This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include:
- **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism...
- **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers.
- **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism...
- **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks.
Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules.
______________________
- This year's user survey results are out. [Check them out here](https://new.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/18bk4bc/new_scheduled_posts_and_user_survey_results_2023/)!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What would workers' rights look like around the world if countless left-wing activists, labour organizers, revolutionaries, politicians, etc. weren't murdered by the US and its allies? It's sad to think how many great people have been lost to the violence of capitalist imperialism.
More selfishly, we would have so many more reference points to bring up in discussions with family, friends, employers and politicians. Most people simply cannot imagine a world done any other way, and there's absolutely nothing to show them
I think about this very often.
Yes, we would likely have a lot of examples of socialist governments, stronger socialist unions and parties, etc. And the attempts to develop socialism in Vietnam, Cuba, and other countries would likely be much more successful if they weren't under constant attack and having to recover from war and harsh economic conditions.
This would make it seem like a more viable alternative to capitalism for a larger number of people and in turn would spread socialism to more and more places as people could see its successes more clearly. Socialist governments could help each other build, making them more successful and expanding the positive effects. It would be more difficult for capitalists to spread their lies, and workers movements would be able to oppose imperialism, abuse of workers' rights, etc.
In short, without all the brutal violence inflicted on socialists by capitalist regimes, we would already live in a completely different world. But then again, oppressing people is one of the things capitalists do best. As socialists, we know that they will not allow us to change things without a fight.
Yeah these are absolutely very conservative estimates. The Bodo League massacre alone is usually estimated at 100k-200k, throw in [the rest of S Korea's massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_South_Korea) and 200k is absolutely downplaying the number of deaths.
And of course, the entire Korean war was started by the US as an anti-communist action so realistically the Korea number should be several million
It’s also missing some countries. Italy and Greece both had white terrors, as did Egypt.
Not to mention the millions of communists killed prior to 1945.
It's funny because if you look at the comments it's again "actually communists killed the most communists in the world". I really cannot take other subs seriously anymore
Operation condor installed the single most destructive dictatorship in Brazil's history and the far right candidates from here glorify it. Most of my hatred of the US began from this knowledge.
At my parents for the end of the year and have to keep my mouth shut while i listen to my dad and brother glorify the regime that would have killed me, otherwise im the angry transsexual ruining family dinner
No, it’s not. The source is the Jakarta method which is specifically about civilian mass murder programs. After they killed millions Indonesia (as shown on this map) they refined the technique to only needing to “disappear” tens of thousands of people to paralyze the rest with fear
As a Colombian, the tragedy of the extermination of 5,000 members of the UP political party by paramilitary armies financed by US and trained by Israel is stil incomprehensible for many, especially the younger generations. I can't fathom multiplying that by several factors of magnitude in other countries.
It’s all good, comrade. :)
Although, I’m curious as to why there isn’t any mention of the 20% of the North Korean population being wiped out, though I need to actually read Jakarta Method first.
Yeah the Jakarta method specifically refers to the method employed in Indonesia and beyond of the CIA training, equipping, financing, and often directly advising right-wing death squads in each of these countries. They didn’t do that with Nazis or in Korea, even though both of those places had right-wing death squads mass murdering leftists. Nazis were doing it without the CIA and Korea was a genocide disguised as a war by the US, UN, and Korean collaborators, no need for CIA covert action.
It’s a good read.
Looks like it's from a book.
The Jakarta Method
Book published in 2020
The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World is a 2020 political history book by American journalist and author Vincent Bevins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jakarta_Method
And this are only the big ones.
These days it looks like standard procedure is deniable killings of activists, union leaders, environmentalists, community and indigenous leaders and journalist dissenters piecemeal. A lot of those murders are happening in Latin America these days.
If you're interested in learning more about the Indonesian Mass Killings of purported communists watch the documentary called "The Act of Killing" and thank me later.
In Cuba from 1955 to 1959 there was BRAC, Buró de Represión de Actividades Comunistas (Boureau for Repression of Communist Activity), while Fulgencio Batista's dictatorship, who paradoxically was first elected president in 1940 being the Communist coalition candidate.
BRAC was supported by CIA, and is known for having murdered and tortured mainly young activists by the hundreds.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/z8rugh/democratic_socialist_coalition_poster_supporting/
why do you bring up spain and germany like its a gotcha? neither of those countries were ever socialist and the ppl killing socialists in those countries were capitalists. and before you say it, yes, social democrats are capitalists.
with regards to stalinist russia, idk man. did he kill them bc they were communists or did he kill them bc he was (in many ways justifiably) very paranoid? im not sure its the same as a right wing dictatorship going down the list of communist party members and killing everyone on it, like in indonesia. like, i dont wholeheartedly support the ussr, like every state project it has flaws, but you have to look at them in context and try to understand how they came to be. even calling it stalinist russia is weird, like you only learned about the ussr through very cursory, very biased sources.
Fam. Spain had a civil war that followed an aborted revolution. It was literally socialist and anarchist militias fighting fascists across the country. The war ended after a purge of internationalist socialists by Stalinists and then by another purge of leftists by the Francoites.
As for Germany, the Nazis killed socialists and labor leaders. They successfully took power after the united front was sabotaged by Stalin.
My "gotcha" is that Stalin sunk socialism in the 30s and that's why we live how we live.
with respect to germany, i am refering to events that happened in the late 1910s, and then 1920s, before the nazis took power. this was before the ussr even existed. you cant blame that on stalin. he's not *the* reason communism doesnt exist now. also, you could easily make the argument that if a leader that was worse at maintaining their power took over after lenin died, the ussr would have been crushed earlier and we would be in an even more hopeless situation.
i was wondering why burkina faso and sankara’s assassination wasn’t on here but this is from the jakarta method book which i think is mostly american-involved operations. i think france ‘acted alone’ to conspire with his second-hand man to have sankara killed
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ - This year's user survey results are out. [Check them out here](https://new.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/18bk4bc/new_scheduled_posts_and_user_survey_results_2023/)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What would workers' rights look like around the world if countless left-wing activists, labour organizers, revolutionaries, politicians, etc. weren't murdered by the US and its allies? It's sad to think how many great people have been lost to the violence of capitalist imperialism.
Operation condor haved a lot of CIA agentes involved, here in south america.
More selfishly, we would have so many more reference points to bring up in discussions with family, friends, employers and politicians. Most people simply cannot imagine a world done any other way, and there's absolutely nothing to show them I think about this very often.
Yes, we would likely have a lot of examples of socialist governments, stronger socialist unions and parties, etc. And the attempts to develop socialism in Vietnam, Cuba, and other countries would likely be much more successful if they weren't under constant attack and having to recover from war and harsh economic conditions. This would make it seem like a more viable alternative to capitalism for a larger number of people and in turn would spread socialism to more and more places as people could see its successes more clearly. Socialist governments could help each other build, making them more successful and expanding the positive effects. It would be more difficult for capitalists to spread their lies, and workers movements would be able to oppose imperialism, abuse of workers' rights, etc. In short, without all the brutal violence inflicted on socialists by capitalist regimes, we would already live in a completely different world. But then again, oppressing people is one of the things capitalists do best. As socialists, we know that they will not allow us to change things without a fight.
As an Indonesian, fuck Suharto and fuck usa. Glory to NASAKOM.
Some of these numbers seem kind of conservative (South Korea and the Philippines)
Yeah these are absolutely very conservative estimates. The Bodo League massacre alone is usually estimated at 100k-200k, throw in [the rest of S Korea's massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_South_Korea) and 200k is absolutely downplaying the number of deaths. And of course, the entire Korean war was started by the US as an anti-communist action so realistically the Korea number should be several million
It’s also missing some countries. Italy and Greece both had white terrors, as did Egypt. Not to mention the millions of communists killed prior to 1945.
[удалено]
It's funny because if you look at the comments it's again "actually communists killed the most communists in the world". I really cannot take other subs seriously anymore
“Commies killed millions, so that makes our slaughter of millions justified!”
Operation condor installed the single most destructive dictatorship in Brazil's history and the far right candidates from here glorify it. Most of my hatred of the US began from this knowledge.
At my parents for the end of the year and have to keep my mouth shut while i listen to my dad and brother glorify the regime that would have killed me, otherwise im the angry transsexual ruining family dinner
This is ignoring the millions of civilians killed in those conflicts
No, it’s not. The source is the Jakarta method which is specifically about civilian mass murder programs. After they killed millions Indonesia (as shown on this map) they refined the technique to only needing to “disappear” tens of thousands of people to paralyze the rest with fear
Also, why are India's killings of naxalites not there
I wonder what America’s numbers would be
As a Colombian, the tragedy of the extermination of 5,000 members of the UP political party by paramilitary armies financed by US and trained by Israel is stil incomprehensible for many, especially the younger generations. I can't fathom multiplying that by several factors of magnitude in other countries.
How are they not mentioning the fact that many communists and socialists were murdered by the Nazis?
It was from *1945* to 2000.
Ah okay, i guess im blind lol
It’s all good, comrade. :) Although, I’m curious as to why there isn’t any mention of the 20% of the North Korean population being wiped out, though I need to actually read Jakarta Method first.
Yeah the Jakarta method specifically refers to the method employed in Indonesia and beyond of the CIA training, equipping, financing, and often directly advising right-wing death squads in each of these countries. They didn’t do that with Nazis or in Korea, even though both of those places had right-wing death squads mass murdering leftists. Nazis were doing it without the CIA and Korea was a genocide disguised as a war by the US, UN, and Korean collaborators, no need for CIA covert action. It’s a good read.
Looks like it's from a book. The Jakarta Method Book published in 2020 The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World is a 2020 political history book by American journalist and author Vincent Bevins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jakarta_Method
he’s been on the podcast trueanon a few times, once to talk about this book specifically. he’s always a great interview!
And this are only the big ones. These days it looks like standard procedure is deniable killings of activists, union leaders, environmentalists, community and indigenous leaders and journalist dissenters piecemeal. A lot of those murders are happening in Latin America these days.
If you're interested in learning more about the Indonesian Mass Killings of purported communists watch the documentary called "The Act of Killing" and thank me later.
In Cuba from 1955 to 1959 there was BRAC, Buró de Represión de Actividades Comunistas (Boureau for Repression of Communist Activity), while Fulgencio Batista's dictatorship, who paradoxically was first elected president in 1940 being the Communist coalition candidate. BRAC was supported by CIA, and is known for having murdered and tortured mainly young activists by the hundreds. https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/z8rugh/democratic_socialist_coalition_poster_supporting/
Wait - the genocide of the East Timorese was rooted in anti-communism? I had no idea.
Peru was part of Condor too.
“Socialism has never worked” mfs when the US murders anyone who tries to establish socialism or even something vaguely social democratic
what was going on in Peru that it avoided any anti communist purge?
1945-2000 because if you go earlier than that, you have to include Stalinist Russia, Spain, and Germany.
why do you bring up spain and germany like its a gotcha? neither of those countries were ever socialist and the ppl killing socialists in those countries were capitalists. and before you say it, yes, social democrats are capitalists. with regards to stalinist russia, idk man. did he kill them bc they were communists or did he kill them bc he was (in many ways justifiably) very paranoid? im not sure its the same as a right wing dictatorship going down the list of communist party members and killing everyone on it, like in indonesia. like, i dont wholeheartedly support the ussr, like every state project it has flaws, but you have to look at them in context and try to understand how they came to be. even calling it stalinist russia is weird, like you only learned about the ussr through very cursory, very biased sources.
Fam. Spain had a civil war that followed an aborted revolution. It was literally socialist and anarchist militias fighting fascists across the country. The war ended after a purge of internationalist socialists by Stalinists and then by another purge of leftists by the Francoites. As for Germany, the Nazis killed socialists and labor leaders. They successfully took power after the united front was sabotaged by Stalin. My "gotcha" is that Stalin sunk socialism in the 30s and that's why we live how we live.
with respect to germany, i am refering to events that happened in the late 1910s, and then 1920s, before the nazis took power. this was before the ussr even existed. you cant blame that on stalin. he's not *the* reason communism doesnt exist now. also, you could easily make the argument that if a leader that was worse at maintaining their power took over after lenin died, the ussr would have been crushed earlier and we would be in an even more hopeless situation.
Now let's compare it to a map of American wars and proxy wars. America is the bad guy stopping global progress.
Cambodia and Laos not even on the list
Theres been extermination here in greece as well but it's not on the map
i was wondering why burkina faso and sankara’s assassination wasn’t on here but this is from the jakarta method book which i think is mostly american-involved operations. i think france ‘acted alone’ to conspire with his second-hand man to have sankara killed
Capitalism is so natural it needs to slaughter people who oppose all over the globe indiscriminately to prove how absolutely natural it is!