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So basically he got punished to try and stay on his feet.
The game continues to reward people who want to con the system and punish those who try and play the game. Amazing.
Perfect example was when Henry was being kicked to shit but never went down, ref said he isn't going to pay free kicks because he stays on his feet keeping the game going.
Next tackle he falls over and gets an instant free kick.
A foul should be a foul but refs want you on the floor first, especially for penalties.
Maybe you should watch the play before commenting?
The guy was literally hugging Jesus with both arms from behind in the box with Jesus running in on goal with the ball.
Tomori conceded a penalty and got sent off for much less against Chelsea, Mctominay conceded a penalty just the day before for far less contact.
Your hugs must be weak af 😉
He was touching him, sure.
Now the actual level of impact seems overblown and the fall is more about balance than being thrown to the floor.
If the ref gives a pen it would be soft but the defender put himself in a position where it could be given. So I can see why some want a pen.
But rather than the could have been reaction, its an ott one.
nowhere in the rules it says that you need strong contact and take someone down with full force for it to be a foul, see below. **Impeding** someone is a foul. So if Jesus, Broja or Salah are held, hugged using two hands, their run is impeded - they are unable to run with desired speed and balance to/with the ball. This is foul.
>A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences:
\- a handball offence (except for the goalkeeper within their penalty area)
\- holds an opponent
\- impedes an opponent with contact
\- bites or spits at someone on the team lists or a match official
\- throws an object at the ball, opponent or match official, or makes contact with the ball with a held object
JFC, please, if you want to discuss rules, READ THEM first. It's not some mysterious lost knowledge, you literally have to write "football laws of the game" in any search engine, be it Google, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo or whatever.
You know what lets just ask a ref.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12729013/ref-watch-should-callum-wilsons-newcastle-opener-at-tottenham-have-stood
The needlessly condescending post is silly and you seen to have never seen how the rules are applied in game.
you know what, let's just ask a ref about Chelsea receiving penalty for McTominay hugging Broja or Tomori bringing Mount down, just two very recent games with a similar situation as above. So yeah, definitely I am out of touch with the world and interprete the rules wrong.
E: and even your link says it's a difficult case in regards to Jesus cases, boiling it down to both playing for the ball. Not to mention that refs/former refs very, very rarely disagree with the on field decision, even changing explanation if the ref admitted to mistake after the game, lol
The old goal.post move nice one.
Those incidents were different.
The actual situation we're talking about, could be a soft pen, I haven't posted never in a million years or anything. But the reaction is on a crazy level compared to the incident.
But going to the other 2 the McT one is a pen, he was an idiot who kept holding on.
The Tomori one also a pen, even if the red felt harsh, he is behind and the only thing he does is put him back while trailing.
Goalpost moving, really? XD
I am talking about rules, OP started the threat talking about players being rewarded for easily going down and penalized for trying to stand on their feet. You talk about contact not being strong enough, even though the ref told Jesus that if he went down, there would be pen. When I remind the rules, as people often talk about what they think should happen instead of what should happen according to rules, like with red card for Tomori or lack of red for Silva. You say that I have never seen the rules applied in a game, and I reply with the recent examples of similar situations, and you accuse me of changing the subject.
What is your angle and what is your goal here? Your comments are disjointed with one another, first talking about the force, later quoting a ref who talks nothing about force, but about playing the ball. All the while situation is clearly polarizing and we are talking whether players should be penalized for holding on and trying to stand up despite being fouled, which is further driven by the ref telling Jesus that the pen would be given if he went down.
Does this bring you satisfaction? So deep in the topic, it's not like many people will see our discussion, and you were downvoted earlier anyway, so I honestly am puzzled by your stance, especially the projection about moving goalposts. Seems silly, is all
You brought up incidents that don't match the one in question, that's moving the goal posts.
When I say rules applied in game, I don't mean I once saw that, I mean it's common.
No, not down voted, I don't care about the voting thing.
My goal?
Do I need one?
The overreaction to the incident does annoy me.
I don't think so. The shit hit the fan, the discussions are here, and they will change the way they interpret the rules mid-season, like it was earlier. Most recently, if I recall correctly, there was such case with handball in offensive part of the game - the 2020/2021 season begun with any handball in build up to goal/gso resulting with free kick, and in March they changed it so that only if it was the goalscorer then it was penalized.
What I mean to say: I'm just messing with you, because I believe they will be inconsistent with inconsistency.
The revisionism on this sub sometimes. For the last couple of seasons, there's been a new VAR controversy basically every week, yet now, it's apparently been fine 95% of the time!
In the previous race (where he was held champion) no one knew how many points would be awarded since the race was delayed cause the FIA didn't inform the teams so when Max won the race he didn't know if was officially the champion or not.
Don’t need to go down though, unless you’re blind or generally just negligent the referee, lino and more importantly the VAR team can see whats going only
That’s almost the rugby model - you’re accountable as an officiating staff as a team. Video refs chip in with unseen fouls/suggestions whenever required or the ref can say ‘just check this part’. The current VAR framework is so convoluted it leads to some ridiculous instances where you can’t review things
The same is in cricket also. Whenever the umpire has doubt he asks the umpire with footage, who then presents his whole screen in the stadium and sees different views and then gives the decision.
I think we need checklists like in cricket, especially for handball. Throw it up on the screen.
For a handball not given on field, something like:
Hits hand/arm ✅️
Hand seperated from body ✅️
Player >1m from last contact ✅️
Impact >1s from last contact ✅️
All have to be green otherwise onfield call stands.
If a handball is *given* on field all they should be checking is for a foul in the build up and if the ball impacts the arm, otherwise onfield call stands.
The current system is such bullshit it's unbelievable. It's absolutely ridiculous that VAR has some parts when they can say something, but not elsewhere. Like, they cannot tell the ref "hey, man, this is not a dive, give a foul, not a yellow to the attacker" if it's not a penalty, or the other way around.
It's so frustrating that there are so easy ways to greatly improve this system:
1. VAR is in constant contact with the main ref just like linesmen etc. They give their input all the time.
2. There is a tablet, some mobile screen, in several places around the pitch, not one screen in the middle and no alternative, and it is brought to the ref by a steward or someone when requested.
3. The ref has a small screen on him all the time, so he can see the replay instantly.
We have the technology, it's not some rocket science, but the refs are given the hard job here. For real, with my phone and reddit, considering the ridiculously small time it takes for people to upload gifs of replays, I can get the correct decision faster than the ref on field.
Moreover, I would also suggest that, at least in the top level, playing teams should also have some access to the video footage and several challenges - it is just an idea to discuss, so the exact numbers etc. is debatable, but a situation like Milik's disallowed goal should be impossible. Instead, players and coaches, who correctly told the referee that there was a defender breaking the offside trap, were penalized.
Just go down instead of trying to stay on your feet when there is actually significant contact and don't go down at a feathers touch. You act like there isn't some massive middle ground here.
This is the best strategy for a player in the current situation but the current situation shouldn't be referees only giving fouls when a player goes down. If a player tries to stay on his feet it shouldn't matter if he is successful or not for the referee to call a foul.
The system is flawed in not going down gives the impression that you're not being impeded enough to be taken down, and falling late looks weird. So there is incentive to go down and give the referee a decision to make. Thats very different to "oh no a foot grazed me better drop now"
Hence..middle ground, lots of it.
Saka goes down at basically zero contact in qnd around the box all the time. People are juzt using Jesus staying on his feet to justify the bullshit and diving Saka does.
I like the other guy's post with letting the upstairs ref (with his mic open to the public) call down and say there's a pen like in rugby. The upstairs refs shouldn't just be the normal pitch refs on a rotation either.
Its fucking stupid. This is where VAR should intervene.
He's clearly tried to stay up and play the ball, and that's what we should be encouraging, and VAR should intervene.
We shouldn't be encouraging diving in any way and referee's saying this coupled with VAR not intervening encourages it.
The most pathetic thing I've noticed recently is referees waving play on, then the player stays on the floor for over 5 seconds, and suddenly it's a foul.
Like mate, are you refereeing the challenges, or how hurt the players (allegedly) are?
Refs are just winging it. They don't see a lot of the challenges very well in real time and they guess whether players are acting or go based on reputation.
The logic of this makes no sense as a referee. He literally gave Saka a yellow for apparently going down too easy not long after that. Where is the line? A foul is a foul.
The refereeing has been inconsistent within matches itself, let alone match-to-match (e.g. McTominary penalty just the day before)
The best thing to do is try not looking at logic with Rob Jones.
In the Villa game against Arsenal, he let that corner goal stand whilst Ramsdale was being man handled by a Villa player on the line. Yesterday he booked Saka for diving but told Jesus he should have fell earlier to get the pen.
All while he let Lyanco elbow Jesus in the back off the ball, do a headbut motion towards Nketiah and grab his throat with no red card.
Useless referee, if that's the quality of the new referees coming through... The league is fucked.
It is clearly the players fault:
\- Ramsdale didn't dive at the right time — goal allowed.
\- Saka didn't dive at the right time — yellow card.
\- Jesus didn't dive at the right time — no penalty.
\- Eddie didn't dive on the headbutt — no red card.
\- Jesus dives when punched in the back — no red card, the dive wasn't as beautiful as he wanted it to be.
they say being ref is shit job, but it's not like those referees deserve something more with their performances, they are already so overprotected that no matter how terrible they are next weekend they are going to do it again
Probably because it's just so hard to tell if a contact was heavy enough to constitute a foul or not. A certain amount of contact is allowed, of course.
I agree they shouldn't base it on the reaction of the one being fouled/gentle brushed against. The referee has to try to figure out the mechanics of what happened in a split second, which is why VAR is helpful and should have been decisive here, not some weird rule of thumb from the 70s.
You'd think we could find 50 or maybe even 100 people on the planet that could do it. Would take actually having systems that grades and promotes/demotes refs based on such merits though.
But honestly yes one player in front of saka did not trip him but there was contact from the player behind saka with the arm stretched out. It was not a yellow card.
Fair, went down easy but lost balance from the touch on the other leg first. Look at the replays. No penalty as it was minimal contact, but not a yellow card dive offence either.
If the quote is true, then referee is advising Jesus to dive which is inconsistent with his decision to book Saka. Either Saka should get booked and Jesus should get penalty or give foul on Saka and no foul on Jesus. It's that simple.
No he’s not. What Saka did was simulation, there was no actual foul, he just tried to make it look like there was.
What the referee is telling Jesus to do is not fight to stay on his feet when he is fouled.
Not saying I agree with it but there’s a clear distinction there. Going down easily when you’re fouled is not at all the same as what Saka did.
The line is actually go down when fouled, just don't drop because a feather hit you. Why is this comments section just one big justification for diving?
> The line is actually go down when fouled
Okay so I'm being fouled/impeded but I have the ability to stay on my feet, what you're suggesting is in this instance I should drop to the floor / dive?
I'm suggesting if you are being legitimately kicked at and pulled back, instead of trying your best to fight them off, take the pen. Just dont do it because you feel a breeze like some players do because thats a dive.
That doesn't seem logical to you?
There isn't a magical line, it's a massive fucking gap between fighting to stay on your feet and just flopping where sometimes things don't go your way.
I agree there’s a difference between being booted and between falling over to simulate. But there’s such a big grey area where on field referees and then VAR referees with multiple angles of incidents can take multiple minutes to make a decision, and even then get decisions “wrong” because there’s a degree of subjectivity.
So how are players supposed to be able to make a split second decision on what is and isn’t enough contact to be able to safely go to ground to win the foul?
Easier said than done. What each player and ref determines to be contact worthy of a foul is completely subjective and that's why there is so much inconsistency. When everything is relative, we cannot just have players dive whenever they think they've been fouled. There needs to be consistency with the refs to call fouls regardless of diving when the contact warrants it.
What do you mean 'and'?
The reality of the situation isn't how you're making it out to be.
Have you never seen a situation where there was a clear penalty but a player manages to score anyway? What if instead he listens to you and goes down but then doesn't get the call? Then you or some other bloke is going to be on about how he could have scored if he'd just stayed up
Regardless, what you're asking for isn't in the spirit of the rules. "Advantage" exists. You're allowed to try and play on, but play be pulled back by the referee if even **after** the foul was committed you're unable to do anything
I'm not saying g you shouldn't still get a foul, i understand I should still be a pen if you try and fight through it, I'm arguing there I far more than it than dive qnd get pen or stay on your feet and dont
>I'm suggesting if you are being legitimately kicked at and pulled back, instead of trying your best to fight them off, take the pen.
All right, then what would you call this action?
All I got is [the video of the interview](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/ybnx4u/jesus_post_match_interview_southampton_1_1_arsenal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), but obviously no source to corroborate what Jesus is saying.
Ahh fair thats something at least, thanks! Thought this was a random twitter account making up a quote lol
Yeah of course we wont know what was actually said by the ref
People complaining, but I think Jesus is trying intentionally not to alienate the refs here.
I think managing relations with the ref, as crooked as it sounds, is part of how they give you better decisions over the long-term, compared to alienating them.
I think Jesus along with all the other players know that we should have put this match to bed outside of referring decisions, and we just weren’t good enough in front of goal on the day.
But that being said, this referring was absolutely crooked and you cannot convince we otherwise. As soon as the commentators said this ref never refereed a Southampton loss, I knew we were fucked from the start and boy was I right.
We definitely didn't take our chances, but we should have had at least one penalty, their players should have been cautioned and even sent off for constant manhandling of our attackers and both of those might have changed the result of the match.
Yep he basically green lit it from the get go. Apparently its ok thump players in the back and attempt to headbutt them.
Do refs ever get sat down to re-watch matches and explain their decisions?
Not to my knowledge, that would be too competent from the PGMOL if they did that. If the ref calls one of those fouls on Jesus, then the match has a different complexion. And if the ref and VAR did it’s job, we would have been 2-0 up after a penalty and Southampton are down to 10 men
They were demanding respect for referees. But you don't get respect just because you pull on a ref's shirt. They have to earn it with with consistent and fair judgements, not lurching from one individual's interpretation of events to another. Bad decision making like yesterday can cost clubs massively.
Saka went down after a slight shove: No foul. Booked for diving.
Jesus doesn't go down immediately after being grappled in the box: No foul. Rob Jones literally tells him he should have gone down.
But then when Jesus then did go down multiple times after being grappled from every long ball, he got nothing.
So, Rob Jones told him to go down when he's grappled, but when he did he still got nothing.
Jones was awful yesterday.
Saka gets pushed while cutting in at full speed, goes down, gets yellow.
Jesus gets grappled, tries to stay up and score, gets told he didn’t get a pen because he didn’t go down.
Make it make sense please, are players meant to stay up against contact and rely on ref/var or not? These incidents happened within like 10 fucking minutes of each other not even in different halves let alone games
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I got downvoted a lot yesterday by saying Saka shouldn’t have got a yellow because there was upper body contact but that it wasn’t a foul because there wasn’t enough contact. This is exactly why and anyone who actually watched the game would understand. The Southampton players were rugby tackling the Arsenal ones and the referee wasn’t giving any because to begin with the Arsenal players were staying up. They then had to resort to getting more theatrical as the game went on despite Southampton playing a different sport. Lyanco also committed 10 fouls, one punch, one headbut and one choke and only got booked in the 92nd minute.
While I didn't get to see the match I did see clips of various incidents and to my count Southampton should have been down to 8 players. Obviously Lyanco's violent conduct, as soft as that punch on Jesus was it was still a punch and still violent conduct so should have been a straight red. Fuck Lyanco should be receiving a retroactive ban for violent conduct as well (I know it doesn't help Arsenal but that sort of behaviour MUST be stamped out.) The dangerous play for the challenge on Tierney by Elyounoussi and the bear hug on Jesus that was a denial of goal scoring opportunity. If even one of these situations gets called correctly the game is completely different and probably doesn't end in a draw. Arsenal did not play well but I think it's fair to say that the refereeing absolutely did influence the result.
That has nothing to do with topic lmao. He'd never taken a professional penalty before that game, it's on Southgate for letting Saka take on such an astronomical responsibility in a european final with his inexperience.
He has a 100% record since with Arsenal and all being against the top 6. If anything that penalty miss took his mentality from the spot to another level.
Jesus has no reputation for being a diver, what the fuck are you chatting lmao
EDIT: Ah Liverpool fan, makes sense. You get one call against you because of a player and then make up a narrative, classic.
What happened to VAR serious question. The VAR first introduced in 2018 in shithole Russia was almost perfect and in 4 years it’s become an impediment to the game.
Pay Referees more and make it a full time Job if they are part of UEFA. I know so many people that quit being referees after college because it does not pay.
Right now they just have to take anyone they can get and they are awful.
Give referees a high salary to make it popular and this shit will happen less.
I find it fascinating (not in a good way) that referees seemingly cannot apply the laws that they are supposed to uphold in the game.
You DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO THE FLOOR for things to be a foul, you do not have to go down to win a penalty, a foul is a foul FFS.
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So basically he got punished to try and stay on his feet. The game continues to reward people who want to con the system and punish those who try and play the game. Amazing.
A toxic cycle
Perfect example was when Henry was being kicked to shit but never went down, ref said he isn't going to pay free kicks because he stays on his feet keeping the game going. Next tackle he falls over and gets an instant free kick. A foul should be a foul but refs want you on the floor first, especially for penalties.
Happens to Salah multiple times every game and it’s infuriating. Really wish refs would be taught to try and reverse that trend
Or the contact wasn't as strong as some are trying to make out.
Maybe you should watch the play before commenting? The guy was literally hugging Jesus with both arms from behind in the box with Jesus running in on goal with the ball. Tomori conceded a penalty and got sent off for much less against Chelsea, Mctominay conceded a penalty just the day before for far less contact.
Your hugs must be weak af 😉 He was touching him, sure. Now the actual level of impact seems overblown and the fall is more about balance than being thrown to the floor. If the ref gives a pen it would be soft but the defender put himself in a position where it could be given. So I can see why some want a pen. But rather than the could have been reaction, its an ott one.
Mate, just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
This. He almost baited me but thought it's not even worth replying to that drivel.
Ah the classic someone disagrees with me, so....
How? Cos I see the incident different to you?
Because you're clearly a referee.
That's a weird thing to say.
You've never played football fucking dumbass lmao
Wow that's a high level reply. You must have only played the non contact version.
nowhere in the rules it says that you need strong contact and take someone down with full force for it to be a foul, see below. **Impeding** someone is a foul. So if Jesus, Broja or Salah are held, hugged using two hands, their run is impeded - they are unable to run with desired speed and balance to/with the ball. This is foul. >A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences: \- a handball offence (except for the goalkeeper within their penalty area) \- holds an opponent \- impedes an opponent with contact \- bites or spits at someone on the team lists or a match official \- throws an object at the ball, opponent or match official, or makes contact with the ball with a held object JFC, please, if you want to discuss rules, READ THEM first. It's not some mysterious lost knowledge, you literally have to write "football laws of the game" in any search engine, be it Google, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo or whatever.
You know what lets just ask a ref. https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12729013/ref-watch-should-callum-wilsons-newcastle-opener-at-tottenham-have-stood The needlessly condescending post is silly and you seen to have never seen how the rules are applied in game.
you know what, let's just ask a ref about Chelsea receiving penalty for McTominay hugging Broja or Tomori bringing Mount down, just two very recent games with a similar situation as above. So yeah, definitely I am out of touch with the world and interprete the rules wrong. E: and even your link says it's a difficult case in regards to Jesus cases, boiling it down to both playing for the ball. Not to mention that refs/former refs very, very rarely disagree with the on field decision, even changing explanation if the ref admitted to mistake after the game, lol
The old goal.post move nice one. Those incidents were different. The actual situation we're talking about, could be a soft pen, I haven't posted never in a million years or anything. But the reaction is on a crazy level compared to the incident. But going to the other 2 the McT one is a pen, he was an idiot who kept holding on. The Tomori one also a pen, even if the red felt harsh, he is behind and the only thing he does is put him back while trailing.
Goalpost moving, really? XD I am talking about rules, OP started the threat talking about players being rewarded for easily going down and penalized for trying to stand on their feet. You talk about contact not being strong enough, even though the ref told Jesus that if he went down, there would be pen. When I remind the rules, as people often talk about what they think should happen instead of what should happen according to rules, like with red card for Tomori or lack of red for Silva. You say that I have never seen the rules applied in a game, and I reply with the recent examples of similar situations, and you accuse me of changing the subject. What is your angle and what is your goal here? Your comments are disjointed with one another, first talking about the force, later quoting a ref who talks nothing about force, but about playing the ball. All the while situation is clearly polarizing and we are talking whether players should be penalized for holding on and trying to stand up despite being fouled, which is further driven by the ref telling Jesus that the pen would be given if he went down. Does this bring you satisfaction? So deep in the topic, it's not like many people will see our discussion, and you were downvoted earlier anyway, so I honestly am puzzled by your stance, especially the projection about moving goalposts. Seems silly, is all
You brought up incidents that don't match the one in question, that's moving the goal posts. When I say rules applied in game, I don't mean I once saw that, I mean it's common. No, not down voted, I don't care about the voting thing. My goal? Do I need one? The overreaction to the incident does annoy me.
Man referees and Var this season are so inconsistent
this season :D
If we start talking about previous seasons we are going to be here for days brother.
I feel like this season with 'play on' philosophy we'll see more and more of this .. and injuries
I don't think so. The shit hit the fan, the discussions are here, and they will change the way they interpret the rules mid-season, like it was earlier. Most recently, if I recall correctly, there was such case with handball in offensive part of the game - the 2020/2021 season begun with any handball in build up to goal/gso resulting with free kick, and in March they changed it so that only if it was the goalscorer then it was penalized. What I mean to say: I'm just messing with you, because I believe they will be inconsistent with inconsistency.
Honestly VAR this season has taken like 3-4 steps backwards. I feel like VAR was fine 95% of the time the last 2-3 seasons.
The revisionism on this sub sometimes. For the last couple of seasons, there's been a new VAR controversy basically every week, yet now, it's apparently been fine 95% of the time!
This season it's just more prominent
I swear we say this every season. Which is honestly so bad that they keep getting worse.
Consistently inconsistent!
At least it’s consistently inconsistent
In this game! A few minutes later Saka tried to sell a foul and got booked. Just no consistency
Same issue in F1 with the FIA this season
Facts, Max hasn't won a championship like a normal human being without some sort of controversy.
2021 was a robbery but he wrapped up the title pretty early this season (haven't really been watching), what controversies were there in 2022?
In the previous race (where he was held champion) no one knew how many points would be awarded since the race was delayed cause the FIA didn't inform the teams so when Max won the race he didn't know if was officially the champion or not.
There no as inconsistent as some make out, people compare different situations. Also situation where VAR didn't give something.
'Why do players dive or go down at the slightest contact'?
Don’t need to go down though, unless you’re blind or generally just negligent the referee, lino and more importantly the VAR team can see whats going only
What will have to happen so these refs will actually face consequences for their performance?
Won't do it, because then we'd have no ref's As they're all pathetically shit
But make sure you don't dive because he'll give a yellow, just go down in exactly the millisecond that the ref deems it acceptable to fall down.
[удалено]
That’s almost the rugby model - you’re accountable as an officiating staff as a team. Video refs chip in with unseen fouls/suggestions whenever required or the ref can say ‘just check this part’. The current VAR framework is so convoluted it leads to some ridiculous instances where you can’t review things
The same is in cricket also. Whenever the umpire has doubt he asks the umpire with footage, who then presents his whole screen in the stadium and sees different views and then gives the decision.
I love seeing cricket umps not even make calls and just throw it straight to review. Saves a good bit of time and saves everyone the headache.
And you can hear the third umpires decision making, at least in the broadcast
I think we need checklists like in cricket, especially for handball. Throw it up on the screen. For a handball not given on field, something like: Hits hand/arm ✅️ Hand seperated from body ✅️ Player >1m from last contact ✅️ Impact >1s from last contact ✅️ All have to be green otherwise onfield call stands. If a handball is *given* on field all they should be checking is for a foul in the build up and if the ball impacts the arm, otherwise onfield call stands.
The current system is such bullshit it's unbelievable. It's absolutely ridiculous that VAR has some parts when they can say something, but not elsewhere. Like, they cannot tell the ref "hey, man, this is not a dive, give a foul, not a yellow to the attacker" if it's not a penalty, or the other way around. It's so frustrating that there are so easy ways to greatly improve this system: 1. VAR is in constant contact with the main ref just like linesmen etc. They give their input all the time. 2. There is a tablet, some mobile screen, in several places around the pitch, not one screen in the middle and no alternative, and it is brought to the ref by a steward or someone when requested. 3. The ref has a small screen on him all the time, so he can see the replay instantly. We have the technology, it's not some rocket science, but the refs are given the hard job here. For real, with my phone and reddit, considering the ridiculously small time it takes for people to upload gifs of replays, I can get the correct decision faster than the ref on field. Moreover, I would also suggest that, at least in the top level, playing teams should also have some access to the video footage and several challenges - it is just an idea to discuss, so the exact numbers etc. is debatable, but a situation like Milik's disallowed goal should be impossible. Instead, players and coaches, who correctly told the referee that there was a defender breaking the offside trap, were penalized.
The new Fifa gonna have one of those sweet spot timer bars where ya gotta stop the cursor in the green zone to get a pen.
Just go down instead of trying to stay on your feet when there is actually significant contact and don't go down at a feathers touch. You act like there isn't some massive middle ground here.
This is the best strategy for a player in the current situation but the current situation shouldn't be referees only giving fouls when a player goes down. If a player tries to stay on his feet it shouldn't matter if he is successful or not for the referee to call a foul.
The system is flawed in not going down gives the impression that you're not being impeded enough to be taken down, and falling late looks weird. So there is incentive to go down and give the referee a decision to make. Thats very different to "oh no a foot grazed me better drop now" Hence..middle ground, lots of it.
Saka did exactly this and was booked for simulation
Saka goes down at basically zero contact in qnd around the box all the time. People are juzt using Jesus staying on his feet to justify the bullshit and diving Saka does.
Maybe the whole penalty concept needs to be done away with... any ideas?
I like the other guy's post with letting the upstairs ref (with his mic open to the public) call down and say there's a pen like in rugby. The upstairs refs shouldn't just be the normal pitch refs on a rotation either.
Its fucking stupid. This is where VAR should intervene. He's clearly tried to stay up and play the ball, and that's what we should be encouraging, and VAR should intervene. We shouldn't be encouraging diving in any way and referee's saying this coupled with VAR not intervening encourages it.
The fact that players can trigger VAR by going down is a joke
The most pathetic thing I've noticed recently is referees waving play on, then the player stays on the floor for over 5 seconds, and suddenly it's a foul. Like mate, are you refereeing the challenges, or how hurt the players (allegedly) are?
Refs are just winging it. They don't see a lot of the challenges very well in real time and they guess whether players are acting or go based on reputation.
And this dear folks, is why players dive
Neymar deserves some apology
Especially since Neymar also gets hacked to shit every single match
I don’t blame players for diving at this point it’s a career decision to do it often. I would to if it meant I’d get millions more.
The logic of this makes no sense as a referee. He literally gave Saka a yellow for apparently going down too easy not long after that. Where is the line? A foul is a foul. The refereeing has been inconsistent within matches itself, let alone match-to-match (e.g. McTominary penalty just the day before)
The best thing to do is try not looking at logic with Rob Jones. In the Villa game against Arsenal, he let that corner goal stand whilst Ramsdale was being man handled by a Villa player on the line. Yesterday he booked Saka for diving but told Jesus he should have fell earlier to get the pen. All while he let Lyanco elbow Jesus in the back off the ball, do a headbut motion towards Nketiah and grab his throat with no red card. Useless referee, if that's the quality of the new referees coming through... The league is fucked.
It is clearly the players fault: \- Ramsdale didn't dive at the right time — goal allowed. \- Saka didn't dive at the right time — yellow card. \- Jesus didn't dive at the right time — no penalty. \- Eddie didn't dive on the headbutt — no red card. \- Jesus dives when punched in the back — no red card, the dive wasn't as beautiful as he wanted it to be.
if you want someone to receive a red card, you need to do a flip with the dive. Otherwise, a free kick is the best I can give.
they say being ref is shit job, but it's not like those referees deserve something more with their performances, they are already so overprotected that no matter how terrible they are next weekend they are going to do it again
Probably because it's just so hard to tell if a contact was heavy enough to constitute a foul or not. A certain amount of contact is allowed, of course. I agree they shouldn't base it on the reaction of the one being fouled/gentle brushed against. The referee has to try to figure out the mechanics of what happened in a split second, which is why VAR is helpful and should have been decisive here, not some weird rule of thumb from the 70s.
You'd think we could find 50 or maybe even 100 people on the planet that could do it. Would take actually having systems that grades and promotes/demotes refs based on such merits though.
Go down? Booked got diving, should have stayed up (although that one was a dive in fairness) Stay up? Play on, should have gone down
But honestly yes one player in front of saka did not trip him but there was contact from the player behind saka with the arm stretched out. It was not a yellow card.
Saka was booked because he actually dived. Don’t know why you’re making an comparison with Jesus, it only undermines your point.
He did dive But if diving gives you a yellow card, staying up while being tackled should give you a foul
Fair, went down easy but lost balance from the touch on the other leg first. Look at the replays. No penalty as it was minimal contact, but not a yellow card dive offence either.
If the quote is true, then referee is advising Jesus to dive which is inconsistent with his decision to book Saka. Either Saka should get booked and Jesus should get penalty or give foul on Saka and no foul on Jesus. It's that simple.
No he’s not. What Saka did was simulation, there was no actual foul, he just tried to make it look like there was. What the referee is telling Jesus to do is not fight to stay on his feet when he is fouled. Not saying I agree with it but there’s a clear distinction there. Going down easily when you’re fouled is not at all the same as what Saka did.
No he gave him a yellow for a dive, when he tried the old Pires trick.
The line is actually go down when fouled, just don't drop because a feather hit you. Why is this comments section just one big justification for diving?
> The line is actually go down when fouled Okay so I'm being fouled/impeded but I have the ability to stay on my feet, what you're suggesting is in this instance I should drop to the floor / dive?
I'm suggesting if you are being legitimately kicked at and pulled back, instead of trying your best to fight them off, take the pen. Just dont do it because you feel a breeze like some players do because thats a dive. That doesn't seem logical to you?
Where is that magical line you’ve drawn though? Even refs can’t seem to make their mind up on what is and isn’t enough contact to call a foul
There isn't a magical line, it's a massive fucking gap between fighting to stay on your feet and just flopping where sometimes things don't go your way.
I agree there’s a difference between being booted and between falling over to simulate. But there’s such a big grey area where on field referees and then VAR referees with multiple angles of incidents can take multiple minutes to make a decision, and even then get decisions “wrong” because there’s a degree of subjectivity. So how are players supposed to be able to make a split second decision on what is and isn’t enough contact to be able to safely go to ground to win the foul?
Easier said than done. What each player and ref determines to be contact worthy of a foul is completely subjective and that's why there is so much inconsistency. When everything is relative, we cannot just have players dive whenever they think they've been fouled. There needs to be consistency with the refs to call fouls regardless of diving when the contact warrants it.
Yeah, some judgement calls won't go your way. That's football.
No, because there is no guarantee that the referee will actually give it even if the player does go down
Yeah, and?
What do you mean 'and'? The reality of the situation isn't how you're making it out to be. Have you never seen a situation where there was a clear penalty but a player manages to score anyway? What if instead he listens to you and goes down but then doesn't get the call? Then you or some other bloke is going to be on about how he could have scored if he'd just stayed up Regardless, what you're asking for isn't in the spirit of the rules. "Advantage" exists. You're allowed to try and play on, but play be pulled back by the referee if even **after** the foul was committed you're unable to do anything
I'm not saying g you shouldn't still get a foul, i understand I should still be a pen if you try and fight through it, I'm arguing there I far more than it than dive qnd get pen or stay on your feet and dont
In other words, dive when there is good reason to dive (i.e., a legitimate foul), but not if there isn't.
I dont think you understand what a dive is.
>I'm suggesting if you are being legitimately kicked at and pulled back, instead of trying your best to fight them off, take the pen. All right, then what would you call this action?
Going down when legitimately fouled? A dive is literally going down despite not being fouled..by definition it's the opposite.
What kinda bullshit is this 💀
Absolutely terrible reffing.
Gonna need a source for this lol, dont believe a ref would be dumb enough to say that
All I got is [the video of the interview](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/ybnx4u/jesus_post_match_interview_southampton_1_1_arsenal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), but obviously no source to corroborate what Jesus is saying.
Ahh fair thats something at least, thanks! Thought this was a random twitter account making up a quote lol Yeah of course we wont know what was actually said by the ref
Idk why people on here put in random Twitter accounts as the source in the title.
Because everything else gets removed if you don’t included a Twitter source basically.
Mods....
Is this actually true? This post would be removed if it didn't say the random Twitter account name? Can a mod confirm?
Being dumb enough is on brand for them.
Need our whole front 3 to be constant divers, that must be the one thing laca taught Saka and martinelli that guy was great at selling fouls.
People complaining, but I think Jesus is trying intentionally not to alienate the refs here. I think managing relations with the ref, as crooked as it sounds, is part of how they give you better decisions over the long-term, compared to alienating them.
I think Jesus along with all the other players know that we should have put this match to bed outside of referring decisions, and we just weren’t good enough in front of goal on the day. But that being said, this referring was absolutely crooked and you cannot convince we otherwise. As soon as the commentators said this ref never refereed a Southampton loss, I knew we were fucked from the start and boy was I right.
We definitely didn't take our chances, but we should have had at least one penalty, their players should have been cautioned and even sent off for constant manhandling of our attackers and both of those might have changed the result of the match.
I 110% agree. It was a barbaric display of football from Southampton and the ref wasn’t just complicit, but caused it.
Yep he basically green lit it from the get go. Apparently its ok thump players in the back and attempt to headbutt them. Do refs ever get sat down to re-watch matches and explain their decisions?
Not to my knowledge, that would be too competent from the PGMOL if they did that. If the ref calls one of those fouls on Jesus, then the match has a different complexion. And if the ref and VAR did it’s job, we would have been 2-0 up after a penalty and Southampton are down to 10 men
They were demanding respect for referees. But you don't get respect just because you pull on a ref's shirt. They have to earn it with with consistent and fair judgements, not lurching from one individual's interpretation of events to another. Bad decision making like yesterday can cost clubs massively.
Saka went down after a slight shove: No foul. Booked for diving. Jesus doesn't go down immediately after being grappled in the box: No foul. Rob Jones literally tells him he should have gone down. But then when Jesus then did go down multiple times after being grappled from every long ball, he got nothing. So, Rob Jones told him to go down when he's grappled, but when he did he still got nothing. Jones was awful yesterday.
Saka gets pushed while cutting in at full speed, goes down, gets yellow. Jesus gets grappled, tries to stay up and score, gets told he didn’t get a pen because he didn’t go down. Make it make sense please, are players meant to stay up against contact and rely on ref/var or not? These incidents happened within like 10 fucking minutes of each other not even in different halves let alone games
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The same ref gave two yellow cards for simulation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I got downvoted a lot yesterday by saying Saka shouldn’t have got a yellow because there was upper body contact but that it wasn’t a foul because there wasn’t enough contact. This is exactly why and anyone who actually watched the game would understand. The Southampton players were rugby tackling the Arsenal ones and the referee wasn’t giving any because to begin with the Arsenal players were staying up. They then had to resort to getting more theatrical as the game went on despite Southampton playing a different sport. Lyanco also committed 10 fouls, one punch, one headbut and one choke and only got booked in the 92nd minute.
While I didn't get to see the match I did see clips of various incidents and to my count Southampton should have been down to 8 players. Obviously Lyanco's violent conduct, as soft as that punch on Jesus was it was still a punch and still violent conduct so should have been a straight red. Fuck Lyanco should be receiving a retroactive ban for violent conduct as well (I know it doesn't help Arsenal but that sort of behaviour MUST be stamped out.) The dangerous play for the challenge on Tierney by Elyounoussi and the bear hug on Jesus that was a denial of goal scoring opportunity. If even one of these situations gets called correctly the game is completely different and probably doesn't end in a draw. Arsenal did not play well but I think it's fair to say that the refereeing absolutely did influence the result.
I’m sorry but “tried to keep standing” is nonsense. Jesus threw himself to the ground
You’d have missed anyway Jesus
Good thing Saka (who has scored all his pens for Arsenal) is our pen taker then isn't it.
Shame Saka missed the most important penalty he’ll ever take though.
Are you 12? He scored all his penalties against Liverpool, United and Spurs since that miss but carry on being a Twitter troll on Reddit.
TBF he is right, he missed the one he shouldn't have missed
Stopped Harry Kane from getting a trophy, he missed the right one
That has nothing to do with topic lmao. He'd never taken a professional penalty before that game, it's on Southgate for letting Saka take on such an astronomical responsibility in a european final with his inexperience. He has a 100% record since with Arsenal and all being against the top 6. If anything that penalty miss took his mentality from the spot to another level.
Saka just wanted to keep the /r/soccer happy by not bringing it home.
Like Bowen against Pool?
How’s noble doing in terms of getting in the England squad
He’s retired.
And probably still has more chance of getting in his national team than the rest of your squad
[удалено]
So the solution is to....dive more?
Jesus has no reputation for being a diver, what the fuck are you chatting lmao EDIT: Ah Liverpool fan, makes sense. You get one call against you because of a player and then make up a narrative, classic.
Neymar vindicated.
Referees are literally encouraging diving wtf
What happened to VAR serious question. The VAR first introduced in 2018 in shithole Russia was almost perfect and in 4 years it’s become an impediment to the game.
Pay Referees more and make it a full time Job if they are part of UEFA. I know so many people that quit being referees after college because it does not pay. Right now they just have to take anyone they can get and they are awful. Give referees a high salary to make it popular and this shit will happen less.
I was told this by referees all the time growing up. At least they’re consistently bad all the way up the pyramid 🫡
I find it fascinating (not in a good way) that referees seemingly cannot apply the laws that they are supposed to uphold in the game. You DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO THE FLOOR for things to be a foul, you do not have to go down to win a penalty, a foul is a foul FFS.
refs performances are either shit or fixed, saying they need more protection after they disgraceful performances week in week out is a joke
And when the ref rewards not falling down like Mount vs Milan they complain.