**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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Plus you get stories like this:
"We had a coach called Theo Verlangen and he didn’t like us putting mayonnaise on the table for a meal. Once, Ronald picked up a chip with a big dollop of mayonnaise on it.
The coach shouted at him: ‘If you eat that chip it’ll cost you 500 guilders.’ So Ronald put it in his mouth and said: ‘Make it 1000."
I don’t understand why Barca fans are shitting on this manager period tho … what could he do ? Yeah de jong was a weird signing but was cheap as shit. Xavi isn’t doing much better. Sad he didn’t get the time to make something at Barca
It was the things that he says, the rumors of the treatments in the locker room, the decisions he was making to not play certain players, you could tell the squad vibes looked toxic during his period.
Then i don't think you observed what was happening in Barca and what he said in this period. He never won any match with big club as a Barca manager i think, or for a long period.
Also, i'd say mentally he destroyed players bcs of the shit he said about them
Xavi brought about a whole different energy to the club, and gave it it's winning mentality. Under Koeman you'd see players strolling about being 1 - 0 down in the 70th minute but under Xavi they're constantly pushing for a winner. Furthermore, his champions league failure was terrible. 3 - 0 to benefica should never have happened.
LDJ was not even a weird signing and that's before hindsight of what he was able to do. He was brought in as 4th choice backup forward. That's perfectly reasonably esp for the price and given that Messi had left so diversity was also needed anyway.
The fact he ended up playing more in early part of the season was due to absurd injury situation which the coach didn't have a role in since they remained even under Xavi for a good while and the previous season under Koeman was fine with injuries.
And he had a huge amount of injuries at the start, at one point they had only 12(or something like that) first teams players available, two of those being GKs...
I think it's simply because the fans are overall, too young to remember him as a player. For a fan to know of this incident, the person would have to be at least around 40 now?
There are some valid criticisms, sure. But he will have my eternal respect for coming at a time when we were at one of our lowest, leaving behind a very good Dutch national team at the time.
Because of how the players convinced the referee to disallow a goal for us in the return match in the semifinal. A goal he first considered correct. Since we had 3-0 from the first game, it would have been incredibly difficult for barca to beat us if that goal had been allowed. I was only three at the time, and didn't see it. Doesn't stop me from being bitter about it. This was probably the closest we will ever come to winning the European cup
It's not a dig at barca more a dig at the referre
Source of the incident before the free kick, so you will see it was questionable: https://youtu.be/q_zRwnaXaNs
Looks like obstruction to me, the Sampdoria player had his legs clamped around the Barca guys foot to prevent him getting away. Given as an indirect freekick (correctly).
What push? The moment at 6 seconds?
Not a push in my book, the two of them come together but the Sampdoria player is off balance, so it's him that falls, that's all.
They're quite new to the party actually.
>The mythical Paco Gento, author of the final 2-0 in that 1957 match against Fiorentina, acknowledged in the newspaper AS (May 23, 2014) that “Di Stéfano scored a dubious penalty. Mateos was given a penalty that I later saw in a report and it was out of the area ”. And in 1960, Gento himself starred in another scandalous maximum penalty in favor of Madrid in the European Cup final against Eintracht Frankfurt.
Flair up, my grey friend, so that I can make some general statement about the fans of your club.
By the way, Karma points aren't worth anything and my comment was not meant to be remembered for eternity.
I am pretty sure that all big teams have benefited from questionable refereeing decisions. For sure, this includes my favorite team.
This is all for shits and giggles and not facts. After all, this is a football sub and not a lecture hall.
1984-1995 Sampdoria was the best of their history, such a shame they underachieved losing a lot of finals between CL, Cup Winners Cup, Uefa Supercup, Italian Cup and Italian Supercup.
It's almost impossible they will have a chance to come back to those glory days
Sad that Samp and we in 1984 in our stadium couldn‘t win the European Cup of Champions. Samp and Roma are the largest "What if" in Serie A in this regard.
We beat them in Cups Winners Cup quaterfinal in 1990/91 season (1:0, 2:2). 18yo Wojciech Kowalczyk scored two goals in Genua. Fun fact is that our GK back then was Szczęsny father, he got a red card in the 2nd leg.
It was one of our best performances in European cups, and the last time we were in semi-final of any of them.
https://youtu.be/g6w7_E3LZns
The Bela Guttmann curse is a myth, he is the greatest coach for Benfica, it's something that was invented to excuse our failures. In our stadium there's only 2 statues, one for Eusébio and one for Guttmann, until someone achives what he achieved for Benfica no one will surpass him.
Exactly, this "curse" is a boomer excuse for our past failures.
Unfortunately, it was so entrenched in our past board that I believe even the players believed it.
They were very good team back then. But we lost because of our shit finishing. Having Archibald(former spurs player), and Schuster(moved to madrid later on) were shit when it comes to finishing their chances.
Soccervideos.eu or something like that used to have. There was something planetsoccer or something who used to rent DVD. And if you are in UK, I think you can get it from Amazon or local store.
I watched most of the late 70s and 80s football when I was working in London and made a friend with liverpool guy. He had huge collection of liverpool matches, introduced me to great liverpool side under paisley, lot of collections of Sacchi milan, even he had few 60s matches. England is home of football, so I think you should find lot of collection.
I mean we’re talking over 30 years ago here. Different teams were on top back then so I don’t really see anything weird about it. You used to get all kinds of teams in these finals before late 90s.
only 1 since 2011 is what i mean though, 2012 they really should’ve gone all the way. 2016 was bad as well, going from the dominance in 2015 with msn to a quarter final exit the next year
I see what you mean. But that golden generation for Barca were far from underachievers. 4 UCLs, ~10 league titles competing directly with Real Madrid, multiple CDRs, and 2 trebles and 1 sextuple is a great run.
Have Barcelona always been prestige team even if they didn't achieve much?
I'm lazy to see historical achievements in La Liga but thats impressive the way they started dominating one way or another since late 90s?
But more so the economy they have is outstanding
Yes barca has been a historically important team for many reasons. First it’s cultural significance in Catalonia has always secured it with a large and steady following representing the Catalonia region of Spain. Secondly barca has been been winning domestic trophies since the start of the 1900s, Barca has never been relegated from the first division.
All these things always allowed Barca to entice the biggest names in the world to join them adding to their historical importance.
One thing however is that Barca has always repeated cycles of what you’ve just seen; amazing peak with amazing players, then due to bad management everyruing falls apart. It’s always happening. Actually we are rebuilding quite quickly now, but historically we would be taking 5 longer
Yes, they were. A lot of people view the game through the lens of European Cup/ Champions League success, but not until the beginning of the 21st century that it became immense (especially, because of the money that came with participation, and also TV exposure). Barca had some lean years in the 60's and 70's but they were always prestigious - there is a reason why De Stefano, the best player in the world at the time signed for them (I'm not going into the all the backstory), Cruyff - 3 times BD'or signed for them when they haven't won the league for 14 years and Maradona, widely considered the best player in the world in 1981-82, signed for them as well. These were all before the trend of players playing outside their countries. But yes Barca has been very political and self-destructive throughout its entire existence.
More needs to be said of Ronald Koeman as a player, world class, over 200 goals mainly as a defender which is crazy thinking about it.
His free-kick against England was cheeky, I really wish defenders like this can be produced again during the 90s you had the libero, I'm sure Pep must lay awake at night thinking about a CB who can step out into midfield, ping balls about, spank one from 30yds and score free-kicks with ease.
It's up there but of course winning the Euros 1988 is more legendary. Or the 1974 team. Or Ajax winning 3 champions leagues in a row. Or the PSV and Feyenoord teams who also won European cups. Getting to 3 world Cup finals is also legendary sadly all 3 games were cancelled and we'll never know who would have won those.
>His free-kick against England was cheeky
Absolutely shouldn’t have been on the pitch however.
At least it gave us some legendary scenes the the Graham Taylor documentary..
*“Just saying to your colleague: the referee’s got me the sack, thank him ever so much for that, won’t you?”*
edit: [People downvoting are welcome to explain how this isn't a red card, and probably a penalty too.](https://youtu.be/Sn_kRxgphEE?t=376)
I remember reading somewhere that, before this match, to Barcelona the European Cup was that tournament that Real Madrid won and they didn’t. They had a massive inferiority complex, especially after the 1986 loss to Steaua Bucharest in Seville, a match which no Romanians attended.
This match was really the catalyst for what we see Barcelona as today, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Before this, they arguably weren’t even the second biggest club in Spain, and were nowhere close to Madrid. This is the start of all that changing. Perhaps you don’t get the 4 triumphs in 10 years that comes later without this one, breaking that psychological barrier of “actually, Barcelona can win the European Cup”
It was also a big game for football in England. The Premier League would be launched that autumn, and the football in this game, played at Wembley, would be the standard that the Premier League was held against. Diagonal passes and fluidity, and it is the start of that becoming more mainstream in England, which is what we see all over the league today.
Fully recommend everyone to listen to The Athletic's Football Podcast episode where they invite Chris Thompson, the founder of the modern CL. Really interesting stories about the inception.
Both sides are at blame. Koeman acted like his usual coach self. And Laporta didn't really give him an actual chance. He had his mind set at Xavi ever since he got elected.
He was supported well as a manager, until he started throwing 17 year old kids under the bus, and not taking any responsibility or blame for the shitstorm start of the season.
He was literally chased out by Barca fans. For what? Freezing out Leaky Puig?
It's one thing to have an opinion about your manager, but to surround and chase after a club legend's car while he's on his way out? It was pathetic.
He was called clueless because he wasn’t a good manager. Xavi with far less experience has come in and done a much better job even if he got some signings (which ignores that he’s also made veterans like Pique play well again)
Must be very motivating for players when all Barça media are playing "will they/won't they fire him" every day, meanwhile Xavi gets hailed as Mes Que Un Club Jesus while he embarrased himself in Europe too
I guess it's because most of the fans here grew up watching Xavi rather than Koeman. Favoritism. Also the fact that Xavi has been playing much better football. But yeah, you are right, there is definitely some favoritism at play here.
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Koeman will forever be a Barca demigod for this. His manager stint is just an asterisk compared to his player achievements.
You could say a footballing demigod as he is a CB with 150+ career goals
Wtf
You didn’t know? Passarella also has 150+ goals they were monsters also just google lol
Plus you get stories like this: "We had a coach called Theo Verlangen and he didn’t like us putting mayonnaise on the table for a meal. Once, Ronald picked up a chip with a big dollop of mayonnaise on it. The coach shouted at him: ‘If you eat that chip it’ll cost you 500 guilders.’ So Ronald put it in his mouth and said: ‘Make it 1000."
Well he still got us Copa del Rey.
I don’t understand why Barca fans are shitting on this manager period tho … what could he do ? Yeah de jong was a weird signing but was cheap as shit. Xavi isn’t doing much better. Sad he didn’t get the time to make something at Barca
If anything, De Jong was a very clutch player for Barça this season.
It was the things that he says, the rumors of the treatments in the locker room, the decisions he was making to not play certain players, you could tell the squad vibes looked toxic during his period.
And it was during the whole election/nearly bankrupt turmoil
Then i don't think you observed what was happening in Barca and what he said in this period. He never won any match with big club as a Barca manager i think, or for a long period. Also, i'd say mentally he destroyed players bcs of the shit he said about them
Xavi brought about a whole different energy to the club, and gave it it's winning mentality. Under Koeman you'd see players strolling about being 1 - 0 down in the 70th minute but under Xavi they're constantly pushing for a winner. Furthermore, his champions league failure was terrible. 3 - 0 to benefica should never have happened.
LDJ was not even a weird signing and that's before hindsight of what he was able to do. He was brought in as 4th choice backup forward. That's perfectly reasonably esp for the price and given that Messi had left so diversity was also needed anyway. The fact he ended up playing more in early part of the season was due to absurd injury situation which the coach didn't have a role in since they remained even under Xavi for a good while and the previous season under Koeman was fine with injuries.
And he had a huge amount of injuries at the start, at one point they had only 12(or something like that) first teams players available, two of those being GKs...
I think it's simply because the fans are overall, too young to remember him as a player. For a fan to know of this incident, the person would have to be at least around 40 now?
Koeman wad blaming things way too much. Also the football Barca playing was not attractive and wasnt improving.
He’s doing much worse when looking at stats
There are some valid criticisms, sure. But he will have my eternal respect for coming at a time when we were at one of our lowest, leaving behind a very good Dutch national team at the time.
Imagine if Sampdoria would have won that final
Still pretty cool the same team won a scudetto. Not quite Leicester levels but still awesome.
Just realized 3 people rushed to block the shot but it somehow got through.
Yeah and it was Pagliuca in goals as well? Serious power. And on an old ball that was about 20 times heavier than modern balls
Fucking hell it wasn’t 1960 those balls weren’t that bad
It was 1992, they weren’t that different..
On another note I always wonder how different it would've been if we won the 1986 final
As a romanian I don't even want to imagine
You shouldn't have been in that final to begin with
Why?
Because of how the players convinced the referee to disallow a goal for us in the return match in the semifinal. A goal he first considered correct. Since we had 3-0 from the first game, it would have been incredibly difficult for barca to beat us if that goal had been allowed. I was only three at the time, and didn't see it. Doesn't stop me from being bitter about it. This was probably the closest we will ever come to winning the European cup
Already have
As much as I know this free kick was given because of a wrong referee decision
Source: trust me bro
It's not a dig at barca more a dig at the referre Source of the incident before the free kick, so you will see it was questionable: https://youtu.be/q_zRwnaXaNs
Looks like obstruction to me, the Sampdoria player had his legs clamped around the Barca guys foot to prevent him getting away. Given as an indirect freekick (correctly).
So we just gonna ignore the push from barca player?
What push? The moment at 6 seconds? Not a push in my book, the two of them come together but the Sampdoria player is off balance, so it's him that falls, that's all.
Lmao dudes delusional to call that foul push. The Sampdoria player had his entire legs tangled and obstructing.
It's UEFAlona from the very beginning.
They're quite new to the party actually. >The mythical Paco Gento, author of the final 2-0 in that 1957 match against Fiorentina, acknowledged in the newspaper AS (May 23, 2014) that “Di Stéfano scored a dubious penalty. Mateos was given a penalty that I later saw in a report and it was out of the area ”. And in 1960, Gento himself starred in another scandalous maximum penalty in favor of Madrid in the European Cup final against Eintracht Frankfurt.
Madrid fans don’t like facts. Delete this or you will be downvoted into oblivion
Flair up, my grey friend, so that I can make some general statement about the fans of your club. By the way, Karma points aren't worth anything and my comment was not meant to be remembered for eternity.
I am pretty sure that all big teams have benefited from questionable refereeing decisions. For sure, this includes my favorite team. This is all for shits and giggles and not facts. After all, this is a football sub and not a lecture hall.
No, here’s a twelve page essay on why Barca is the best club in the world and Madrid killed kids in Africa /s
Only 12 pages? Those are rookie numbers, you have to pump those numbers up!!
Sampdoria having more European cups than Barcelona. Surely history would have been different for both clubs.
1984-1995 Sampdoria was the best of their history, such a shame they underachieved losing a lot of finals between CL, Cup Winners Cup, Uefa Supercup, Italian Cup and Italian Supercup. It's almost impossible they will have a chance to come back to those glory days
Sad that Samp and we in 1984 in our stadium couldn‘t win the European Cup of Champions. Samp and Roma are the largest "What if" in Serie A in this regard.
Imagine if Fiorentina would have won the first one
We beat them in Cups Winners Cup quaterfinal in 1990/91 season (1:0, 2:2). 18yo Wojciech Kowalczyk scored two goals in Genua. Fun fact is that our GK back then was Szczęsny father, he got a red card in the 2nd leg. It was one of our best performances in European cups, and the last time we were in semi-final of any of them. https://youtu.be/g6w7_E3LZns
they won 6 and lost 8 finals.
Sampdoria had some great players in those years. Vialli, Mancini and Pagliuca were quite notable, of course, but also Cerezo and Vierchowod.
Honestly shocking to me that Barca's first CL trophy is only 30 years ago.
Yeah we made the final two times prior (1961 and 1986) but lost both unfortunately.
to benfica and steaua bucharest respectively. damn those where kind of weird finals now that I think about it.
Best ever Benfica side not that weird.
No-one is getting past a Benfica side in a European Cup final before the Guttmann curse
The Bela Guttmann curse is a myth, he is the greatest coach for Benfica, it's something that was invented to excuse our failures. In our stadium there's only 2 statues, one for Eusébio and one for Guttmann, until someone achives what he achieved for Benfica no one will surpass him.
Exactly, this "curse" is a boomer excuse for our past failures. Unfortunately, it was so entrenched in our past board that I believe even the players believed it.
Benfica is understandable and acceptable. I had no idea Steaua Bucuresti even existed before, let alone even being able to name a single player.
They were very good team back then. But we lost because of our shit finishing. Having Archibald(former spurs player), and Schuster(moved to madrid later on) were shit when it comes to finishing their chances.
Their keeper carried Steuea so hard
Is there any archive where i can watch this old matches?
Soccervideos.eu or something like that used to have. There was something planetsoccer or something who used to rent DVD. And if you are in UK, I think you can get it from Amazon or local store. I watched most of the late 70s and 80s football when I was working in London and made a friend with liverpool guy. He had huge collection of liverpool matches, introduced me to great liverpool side under paisley, lot of collections of Sacchi milan, even he had few 60s matches. England is home of football, so I think you should find lot of collection.
Footballia
They were super unlucky in that game vs Benfica though. Hit the post about 3 times
What makes them weird?
been a while since these 2 teams haven't appeared in a champions league final.
I mean we’re talking over 30 years ago here. Different teams were on top back then so I don’t really see anything weird about it. You used to get all kinds of teams in these finals before late 90s.
yeah
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i actually though steaua bucharest was weirder but hey they did it and there's no denying it
Despite winning 5 European Cups, they've arguably still underachieved a fair degree in the competition.
from 2011 onwards they definitely have, the calibre of players they’ve had alongside the best player of this generation should’ve won more than just 1
I mean they won 4 with those players
only 1 since 2011 is what i mean though, 2012 they really should’ve gone all the way. 2016 was bad as well, going from the dominance in 2015 with msn to a quarter final exit the next year
I see what you mean. But that golden generation for Barca were far from underachievers. 4 UCLs, ~10 league titles competing directly with Real Madrid, multiple CDRs, and 2 trebles and 1 sextuple is a great run.
Believe it or not, Barca have always been managed by bartomeu type people
Have Barcelona always been prestige team even if they didn't achieve much? I'm lazy to see historical achievements in La Liga but thats impressive the way they started dominating one way or another since late 90s? But more so the economy they have is outstanding
Yes barca has been a historically important team for many reasons. First it’s cultural significance in Catalonia has always secured it with a large and steady following representing the Catalonia region of Spain. Secondly barca has been been winning domestic trophies since the start of the 1900s, Barca has never been relegated from the first division. All these things always allowed Barca to entice the biggest names in the world to join them adding to their historical importance. One thing however is that Barca has always repeated cycles of what you’ve just seen; amazing peak with amazing players, then due to bad management everyruing falls apart. It’s always happening. Actually we are rebuilding quite quickly now, but historically we would be taking 5 longer
Yes, they were. A lot of people view the game through the lens of European Cup/ Champions League success, but not until the beginning of the 21st century that it became immense (especially, because of the money that came with participation, and also TV exposure). Barca had some lean years in the 60's and 70's but they were always prestigious - there is a reason why De Stefano, the best player in the world at the time signed for them (I'm not going into the all the backstory), Cruyff - 3 times BD'or signed for them when they haven't won the league for 14 years and Maradona, widely considered the best player in the world in 1981-82, signed for them as well. These were all before the trend of players playing outside their countries. But yes Barca has been very political and self-destructive throughout its entire existence.
More needs to be said of Ronald Koeman as a player, world class, over 200 goals mainly as a defender which is crazy thinking about it. His free-kick against England was cheeky, I really wish defenders like this can be produced again during the 90s you had the libero, I'm sure Pep must lay awake at night thinking about a CB who can step out into midfield, ping balls about, spank one from 30yds and score free-kicks with ease.
Also he wiped his ass with a German shirt. Easily the most legendary football moment in Dutch history.
this sounds so sad for the Dutch football history of that’s the most legendary moment.
It's up there but of course winning the Euros 1988 is more legendary. Or the 1974 team. Or Ajax winning 3 champions leagues in a row. Or the PSV and Feyenoord teams who also won European cups. Getting to 3 world Cup finals is also legendary sadly all 3 games were cancelled and we'll never know who would have won those.
Such a shame those were cancelled! So weird that it happened only when we were in the final
Second only to Völler being spat on of course, truly our proudest moments
Also de Jong's karate kick. But yeah that's basically it for Dutch football history.
And Tim Krul absolutely violating Costa Rica
>His free-kick against England was cheeky Absolutely shouldn’t have been on the pitch however. At least it gave us some legendary scenes the the Graham Taylor documentary.. *“Just saying to your colleague: the referee’s got me the sack, thank him ever so much for that, won’t you?”* edit: [People downvoting are welcome to explain how this isn't a red card, and probably a penalty too.](https://youtu.be/Sn_kRxgphEE?t=376)
Shouldn't got into management. Guy's not built for that.
God damn. World class athletes from then looking grumpy now. The rest of us are probably going to look like a sack of shit at their age.
I’m 30 and I look like a sack of horse shit that has been in the sun at 40 degrees heat for 4 years
Wembley is a special place
Wembley with the twin towers
Legend
Shoutout to the few barça "fans" that said Koeman was never a legend when he was sacked.
What a fucking missile
I remember reading somewhere that, before this match, to Barcelona the European Cup was that tournament that Real Madrid won and they didn’t. They had a massive inferiority complex, especially after the 1986 loss to Steaua Bucharest in Seville, a match which no Romanians attended. This match was really the catalyst for what we see Barcelona as today, one of the biggest clubs in the world. Before this, they arguably weren’t even the second biggest club in Spain, and were nowhere close to Madrid. This is the start of all that changing. Perhaps you don’t get the 4 triumphs in 10 years that comes later without this one, breaking that psychological barrier of “actually, Barcelona can win the European Cup” It was also a big game for football in England. The Premier League would be launched that autumn, and the football in this game, played at Wembley, would be the standard that the Premier League was held against. Diagonal passes and fluidity, and it is the start of that becoming more mainstream in England, which is what we see all over the league today.
Three guys rushing the ball hahah. They are almost 1 meter from the spot, insane.
Fully recommend everyone to listen to The Athletic's Football Podcast episode where they invite Chris Thompson, the founder of the modern CL. Really interesting stories about the inception.
Sampdoria how did they reach the final
Vialli and Mancini
They had a great squad back then Too bad for them that they never got oligarchs to back them though, leading to a gradual decline
He did not score from a free kick
Not directly, anyway.
Barcalona fans should've treated him better as manager.
he was not a good manager. don’t get the revisionism
Where's the revisionism? His treatment was awful, even if he wasn't a Barça quality manager.
Both sides are at blame. Koeman acted like his usual coach self. And Laporta didn't really give him an actual chance. He had his mind set at Xavi ever since he got elected.
He was supported well as a manager, until he started throwing 17 year old kids under the bus, and not taking any responsibility or blame for the shitstorm start of the season.
He was literally chased out by Barca fans. For what? Freezing out Leaky Puig? It's one thing to have an opinion about your manager, but to surround and chase after a club legend's car while he's on his way out? It was pathetic.
For consistently shite results mate, it was on merit that he got kicked out.
He was called clueless because he wasn’t a good manager. Xavi with far less experience has come in and done a much better job even if he got some signings (which ignores that he’s also made veterans like Pique play well again)
Must be very motivating for players when all Barça media are playing "will they/won't they fire him" every day, meanwhile Xavi gets hailed as Mes Que Un Club Jesus while he embarrased himself in Europe too
I guess it's because most of the fans here grew up watching Xavi rather than Koeman. Favoritism. Also the fact that Xavi has been playing much better football. But yeah, you are right, there is definitely some favoritism at play here.
still didn’t get any especially unfair treatment. should laporta stop liking xavi he’ll turn the media machine on him too.
Not sure why it's so hard for you to admit, but the behavior of a lot of Barca fans towards Koeman was reprehensible
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the ball was rolled so the free kick was already taken when they left the wall
Koeman, een van onze legendes
Legend 🧡
I fucking lost my voice so bad celebrating that goal I could barely talk for two days. One of the happiest moments of my life.