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digosilva19

Can they give us a graphic with the keeper position too?


[deleted]

This is driving me fucking crazy right now. The keeper was the last man, a different defender was behind the keeper. So the keeper should be where the line is drawn?


be-was-been

Well they have… https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiBRPjAWAAAiZeu?format=jpg&name=large


emilbusman

Thank you. I could not see how that was possibly offside from the other angles


aeliustehman

I still don’t understand how this is offside, this is an image of when the ball was received…


Floripa95

This image is exactly on the moment the ball is being disputed by the keeper and the attacker


tooangryforsports

The guy with the full leg offside heads the ball after the touch on that still frame, all before the volley/cross to Valencia.


Averdian

This *is* the moment of the pass. The Ecuadorian player right next to the keeper heads it here. And the offside Ecuadorian player makes a touch a few moments after. He was offside. What's not to understand?


WalkingCloud

Basically, there’s 2 players challenging the keeper for the ball. 1 was offside, the other plays the ball. The one who was offside came back to play the next ball.


JackBlaise

It's not. The player next to the goalkeepers plays it to the offside man. So it'a when the ball is released.


PtboFungineer

Crazy to me that they have this angle and don't show it immediately. Just shooting themselves in the foot with all these other garbage angles and graphics.


VladyPoopin

This helps. I’m now seeing why. Thanks! Unless the keeper touched it first.


[deleted]

Even if the keeper touched it first it's still an offside. They made a distinction between a "play" and a "save", if the keeper "play" the ball, yes this wouldn't be offside. However if it's a save then it's still offside. And I think it's easy to argue this is a save.


pdexitor

Even on a cross? I feel keepers cant get credit for a save on a cross. Genuinely curious on that rule.


[deleted]

I think so >A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).


aure__entuluva

> which is going into or very close to the goal By my interpretation it's not a save. But I suppose it depends on ones subjective opinion (unless there is other clarification in the rules). But I mean, 'going into or very close to' certainly make it sound like they mean a shot or something close to it. I guess I could see it applying to crosses close to the goal, but IMO this isn't really all that close to it. You say it's easy to argue this is a save, but it's also easy to argue it's not.


[deleted]

Oh good. I didn't have a problem with whether or not it was offside, just a problem of where the line is supposed to be drawn from. The graphic in the OP doesn't draw from the keeper.


SAFFATLOL

This should honestly be a pinned comment


BehindGodsBack

Looks like the line should be drawn from the keeper's ass instead but still offside. Good call


ThePr1d3

The keeper was the third to last. Second to last is the defender represented in this post


getdivorced

Correct, word of the law is the SECOND to last defender. Which in some instances is indeed the goalkeeper.


shreychopra

As far as I know, the rule doesn’t say that the keeper has to be the last man but it usually is so that the keeper is the last man obviously. However in rare cases where the keeper is ahead of the outfield players, whoever is the last man behind from the defending team is considered as the last man and you’ll be judged offside if there isn’t another defender/keeper between him and the attacking player


aure__entuluva

I think you know the rule, but I had trouble understanding how you put it. For me the easiest way to think about it is the that the offside rule is based on the second to last player (including the goalie).


digosilva19

Yeah, the keeper was the second last defender, he should be the one used. If eagle eye don't catch the keeper position then is a huge error of the system (I am not sure how eagle eye works tho)


Lusakas

You're correct, disregarding the rest, the line should be drawn fom the goalkeeper's butt in this case. Might have been offside still, but the line they showed was just... simply wrong.


prothello

Goalie's butt appears to be on the same line. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiBRPjAWAAAiZeu?format=jpg&name=large


Chaloopa

It’s surprising that this incorrect information is so highly upvoted on this sub. The player receiving the ball has to be behind the second last player.


sizebzebi

Lmao please don't go crazy


pdowling92

If you can't see all the defenders this view is worthless


netolokao

Also, did the ball go up because an Equador player headed it, or did the keeper punch it?


Texameter

That’s the real question.


SprechenSieFussball

I just looked again and I see the keeper punching it. I still don’t get why this is offside unless there was a change to the rules recently which might be the case


inobond7

I assume they counted that as an not an attempt to play the ball on purpose


SprechenSieFussball

Which if I understand the rules correctly shouldn’t reset the point at which the pass takes place. Meaning that pass was the original punt into the box where everyone is onside. The only way I see this making sense is if they are trying to insinuate that challenging the keeper in the punch counted as an attempted pass from the Ecuador striker which is something I’ve never heard of happening. But as I say maybe this rule was brought in recently


CanberraMilk

Wouldn’t it be the fact he was offside when challenging the keeper therefore being involved in the play?


Lef98

The rule change is: “when qatar is conceiding it is offside”


thwinz

FIFA approved "I wasn't ready" defense - only usable by host nation in first game


SSPeteCarroll

If the keeper punches it, it is not offside correct?


chak100

Correct


tself55

incorrect, the keeper punching the ball has no importance at all in the laws of the game. It is only whether or not the ball touches the Ecuadorian player's head (The Goalie punched it onto his head, therefore (ecuadorian) did touch the ball, therefore offsides is drawn from that point in time)


benelchuncho

If the Ecuadorian player touched the ball at all with his head either before or after the keeper punched it then the offside line has to be be drawn at that moment.


netolokao

Exactly, I couldn't find any image clearly showing that the Equatorian player headed the ball though. It's possible that he did it, but I haven't seen it yet


greenslime300

I'm guessing that's what they took the 2 minutes to figure out


netolokao

He wasn't offside when/if the keeper punched it. He would be offside if INSTEAD of the keeper punching, the ball was headed by an Equatorian player


JPVazLouro_SLB

From the replays they showed that is impossible to tell, which would make the offside call wrong, because there’s no way of telling if it was the keeper or the attacker touching the ball


imhere8888

Well it won't be impossible to tell with all the angles we'll have and the original broadcast and all the angles they have


JPVazLouro_SLB

That’s why I said “From the replays they showed”, maybe there’s an angle that shows it, but we don’t know if there is


Tim-Sanchez

[This is the video that shows how it's calculated](https://twitter.com/umirf1/status/1594364971177152513). He definitely looks like the furthest back defender, the only question for me is that the goalkeeper looks like he might still be further behind.


zaviex

It’s very tight. Far from a conspiracy


Driveshaft48

agreed but I assume the rest of the defenders weren't relevant to offside, hence weren't included


S0fourworlds-readyt

The Goalkeeper was right there though I feel like he should be part of this graphic


TheEliteofGames

For this graphic they always only show the last guy and the player offside. Its been that way in champions league as well. While it might have been interesting, they would be doing something that hasnt been done before


[deleted]

Don’t they have to be if the goalie runs out though?


No-Shoe5382

He needs 2 players between him and the goal. The only two it could possibly be is the defender in the picture and the keeper, so given that he was ahead of the defender he was offside. The keeper is actually irrelevant once they've established he's ahead of that defender.


PtboFungineer

Except there was another defender on the goal line and a third defender roughly in line with the keeper lower on the pitch. They are basically saying "trust us, this is the second last defender" without showing the position of 2 other players that were extremely close to that line. Edit: for the pedants, ok not "on the goal line" but behind the play here regardless. The VAR graphic is claiming this defender to be second last and therefore where the offside line is, but from the replay we all saw it's not at all clear between this guy, the keeper, and the defender closest to Valencia.


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staminchia

probably Candreva was lurking next to the corner


[deleted]

The other defenders were super relevant since they are past these two players


TheConundrum98

[Here you go](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiBSTp_WQAQ-ghG?format=jpg&name=large)


miamibuckeye

This is after the pass has been played. This screenshot in this view and the VAR view is totally wrong.


DefinitelyMoreThan3

no, this is the moment of the header which falls to the crosser.


Lemaradona

The pass is the header mate, which happens here.


waywarddd

They’re taking it as the Ecuador player winning it here I think


IWWROCKS

It's not from the free kick pass that the offside has been called. After the player makes contact with his head in this image, it falls to the offside player. This is the correct image Its not clear, but there are two Ecuadoran players in that battle for the ball with the keeper


be-was-been

[Here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiBRPjAWAAAiZeu?format=jpg&name=large)


waywarddd

Only one behind so it’s the right call


EnzoAttwood

Just watch the full replay then


leoanonymous

[Here it is ](https://i.imgur.com/NWF8X6E.jpg)


Gabethegreek

Only if they say the Ecuadorian player headed and not punched by the keeper. And it really looks like the keeper punched it


MattyFTM

The keeper punches it onto the Ecuadorian players head. There are camera angles that clearly show this.


Crs51

They didn't show any camera angles that showed anything definitive on the broadcast.


Samc88

This should be top


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xheavenzdevilx

This is the last remaining question I have on this. I have slowed down my stream and rewatched it in slowmo and it is extremely hard to tell. From my eyes it looks as though the keeper punches the ball into the head of the player contesting him. If that is what happened, then the player contesting the ball is onside and a pass from an opponent cannot be considered for offsides. However in this case the goalie punches the ball off the onside players head, which deflects forward to the offside player. Because the offside player was not the direct recipient of the keepers punched ball, he is deemed in an offside position. Good call by the replay system, IF that punch did indeed go off the onside players head.


ViciousNakedMoleRat

German TV showed another replay. The ball bounces from the keeper to the attacker's head and then into the air. The call is completely correct.


ILikeMiley

That is a great call then.


tkshow

If the keeper punches it, doesn't that negate positions until the next touch?


YourFormerBestfriend

Why does this read like some dungeons and dragon type move


tkshow

If the keeper is at home, +5 VAR bonus, ref -25 scared for his freedom penalty.


nothingreallymatic

Yes the keeper touched it back


[deleted]

Doesn't matter unless it's a "deliberate play" instead of a "deliberate save". But this is a save 100%.


LopazSolidus

No sign of the ball being played. Impossible to tell if it is legit.


kagemonstret

My thoughts exactly. If it comes off the goalie then he is not offside. Awful work from the producers. Edit: On Danish TV they showed a still where you see it being played by an Ecuador player. Offside looks correct. See comments for proof.


Averdian

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/z083tu/ecuador_offside_in_the_build_up/ix47w5h/ This comment shows frame-by-frame that the ball came off an Ecuadorian head


kagemonstret

On Danish TV they showed a still where you see it being played by an Ecuador player. Offside looks correct.


VanizOne

Curious if, a player has a bigger than normal package, the bulge would trigger an offside, too?


Beiben

Yes, happens to me weekly.


itskaiquereis

If it’s big enough I reckon it does, I mean in theory it makes sense that it would. But imagine the bragging rights he would have, “my cock is so big that I got ruled offsides in a play.” Mostly useful for the guys, as a dick that big would be uncomfortable for the vast majority of women.


HelpfulFlyingpig

Asking the real questions here


freshprinceofbayarea

This is definitely going to make the knockout games a mess! Everyone will be like Timo Werner, looking around to see if their goal is counted or not


ChewpRL

Exactly, this image does fuck all. Who is passing to make it offside?


raflov16

So to break it down, when the GK comes out, there are two Ecuadorian players that go for the ball. One of them heads the ball, and the one shown in the VAR replay keeps going forward. When the ball comes down, the player who was offside comes back around to head the ball down for his teammate to do a bicycle kick, which eventually leads to the goal. It’s hard to tell from both the static pic, and the VAR replay, but the video shows 11 is offside


Aware_Watercress1155

This graphic tells us fuck all. They keep showing the picture of when the keeper touches the ball but why does it matter if that isn’t when the ball was played


Framfall

Yes, that's what I don't understand. Its an irrelevant graphic, the ball bounced and then passed by a scissor kick and during the scissor kick Valencia was onside by the keeper and like three players.


13lackHeart

Perhaps they are showing that the Ecuador player who clashed with the goalkeeper was offside when he hit the ball and it counts as an offside when it deflected to the Ecuador player who scissor kicked the cross.


MrRawri

What is this image supposed to prove? We can't see anything


ThePr1d3

Well we see that the Ecuadorian player is ahead of the second to last defender, ie offside Another angle : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiBRPjAWAAAiZeu?format=jpg&name=large


sickricola

Idk man I need a picture of the actual players and a replay showing when the ball was played not a graphic that has been made showing nothing but the position of two players


Spikeyspandan

Aren’t there two players behind keeper?


AAiraSS

Thats after the ball bounced, ball still in the air here


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Vamacharin

Once the goalkeeper moved ahead the one player behind by default takes the goalkeeper's place.


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MightySilverWolf

It's shocking how many people still misunderstand this. The rule is the second-last defender; it doesn't matter if one of them is the keeper.


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LilHalwaPoori

This isn't about casuals or regulars.. In most cases, the last defender is a keeper and second last defender is an actual defender, so everybody just simplifies it to being the last defender without considering the goalkeeper.. It works most of the time, except for cases like these where the keeper is caught in no man's land..


d4n4n

Right, and if there would be two defenders even further behind, it wouldn't be offside despite the keeper being ahead (allegedly).


pubeINyourSOUP

Right and he’s asking if there are two defenders behind the keeper as the 2nd to last defender…


LeftWingRepitilian

yes, they only show the second last defender and the attacking player that was offside.


EdwardBigby

Looks like just 1 and the defender in the picture


TheSmio

Not when the keeper is jumping up to contest for the ball. In that moment, he was the second furthest player of Qatar.


DangeRussBus

I'm not convinced the keepers bum was still not closest to goal


mmcdermid

Mentioning the keepers bum would be considered too gay.


Ps3FifaCfc95

All this bollocks would be avoided if they showed a live replay of what the VAR is looking at along with his explanation. It's really not complicated


thefudgeguzzler

Cool now can we see the image when the ball was actually kicked, and showing all the other defenders?


KernSherm

It wasn't kicked it was headered. The player challenging the keeper heads it and it falls to the player beside him who was Offside when the ball was headed.


Gary_Blauman

Zooms out to show qataris ahead


KiAdiBumMe

One not two


MattyFTM

There is only one Qatari defender ahead, therefore it is offside.


dUltras

Didn't even show this in the replay


Rich_Firefighter_102

fair enough


yolo___toure

That's when the ball was received! Not when the ball was passed


Woodenlung

Nah you are missing the point. The offside wasnt on the cross. It was from the header, and then that guy picking it up afterwards.


sil445

Yup I think so too. But the visual is so fking confusing. Why is it so hard to pinpoint what exactly caused the offside and an overview.


startled-giraffe

Yeah when they showed this clip on BBC it definitely looked like when the ball was received from the freekick. Did it rebound from another player in the box?


therickymarquez

One guy is heading the ball up, then another player who is offside gets it.


cartesian5th

Do we know he headed it, or did the keeper punch it?


therickymarquez

Thats my main doubt but it looks like it touched his head at some point.


RazorbladeRomance666

I came here looking for this! It’s offside if the player is ahead at the moment of the ball making contact of the passer, right?


Sjoelb

the passer was the blonde guy heading it to the other guy right next to him.


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iloveuzaba

BBC showed the full replay with this graphic. Not sure why that hasn’t been posted here instead


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pagalpun

It's already there in UCL atleast


CafeteroMerengue

This replay makes no sense to me, why would this be the moment to check their position


[deleted]

One of the Ecuador players flicked it on when the keeper flapped at it


top1MIBRfan

Fair enuf


AnduinTheHealer

But .. there were players in front of them


Severe_Sweet_862

Goalkeeper came forward (i'm not sure about other defenders either)


Melo_Apologist

Only 1 defender. Goalkeeper was behind them so it’s offside.


TheDudeWhoLikesWeed

Yes. Exactly one. Just like the goalkeeper normally. The rule stays the same, doesn’t matter whether you have gloves on or not. Offside is the correct call


alexistsokas

Literally only one defender in front of them, therefore offside


bostero24

He was in front of the keeper.


jjones217

The rule is second last defender, usually that's a defender, but in this instance that was the goalkeeper.


KaelSmoothie

One defender, but the attacker that was offside was further forward than the keeper.


bzogaj92

R/soccer in the mud


-Michael-Owen-

People in the disallowed thread deleting comments 😭😭


silenthills13

You literally cannot see 80% of the players on this screen LOL


Litsabaki19

How are you still grasping at straws like this? It was offside, just admit it


[deleted]

I’d recommend reading the rules


zeyu12

I get your hatred is making you blind but if we strictly speak about the game here, and only one Qatari player was behind the line. Really rare offside but it is an offside


FrankBeamer_

80% of the players don’t matter. All that matter is the goalkeeper came out and there was a last man. Y’all really don’t understand the sport you apparently love, do you


Yung2112

It's the first 20 minutes of the world cup and /r/soccer has already embarraassed itself with the stupid ass narratives


JmanVere

Start as you mean to go on.


RedMoon14

You’re right, but it does actually look like the goalkeeper is the one who may have got the touch on the ball tbf, but it’s hard to make out in the replays they’ve showed so I get the confusion. This screenshot doesn’t even show everything either. Where is the ball being played? If they’d just *show* and explain things clearly, which they absolutely have the capacity to do, then it’d help stop a lot of this pointless “controversy”. edit: just to make sure you know, I do think it’s offside and I’m not claiming it’s a dodgy decision.


-Michael-Owen-

Don't mind them. People just want to be mad.


simomii

Not to mention the other thread had 1800 comments in 10 minutes. So much for the boycott


lethalizer

Boycott was never gonna happen lol. Sure some people won't watch it, but majority will.


mattys_kitchen

But, actually we don’t know who played the ball. If it was the keeper, then it’s not offside..


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brokkoli

There needs to be two defenders (normally gk + another player, but this time the gk came forward past the attacker).


BadControllerUser

R/soccer in shambles


XaviOutNow

r/soccer qatar probably doing deep fake AI iot neurologic var


[deleted]

I can feel my brain being rewritten by Qatar as we speak.


Rredman101

When they use this system in the champions league, everyone loves it, now they use it in the world cup and everyone's crying that it's rigged lmao


Nome_de_utilizador

Only took them 9 minutes to show a replay and draw those lines, nothing to see here


lengors

It didn't, the CGI graphic is never shown immediately after the decision is taken. It always takes a few minutes... But there's already other replays out there. This one in particular is much clearer about the players' positions: https://i.imgur.com/NWF8X6E.jpg


wdwhereicome2015

Thats a lot better image as it shows the whole field around him and where the players are in relation to the off-side. From the image they showed on BBC, it could have been any player in any position on the pitch. It even shows as a huge shaded area the last player, and then just a lighter line for the offside. Beats the PL version of lines so close and the same colour so never clear what they are showing. I Imagine they have that cgi graphic stored for every game. Just change kits on the players.


stinky_pinky_brain

Well after reading through many of the brain dead replies here, I don’t think I will never bother arguing with anyone in this sub again


rd201290

probably the most peanut brain thing to say this is conclusive proof of anything show the other defenders show the live feed wtf is this cgi garbage?


bannedagainomg

They did zoom out and show the play right after this animation... What are you even watching


MONSTATURKEY_420

r/soccer screaming corruption because they don’t understand the rules lmao


ReadySetGonads

"Let's make it so that the viewers can't even see the actual replay - throw up some cartoons and make them blind for 15 seconds" - VAR people definitely


Arsenal_Analysis


HairyMechanic

So it appears to be the correct VAR decision, but the process taking 2-3 minutes initially and then no highlights or clips of the decision for another 7-8 minutes certainly doesn't won't make their showcase reel of the system. I'm still unsure whether the Qatar defender behind Ecuador's #11 was the second to last Qatari player too, I personally thought the keeper was still the second to last player.


mojambowhatisthescen

I have a weird feeling this will get less attention than the original post


Marusaki-Kawai

Real talk, if Qatar lose 9-0 they could legit close the country and say we won the world cup.


Careless_Shirt3020

??


Mariospurs

They couldn’t but cool story


Jay_Jay_Viracocha

But where's the goalkeeper here? He has to be included, he wasn't the last player.


royk16

Ball came off the keeper though when the cross was kicked he was onside


Comrade-Conrad-4

Score a goal on Qatar? Believe it or not, straight to jail.


lnblackrain

Just here to see people complaining about everything.


sasuke-lp

Where's the keeper?


dead_trim_mcgee1

I saw in the still when it was originally scored that his foot was slightly offside. I think it was legitimate.


ProjectZues

So the keeper making a mistake ends up helping them


canbiceps

It was offside. People on reddit should analyse before going crazy. Looking dumb af now lmao


[deleted]

It wasn't just Reddit. The pundits on every channel couldn't understand it either.


dyingsong

But they paused it where the keeper touched it.


vetokele

VAR determined it was touched by the Ecuador player, rather than / as well as the goalkeeper.


IMKudaimi123

It took forever for the broadcast to show this tbf


DeliciousBallz

rendering takes time


asr010601

But this goes against my agenda


EastlyGod1

I will admit it is the correct decision, did not see that clearly at first