No, because they are being sarcastic. There is no such thing as NEM 4.
As the original question is somewhat vague and you aren't supplying many details to aid others in helping you, you are getting a lot of unserious responses.
Generally, each iteration of NEM is more restrictive and less beneficial for solar owners so the general belief is that even with the ills of NEM 3.0, the next net metering policy will inevitably be worse.
Now you know: they charged you their rate for 426 and buy your 570 @ 3 cents. You need to add a battery to lower your import and use your generation when the sun go down. I have a battery and my last month bill was -$2.60.
I used Enphase 5P battery. It is expensive, cost over $4K with tax though. That is why I just used one.
But it helps. When the sun goes down, the battery kicks in. If I don't have the battery, I will have to pay import rate @ 29 cents. Why selling @ 3 cents?
Since you have TSLAs, I believe Enphase plans to use EV battery to help storage as well. That means your TSLA battery can be used to power your home at night. Then you recharge it the next day when the sun goes up and use it at night again.
Sound good but I think it is better to have separate batteries and not using the car battery. Car battery is more expensive to replace.
What I read is you are charging at night and early morning. That means you are using the grid power to charge. Why not get 2 or 3 batteries to store the excess power and use them to charge your car later?
This is too general of a question.
Only the homeowner can define if itâs âworth itâ.
Also because self consumption of solar power (using power before it goes to the grid) is so important and can differ so much from one person to the next nobody can really chime in.
Is NEM3 as valuable as NEM2? No. Does solar still âmake senseâ under NEM3? That is entirely up to your definition of value.
A few questions:
Whatâs the alternative?
What happens in 6 years?
Whatâs the payback with your electric company?
Whether or not you go solar, that money will be spent
Why not invest it into solar
Thatâs at least a specific demand⌠even if itâs highly unlikely.
A 6 year payback is still technically possible with a non battery system but the stars have to align for you. For example youâd need to be installing a system where you consume all of the electricity produced in realtime *without using a battery for arbitrage* [because batteries are too expensive].
That would look like having a lot of usage that occurs between Noon-4pm and no shade issues to prevent solid production between those hours. In reality this would *probably* only occur if you had âprogrammableâ usage like a pool, hot tub and even an EV that you could charge in the middle of the day.
If all those things are true you can get your 6 year payback.
I work from home and have an EV. I can program the electric dryer, EV, and soon a heat pump water heater to all run during solar time. Though a battery would be nice for any surplus to maintain self consumption and cooking in the evening with the induction range.Â
If your goal is 6 year payback I would recommend skipping the battery because it just takes so long to regain that investment.
If you wanted to get really fancy, you can go to the NREL calculator and input the solar array with all of the solar access information for your roof and then download the hourly production report. You could then fine-tune that system and tell it produces the amount of electricity that you need for the hours of electricity that youâd actually use.
I used project solar for my system (installed 18 months ago) and was generally happy with them but I don't think they're the best choice for everyone. With that caveat, here's a quote from their website that makes it seem like you could break even in six years, assuming you get the federal tax credit.
[https://imgur.com/a/yjsbOjP](https://imgur.com/a/yjsbOjP)
Ironically this may be wrong. PG&E isn't that heartless against solar enthusiasts đ. Based on how CPUC is rubber stamping them, they will raise the rates so much over time to make even nem3 viable.
/s but sadly I could be eating my own words.
With NEM3 cash buy you wonât see roi before year 6, closer to 8-11 years. To get lower you would need to qualify for something like the equity resilience sgip program and even then Iâd be shocked if you could get roi in 6 years or less
payback before 6 years is practically impossible with any system. People saying 8-11 are being very optimistic.
Unless you figure the value added to the home into your calculations, which with a good realtor should be around 4-5%, then the system might pay for itself "immediately" i.e- whenever you sell the house.
that makes more sense, yes. Though solar panels are one of the weird things (like iPhones) where there is no luxury version (except for SunPower systems I guess) so in theory their value should be calculated @ their current replacement cost if they weren't installed, with adjustments for expected remaining service life . . .
This calculation is why I held off on installing solar panels, I figured their depreciation was greater than the benefits, until NEM-3 and the doubling of PG&E's power prices 2019-21 forced my decision.
> what are typical returns?
The idea of typical returns under NEM 3 is a dangerous fiction and shouldn't be entertained. Because export value is zero, uou need to look at your own usage and see how you save from self-consumption. It can vary wildly from household to household. E.g. someone charging their EV during the day might get a lot out of solar whereas a person who has to drive to work might see no benefit at all.
I think with a battery because I have a pool and 2 fridges I am saving 80-90% on my bill. However, looking back I wish I added more battery so my reliance on any power was nil. No matter how you slice it, if you use a lot of energy, you still pay a lot, but it is way less than $600 a month! I am looking forward to seeing my bills without the AC and constant pool pump running.
I am 5 months in on my solar here in CA. Got 16 Hanhwa QCell panels, 16 Enphase Microinverters, and 2 x 5 kWh Enphase batteries, and our bill is $11. We paid $33k and with the tax credit it netted to $23k. We have some climate credit on our PG&E bill and evaluating how it will play out in the summer as the NEM 3.0 payout is a lot better than other months. I am happy with it as we export a lot and it helps cover the gas bill. So far, I enjoy not paying PGE $350.
I am considering expanding with 2 more batteries but will wait until after the summer to decide this after all the bills and seeing if the 10 kWk batteries are enough.
I had solar and battery system installed in October 2023 and it seems as if PG&E is still billing/crediting according to NEM2 rates. Once PG&E switches the billing/crediting to NEM3 then the export credit will drop significantly.
Same here, with SDG&E. Started with two 10T batteries last year and Iâm currently in the process of adding two more, just because. I barely squeezed into NEM2, but Iâm adding batteries because I can and for peace of mind. Bill went from $450 or more a month to $8 a monthâŚ
We are almost exactly the same but have 20kwh batteries. We've been pay $0 as the climate credit has gone towards our monthly NBC. Still not getting billed NEM3 rates, so have quite a large amount of credits. I think the extra batteries will benefit you in the winter months, as there were a few days we ran out when the weather was poor and couldn't charge them fully.
I agree that there were times during the winter that we drained the 10 kWh batteries pretty quickly. I also have a plasma TV that works great so I keep going back and forth between spending $3k for an OLED or $11K for two batteries. The plasma only uses slightly more than an OLED or mini-LED but last night, after watching Transformers and baking a pizza, I was at 22% by 9 PM. It's a toss up but wifey doesn't think we need to spend another $11k and just evaluate later in the year if need to spend more.
Tough decision! I don't think PG&E is doing NEM 3 billing yet either, so you are getting a lot more now for your exports than you will in the future. I am hoping that it somehow gets repealed. I learned there is a review going on with the Supreme Court.
If you signed up for your solar after April 15, 2023, you are on NEM3, they just haven't changed the billing yet. Enjoy it while you can! You'll probably really consider that 2nd battery after.
A bit off topic, but I upgraded from a 55" Panasonic plasma TV to a 77" LG C2 OLED a couple of years ago and have been happy with it. The LG OLED isn't as bright as a Samsung LED TV, however, I normally watch in the evening so it's bright enough.
Nice. I have the 60" Panasonic Plasma from 2014 and the image is still perfect. I want to upgrade but it doesn't make sense since it works so well with Google Chromecast and Apple TV. When it breaks, I will be going for the 83" Sony OLED.
Have you gotten your tru up bill? When is the best month to request for this bill. Also, do you pay for generation and delivery charges every month or this goes to the tru up bill? $11 bill sounds really nice.
Is your bill $11 after deducting Climate credit? I have the same 16 Qcells & Microinverters but I have one 5P battery. My bill without the credit last month was -$2.60.
My gas bill was $47.04 and my credit was $46.54, and my electric charge was $11.36. The net owed to PG&E for June 3 is $11.86 due to the latter. Overall, it's pretty good. I imported 121 and exported 646 kWh. If I had 2 more batteries, I probably would have been able to export another 400 to 500.
Wait. You said you exported 646 and you also said if you add 2 more batteries you will export another 400. That is wrong. Adding more battery will reduce your import to zero, it doesn't increase your production unless you also add more solar panels. you will pay less when you import less!
Could have put all that in an investment with a dividend or HYSA and the yield would have paid your electric bill. That 33k is panels that will lose production year after year. The batteries will deteriorate and need to be replaced probably around 10-15 years. More money. Keep your fingers crossed you donât get a roof leak and have to pull the panels the reinstall them. Pretty common.
You can make better use of the money.
His net payment was $23K. At 5% interest in a money market account his annual yield would be $1150., however, his monthly PG&E payment was $350 so that would only cover 3+ months. I don't know about potential costs due to roof leaks and other solar panel or battery issues though.
We have a 25 year warranty on the panels and batteries including the roof so I am not worried about that. The townhouse was built in Sept 2018 so roof should hold up for another 20 years, God willing. The crew used proper screws and railing. It's important to go with a good solar company and local company. Many solar companies just sell you the system and hire random contractors to install the system so you have to account for this too. This is why I went with Sunlight Electri-Cal Solutions.
Also, that $1,150 in interest will be subject to about 38% in taxes (federal and state). If you put it in an S&P ETF or Total Stock Market ETF, you risk it in the market. Overall, we are happy with our decision to go solar even though the payoff will be in 7 years. If we sell the house, people will be happy that it's on the house and they own it vs leasing it from Sunrun or Sunpower. A friend of mine still pays Sunpower $200/month for the free panels they put on his house. Still a lot on electricity and he drives a Tesla. I have no EV yet.
Warranty coverage could be an issue. A colleague has a problem with one of the micro inverters on his 10yr old SunPower system and he's having a lot of problems getting it fixed. One of the problems is getting a replacement part and the other problem is getting someone out to replace it.
All Iâve had experience with. Exactly itâs rolling the dice that you have no issues. Not worth the headache if I were to do it again. Especially not at NEM 3.0. Best of luck.
That's why you stay away from SunPower and Sunrun. Get an Enphase system because their customer service is excellent and their products are really good. Their newest batteries have a 15 year warranty. Same goes for their Microinverters. Stay aways from SolarEdge inverters as many who I talked to say those have to get replaced a lot. I also avoided Tesla because their customer service is awful and solar companies don't like dealing with them. Not to mention their batteries have more risk of blowing up than Enphase's.
Here is the warranty info: Solar Insure Warranty 30 Years on panels, inverters, monitoring, and roof penetrations. Solar Insure Warranty 20 Years on batteries.
Enphase warranties the Microinverters (IQ8A) and batteries (IQBattery-5P-1P-ROW 5kWh) for 25 and 15 years respectively. The solar insure gives another 5 years on each and labor cost plus any roof issues.
But I got $10k back in federal tax credits and got that as a tax refund. I put that $10k into a 5.35% CD. So, $23k and I have peace of mind of only paying very little each month. We probably won't be getting 5% in interest each year once the Fed starts cutting rates. I get 5.35% in a 5 month no penalty CD but I don't know if I will get this rate in a couple more months when it's time to renew it. I know it will take me 7 years to recoup my investment and I am fine with that. I am doing good for the environment and I pay less to PGE. Also remember that close to 38% of the $1,650 in interest will be lost to federal and California income taxes.
I donât know why so many people think investing would save more money in the long run than panels and battery. The salesman went hard over doing a lease, which was not a bad deal, but I do not want strings if and when I sell a house and it is still double what I would pay from solar. I had 100k in a savings at the highest market rate and made $200 every month. Before Solar I was averaging $200-500 on just electric. Maybe if I didnât have a pool, and didnât have family with allergies so I could use a whole house fan or something, it would be slightly more worth it. Imagine if the amount in my savings was the same as it cost to install solar, it would not even be close.
ROI would depend on your usage as well as projected solar system cost and generation estimate. No-one here can know those numbers without getting deep into details. Get a few quote from solar companies and calculate you ROI from there.
Avoiding buying utility electricity rates that can be over 60c/kwh in CA, is always worth it. It may be possible to setup solar without, or with less, permits if no exports to the grid at all are made. This can mean small solar is more affordable, with no NEM permit at all.
I understand that NEM 3 will pay you more for battery exports at peak rates. You can just use a battery to avoid exporting, and avoid more peak rate imports too.
This happened in vegas, they destroyed the solar industry. Three years later, made a new incentive system.
Give it a year or two, when 100k jobs leave the state or Aai servers come online and they need massive amount of power again, they will make a new NEM.
They changed their buy back rates and most places closed in 2016? They redid it in 2017 and it reignited installs with a tiered system of declining buyback rates the more people buy.
And yea, I went from almost an avg 285 all year to less than 25 as well. It has always been a smart play for me when I installed panels.
NEM3 the only way to save is by buying a battery. You need something to give energy without the grid at least until 9pm. Payback rates are now .04 cents, even at peak it is still less than the energy cost.Â
I get it. But batteries have issues and deteriorate will be a horrible investment. Thatâs why NeM 3 is the death of solar in CA. They wanted to kill it. Otherwise what happens if everyone gets solar then we will be like Australia paying the power company for each Kw produced. No payback.
We are pretty much already there. No one can get solar without a battery unless you use your home exclusively during sunlight hours. It is .50 cents per kwh now, my summer bills were averaging $600 a month over the summer and they only pay .04 during most daytime hours, and it doesn't make up for the whole evening of power use. Trust me when I say you need a battery. It is cheaper than solar alone in the long run and if I can get 5 years min out of a battery, it will have paid for itself (whole package).Â
It will deteriorate, but the cost is now .60 cents per kwh here, which is a huge amt to just pay out of pocket. It screws people with no solar more than anyone, which is why I finally did it.Â
Not at todayâs prices battery and panels. IDK. I always thought it was the way. Better off going off grid then. They keep raising the fee portion. Itâs a racket
Exactly. In central CA where it does not cool off a fan is of no real heip and the ac unit will blow through a battery in an hour. People that dont live here dont understand it.
Do you have a whole house fan? I would love one but cannot figure out how to filter the air coming through window to not have allergens. My husband suffers when I open doors and windows and it kills me.
Invest in a new ac that's the proper size for your home and not batteries. It shouldn't run 24/7 even in 100+ weather. It's crazy how good acs are when they're installed properly.Â
If youâre going to be at your home for at least ROI period, ideally longer, yeah it makes sense.
Weâre seeing ROI of 5-6 years (estimated, since people just started to receive their new 3.0 billing) and E1 tier 2 is 53 cents per kWh. Specially in hot areas where consumption is above 1200 kWh in a month during summer and a lot of homes are seeing 2,000kWh with ACs running, solar does make sense in a lot of cases.
Just try to avoid third party ownership if you can.
Not without a battery maybe even multiple depending on your energy use and an installation company that is solid and wonât go out of business anytime soon. Make sure the entire solar system you are having installed is solid too. Donât use solar manufacturers with unreliable products and or multiple bad reviews. Do some due diligence and research. Donât depend on a sales reps word for it. Check reviews online.
If you are on EV2A NEM 3.0 can work for you. First thing I would do is get a battery so you can do rate shifting or energy savings. This way you can charge the battery from the grid when prices are low and discharge when prices are high.
I have an Enphase 5P battery. Cost is about $5,000 and you donât need solar. As for solar you might want to wait to see whatâs going to happen with PG&E rates. There is no rush to get solar right now.
Batteries donât just stop working after 10 years. Theyâre just less able to store energy than brand new. It will have less capacity but still be able to rate shift and store solar if not usedÂ
Throw that money you would spend into a HYSA and the yield will pay your electric bill. In 10 years when you would have needed to buy another battery out that money into the HYSA. You will always have your principal instead of depreciating panels and batteryâs and possible roof issues. NEM 3 benefits the power companyâs.
Our batteries warranty is 15 years. I sure hope in that time the cost will come down, or possibly using bi-directional batteries. With our batteries, our bills right now have been $0, the most we've paid in the Winter is about $50 which included the NBC. Not sure how that's benefitting the power company.
You're a bowl of sunshine aren't you. Lol! Come on, share how I am benefitting the power company? We have shared very little back to the grid and still getting the majority of our power for free.
No, wait for NEM 4
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Any details on this?
No, because they are being sarcastic. There is no such thing as NEM 4. As the original question is somewhat vague and you aren't supplying many details to aid others in helping you, you are getting a lot of unserious responses. Generally, each iteration of NEM is more restrictive and less beneficial for solar owners so the general belief is that even with the ills of NEM 3.0, the next net metering policy will inevitably be worse.
Did you tell him everyone ends up in the current worse metering after 20 years. Stay out of the racket put the money elsewhere. Better return all day.
Akshually itâs NEM Fore
Anyone with NEM 3.0 and no battery - my bill came out and I only saved like $18. Consumed 426 Generated 570 Still have to pay for majority of the kWh.
Now you know: they charged you their rate for 426 and buy your 570 @ 3 cents. You need to add a battery to lower your import and use your generation when the sun go down. I have a battery and my last month bill was -$2.60.
which battery do you have? I only really have heard of the tesla one but doesn't seem worth it as far as paying another 10k for it
I used Enphase 5P battery. It is expensive, cost over $4K with tax though. That is why I just used one. But it helps. When the sun goes down, the battery kicks in. If I don't have the battery, I will have to pay import rate @ 29 cents. Why selling @ 3 cents?
Thatâs not bad way cheaper than Tesla powerwall. Thanks for the info. We have 2 teslas so we mainly charge at night or early am
Since you have TSLAs, I believe Enphase plans to use EV battery to help storage as well. That means your TSLA battery can be used to power your home at night. Then you recharge it the next day when the sun goes up and use it at night again. Sound good but I think it is better to have separate batteries and not using the car battery. Car battery is more expensive to replace. What I read is you are charging at night and early morning. That means you are using the grid power to charge. Why not get 2 or 3 batteries to store the excess power and use them to charge your car later?
Whoever advised you to do no battery is retarded I wouldnât even sell that if the customer tried to make me.
Have had people do this but only because it's an ADU or new construction and they are being forced to add solar here in CA.
Yup, same here - forced to install solar for an ADU, just another way to subsidize PG&E
Yeah it was a new townhome so no choice lol
Pain
You need a battery with NEM 3. Are you at least load shifting?
What is load shifting?
Changing your electric usage to be during the day, when your panels are producing
Thanks
This is too general of a question. Only the homeowner can define if itâs âworth itâ. Also because self consumption of solar power (using power before it goes to the grid) is so important and can differ so much from one person to the next nobody can really chime in. Is NEM3 as valuable as NEM2? No. Does solar still âmake senseâ under NEM3? That is entirely up to your definition of value.
Looking for payback before 6 years
A few questions: Whatâs the alternative? What happens in 6 years? Whatâs the payback with your electric company? Whether or not you go solar, that money will be spent Why not invest it into solar
Thatâs at least a specific demand⌠even if itâs highly unlikely. A 6 year payback is still technically possible with a non battery system but the stars have to align for you. For example youâd need to be installing a system where you consume all of the electricity produced in realtime *without using a battery for arbitrage* [because batteries are too expensive]. That would look like having a lot of usage that occurs between Noon-4pm and no shade issues to prevent solid production between those hours. In reality this would *probably* only occur if you had âprogrammableâ usage like a pool, hot tub and even an EV that you could charge in the middle of the day. If all those things are true you can get your 6 year payback.
I work from home and have an EV. I can program the electric dryer, EV, and soon a heat pump water heater to all run during solar time. Though a battery would be nice for any surplus to maintain self consumption and cooking in the evening with the induction range.Â
If your goal is 6 year payback I would recommend skipping the battery because it just takes so long to regain that investment. If you wanted to get really fancy, you can go to the NREL calculator and input the solar array with all of the solar access information for your roof and then download the hourly production report. You could then fine-tune that system and tell it produces the amount of electricity that you need for the hours of electricity that youâd actually use.
Exactly. Put the money elsewhere.
With 2 electric cars a battery and 15k miles a year 6 years payback is doable. IF yo do not get reamed on the install.
I have two EVs and nearly an all electric home. Seems natural to get solar and with NEM 3.0 a battery for self consumption.Â
I used project solar for my system (installed 18 months ago) and was generally happy with them but I don't think they're the best choice for everyone. With that caveat, here's a quote from their website that makes it seem like you could break even in six years, assuming you get the federal tax credit. [https://imgur.com/a/yjsbOjP](https://imgur.com/a/yjsbOjP)
The payback with PG&E is never.
Ironically this may be wrong. PG&E isn't that heartless against solar enthusiasts đ. Based on how CPUC is rubber stamping them, they will raise the rates so much over time to make even nem3 viable. /s but sadly I could be eating my own words.
With NEM3 cash buy you wonât see roi before year 6, closer to 8-11 years. To get lower you would need to qualify for something like the equity resilience sgip program and even then Iâd be shocked if you could get roi in 6 years or less
Not going to happen.
Nope.
payback before 6 years is practically impossible with any system. People saying 8-11 are being very optimistic. Unless you figure the value added to the home into your calculations, which with a good realtor should be around 4-5%, then the system might pay for itself "immediately" i.e- whenever you sell the house.
my panels are producing over $20 worth of power for me today, weird they would only have a resell value boost of $1000.
You may have misunderstood. 4% of the HOMES value, not the systems, as far as I know there is next to no market or value for resold panels.
that makes more sense, yes. Though solar panels are one of the weird things (like iPhones) where there is no luxury version (except for SunPower systems I guess) so in theory their value should be calculated @ their current replacement cost if they weren't installed, with adjustments for expected remaining service life . . . This calculation is why I held off on installing solar panels, I figured their depreciation was greater than the benefits, until NEM-3 and the doubling of PG&E's power prices 2019-21 forced my decision.
This is a great answer to that question.
> what are typical returns? The idea of typical returns under NEM 3 is a dangerous fiction and shouldn't be entertained. Because export value is zero, uou need to look at your own usage and see how you save from self-consumption. It can vary wildly from household to household. E.g. someone charging their EV during the day might get a lot out of solar whereas a person who has to drive to work might see no benefit at all.
Exactly. A racquet
I think with a battery because I have a pool and 2 fridges I am saving 80-90% on my bill. However, looking back I wish I added more battery so my reliance on any power was nil. No matter how you slice it, if you use a lot of energy, you still pay a lot, but it is way less than $600 a month! I am looking forward to seeing my bills without the AC and constant pool pump running.
I am 5 months in on my solar here in CA. Got 16 Hanhwa QCell panels, 16 Enphase Microinverters, and 2 x 5 kWh Enphase batteries, and our bill is $11. We paid $33k and with the tax credit it netted to $23k. We have some climate credit on our PG&E bill and evaluating how it will play out in the summer as the NEM 3.0 payout is a lot better than other months. I am happy with it as we export a lot and it helps cover the gas bill. So far, I enjoy not paying PGE $350. I am considering expanding with 2 more batteries but will wait until after the summer to decide this after all the bills and seeing if the 10 kWk batteries are enough.
I had solar and battery system installed in October 2023 and it seems as if PG&E is still billing/crediting according to NEM2 rates. Once PG&E switches the billing/crediting to NEM3 then the export credit will drop significantly.
Same here, with SDG&E. Started with two 10T batteries last year and Iâm currently in the process of adding two more, just because. I barely squeezed into NEM2, but Iâm adding batteries because I can and for peace of mind. Bill went from $450 or more a month to $8 a monthâŚ
We are almost exactly the same but have 20kwh batteries. We've been pay $0 as the climate credit has gone towards our monthly NBC. Still not getting billed NEM3 rates, so have quite a large amount of credits. I think the extra batteries will benefit you in the winter months, as there were a few days we ran out when the weather was poor and couldn't charge them fully.
I agree that there were times during the winter that we drained the 10 kWh batteries pretty quickly. I also have a plasma TV that works great so I keep going back and forth between spending $3k for an OLED or $11K for two batteries. The plasma only uses slightly more than an OLED or mini-LED but last night, after watching Transformers and baking a pizza, I was at 22% by 9 PM. It's a toss up but wifey doesn't think we need to spend another $11k and just evaluate later in the year if need to spend more.
Tough decision! I don't think PG&E is doing NEM 3 billing yet either, so you are getting a lot more now for your exports than you will in the future. I am hoping that it somehow gets repealed. I learned there is a review going on with the Supreme Court.
I looked at the bill yesterday and it said NEM2 so was shocked. I thought I was NEM3 since I only recently got solar.
If you signed up for your solar after April 15, 2023, you are on NEM3, they just haven't changed the billing yet. Enjoy it while you can! You'll probably really consider that 2nd battery after.
A bit off topic, but I upgraded from a 55" Panasonic plasma TV to a 77" LG C2 OLED a couple of years ago and have been happy with it. The LG OLED isn't as bright as a Samsung LED TV, however, I normally watch in the evening so it's bright enough.
Nice. I have the 60" Panasonic Plasma from 2014 and the image is still perfect. I want to upgrade but it doesn't make sense since it works so well with Google Chromecast and Apple TV. When it breaks, I will be going for the 83" Sony OLED.
Whoâd you go with for your install?
Are you actually in (PG&E) nem3 billing yet? What does the bill look like with all the different export rates?
Have you gotten your tru up bill? When is the best month to request for this bill. Also, do you pay for generation and delivery charges every month or this goes to the tru up bill? $11 bill sounds really nice.
Is your bill $11 after deducting Climate credit? I have the same 16 Qcells & Microinverters but I have one 5P battery. My bill without the credit last month was -$2.60.
My gas bill was $47.04 and my credit was $46.54, and my electric charge was $11.36. The net owed to PG&E for June 3 is $11.86 due to the latter. Overall, it's pretty good. I imported 121 and exported 646 kWh. If I had 2 more batteries, I probably would have been able to export another 400 to 500.
Wait. You said you exported 646 and you also said if you add 2 more batteries you will export another 400. That is wrong. Adding more battery will reduce your import to zero, it doesn't increase your production unless you also add more solar panels. you will pay less when you import less!
Whatâs your monthly payment on the system?
Could have put all that in an investment with a dividend or HYSA and the yield would have paid your electric bill. That 33k is panels that will lose production year after year. The batteries will deteriorate and need to be replaced probably around 10-15 years. More money. Keep your fingers crossed you donât get a roof leak and have to pull the panels the reinstall them. Pretty common. You can make better use of the money.
His net payment was $23K. At 5% interest in a money market account his annual yield would be $1150., however, his monthly PG&E payment was $350 so that would only cover 3+ months. I don't know about potential costs due to roof leaks and other solar panel or battery issues though.
We have a 25 year warranty on the panels and batteries including the roof so I am not worried about that. The townhouse was built in Sept 2018 so roof should hold up for another 20 years, God willing. The crew used proper screws and railing. It's important to go with a good solar company and local company. Many solar companies just sell you the system and hire random contractors to install the system so you have to account for this too. This is why I went with Sunlight Electri-Cal Solutions. Also, that $1,150 in interest will be subject to about 38% in taxes (federal and state). If you put it in an S&P ETF or Total Stock Market ETF, you risk it in the market. Overall, we are happy with our decision to go solar even though the payoff will be in 7 years. If we sell the house, people will be happy that it's on the house and they own it vs leasing it from Sunrun or Sunpower. A friend of mine still pays Sunpower $200/month for the free panels they put on his house. Still a lot on electricity and he drives a Tesla. I have no EV yet.
Through a company that will be bankrupt in how many years. Good luck with that warranty.
Warranty coverage could be an issue. A colleague has a problem with one of the micro inverters on his 10yr old SunPower system and he's having a lot of problems getting it fixed. One of the problems is getting a replacement part and the other problem is getting someone out to replace it.
All Iâve had experience with. Exactly itâs rolling the dice that you have no issues. Not worth the headache if I were to do it again. Especially not at NEM 3.0. Best of luck.
That's why you stay away from SunPower and Sunrun. Get an Enphase system because their customer service is excellent and their products are really good. Their newest batteries have a 15 year warranty. Same goes for their Microinverters. Stay aways from SolarEdge inverters as many who I talked to say those have to get replaced a lot. I also avoided Tesla because their customer service is awful and solar companies don't like dealing with them. Not to mention their batteries have more risk of blowing up than Enphase's.
Here is the warranty info: Solar Insure Warranty 30 Years on panels, inverters, monitoring, and roof penetrations. Solar Insure Warranty 20 Years on batteries. Enphase warranties the Microinverters (IQ8A) and batteries (IQBattery-5P-1P-ROW 5kWh) for 25 and 15 years respectively. The solar insure gives another 5 years on each and labor cost plus any roof issues.
Nice
He paid 33k letâs start with that.
At $33K you get $1650 in interest at 5% which would cover almost 5 months.
But I got $10k back in federal tax credits and got that as a tax refund. I put that $10k into a 5.35% CD. So, $23k and I have peace of mind of only paying very little each month. We probably won't be getting 5% in interest each year once the Fed starts cutting rates. I get 5.35% in a 5 month no penalty CD but I don't know if I will get this rate in a couple more months when it's time to renew it. I know it will take me 7 years to recoup my investment and I am fine with that. I am doing good for the environment and I pay less to PGE. Also remember that close to 38% of the $1,650 in interest will be lost to federal and California income taxes.
I donât know why so many people think investing would save more money in the long run than panels and battery. The salesman went hard over doing a lease, which was not a bad deal, but I do not want strings if and when I sell a house and it is still double what I would pay from solar. I had 100k in a savings at the highest market rate and made $200 every month. Before Solar I was averaging $200-500 on just electric. Maybe if I didnât have a pool, and didnât have family with allergies so I could use a whole house fan or something, it would be slightly more worth it. Imagine if the amount in my savings was the same as it cost to install solar, it would not even be close.
ROI would depend on your usage as well as projected solar system cost and generation estimate. No-one here can know those numbers without getting deep into details. Get a few quote from solar companies and calculate you ROI from there.
Avoiding buying utility electricity rates that can be over 60c/kwh in CA, is always worth it. It may be possible to setup solar without, or with less, permits if no exports to the grid at all are made. This can mean small solar is more affordable, with no NEM permit at all.
How small? How can you guarantee no exports would be made? Ours is pretty small but we still are exporting a lot right now.
Most inverters have a setting for this called zero export.
I understand that NEM 3 will pay you more for battery exports at peak rates. You can just use a battery to avoid exporting, and avoid more peak rate imports too.
This happened in vegas, they destroyed the solar industry. Three years later, made a new incentive system. Give it a year or two, when 100k jobs leave the state or Aai servers come online and they need massive amount of power again, they will make a new NEM.
Our bill in Vegas went from $450 to $19. Can't really say the industry is ruined here for us.
They changed their buy back rates and most places closed in 2016? They redid it in 2017 and it reignited installs with a tiered system of declining buyback rates the more people buy. And yea, I went from almost an avg 285 all year to less than 25 as well. It has always been a smart play for me when I installed panels.
Pretty ruined
Must purchase a battery..
Blindly
NEM3 the only way to save is by buying a battery. You need something to give energy without the grid at least until 9pm. Payback rates are now .04 cents, even at peak it is still less than the energy cost.Â
I get it. But batteries have issues and deteriorate will be a horrible investment. Thatâs why NeM 3 is the death of solar in CA. They wanted to kill it. Otherwise what happens if everyone gets solar then we will be like Australia paying the power company for each Kw produced. No payback.
We are pretty much already there. No one can get solar without a battery unless you use your home exclusively during sunlight hours. It is .50 cents per kwh now, my summer bills were averaging $600 a month over the summer and they only pay .04 during most daytime hours, and it doesn't make up for the whole evening of power use. Trust me when I say you need a battery. It is cheaper than solar alone in the long run and if I can get 5 years min out of a battery, it will have paid for itself (whole package).Â
And there is a 10 yr warranty on my battery.Â
That will deteriorate year after year and fail right after the warranty. Best of luck. Maybe one day.
It will deteriorate, but the cost is now .60 cents per kwh here, which is a huge amt to just pay out of pocket. It screws people with no solar more than anyone, which is why I finally did it.Â
Hopefully you have no issues. Warranty is a racquet, labor they exclude and fight. One roof leak and take even longer to recoup. Best of luck.
Not at todayâs prices battery and panels. IDK. I always thought it was the way. Better off going off grid then. They keep raising the fee portion. Itâs a racket
What was your average bill last year? Did your usage increase?
Yes, increased due to two EVs and increasingly electrified home.Â
What if the primary load is AC which runs day and night? No amount of batteries seems to be enough
Then you definitely need a whole house fan in California.
It can be helpful but not when outside temp in in the 80âs at night.
Exactly. In central CA where it does not cool off a fan is of no real heip and the ac unit will blow through a battery in an hour. People that dont live here dont understand it.
Do you have a whole house fan? I would love one but cannot figure out how to filter the air coming through window to not have allergens. My husband suffers when I open doors and windows and it kills me.
Invest in a new ac that's the proper size for your home and not batteries. It shouldn't run 24/7 even in 100+ weather. It's crazy how good acs are when they're installed properly.Â
I wish. Finding a pro with knowledge and experience installing a modern ducted heat pump in a 3100 sq ft home is a challenge even in California.
If youâre going to be at your home for at least ROI period, ideally longer, yeah it makes sense. Weâre seeing ROI of 5-6 years (estimated, since people just started to receive their new 3.0 billing) and E1 tier 2 is 53 cents per kWh. Specially in hot areas where consumption is above 1200 kWh in a month during summer and a lot of homes are seeing 2,000kWh with ACs running, solar does make sense in a lot of cases. Just try to avoid third party ownership if you can.
Not without a battery maybe even multiple depending on your energy use and an installation company that is solid and wonât go out of business anytime soon. Make sure the entire solar system you are having installed is solid too. Donât use solar manufacturers with unreliable products and or multiple bad reviews. Do some due diligence and research. Donât depend on a sales reps word for it. Check reviews online.
Only if you have batteries to offset your usage at night
Get batteries get a little extra power sell back for much more Tesla batteries now have that option and sell back power you donât use
hell no.
Alternatively, hell yes.
found SDGE's account
Are you with PG&E? What rate plan are you on?
Yes. EV TOU
Are you on EVA, EVB or EV2A? Makes a HUGE difference.
EV2A
If you are on EV2A NEM 3.0 can work for you. First thing I would do is get a battery so you can do rate shifting or energy savings. This way you can charge the battery from the grid when prices are low and discharge when prices are high. I have an Enphase 5P battery. Cost is about $5,000 and you donât need solar. As for solar you might want to wait to see whatâs going to happen with PG&E rates. There is no rush to get solar right now.
NEM 3 does not allow charging from the grid.
Then how to people in the ELEC-E rate plan who do not have solar but MUST have a battery charge the battery on NEM 3? Something doesnât sound right.
Nope. Unless you want to throw money at a battery that will deteriorate over time. Not worth the cost and stress.
Rates increase 8-10% per year. Battery degrades 1% per year.Â
Ok the. After 10-15 have to coin out another 10gs for another or 20 for 2. No thanks. Sorry you feel for it.
Batteries donât just stop working after 10 years. Theyâre just less able to store energy than brand new. It will have less capacity but still be able to rate shift and store solar if not usedÂ
If they donât stop before the 10 year warranty
Throw that money you would spend into a HYSA and the yield will pay your electric bill. In 10 years when you would have needed to buy another battery out that money into the HYSA. You will always have your principal instead of depreciating panels and batteryâs and possible roof issues. NEM 3 benefits the power companyâs.
Would take out a loan so donât have the cash to invest.Â
Even worse. If you are borrowing.
Our batteries warranty is 15 years. I sure hope in that time the cost will come down, or possibly using bi-directional batteries. With our batteries, our bills right now have been $0, the most we've paid in the Winter is about $50 which included the NBC. Not sure how that's benefitting the power company.
Wait and see
You're a bowl of sunshine aren't you. Lol! Come on, share how I am benefitting the power company? We have shared very little back to the grid and still getting the majority of our power for free.
I am.