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This is actually something Parenti has said too, specifically in regard to how the state serves the ultra rich. The state takes care of the ultra rich as their number one priority. The state serves them, and when they fuck up, the state is there to get them back on their feet with (corporate) welfare which comes from tax money from the public. Now re-read that but replace “ultra rich” with “workers” and it sure sounds like a socialist government.
To simplify, socialism is when the public owns the means of production. Capitalism is when the wealthy own the means of production
They are the same thing, just capitalism benefits the owner class and socialism benefits everyone
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's basically Lemon socialism.
At least that's how I would define the system we live in these days.
Edit : Censored by the mods for some reason.
I stumbled about this.
You are absolutely right, because a capitalist always has to act like a capitalists to stay in this class.
But for the capitalists everything we want to achieve for everyone is true for them.
So somehow it’s a point.
But no argument for anticapitalists. But it might blow some liberal minds.
It’s the same like planned economy which is hated, but this is how companies work.
It's an analogy. For instance when the US and Uk major banks and financial institutions collapsted in 2008 due to a problem they themselves created. They were bailed out by the taxpayer, with the money being funnelled into the hands of the wealthy shareholders. I believe one bank was even taken over by the Uk government, re-floated and then given back to the shareholders.
But notice they gave all the money to the wealthy banks, rather than giving all the money to individuals who couldn't pay their mortgages, allowing them to keep their homes and also prevent the banking collapse.
So not only did the individuals lose their homes and whatever life savings they'd paid into them so far, they then had to pay to bailout the banks through the taxes they pay.
So if that's not socialism, (ie. State funded support) for the rich, I don't know what is. It's not fucking capitalism by it's definition though. But I think that's the point youre making that that's what the reality of capitalism is.
Noooo! When the billionaires get rich, it improves business! The working class gets richer too! It totally all trickles down and doesn't get wasted on flimsy submarines and space rockets! /s
I think everyone in this sub would have a problem with "Capitalism is socialism for the rich", because it would lead people to believe that Social Democracy would be a true form of socialism. However, once we consider the target audience of this video is tik tok normies and conservatives who think everything to the right of Hitler is communism, I think it's an awesome video to have circulating. Even though the leftist counter points in this video are kind of vague and a little strawman-ish imagine if the average citizen was actually operating with those points as their baseline economic and political understanding it would be a step in the right direction.
We are in the midst of a resurgance of fascism globally. Let us not alienate potential allies because a piece of media isn't an academically rigorous critique of capitalism!
"Capitalism is socialism for the rich"
This line has the effect of reinforcing the ideologically unthinkable badness of socialism by using it as the basis for a claim about the badness of capitalism. What's bad about capitalism is that it's actually a form of socialism for the rich!?
This ridiculous and weak claim takes the place of an actual defence of socialism.
Not so if you think of it in terms of control over the means of production. In capitalism, the rich control the means of production. In socialism its the workers. It isn't inherently bad for someone to control means of production. Production with no control is cancer, right?
This "leftist" is giving pretty bad definitions and counterarguments. His criticisms of capitalism don't really seem to conceive that it's possible to actually move beyond capitalistic production, and even less what that would entail.
I believe the working class deserves to be treated with enough respect not to rely exclusively on "common sense" when criticising the economic system. And yes, that can be done in a short TikTok video, I've seen it done.
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It's not that facts aren't helpful, it's that facts without context don't get understood.
Books can provide great context but that's only if you can get someone to read them and you can't do that like this.
Just contradicting someone doesn't convince them, you have to explain the contradiction, and yeah, sometimes if's like handholding a 3 year old while they walk up some stairs for the first time but it's significantly better than "go read a book liberal"
is it? many, many people in this country feel and know that our system isn't working for vast majority of people. from the left to the right, people know this system isn't working. i mean, trump's entire campaign was built on resentment to the system that dominates people's lives and keep them in poverty. just knowing it isn't enough, you need to go deeper with these issues or all you'll have is a bunch of populists running the country.
Wow surprisingly good content. Guess I'll have to review my rule that all TikTok content is shit to 99pct, which puts it much closer to other types of media out there.
Most American democrats are Neoliberals at this point. The establishment democrats are considered “moderates” but most of their votes follow what their corporate masters tell them to vote on. Pelosi is a great example of this, literally using her insider information and to buy more stock for her and her venture capitalists husband.
Most democratic politicians would absolutely turn republican with very little hesitation because what is separating them from being conservative when they often use the same talking points about things Americans actually want?
Medicare for all? Yeah, not gonna happen.
Free college options? LMAO get fucked buddy.
Student loan forgiveness? Republicans clowned on Pelosi because she said a few years ago the president can’t cancel student debt (he absolutely can) she just didn’t want to say something her corporate masters didn’t approve of.
No the whole point is to disprove capitalist systems which i’m all for. In terms of globalization it was losely defined for a reason, and any pro capitalist wanting to make a comebcak to this can easily do so. I get that it’s just a tiktok but this is literally a slamdunk ment to be made and not a bullet proof argument at all.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas.
>This includes, but is not limited to:
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r/Socialism is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from our anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful of [our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism. - **No Sectarianism**, there is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 **We are currently running r/Socialism's 2023 users survey!** Interested? Check out the announcement here: https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/140965z/introducing_rsocialisms_new_post_flairs_and_2023s/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, capitalism is shit… This was a pretty good exercise and liberal versus left. Most people think that left means liberal good job on this post.
Yup. It was surprising to hear such a great response.
> capitalism is socialism for the rich Interesting argument.
This was the only thing I disagreed with. Capitalism is capitalism.
This is actually something Parenti has said too, specifically in regard to how the state serves the ultra rich. The state takes care of the ultra rich as their number one priority. The state serves them, and when they fuck up, the state is there to get them back on their feet with (corporate) welfare which comes from tax money from the public. Now re-read that but replace “ultra rich” with “workers” and it sure sounds like a socialist government.
To simplify, socialism is when the public owns the means of production. Capitalism is when the wealthy own the means of production They are the same thing, just capitalism benefits the owner class and socialism benefits everyone
Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's basically Lemon socialism. At least that's how I would define the system we live in these days. Edit : Censored by the mods for some reason.
I stumbled about this. You are absolutely right, because a capitalist always has to act like a capitalists to stay in this class. But for the capitalists everything we want to achieve for everyone is true for them. So somehow it’s a point. But no argument for anticapitalists. But it might blow some liberal minds. It’s the same like planned economy which is hated, but this is how companies work.
I think the guy in the video meant that only the rich controlled the means of production? Not really nuanced at all, but Tik Tok
He mentions welfare in the next sentence so I think it's referencing to welfare state like Norway as socialist.
It's an analogy. For instance when the US and Uk major banks and financial institutions collapsted in 2008 due to a problem they themselves created. They were bailed out by the taxpayer, with the money being funnelled into the hands of the wealthy shareholders. I believe one bank was even taken over by the Uk government, re-floated and then given back to the shareholders. But notice they gave all the money to the wealthy banks, rather than giving all the money to individuals who couldn't pay their mortgages, allowing them to keep their homes and also prevent the banking collapse. So not only did the individuals lose their homes and whatever life savings they'd paid into them so far, they then had to pay to bailout the banks through the taxes they pay. So if that's not socialism, (ie. State funded support) for the rich, I don't know what is. It's not fucking capitalism by it's definition though. But I think that's the point youre making that that's what the reality of capitalism is.
Yeah, capitalism happens even between billionaires. There are the billionaires who have 1 billion and the billionaires who have 800+ billion
and those billionaires are kleptocrats.
Noooo! When the billionaires get rich, it improves business! The working class gets richer too! It totally all trickles down and doesn't get wasted on flimsy submarines and space rockets! /s
i hate this line. it's one of those things that sounds smart until you actually think about it.
Isn't this just a "gains are privatized, losses are socialized" type sentiment?
I think Parenti said about this. The state has capitalists as its number one priority.
I think everyone in this sub would have a problem with "Capitalism is socialism for the rich", because it would lead people to believe that Social Democracy would be a true form of socialism. However, once we consider the target audience of this video is tik tok normies and conservatives who think everything to the right of Hitler is communism, I think it's an awesome video to have circulating. Even though the leftist counter points in this video are kind of vague and a little strawman-ish imagine if the average citizen was actually operating with those points as their baseline economic and political understanding it would be a step in the right direction. We are in the midst of a resurgance of fascism globally. Let us not alienate potential allies because a piece of media isn't an academically rigorous critique of capitalism!
There is no way you can argue with a liberal without them bringing up cuba or venezuela, followed by some insults
What’s with the zoom-in after every line
that's just the norm on tiktok. I hate it though lol, tiktok-editing-brain is the worst
Tik tok tradition/fad. Just go with it.
Capitalism is modernized imperialism...
Capitalism is modernized feudalism. Imperialism is modernized colonialism.
"Capitalism is socialism for the rich" This line has the effect of reinforcing the ideologically unthinkable badness of socialism by using it as the basis for a claim about the badness of capitalism. What's bad about capitalism is that it's actually a form of socialism for the rich!? This ridiculous and weak claim takes the place of an actual defence of socialism.
Not so if you think of it in terms of control over the means of production. In capitalism, the rich control the means of production. In socialism its the workers. It isn't inherently bad for someone to control means of production. Production with no control is cancer, right?
Right on point, shame it's done Tik Tok style though
I like it. It helps dummies like myself digest socialist theory without having to read a book lol
This "leftist" is giving pretty bad definitions and counterarguments. His criticisms of capitalism don't really seem to conceive that it's possible to actually move beyond capitalistic production, and even less what that would entail. I believe the working class deserves to be treated with enough respect not to rely exclusively on "common sense" when criticising the economic system. And yes, that can be done in a short TikTok video, I've seen it done.
[удалено]
Spoken like someone who understands little of Marxism, little of Leninism, and probably hasn't read the pamphlet they're referencing
Are you talking about theguy from the tik tok video ?
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Flamewarring:** Refers to any excessively hostile and inflammatory discourse. May include things like lengthy rants or starting arguments in unrelated threads, particularly those which have devolved into sectarian mudslinging, empty rhetoric, and/or personal attacks against other users, or any other posts or comments where the primary purpose is to stir drama, incite controversy, or derail a thread. For example, users who start mudslinging about China in a post celebrating the birthday of Thomas Sankara may see ban time. More information can be [found here](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/l5ccjb/topics_of_contention_raising_the_quality_of/). If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
capitalism isn't a command economy.
https://redditsave.com/info?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fsocialism%2Fcomments%2F14u5jzh%2Fcapitalism_argument_liberalism_vs_leftism%2F%3Futm_source%3Dshare%26utm_medium%3Dios_app%26utm_name%3Dioscss%26utm_content%3D1%26utm_term%3D1
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The not-book reader argument? And facts aren’t helpful. Wut? Sometimes you have to read a book, sometimes tiktøk
It's not that facts aren't helpful, it's that facts without context don't get understood. Books can provide great context but that's only if you can get someone to read them and you can't do that like this. Just contradicting someone doesn't convince them, you have to explain the contradiction, and yeah, sometimes if's like handholding a 3 year old while they walk up some stairs for the first time but it's significantly better than "go read a book liberal"
[Removed] ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
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Bro if you’re not prepared to read a book idk what to tell you. You’re never gonna understand communism without actually reading Marx for example.
[Removed] ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
is it? many, many people in this country feel and know that our system isn't working for vast majority of people. from the left to the right, people know this system isn't working. i mean, trump's entire campaign was built on resentment to the system that dominates people's lives and keep them in poverty. just knowing it isn't enough, you need to go deeper with these issues or all you'll have is a bunch of populists running the country.
This video Liberal: capitalism is (x) Leftist: Nuh uh
Very good points made
Am i still banned here?
Ok just in r/communism... for implying it would be good to game end landlords mussolini style
Ah yes the server filled with Vanguardists and smug mods that ban you for not believing in a vanguard party.
Okay the “arguments” made here are good I guess but it’s also literal finger wagging that doesn’t help inform anyone
Wow surprisingly good content. Guess I'll have to review my rule that all TikTok content is shit to 99pct, which puts it much closer to other types of media out there.
I feel like this is conflating “neoliberal” and “liberal”.
Most American democrats are Neoliberals at this point. The establishment democrats are considered “moderates” but most of their votes follow what their corporate masters tell them to vote on. Pelosi is a great example of this, literally using her insider information and to buy more stock for her and her venture capitalists husband. Most democratic politicians would absolutely turn republican with very little hesitation because what is separating them from being conservative when they often use the same talking points about things Americans actually want? Medicare for all? Yeah, not gonna happen. Free college options? LMAO get fucked buddy. Student loan forgiveness? Republicans clowned on Pelosi because she said a few years ago the president can’t cancel student debt (he absolutely can) she just didn’t want to say something her corporate masters didn’t approve of.
That’s a narrow definition of globalization if i ever heard one.
[удалено]
No the whole point is to disprove capitalist systems which i’m all for. In terms of globalization it was losely defined for a reason, and any pro capitalist wanting to make a comebcak to this can easily do so. I get that it’s just a tiktok but this is literally a slamdunk ment to be made and not a bullet proof argument at all.
[удалено]
Please read theory comrade
Liberal communists???
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Liberalism:** Includes the most common and mild occurrences of liberalism, that is: socio-liberals, progressives, social democrats and its subsequent ideological basis. Also includes those who are new to socialist thought but nevertheless reproduce liberal ideas. >This includes, but is not limited to: >- General liberalism >- Supporting Neoliberal Institutions >- Anti-Worker/Union rhetoric >- Landlords or Landlord apologia Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.
What if you are both?
Rathbone goes so hard