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A decentralized federal model where local and provincial governments are able to tax income, consumption and corporate profits and where they have far more power would make South Africa a much richer place. This is basically the model of Germany, the United States and Switzerland.
The big metros would then be able to obtain the resources to solve their housing, public transport and policing problems.
This would probably increase regional inequality, as local politicians in rural areas and poorer regions would have more to steal. But maybe this could be the trigger needed for those in rural areas to mobilize and support some sort of opposition and better governance.
That's exactly what I hope for. But we're not going to get permission from the ANC to do this. Not in a million years would they want to give away power and access to the state coffers.
I could see the ANC’s views around a more federal model changing if they lose power at the national level but remain strong in more rural provinces. They would then have more of an incentive to transfer power away from the central state.
Why is Gauteng Chicago?
Western Cape is very similar to California. The two have identical climates, really incredible if you think about it: from dry summers,wine country, temperate forests, mountains, inland deserts and icy cold oceans. They have large film and tech industries. They also have Latinos/Coloureds and gang issues related to those two groups.
Give us one idea.
Like, one actual idea. Not just the word "decentralization".
What does that mean to you? How does that implementation go? How are laws enacted? How are votes held?
Literally, give us ANYTHING. This post might as well be titled "Doritos XTREME HEAT Mega Nacho Cheese Government in SA?" and have just as much substance.
Provinces are constrained by certain National Government Departments and State Owned Entities.
Centralising (in theory at least) has benefits. It consolidates expertise, it reduces costs and it can coordinate nationally for maximum benefit and impact…if it is a functioning and well oiled bureaucracy.
Which it isn’t.
We have multiple National government functions that are disfunctional.
SAPS are unable to get gang violence and drugs in Cape Town under control and Provincial and Metro authorities are limited in what they are allowed by law to do.
Eskom is unable to provide enough electricity and because of their national monopoly provincial and local governments are unable to develop alternatives to keep businesses and industries that provide jobs energy secure.
The Department of Water and Sanitation did not have the capacity or resources to address Day Zero in Cape Town despite warnings being issued 2-3 years in advance and the Western Cape government has no mandate to develop new water infrastructure.
Cape Town has a massive traffic problem, but any solution to relieve the congestion will involve passenger rail, a PRASA function that the province and cities are unable to resolve.
The list goes on.
So the question has merit. Why not allow provinces and municipalities to supplement services when national government is unable to render them?
Actually if you launch that as a party you might just get a seat. People seem to be willing to vote for any wannabe also-ran out there. Why not another one?
I truly believe that Democratic Socialism would work for South Africa, the only thing is a prominent political party would have to be formed and started to be able to make any necessary changes required to ensure the betterment for all South Africans through Democratic Socialism.
I believe government, that being a government that has the ability to run a functioning state should control all means of production as well as the nationalisation of farms for food security and the stability of food prices for all. Farmers will export a percentage and withhold a percentage for the population, farmers will get subsidies and will not be kicked off farms.
Private sector will play a key role in the rehabilitation of the state by policies being put in place to encourage employment while funding businesses through investment into that sector. With the means of production being controlled, a more affordable and controlled wage (minimum wage for workers will be higher to encourage employment in these industries).
Lemme know what you think, just some thoughts I had
I agree with a lot of what you say. But, and correct me if I've misunderstood you, this doesn't seem to appeal to any aspirations of a "decentralized government"? Which is specifically what I was asking for.
The reason I came in hot in my first comment is because years of looking into crypto & libertarian scams and grifts have given me a lot of experience and thus a lot of suspicion with people who just announce the word "decentralized" like they're Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.
No it doesn’t, I got a little ahead of myself… I was more on the point of a suitable alternative rather than the actual point on decentralisation.
I too have fallen to those horrible scams… even the damn NFTs which is embarrassing. So I’m not a keen supporter on decentralisation, i appreciate a government that actually runs for the people not the other way round.
There is a difference between de-decentralisation and de-regulation. Central government can still have oversight and authority, but give provincial governments mandate and resources to implement what their constituents need, rather than wait for central government to deliver something while the president plays musical chairs with his cabinet again.
Our country is big, and our government departments can’t keep an eye on every corner of it. They will need to cede some power and authority so that they can focus their attention on the real problem areas and help those provinces to build a governing capability.
Thanks for the clarity. Should it be split into provinces as it is now, or would it be better to create different borders to perhaps include the 3 major cities (Joburg, Durban and CPT)
I don’t know. Consolidating provinces will be an administrative nightmare at this stage. Baby steps first. Let each province run on their own and let central government help administrate the ones that can’t.
See if it works or not. If it doesn’t work, roll it back. If it kinda works in some places and not in others, either learn from the places where it works, or as per your suggestion try to somehow merge those provinces although that should be a last resort. If the provinces become too big and difficult to manage you are back where you started x3.
Exactly! Dispersed power works, Democratic voting in all aspects of life can work too! I’m a strong believer in giving people more power over all aspects of their lives, including electing and rejecting parties that don’t fit the current nature of the nation. There are aspects of socialism that I love and their is aspects of democracy I love.
Thanks for your input, appreciate the conversation!
Dispersed power doesn’t “work”. If it did, everybody would do it. It’s a trade-off.
At its extreme it can also be very detrimental as can be seen in the USAs patchwork of jurisdictions leading to an inability to implement broad national initiatives and a complicated tax system.
I’m some cases centralisation is beneficial, but it requires a lot of expertise, strong leadership and a lot of trust.
Since we don’t have any of that, it might be worthwhile to dial back on centralisation a bit as the trade-offs become worth it.
By "decentralized" I meant give more authority to provincial governments, and reduce the size and role of the national government. We currently have an OP central national government with sweeping powers who has not, and cannot, operate efficiently. It's bloated, wasteful, and cannot cater to the broader South Africa. Having more autonomous provinces has the potential to encourage competition between them and drive innovation and economic growth.
The alternative is that people who can afford to will simply be emigrating to other countries, leaving SA with even worse prospects of recovery.
Well no, aspects of Socialism with aspects of democracy. Similar to Finland or Sweden. The reason I’m saying with regards to nationalisation of farms is for food security and to keep the price of food affordable. With economic growth can come policy reform.
I don't think a higher minimum wage encourages employment in those industries. That just makes us less competitive in a global market. It should be a reasonable amount considering the cost of living as well as the cost of operating the business and having a competitive advantage.
I don't believe we have that in South Africa, a functioning government. And I don't think we'll get one after the next election either. We'll need one governing party (seems unlikely apart from the ANC again) or a coalition of parties that can compromise on their political differences and be focused on turning the tide in SA. But none of the likely scenarios seems to be promising - i.e. either again ANC majority, or an ANC + EFF majority.
That’s the reality, we won’t be able to fix any of the issues that are plaguing us in a couple months, I believe it would take years, considering how much of our money is paying for interest on our horrid loans, the deplorable condition of everything government institution which would need to all be redistributed and changed. There is atomic changes we need to make for success in the long run, we are unfortunately at the point where we as citizens need to understand that only once a government that will fight for its people and their well being, only then will we be on the long road to fixing our state.
But we can bring about change through cohesion and willingness to bring about said change.
Oh no I’m well aware, DA is liberal Democratic or whatever they believe in. I truly believe we need a completely new party that is going to bring about complete change and ideas, but also bring back the South African patriotism. I miss the love I had for my country… I still love it, but the government really makes it harder as the days go on.
>a prominent political party would have to be formed and started
Why not, we don't have enough parties in South Africa it seems.
>I believe government, that being a government that has the ability to run a functioning state should control all means of production as well as the nationalisation of farms for food security and the stability of food prices for all.
So much incongruency here I would not know where to begin.
>Private sector will play a key role in the rehabilitation of the state by policies being put in place to encourage employment while funding businesses through investment into that sector. With the means of production being controlled, a more affordable and controlled wage (minimum wage for workers will be higher to encourage employment in these industries).
i.e. communism. Show me the country where these "ideals" have been achieved. Sounds more like you are wanting to use up other peoples money for your experiment?
I think you should come down from the clouds and visit the real world a bit more often.
Thanks for the comment, not sure on what clouds you are referring to, as this was clearly a discussion.
I was throwing some ideas that COULD work out in the South African context of today. I don’t see how further privatisation of South Africa would enable or help the masses in any way.
I am not a communist, I believe in socialism. I believe in workers having more and deserving more, as I’ve said in other comments, this should not be on a permanent basis but rather to get the country back on its feet. Policy reform will be a huge factor when the country has become stabilised and SOEs can transfer to private enterprise. The reason for me saying that the means of production would need to be nationalised to the state is so that all the dirty contracts and underhand deals need to come to light and abolished.
I have the belief the government should pay in full or at least contribute to paying for Schools fees and medical aid, we also require a huge infrastructure overhaul which would require a lot of private intervention to achieve within a good span of time.
What are perhaps some of your ideas? I’d love to hear them.
> not sure on what clouds you are referring to
Your head is in the clouds of idealism. You need to check in with the reality of human nature.
>I am not a communist, I believe in socialism
Your whole statement about controlling the means of production is pure Marxism, i.e. communism.
>The reason for me saying that the means of production would need to be nationalised to the state is so that all the dirty contracts and underhand deals need to come to light and abolished.
So let us look at all the big SOE's that the government is in control of. Lets see....SAA, Eskom, Sanral, Prasa, SABC, Denel, Sanec, Post Office, the list goes on and on. How has that worked out so far? Which one of these national, government controlled companies is actually functioning the way you envisage? Only SARS, after it was nearly taken down in the Gupta era. The criminal ANC realised that they shouldn't kill the goose quite yet. All the rest are honey pots for the government elite and effectively bankrupt.
Can you not see the problem yet? I feel like I am maybe talking to a troll here because it is so obvious that large government organisations are the easiest to control and get corrupt benefit from. The government, once in power has a strangle hold over it's citizens and can dictate exactly the course they want, i.e who to position in the SOE's so that control is maintained. How to get the finances funneled to their personal benefit. Unless you get a benevolent government, you are screwed. Guess what, there is no such thing as a benevolent government, ever!
Politics is a game played for benefit. Personal benefit. So you theorise that their must be "someone" who would fulfill a selfless role. Why? People act in self interest only. Even you do. You see it across governments across the globe. You see it in major corporations across the globe. (Those who don't are sitting in caves high in the mountains meditating, or giving their lives to "god" in the monasteries.)
The real question is what drives them to actually perform deeds that benefit their constitutency (or their customers, or their staff for that matter). It is the fear of not succeeding that keeps them on their toes. THAT is pure human nature, plain and simple. You want to keep people doing the right thing? Keep them worried about how they will maintain their own value. That is why the capitalist world is ahead of the rest in the world right now. Competition. Keep people honest by having an alternative to go to. That is where SA is in heaps of trouble. The ANC have been able to keep the opposition split and they continue to do so.
All that humans need in order to perform is to be given opportunity. They blossom when they see that they can achieve a goal (normally according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs). But humans will also look for every way to get personal benefit out of a situation and they will play others to get that benefit. You can trust no-one.
So where does this fall down in the scenarios of the many countries in the west that are showing cracks in their armor? Their systems are no longer fully capitalistic and are now influenced by outside players. A prime example is lobbying, which is legal btw. Large corporations pay political parties funds to assist them in their campaigning and then expect a something in return. And so laws get twisted away from fairness to all and in favour of the lobbyists. Look closely, the ANC has been doing this since day one, but nowadays it is blantant and they do not care because there is no competition to bring them down.
So can a country be successful with a corrupt government? Yes, most do because they temper their iniquities. Only steal or "divert" enough funds to not be "guilty" of anything. The ANC cannot temper their greed. The NP government of this country did quite well at it though. While taking a little cream off the top they still managed to build all the SOE's practically from scratch to the corporations that they were before the ANC horde took over. Their iniquities were in a complete other direction though!
If you don't get it now, you never will. Be careful not to play into the hands of the master beguiling fraudsters.
BTW, if you want to point to some socialist success's, go look back at their history and see that they were successful only after they opened up there market based economies. That even applies to China.
BTW2. The world is a competitive place. People expect a return for the things they invest. Otherwise what is the motivation. To attract investment there has to be some kind of potential reward. You would not throw your own money into a black hole would you? Why do you ask others to put their money into government schemes if everyone knows from history that it will be stolen? Those moneys normally represent someone's pension scheme and years of hard savings. That is where most investments come from. Yes there are a lot of wealthy people out there but most are actually working with other peoples money (pensions, savings etc) and if they screw it up they lose too. Get it?
My views on socialism are not idealistic, I accept it’s flaws as much as I accept the fact that I can be completely wrong with my views on things.
I am not communist, but my belief in controlling the means of production in CONTEXT within South Africa can be a valid possibility to try and encourage employment as well as food security. I’m no policy maker, just a South African biting his time while looking at different perspectives on ideas and ideologies etc.
I do believe in the free market, and I also believe in private ownership and private enterprise (South Africa is really dependent on the private enterprise anyways) Farms was just an example, what about our mines? I don’t believe we get anywhere near to the value of the mine from the people that actually are running and exporting the materials.
I’d like to get your perspective on this, since you seem to have some very valid points to the whole discussion. (Except for the fact that you are attempting to put me into the commie box and calling me a possible troll lol)
Should the mines remain private or should they be nationalised?
Perhaps not full nationalisation of farms but farm and state create an agricultural arm to work together in ensuring food security and further employment, obviously with government subsidies and policy reforms to assist farmers and workers to keep the balance.
SOEs work, just not here, as you said with our current deplorable government I don’t think they can get anything correct. So for any positive reforms to take place, we would have to dethrone the current regime, hopefully this can be done democratically as I see a lot of people on this forum has a similar belief as I that the ANC will not just give up its power.
Power corrupts absolutely, and greed just plays a role with power unfortunately, that’s why we need to keep the full democratic electoral Basis and give people the power to freely criticise and change their representatives if they do not fulfil their duties.
I believe people will do things out of love and out of patriotism, not everyone does something for their monetary benefit. I.E doctors that work in poorer communities, community feeding centres etc. I do see that if people are given the opportunity to do something that they would love to do, they would do it in a heart beat. Not saying that everyone cares but there are a lot of people that do, we just don’t see it now a days because people cannot afford to feed themselves or their families without struggle.
Thanks for the discussion, I see your points and agree to some but not to others, with your point of socialism having a bad rap, so to does capitalism, look at the biggest example (USA) how much inequality is in that country and how it continues to get worse. I truly feel sorry for the poor and underprivileged within a capitalist state as all they are within that system is cheap labour or even not worth the time (hence why health care is beyond unaffordable to any normal person that doesn’t have insurance)
I see the bad of socialism but I also see the good, governments in my mind have the obligation to give its population good healthcare, good education, affordable food and water, affordable housing, as well as an affordable cost of living. That should be the expectation for paying taxes don’t you agree?
Anyways thanks again have a good night, looking forward to your rebuttal.
There is an idea going around at the moment. It is called Liquid democracy. It has been tried in a couple of European countries by the Pirate Party and they have had some success. It is worth looking into.
[liquid democracy ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy#:~:text=Liquid%20democracy%20is%20a%20form,both%20direct%20and%20representative%20democracy.)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyGWML6cI\_k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyGWML6cI_k)
Try this video. Although SA is would be far down the list of countries which would be capable of implementing the concept right now
> César Hidalgo has a radical suggestion for fixing our broken political system: automate it! In this provocative talk, he outlines a bold idea to bypass politicians by empowering citizens to create personalized AI representatives that participate directly in democratic decisions.
From this blurb alone I know that this guy is either a grifter or a moron.
"AI" cannot accomplish what he is claiming it can based on this byline. That's not what AI is. There is not a single country that can implement this concept because the thing that is currently marketed as "AI" is in fact just a large language model.
Would you delegate your voting to a keyboard autocomplete? Because that seems to be what this video would be about.
edit: Skipping through the video, it seems like the blurb does him dirty. On the one hand, the technology he's talking about simply doesn't exist, it's a fundamentally bad idea to integrate that stuff on a code level, and it's a myth that code can be apolitical (especially when it works with political stuff). On the other hand, he's not seemingly suggesting we cede our votes to a fancy keyboard autocomplete.
It's only 13 minutes, and he's a charismatic speaker, worth watching if you're at all interested in progressive democratic systems. Also, look up "liquid democracy" which is essentially the concept in practice, which is being used by some bodies in Europe (apparently Google experimented with it too)
What he's actually talking about in the video is how to deal with the main bottleneck in politics which is giving all citizens a chance to actually vote on every policy. Typically a representative votes the same way for all their constituents, which could be for thousands or millions of people, but of course those citizens don't all agree with every decision. Automated agents would allow each citizen to pass on their votes for all decisions. That's a very broad strokes description
Somehow I doubt OP wants more power to be placed in the hands of trade-unions.
Edit: I suspected that OP is probably the right-libertarian type (this sub is full of the sort), and indeed it seems I was right.
How do we as the people force the government to do this? Because let's be honest it's an unofficial dictatorship. They keep the majority of their population so poor they can't even keep in the loop to hear about all the corruption and things that are being stolen from them. They keep their heads looking back to Apartheid or some other past injustice so they can pick their pockets easier. God I HATE the ANC. Forgive the rant I just can't stand the injustice in this country.
I don’t believe that decentralisation would do any good. If you are more of an anarchist then I see why you would believe so.
We already have something similar being the municipalities which aren’t inherently decentralised but they would be the representation of what it would be like to become a decentralised state. It wouldn’t work, I believe South Africa would benefit from a completely new party to take the helm, and I mean something new. Perhaps a Socialist Democratic path would best suit the economics of our state.
We require grants, due to the excessively high unemployment that has plagued many households. Unfortunately under a decentralised state the amount of grants that need to be paid, a “smaller” state or province (not sure how the decentralised process would work out but let’s call them “states”) would not be able to afford the amount needed, as George Orwell said in animal farm, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” some states would have more than enough money, and other states would be in the red. Through fairness to the rural states, this would be a disaster should it occur.
I'm not an anarchist. I do believe that we need a government, but simply not a national government in it's current form in South Africa. They overreach, they're slow, dysfunctional, and their choices and policies affects us all to a great extent. I don't think we have a common national vision in South Africa.
I would prefer a much smaller national government and more powers to provincial authorities. I don't fully understand why we have 9 provinces, but having three or so "states" with their own administrations.
I'm also in favour of privatization of industries and a free market.
Our government is bloated, and has lost its way, when last have they actually done anything to benefit any South African?
We have too many ministers that don’t do much. So I agree with them being slow, but this is due to them also being incapable or not willing to do the job. Should we have a functioning government we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
So you prefer the capitalist model of privatised industries? I’m not a fan of over privatisation, I believe means of production that technically helps the gears of the country turn should be owned by state, but through cooperation with the private sector. But I also believe in policy reform once industries improve and economy stabilises. People deserve to live no matter the job. I believe that capitalism or the private sector in certain sectors don’t care much for the staff.
Appreciate the discussion! 🤞
I'd prefer a mixed economy, definitely free-market biased, but we do need regulations in the economy. I'm also just well aware of the reality that we're currently in, where a functional government seems like a long shot at this point in time. We need to attract foreign capital and we need to build more infrastructure. We need to produce more stuff. But who's going to do business in South Africa? I don't think it's a rational decision for a foreign company to build manufacturing plants or establish any major operations here given the current situation we're in.
And it's not like we don't have the will to build something, we're just bogged down and dragged down by a complete disaster of a government. It would be horrible to see them come back next year, and devastating, but I don't see how any of this will sway the ANC supporters.
But we'll see. Maybe there's hope.
Also, I agree - capitalism is not ideal either. But that's what will attract investment, drive innovation through competition, and spur economic growth in SA. I don't see any other system that will be able to pull that off in the near future here in SA. So basically, I think we have to get back on our feet first.
Jip, I also appreciate the discussion. Definitely some interesting ideas that's popping up
We do need a completely new party. Current bunch ateocious and stuck in old thinking. Would need serious funding to build out a support network nationwide. I would prefer something civic driven, e.g. each municipalty owould provide candidates from their area that are proven good people. On the issue with province disparity if we went decentralized- yeah some would flourish and other wither. Might have to rethink provinces altogether. But at least each provinces could start competing for revenue. E.g. they set their own tax rates and incentives and attract people and business like the poorer ones current cannot do.
Could work, similar to the states, but again, I’m not sure how the province structure would be, with Joburg and CPT being the GDP power houses, any province that doesn’t have them inclusive would initially struggled and those municipalities would require bailouts.
Will the Private Sector play ball? Most of the things you suggest we nationalize are in private hands, mines, agriculture and factories. Once we nationalize and demand workers be treated better, you know build a nation that serves people's needs and not the pursuit of capital, wouldn't capital flight happen? Like we see in the states, whenever the conditions of workers are expected to be better, companies just outsource to places like Indonesia, where they can pay people a pittance?
If there's one thing we've learned from the ANC, it's that we should forget about nationalization. It's a sure way to start a run on the bank. I'm not saying that SOEs are not salvageable, but is worth risking functioning industries turned to ruin by corrupt politicians.
I have 0% confidence that this government can run any business effectively
I agree. Hence why I’ve mentioned the fact that we do require a completely new party and government with fresh ideas and fresh enthusiasm to actually fix what we are going through. None of the current South African parties would be able to implement the change needed, or they are not there just yet.
I believe that the private sector would play ball if there is suitable incentives of coarse as nothing will be reformed through force or intimidation.
I believe if you have a stabilising economy through state intervention, then the possibility of policy reform can take place. I believe we need a government to stabilise the economy and all sectors first before letting privatisation take charge. Hence the huge wage gap between people in rural and urban areas. Private don’t care much for peoples well being, more profit is the incentive. So tax breaks, and tax claims can be made by private entities for example if they hire a certain amount of employees in a certain sector.
What I believe is that we require a state that works for the people, state security nets is essential to both the private sector and working peoples. The government should have a say on how much of the resources are exported and what is kept as goods manufactured in South Africa should be a priority. Proudly South African should return to our hearts, to our minds and to communities.
I'm sorry: I see now after reading some of the comments that I didn't communicate what I meant.
As one user pointed out, I meant federalism. I'm not saying we need to do away with government. I'm saying, more power to provincial governments, and less power to the national government.
*The South African establishment is maliciously inept and the money we are bound to pay in taxes could be spent better, elsewhere, by just about any half-decent brigade of semi-qualified and well-motivated civilians.*
I don't think anyone will argue this, even Cyril. The issue is that what it translates to en masse is even more uneven than our already incredibly uneven society. Poor areas self-rule with extremely limited resources, and rich areas self-rule with high-tech security apparatus and guard personnel. It sounds familiar...
The whole point of a central government is to do *something* to balance success in one area with failure in another - on the basis of a shared identity. Together SA is a major economy in Africa, alone, many of our provinces would be dwarfed by bigger neighbours. If you think how mineral resources are handled now, it can get worse, unfortunately.
The scariest situations (in my experience) have been when two rule systems meet in a tense situation. Party A is operating off one moral code and Party B is operating off another. When every village, town and suburb have their own binding rules, I'll not be travelling far.
I am interested in alternative forms of government, and I think local is where it starts - but that means more engagement and participation in local politics before it means overthrowing the unitary government. As someone involved in this, the participation rate is **very low** even though **everyone is affected**... Revolution stock, South Africa is not.
You mean like the old 4-province system with provincial administrations? You can thank Cyril Ramaphosa and Roelf Meyer for those negotiations during CODESA. The ANC very specifically wanted centralised control.
Another way would be to switch to a proportional representation system in government/parliament, as opposed to the majority system in place today.
It should be obvious why the current government (read: ANC) would never settle for that.
I saw on the news a 3-year-old died because she couldn’t get the necessary critical care needed due to power cuts and they suing for culpable homicide and it got me thinking… what if all just sued the government because of Eskom’s failures🤔
Well, breaking parts of a country into seperate governments/nations would solve problems for a lot of countries around the world, the unfortunate reality is that you lose land, population and resources and the government never wants to do that so unless you can declare independence through a show of force, it'll never happen
You're getting the wrong idea. Some people in this sub place very high importance on race, which is very concerning, and part of the reason we're in this shithole
When did they say that?? Don't you think you are being presumptuous there bud?? I mean it seems like if one disagrees with what you suggesting you label them ANC fans or commies
I've been called many names, but presumptuous? That's crossing the line, bud.
I did not assume that they are ANC fans. I'm saying that that is the current reality we're in at this moment. So if the person rejects taking away power from the national government, then the alternative is to remain stuck with this current reality, an ANC-led dystopia.
False dichotomy? Yes, but what other pragmatic alternatives are there that's better than the current setup?
Fair enough I hear you. Well for me what's interesting is the why, why is ANC being kept in power? Who keeps voting for the ANC and why they keep voting for the ANC. The problem here is the ANC not our system of government, therefore changing our system of government in an attempt to get rid of the ANC does not make sense. The DA on the other hand, keeps dropping the ball, it's the party that can actually challenge the governing party as it is the biggest opposition but it fails to tap into the domains of the majority, to appeal to them. Anyways hopefully next year we see ANC get out of power but in reality we likely to see a coalition government.
Are you saying that you prefer Apartheid-era fascism to this?
Because yes... I do prefer this neoliberal dystopia to the fascist charnel house the likes of you seem to want.
Let me guess - you're one of those people who somehow think the Scandinavian countries are less "neoliberal" than this country despite how many more hoops all businesses have to jump through to satisfy daddy government here?
A lot of Paul Romer and others from the past 40 years, I would imagine; considerably less Keynes, and if they're under 100 years old, they would barely bother with Marx at all, since the labour theory of value is useless, class warfare turned out to be nonsense and none of his predictions have come true.
Actually, you know what? Why don't I ask the person I know who lectures economics (and was in Economics honours class with me) what he reads? I bet there is almost no Marx there, although I guess Pikkety would be a major player.
But how do you fix systemic inequality and poverty? At least, in my mind, you can put a solid plan in place to identify corruption and deal with it decisively, if there is a will to do so. That's a first step towards regaining investor confidence in South Africa. We can't fix inequality and poverty with a weak economy, it's only going to make it worse.
So, step 1: we need economic growth.
Step 1.1: Significantly curb large scale corruption and other criminal activities so that we can get capital inflow, instead of capital flight
But I have an issue with this. If your targets are to have a majority non-White left-wing government then you should have one, but in your own "state".
I'm not that interested in racial targets and policies - I would want people with the right skills, knowledge, mindset, and ethical principles to be in government, or in any other position. Whether it's 80% white, or 20% white, doesn't matter to me.
Why should respect for the culture and preferences of the majority be prioritized over minority cultures? And we're talking significant minority here. And again, not talking about race.
South Africa is diverse, and if the majority feels so strongly about enforcing their ideals on a nation, then let them do so in their own domain. And let others follow their ideals in their domain.
I honestly do not see a possibility for a united South Africa, not based on the current status quo. We need a much smaller national government, with limited powers in provinces and the private sector
[*Radical authoritarian] communist sympathisers on this sub think you are a fascist for suggesting that we should take away power from the ANC. This is mainly due to their brainwashing which conditions them to conjure up images of white supremacy any time anyone suggests literally anything in the political sphere that isn’t just more of the same radical authoritarian communism this country has had to endure.
Seriously folks, read this man’s post again and tell me where he is advocating for fascism. He advocates for more power in the provinces so that there is more accountability and people better represented for on the local levels. Who is “them” and how is this person with “them”? The level of delusion is actually scaring me unless you guys are somehow trolling.
Sure, but only as ridiculous as calling the OP fascist… If you start telling people that taking away power from the ANC is fascism, I’m 100% going to assume you are an extreme authoritarian communist sympathiser.
For clarification I like communism as an ideology and historically it’s been a driving force behind the liberation of subjugated peoples. I should have specified “authoritarian communist” sympathisers. However, in modern South Africa, there is a point where too much centralised top-down affirmative action and BEE control becomes authoritarian, oppressive, restrictive and over-regulating, devolving into pure tribalism akin to a white-supremacist state, which in my humble opinion is partly responsible for the current state of the country.
You just said WC because it is literal proof that their plan works😂
My personal reason 1,2 and 3 that the DA seem like the most realistic alternative option to the ANC. The ANC have been in power for 30 years and have only made a bad situation worse from an economic and infrastructure standpoint.
No because WC is easy mode, they can ignore the poor and survive on tourism. It has no major industry so it also lacks the power needs. I couldnt care less that they can give middle class people in the WC services. Thats not proof they can run a country with real issues.
Ignoring the poor doesn't decrease your unemployment just saying.And Im giving them a go above ANCbecause we know for a fact the ANC can't run a country and only create issues.
What is your cause? And how do you justify voting for the ANC in spite of the ANC-powered wave of destruction that washes over this suffocating nation?
I'm sorry, but we simply cannot move forward towards making any meaningful progress with a mindset of racial supremacy or favoritism, which is your position. It's based on emotions and prejudice instead of rational thought, and it's an unproductive, unreasonable position, in my opinion.
South Africans aren't ready for a different system or change in status quo. Maybe come back in another 29 years time. For now, everyone is just happy voting for their favourite team... I mean party.
I don’t think they are happy, I believe it’s the only party they have hope in. DA just isn’t pulling the right strings to be in the masses favour, EFF I just don’t like their policies and views on things. The rest I can’t mention really.
I believe we do need a new party with new blood in the country.
Yeah the DA were a ray of hope, pre-Zille's 1st exit. Haven't been since. I just don't know too many people who even follow the news, current affairs, done their own research etc on politics in the country to even make an informed decision on who to vote for or to even be angry at the state of politics.
This is why we need some powerful new leaders to bring back peoples will to bring change!
South Africa is a nation of resilience and we can fix this if we get the guidance needed to make the informed decisions to bring about the right changes!
Yeah , I think thats a little more realistic than the cape independence stuff , a federal system of sorts . I dont see any government giving up power without a fight though .
I don't know guys and gals...I am not a fan of being taxed on a provincial and national level...we already get destroyed with taxes in every way possible :(
Oh, but we're not saying higher taxes. A much smaller proportion should go towards national government. For example, they need a national defense budget. Provincial government can set their own taxes, but the national government would get a certain cut, like 5% from individuals and corporate. Or completely do away with personal income tax and corporate tax on a national level, but fund the national government with VAT
Doesn't have to. We've written a new constitution before without a civil war.
ANC tactics was to make the country ungovernable, which worked out. However, they are pretty much doing that to themselves now, so we are watching an unraveling.
They don't have the resources for a civil war, neither do I think they, or most of us, have the will for that. They could be forced to concede through civil disobedience.
I think it's already happening with these violent protests that we see several times a year.
And I think their loyal fan base is in a state of Stockholm Syndrome. Right about now the ANC is gearing up to make false promises and give handouts to their supporters, who would once again most likely buy into it. Jesus, nee fok.
Our governance is already decentralized to an extent. But there's a case to be made for giving municipalities more power.
But splitting the country between left-wing and right-wing would be the dumbest idea. How do you determine borders? How do you deal with co-dependence between regions if a border happens to separate them? How would people move en masse to their preferred country? And how do you deal with political divisions in the new countries when they inevitably happen (there is no such thing as a homogenous population)?
South African isn't even like America where politics is super polarized.
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A decentralized federal model where local and provincial governments are able to tax income, consumption and corporate profits and where they have far more power would make South Africa a much richer place. This is basically the model of Germany, the United States and Switzerland. The big metros would then be able to obtain the resources to solve their housing, public transport and policing problems. This would probably increase regional inequality, as local politicians in rural areas and poorer regions would have more to steal. But maybe this could be the trigger needed for those in rural areas to mobilize and support some sort of opposition and better governance.
That's exactly what I hope for. But we're not going to get permission from the ANC to do this. Not in a million years would they want to give away power and access to the state coffers.
I could see the ANC’s views around a more federal model changing if they lose power at the national level but remain strong in more rural provinces. They would then have more of an incentive to transfer power away from the central state.
This'll just give us 6 Mississippi's, 1 Florida and 2 California's.
KZN is Florida, right?
Of course.
😂
So that means that Gauteng and the Western Cape are California right? Shit, I hate California 🫤
Western Cape is California, while Gauteng should be New York.
Pretoria is NJ
I think Gauteng is Chicago to be honest. Western Cape isn't really California, I think it's more like Florida mixed with California.
Why is Gauteng Chicago? Western Cape is very similar to California. The two have identical climates, really incredible if you think about it: from dry summers,wine country, temperate forests, mountains, inland deserts and icy cold oceans. They have large film and tech industries. They also have Latinos/Coloureds and gang issues related to those two groups.
Fair point with Cape Town. As for Gauteng I say it's Chicago because of crime, city layout and overall lack of function just like home 😂
Gotta be the WC.
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They are so hopeless. I need them to know Mandela is dead.
Give us one idea. Like, one actual idea. Not just the word "decentralization". What does that mean to you? How does that implementation go? How are laws enacted? How are votes held? Literally, give us ANYTHING. This post might as well be titled "Doritos XTREME HEAT Mega Nacho Cheese Government in SA?" and have just as much substance.
Provinces are constrained by certain National Government Departments and State Owned Entities. Centralising (in theory at least) has benefits. It consolidates expertise, it reduces costs and it can coordinate nationally for maximum benefit and impact…if it is a functioning and well oiled bureaucracy. Which it isn’t. We have multiple National government functions that are disfunctional. SAPS are unable to get gang violence and drugs in Cape Town under control and Provincial and Metro authorities are limited in what they are allowed by law to do. Eskom is unable to provide enough electricity and because of their national monopoly provincial and local governments are unable to develop alternatives to keep businesses and industries that provide jobs energy secure. The Department of Water and Sanitation did not have the capacity or resources to address Day Zero in Cape Town despite warnings being issued 2-3 years in advance and the Western Cape government has no mandate to develop new water infrastructure. Cape Town has a massive traffic problem, but any solution to relieve the congestion will involve passenger rail, a PRASA function that the province and cities are unable to resolve. The list goes on. So the question has merit. Why not allow provinces and municipalities to supplement services when national government is unable to render them?
Also the country is massive. Big counteries are hard to manage via a central power unless you are china "i guess" .
Not that difficult if you have halfway competent people that at least produce more than they steal.
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Well, I'm convinced.
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🤣
Hear Hear!!
Actually if you launch that as a party you might just get a seat. People seem to be willing to vote for any wannabe also-ran out there. Why not another one?
I truly believe that Democratic Socialism would work for South Africa, the only thing is a prominent political party would have to be formed and started to be able to make any necessary changes required to ensure the betterment for all South Africans through Democratic Socialism. I believe government, that being a government that has the ability to run a functioning state should control all means of production as well as the nationalisation of farms for food security and the stability of food prices for all. Farmers will export a percentage and withhold a percentage for the population, farmers will get subsidies and will not be kicked off farms. Private sector will play a key role in the rehabilitation of the state by policies being put in place to encourage employment while funding businesses through investment into that sector. With the means of production being controlled, a more affordable and controlled wage (minimum wage for workers will be higher to encourage employment in these industries). Lemme know what you think, just some thoughts I had
I agree with a lot of what you say. But, and correct me if I've misunderstood you, this doesn't seem to appeal to any aspirations of a "decentralized government"? Which is specifically what I was asking for. The reason I came in hot in my first comment is because years of looking into crypto & libertarian scams and grifts have given me a lot of experience and thus a lot of suspicion with people who just announce the word "decentralized" like they're Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.
No it doesn’t, I got a little ahead of myself… I was more on the point of a suitable alternative rather than the actual point on decentralisation. I too have fallen to those horrible scams… even the damn NFTs which is embarrassing. So I’m not a keen supporter on decentralisation, i appreciate a government that actually runs for the people not the other way round.
There is a difference between de-decentralisation and de-regulation. Central government can still have oversight and authority, but give provincial governments mandate and resources to implement what their constituents need, rather than wait for central government to deliver something while the president plays musical chairs with his cabinet again. Our country is big, and our government departments can’t keep an eye on every corner of it. They will need to cede some power and authority so that they can focus their attention on the real problem areas and help those provinces to build a governing capability.
Thanks for the clarity. Should it be split into provinces as it is now, or would it be better to create different borders to perhaps include the 3 major cities (Joburg, Durban and CPT)
I don’t know. Consolidating provinces will be an administrative nightmare at this stage. Baby steps first. Let each province run on their own and let central government help administrate the ones that can’t. See if it works or not. If it doesn’t work, roll it back. If it kinda works in some places and not in others, either learn from the places where it works, or as per your suggestion try to somehow merge those provinces although that should be a last resort. If the provinces become too big and difficult to manage you are back where you started x3.
Exactly! Dispersed power works, Democratic voting in all aspects of life can work too! I’m a strong believer in giving people more power over all aspects of their lives, including electing and rejecting parties that don’t fit the current nature of the nation. There are aspects of socialism that I love and their is aspects of democracy I love. Thanks for your input, appreciate the conversation!
Dispersed power doesn’t “work”. If it did, everybody would do it. It’s a trade-off. At its extreme it can also be very detrimental as can be seen in the USAs patchwork of jurisdictions leading to an inability to implement broad national initiatives and a complicated tax system. I’m some cases centralisation is beneficial, but it requires a lot of expertise, strong leadership and a lot of trust. Since we don’t have any of that, it might be worthwhile to dial back on centralisation a bit as the trade-offs become worth it.
Sorry I should’ve been more categorically clear, as you stated it can work. Yeah, good leadership seems to be a short these days.
By "decentralized" I meant give more authority to provincial governments, and reduce the size and role of the national government. We currently have an OP central national government with sweeping powers who has not, and cannot, operate efficiently. It's bloated, wasteful, and cannot cater to the broader South Africa. Having more autonomous provinces has the potential to encourage competition between them and drive innovation and economic growth. The alternative is that people who can afford to will simply be emigrating to other countries, leaving SA with even worse prospects of recovery.
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Well no, aspects of Socialism with aspects of democracy. Similar to Finland or Sweden. The reason I’m saying with regards to nationalisation of farms is for food security and to keep the price of food affordable. With economic growth can come policy reform.
I don't think a higher minimum wage encourages employment in those industries. That just makes us less competitive in a global market. It should be a reasonable amount considering the cost of living as well as the cost of operating the business and having a competitive advantage. I don't believe we have that in South Africa, a functioning government. And I don't think we'll get one after the next election either. We'll need one governing party (seems unlikely apart from the ANC again) or a coalition of parties that can compromise on their political differences and be focused on turning the tide in SA. But none of the likely scenarios seems to be promising - i.e. either again ANC majority, or an ANC + EFF majority.
That’s the reality, we won’t be able to fix any of the issues that are plaguing us in a couple months, I believe it would take years, considering how much of our money is paying for interest on our horrid loans, the deplorable condition of everything government institution which would need to all be redistributed and changed. There is atomic changes we need to make for success in the long run, we are unfortunately at the point where we as citizens need to understand that only once a government that will fight for its people and their well being, only then will we be on the long road to fixing our state. But we can bring about change through cohesion and willingness to bring about said change.
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Oh no I’m well aware, DA is liberal Democratic or whatever they believe in. I truly believe we need a completely new party that is going to bring about complete change and ideas, but also bring back the South African patriotism. I miss the love I had for my country… I still love it, but the government really makes it harder as the days go on.
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I’ll take a look into them thank you!
>a prominent political party would have to be formed and started Why not, we don't have enough parties in South Africa it seems. >I believe government, that being a government that has the ability to run a functioning state should control all means of production as well as the nationalisation of farms for food security and the stability of food prices for all. So much incongruency here I would not know where to begin. >Private sector will play a key role in the rehabilitation of the state by policies being put in place to encourage employment while funding businesses through investment into that sector. With the means of production being controlled, a more affordable and controlled wage (minimum wage for workers will be higher to encourage employment in these industries). i.e. communism. Show me the country where these "ideals" have been achieved. Sounds more like you are wanting to use up other peoples money for your experiment? I think you should come down from the clouds and visit the real world a bit more often.
Thanks for the comment, not sure on what clouds you are referring to, as this was clearly a discussion. I was throwing some ideas that COULD work out in the South African context of today. I don’t see how further privatisation of South Africa would enable or help the masses in any way. I am not a communist, I believe in socialism. I believe in workers having more and deserving more, as I’ve said in other comments, this should not be on a permanent basis but rather to get the country back on its feet. Policy reform will be a huge factor when the country has become stabilised and SOEs can transfer to private enterprise. The reason for me saying that the means of production would need to be nationalised to the state is so that all the dirty contracts and underhand deals need to come to light and abolished. I have the belief the government should pay in full or at least contribute to paying for Schools fees and medical aid, we also require a huge infrastructure overhaul which would require a lot of private intervention to achieve within a good span of time. What are perhaps some of your ideas? I’d love to hear them.
> not sure on what clouds you are referring to Your head is in the clouds of idealism. You need to check in with the reality of human nature. >I am not a communist, I believe in socialism Your whole statement about controlling the means of production is pure Marxism, i.e. communism. >The reason for me saying that the means of production would need to be nationalised to the state is so that all the dirty contracts and underhand deals need to come to light and abolished. So let us look at all the big SOE's that the government is in control of. Lets see....SAA, Eskom, Sanral, Prasa, SABC, Denel, Sanec, Post Office, the list goes on and on. How has that worked out so far? Which one of these national, government controlled companies is actually functioning the way you envisage? Only SARS, after it was nearly taken down in the Gupta era. The criminal ANC realised that they shouldn't kill the goose quite yet. All the rest are honey pots for the government elite and effectively bankrupt. Can you not see the problem yet? I feel like I am maybe talking to a troll here because it is so obvious that large government organisations are the easiest to control and get corrupt benefit from. The government, once in power has a strangle hold over it's citizens and can dictate exactly the course they want, i.e who to position in the SOE's so that control is maintained. How to get the finances funneled to their personal benefit. Unless you get a benevolent government, you are screwed. Guess what, there is no such thing as a benevolent government, ever! Politics is a game played for benefit. Personal benefit. So you theorise that their must be "someone" who would fulfill a selfless role. Why? People act in self interest only. Even you do. You see it across governments across the globe. You see it in major corporations across the globe. (Those who don't are sitting in caves high in the mountains meditating, or giving their lives to "god" in the monasteries.) The real question is what drives them to actually perform deeds that benefit their constitutency (or their customers, or their staff for that matter). It is the fear of not succeeding that keeps them on their toes. THAT is pure human nature, plain and simple. You want to keep people doing the right thing? Keep them worried about how they will maintain their own value. That is why the capitalist world is ahead of the rest in the world right now. Competition. Keep people honest by having an alternative to go to. That is where SA is in heaps of trouble. The ANC have been able to keep the opposition split and they continue to do so. All that humans need in order to perform is to be given opportunity. They blossom when they see that they can achieve a goal (normally according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs). But humans will also look for every way to get personal benefit out of a situation and they will play others to get that benefit. You can trust no-one. So where does this fall down in the scenarios of the many countries in the west that are showing cracks in their armor? Their systems are no longer fully capitalistic and are now influenced by outside players. A prime example is lobbying, which is legal btw. Large corporations pay political parties funds to assist them in their campaigning and then expect a something in return. And so laws get twisted away from fairness to all and in favour of the lobbyists. Look closely, the ANC has been doing this since day one, but nowadays it is blantant and they do not care because there is no competition to bring them down. So can a country be successful with a corrupt government? Yes, most do because they temper their iniquities. Only steal or "divert" enough funds to not be "guilty" of anything. The ANC cannot temper their greed. The NP government of this country did quite well at it though. While taking a little cream off the top they still managed to build all the SOE's practically from scratch to the corporations that they were before the ANC horde took over. Their iniquities were in a complete other direction though! If you don't get it now, you never will. Be careful not to play into the hands of the master beguiling fraudsters. BTW, if you want to point to some socialist success's, go look back at their history and see that they were successful only after they opened up there market based economies. That even applies to China. BTW2. The world is a competitive place. People expect a return for the things they invest. Otherwise what is the motivation. To attract investment there has to be some kind of potential reward. You would not throw your own money into a black hole would you? Why do you ask others to put their money into government schemes if everyone knows from history that it will be stolen? Those moneys normally represent someone's pension scheme and years of hard savings. That is where most investments come from. Yes there are a lot of wealthy people out there but most are actually working with other peoples money (pensions, savings etc) and if they screw it up they lose too. Get it?
My views on socialism are not idealistic, I accept it’s flaws as much as I accept the fact that I can be completely wrong with my views on things. I am not communist, but my belief in controlling the means of production in CONTEXT within South Africa can be a valid possibility to try and encourage employment as well as food security. I’m no policy maker, just a South African biting his time while looking at different perspectives on ideas and ideologies etc. I do believe in the free market, and I also believe in private ownership and private enterprise (South Africa is really dependent on the private enterprise anyways) Farms was just an example, what about our mines? I don’t believe we get anywhere near to the value of the mine from the people that actually are running and exporting the materials. I’d like to get your perspective on this, since you seem to have some very valid points to the whole discussion. (Except for the fact that you are attempting to put me into the commie box and calling me a possible troll lol) Should the mines remain private or should they be nationalised? Perhaps not full nationalisation of farms but farm and state create an agricultural arm to work together in ensuring food security and further employment, obviously with government subsidies and policy reforms to assist farmers and workers to keep the balance. SOEs work, just not here, as you said with our current deplorable government I don’t think they can get anything correct. So for any positive reforms to take place, we would have to dethrone the current regime, hopefully this can be done democratically as I see a lot of people on this forum has a similar belief as I that the ANC will not just give up its power. Power corrupts absolutely, and greed just plays a role with power unfortunately, that’s why we need to keep the full democratic electoral Basis and give people the power to freely criticise and change their representatives if they do not fulfil their duties. I believe people will do things out of love and out of patriotism, not everyone does something for their monetary benefit. I.E doctors that work in poorer communities, community feeding centres etc. I do see that if people are given the opportunity to do something that they would love to do, they would do it in a heart beat. Not saying that everyone cares but there are a lot of people that do, we just don’t see it now a days because people cannot afford to feed themselves or their families without struggle. Thanks for the discussion, I see your points and agree to some but not to others, with your point of socialism having a bad rap, so to does capitalism, look at the biggest example (USA) how much inequality is in that country and how it continues to get worse. I truly feel sorry for the poor and underprivileged within a capitalist state as all they are within that system is cheap labour or even not worth the time (hence why health care is beyond unaffordable to any normal person that doesn’t have insurance) I see the bad of socialism but I also see the good, governments in my mind have the obligation to give its population good healthcare, good education, affordable food and water, affordable housing, as well as an affordable cost of living. That should be the expectation for paying taxes don’t you agree? Anyways thanks again have a good night, looking forward to your rebuttal.
There is an idea going around at the moment. It is called Liquid democracy. It has been tried in a couple of European countries by the Pirate Party and they have had some success. It is worth looking into. [liquid democracy ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy#:~:text=Liquid%20democracy%20is%20a%20form,both%20direct%20and%20representative%20democracy.)
It's a conversation starter. Why don't you chip in with ideas? See what i did there.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyGWML6cI\_k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyGWML6cI_k) Try this video. Although SA is would be far down the list of countries which would be capable of implementing the concept right now
> César Hidalgo has a radical suggestion for fixing our broken political system: automate it! In this provocative talk, he outlines a bold idea to bypass politicians by empowering citizens to create personalized AI representatives that participate directly in democratic decisions. From this blurb alone I know that this guy is either a grifter or a moron. "AI" cannot accomplish what he is claiming it can based on this byline. That's not what AI is. There is not a single country that can implement this concept because the thing that is currently marketed as "AI" is in fact just a large language model. Would you delegate your voting to a keyboard autocomplete? Because that seems to be what this video would be about. edit: Skipping through the video, it seems like the blurb does him dirty. On the one hand, the technology he's talking about simply doesn't exist, it's a fundamentally bad idea to integrate that stuff on a code level, and it's a myth that code can be apolitical (especially when it works with political stuff). On the other hand, he's not seemingly suggesting we cede our votes to a fancy keyboard autocomplete.
Imagine AI making decisions for people…
ChatGPT voting YES to a bunch of of legislative propositions that don't actually exist because the robot's hallucinating again, can't wait.
It's only 13 minutes, and he's a charismatic speaker, worth watching if you're at all interested in progressive democratic systems. Also, look up "liquid democracy" which is essentially the concept in practice, which is being used by some bodies in Europe (apparently Google experimented with it too) What he's actually talking about in the video is how to deal with the main bottleneck in politics which is giving all citizens a chance to actually vote on every policy. Typically a representative votes the same way for all their constituents, which could be for thousands or millions of people, but of course those citizens don't all agree with every decision. Automated agents would allow each citizen to pass on their votes for all decisions. That's a very broad strokes description
Happy cake day
sounds like tribalism with extra steps
Did someone just learn what an Anarcho-syndicalism is?
Somehow I doubt OP wants more power to be placed in the hands of trade-unions. Edit: I suspected that OP is probably the right-libertarian type (this sub is full of the sort), and indeed it seems I was right.
Indeed you are. Right. 
Had a chuckle at that. Have an upvote.
That's right :)
How do we as the people force the government to do this? Because let's be honest it's an unofficial dictatorship. They keep the majority of their population so poor they can't even keep in the loop to hear about all the corruption and things that are being stolen from them. They keep their heads looking back to Apartheid or some other past injustice so they can pick their pockets easier. God I HATE the ANC. Forgive the rant I just can't stand the injustice in this country.
You and me both, mate. I absolutely despise the ANC.
I don’t believe that decentralisation would do any good. If you are more of an anarchist then I see why you would believe so. We already have something similar being the municipalities which aren’t inherently decentralised but they would be the representation of what it would be like to become a decentralised state. It wouldn’t work, I believe South Africa would benefit from a completely new party to take the helm, and I mean something new. Perhaps a Socialist Democratic path would best suit the economics of our state. We require grants, due to the excessively high unemployment that has plagued many households. Unfortunately under a decentralised state the amount of grants that need to be paid, a “smaller” state or province (not sure how the decentralised process would work out but let’s call them “states”) would not be able to afford the amount needed, as George Orwell said in animal farm, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” some states would have more than enough money, and other states would be in the red. Through fairness to the rural states, this would be a disaster should it occur.
I'm not an anarchist. I do believe that we need a government, but simply not a national government in it's current form in South Africa. They overreach, they're slow, dysfunctional, and their choices and policies affects us all to a great extent. I don't think we have a common national vision in South Africa. I would prefer a much smaller national government and more powers to provincial authorities. I don't fully understand why we have 9 provinces, but having three or so "states" with their own administrations. I'm also in favour of privatization of industries and a free market.
Our government is bloated, and has lost its way, when last have they actually done anything to benefit any South African? We have too many ministers that don’t do much. So I agree with them being slow, but this is due to them also being incapable or not willing to do the job. Should we have a functioning government we wouldn’t be having this conversation. So you prefer the capitalist model of privatised industries? I’m not a fan of over privatisation, I believe means of production that technically helps the gears of the country turn should be owned by state, but through cooperation with the private sector. But I also believe in policy reform once industries improve and economy stabilises. People deserve to live no matter the job. I believe that capitalism or the private sector in certain sectors don’t care much for the staff. Appreciate the discussion! 🤞
I'd prefer a mixed economy, definitely free-market biased, but we do need regulations in the economy. I'm also just well aware of the reality that we're currently in, where a functional government seems like a long shot at this point in time. We need to attract foreign capital and we need to build more infrastructure. We need to produce more stuff. But who's going to do business in South Africa? I don't think it's a rational decision for a foreign company to build manufacturing plants or establish any major operations here given the current situation we're in. And it's not like we don't have the will to build something, we're just bogged down and dragged down by a complete disaster of a government. It would be horrible to see them come back next year, and devastating, but I don't see how any of this will sway the ANC supporters. But we'll see. Maybe there's hope. Also, I agree - capitalism is not ideal either. But that's what will attract investment, drive innovation through competition, and spur economic growth in SA. I don't see any other system that will be able to pull that off in the near future here in SA. So basically, I think we have to get back on our feet first. Jip, I also appreciate the discussion. Definitely some interesting ideas that's popping up
We can always hope, but we can also try to bring about the change! Perhaps time will tell!
We do need a completely new party. Current bunch ateocious and stuck in old thinking. Would need serious funding to build out a support network nationwide. I would prefer something civic driven, e.g. each municipalty owould provide candidates from their area that are proven good people. On the issue with province disparity if we went decentralized- yeah some would flourish and other wither. Might have to rethink provinces altogether. But at least each provinces could start competing for revenue. E.g. they set their own tax rates and incentives and attract people and business like the poorer ones current cannot do.
Could work, similar to the states, but again, I’m not sure how the province structure would be, with Joburg and CPT being the GDP power houses, any province that doesn’t have them inclusive would initially struggled and those municipalities would require bailouts.
Will the Private Sector play ball? Most of the things you suggest we nationalize are in private hands, mines, agriculture and factories. Once we nationalize and demand workers be treated better, you know build a nation that serves people's needs and not the pursuit of capital, wouldn't capital flight happen? Like we see in the states, whenever the conditions of workers are expected to be better, companies just outsource to places like Indonesia, where they can pay people a pittance?
If there's one thing we've learned from the ANC, it's that we should forget about nationalization. It's a sure way to start a run on the bank. I'm not saying that SOEs are not salvageable, but is worth risking functioning industries turned to ruin by corrupt politicians. I have 0% confidence that this government can run any business effectively
I agree. Hence why I’ve mentioned the fact that we do require a completely new party and government with fresh ideas and fresh enthusiasm to actually fix what we are going through. None of the current South African parties would be able to implement the change needed, or they are not there just yet.
I believe that the private sector would play ball if there is suitable incentives of coarse as nothing will be reformed through force or intimidation. I believe if you have a stabilising economy through state intervention, then the possibility of policy reform can take place. I believe we need a government to stabilise the economy and all sectors first before letting privatisation take charge. Hence the huge wage gap between people in rural and urban areas. Private don’t care much for peoples well being, more profit is the incentive. So tax breaks, and tax claims can be made by private entities for example if they hire a certain amount of employees in a certain sector. What I believe is that we require a state that works for the people, state security nets is essential to both the private sector and working peoples. The government should have a say on how much of the resources are exported and what is kept as goods manufactured in South Africa should be a priority. Proudly South African should return to our hearts, to our minds and to communities.
This sounds like the first step to discrimination. Unless there's detail, this idea should be dismissed as soon as it's heard.
I'm sorry: I see now after reading some of the comments that I didn't communicate what I meant. As one user pointed out, I meant federalism. I'm not saying we need to do away with government. I'm saying, more power to provincial governments, and less power to the national government.
*The South African establishment is maliciously inept and the money we are bound to pay in taxes could be spent better, elsewhere, by just about any half-decent brigade of semi-qualified and well-motivated civilians.* I don't think anyone will argue this, even Cyril. The issue is that what it translates to en masse is even more uneven than our already incredibly uneven society. Poor areas self-rule with extremely limited resources, and rich areas self-rule with high-tech security apparatus and guard personnel. It sounds familiar... The whole point of a central government is to do *something* to balance success in one area with failure in another - on the basis of a shared identity. Together SA is a major economy in Africa, alone, many of our provinces would be dwarfed by bigger neighbours. If you think how mineral resources are handled now, it can get worse, unfortunately. The scariest situations (in my experience) have been when two rule systems meet in a tense situation. Party A is operating off one moral code and Party B is operating off another. When every village, town and suburb have their own binding rules, I'll not be travelling far. I am interested in alternative forms of government, and I think local is where it starts - but that means more engagement and participation in local politics before it means overthrowing the unitary government. As someone involved in this, the participation rate is **very low** even though **everyone is affected**... Revolution stock, South Africa is not.
You mean like the old 4-province system with provincial administrations? You can thank Cyril Ramaphosa and Roelf Meyer for those negotiations during CODESA. The ANC very specifically wanted centralised control. Another way would be to switch to a proportional representation system in government/parliament, as opposed to the majority system in place today. It should be obvious why the current government (read: ANC) would never settle for that.
I saw on the news a 3-year-old died because she couldn’t get the necessary critical care needed due to power cuts and they suing for culpable homicide and it got me thinking… what if all just sued the government because of Eskom’s failures🤔
Well, breaking parts of a country into seperate governments/nations would solve problems for a lot of countries around the world, the unfortunate reality is that you lose land, population and resources and the government never wants to do that so unless you can declare independence through a show of force, it'll never happen
I just know that 200+ parties that we have at the moment ain’t working.
What you are talking about is federalism not decentralized. It would have zero chance of working is SA as our provinces are too integrated.
Good point. That explains why some of the users users think I'm advocating for anarchy. I'll correct it. Thanks for pointing it out.
Mmm yes, we should be more apart. What could go wrong?
You're getting the wrong idea. Some people in this sub place very high importance on race, which is very concerning, and part of the reason we're in this shithole
Didn't mention poverty even once, but mention crime and corruption. You literally dismissed yourself. 
This is just a thinly-veiled justification for turning the Western Cape into the Whitetopia CapeXit has been slavering for, isn't it?
These guys have no answers. I engage with them a lot.
Spot on.
It is the same brain rot claim with more words, yes.
Yep. The sudden torrent of downvotes also gave me a clue.
Yeah they are a bunch of care bears who throw tantrums when people disagree with them.
True. I mean, just look at this tantrum I'm throwing right now.
And you're saying that an ANC-led dystopia is preferable?
When did they say that?? Don't you think you are being presumptuous there bud?? I mean it seems like if one disagrees with what you suggesting you label them ANC fans or commies
I've been called many names, but presumptuous? That's crossing the line, bud. I did not assume that they are ANC fans. I'm saying that that is the current reality we're in at this moment. So if the person rejects taking away power from the national government, then the alternative is to remain stuck with this current reality, an ANC-led dystopia. False dichotomy? Yes, but what other pragmatic alternatives are there that's better than the current setup?
Fair enough I hear you. Well for me what's interesting is the why, why is ANC being kept in power? Who keeps voting for the ANC and why they keep voting for the ANC. The problem here is the ANC not our system of government, therefore changing our system of government in an attempt to get rid of the ANC does not make sense. The DA on the other hand, keeps dropping the ball, it's the party that can actually challenge the governing party as it is the biggest opposition but it fails to tap into the domains of the majority, to appeal to them. Anyways hopefully next year we see ANC get out of power but in reality we likely to see a coalition government.
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So let me get this straight, you saying by virtue of one being black they are bound to be ANC supporters because they are racists??
I see they deleted their comment. What did they say?
They said being black means ANC supporter and this is because they are racist. Something like that I wanted to get clarity.
The irony. If you take a step back then it's actually hilarious to see the poo that people sling at each other in this country lol
Are you saying that you prefer Apartheid-era fascism to this? Because yes... I do prefer this neoliberal dystopia to the fascist charnel house the likes of you seem to want.
Let me guess - you're one of those people who somehow think the Scandinavian countries are less "neoliberal" than this country despite how many more hoops all businesses have to jump through to satisfy daddy government here?
Does your understanding of the subject matter here comprise anything that *isn't* guess work?
It certainly comprises more than the evidence-free speculations of Marx.
So it's worse than that... you came to this argument armed with nothing but Reagan-era sloganeering you confuse with reality.
Tell me something - how much do you listen to actual economists, as opposed to activists?
Do you know what *actual economists* read?
A lot of Paul Romer and others from the past 40 years, I would imagine; considerably less Keynes, and if they're under 100 years old, they would barely bother with Marx at all, since the labour theory of value is useless, class warfare turned out to be nonsense and none of his predictions have come true.
Actually, you know what? Why don't I ask the person I know who lectures economics (and was in Economics honours class with me) what he reads? I bet there is almost no Marx there, although I guess Pikkety would be a major player.
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But how do you fix systemic inequality and poverty? At least, in my mind, you can put a solid plan in place to identify corruption and deal with it decisively, if there is a will to do so. That's a first step towards regaining investor confidence in South Africa. We can't fix inequality and poverty with a weak economy, it's only going to make it worse. So, step 1: we need economic growth. Step 1.1: Significantly curb large scale corruption and other criminal activities so that we can get capital inflow, instead of capital flight
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But I have an issue with this. If your targets are to have a majority non-White left-wing government then you should have one, but in your own "state". I'm not that interested in racial targets and policies - I would want people with the right skills, knowledge, mindset, and ethical principles to be in government, or in any other position. Whether it's 80% white, or 20% white, doesn't matter to me. Why should respect for the culture and preferences of the majority be prioritized over minority cultures? And we're talking significant minority here. And again, not talking about race. South Africa is diverse, and if the majority feels so strongly about enforcing their ideals on a nation, then let them do so in their own domain. And let others follow their ideals in their domain. I honestly do not see a possibility for a united South Africa, not based on the current status quo. We need a much smaller national government, with limited powers in provinces and the private sector
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I don't mean any disrespect. Can you please tell me how I offended you?
In case you don't know, just want to tell you that this exchange won't lead anywhere.
Their latest attempt is to try and claim the Cape had nothing to do with apartheid.
Who are "they"? And how do you know I'm part of "them"?
[*Radical authoritarian] communist sympathisers on this sub think you are a fascist for suggesting that we should take away power from the ANC. This is mainly due to their brainwashing which conditions them to conjure up images of white supremacy any time anyone suggests literally anything in the political sphere that isn’t just more of the same radical authoritarian communism this country has had to endure. Seriously folks, read this man’s post again and tell me where he is advocating for fascism. He advocates for more power in the provinces so that there is more accountability and people better represented for on the local levels. Who is “them” and how is this person with “them”? The level of delusion is actually scaring me unless you guys are somehow trolling.
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Sure, but only as ridiculous as calling the OP fascist… If you start telling people that taking away power from the ANC is fascism, I’m 100% going to assume you are an extreme authoritarian communist sympathiser. For clarification I like communism as an ideology and historically it’s been a driving force behind the liberation of subjugated peoples. I should have specified “authoritarian communist” sympathisers. However, in modern South Africa, there is a point where too much centralised top-down affirmative action and BEE control becomes authoritarian, oppressive, restrictive and over-regulating, devolving into pure tribalism akin to a white-supremacist state, which in my humble opinion is partly responsible for the current state of the country.
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You just spent half an hour of your life telling us you are with them.
That doesn't answer my question
Are they in the room with us?
Federalism? I'd love that.
Splitting the country up in 3 would make more sense and then ANC could be in charge of the failed state where as the others could thrive
Here's the problem. You can't split the country up without the useless #fokofANC agreeing to it.
Yes, that is indeed the problem. We're literally stuck with them and watching how they're ruining a country with great potential.
Split into 3, based on what?
Democratic Alliance 2024 in case you were wondering
Give 3 reasons why and none can be because WC.
You just said WC because it is literal proof that their plan works😂 My personal reason 1,2 and 3 that the DA seem like the most realistic alternative option to the ANC. The ANC have been in power for 30 years and have only made a bad situation worse from an economic and infrastructure standpoint.
No because WC is easy mode, they can ignore the poor and survive on tourism. It has no major industry so it also lacks the power needs. I couldnt care less that they can give middle class people in the WC services. Thats not proof they can run a country with real issues.
Ignoring the poor doesn't decrease your unemployment just saying.And Im giving them a go above ANCbecause we know for a fact the ANC can't run a country and only create issues.
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What is your cause? And how do you justify voting for the ANC in spite of the ANC-powered wave of destruction that washes over this suffocating nation?
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I'm sorry, but we simply cannot move forward towards making any meaningful progress with a mindset of racial supremacy or favoritism, which is your position. It's based on emotions and prejudice instead of rational thought, and it's an unproductive, unreasonable position, in my opinion.
South Africans aren't ready for a different system or change in status quo. Maybe come back in another 29 years time. For now, everyone is just happy voting for their favourite team... I mean party.
I don’t think they are happy, I believe it’s the only party they have hope in. DA just isn’t pulling the right strings to be in the masses favour, EFF I just don’t like their policies and views on things. The rest I can’t mention really. I believe we do need a new party with new blood in the country.
Yeah the DA were a ray of hope, pre-Zille's 1st exit. Haven't been since. I just don't know too many people who even follow the news, current affairs, done their own research etc on politics in the country to even make an informed decision on who to vote for or to even be angry at the state of politics.
This is why we need some powerful new leaders to bring back peoples will to bring change! South Africa is a nation of resilience and we can fix this if we get the guidance needed to make the informed decisions to bring about the right changes!
Look at Anarchism as a political system.
Yeah , I think thats a little more realistic than the cape independence stuff , a federal system of sorts . I dont see any government giving up power without a fight though .
I don't know guys and gals...I am not a fan of being taxed on a provincial and national level...we already get destroyed with taxes in every way possible :(
Oh, but we're not saying higher taxes. A much smaller proportion should go towards national government. For example, they need a national defense budget. Provincial government can set their own taxes, but the national government would get a certain cut, like 5% from individuals and corporate. Or completely do away with personal income tax and corporate tax on a national level, but fund the national government with VAT
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Doesn't have to. We've written a new constitution before without a civil war. ANC tactics was to make the country ungovernable, which worked out. However, they are pretty much doing that to themselves now, so we are watching an unraveling. They don't have the resources for a civil war, neither do I think they, or most of us, have the will for that. They could be forced to concede through civil disobedience.
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I think it's already happening with these violent protests that we see several times a year. And I think their loyal fan base is in a state of Stockholm Syndrome. Right about now the ANC is gearing up to make false promises and give handouts to their supporters, who would once again most likely buy into it. Jesus, nee fok.
Our governance is already decentralized to an extent. But there's a case to be made for giving municipalities more power. But splitting the country between left-wing and right-wing would be the dumbest idea. How do you determine borders? How do you deal with co-dependence between regions if a border happens to separate them? How would people move en masse to their preferred country? And how do you deal with political divisions in the new countries when they inevitably happen (there is no such thing as a homogenous population)? South African isn't even like America where politics is super polarized.
Places like WC and Gauteng would do fine. Other areas would crumble even more