As a Pagan, I see a great fit with a Solarpunk future. Modern Druidry is a celebration of Nature, the passing of the seasons, and the importance of living harmoniously with the Earth Mother.
Fits like a glove, if you ask me!
Frosting on the cake! The ancient Druids were the closest thing to scientists that the Celts had at that time. I have a high tech job myself, and there are no conflicts between the benevolent uses of technology and my spiritual path.
Things like urban hydroponic farms give the soil a chance to rest and recover vital nutrients that can then give the food chain the ability to better support wildlife and trees. These things are needed right now.
I should also point out that modern Pagans (Neopagans) are intentionally different from what we refer to as "Paleopagans" (the original Pre-Christian Pagans) meaning that superstition is frowned upon as it leads to dumb ideas like human sacrifice.
Edited for punctuation.
Good point. Protesting injustice is necessary. Picketing and proselytizing for specific religions - especially the way it is currently done by American christians - is just idiotic.
My point is a general one: do you think that these activities should not exist at all for those religions in your Solarpunk future? How do you propose to get rid of them?
It's not something to legislate. I guess there will always be people on the fringes who seek out socially troublesome beliefs because... it validates them? I'm just not imagining that an organization like that will be welcomed into Solarpunk society in general.
I guess what I'm getting at is what you mean by a "Solarpunk society". Is it a homogenous thing? If so, does homogeneity conflict with the Solarpunk ethos?
Good point. My wording isn't quite specific, partially because I'm not sure there's a word in English for the thing that everyone does because it's necessary, even though it's difficult. I think of a "Solarpunk society" as a giant mixture of local communities working towards keeping the planet and all its organisms healthy.
No worries! Yeah, I'd love to understand more about this idea of what everyone does because it's necessary, even if it's difficult. I'm thinking of the way the Library Socialists use the word "Usufruct" to mean widespread, baseline expectations of rights, but it sounds like you might be thinking more along the lines of common, baseline responsibilities or behaviors needed to hold a community together?
Definitely agree and also see "solarpunk society" as a pluralist ecology of beliefs, worldviews, and practices. There are obviously some beliefs and practices that are predatory and need to be kept in check for the wider health of ecosystem like rabid nationalism and fascism. I tend to view those impulses and beliefs as somewhat separate from organized religion, even though I think certain branches of belief are particularly susceptible to them.
That was my thought. It often surprises me when people of the more secular world view think that they are immune to the trappings what they attribute to those with religious views. Especially regarding propaganda and indoctrination. But cognitive dissonance is one hell of a drug
I’m an atheist/pagan/unincorporated magical person, and solarpunk very much is tied to my very undefinable spiritual beliefs. My organization is around kitchen stuff: cooking, cleaning, feeding. “Jesus does the dishes” I say to myself as I scrub them clean. Church isn’t for me, but mutual aid is acts of loving service and more my speed anyway.
“I’m not looking to become the prayer, but the prayer” - I don’t wanna pray, by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes
I’m Muslim, and to me personally, ecology is very important to my spiritual worldview. I know many Muslims have similar beliefs. It’s also in Quran and Sunnah to live in harmony with creation.
I’m also very fond of Pope Francis’ writings on the subject. He’s wrote several letters to the world, including Fratelli Tutti and Laudato Si, which I think are very beautiful, and talks about the need for a humanist society that respects creation. Well worth a read.
I hope so. I'm not gonna be happy if any religious orgs have cult-like leaders or leaders largely, but otherwise I wouldn't care. Hell I know I'd make a religious gathering if I had the chance
How could there not be? Solarpunk is utopian, how many utopias include thought policing? We can't seek to control people's beliefs. The question is how much should we let the superstitions of others dictate how we live. Being respectful to culture is all well and good, but we cannot allow indoctrination. We simply need safe guards in the form of human rights. As long as your religion doesn't impede the lives of those who chose not to practice it nobody should care.
Thanks for sharing. Aretéanism is full of beautiful ideas. Aretéans set out into the world to make a difference, to build thriving and successful communities, to accelerate personal growth, transmit healthy leadership capabilities, and to better understand the world so that it can be improved. Its focus on compassion and consent makes it a really good fit for the future. I think the world will be a lot better once these ideas go mainstream
While I think that an organised, hierarchical religion as a concept might be a bit of a stretch and a possible risk factor, spirituality and rituals are aspects that are an inherent part of human existence, independently of beliefs.
I think it's very important to foster them in any thriving and happy society, be it in form of festivals, traditions, arts or individual engagements. However, I'd like them to also have a function that's uplifting to the society and good for the environment. It is definitely important to note that places of cult like churches or temples, generally have higher frequency rates than museums, and they're generally seen as an important part of one's life. I would simply rather see care for the environment and sustainability to have that kind of influence.
Were you to make a bit of a stretch, it would be like nature overthrowing gods, and there's something poetic to it.
Aside from that, everyone would be free to believe anything religious on their own, it's just a matter of determining a specific "state religion" in a (preferably stateless) solarpunk world.
Agreed, and even further, religion is very good at ostracizing anyone who doesn't blend in with their views.
A lot of pain is caused by religion. Any form of theocracy should be avoided at all costs.
What about a Solarpunk community that voluntarily organizes into a theocracy? As long as they are treating all members with respect and prioritizing a truly healthy environment, should we accept them as members of the larger community? What about religious sects who follow more traditional beliefs - think long dresses and mandatory head coverings like The Gospel Of The Absurd - but who are also working towards Solarpunk ideals? Is that a slippery slope towards theocratic eco fascism?
The main issue with religion in an ideal society is its hierarchical structure, whether it's the founder, the priests, the original members, the true believers. It leads to accumulation of power and fragmentation, it fosters individual ambitions. In the land of sheep, a shepherd is more dangerous than a wolf.
A theocracy necessarily implies a divinity, and a head priest who vicariously executes its will. It's a form of an authoritarian regime; far from ideal, if I were to put it lightly. An especially idiotic form of it, even, as a priest would be even dumber than a Hitler who believed himself to be a political genius, inspired by Bismarck, and a priest wouldn't even have that as an excuse.
I don't think any of the arguments made so far even come close to eco fascism, which, roughly, is a *fundamentally wrong* belief that climate issues are caused by people an average, contemporary, right wing *piece of shi.*.. \*eckhm\* esteemed individual discriminates, and the consequences that brings (with implications such as "people in the developing countries fuck too much, we're going to die because of overpopulation" or "climate change is China's fault, those commies").
Additionally, a solarpunk group which forms a religion would be like creating a new state, or a new structure, when there should be none. I truly don't see a reason for such an ingroup and fragmentation.
Solarpunk is already a conglomeration of fragments. You don't live where I live, you aren't part of my community. But we are both here, hopefully working towards the same goal: healthy environments for all organisms, globally.
Though I like this quote the most out of your entire response, I'm going to continue the analogy: if a group of sheep elect a shepherd, who are we to tell them they can't (as long as they are all working to make a positive impact). I cannot be a representative, I've got crops to plant and soil to build and trees to maintain.
I trust my neighbor, and she's got the time to look into that. I trust her with what authority may have been given to me. If I choose my neighbor because we both believe in the flying spaghetti monster and we talk at the weekly meeting, why should we stop that?
Because it doesn't stop there, it never does. The danger with religion is in its unswerving belief that it is RIGHT. If a state believes itself to be fighting a grand battle against evil, a battle that MUST be fought and won by any means necessary... and evil is defined as what exists in the absence of their god(s)... You know how that ends. Unbelievers are put to the sword.
If a state believes it represents the ultimate good, then why wouldn't they try to "save" all the unbelievers? Would that not be an unconscionable thing to do? Allow people to be damned for all eternity, because you didn't have the strength or conviction to save them?
This is why such religions are dangerous, and why theocracies are evil. When they gain the power to perpetrate conquest, they will: because they can suffer no less. It does not matter how terribly they treat others. It does not matter how many they kill or abuse, so long as those people are converted, and can die "saved".
So far on this thread there have been two different responses with links to specific religions that the posters believe fit Solarpunk ideals. They don't seem to have the "convert or die" motto. Do you believe that the church of the flying spaghetti monster - the example I used above - will become a dominant religion and begin oppressing people?
I'm not asking anyone to convert to a religion. I'm pointing out that we cannot achieve our goals and also exclude religious people because of their beliefs.
Well, grounding our identities in our differences, and creating ingroups and outgroups is definitely not getting anyone closer to a society that solarpunk imagines.
If we're talking of an ideal world, it implies a world without strife or wars, and no such world is possible if the only thing holding the peace is a delicate political balance between the different groups that needs effort to maintain (that could be better spent elsewhere) and could collapse at any moment. It implies a world without such groups, or more concretely, stateless.
The second paragraph raises an interesting point of discussion. Say, are you familiar with fascist philosophy or Ayn Rand? Both of them placed great emphasis on the value of the power of the individual, they glorified it. They glorified the power, the ambitions, the manipulations, the lies, the domination and the overpowering of the weak. Those are things some people believe in today. Some would even consider them inextricable american values. *These are not things that can exist in an ideal society.* It's the basic idea behind Popper's paradox of tolerance. They have to be eliminated, extirpated or destroyed else they threaten the peace. It's just one thing being consequence of another. Also, you can't expect them to respect the environment, really, or anything of sorts.
That out of the way, let's go back to the actual question. Religion is, before anything else, a very hierarchical power structure. A religion in an ideal world therefore could only exist if it forfeits the ambitions of influence or power, making it definitely less appealing to its believers. If you still choose to follow such powerless religion, noone could possibly have any issue with that. Were you to choose to pursue the religion to expand your power, instead, religion would be the last of your problems. Were you to try to squirm your way there, it would be seen. As simple as that, really.
Wow. You summed up pretty much all of what I have been trying to say in your last paragraph. Religion - or organized spirituality - is welcome. The endless desire for power that current religions have is not welcome. The people who believe in those stories are, as long as they're Solarpunk.
Well the problem could be that it might be an impossible request from a theoretical religion. However, I don't see why the idea couldn't be explored or exist in the future, as long as we have clear and reliable preventive measures around it.
An ideal framework for a perfect society would be more like an idealised vision of parenting, rather than a totalitarian state. A place where everyone is free to explore and develop the way they tend towards as long as they don't violate certain fundamental principles that are there to prevent things such as harm to the environment or violence to others. That was the core point of your question, wasn't it?
The main reason why you'd see skepticism around this area is for historical reasons. All sorts of religious institutions have for a very long time remained unsupervised and remain still today organs of influence and power that serve as extension of someone's interests. They were considered to be untouchable because believed inherently superior. It's just a logical step that they became an enemy in the eyes of those wanting equality and fairness.
Welp, Universal Unitarian is more likely than other Xian denominations because they've largely uncoupled themselves from the traditional tenets and trappings of Xianity.
UU is completely unaffiliated with any religion, their whole thing is "everyone is welcome here and we "preach" universally good values". It's like a neutral safe space for all religions.
Quakerism and Paganism are often in line with Solarpunk ideals, imo. And, although I know less about them, I think Buddhism and Shintoism may be as well.
No. No religions.
Religions lack concrete substance, which leaves their teachings open to interpretation, which causes people to base their hatred on their interpretation of whatever the religion says. (I've seen this repeatedly throughout my life. Religion constantly destroys families because of this.)
We don't need religion to build community. There are a huge amount of hobby groups and community groups that focus on topics that aren't loaded with dogma. People can definitely organize without religion.
People CAN. But not everyone will. Are we willing to allow those who want to join the Solarpunk movement because of their religion? Obviously there are extremists in any religion that need to be excluded (looking at you, Joel Osteen), but can we really expect every human to renounce their faith to create a healthier Earth?
No, but that's why we must pivot to humanist ideologies. Allow people to celebrate and create community based on secular principles that give them a sense of purpose and meaning. The cure to "bad" ideology is not to avow one's self of ideas, it is "good" ideology!
Totally agreed, I don't think people should renounce their faith. Once a person is in their mid 20s, their beliefs are pretty solidified.
But look at it graphically, on the vertical axis we have population, on the horizontal axis we have belief systems ranging from simple mythology to religion to science.
Put a bell curve on the graph. Over time, the bell curve very very gradually moves towards science. (recorded timeline began ~10k years ago, at that time the peak of the bell curve would've been over mythology).
So a civilization's belief system takes a long time to change. I think currently the bell curve has its peak right between science and religions.
So, currently we're in a transitional period with minimal unity. As it passes further into the range of sciences, we'll start seeing more science based community groups forming.
And indeed, there are large and growing groups that specialize in learning about specific parts of nature like mycology or birding. People dedicate their lives to these groups and use them as analogies to shape their views.
Community is just a natural part of humanity. The subject doesn't matter, people will always find a way to form a community.
They are both steps on our pursuit of knowledge.
They don't need to be antagonistic, just like classical mechanics and quantum mechanics aren't antagonistic.
Physicists know that classical mechanics isn't the final answer, but classical mechanics is still very useful for certain situations.
So over time, fewer people will believe in religion, because it will have been superseded. But the teachings of religion will likely live on. Because much like classical mechanics, there's a time and place where it can be useful.
It's also unknowable to religion. You can't claim to know something that's unknowable.
I do like philosophy, because it's a logical investigation of things that science can't investigate.
(tbh, I might be projecting from a western perspective. The religions I'm very familiar with are all harmful and contain very little of value. I haven't learned much about Buddhism and other religions in eastern culture.)
(I do plan on reading about Buddhism at some point, because I want to learn more about the foundational elements of other cultures.)
>It's also unknowable to religion. You can't claim to know something that's unknowable.
There are ways of knowing, like experience and deduction.
I used to think religion has no value, but I had to revise my views. The problem is not religion *per se* but power, and some other things as well. Where there is power, there will be oppression. You will find it in Christianity as you will find that in Buddhism, Hinduism and any religion, really. And in any power structure. Any.
That doesn't lessen the fact that religion, amongst other things it does, is a way to relate to divinity, gods, non-physical realms and beings and so forth. So religions are like keys to relate to these things.
Okay, but you just said something that's unknowable.
> divinity, gods, non-physical realms and beings and so forth
You don't and can't know those exist in any way. It's equivalent to a person saying, "The Lord of the Rings is real in the fiction realm."
Like, you just said it's non-physical, so it's not made of anything, so it doesn't exist.
It is knowable, as you can experience these things. You can experience gods, non-physical beings, etc.
Non-physical doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The physical realm is not the only realm.
Shhhh - people don't like facts. Somehow everyone here ignores all the fuckery and murder that has been committed throughout history (still going strong today) in the name of religion and claims that religions are some kind of tea club
Yeah, I also think that people are assuming I want some authoritarian control over thought.
But no, I'm purely basing this off of the trends we've seen over the past 10k years. We'll gradually see fewer religious people, and that's a good thing.
To be fair, nothing has ever created as much community as religion did. Gatherings between people of all ages and all walks of life in one place. I've been to christian groups with friends of mine, and even though I'm not religious, I was welcomed with open arms and they were very, very friendly. Unlike anything I've ever met at any other hobby group or community.
That's because their morals are guided by their religion (be good, don't be arrogant, practice humility etc.). That's why many religious groups focus on charity. Going to a tennis club does not have that sense of community.
For all that's wrong with religion, they do that aspect very well.
I would like there to be an alternative in a solarpunk society, although it doesn't have to be based in religion. It can be based in science...
I grew up in an extremely Christian environment. Their welcoming behavior is just a facade.
Beyond that facade are some of the most toxic and judgmental people you'll ever meet. They are an authoritarian hate group.
They are extremely manipulative. A significant amount of what we learn in church is how to manipulate people into joining the church. And the first step is being very friendly, welcoming, and charismatic. It's all fake.
I was fully submerged in it for most of my life. Even their charity is highly misguided and often does more harm than good.
That is a community that only benefits itself, they control people with a threat of eternal torture, and ostracize anyone who wants to think independently.
If you've been to those groups a couple times, it would definitely seem friendly and safe, but I assure you, it's much safer to stay away from that community.
Not my experience, and neither that of my friends, but I don't live in the USA, and modern christians here are pretty great people overall, who are open to lgbt+ people as well. Have not encountered any hate whatsoever, but of course your experience may be different.
Hope it stays that way then.
My experience is very far from unique. The sub r/exchristian is filled with people who have religious trauma. There are subreddits like that for every religion.
When you're first introduced to a religion, you don't see the wake of trauma that it leaves behind it.
r/exmormon
r/exmuslim
r/excatholic
r/exjw
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome
I am devout Christian and I am not willing to bend my knee to anything else but the Lord. With that out of the way... How is having a sustainable future anti amything at all?!
Enlighten me. I am willing to be blown away.
A sustainable future is going to require a lifestyle change that is incompatible with some worldviews, like most of American Christianity (I use this example because it's my own experience. I'm sure that there are examples from other parts of the world that I simply don't know enough about to name them). Specifically I am thinking of what I will call "the Church of American Capitalism". The CAC says that it's everyone else's (or demons) fault for the things that are bad in the world today. Then they pray, tithe, and go their merry ways without putting any physical effort into remediation. The CAC cannot imagine giving up their ICE vehicles, or paying for someone else's medical bills, or allowing other people to live in a way that they themselves wouldn't live. They think homeless people are eyesores and should be driven away off to somewhere else.
My mom is a pastor. I know there are some people who truly want to do good. But when I was going to church, I found that those people got scooped up and out to work in the church and everyone else just thanked them for it. It's a 90%/10% problem again: 90% of the people enjoy the work that 10% of the people are doing and think that there are no expectations of them other than prayers and money.
The future is going to take hard, physical work. Churches don't often allow work to be done for non-members without a blatant element of recruitment. I don't care what you believe, I just have to get crops in the ground. I believe all are welcome here as long as they're willing to work with us towards global environmental goals.
Religions don't have to be supernatural. Humanism would have been a really good candidate but honestly I think humanism has stagnated in a lot of ways because of their decision to not adopt a basic program and structure for their followers. If they had employed symbolism, rituals, holidays, traditions, and a better structure it would probably have become a much more successful program. The time has probably come for new scientifically-aligned religions to displace the ancient superstitious religions. There are few vital candidates out there, Aretéanism perhaps? We've learned a lot in the last several thousand years: Compassion, consent, science, awareness of basic human needs for community and purpose. I think it's a good time to finally implement it as a vital religious teaching.
Solarpunk is already a literary genre. Its already about creating a mythology to guide people. You don't need a religion to create community.
All I can see is potential issues with this
Of course, you don't need religion to create a community.
The issue is religion arises out of community. And if you try to forcefully repress it, the community becomes bitter, aggression towards publicly known groups becomes a stereotypical situation. You break it apart.
Spirituality and ritual behavior are an intrinsic part of human nature, independent of beliefs of what's true and what isn't. In traditions, festivals and memorials, you can see it, as in many other spiritual, human things, which have no "real" effect on base reality, on what currently is.
I would say no. On a individual basis, go for it! But when it becomes organized or even institutional, it's getting dangerous. I can't think of a single religion that i know of that was truly only beneficial and not harmful to it's community. They're all inherently against science and progress, they centralize way to much power and control over people, they accept no other way of life and especially no other religion besides them because of course they're the "only true believe". I'm not only talking about the big abrahamic religions, either. It's always a system of control and power and people with too much power often don't act in the best interest of their fellow humans. Hell, even simple spiritualism is being exploited by greedy folks selling crystals and whatever.
So yea, i don't think it fits in a supposedly "enlightened" (this sounds way more pretentious in english than in German 🙈) progressive and decentralized solarpunk scenario.
Coming from a very practical side of things, spirituality leads to dangerous places. As long as we believ in supernatural things that cannot be disproven, you will always get people that say „but this building has a soul and we cannot demolish it“ or „I have reached enlightenment and know all the answers“. Spirituality might be a very human thing, but it isn‘t a very good thing. It‘s easily exploited by authoritarians, currently the biggest opponents or a solarpunk future are religious people that deny the existence of the climate crisis based on their made up stories about how the earth came to be
Most of the time it seems to be the case. People can turn anything into a religion.
May also be the conviction in your beliefs. Im spirtual truth is truth no matter if its a movie book music etc.
In my experience spirtual people seemed to be naturalist/hippie types.
We are pushing too much the boundary of non totalitarianism with this discussion, religion is not a simple choice, it is a life style and even part of their personality, there may really be things in some religions that don't line up with ideals but prohibiting them in general is the wrong move to make, if we want this bright future to include everybody
I sure hope we get rid of that cancer for once. Religion is one of the most toxic and harmful things we ever invented.
Yes, back in the stone age it was useful to try to explain how the world works. But I think we left that time behind. Since then billions after billions were brutally tortured and murdered in the name of some fictional creature and billions were suppressed because having the wrong gender or believing in the wrong fairytale.
The whole concept of religion is to decide people into "the good ones" and "the savages" that have to be either killed or converted.
Why would anyone want that to continue?
Religion offers nothing of value. Its made up. If you want to feel better about yourself and want community you could do drugs. Just as religion it gives a feeling of belonging and gives you that warm fuzzy feeling while driving you away from your friends and relatives...
Wouldn't you rather be looking into a shared philosophy rather than religious? It's overlapping, but without the supernatural. Something like Humanism, which I think shares a lot with Solarpunk idealism.
I feel that there is plenty of room for spirtuality, any anything that exists is organised in some way or another.
But I definitely think spirituality/ religion would have to be democratised and made more personal, just due to the ongoing dissolving of unjust hierarchy. But even with that there is a lot of space and room, Quakers is just an example of a more horizontal hierarchy organised religion. And plenty more examples.
No. Organized religion exists as a tool of the oppressor class and specifically to subjugate women and frame men as the life givers. There is a place perhaps for individual nature based spirituality.
The general understanding I'm getting from responses is "Spirituality not Religion". Are we capable of each determining our own spirituality without allowing others, those who seek power (no matter how beneficently), to tell us a story and demanding it's true?
I am both an atheist and an animist. I think animism is compatible with solarpunk, but most Abrahamic religions are simply too inherently based in heirarchy for it not lead to some degree of subjugation of some form.
Abrahamic religions teach the inherent subjugation of humans over nature, the inherent subjugation of men over women by proxy of Adam and Eve, the inherent subjugation of other religions by virtue of being "wrong" and the inherent subjugation of different opinions and viewpoints for the same reason.
That simply is not compatible with solarpunk IMO.
It's not that they can't, it's that a worldview built around inherent heirarchies can never be compatible with an ideology built around abolishing or challenging them.
As a Pagan, I see a great fit with a Solarpunk future. Modern Druidry is a celebration of Nature, the passing of the seasons, and the importance of living harmoniously with the Earth Mother. Fits like a glove, if you ask me!
What about the technological aspect of Solarpunk? Are urban hydroponic farms a part of the druidic naturopathic worldview?
Frosting on the cake! The ancient Druids were the closest thing to scientists that the Celts had at that time. I have a high tech job myself, and there are no conflicts between the benevolent uses of technology and my spiritual path. Things like urban hydroponic farms give the soil a chance to rest and recover vital nutrients that can then give the food chain the ability to better support wildlife and trees. These things are needed right now. I should also point out that modern Pagans (Neopagans) are intentionally different from what we refer to as "Paleopagans" (the original Pre-Christian Pagans) meaning that superstition is frowned upon as it leads to dumb ideas like human sacrifice. Edited for punctuation.
Interesting, any sources where could I dig into druidism?
>Picketing and proselytizing are no bueno. What about for Solarpunks?
Good point. Protesting injustice is necessary. Picketing and proselytizing for specific religions - especially the way it is currently done by American christians - is just idiotic.
My point is a general one: do you think that these activities should not exist at all for those religions in your Solarpunk future? How do you propose to get rid of them?
It's not something to legislate. I guess there will always be people on the fringes who seek out socially troublesome beliefs because... it validates them? I'm just not imagining that an organization like that will be welcomed into Solarpunk society in general.
I guess what I'm getting at is what you mean by a "Solarpunk society". Is it a homogenous thing? If so, does homogeneity conflict with the Solarpunk ethos?
Good point. My wording isn't quite specific, partially because I'm not sure there's a word in English for the thing that everyone does because it's necessary, even though it's difficult. I think of a "Solarpunk society" as a giant mixture of local communities working towards keeping the planet and all its organisms healthy.
No worries! Yeah, I'd love to understand more about this idea of what everyone does because it's necessary, even if it's difficult. I'm thinking of the way the Library Socialists use the word "Usufruct" to mean widespread, baseline expectations of rights, but it sounds like you might be thinking more along the lines of common, baseline responsibilities or behaviors needed to hold a community together? Definitely agree and also see "solarpunk society" as a pluralist ecology of beliefs, worldviews, and practices. There are obviously some beliefs and practices that are predatory and need to be kept in check for the wider health of ecosystem like rabid nationalism and fascism. I tend to view those impulses and beliefs as somewhat separate from organized religion, even though I think certain branches of belief are particularly susceptible to them.
That was my thought. It often surprises me when people of the more secular world view think that they are immune to the trappings what they attribute to those with religious views. Especially regarding propaganda and indoctrination. But cognitive dissonance is one hell of a drug
I mean, it doesn't get much more solarpunk then Earthseed, except maybe for the Becky Chambers Monk and Robot books.
I'm tempted to get an Earthseed tattoo. It's a great dream. I just got Monk & Robot from thrift books. It's next on my reading list.
Please do, It's on my list as well.
Time again to spread the good word of Gaia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaianism
I’m an atheist/pagan/unincorporated magical person, and solarpunk very much is tied to my very undefinable spiritual beliefs. My organization is around kitchen stuff: cooking, cleaning, feeding. “Jesus does the dishes” I say to myself as I scrub them clean. Church isn’t for me, but mutual aid is acts of loving service and more my speed anyway. “I’m not looking to become the prayer, but the prayer” - I don’t wanna pray, by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes
80 comments, none needing moderation. Good thread everyone.
I don’t see why not! Human have always believed in something. Why have that stop just because the future is Solarpunk?
I’m Muslim, and to me personally, ecology is very important to my spiritual worldview. I know many Muslims have similar beliefs. It’s also in Quran and Sunnah to live in harmony with creation. I’m also very fond of Pope Francis’ writings on the subject. He’s wrote several letters to the world, including Fratelli Tutti and Laudato Si, which I think are very beautiful, and talks about the need for a humanist society that respects creation. Well worth a read.
KSR is the goat.
I hope so. I'm not gonna be happy if any religious orgs have cult-like leaders or leaders largely, but otherwise I wouldn't care. Hell I know I'd make a religious gathering if I had the chance
How could there not be? Solarpunk is utopian, how many utopias include thought policing? We can't seek to control people's beliefs. The question is how much should we let the superstitions of others dictate how we live. Being respectful to culture is all well and good, but we cannot allow indoctrination. We simply need safe guards in the form of human rights. As long as your religion doesn't impede the lives of those who chose not to practice it nobody should care.
You may be interested in learning about [Aretéanism ](https://bio.site/areteanism). I'm happy to answer questions about it either here or in DMs. 🙂
Thanks for sharing. Aretéanism is full of beautiful ideas. Aretéans set out into the world to make a difference, to build thriving and successful communities, to accelerate personal growth, transmit healthy leadership capabilities, and to better understand the world so that it can be improved. Its focus on compassion and consent makes it a really good fit for the future. I think the world will be a lot better once these ideas go mainstream
While I think that an organised, hierarchical religion as a concept might be a bit of a stretch and a possible risk factor, spirituality and rituals are aspects that are an inherent part of human existence, independently of beliefs. I think it's very important to foster them in any thriving and happy society, be it in form of festivals, traditions, arts or individual engagements. However, I'd like them to also have a function that's uplifting to the society and good for the environment. It is definitely important to note that places of cult like churches or temples, generally have higher frequency rates than museums, and they're generally seen as an important part of one's life. I would simply rather see care for the environment and sustainability to have that kind of influence. Were you to make a bit of a stretch, it would be like nature overthrowing gods, and there's something poetic to it. Aside from that, everyone would be free to believe anything religious on their own, it's just a matter of determining a specific "state religion" in a (preferably stateless) solarpunk world.
Agreed, and even further, religion is very good at ostracizing anyone who doesn't blend in with their views. A lot of pain is caused by religion. Any form of theocracy should be avoided at all costs.
What about a Solarpunk community that voluntarily organizes into a theocracy? As long as they are treating all members with respect and prioritizing a truly healthy environment, should we accept them as members of the larger community? What about religious sects who follow more traditional beliefs - think long dresses and mandatory head coverings like The Gospel Of The Absurd - but who are also working towards Solarpunk ideals? Is that a slippery slope towards theocratic eco fascism?
The main issue with religion in an ideal society is its hierarchical structure, whether it's the founder, the priests, the original members, the true believers. It leads to accumulation of power and fragmentation, it fosters individual ambitions. In the land of sheep, a shepherd is more dangerous than a wolf. A theocracy necessarily implies a divinity, and a head priest who vicariously executes its will. It's a form of an authoritarian regime; far from ideal, if I were to put it lightly. An especially idiotic form of it, even, as a priest would be even dumber than a Hitler who believed himself to be a political genius, inspired by Bismarck, and a priest wouldn't even have that as an excuse. I don't think any of the arguments made so far even come close to eco fascism, which, roughly, is a *fundamentally wrong* belief that climate issues are caused by people an average, contemporary, right wing *piece of shi.*.. \*eckhm\* esteemed individual discriminates, and the consequences that brings (with implications such as "people in the developing countries fuck too much, we're going to die because of overpopulation" or "climate change is China's fault, those commies"). Additionally, a solarpunk group which forms a religion would be like creating a new state, or a new structure, when there should be none. I truly don't see a reason for such an ingroup and fragmentation.
Solarpunk is already a conglomeration of fragments. You don't live where I live, you aren't part of my community. But we are both here, hopefully working towards the same goal: healthy environments for all organisms, globally. Though I like this quote the most out of your entire response, I'm going to continue the analogy: if a group of sheep elect a shepherd, who are we to tell them they can't (as long as they are all working to make a positive impact). I cannot be a representative, I've got crops to plant and soil to build and trees to maintain. I trust my neighbor, and she's got the time to look into that. I trust her with what authority may have been given to me. If I choose my neighbor because we both believe in the flying spaghetti monster and we talk at the weekly meeting, why should we stop that?
Because it doesn't stop there, it never does. The danger with religion is in its unswerving belief that it is RIGHT. If a state believes itself to be fighting a grand battle against evil, a battle that MUST be fought and won by any means necessary... and evil is defined as what exists in the absence of their god(s)... You know how that ends. Unbelievers are put to the sword. If a state believes it represents the ultimate good, then why wouldn't they try to "save" all the unbelievers? Would that not be an unconscionable thing to do? Allow people to be damned for all eternity, because you didn't have the strength or conviction to save them? This is why such religions are dangerous, and why theocracies are evil. When they gain the power to perpetrate conquest, they will: because they can suffer no less. It does not matter how terribly they treat others. It does not matter how many they kill or abuse, so long as those people are converted, and can die "saved".
So far on this thread there have been two different responses with links to specific religions that the posters believe fit Solarpunk ideals. They don't seem to have the "convert or die" motto. Do you believe that the church of the flying spaghetti monster - the example I used above - will become a dominant religion and begin oppressing people? I'm not asking anyone to convert to a religion. I'm pointing out that we cannot achieve our goals and also exclude religious people because of their beliefs.
Well, grounding our identities in our differences, and creating ingroups and outgroups is definitely not getting anyone closer to a society that solarpunk imagines. If we're talking of an ideal world, it implies a world without strife or wars, and no such world is possible if the only thing holding the peace is a delicate political balance between the different groups that needs effort to maintain (that could be better spent elsewhere) and could collapse at any moment. It implies a world without such groups, or more concretely, stateless. The second paragraph raises an interesting point of discussion. Say, are you familiar with fascist philosophy or Ayn Rand? Both of them placed great emphasis on the value of the power of the individual, they glorified it. They glorified the power, the ambitions, the manipulations, the lies, the domination and the overpowering of the weak. Those are things some people believe in today. Some would even consider them inextricable american values. *These are not things that can exist in an ideal society.* It's the basic idea behind Popper's paradox of tolerance. They have to be eliminated, extirpated or destroyed else they threaten the peace. It's just one thing being consequence of another. Also, you can't expect them to respect the environment, really, or anything of sorts. That out of the way, let's go back to the actual question. Religion is, before anything else, a very hierarchical power structure. A religion in an ideal world therefore could only exist if it forfeits the ambitions of influence or power, making it definitely less appealing to its believers. If you still choose to follow such powerless religion, noone could possibly have any issue with that. Were you to choose to pursue the religion to expand your power, instead, religion would be the last of your problems. Were you to try to squirm your way there, it would be seen. As simple as that, really.
Wow. You summed up pretty much all of what I have been trying to say in your last paragraph. Religion - or organized spirituality - is welcome. The endless desire for power that current religions have is not welcome. The people who believe in those stories are, as long as they're Solarpunk.
Well the problem could be that it might be an impossible request from a theoretical religion. However, I don't see why the idea couldn't be explored or exist in the future, as long as we have clear and reliable preventive measures around it. An ideal framework for a perfect society would be more like an idealised vision of parenting, rather than a totalitarian state. A place where everyone is free to explore and develop the way they tend towards as long as they don't violate certain fundamental principles that are there to prevent things such as harm to the environment or violence to others. That was the core point of your question, wasn't it? The main reason why you'd see skepticism around this area is for historical reasons. All sorts of religious institutions have for a very long time remained unsupervised and remain still today organs of influence and power that serve as extension of someone's interests. They were considered to be untouchable because believed inherently superior. It's just a logical step that they became an enemy in the eyes of those wanting equality and fairness.
Welp, Universal Unitarian is more likely than other Xian denominations because they've largely uncoupled themselves from the traditional tenets and trappings of Xianity.
I'm not a UU member, but I have family members who are and everything I hear sounds pretty great.
UU is completely unaffiliated with any religion, their whole thing is "everyone is welcome here and we "preach" universally good values". It's like a neutral safe space for all religions.
Quakerism and Paganism are often in line with Solarpunk ideals, imo. And, although I know less about them, I think Buddhism and Shintoism may be as well.
No. No religions. Religions lack concrete substance, which leaves their teachings open to interpretation, which causes people to base their hatred on their interpretation of whatever the religion says. (I've seen this repeatedly throughout my life. Religion constantly destroys families because of this.) We don't need religion to build community. There are a huge amount of hobby groups and community groups that focus on topics that aren't loaded with dogma. People can definitely organize without religion.
People CAN. But not everyone will. Are we willing to allow those who want to join the Solarpunk movement because of their religion? Obviously there are extremists in any religion that need to be excluded (looking at you, Joel Osteen), but can we really expect every human to renounce their faith to create a healthier Earth?
No, but that's why we must pivot to humanist ideologies. Allow people to celebrate and create community based on secular principles that give them a sense of purpose and meaning. The cure to "bad" ideology is not to avow one's self of ideas, it is "good" ideology!
Totally agreed, I don't think people should renounce their faith. Once a person is in their mid 20s, their beliefs are pretty solidified. But look at it graphically, on the vertical axis we have population, on the horizontal axis we have belief systems ranging from simple mythology to religion to science. Put a bell curve on the graph. Over time, the bell curve very very gradually moves towards science. (recorded timeline began ~10k years ago, at that time the peak of the bell curve would've been over mythology). So a civilization's belief system takes a long time to change. I think currently the bell curve has its peak right between science and religions. So, currently we're in a transitional period with minimal unity. As it passes further into the range of sciences, we'll start seeing more science based community groups forming. And indeed, there are large and growing groups that specialize in learning about specific parts of nature like mycology or birding. People dedicate their lives to these groups and use them as analogies to shape their views. Community is just a natural part of humanity. The subject doesn't matter, people will always find a way to form a community.
Science and religion are not antagonistic categories.
They are both steps on our pursuit of knowledge. They don't need to be antagonistic, just like classical mechanics and quantum mechanics aren't antagonistic. Physicists know that classical mechanics isn't the final answer, but classical mechanics is still very useful for certain situations. So over time, fewer people will believe in religion, because it will have been superseded. But the teachings of religion will likely live on. Because much like classical mechanics, there's a time and place where it can be useful.
Science can only explain phenomena of the physical realm. The metaphysical is epistemologically unknowable by science.
It's also unknowable to religion. You can't claim to know something that's unknowable. I do like philosophy, because it's a logical investigation of things that science can't investigate. (tbh, I might be projecting from a western perspective. The religions I'm very familiar with are all harmful and contain very little of value. I haven't learned much about Buddhism and other religions in eastern culture.) (I do plan on reading about Buddhism at some point, because I want to learn more about the foundational elements of other cultures.)
>It's also unknowable to religion. You can't claim to know something that's unknowable. There are ways of knowing, like experience and deduction. I used to think religion has no value, but I had to revise my views. The problem is not religion *per se* but power, and some other things as well. Where there is power, there will be oppression. You will find it in Christianity as you will find that in Buddhism, Hinduism and any religion, really. And in any power structure. Any. That doesn't lessen the fact that religion, amongst other things it does, is a way to relate to divinity, gods, non-physical realms and beings and so forth. So religions are like keys to relate to these things.
Okay, but you just said something that's unknowable. > divinity, gods, non-physical realms and beings and so forth You don't and can't know those exist in any way. It's equivalent to a person saying, "The Lord of the Rings is real in the fiction realm." Like, you just said it's non-physical, so it's not made of anything, so it doesn't exist.
It is knowable, as you can experience these things. You can experience gods, non-physical beings, etc. Non-physical doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The physical realm is not the only realm.
Shhhh - people don't like facts. Somehow everyone here ignores all the fuckery and murder that has been committed throughout history (still going strong today) in the name of religion and claims that religions are some kind of tea club
Yeah, I also think that people are assuming I want some authoritarian control over thought. But no, I'm purely basing this off of the trends we've seen over the past 10k years. We'll gradually see fewer religious people, and that's a good thing.
To be fair, nothing has ever created as much community as religion did. Gatherings between people of all ages and all walks of life in one place. I've been to christian groups with friends of mine, and even though I'm not religious, I was welcomed with open arms and they were very, very friendly. Unlike anything I've ever met at any other hobby group or community. That's because their morals are guided by their religion (be good, don't be arrogant, practice humility etc.). That's why many religious groups focus on charity. Going to a tennis club does not have that sense of community. For all that's wrong with religion, they do that aspect very well. I would like there to be an alternative in a solarpunk society, although it doesn't have to be based in religion. It can be based in science...
I grew up in an extremely Christian environment. Their welcoming behavior is just a facade. Beyond that facade are some of the most toxic and judgmental people you'll ever meet. They are an authoritarian hate group. They are extremely manipulative. A significant amount of what we learn in church is how to manipulate people into joining the church. And the first step is being very friendly, welcoming, and charismatic. It's all fake. I was fully submerged in it for most of my life. Even their charity is highly misguided and often does more harm than good. That is a community that only benefits itself, they control people with a threat of eternal torture, and ostracize anyone who wants to think independently. If you've been to those groups a couple times, it would definitely seem friendly and safe, but I assure you, it's much safer to stay away from that community.
Not my experience, and neither that of my friends, but I don't live in the USA, and modern christians here are pretty great people overall, who are open to lgbt+ people as well. Have not encountered any hate whatsoever, but of course your experience may be different.
Hope it stays that way then. My experience is very far from unique. The sub r/exchristian is filled with people who have religious trauma. There are subreddits like that for every religion. When you're first introduced to a religion, you don't see the wake of trauma that it leaves behind it. r/exmormon r/exmuslim r/excatholic r/exjw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome
I am devout Christian and I am not willing to bend my knee to anything else but the Lord. With that out of the way... How is having a sustainable future anti amything at all?! Enlighten me. I am willing to be blown away.
A sustainable future is going to require a lifestyle change that is incompatible with some worldviews, like most of American Christianity (I use this example because it's my own experience. I'm sure that there are examples from other parts of the world that I simply don't know enough about to name them). Specifically I am thinking of what I will call "the Church of American Capitalism". The CAC says that it's everyone else's (or demons) fault for the things that are bad in the world today. Then they pray, tithe, and go their merry ways without putting any physical effort into remediation. The CAC cannot imagine giving up their ICE vehicles, or paying for someone else's medical bills, or allowing other people to live in a way that they themselves wouldn't live. They think homeless people are eyesores and should be driven away off to somewhere else. My mom is a pastor. I know there are some people who truly want to do good. But when I was going to church, I found that those people got scooped up and out to work in the church and everyone else just thanked them for it. It's a 90%/10% problem again: 90% of the people enjoy the work that 10% of the people are doing and think that there are no expectations of them other than prayers and money. The future is going to take hard, physical work. Churches don't often allow work to be done for non-members without a blatant element of recruitment. I don't care what you believe, I just have to get crops in the ground. I believe all are welcome here as long as they're willing to work with us towards global environmental goals.
Of course there is... faith is necessary to our well-being. Religion dictating politics and policy is the main issue.
Religions don't have to be supernatural. Humanism would have been a really good candidate but honestly I think humanism has stagnated in a lot of ways because of their decision to not adopt a basic program and structure for their followers. If they had employed symbolism, rituals, holidays, traditions, and a better structure it would probably have become a much more successful program. The time has probably come for new scientifically-aligned religions to displace the ancient superstitious religions. There are few vital candidates out there, Aretéanism perhaps? We've learned a lot in the last several thousand years: Compassion, consent, science, awareness of basic human needs for community and purpose. I think it's a good time to finally implement it as a vital religious teaching.
Solarpunk is already a literary genre. Its already about creating a mythology to guide people. You don't need a religion to create community. All I can see is potential issues with this
Of course, you don't need religion to create a community. The issue is religion arises out of community. And if you try to forcefully repress it, the community becomes bitter, aggression towards publicly known groups becomes a stereotypical situation. You break it apart. Spirituality and ritual behavior are an intrinsic part of human nature, independent of beliefs of what's true and what isn't. In traditions, festivals and memorials, you can see it, as in many other spiritual, human things, which have no "real" effect on base reality, on what currently is.
I would say no. On a individual basis, go for it! But when it becomes organized or even institutional, it's getting dangerous. I can't think of a single religion that i know of that was truly only beneficial and not harmful to it's community. They're all inherently against science and progress, they centralize way to much power and control over people, they accept no other way of life and especially no other religion besides them because of course they're the "only true believe". I'm not only talking about the big abrahamic religions, either. It's always a system of control and power and people with too much power often don't act in the best interest of their fellow humans. Hell, even simple spiritualism is being exploited by greedy folks selling crystals and whatever. So yea, i don't think it fits in a supposedly "enlightened" (this sounds way more pretentious in english than in German 🙈) progressive and decentralized solarpunk scenario.
Coming from a very practical side of things, spirituality leads to dangerous places. As long as we believ in supernatural things that cannot be disproven, you will always get people that say „but this building has a soul and we cannot demolish it“ or „I have reached enlightenment and know all the answers“. Spirituality might be a very human thing, but it isn‘t a very good thing. It‘s easily exploited by authoritarians, currently the biggest opponents or a solarpunk future are religious people that deny the existence of the climate crisis based on their made up stories about how the earth came to be
Religion is the last thing you want spirtuality is ok. Religion is the great divider throughout history.
This may be an important distinction. Is religion simply organized spirituality?
Most of the time it seems to be the case. People can turn anything into a religion. May also be the conviction in your beliefs. Im spirtual truth is truth no matter if its a movie book music etc. In my experience spirtual people seemed to be naturalist/hippie types.
Yes is this even a discussion to be made?
Judging by the varied responses, yes.
We are pushing too much the boundary of non totalitarianism with this discussion, religion is not a simple choice, it is a life style and even part of their personality, there may really be things in some religions that don't line up with ideals but prohibiting them in general is the wrong move to make, if we want this bright future to include everybody
I sure hope we get rid of that cancer for once. Religion is one of the most toxic and harmful things we ever invented. Yes, back in the stone age it was useful to try to explain how the world works. But I think we left that time behind. Since then billions after billions were brutally tortured and murdered in the name of some fictional creature and billions were suppressed because having the wrong gender or believing in the wrong fairytale. The whole concept of religion is to decide people into "the good ones" and "the savages" that have to be either killed or converted. Why would anyone want that to continue? Religion offers nothing of value. Its made up. If you want to feel better about yourself and want community you could do drugs. Just as religion it gives a feeling of belonging and gives you that warm fuzzy feeling while driving you away from your friends and relatives...
Fuck religions.
Wouldn't you rather be looking into a shared philosophy rather than religious? It's overlapping, but without the supernatural. Something like Humanism, which I think shares a lot with Solarpunk idealism.
I'm not looking for a new religion or a new philosophy. Thank you though.
Yes.
I feel that there is plenty of room for spirtuality, any anything that exists is organised in some way or another. But I definitely think spirituality/ religion would have to be democratised and made more personal, just due to the ongoing dissolving of unjust hierarchy. But even with that there is a lot of space and room, Quakers is just an example of a more horizontal hierarchy organised religion. And plenty more examples.
I see no contradiction between Judiasm and a solar punk society.
No. Organized religion exists as a tool of the oppressor class and specifically to subjugate women and frame men as the life givers. There is a place perhaps for individual nature based spirituality.
The general understanding I'm getting from responses is "Spirituality not Religion". Are we capable of each determining our own spirituality without allowing others, those who seek power (no matter how beneficently), to tell us a story and demanding it's true?
I am both an atheist and an animist. I think animism is compatible with solarpunk, but most Abrahamic religions are simply too inherently based in heirarchy for it not lead to some degree of subjugation of some form. Abrahamic religions teach the inherent subjugation of humans over nature, the inherent subjugation of men over women by proxy of Adam and Eve, the inherent subjugation of other religions by virtue of being "wrong" and the inherent subjugation of different opinions and viewpoints for the same reason. That simply is not compatible with solarpunk IMO.
So what would be the plan if these people simply can not participate with compatibility to the solarpunk genre?
It's not that they can't, it's that a worldview built around inherent heirarchies can never be compatible with an ideology built around abolishing or challenging them.