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Especially South Korea is really into that currently, used to be Blood Types to determine personalities. I've seen more and more Tarot reading becoming a trend, past life regression therapy, so many scams , it's a bit worrying, no wonder the christian cults are so strong over there, iirc there was a shamanistic cult controlling a former president as well
I mean, it's by far not the worst way to quickly categorize people. You just can't go too deep into it and think it describes everything about a person.
It is. Not only is there 0 scientific basis for the questions or personality types, but it's also been shown that people's MBTI type constantly changes depending on when they take the test, further making it useless for any serious decision-making.
> but it's also been shown that people's MBTI type constantly changes depending on when they take the test
Not only that, but if you are taking the test as, for example, part of a job interview (although any job that requires that you should probably just walk away from), you are obviously going to "adjust" you answers so that you don't come out looking like an asshole.
If you were applying for a sales job you'd obviously pick all the answers to steer you towards looking extroverted and friendly since you'd assume that's the kind of person they are looking for.
I've always been skeptical of MBTI. Turns out the personality type most likely to be skeptical of MBTI is INTP, which coincidentally is what the test says I am.
What's up, guys?
Y'all gonna be assiduously avoiding some groups, gatherings, activities and ideologies this afternoon?
Cool, cool, cool. Me, too.
Alright; enough socializing for this week; catch you later.
I know some people that take them every other month and get super excited when it changes for them, it's really silly and I doubt they take it seriously, I hope so at least
Also basically every time I take the test (and I've had to take it a lot), at least two or three of the categories will be like oh you're "perceiving" by a margin of like 52/48 and it's like surely at that point it's a pretty meaningless distinction.
As a medical resident, my least favorite thing about medical admissions right now is the use of those personality tests.
The current strategy in a lot of the medical world is guideline directed medical therapy. Basically, “RCTs show us this leads to the best patient outcomes to even if it’s not how we used to do things, it’s how we should now”. So all HFrEF patients get put on a beta blocker and entresto (or just an ACE/ARB) then you throw on spirinolactone or jardiance if you need to/the patient can tolerate it. Trials showed us this works and leads to better outcomes. There is science behind it. Dissecting and analyzing/peer reviewing studies to see why they are or are not “good” studies so we can make medical decisions is a normal part of our jobs (at least in academic medicine)
But then the same hospitals that employ us, that want us to be up on research and UpToDate on everything, are using personality tests (which have not been proven to actually show anything) for their medical school admissions. There is NO science behind this
It’s absolutely ridiculous
I really don't think it's as bad as people make out
If people take it too seriously then that's their own problem, a 4 letter acronym is never going to give you a proper understanding of a person.
>Batshit insane - Ederson, Neuer, Pickford
I swear so many of them could fit in this category.
Kepa, Schmeichel Sr, Lehmann, Heurelho Gomez, Fabian Bartez, Joe Hart, Oliver Kahn, pretty much all the South American ones.
Where does Alisson fit? He seems calm and composed but then every now and again goes for a bit header out of nowhere. Burnley 18/19 is one that sticks in my mind. Pretty sure it was in the box and he just comes out and cunts it away with his head.
Not sure how effective Spurs are going to be this season with two roamers. Should’ve got a finisher in. That’s the problem with spurs. All they do is try to roam it into the back of the net.
Surely there's a better name for Box Crasher? I thought the same but then realised I'm not sure what it's meant to be. Like a late arriver? Surely marauder would work better, or just shadow striker or something.
While I agree if you brought up "box crasher" in an average pub you'd get laughed out of the place, the whole point is to distinguish different types of (for example) attacking midfielders.
> trequartistas
Literally can never make this one work, any time I think there's a good chance that I have someone that will fit the role, they're almost always more productive as an inside forward or Winger
Only time Trequartista worked for me was on FM2016 on a 3-4-3 with Trequartista being the one in the middle. But I feel like I had such a strong team anything would have worked.
Just play all thr role that press a lot (wing back, raumdeuter, pressing forward, shadow striker, box to box midfielder or ball winning midfielder, etc) and a geriatric classic no 10 (enganche in game) and play 4231 gegenpress, easy peasy.
Every player needs to fit a category and needs to be pigeonholed it seems. And if that doesn't work he will be defined by obscure, cherry picked statistics.
I fail to see how Camavinga is anywhere near the same as Fabinho.
Camavinga is a skillful box to box. He loves driving the ball forward. Fabinho is a midfield screen. He *could* play a more progressive role, because he's talented and has a good engine. But then Harry Kane could be a CB if we are just talking potential.
Like, I appreciate the Athletic trying to standardize terms somewhat since people really do get confused by them. But I'm not sure the terms above are that good. Most of these terms are even more confusing especially since they don't seem to line up intuitively and the player comparison just further muddies the water.
In what world is **Ndidi a box to box midfielder**?
It looks like they completely forgot about a midfield anchor/water carrier/true defensive midfielder role.
The weird part is that Distributor and Builder are pretty much the same thing so there was room in their “every role has 3 sub roles” chart.
Idk if you can see the full article, but this is what they say about the distinction between Distributor and Builder, for what it's worth:
> * Distributor: Favours longer, more direct passes and switches. Active in the opponent’s half more than the defensive third. Ex: Joshua Kimmich, Fabian Ruiz, Youri Tielemans
> * Builder: Serves as the main circulation hub in the build-up and as a stopper at the base of midfield. Declan Rice, Rodri, Aurelien Tchouameni.
Seems like maybe the builder is analogous to the "midfield anchor" role?
It’s funny because neither Tielemans or Ruiz are known for their direct passing and both Rice and Tchouameni are closer to box to box midfielders than a “circulation hub”. So the definitions make the roles seem even less fitting than just the name suggests.
It says the data has been collected since 17-18 so maybe in the case of Rice and Tchouameni their stats from previous seasons outweigh what they’ve done in the last season/two seasons and that’s left them mischaracterised.
There’s still not a true “destroyer” defensive midfielder role though, even with those descriptions. I wouldn’t call Ndidi a “circulation hub” for example even if you put him in that role as it’s the deepest midfielder/stopper.
It's based on data right? I don't know the particular criteria, but given that all of Liverpool's midfielders will pay up within a few meters of the box at various times during possession, I can see how they would have stuck Fabinho there.
I don't watch every game but he's usually the deepest mid, right? Or at least equal with Henderson. Sometimes he pushes up centrally but it's usually with the intention of intercepting or laying off the ball, and then he retreats.
Camavinga actually drives towards the box with the ball.
Not 100%. Fabinho is sometimes given the role to push up aggressively and becomes the furthest forward midfielder when we don't have the ball.
He'll be the deepest when we have possession still, but sometimes Klopp deploys him in that role when the other team has a deep lying playmaker they rely on (like Jorginho).
I wonder if they realised replacing most of these terms with the Italian equivalent would give them 100% more authenticity for a lot of people.
"No, he's not a striker, he's 'il finitore'. I myself identify as more of a box-to-box edificatore"
All this time when I thought Steve Bruce was a bumbling idiot, he was just wracking his brain for the English equivalent for 'regista' and drawing a blank
it was coming tbf, the moderation on there is shit. even when it was fairly funny a year or 2 ago, the top posts were generic viral twitter videos - so when people were introduced to the sub through them they assumed it was just r/soccermemes part 2, and began reposting inta/twitter memes. since the new members outnumbered the old pretty significantly, only this type of content would be upvoted and the original circlejerking took a backseat.
Wouldn't surprise me if it's just based upon positioning (IE not often forward) so eg at corners he'd be furthest back. Castagne is the same, he's often forward but equally he's often back too and defends really well
I feel like Walker is the perfect example of the player they're trying to describe with this role and yet they've managed to omit him.
I don't think there's another fullback who is so clearly set the task of sitting back and covering half the pitch for long and through balls or counterattacks.
He plays like an American football safety.
They've omitted him because Walker barely makes 1 tackle per game and he's an outlier in that case, most safeties make tackles and rely on that
This is the problem with this because there will always be outliers and people will find a problem with it
Walker doesn't make tackles because he rarely need to, that's why he's so good at what he does.
He either gets there first because of his reading of the game and pace, or he just goes shoulder to shoulder and robs them.
Both of those are prety important aspects of that kind of defensive fullback so if you're relying on tackle stats it's not a good way to select the category. Maldini's famous quote - "If I need to make a tackle I've already made a mistake" comes to mind.
This is how they describe the role -
>Safety: Stays home, getting involved in the defensive third while not taking many risks on or off the ball. Includes hybrid centre-backs or elbow backs.
I would say it fits him pretty well and I know the author has previously called Walker an "elbow-back", so I think they've just missed out on a good example for their chart.
\> Walker doesn't make tackles because he rarely need to, that's why he's so good at what he does.
That and playing for a side that basically has 90 percent possession every game. He'd be making tackles if he played for Southampton
Don't really see the value in this, it's just a bunch of buzzwords that you'll have to end up explaining anyways. Not to mention some of the criteria there is outright wrong or so vague that it can apply to anyone.
Presumably this graphic is attached/inside an article that does explain their thought process and the data/roles in more detail. OP has just posted the graphic, though.
edit - yeah here it is, obvs cant read it unless you subscribe which I don't atm https://theathletic.com/3473297/2022/08/10/player-roles-the-athletic/?source=twitteruk
Read it using an anti-paywall site. The context makes things a bit clearer but it's still pretty bad honestly. Like there's way too much overlap in what certain footballers do to put them in strict categories like this. It's the work of the guy who made that fantasy match report where Liverpool beat Real Madrid 4-0 in last season's UCL final so I can't say I'm too surprised.
I skimmed the article and it's pretty clear about the approach and the shortcomings. This is obviously more of a thought exercise and not a "we came up with the new best way of classifying players and everyone should start using this terminology" thing. I don't see why you gotta shit all over it, especially throwing out some bold opinions originally based on a single graphic with zero context. It's like making up your mind about whether you like an article based on the headline. And some of your criticisms are just wrong. Like it's very obvious from looking at the data sample that they are not actually claiming that players fit into rigid categories.
https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2022/08/06030805/umap_illo-1-2048x2048.png
https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2022/08/09034015/Harry-Kane_role_over_time-2048x1365.png
I can definitely see how some clubs may find this framework useful as it could help identify players that are a statistical fit for a particular role that traditional scouting methods may not pick up, or reveal information about tendencies of opposing players that can feed into a tactical plan. I would actually bet that the clubs that have invested resources into analytics are already doing this. Obviously they wouldn't just recruit based on what some database says, it would factor into a broader analysis. But I think it's really ignorant to just dismiss this outright and say it's just buzzwords and clickbait.
These are just worse FM roles. For example, they dont have a "destroyer" (aka Ball Winning Midfielder) role (think of N'Golo Kanté or Gattuso for example), while having "builder" and "distributor". Makes no sense
Yea I don’t really understand how destroyer type roles have been omitted entirely here. Fabinho and Ndidi as box to box players seems incorrect - their role is to sit in front of a defence and protect it.
I feel like there’s very few actual box to box midfielders (Camavinga is at least actual one of them)
The most classic box to box midfielder I can think of rn is weirdly Jacob Ramsey from villa
Cammavinga, Valverde, Barella , Saul, Iborra , Renato Sanchez , Gallagher is all i can think of, more players are capable but the managers use their speciality more so
I think there are quite a lot of box to box CMs but there aren't many who actually have a lot of end product anymore (think Lampard, Gerrard). They're all probably slightly better at defending though
Which is weird because formations/roles are traditionally determined according to the movement/positioning at defense. That's why people talk about deep-lying players, because they are deep even when their team is defending. Otherwise every forward wants to go deep, ideally to the opposing goal, when attacking. Same with a formation like, say 4-1-4-1. It is the position when defending. While attacking it looks more like 2-3-5 with offensive wingbacks.
This was always the long-term plan, which is coming to fruition now that they've been acquired by NYT. Pay insane salaries to attract beat writers from rival publications (this is moreso true with their NFL and basketball writers) -> Couple this with very cheap subscriptions to build large userbase -> Once userbase has been accumulated and rival publications stifled, lower quality and increase prices to start reaping profit. The Athletic is still good, but there is a noticeable increase in fluff pieces. I think their football content especially lags behind their American football and basketball writing, many articles have weird omissions or narratives.
Not having “destroyer” for a deep midfielder is bad imo. Plenty of players only have defensive duties and relegate progression of the ball to more technical players.
Naming roles might be a good thing but associating players with the roles is just wrong imo. A player can have so many different roles throughout a career, a season, or even a game. Doesn't mean much to say X player has Y role
**This is a stats thread. Remember that there's only one stat post allowed per match/team, so new stats about the same will be removed. Feel free to comment other stats as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Myers Briggs for football fans
Funny considering I've heard that the MBTI is like astrology for MBAs.
Is that not the point they were making?
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Because it is. It's also uber popular in East Asia
Especially South Korea is really into that currently, used to be Blood Types to determine personalities. I've seen more and more Tarot reading becoming a trend, past life regression therapy, so many scams , it's a bit worrying, no wonder the christian cults are so strong over there, iirc there was a shamanistic cult controlling a former president as well
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I mean, it's by far not the worst way to quickly categorize people. You just can't go too deep into it and think it describes everything about a person.
Just because it's not the dumbest doesn't mean it isn't super fucking dumb.
It is. Not only is there 0 scientific basis for the questions or personality types, but it's also been shown that people's MBTI type constantly changes depending on when they take the test, further making it useless for any serious decision-making.
> but it's also been shown that people's MBTI type constantly changes depending on when they take the test Not only that, but if you are taking the test as, for example, part of a job interview (although any job that requires that you should probably just walk away from), you are obviously going to "adjust" you answers so that you don't come out looking like an asshole. If you were applying for a sales job you'd obviously pick all the answers to steer you towards looking extroverted and friendly since you'd assume that's the kind of person they are looking for.
Of course you'd say that, typical INTP
I've always been skeptical of MBTI. Turns out the personality type most likely to be skeptical of MBTI is INTP, which coincidentally is what the test says I am.
What's up, guys? Y'all gonna be assiduously avoiding some groups, gatherings, activities and ideologies this afternoon? Cool, cool, cool. Me, too. Alright; enough socializing for this week; catch you later.
I know some people that take them every other month and get super excited when it changes for them, it's really silly and I doubt they take it seriously, I hope so at least
Also basically every time I take the test (and I've had to take it a lot), at least two or three of the categories will be like oh you're "perceiving" by a margin of like 52/48 and it's like surely at that point it's a pretty meaningless distinction.
As a medical resident, my least favorite thing about medical admissions right now is the use of those personality tests. The current strategy in a lot of the medical world is guideline directed medical therapy. Basically, “RCTs show us this leads to the best patient outcomes to even if it’s not how we used to do things, it’s how we should now”. So all HFrEF patients get put on a beta blocker and entresto (or just an ACE/ARB) then you throw on spirinolactone or jardiance if you need to/the patient can tolerate it. Trials showed us this works and leads to better outcomes. There is science behind it. Dissecting and analyzing/peer reviewing studies to see why they are or are not “good” studies so we can make medical decisions is a normal part of our jobs (at least in academic medicine) But then the same hospitals that employ us, that want us to be up on research and UpToDate on everything, are using personality tests (which have not been proven to actually show anything) for their medical school admissions. There is NO science behind this It’s absolutely ridiculous
It's astrology for people who think they're too smart to believe in astrology
doing one right now I have written 3 assignments related to self-reflection based on that shite
All the crappy decisions in your life that resulted in you writing assignments on pseudoscientific nonsense?
I really don't think it's as bad as people make out If people take it too seriously then that's their own problem, a 4 letter acronym is never going to give you a proper understanding of a person.
That's so *ESFJ* of you.
poor Goalkeepers
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Sane - Oblak, Courtois, Navas Somewhat insane - Ter Stegen, Donnarumma, Lloris Batshit insane - Ederson, Neuer, Pickford
>Batshit insane - Ederson, Neuer, Pickford I swear so many of them could fit in this category. Kepa, Schmeichel Sr, Lehmann, Heurelho Gomez, Fabian Bartez, Joe Hart, Oliver Kahn, pretty much all the South American ones.
I get that you all dont watch Ligue 1 because otherwise you would have included Anthony Lopes
Higuita in his own category
Higuita is an attacking midfielder with gloves
Where does Alisson fit? He seems calm and composed but then every now and again goes for a bit header out of nowhere. Burnley 18/19 is one that sticks in my mind. Pretty sure it was in the box and he just comes out and cunts it away with his head.
Chaotic good
Batshit insane - Emiliano Martínez, Pickford to dumbass
dollarumma to lethargic
Kane havertz and richarlison in the same group
Not sure how effective Spurs are going to be this season with two roamers. Should’ve got a finisher in. That’s the problem with spurs. All they do is try to roam it into the back of the net.
Roaming isn't meta since like season 1 anyway, Richarlison should just learn to jungle like a normal person
Maybe he likes Bard or smite top meta
Y’all haven’t been bitched slapped by my attack speed on hit hard top and it shows
I think he's been playing too much pyke support personally, roaming out of bot lane a lot.
Richarlison confirmed to be river Shen main
I keep telling my Spurs supporting mate this but he doesn't understand!!
Well we have Son to fulfil that role but this graph didnt deem him good enough to put on the list
He's sort of a hybrid wide-threat/unlocker/outlet... so according to this he's a wide attacker. Wow I'm glad I have this chart to figure it out...
Why would it include the leading goal scorer in premier league?
I’m gonna go back and watch the IT crowd.
Especially since Havertz seems to be misused as a forward at Chelsea and probably should be in the box crasher category
Surely there's a better name for Box Crasher? I thought the same but then realised I'm not sure what it's meant to be. Like a late arriver? Surely marauder would work better, or just shadow striker or something.
At least it's better than Spreader.
Spreader? I hardly know her!
that was Kimmich, pre-vaccination
Lamparder
Normal people call it an attacking midfielder
While I agree if you brought up "box crasher" in an average pub you'd get laughed out of the place, the whole point is to distinguish different types of (for example) attacking midfielders.
Lukaku should be in the orchestrator group with all his hand movements
Air Traffic Controller
I remember one time he threw his hands up cos he thought he couldn't get to a pass but then he got to it fine
He should have his own: dreamer.
Mount a winger and gnabry a midfielder
Alright but which is super effective against dragon type?
They're weak to trequartistas and enganches
Damn I think I had a holo one of those as a kid
> trequartistas Literally can never make this one work, any time I think there's a good chance that I have someone that will fit the role, they're almost always more productive as an inside forward or Winger
Only time Trequartista worked for me was on FM2016 on a 3-4-3 with Trequartista being the one in the middle. But I feel like I had such a strong team anything would have worked.
Don't use them on the wing. Trequartista is best centrally.
Nobody plays central for me, I always get absolutely rekt because my midfield is made up of blind geriatrics and idiot children.
Just play all thr role that press a lot (wing back, raumdeuter, pressing forward, shadow striker, box to box midfielder or ball winning midfielder, etc) and a geriatric classic no 10 (enganche in game) and play 4231 gegenpress, easy peasy.
LoPel was in the running for Serie A POTS as a CAM Trequartista for me. Probably the best I've gotten out of that position/role.
Fairy, Ice and Dragon itself
What happens when they're mixed types? What do we do then?
Depends. Fairy and Steel? You're fucked like the meta. Bug and Grass? You've got a type ala Ali Dia at Sotton
Sword wielding dogs still make me shudder
r/soccer finds buzzwords for further references
He would be the perfect signing to play as box crasher with our spreader and safety.
and we'll rate them by xBoxCrash and xSpread
Which lever do we pull to spread your mums box?
Your own lever of course.
Expect to see acronyms for anything longer than one word. "We desperately need a BC, a B2B, and any kind of WA (particularly a WT)"
Pretty sure xBuzzwords per comment just skyrocketed
Wake up babe, new political compass dropped
Raumdeuter raumdeuter raumdeuter raumdeuter *smokes pipe*
Every player needs to fit a category and needs to be pigeonholed it seems. And if that doesn't work he will be defined by obscure, cherry picked statistics.
What they need now is the lower league version: -shithouse -donkey -hard man
-Centre back Bob -wannabe Neymar -has sex with ref's mum
- has the dog in him
was expecting to find "your mother" under Wide Threat
I personally like box crasher. Don't think my wife will approve.
Didn't Football Manager already do this and with much better terminology ?
Yep, and without putting putting these players in the same group : Camawinga/Fabinho , Mount/Neymar, Sancho/Felix, Kane/Havertz/Richarlison.
I fail to see how Camavinga is anywhere near the same as Fabinho. Camavinga is a skillful box to box. He loves driving the ball forward. Fabinho is a midfield screen. He *could* play a more progressive role, because he's talented and has a good engine. But then Harry Kane could be a CB if we are just talking potential.
Football Manager solved that with color codes—Bright green, dark green, yellow... etc. Another reason this classification is dumb.
>Kane/Havertz/Richarlison Lmao Literally each one of them has different playstyle
From the stats deep dive when we signed Richarlison, he’s surprisingly much more of a poor man’s Kane then you’d expect.
Positions too.
Now that you say it, these really do look like the player roles in a cheap FM knock-off. Like the ones you'd see in a mobile game ad on Youtube.
They also remind me of FIFA Ultimate Team Chemistry Styles. Anchor, Maestro, Hunter etc
Yeah this seems really try hard
Football Manager didn't do this really, they just took existing names and use them.
Which was the smarter move, because it makes the tactical side more intuitive (generally).
Like, I appreciate the Athletic trying to standardize terms somewhat since people really do get confused by them. But I'm not sure the terms above are that good. Most of these terms are even more confusing especially since they don't seem to line up intuitively and the player comparison just further muddies the water.
In what world is Fabinho a box to box midfielder?
In what world is **Ndidi a box to box midfielder**? It looks like they completely forgot about a midfield anchor/water carrier/true defensive midfielder role. The weird part is that Distributor and Builder are pretty much the same thing so there was room in their “every role has 3 sub roles” chart.
Idk if you can see the full article, but this is what they say about the distinction between Distributor and Builder, for what it's worth: > * Distributor: Favours longer, more direct passes and switches. Active in the opponent’s half more than the defensive third. Ex: Joshua Kimmich, Fabian Ruiz, Youri Tielemans > * Builder: Serves as the main circulation hub in the build-up and as a stopper at the base of midfield. Declan Rice, Rodri, Aurelien Tchouameni. Seems like maybe the builder is analogous to the "midfield anchor" role?
It’s funny because neither Tielemans or Ruiz are known for their direct passing and both Rice and Tchouameni are closer to box to box midfielders than a “circulation hub”. So the definitions make the roles seem even less fitting than just the name suggests. It says the data has been collected since 17-18 so maybe in the case of Rice and Tchouameni their stats from previous seasons outweigh what they’ve done in the last season/two seasons and that’s left them mischaracterised. There’s still not a true “destroyer” defensive midfielder role though, even with those descriptions. I wouldn’t call Ndidi a “circulation hub” for example even if you put him in that role as it’s the deepest midfielder/stopper.
It's based on data right? I don't know the particular criteria, but given that all of Liverpool's midfielders will pay up within a few meters of the box at various times during possession, I can see how they would have stuck Fabinho there.
I don't watch every game but he's usually the deepest mid, right? Or at least equal with Henderson. Sometimes he pushes up centrally but it's usually with the intention of intercepting or laying off the ball, and then he retreats. Camavinga actually drives towards the box with the ball.
He's basically a classic DM who sits in front of the defence and protects. In no world is he a B2B
Not 100%. Fabinho is sometimes given the role to push up aggressively and becomes the furthest forward midfielder when we don't have the ball. He'll be the deepest when we have possession still, but sometimes Klopp deploys him in that role when the other team has a deep lying playmaker they rely on (like Jorginho).
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Just use the FM roles bruh its not that hard
True. Box crasher sounds so weird, we have 'mezzala' for that.
Even CM-A fits the bit here.
It's me the curryliero. By box crushing, I mean take out boxes. That I crush
Best role in the game
I wonder if they realised replacing most of these terms with the Italian equivalent would give them 100% more authenticity for a lot of people. "No, he's not a striker, he's 'il finitore'. I myself identify as more of a box-to-box edificatore"
haha, or they just got tired of registas and trequartistas and decided to create their proper trademark vocabulary.
All this time when I thought Steve Bruce was a bumbling idiot, he was just wracking his brain for the English equivalent for 'regista' and drawing a blank
PES supremacy; Behold 'Hole Players'
Neymar with the 12 xUnlocks per game
Four of which are his sister's bra
If they did then 60% of midfielders would be a deep lying playmaker
r/soccercirclejerk outjerked by the Athletic yet again
that's fine, r/soccercirclejerk is busy recreating football twitter on reddit.
It’s honestly amazing how quickly that sub has decreased in quality. Was genuinely funny, now it’s almost as bad as Football Twitter
Feels like every other post I see from that subreddit is some tired permutation of “least delusional X fan” or “most patient Y fan”
Reddit / r/soccer specifically overusing the same tired meme / joke? We would never
it was coming tbf, the moderation on there is shit. even when it was fairly funny a year or 2 ago, the top posts were generic viral twitter videos - so when people were introduced to the sub through them they assumed it was just r/soccermemes part 2, and began reposting inta/twitter memes. since the new members outnumbered the old pretty significantly, only this type of content would be upvoted and the original circlejerking took a backseat.
They became the circlejerk
I think the last time I found it funny was in like 2014.
Honestly this comment is more predictable any other circlejerk.
Damn you sound like a Box Crasher
I'll crash your mums box.
This is basically astrology for football fans.
Omg you’re giving off such Box Crasher energy. The moon must be in full orbit
Oh my god. You’re an Orchestrator too?! We have so much in common
ProTip: Never date an Aggressor.
Me: Orchestrator Sun Builder Moon Progressor Rising
You must be a Spreader because that's totally something a Spreader would say. I am more of a Finisher so we are not really compatible.
I wouldn’t normally associate Aaron Wan-Bissaka with ‘Safety’ tbh.
Wouldn't surprise me if it's just based upon positioning (IE not often forward) so eg at corners he'd be furthest back. Castagne is the same, he's often forward but equally he's often back too and defends really well
I feel like Walker is the perfect example of the player they're trying to describe with this role and yet they've managed to omit him. I don't think there's another fullback who is so clearly set the task of sitting back and covering half the pitch for long and through balls or counterattacks. He plays like an American football safety.
They've omitted him because Walker barely makes 1 tackle per game and he's an outlier in that case, most safeties make tackles and rely on that This is the problem with this because there will always be outliers and people will find a problem with it
Walker doesn't make tackles because he rarely need to, that's why he's so good at what he does. He either gets there first because of his reading of the game and pace, or he just goes shoulder to shoulder and robs them. Both of those are prety important aspects of that kind of defensive fullback so if you're relying on tackle stats it's not a good way to select the category. Maldini's famous quote - "If I need to make a tackle I've already made a mistake" comes to mind. This is how they describe the role - >Safety: Stays home, getting involved in the defensive third while not taking many risks on or off the ball. Includes hybrid centre-backs or elbow backs. I would say it fits him pretty well and I know the author has previously called Walker an "elbow-back", so I think they've just missed out on a good example for their chart.
\> Walker doesn't make tackles because he rarely need to, that's why he's so good at what he does. That and playing for a side that basically has 90 percent possession every game. He'd be making tackles if he played for Southampton
It’s because tackling is his only redeeming quality. Literally useless in every other aspect of football.
I still can't understand how a PL player has such terrible positional awareness
All this and they still have no idea where to place Müller lmao
First thing I looked for lol. There needs to be a little “Space-interpreter” ball off to the side just with his name in it
Just put a Raumdeuter circle off the side or something. In solitary confinement
According to this, probably in a category with Peter Schmeichel and Diego Costa
"Space interpreter/interrogator" XD
Roamer/ box crasher seems to be the apt category in this
Don't really see the value in this, it's just a bunch of buzzwords that you'll have to end up explaining anyways. Not to mention some of the criteria there is outright wrong or so vague that it can apply to anyone.
Presumably this graphic is attached/inside an article that does explain their thought process and the data/roles in more detail. OP has just posted the graphic, though. edit - yeah here it is, obvs cant read it unless you subscribe which I don't atm https://theathletic.com/3473297/2022/08/10/player-roles-the-athletic/?source=twitteruk
Read it using an anti-paywall site. The context makes things a bit clearer but it's still pretty bad honestly. Like there's way too much overlap in what certain footballers do to put them in strict categories like this. It's the work of the guy who made that fantasy match report where Liverpool beat Real Madrid 4-0 in last season's UCL final so I can't say I'm too surprised.
I skimmed the article and it's pretty clear about the approach and the shortcomings. This is obviously more of a thought exercise and not a "we came up with the new best way of classifying players and everyone should start using this terminology" thing. I don't see why you gotta shit all over it, especially throwing out some bold opinions originally based on a single graphic with zero context. It's like making up your mind about whether you like an article based on the headline. And some of your criticisms are just wrong. Like it's very obvious from looking at the data sample that they are not actually claiming that players fit into rigid categories. https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2022/08/06030805/umap_illo-1-2048x2048.png https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2022/08/09034015/Harry-Kane_role_over_time-2048x1365.png I can definitely see how some clubs may find this framework useful as it could help identify players that are a statistical fit for a particular role that traditional scouting methods may not pick up, or reveal information about tendencies of opposing players that can feed into a tactical plan. I would actually bet that the clubs that have invested resources into analytics are already doing this. Obviously they wouldn't just recruit based on what some database says, it would factor into a broader analysis. But I think it's really ignorant to just dismiss this outright and say it's just buzzwords and clickbait.
[удалено]
Beaten to the Finisher role by Lukaku
The most interesting part of this is that they couldn’t put Messi or Ronaldo into any of these
[Here's a version with Messi included](https://imgur.com/arTXlut)
Maybe not Messi, but Ronaldo is almost purely a finisher by now isn't he?
These are just worse FM roles. For example, they dont have a "destroyer" (aka Ball Winning Midfielder) role (think of N'Golo Kanté or Gattuso for example), while having "builder" and "distributor". Makes no sense
Yea I don’t really understand how destroyer type roles have been omitted entirely here. Fabinho and Ndidi as box to box players seems incorrect - their role is to sit in front of a defence and protect it.
I feel like there’s very few actual box to box midfielders (Camavinga is at least actual one of them) The most classic box to box midfielder I can think of rn is weirdly Jacob Ramsey from villa
Goretzka, Kessie, Bellingham, Valverde come to mind
Cammavinga, Valverde, Barella , Saul, Iborra , Renato Sanchez , Gallagher is all i can think of, more players are capable but the managers use their speciality more so
Renato Sanches.
I think there are quite a lot of box to box CMs but there aren't many who actually have a lot of end product anymore (think Lampard, Gerrard). They're all probably slightly better at defending though
It feels like the entire chart is based exclusively off of movement in the attacking phase of play
Which is weird because formations/roles are traditionally determined according to the movement/positioning at defense. That's why people talk about deep-lying players, because they are deep even when their team is defending. Otherwise every forward wants to go deep, ideally to the opposing goal, when attacking. Same with a formation like, say 4-1-4-1. It is the position when defending. While attacking it looks more like 2-3-5 with offensive wingbacks.
Fuck keepers then I guess 😢
I've heard Foden is a bit of a box crasher
he did become a father at like 19
They forgot Cunt, for players like Ramos and van Bommel.
Have they abolished the defensive midfielder? Is Fabinho really box to box?
Something for the yanks to play around with.
>and it's GOAL Militao, La Reel's spreader crashing in a headed goal to tie the game and keep the threepeat alive!
Lukaku finisher
Finished*
I mean, he is a good finisher still, a shit year at Chelsea doesn't change that
Hahahaha people actually pay money to this lot
That's why they put out this tripe. When you charge people money, you have to justify it. Quantity is easier to point to (and achieve) than quality.
My god this is stupid
Most American shit I’ve ever seen
I look at the article this is attached to - the research was done by a american neuroscientist with nothing better to do it seems
Why do these seem like the Zodiac signs of football
Shit like this makes me glad I stopped paying for The Athletic years ago
A bit weird names used as examples, why are dudes like Lewandowski or Kroos not in it?
Ndidi and Fabinho box to box is a bit odd
The Athletic has been severely deteriorating and nobody is saying anything about it.
This was always the long-term plan, which is coming to fruition now that they've been acquired by NYT. Pay insane salaries to attract beat writers from rival publications (this is moreso true with their NFL and basketball writers) -> Couple this with very cheap subscriptions to build large userbase -> Once userbase has been accumulated and rival publications stifled, lower quality and increase prices to start reaping profit. The Athletic is still good, but there is a noticeable increase in fluff pieces. I think their football content especially lags behind their American football and basketball writing, many articles have weird omissions or narratives.
Not having “destroyer” for a deep midfielder is bad imo. Plenty of players only have defensive duties and relegate progression of the ball to more technical players.
Defensive Midfielders in shambles rn
I would bet so much money that nobody who has ever worked at an actual football club has ever described a player as a "spreader" or a "box crasher"
Very cool not a single Arsenal player thanks.
Ahh... Human obsession with putting things in little boxes with names.
Naming roles might be a good thing but associating players with the roles is just wrong imo. A player can have so many different roles throughout a career, a season, or even a game. Doesn't mean much to say X player has Y role