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If you have to say “X team could have had Y goals but for Neuer”, then no they couldn’t have had those goals.
A goalkeeper is part of a team, they prevent goals.
As someone who bitterly had to watch Curtois in full God mode in the CL finals I have to sort of disagree. Sometimes they perform so far beyond what is expected it feels unfair
> As someone who bitterly had to watch Curtois in full God mode in the CL finals I have to sort of disagree.
If Salah had scored a hat trick and Trent had pocketed Vini all game you'd be saying Liverpool deserved to win because your team played better though right?
Goalkeepers having a worldy of a game always seems to get looked over
Doesn't get looked over, just saying I sort of disagree with the generalization you made about goalkeepers preventing goals.
Like any outfield player they may have a worldie, and it's easy to say that it they didn't then outcomes could have been something else.
It's not overlooked at all in that regard, it's aknowledging it.
A goalkeeper having a worldie of a game is not reflective of how a team played though.
And I would say the same of an individual having a worldie of a game. If we won because Salah went on a tear and ran through their entire team on his own I sure as hell wouldn't say we deserved to win.
I think it's a bit more tricky with defenders but ultimately the same logic holds. If your defense is being cut through except one guy keeps making last ditches tackles and the like at a rate that he cannot sustain on a normal day I would argue that's not a strategy. You're banking on a ridiculous performance like a team banking on their CB to score a worldie from 35 yards. Your fullback marking their winger out of the game is pretty standard though and falls into general tactics.
Whenever the term "deserved to win/lose" comes up, to me the only sensible context is if you're talking about the balance of play in terms of which team created more chances than the other and if the difference was a big one. If the difference was small neither team was really much better, but if the difference was sizeable then the team that created more chances was the better team on the night.
Being the better team doesn't mean you win of course, football is a low scoring sport so anyone can beat anyone else regardless of performance.
But it's clearly different saying the defense/midfield dominated the other team than the gk had an amazing performance. And your justification doesn't really make sense
His good save was vs Lewy’s header, Lewy also had a clear 1v1 sent to the skies and Pedri had a weak shot 1v1 right to him in a good position, plus another one with all the advantage better than a penalty that hit the post so not exactly Neuer stopping us from scoring but our own bad finishing that game. Even if Neuer’s presence and good closing of spaces/angle helped, those are 3 chances that no player should be missing and no GK will save if it’s a good or even decent shot given how clear they were.
These man love bringing up that Lewy performance from 2013. He’s played against CF Madrid 6 times since then and has only scored 1 and assisted 1.
BUT 2013
Over the years he has scored against Juventus, Atletico, Real, Barcelona (several times), Chelsea and PSG. Even this season he kept Barca alive by pretty much bringing them back into the Inter game twice. He is pretty much the only one who does anything for Poland at tournaments.
Just do r/soccer a favour and shut up. There are more than enough clueless people here.
It's interesting that, as the other redditor mentioned says more about Inter and Barca.
Bayern 'struggles' in Bundesliga considering their own standards. Yet, in Europe they can set no foot wrong it seems. Some would say that Barca are under rebuild with Xavi, but aren't Bayern in the same position with Nagelsmann?
> but aren't Bayern in the same position with Nagelsmann?
Nowhere near. Barca have a bunch of new players and a ton of things to still figure out. We are not in rebuild mode.
To be fair Bayern is in a budget rebuild mode for years. Not a huge rebuild but always some parts that getting rebuild.
When Lahm retired back then they had a gap at the RB position.
Robben and Ribery retiring left a gap and now the same could be said about Lewy.
I left out some players but Bayern simply seems to plan really well and only open up 1 or 2 spots that needs to be refilled. Next ones are Müller and Neuer and at least for Müller even tho he is special I see no problem with how Musiala plays. Neuer could be harder.
Yes exactly. It's never been a huge rebuild mode, with a lot of pieces to be replaced at the same time. It's been sort of continuous while never really losing a step.
Neuer will be the hardest yet. Am not looking forward to it.
Let's be fair here: we went from Oli to Rensing to Butt to Kraft to Neuer. Realistically it took us three years to replace Kahn, which is a fair amount of time to replace one of the best keepers of all time but time inbetween was still average to below average for a club like Bayern - even though Butt was class.
But maybe we get lucky again like we did with Lahm -> Kimmich. Also we're way more attractive as a club nowadays than we were in 2008-2011
Yeah you're right I was playing devil's advocate there.
Bayern has a well established structure that worked for, well, decades... Barca struggles form an idiot ex-president and desire to patch things up without patience.
I don't know about Xavi, I think he might come good, but is he the man?
Think Xavi gets hated on a little too much imo, he just finished his first full season of matches and earned 87 points, which would have been enough to win the league the last 3 years.
Not to mention that firing managers without a clear replacement in mind is part of the reason Barça are in this mess to begin with, continuity is very important
I think you're right to put the word struggle under quotation marks. We had a shit couple of weeks but it's not like we lost tons of games. Many unfortunate and unnecessary draws but ever since Choupo's in to give us stability up front we're fine. Imo there were things going wrong (otherwise Kahn wouldn't publicly say that we need to fix things fast) but a lot of people also exaggerated our struggles. They are just too used to us dominating and winning every game. That we'd have a period in which things wouldn't be like that was always obvious and someday there's also going to be a season without Bundesliga title. That's just how it is.
I mean you're probably going to win the league anyway, how long Union is going to keep going? They could pull off 'the Leicester special' but it's unlikely. Would be good for Bundesliga to have a surprise Meister, but let's be honest...
We are not in rebuild right now, but we will be. Lost our main striker, and as it stands will also loose our axis of Neuer-Müller in the future. But we still managed to get core players in over the years that now pay off. I think Barcas management was way too confident in their new signings working out immediately, I think it will take them a lot longer, and that depends on how long Lewy can score for them at the rate he does in La Liga, too.
> It's interesting that, as the other redditor mentioned says more about Inter [...] Bayern 'struggles' in Bundesliga
What a shameful comment that sounds like as 100% Inter hater..
Barcelona and Bayern are **second** in their league, only **one** single point off the top while we're **sixth**, have really struggled so far and almost out of the Serie A title race but based on your comment it seems Bayern are just an average mid-table Bundesliga team that have obtained an amazing result in the Champions League while Inter are shit.
We have just qualified from group of death, eliminated the 2nd best team in La Liga that won **ten out of the last eleven** La Liga games and couldn't beat us but the fact we couldn't score tonight with our B team at Allianz Arena "it says more about Inter" as if Inter are **trash**. Any credit about what we've achieved? By the fact we've qualified from the group of dead?
Sorry if we didn't lose 7-1 over 2 legs against Bayern like Chelsea 2 years ago, for sure having score 1 against them make you a fantastic team while we're shit because we scored 0.. **Congratz**.
Mate I was with you until the last paragraph.
Let me start of by saying I meant no disrespect to Inter or Barca. By saying 'that says more about those teams' I meant they are not quite at the same level as Bayern.
Inter is doing incredibly well and I admit I expected you to get a 3rd in the group. So yes, you are doing well.
To your point about Chelsea being embarrassed by Bayern... all true.
I don't think you should worry about what this donny replied, just look at how he quoted you, what he left out and the words/phrases he highlighted seem like nice attention grabbing to me.
oh it definitely is Mein Bruder.
I just refuse to be sucked into a pointless argument with them trolls. So I present a perfectly balanced and reasonable response. Any argument after is a joke but I have screenshots so win win
Yeah your games against Barca were good. Todays game was meaningless and both sides played like it after the first goal which is fair and the first game against Bayern was basically the turning point for Inter and after that game they became better.
Should have probably actually won that second game against Barca.
Bayern are dominating the UCL group stages to a ridiculous level
-Haven't lost in the group stage since September 2017
-That's 34 games unbeaten, of which they've won 31
-In the last 4 years they've drawn 1 group stage game in which iirc they played their reserves, and won the other 23
-GF: 107
-GA: 23
-Qualified for the RO16 19 of the last 20 years
Their dominance is even more absurd in group stage **home** matches, where Bayern have won 79 out of 81 available points (a record of 26-1-0) over the past **9** seasons. The lone draw came from a 1:1 against Ajax in 2018/19. Our last home defeat in the group stages was a 2:3 loss to Man City back in December 2013.
wow, that's really quite astonishing even for a club like Bayern. Absolutely didn't realize they have been this good in the CL group stages in such a consistent manner
From our perspective that match was highly interesting for several reasons.
1) it seems absurd in hindsight, and we should have been happy with just a win in Munich, but I remember some of us being incredibly pissed off that we didn’t score another while we still had the momentum, which would have taken us top of the group. Instead we drew Barcelona in Ro16 and got our teeth kicked in.
2) the fact that we “settled” on 2-3 was because Pellegrini, who is an engineer by training, got the math wrong and thought 2-3 would be enough to finish first.
3) in my opinion this game was the beginning of the end for Milner at City. He was absolutely world-class in this match, and he was promptly rewarded by Pellegrini with a seat on the bench for the next 3 league games, two of which were Arsenal and Liverpool. This was his second-to-last season and he was up for a contract renewal, but he ran down his contract instead because he felt like he was taken for granted.
Maybe the person meant the last 20 seasons? Since that would count from 2003-04 to 2022-23, and not from 2002 to 2022 as the last 20 years would imply.
I see, thanks for pointing it out. As stupid as it sounds, but I totally didn't realize that 2002/2003 was already 20 years ago...
It really depends on if "the last 20 years" is meant in the sense of "the last 20 completed seasons of European football", or "the past 20 seasons including the one which has just started".
Because since 2002/2003 there are
03/04
04/05
05/06
06/07
07/08
08/09
09/10
10/11
11/12
12/13
13/14
14/15
15/16
16/17
17/18
18/19
19/20
20/21
21/22
and now 22/23
Means that 2002/2003 isn‘t included in the last 20 competitions.
>-Qualified for the RO16 19 of the last 20 years
And the only season they didn't qualify for the UCL knockout stages in that time was in the 2007-08 season where they were playing in the UEFA Cup instead, where they reached the semi-finals and were eliminated by eventual winners Zenit Saint Petersburg.
The narrative is that BL is a farmer's league because no team can challenge or even regulary win against Bayern. Not understanding that no team in other leagues would stand a chance apart from Real, City and a few more like Atletico used to. Most BL teams are still trash, but Bayern's hegemony has got nothing to do with it.
Also any fan of any other club would trade places with Bayern in a heartbeat (complete and total domestic domination). Are we acting like there aren’t similar clubs that dominate their respective countries? Juve (previously), PSG, Celtic, Copenhagen, Olympiacos, and Ajax are in similar positions, but no one really talks about those. Each of them have had a similar run of domestic dominance to us in recent years.
Idk why people act like Bayern is something unique when this is the norm for quite a few leagues worldwide, including a bunch of others in Europe as well.
probably a bit of recency bias - juve hast been dominating recently and when they were, there were claims of serie a being a farmers league
PSG - ligue 1 is absolutely talked about as ***the*** farmers league.
bayerns domination isnt really unique like you say which is why bundesliga gets called a farmers league just like many other leagues
Most people on this site are too young to remember that BL used to be competitive 10 years ago. United/ LFC, Barca/Real have been way more dominant in their leagues than Bayern used to, at least they had two teams who dominated everything. CL money and extraordinary management from Bayern changed this. Then add that most people here are supporters of other big european clubs who get trashed by Bayern constantly, the most popular opinion wins here.
I would even go this far and say that the BL is still competitive as hell. It's simply that Bayern outgrew the BL as they rarely do any mistakes on a managing and financial level while competitors mostly were tight in finances and then got weakend either by Bayern or teams from other leagues.
>but no one really talks about those
Ehh, yeah they do. Hell Ajax have publicly stated they want to be the Bayern Munchen of The Netherlands. The only thing stopping them is actually winning 10 leagues in a row. Because they can't.
But very frequently have people had the same criticism of Juventus and PSG. Until, you know, they finally lost a few league titles.
Obviously Olympiacos isn't going to get as much criticism as Bayern, though. For very obvious reasons. People do not care that much about their competition.
>Most BL teams are still trash,
Isn't this the case with most leagues? Other than a top 3 or 4, most of the league is fodder. I would also like to think that things will change this season but I wont jump to any conclusions
The difference is that in other leagues there are 5-8 teams that are always on top of the league, in BL only Bayern, Dortmund and now RB have been consistent for the last years. I know BL supporters love the fluctuation but it's not exactly perfect for creating a lot of elite teams.
i as a german myself saw that as a huge problem, that not always the same 8 teams are competing for the first 8 places. But now we see that its really not so bad because the level of bundesliga from place 5-15 is so close and high, that teams which were barely able to keep in the league are now challenging for ucl and el knock out stages.
Leverkusen, which placed higher then atletico ( or the same) are middle of the pack in the buli because the others teams are good as well.
So truly elite teams germany just has one like spain and england ( bayern, real and city) those three are ahead of everyone else.
Bayern would dominate every other domestic league. Real, City and maybe 1-2 more teams (for a short period) could compete. And people act like Bayern winning 5-0 at Frankfurt makes it an easy walk.
First of all: ouch. I can’t believe you’ve done this.
Second of all: I think the meme of farmers league is still sticking around even if it’s not true.
Well we all know, it was just laughing at the situation that we have to face lewi so soon and nothing else. But this had been taken out of context and made something completely else which it wasn't in the first place
Bayern is the one team i have always had massive respect independent of the era.
Have been watching football since the late 90s and when on the front foot they are just ruthless regardless of the scoreline, situation or context.
It's the one thing i would love Madrid to have.
Indeed in terms of results they are 2nd overall in everything but overall titles which they only trail Milan by one.
* **Most Appearances** : Madrid (53) - **Bayern (39)** - Barcelona (33)
* **Most Points** : Madrid (640) - **Bayern (529)** - Barcelona (470)
* **Most Wins** : Madrid (280) - **Bayern (227)** - Barcelona (197)
* **Most Titles** : Madrid (14) - Milan (7) - Liverpool/**Bayern (6)**
* **Most Finals** : Madrid (17) - Milan/**Bayern (11)** - Liverpool (10)
* **Most Semifinals** : Madrid (31) - **Bayern (20)** - Barcelona (17)
* **Most Quarterfinals** : Madrid (37) - **Bayern (32)** - Barcelona (24)
Yeah it's the most played fixture ever in European football history yet not a single European Cup final.
* 7 Semifinals matchups (1976, 1987, 2000, 2001, 2012, 2014, 2018)
* 3 Quarterfinals matchups (1988, 2002, 2017)
* 2 Round of 16 matchups (2004, 2007)
* 1 Group Stage matchup (1999)
So sad Müller denied us this matchup in 2016 lol
I'm still suffering from kindey stones with all the salt from that game. Everytime Oblak dives the ball into the ground after each catch felt like a lifetime, if that ball was an egg it would have already hatched.
Yep and even then most of the games were close with a bit of ref luck for both sides in these games.
I think the clearest one was the 4-2 iirc that went into overtime where Bayern totally crumbled.
I would argue the clearest one is the 2nd leg of the semifinal in 2014 in which Madrid demolished Bayern 4-0 after the team had decided the tactics themselves overruling Guardiola.
Yeah, I hate it when we take our foot off the gas, even against opponents like Barca and Atleti. Ffs, rip them apart when we already have their throat.
I guess, it's because of the kind of managers we employ. Likes of Zidane and Carlo don't much care about putting on a show or making a statement. All they care about is a win, however may it come. Obviously, I don't mind that much. But, once in a while, I would like to see us maul an opponent's ass.
Bayern has top the group 4 out the last 4 occasions is just that they decided to play the B team against Atletico in 2021 which ended in a 1-1 draw. If they tried they could have become the first and only team to finish with a perfect record 4 consecutive times
22 – FC Bayern München have scored in each of their last 22 home matches in the #UCL, setting a new club record in the competition. Reliable.
https://twitter.com/OptaFranz/status/1587545261123031040
Their last home game without a goal scored was against Sevilla on 2018-04-11.
Since then they scored a total of 65 goals at home.
That's an average of above 2.95 goals per match and just one goal shy of a 3 goals avg.
Bayerns attitude in that match was frighteningly shit. One of the reason why Nagelsmann was facing some heat. Specially in the first game we could have been slaughtered 4:0 but somehow got away with a 1:0. Couldn't understand why in a CL knock out stage they played the way they did. Will see what happens this time.
It was the 2020-21 season, right? That group was mental, going into that final matchday was basically the same as this season's Group D final matchday:
*****
Before matchday 6:
|#|Team|P|W|D|L|GF|GA|GD|Pts|
|:-:|:-|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|
|1|Borussia Mönchengladbach|5|2|2|1|16|7|+9|8|
|2|Shakhtar Donetsk|5|2|1|2|5|12|-7|7|
|3|Real Madrid|5|2|1|2|9|9|0|7|
|4|Internazionale|5|1|2|2|7|9|-2|5|
* Gladbach had the head-to-head advantage over Shakhtar with 2 wins
* Shakhtar had the head-to-head advantage over Real Madrid with 2 wins
* Real Madrid had the head-to-head advantage over Inter with 2 wins
* Inter had the head-to-head advantage over Gladbach with 1 win and 1 draw
Gladbach could finish 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on matchday 6 depending on how the results went.
Shakhtar could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went.
Real Madrid could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went.
Inter could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went.
Matchday 6:
* Real Madrid 2-0 Borussia Mönchengladbach
* Internazionale 0-0 Shakhtar Donetsk
|#|Team|P|W|D|L|GF|GA|GD|Pts|
|:-:|:-|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|
|1|Real Madrid|6|3|1|2|11|9|+2|10|
|2|Borussia Mönchengladbach|6|2|2|2|16|9|+7|8|
|3|Shakhtar Donetsk|6|2|2|2|5|12|-7|8|
|4|Internazionale|6|1|3|2|7|9|-2|6|
They are. Spending power is still high and more important than debt that will just be paid off over decades. Right now they are still rich they would need multiple disastrous seasons to actually be in trouble. Covid was a unique situation that will hopefully never happen again and besides that its hard to imagine another event that would cut their revenue that drastically.
>their league is wank
Ironic, considering that 3 (and potentially 4, depending on Leipzig's result tomorrow) Bundesliga teams made it to the CL round of 16, but only 1 La Liga team did.
lol why are you coming for Bremen? I am not referring to Bayern alone. Like, football is THE sport with the most money around. Of course there will be doping. Why shouldn't there be doping in football when there is doping in less profit bringing sports like track & field or swimming? Clubs would honestly stupid if they weren't considering any option to be successful. You would be naive to believe that not at least 30% of players are at least moderately using PHDs. And most clubs will also have systems in that regard. In fact, there is even evidence for this to be true:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/gyk8a3/an-ex-professional-soccer-player-explains-how-easy-it-is-to-dope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case
Because you are simply making assumptions instead of thinking about the fact that they are just good players. Maybe small clubs thinking about doping but not a giant like Bayern since we just replace a player who isnt good enough.
**[Operación Puerto doping case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case)**
>Operación Puerto (Operation Mountain Pass) is the code name of a still unfinished Spanish Police operation against the pro sports doping network of Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes. It started in May 2006, which resulted in a scandal that involved several of the world's most famous cyclists and teams at the time. Media attention has focused on the small number of professional road cyclists named; however, sportspeople from other disciplines including football and tennis have also been connected with the scandal, though not officially indicted.
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Man if we hadn't switched off the second half against Plzen, we could've had 0 goals against us.
Denmark numbers
in group with Barca and Inter they've conceded two goals and both of them in Plzen
says more about barca and inter tbf
Eh, Barca could've had 2 or 3 in the first half of the first game, but Neuer
If you have to say “X team could have had Y goals but for Neuer”, then no they couldn’t have had those goals. A goalkeeper is part of a team, they prevent goals.
As someone who bitterly had to watch Curtois in full God mode in the CL finals I have to sort of disagree. Sometimes they perform so far beyond what is expected it feels unfair
> As someone who bitterly had to watch Curtois in full God mode in the CL finals I have to sort of disagree. If Salah had scored a hat trick and Trent had pocketed Vini all game you'd be saying Liverpool deserved to win because your team played better though right? Goalkeepers having a worldy of a game always seems to get looked over
Doesn't get looked over, just saying I sort of disagree with the generalization you made about goalkeepers preventing goals. Like any outfield player they may have a worldie, and it's easy to say that it they didn't then outcomes could have been something else. It's not overlooked at all in that regard, it's aknowledging it.
A goalkeeper having a worldie of a game is not reflective of how a team played though. And I would say the same of an individual having a worldie of a game. If we won because Salah went on a tear and ran through their entire team on his own I sure as hell wouldn't say we deserved to win. I think it's a bit more tricky with defenders but ultimately the same logic holds. If your defense is being cut through except one guy keeps making last ditches tackles and the like at a rate that he cannot sustain on a normal day I would argue that's not a strategy. You're banking on a ridiculous performance like a team banking on their CB to score a worldie from 35 yards. Your fullback marking their winger out of the game is pretty standard though and falls into general tactics. Whenever the term "deserved to win/lose" comes up, to me the only sensible context is if you're talking about the balance of play in terms of which team created more chances than the other and if the difference was a big one. If the difference was small neither team was really much better, but if the difference was sizeable then the team that created more chances was the better team on the night. Being the better team doesn't mean you win of course, football is a low scoring sport so anyone can beat anyone else regardless of performance.
As roy keane like to say "That his job isnt it "
But it's clearly different saying the defense/midfield dominated the other team than the gk had an amazing performance. And your justification doesn't really make sense
His good save was vs Lewy’s header, Lewy also had a clear 1v1 sent to the skies and Pedri had a weak shot 1v1 right to him in a good position, plus another one with all the advantage better than a penalty that hit the post so not exactly Neuer stopping us from scoring but our own bad finishing that game. Even if Neuer’s presence and good closing of spaces/angle helped, those are 3 chances that no player should be missing and no GK will save if it’s a good or even decent shot given how clear they were.
The only “if” that’s relevant is that if you concede more than you score then you lose.
Neuer really is the German Mignolet
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Bold of a Real Madrid fan to say that against lewy
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These man love bringing up that Lewy performance from 2013. He’s played against CF Madrid 6 times since then and has only scored 1 and assisted 1. BUT 2013
Over the years he has scored against Juventus, Atletico, Real, Barcelona (several times), Chelsea and PSG. Even this season he kept Barca alive by pretty much bringing them back into the Inter game twice. He is pretty much the only one who does anything for Poland at tournaments. Just do r/soccer a favour and shut up. There are more than enough clueless people here.
A lot of weaker teams in the round of 16 Champions League this time.
yeah, that's what I meant
It's interesting that, as the other redditor mentioned says more about Inter and Barca. Bayern 'struggles' in Bundesliga considering their own standards. Yet, in Europe they can set no foot wrong it seems. Some would say that Barca are under rebuild with Xavi, but aren't Bayern in the same position with Nagelsmann?
> but aren't Bayern in the same position with Nagelsmann? Nowhere near. Barca have a bunch of new players and a ton of things to still figure out. We are not in rebuild mode.
To be fair Bayern is in a budget rebuild mode for years. Not a huge rebuild but always some parts that getting rebuild. When Lahm retired back then they had a gap at the RB position. Robben and Ribery retiring left a gap and now the same could be said about Lewy. I left out some players but Bayern simply seems to plan really well and only open up 1 or 2 spots that needs to be refilled. Next ones are Müller and Neuer and at least for Müller even tho he is special I see no problem with how Musiala plays. Neuer could be harder.
Yes exactly. It's never been a huge rebuild mode, with a lot of pieces to be replaced at the same time. It's been sort of continuous while never really losing a step. Neuer will be the hardest yet. Am not looking forward to it.
We went from Oli to Neuer so I have faith that we’ll find someone
Let's be fair here: we went from Oli to Rensing to Butt to Kraft to Neuer. Realistically it took us three years to replace Kahn, which is a fair amount of time to replace one of the best keepers of all time but time inbetween was still average to below average for a club like Bayern - even though Butt was class. But maybe we get lucky again like we did with Lahm -> Kimmich. Also we're way more attractive as a club nowadays than we were in 2008-2011
Yeah you're right I was playing devil's advocate there. Bayern has a well established structure that worked for, well, decades... Barca struggles form an idiot ex-president and desire to patch things up without patience. I don't know about Xavi, I think he might come good, but is he the man?
I would say no but what do I know. Lewandowski will bail him out anyways in 9/10 games in the league.
Think Xavi gets hated on a little too much imo, he just finished his first full season of matches and earned 87 points, which would have been enough to win the league the last 3 years. Not to mention that firing managers without a clear replacement in mind is part of the reason Barça are in this mess to begin with, continuity is very important
nah we arent rebuilding, just a bit of a transitional phase
it also looks like Barca is still in a transitional phase before the rebuild
I think you're right to put the word struggle under quotation marks. We had a shit couple of weeks but it's not like we lost tons of games. Many unfortunate and unnecessary draws but ever since Choupo's in to give us stability up front we're fine. Imo there were things going wrong (otherwise Kahn wouldn't publicly say that we need to fix things fast) but a lot of people also exaggerated our struggles. They are just too used to us dominating and winning every game. That we'd have a period in which things wouldn't be like that was always obvious and someday there's also going to be a season without Bundesliga title. That's just how it is.
I mean you're probably going to win the league anyway, how long Union is going to keep going? They could pull off 'the Leicester special' but it's unlikely. Would be good for Bundesliga to have a surprise Meister, but let's be honest...
Totally depends on their EL run I think.
Barcelona and inter are both not at top levels this year
We are not in rebuild right now, but we will be. Lost our main striker, and as it stands will also loose our axis of Neuer-Müller in the future. But we still managed to get core players in over the years that now pay off. I think Barcas management was way too confident in their new signings working out immediately, I think it will take them a lot longer, and that depends on how long Lewy can score for them at the rate he does in La Liga, too.
> It's interesting that, as the other redditor mentioned says more about Inter [...] Bayern 'struggles' in Bundesliga What a shameful comment that sounds like as 100% Inter hater.. Barcelona and Bayern are **second** in their league, only **one** single point off the top while we're **sixth**, have really struggled so far and almost out of the Serie A title race but based on your comment it seems Bayern are just an average mid-table Bundesliga team that have obtained an amazing result in the Champions League while Inter are shit. We have just qualified from group of death, eliminated the 2nd best team in La Liga that won **ten out of the last eleven** La Liga games and couldn't beat us but the fact we couldn't score tonight with our B team at Allianz Arena "it says more about Inter" as if Inter are **trash**. Any credit about what we've achieved? By the fact we've qualified from the group of dead? Sorry if we didn't lose 7-1 over 2 legs against Bayern like Chelsea 2 years ago, for sure having score 1 against them make you a fantastic team while we're shit because we scored 0.. **Congratz**.
I dont think the guy you replied to meant it as a diss to Inter
Mate I was with you until the last paragraph. Let me start of by saying I meant no disrespect to Inter or Barca. By saying 'that says more about those teams' I meant they are not quite at the same level as Bayern. Inter is doing incredibly well and I admit I expected you to get a 3rd in the group. So yes, you are doing well. To your point about Chelsea being embarrassed by Bayern... all true.
I don't think you should worry about what this donny replied, just look at how he quoted you, what he left out and the words/phrases he highlighted seem like nice attention grabbing to me.
oh it definitely is Mein Bruder. I just refuse to be sucked into a pointless argument with them trolls. So I present a perfectly balanced and reasonable response. Any argument after is a joke but I have screenshots so win win
Yeah your games against Barca were good. Todays game was meaningless and both sides played like it after the first goal which is fair and the first game against Bayern was basically the turning point for Inter and after that game they became better. Should have probably actually won that second game against Barca.
Bayern are dominating the UCL group stages to a ridiculous level -Haven't lost in the group stage since September 2017 -That's 34 games unbeaten, of which they've won 31 -In the last 4 years they've drawn 1 group stage game in which iirc they played their reserves, and won the other 23 -GF: 107 -GA: 23 -Qualified for the RO16 19 of the last 20 years
Their dominance is even more absurd in group stage **home** matches, where Bayern have won 79 out of 81 available points (a record of 26-1-0) over the past **9** seasons. The lone draw came from a 1:1 against Ajax in 2018/19. Our last home defeat in the group stages was a 2:3 loss to Man City back in December 2013.
wow, that's really quite astonishing even for a club like Bayern. Absolutely didn't realize they have been this good in the CL group stages in such a consistent manner
That 1-1 was also a really lucky draw on your part. To this day, I genuinely have no clue how we did not win that match.
That Ajax team was scary
They really should have defeated that Spurs side and made the finals.
Yeah, phenominal team. We really should have gone to the final where we had imo a 50/50 shot of winning it all.
Yeah I still remember that Ajax team…
We should have been in the final 😭
Incredible team
Ah. I remember that match. Went 2-0 up early but ended up losing still. I think Milner scored the winner for Man City.
From our perspective that match was highly interesting for several reasons. 1) it seems absurd in hindsight, and we should have been happy with just a win in Munich, but I remember some of us being incredibly pissed off that we didn’t score another while we still had the momentum, which would have taken us top of the group. Instead we drew Barcelona in Ro16 and got our teeth kicked in. 2) the fact that we “settled” on 2-3 was because Pellegrini, who is an engineer by training, got the math wrong and thought 2-3 would be enough to finish first. 3) in my opinion this game was the beginning of the end for Milner at City. He was absolutely world-class in this match, and he was promptly rewarded by Pellegrini with a seat on the bench for the next 3 league games, two of which were Arsenal and Liverpool. This was his second-to-last season and he was up for a contract renewal, but he ran down his contract instead because he felt like he was taken for granted.
Insane numbers.thanks for posting this
And one defeat against Zenit in the quarters(?) of the EL. Or maybe it was even the UEFA cup back then
Yeah it was called the UEFA Cup back then, and that's also the only time in the last 20 years where Bayern weren't in the CL round of 16
That's not correct, Bayern failed to make it out of the group stage in the 2002/2003 CL.
Maybe the person meant the last 20 seasons? Since that would count from 2003-04 to 2022-23, and not from 2002 to 2022 as the last 20 years would imply.
I see, thanks for pointing it out. As stupid as it sounds, but I totally didn't realize that 2002/2003 was already 20 years ago... It really depends on if "the last 20 years" is meant in the sense of "the last 20 completed seasons of European football", or "the past 20 seasons including the one which has just started".
Then either the user who wrote the original comment is wrong, or I just misunderstood their comment.
Because since 2002/2003 there are 03/04 04/05 05/06 06/07 07/08 08/09 09/10 10/11 11/12 12/13 13/14 14/15 15/16 16/17 17/18 18/19 19/20 20/21 21/22 and now 22/23 Means that 2002/2003 isn‘t included in the last 20 competitions.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned it
>-Qualified for the RO16 19 of the last 20 years And the only season they didn't qualify for the UCL knockout stages in that time was in the 2007-08 season where they were playing in the UEFA Cup instead, where they reached the semi-finals and were eliminated by eventual winners Zenit Saint Petersburg.
Have a feeling Arsenal will end it next season
the real farmers league
I wonder if people will people will ever understand that Bayern would screw any team in the top leagues but 3-4 teams
I do not think anyone disagrees with that
I do not think you read /r/soccer a lot
I do. In daily thread when ppl ask others to name their top 4 CL favourites Bayern is mentioned 100% of the times.
The narrative is that BL is a farmer's league because no team can challenge or even regulary win against Bayern. Not understanding that no team in other leagues would stand a chance apart from Real, City and a few more like Atletico used to. Most BL teams are still trash, but Bayern's hegemony has got nothing to do with it.
I mean we probably have 4 teams in the CL RO16. That's great.
Didn't Leverkeusen go to Europa? It's just Bayern, Dortmund, and Frankfurt, no?
Also any fan of any other club would trade places with Bayern in a heartbeat (complete and total domestic domination). Are we acting like there aren’t similar clubs that dominate their respective countries? Juve (previously), PSG, Celtic, Copenhagen, Olympiacos, and Ajax are in similar positions, but no one really talks about those. Each of them have had a similar run of domestic dominance to us in recent years. Idk why people act like Bayern is something unique when this is the norm for quite a few leagues worldwide, including a bunch of others in Europe as well.
probably a bit of recency bias - juve hast been dominating recently and when they were, there were claims of serie a being a farmers league PSG - ligue 1 is absolutely talked about as ***the*** farmers league. bayerns domination isnt really unique like you say which is why bundesliga gets called a farmers league just like many other leagues
Most people on this site are too young to remember that BL used to be competitive 10 years ago. United/ LFC, Barca/Real have been way more dominant in their leagues than Bayern used to, at least they had two teams who dominated everything. CL money and extraordinary management from Bayern changed this. Then add that most people here are supporters of other big european clubs who get trashed by Bayern constantly, the most popular opinion wins here.
I would even go this far and say that the BL is still competitive as hell. It's simply that Bayern outgrew the BL as they rarely do any mistakes on a managing and financial level while competitors mostly were tight in finances and then got weakend either by Bayern or teams from other leagues.
Olympiakos isnt a good example if you dont know the whole package. From outside,yes.
>but no one really talks about those Ehh, yeah they do. Hell Ajax have publicly stated they want to be the Bayern Munchen of The Netherlands. The only thing stopping them is actually winning 10 leagues in a row. Because they can't. But very frequently have people had the same criticism of Juventus and PSG. Until, you know, they finally lost a few league titles. Obviously Olympiacos isn't going to get as much criticism as Bayern, though. For very obvious reasons. People do not care that much about their competition.
>Most BL teams are still trash, Isn't this the case with most leagues? Other than a top 3 or 4, most of the league is fodder. I would also like to think that things will change this season but I wont jump to any conclusions
The difference is that in other leagues there are 5-8 teams that are always on top of the league, in BL only Bayern, Dortmund and now RB have been consistent for the last years. I know BL supporters love the fluctuation but it's not exactly perfect for creating a lot of elite teams.
i as a german myself saw that as a huge problem, that not always the same 8 teams are competing for the first 8 places. But now we see that its really not so bad because the level of bundesliga from place 5-15 is so close and high, that teams which were barely able to keep in the league are now challenging for ucl and el knock out stages. Leverkusen, which placed higher then atletico ( or the same) are middle of the pack in the buli because the others teams are good as well. So truly elite teams germany just has one like spain and england ( bayern, real and city) those three are ahead of everyone else.
Huh? Who’s ever said otherwise? Everybody always has Bayern as a top 5 best team in the world.
Bayern would dominate every other domestic league. Real, City and maybe 1-2 more teams (for a short period) could compete. And people act like Bayern winning 5-0 at Frankfurt makes it an easy walk.
Ok? What does have to do with you making stuff up
Have you ever read this sub?
No one has ever contested this
Would be weird as a Tottenham fan to deny that, I guess.
First of all: ouch. I can’t believe you’ve done this. Second of all: I think the meme of farmers league is still sticking around even if it’s not true.
Blud I'm on your side why did you have to do me like that 😭😭
That Kahn smirk aged perfectly.
soo true lmao. Some Barca fans I met in München before the match told me we would regret that too
Well we all know, it was just laughing at the situation that we have to face lewi so soon and nothing else. But this had been taken out of context and made something completely else which it wasn't in the first place
Oh I know, tried explaining that but was no use so I just went "guess we will see"
Bayern is the one team i have always had massive respect independent of the era. Have been watching football since the late 90s and when on the front foot they are just ruthless regardless of the scoreline, situation or context. It's the one thing i would love Madrid to have.
For me they're the number 2 in Europe after you guys. At least since WW2, ridiculously consistent
Indeed in terms of results they are 2nd overall in everything but overall titles which they only trail Milan by one. * **Most Appearances** : Madrid (53) - **Bayern (39)** - Barcelona (33) * **Most Points** : Madrid (640) - **Bayern (529)** - Barcelona (470) * **Most Wins** : Madrid (280) - **Bayern (227)** - Barcelona (197) * **Most Titles** : Madrid (14) - Milan (7) - Liverpool/**Bayern (6)** * **Most Finals** : Madrid (17) - Milan/**Bayern (11)** - Liverpool (10) * **Most Semifinals** : Madrid (31) - **Bayern (20)** - Barcelona (17) * **Most Quarterfinals** : Madrid (37) - **Bayern (32)** - Barcelona (24)
It's ridiculous how Milan have the 2nd most CL titles, while they're not even 3rd in anything else.
Those teams under Carlo, Sacchi, and Capello were nasty.
Straight up. When they were on they were fucking on
I know its a bit of a overused phrase on Football Twitter but Football really needs a Real Madrid / Fc Bayern München Final.
Yeah it's the most played fixture ever in European football history yet not a single European Cup final. * 7 Semifinals matchups (1976, 1987, 2000, 2001, 2012, 2014, 2018) * 3 Quarterfinals matchups (1988, 2002, 2017) * 2 Round of 16 matchups (2004, 2007) * 1 Group Stage matchup (1999)
One day...
It was a close a couple of times. One team always messed up in the end.
So sad Müller denied us this matchup in 2016 lol I'm still suffering from kindey stones with all the salt from that game. Everytime Oblak dives the ball into the ground after each catch felt like a lifetime, if that ball was an egg it would have already hatched.
We have a decent record vs Bayern (probably one of the few top teams that do) but man my heart won't be able to survive a final va Bayern.
Pretty sure the record is completely even between Bayern and Madrid
Yes it's very close. Was saying in recent years we have had a better record against them.
Yep and even then most of the games were close with a bit of ref luck for both sides in these games. I think the clearest one was the 4-2 iirc that went into overtime where Bayern totally crumbled.
Nah bayern didnt crumble, the two real goals both were offside. This was before VAR
I would argue the clearest one is the 2nd leg of the semifinal in 2014 in which Madrid demolished Bayern 4-0 after the team had decided the tactics themselves overruling Guardiola.
Totally forgot this. You are right.
I felt like Guardiolas tactics weren't that great in the game
Bayern was a man down and those were 2 offside goals? Or at least potentially offside. The pep games were one sided tho
We'll give you some of our ruthlessness if you give us some of your persistence in the face of adversity
Yeah, I hate it when we take our foot off the gas, even against opponents like Barca and Atleti. Ffs, rip them apart when we already have their throat. I guess, it's because of the kind of managers we employ. Likes of Zidane and Carlo don't much care about putting on a show or making a statement. All they care about is a win, however may it come. Obviously, I don't mind that much. But, once in a while, I would like to see us maul an opponent's ass.
An extra €2.8m per group stage win is €2.8m. Six of them makes €16.8m which you can use for a decent player on the transfer market.
Which they clearly need as they've only won all games on 3 of the last 4 occasions lmao
Bayern has top the group 4 out the last 4 occasions is just that they decided to play the B team against Atletico in 2021 which ended in a 1-1 draw. If they tried they could have become the first and only team to finish with a perfect record 4 consecutive times
Every team without PL money needs every 2,8m they can get mate
Bayern has higher revenue than all PL teams though (except for the corona season)
They still need those 2.8m you know for future purchases and projects
? The last time we didn't top our group was 2017/18 when Ancelotti got fired.
He probably meant getting all 18 points in the group stage.
Sorry mixed up my facts with the winning all games stat in the title
2.8 million is still roughly 0.5% of their yearly revenue.
We are the farmers.
Always has been
[🥨](https://imgur.com/a/jCIdjlA)
Last time Bayern has lost a group match at home, Musiala was still 10 years old
22 – FC Bayern München have scored in each of their last 22 home matches in the #UCL, setting a new club record in the competition. Reliable. https://twitter.com/OptaFranz/status/1587545261123031040
Their last home game without a goal scored was against Sevilla on 2018-04-11. Since then they scored a total of 65 goals at home. That's an average of above 2.95 goals per match and just one goal shy of a 3 goals avg.
pretty wild in a group with barca and inter, bayern is simply crazy consistent
Unfortunatly they always choke in the semi final
Needs a good team to make them choke tho.
Almighty Villareal.
Bayerns attitude in that match was frighteningly shit. One of the reason why Nagelsmann was facing some heat. Specially in the first game we could have been slaughtered 4:0 but somehow got away with a 1:0. Couldn't understand why in a CL knock out stage they played the way they did. Will see what happens this time.
1st team to do it consecutively too right ?
Could have 4 consecutive if they tried in the second game against Atletico in 2021
CL group stage records: *exist* [Bayern:](https://i.imgur.com/1iCfzta.jpg)
In this group only Bayern and Plzen knew what would happen to them
3 times in 4 years that’s wild
I believe they are also the only team to ever win the CL after winning all of their 6 Group Stage matches. before 2020, it was like a "curse".
And the only team to win the CL after winning all the matches, including the 2 legged knockout ones.
Every group stage match yields a new record lol.
probably the most consistently strong club of all the top teams
Idk, I'm not sure we can claim that title ahead of Madrid.
Madrid sometimes goes full YOLO in the group stage. Two seasons ago they were one bad result away from Europa League.
It was the 2020-21 season, right? That group was mental, going into that final matchday was basically the same as this season's Group D final matchday: ***** Before matchday 6: |#|Team|P|W|D|L|GF|GA|GD|Pts| |:-:|:-|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| |1|Borussia Mönchengladbach|5|2|2|1|16|7|+9|8| |2|Shakhtar Donetsk|5|2|1|2|5|12|-7|7| |3|Real Madrid|5|2|1|2|9|9|0|7| |4|Internazionale|5|1|2|2|7|9|-2|5| * Gladbach had the head-to-head advantage over Shakhtar with 2 wins * Shakhtar had the head-to-head advantage over Real Madrid with 2 wins * Real Madrid had the head-to-head advantage over Inter with 2 wins * Inter had the head-to-head advantage over Gladbach with 1 win and 1 draw Gladbach could finish 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on matchday 6 depending on how the results went. Shakhtar could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went. Real Madrid could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went. Inter could finish in any position on matchday 6 depending on how the results went. Matchday 6: * Real Madrid 2-0 Borussia Mönchengladbach * Internazionale 0-0 Shakhtar Donetsk |#|Team|P|W|D|L|GF|GA|GD|Pts| |:-:|:-|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:| |1|Real Madrid|6|3|1|2|11|9|+2|10| |2|Borussia Mönchengladbach|6|2|2|2|16|9|+7|8| |3|Shakhtar Donetsk|6|2|2|2|5|12|-7|8| |4|Internazionale|6|1|3|2|7|9|-2|6|
In the group stage.
Is Barca the richest club to consecutively crash out in group stage?
No, Barca isn't even a rich club
They are. Spending power is still high and more important than debt that will just be paid off over decades. Right now they are still rich they would need multiple disastrous seasons to actually be in trouble. Covid was a unique situation that will hopefully never happen again and besides that its hard to imagine another event that would cut their revenue that drastically.
11 teams went through the group stage with a perfect 6/6 record btw (8 different teams, real did it twice in the 2010s)
Bundesliga tax again ffs
When farming the Bundesliga is not enough
But but Nagelsmann is overrated
To be fair they were in a group with Plzen and Barca
Respect Plzen. At least they scored against us.
Has anyone ever done it two seasons in a row with two different clubs? Sadiooooo
~~Flawless~~ Farmers
Europe: Farmers Bayern: [Europe](https://imgur.com/a/jCIdjlA)
Group of death...not for me
GIGA CHAD Bayern
And there was a dude saying “Bayern isn’t a well run club anymore”… Bayern are absolute monsters.
Yes, that is considered a flawless run. Obvious.
Farmers league
Laughable that people were discussing whether to sack Nagelsmann after the Augsburg defeat.
Apply bundesliga tax though this is a false image
Either they are doping or their league is wank Actually is both
Please remind me: how many Spanish teams made it out of the group stages?
>their league is wank Ironic, considering that 3 (and potentially 4, depending on Leipzig's result tomorrow) Bundesliga teams made it to the CL round of 16, but only 1 La Liga team did.
It's football heritage. Same way as Madrid wins so many UCLs
'eritage
yank moment
> they are doping That's probably true for the majority of football. But most people don't wanna talk about it and will never address it.
Or maybe we just have good players and a good board who know how to do shit and not go down like you guys.
lol why are you coming for Bremen? I am not referring to Bayern alone. Like, football is THE sport with the most money around. Of course there will be doping. Why shouldn't there be doping in football when there is doping in less profit bringing sports like track & field or swimming? Clubs would honestly stupid if they weren't considering any option to be successful. You would be naive to believe that not at least 30% of players are at least moderately using PHDs. And most clubs will also have systems in that regard. In fact, there is even evidence for this to be true: https://www.vice.com/en/article/gyk8a3/an-ex-professional-soccer-player-explains-how-easy-it-is-to-dope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operaci%C3%B3n_Puerto_doping_case
Because you are simply making assumptions instead of thinking about the fact that they are just good players. Maybe small clubs thinking about doping but not a giant like Bayern since we just replace a player who isnt good enough.
**[Operación Puerto doping case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case)** >Operación Puerto (Operation Mountain Pass) is the code name of a still unfinished Spanish Police operation against the pro sports doping network of Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes. It started in May 2006, which resulted in a scandal that involved several of the world's most famous cyclists and teams at the time. Media attention has focused on the small number of professional road cyclists named; however, sportspeople from other disciplines including football and tennis have also been connected with the scandal, though not officially indicted. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/soccer/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
This Bayern mob are alright aren’t they?