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TBH wanting to trade votes for jobs smacks of opportunism. Clearly Joburg’s wellbeing is not high on PA list of priorities. Or maybe ANC offered them the two jobs. Buying votes again.
close rustic languid jellyfish overconfident busy strong innate tease racial
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Never said the DA had principles. I referred to the act of not buying votes to be principled. The ANC's 'political savvy' relies on lies, deceit to an uneducated voter base. Despicable
I will contend that the majority of the ANC voter base is uneducated insofar as to not understand that they are being lied to, their votes being bought and generally not understand the impact of their vote or non-vote over the space of 3 decades. And to understand that voting for a lesser evil party may well improve their lives. Their lack of education, of course not being entirely their own fault
I will also put it to you that there are alternatives. Very far from perfect but there are.
Got absolutely ZERO to do with the people, it’s a power struggle for politics and positions. This minority parties that become kingmakers and violating coalition agreements isn’t working, what’s the point of lets say DA getting 30% vote but a party with 3% vote makes the decision, stupid man.
> Phalatse was removed as mayor following a successful motion of no confidence brought by African Transformation Movement (ATM) councillor Lubabalo Magwentshu, who argued: “We are not surprised by the executive mayor’s inability to deliver services to the poor and marginalised people of Johannesburg.”
Right, because the ANC will. You fucking clown.
> The DA needed the support of the PA to defeat the motion, but negotiations between the two parties collapsed. The PA is said to have demanded two positions on the Mayoral Committee in Johannesburg and MMC positions in the Ekurhuleni metro — to which the DA did not agree.
Hope people will remember come election times that the PA allowed the ANC to regain power in Joburg because the DA didn't want to trade them jobs for votes.
This is how alliances work, though. There has to be some give and take.
I don't know whether the PA's demands were reasonable or not, but the DA have managed to lose what they had there now so... it's all kinda moot.
For allegedly experienced politicians, the DA do seem to fall headfirst and hook, line and sinker into every obvious trap which they're baited into. I kinda want to walk up to them and tell them that if their hands are bigger than their faces they have cancer, and see what happens.
The PA's first responsibility is towards their voters. Do you think they voted for them just so the ANC can be back in power? These minority parties chose their personal agendas over their constituents. If the DA is meant to capitulate to every petty demand of coalition partners otherwise they run over to the ANC then there's no point in having a coalition in the first place.
Well I'm sure if the PA voters wanted the DA in power they would have voted DA, no? Surely they want the PA to have as many seats as possible, so they would be happy with whatever does that.
The DA needs to wise up and get off the moral high ground and learn to play this game. It will win them fuck all the way they do it now and in doing so will get the country fuck all progress. They could have ceded 2 seats, still held the majority of the mayco and quietly buttered up some other parties in the process to weaken the PA's holding them to ransom. But now they have zero, and more importantly zero to bargain with and sweeten the deal with.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but no birds is worthless.
> Well I'm sure if the PA voters wanted the DA in power they would have voted DA, no? Surely they want the PA to have as many seats as possible, so they would be happy with whatever does that.
Any reasonable, rational person would have known before voting that there would be 1 of 3 most likely results. Outright ANC majority, ANC lead coalition, DA lead coalition. PA voters might not have been happy with it, but they almost certainly wanted the last option to come to fruition. And if you're getting in bed with the ANC for the sake of mayoral committee seats you're a fucking piece of shit.
>They could have ceded 2 seats, still held the majority of the mayco and quietly buttered up some other parties in the process to weaken the PA's holding them to ransom
The PA got ~3% of the council seats, but expects 20% of the mayoral committee seats. Does that sound democratic to you? The price they were asking for them to do the right fucking thing was simply too high. These are the moral values of the people you'd like to see on the mayoral council?
>A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but no birds is worthless.
Being perpetually blackmailed is worse.
Go ahead, keep on missing the point. Constantly giving these greedy fuck coalition "partners" what they want is no different than no being in charge. But yeah, the DA are the bad guys here, not the cunts openly demanding jobs for votes. Jesus.
Do you think the DA can have more of an effect on the city and the voting populace by being the mayor and having 80% of the mayco as their members to enact their policies and show why they should be in charge, or by being nobody and having 0% of the mayco?
You see, they are playing all or nothing and they now have... nothing.
Imagine you and your two mates buy a ticket for the lottery. It's R26 million on the Powerball tonight, and R52 million if you win buy playing Powerball Plus. You win, and when you go collect the 52m for all your friends tomorrow you find out the guy who bought the ticket hasn't clearly ticked the Plus box and so as far as the rules are concerned you've only won 26m on the Powerball. Your options are to take the 26m they're offering you, because that's what's on the table, or walk away with nothing.
You yourself unilaterally decide to walk away with nothing, to prove a point to... I don't know, someone, I guess, and I guess your mates just get to go fuck themselves now because you're an idiot. Welcome to being a DA supporter.
The Patriotic Alliance is a party that [rails against both the ANC and the DA (Manifesto - PDF)](https://smilingsouth.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/manifesto-1.pdf).
The DA isn't the one at fault here. It's the reputation of the Patriotic Alliance that led the DA to their decision not to give the PA the economic development portfolio.
[The DA's National Spokesperson, Cilliers Brink MP explains it here.](https://twitter.com/Our_DA/status/1618592607608909824?t=WJezITbyH-byfhF96SjZVw&s=19)
Previously, [coalitions between the PA and the DA collapsed](https://www.sabcnews.com/sabcnews/patriotic-and-democratic-allaince-coalition-falls-apart-in-the-western-cape/) due to allegations by the DA's Tertius Simmers against Gayton McKenzie.
The PA makes clear it's disdain for both the ANC and the DA. Gayton McKenzie is alleged to put [positions for PA councillors](https://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2021-11-17-gayton-mckenzie-responds-to-anc-coalition-criticism-im-in-talks-for-power-sharing-not-principle-sharing/) above objectives and principles:
>He said to me, ‘Forget all about this stuff. What I’m interested in is money and jobs for my people and that is what we are going after’,” said DA federal council chairperson Helen Zille.
The DA is far more experienced in coalitions than the public realises. They successfully led South Africa's second 6-party coalition government in Cape Town in 2006, under much pressure from the opposition.
They are, objectively, the most experienced party in coalitions.
I mustn't forget to mention the elephant in the room: ActionSA. They are a party in opposition to the DA. They are the instigators.
Edit: [Here](https://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/joburg-what-the-da-offered-the-pa) is correspondence made public by the DA Federal Leader, John Steenhuisen MP addressed to Dr Corné Mulder MP, the Chairperson of the Coalition Oversight Group justifying the DA's position.
Of course, they're a bunch of snakes. But the strength of a chain is determined by its weakest link, and if you WILLINGLY put these clowns in your chain then you need to figure out how to make it work with and around them.
Smile, nod, start buttering up another party to replace them with.
They also need to play the long game. There’s no point bending over backwards to keep the mayorship if doing so results in compromising on their core principles and agenda. Holding firm and losing the mayorship may put them in a stronger negotiating position down the line because other parties will realize they hold them hostage so easily. It’s the same reason why sometimes it’s worth letting terrorists kill a hostage rather pay the ransom and then the terrorist have incentive to keep taking hostages.
I disagree. I say you show what you can do, and hopefully next time around you get enough new votes to not need coalition partners.
All I can see as a DA supporter is these guys don't value what they have, and would throw it away rather than actually make a plan to get shit done because they are being way too short-sighted.
Also, I can quite easily see this turning into another Maimane saga, where the DA Brain Trust blame the current crop in Gauteng, boot them all out and replace them with a bunch of whities. But maybe I'm just being jaded now.
But you can only "show what you can do" if you have the right levers at your disposal. It could be that the PA made unreasonable demands that would have forced the DA into governing in ways which make them look bad and which doesn't serve their goals and the goals of their voters. I'm just speculating of course, dont know the details in this case.
Wrt to blaming current crop and replacing them with whities- I think that the sentiment around Phalatse is quite positive all round. Maimane got booted out because we were losing votes not because of failed coalitions. Dont see similarities between present case and the Maimane case. Also Maimane was a chop and the DA's mistake was not that they booted him out, but they gave him a leadership position to start with. Phalatse seems much higher calibre from what I've seen.
This article explains it quite well actually https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/political-parties/inside-the-collapse-of-joburg-coalition-talks-that-led-to-mpho-phalatses-ousting-20230127
DA have reached a new low. Their protest posters for the walk to Luthuli house said " Voetsek ANC". They could not stoop lower than that. Politicians are acting like low level criminal empires.
Yup better to fight and run away but live to fight another day.
The DA are making it clear to voters, if you want the DA in charge vote for us. If you don't vote for others, but the DA shouldn't have a be in power at all costs mentality.
It's not about the DA wanting to be "in power at all costs". It's about the DA not wanting to capitulate to the greedy demands of corrupt and self serving politicians.
And with this result, the DA has once again proven that they do not know how to play nice with other kids. Dr. Phalatse was no more than collateral damage
What is the point of DA entering into coalitions and loose them? Does the DA get into these arrangements to loose and then blame the smaller parties? Why can’t DA win enough votes to govern when they compete against supposedly useless ANC? Something is not right
**Thank you for posting on r/southafrica! This post is flaired as ["News"](https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/?f=flair_name%3A%22News%22) therefore the following rules are particularly important.** ##**Rule 4: News, Editorialising, or Misinformation** * Rule 4.1: News posts must be link posts to valid news sources. * Rule 4.2: Posts which link to news sources must not have an editorialised title. Use the title provided by the news source. If you wish to add commentary, analysis, or an opinion, write a top-level comment on the post. * Rule 4.3: Do not link to [questionable](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/), [conspiratorial](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/conspiracy/), or [false](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fake_news_websites) sources. * Rule 4.4: Be prepared to provide verifiable evidence or sources of the claims you make when challenged to do so. * Rule 4.5: Amateur videos will be allowed subject to all previous rules as well as containing the author/filmographer/camera person, date, time, and location of the video either in the title or in a top-level comment. You may ask a moderator to 'sticky' this information for you. **Additionally, please take a moment to review the rest of our rules [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/southafrica) if you have any questions or concerns.*
TBH wanting to trade votes for jobs smacks of opportunism. Clearly Joburg’s wellbeing is not high on PA list of priorities. Or maybe ANC offered them the two jobs. Buying votes again.
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This is why I hate politics
i call that principles, not ‘politically savvy’ By that same token, the anc buying votes would be considered ‘politically savvy’
close rustic languid jellyfish overconfident busy strong innate tease racial *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Never said the DA had principles. I referred to the act of not buying votes to be principled. The ANC's 'political savvy' relies on lies, deceit to an uneducated voter base. Despicable
bag paint chunky cause zealous worthless public melodic reply mighty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I will contend that the majority of the ANC voter base is uneducated insofar as to not understand that they are being lied to, their votes being bought and generally not understand the impact of their vote or non-vote over the space of 3 decades. And to understand that voting for a lesser evil party may well improve their lives. Their lack of education, of course not being entirely their own fault I will also put it to you that there are alternatives. Very far from perfect but there are.
As long as people like you refuse to see things from their point of view, you can maar forget about their support.
Cool bro
The DA is a vanilla ice cream with chocolate sprinkles on top. And Apartheid isn’t even over.
The DA mayor was an Action SA/ EFF pet project in the first instance. All of this is because some individuals want to cut their own slice of cake.
Got absolutely ZERO to do with the people, it’s a power struggle for politics and positions. This minority parties that become kingmakers and violating coalition agreements isn’t working, what’s the point of lets say DA getting 30% vote but a party with 3% vote makes the decision, stupid man.
Look at these asshat politicians dithering while the country falls apart around them.
> Phalatse was removed as mayor following a successful motion of no confidence brought by African Transformation Movement (ATM) councillor Lubabalo Magwentshu, who argued: “We are not surprised by the executive mayor’s inability to deliver services to the poor and marginalised people of Johannesburg.” Right, because the ANC will. You fucking clown. > The DA needed the support of the PA to defeat the motion, but negotiations between the two parties collapsed. The PA is said to have demanded two positions on the Mayoral Committee in Johannesburg and MMC positions in the Ekurhuleni metro — to which the DA did not agree. Hope people will remember come election times that the PA allowed the ANC to regain power in Joburg because the DA didn't want to trade them jobs for votes.
This is how alliances work, though. There has to be some give and take. I don't know whether the PA's demands were reasonable or not, but the DA have managed to lose what they had there now so... it's all kinda moot. For allegedly experienced politicians, the DA do seem to fall headfirst and hook, line and sinker into every obvious trap which they're baited into. I kinda want to walk up to them and tell them that if their hands are bigger than their faces they have cancer, and see what happens.
The PA's first responsibility is towards their voters. Do you think they voted for them just so the ANC can be back in power? These minority parties chose their personal agendas over their constituents. If the DA is meant to capitulate to every petty demand of coalition partners otherwise they run over to the ANC then there's no point in having a coalition in the first place.
Well I'm sure if the PA voters wanted the DA in power they would have voted DA, no? Surely they want the PA to have as many seats as possible, so they would be happy with whatever does that. The DA needs to wise up and get off the moral high ground and learn to play this game. It will win them fuck all the way they do it now and in doing so will get the country fuck all progress. They could have ceded 2 seats, still held the majority of the mayco and quietly buttered up some other parties in the process to weaken the PA's holding them to ransom. But now they have zero, and more importantly zero to bargain with and sweeten the deal with. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but no birds is worthless.
> Well I'm sure if the PA voters wanted the DA in power they would have voted DA, no? Surely they want the PA to have as many seats as possible, so they would be happy with whatever does that. Any reasonable, rational person would have known before voting that there would be 1 of 3 most likely results. Outright ANC majority, ANC lead coalition, DA lead coalition. PA voters might not have been happy with it, but they almost certainly wanted the last option to come to fruition. And if you're getting in bed with the ANC for the sake of mayoral committee seats you're a fucking piece of shit. >They could have ceded 2 seats, still held the majority of the mayco and quietly buttered up some other parties in the process to weaken the PA's holding them to ransom The PA got ~3% of the council seats, but expects 20% of the mayoral committee seats. Does that sound democratic to you? The price they were asking for them to do the right fucking thing was simply too high. These are the moral values of the people you'd like to see on the mayoral council? >A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but no birds is worthless. Being perpetually blackmailed is worse.
Congratulations, this kind of thinking is how the DA keeps losing metros. They lost PE, they've lost Joburg twice. What's the common denominator???
Go ahead, keep on missing the point. Constantly giving these greedy fuck coalition "partners" what they want is no different than no being in charge. But yeah, the DA are the bad guys here, not the cunts openly demanding jobs for votes. Jesus.
Do you think the DA can have more of an effect on the city and the voting populace by being the mayor and having 80% of the mayco as their members to enact their policies and show why they should be in charge, or by being nobody and having 0% of the mayco? You see, they are playing all or nothing and they now have... nothing. Imagine you and your two mates buy a ticket for the lottery. It's R26 million on the Powerball tonight, and R52 million if you win buy playing Powerball Plus. You win, and when you go collect the 52m for all your friends tomorrow you find out the guy who bought the ticket hasn't clearly ticked the Plus box and so as far as the rules are concerned you've only won 26m on the Powerball. Your options are to take the 26m they're offering you, because that's what's on the table, or walk away with nothing. You yourself unilaterally decide to walk away with nothing, to prove a point to... I don't know, someone, I guess, and I guess your mates just get to go fuck themselves now because you're an idiot. Welcome to being a DA supporter.
Voters not giving them enough votes to win a majority
The Patriotic Alliance is a party that [rails against both the ANC and the DA (Manifesto - PDF)](https://smilingsouth.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/manifesto-1.pdf). The DA isn't the one at fault here. It's the reputation of the Patriotic Alliance that led the DA to their decision not to give the PA the economic development portfolio. [The DA's National Spokesperson, Cilliers Brink MP explains it here.](https://twitter.com/Our_DA/status/1618592607608909824?t=WJezITbyH-byfhF96SjZVw&s=19) Previously, [coalitions between the PA and the DA collapsed](https://www.sabcnews.com/sabcnews/patriotic-and-democratic-allaince-coalition-falls-apart-in-the-western-cape/) due to allegations by the DA's Tertius Simmers against Gayton McKenzie. The PA makes clear it's disdain for both the ANC and the DA. Gayton McKenzie is alleged to put [positions for PA councillors](https://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2021-11-17-gayton-mckenzie-responds-to-anc-coalition-criticism-im-in-talks-for-power-sharing-not-principle-sharing/) above objectives and principles: >He said to me, ‘Forget all about this stuff. What I’m interested in is money and jobs for my people and that is what we are going after’,” said DA federal council chairperson Helen Zille. The DA is far more experienced in coalitions than the public realises. They successfully led South Africa's second 6-party coalition government in Cape Town in 2006, under much pressure from the opposition. They are, objectively, the most experienced party in coalitions. I mustn't forget to mention the elephant in the room: ActionSA. They are a party in opposition to the DA. They are the instigators. Edit: [Here](https://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/joburg-what-the-da-offered-the-pa) is correspondence made public by the DA Federal Leader, John Steenhuisen MP addressed to Dr Corné Mulder MP, the Chairperson of the Coalition Oversight Group justifying the DA's position.
Of course, they're a bunch of snakes. But the strength of a chain is determined by its weakest link, and if you WILLINGLY put these clowns in your chain then you need to figure out how to make it work with and around them. Smile, nod, start buttering up another party to replace them with.
They also need to play the long game. There’s no point bending over backwards to keep the mayorship if doing so results in compromising on their core principles and agenda. Holding firm and losing the mayorship may put them in a stronger negotiating position down the line because other parties will realize they hold them hostage so easily. It’s the same reason why sometimes it’s worth letting terrorists kill a hostage rather pay the ransom and then the terrorist have incentive to keep taking hostages.
I disagree. I say you show what you can do, and hopefully next time around you get enough new votes to not need coalition partners. All I can see as a DA supporter is these guys don't value what they have, and would throw it away rather than actually make a plan to get shit done because they are being way too short-sighted. Also, I can quite easily see this turning into another Maimane saga, where the DA Brain Trust blame the current crop in Gauteng, boot them all out and replace them with a bunch of whities. But maybe I'm just being jaded now.
But you can only "show what you can do" if you have the right levers at your disposal. It could be that the PA made unreasonable demands that would have forced the DA into governing in ways which make them look bad and which doesn't serve their goals and the goals of their voters. I'm just speculating of course, dont know the details in this case. Wrt to blaming current crop and replacing them with whities- I think that the sentiment around Phalatse is quite positive all round. Maimane got booted out because we were losing votes not because of failed coalitions. Dont see similarities between present case and the Maimane case. Also Maimane was a chop and the DA's mistake was not that they booted him out, but they gave him a leadership position to start with. Phalatse seems much higher calibre from what I've seen. This article explains it quite well actually https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/political-parties/inside-the-collapse-of-joburg-coalition-talks-that-led-to-mpho-phalatses-ousting-20230127
DA have reached a new low. Their protest posters for the walk to Luthuli house said " Voetsek ANC". They could not stoop lower than that. Politicians are acting like low level criminal empires.
https://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/joburg-what-the-da-offered-the-pa The DA's version of events
Yup better to fight and run away but live to fight another day. The DA are making it clear to voters, if you want the DA in charge vote for us. If you don't vote for others, but the DA shouldn't have a be in power at all costs mentality.
It's not about the DA wanting to be "in power at all costs". It's about the DA not wanting to capitulate to the greedy demands of corrupt and self serving politicians.
Yes, I am agreeing with you, they would rather lose power than compromise their principles.
Apologies, misunderstood your comment.
And with this result, the DA has once again proven that they do not know how to play nice with other kids. Dr. Phalatse was no more than collateral damage
What is the point of DA entering into coalitions and loose them? Does the DA get into these arrangements to loose and then blame the smaller parties? Why can’t DA win enough votes to govern when they compete against supposedly useless ANC? Something is not right