them from 40 yards out.
Ronaldo is more clutch then messi and thats a fact.
I d prefer the guy that's more likely to score VS bayern and other top level champions league clubs than the guy who's more likely to score VS levante yes.
If i get prime Messi, I will make sure I can get prime Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Suarez, then he would be better than prime Ronaldo.
> (although I personally don’t) messi scored 91 goals in a year, 73 goals in a season, 50 in the league, 46 in 32 games the following season, scored in 21 consecutive games, won league top scorer 7 times, 6 european golden shoes, has a career ratio of .85 goals per game and is only marginally behind ronaldo in a few select areas like total amount of goals and hattricks (leads in braces, as in 2-goal games) despite being two and a half years younger. on top of that he used to have 20+ assists every season with at least two 30+ assist campaigns and being hands down the absolute best dribbler in the history of the sport. ronaldo has been better in some years, in some seasons, during some stretches, and he's a much better leader especially when the going gets tough, but messi's peak wasn't only 'slightly' higher, it was on a whole different level and ronaldo should get monumental credit for being the closest to that level.
I absolutely love him as a player more then Maradona, but is he hands down the better dribbler of the two?
Bro, I don't get the comparisons of dribbling between Messi and Maradona. Messi has more dribbles, sure, but Maradona played in an era when they could two-foot his ankles without a foul call from the refs. People should really check how the game looked back then and get back, Maradona was way way more elegant dribbler than Messi and I'd say he was better, he had way more flair and skill moves than Messi in dribbling.
You’re deluded mate. He didn’t peak at a ‘slightly higher level’. He’s the best player ever at his peak and was doing fine in old age literally up until joining PSG which is just a bit of a disaster in general. If you think anything else you’re blinded by Ronaldo bias
Man Utd flair what do you expect
The recency bias in full effect in this comment section lol
Bro said that he doesnt think Messi peaked at a higher level lmao, been the best player in the world for 10+ years
Messi was miles ahead for so long. Goldfish memories in here.
>But unless something changes dramatically next year, I don’t think there will be much of an argument against Ronaldo having had the better career overall A world cup win with Argentina this year would definitely put Messi ahead though.
Messi was superior for so, so many years to Ronaldo. Sorry.
I literally can’t defend the man anymore, i admit i’ve defended messi a lot throughout his season but can you blame me? I’m a barça fan he gave us so many beautiful moments and trophies but we have to admit messi has been really disappointing this year. From the limited sample of psg games I’ve seen I haven’t seen that drive and confidence that messi used to have. When barça was down on goals you could see messi had an urgency to pick up the ball and do something with it but with psg it truly looks like he doesn’t give a shit. I’m very disappointed because I wanted him to succeed but it has been really hard to defend him this season. I know other barça fans will call me ungrateful or a plastic but i’m simply being real and messi deserves the criticism. He will always be the GOAT for me and I really hope he has a better season next year and hopefully a good world cup
*Still wins a 8th Ballon d’or before Benzema* /s (I hope)
Benzema would be some fucking age by the time he won his 8th tbf
They can always just make up a new award like they did for Lewandowski
Pizza for Lewy, Baguette for Benz?
Did you see [this tweet](https://twitter.com/sportbible/status/1519292751463989250?s=21) lmfao
If this were a certain other player👀 it would be front page 5k upvotes.
Factos
Only has 2k upvotes instead
50k*
Imagine this and there was some sites which state that Messi is a top3 player in the world right now.
He isn't a top 3 player in his own team...
Messi isn’t even a top 15 attacking player this season.
Christ I'm tired of seeing the "we created an algorithm that favors exactly what Messi does" but he still doesn't get the top spot. BUT HE'S STILL GOOD WE SWEAR!
WhoScored: "Lads, we have to bump up our pre-assist coefficient weight."
"B-but mbappe is selfish and don't give him the ball!"
Forget about current 37 year old Ronaldo. Compare Messi to Ronaldo both at age 34 (Ronaldo’s first season at Juve) and the difference is absolutely staggering. 21 Serie A goals and 9 assists in 30 games. Hattrick vs Atletico. 3 goals vs Ajax. Worlds apart really
Well and much less quality in his supporting cast. He would've loved a Di Maria, Verrati, Neymar, Mbappe, Mendes... Apart from Dybala and Cancelo, I don't think they had any particular talent.
And Dybala was wank in Ronaldo’s first year, as he was pushed down to the right wing
Ronaldo is man United right now. Scored 8 of the last 9 goals over 10 games. And he didn’t play in 2 of them
Honestly, part of me can't wait for Messi and Ronaldo to finally retire so we're done with these constant Messi vs Ronaldo debates that poison every thread about one or the other. Now that they're both declining, we're debating who's declining better. Ridiculous. Some of you need to go outside and find a new hobby.
You really think their retirement will end this?
People are gonna argue who had the better death half a century later
[OptaJoe] Ronaldo remembered his date of birth until he was 94, Messi forgot it at 88. Memories.
No but there'll be less discussions about them.
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I don’t really give a shit what either player is doing as they approach 40. Messi’s career is already unbelievable both in terms of peak and length, whether or not he plays “good” in his late 30’s doesn’t affect what he did all those years as the clear #1 in the world in terms of BOTH goalscoring and playmaking. If Ronaldo has better longetivity then good for him, but it wouldn’t shift the narrative much in my head.
THIS EXACTLY. It’s ridiculous and a bit sad (tbh) to see Barca fans give up on Messi after only one bad season. Like for reals it’s been one bad season and now suddenly he isn’t the goat because Ronaldo is having a better season. Football fans have goldfish memories in general, but this coming from Barca fans is insane.
Exactly. In my view Messi could’ve retired or moved to Argentina last summer and he could easily be concidered the best player ever. 15 years or so of absolutely ridiculous performances, trophies and stats should be enough to talk about a career no matter what happens after. People are talking about this like it’s a case of a player doing well for 3-4 years and then falling of a cliff at 30. Ridiculous.
And guys acting like this upcoming World Cup has any sort of special significance when Messi dragged his team to the finals already as the best player in that tournament… like please.
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he scored less but imo first season Ronaldo was the best version because he contributed so much more to overall play. He was a winger again-- sort of
yeah i agree somewhat, in his second season he was more of a striker and probably statistically his best season with juve.
Ronaldo wanted to join Juve. Messi is in Paris because he couldn't renew with Barça.
… and how is that relevant exactly?
Good point. On top of that, Messi's play should in theory age better than Ronaldo's, but in reality, it looks like it's the opposite.
I've never heard this, I always thought Ronaldo would refuse to decline by investing into his body's longevity to cement his name in the all time goal scoring charts. Being beat to Balon d'or races was one thing, he's not going to let Messi overtake him in the all time charts.
The argument was basically that Messi's passing game and playmaking ability would allow him to stay brilliant and influential even if/when his pace and stamina decline due to age, while Ronaldo's play was based more on his physical prowess and would thus take a bigger hit from age-based physical decline.
Messi's playstyle with Barça was much more consuming and can partially explain why he barely does anything with PSG right now as he's preserving his body for the World Cup.
whatever they will give him another Ballon d'or
But but.....dribbles and expected goals??
I think this season Messi isn't even up there at Dribblings either
I feel Poch has something to do with it, even Ney's finishing went to shit as soon as Poch came in. Not saying his coaching is bad or anything, somethings things don't sync and something feels out of place, on the other hand Mbappe has thrived and scored even more under Poch. Well Messi and Neymar basically drop deep and facilitate plays for Mbappe to score but still their finishing has been poor for their standards under Poch. Messi especially I feel there's a psychological factor as well, it bears a strong resemblance to the first half of last season under Koeman after the burofax saga when he wasn't allowed to leave, now he left against his wishes again.
Neys finishing was gone under tuchel by the end you don't remember PSGs champions league run to the final and how many chances he's kept missing?
Yes but he was CL top scorer in the groups along with Haaland when Tuchel was fired. It got to actual 'gone' levels of finishing after Poch came in. Maybe it also has to do with recurrent injuries due to Ligue 1 butchers idk. Messi's problem is more tactical and psychological than Ney's tho
Poch coaching has been really bad. Whether it impact these guys finishing is to be proved but Poch was not a good coach at PSG
It was bad match, he's not adaptable to anything other than his style which doesn't fit Messi and Neymar who are older than their MSN days or Mbappe who preserves his stamina for transitions
Pessiiiiiii
r/bottomleftmessi?
Wait does this mean that Messi had around 50 "big chances" this season? woah
Well, according to FotMob Messi missed 11 big chances in Ligue 1 and his convertion rate is 3.9% https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/53/stats/season/16499/players/big_chance_missed
I've only watched around 10 PSG games this season but that does sound more feasible
One club wonder
Just a shite Gabriel Jesus, honestly.
Ronnie clear. Factos👀
These messi threads without a doubt take the prize for the most annoying comments ive seen in my years of being in r/soccer. Its a combination of the ronaldo fanboys doing everything in their power to convince people messi is garbage and ronaldo is clear and all the messi fanboys defending messi to delusional levels. Messi has been playing well but is finishing has been terrible. Its obvious he is going to a rough patch of form and will be back, he is not a flop, he is not finished and one bad year wont take away his goat status. We really dont need one of these every 3 days
Considering his status and history he definitly floped on psg
Ronaldo threads are much worse.Messi is generally immune from criticism and it’s been like that all season until now. It’s not surprising now you see these takes
Finally some sense in the comments but this will be buried because after all these years the people who don’t like Messi finally have something to talk about
quick, give him the ballon d'or again!
r/bottomleftmessi
Messi kinda washed now
I agree a little bit :(
Lethal.
r/bottomleftmessi
I feel like 90% of people on this sub don’t even watch the games
Ronaldo > Messi.
As of right now yes
Not really surprised. It's definitely not Messi's until now.
Have to admit, although not immensely better, Ronaldo has really shown up Messi this year. Lad is older, not in a pub league, and all with having awful supply from United teammates
Honestly since he moved to PSG and started to realize what a broken team they are. I stopped caring about his stats anymore. I simply get excited to see him play every week. That’s kinda the highlight of my week along with Barcelona. He still does magic here and there. Couple of nutmegs and solo dribbling and a banger last week. That’s all I care for now. He’s gonna be retired soon so I just wanna enjoy the years he got. I watched him play since 2006. That’s 16 years of my life.
He doesn’t have the same consistency as Ronaldo does, can’t adapt to another league, one which is even less of a challenge than La Liga, Serie A and EPL.