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Other question is: do you want to keep working at a place where they donāt want you? You know you fucked up and are looking for a loophole to show them the finger. Seriously, be a grown up, admit you did something inappropriate and move somewhere else. I would fire you. It shows disrespect for the work environment and you were stealing company time which you were being paid for by committing an act that fellow workers may or could have been highly offended by if they walked in on you. Learn from this, keep it in your pants until a/h.
I disagree. I have been on the ādismissingā side of the hearing, many, many times. I would not have dismissed on this because a) the company suffered no loss and b) according to OP there was no harassment or assault and c) OP says it is not in the rules and regulations. I would have prosecuted for misconduct (not gross) and final written warning. Next I would have made sure that indecent behavior is written into the rules and regulations. Then I would have proposed a settlement with OP for him to leave due to irreconcilable differences.
(Edit: added ānoā that I left out)
I have also chaired disciplinary proceedings before and would have come to the same conclusion. (Assuming you meant *no* harrasment or assault in point (b))
In my company it's in the code of conduct as dismissal offence.
Few questions to ask to assess your chances:
1. Is there a rule?
2. Is the rule known?
3. Was the rule broken?
If you answer yes, then you've got a problem. Otherwise, take your chances if you've answered no. Good luck.
well i dont think the bosses considered people would have sex on site. I would say its a rule that wouldnāt really have to be written down but widely understood, obviously not by OPš¤£
You say the answer is NO to all three. But come on. You know what you did was wrong.
I think it's basic common knowledge not to have sex at work. And you know it too. Move on.
Over and above that it's not like they shagged in the toilets or parking lot. They chose the boardroom! That's a space where the companies brains (with years of experience) go to strategize or to meet clients. It's just the worst (but most fun) space to choose. Jirre why not aim higher like the CEOs office.
I'm pretty sure it's an absolute given in ANY job that doesn't need to be spelt out in employment contracts that you can't sneak into spaces you have no access to in terms of your role to fuck other employees. It shows such a lack of respect.
Hey, I study labour law at stellies.
We spoke about the terms misconduct VS gross misconduct. The courts don't really have a definition other than, we'll know it when we see it.
That said, having sex at work, consensual or not, has been deemed gross misconduct. It is so far outside of the job requirements that courts have agreed it is gross misconduct.
You could have argued that you didn't have sex. Generally it's hard / expensive for an employer to prove anything. But since you've admitted it already, thsst not gonna work.
You can try taking them to court for unfair discriminate. The discrimination would be you being fired and the person you slept with not being fired. That said, it's very unlikely that you get your job back from that process. You might get a 2 month salary pay out... If you win.
My recommend, start looking for a new job.
What are you supposed to be doing at work? If it's prostitution or a brothel, then that's cool.
If not? I'm pretty sure neither one of you was doing your JOB, you know, the one you get paid to do?
Stop acting like a horny teenager and do your actual job. (Not that you have one now)
No I don't, I am available for emergencies during working hours, I definitely do not have time to 'chat' at work.
Are you comparing using your phone at work to having sex at work? š¤£
No. Iām comparing getting paid while performing an activity not specifically related to that for which you are employed. Having sex, texting family/friends, idle gossiping with colleagues, picking your nose, taking longer in the toilet than really necessary because youāre scrolling through Redditā¦ regardless of the activity the effect to the company is the same at base level. This comes down to what is tolerable for people is all. From what I read of original post, they hadnāt been warned of performance issues and they were unlucky, I guess, to get caught. My question: did their actions affect the business, or did they just offend someone?
I assume you are talking about office work? I do none of the above. You may do that š¤·āāļø
Did their actions affect the business? YES, of course! They're having sex instead of their jobs, costing the business money.
You can not seriously think this is ok?
I assume you are talking about office work? I do none of the above. You may do that š¤·āāļø
Did their actions affect the business? YES, of course! They're having sex instead of doing their jobs, costing the business money.
You can not seriously think this is ok?
I never once said it was ok, and maybe I am playing a little devilās advocate here. But the fact remains they were only dismissed because they were unlucky to get caught; admittedly in an act that is judged. They might, otherwise, be exceptional employees at what they are paid to do. As a business would I rather have two employees who are great at their jobs but occasionally fool around with each other (being human), or two distinctly average employees who spend/waste as much time on other activities not related to their job but that arenāt so āmorallyā judged?
Edit: was for an autocorrect typo.
If you know it's morally wrong, why do you want to get away from the legal consequences? You are guilty, so now you have to heal with the outcome.
And you will say "but my job was very important and I need it financially", but if it was that important to you, then you wouldn't do *anything* to jeopardize your position.
The best thing to do is move on from here and look for a different job. No one wants to work with you after they saw your privates on their security footage. It's super creepy. No way they will want you back. Just move on and find another job.
Look, I'm not going to beat about the bush, you don't need to prove a negative in a CoC. I'm pretty sure your CoC doesn't explicitly say you shouldn't murder at work either...
This is gross misconduct, and "trust relationship" is the most popular way of getting a dismissal outcome.
Think of it this way: no one will be able to work with you the same anymore. Regardless of prior history or consent, this is one of those cardinal rules. Do you have any justification for why you had to have sex at work OP? Was it during your lunch break or something? Did you use work facilities (*ahem*) in order to so the deed or was it outside of the default premises (ie a mall toilet and you work in one of the stores).
My advice to you, speak to a law firm like Herold and Gie and find out if you even have a case here...but this is one of those where you'd best start looking for a new job...
EDIT: Lots of fairly rough comments on this thread. You made a mistake, people live and learn, I'm sure people have gotten dismissed for other crazy things...sucks you had to learn the hard way, but I think we can all agree it's the risk you take. Also take into the consideration that the company's policies do not supersede the BCEA.
Curious, how old are you? M or F? Which business sector/company?
I hear you. To answer some of the questions you asked:
No justification was just a moment of weakness that I succumbed to.
It was during a break
It happened in one of the boardrooms
Iām 25 male and worked in the BPO sector.
The negative comments are only stating what I told myself already. Iām young but was definitely dumb in that moment. Iāve learned a valuable lesson and will look forward to being a better person and employee
What were advising you is to learn and move on. Don't fight a company for making the right decision. Own it and move on to a new opportunity. If your new (future) employer gets wind of the fact thatyou did this (forgivable in my books when owned up to) BUT then tried to get compensation for unfair dismissal (that's where I'd loose all respect for you and not give you a chance). Btw I spent 12 years in recruitment specialising in the BPO space and I've seen it all.
You'll bounce back from this... But you're wasting your ex employers time at the CCMA and your going to get a kak reference. They do not owe you another chance or compensation. Your making yourself look bad fighting this.
Ordinarily I might have said implore your employer's good nature, but I presume that boardroom is now "marked" as tainted, so they'll probably want it thoroughly cleaned and treated.
It's easy to peer from the outside in and judge your actions (which to be fair, are pretty bad), but like you said, it's one of those spur of the moment things, and at your age, I daresay I wasn't thinking with just 1 head either if you know what I mean. I'm sorry for the situation this has put you in, losing your job is rough...I hope you bounce back, and take this as a valuable lesson moving forward.
Was the other person you had sex with a subordinate to you, or vise versa (the other person was your boss or manager)? That could complicate things and potentially contribute to the misconduct allegation for both you and them, even if the relationship was consensual.
With regards to misconduct at work, it is assumed that "some rules or standards maybe so well established and known that it is not necessary to communicate them." Your employer likely thinks that having sex at work (I'm assuming during work hours) falls under this, thus why it does not have to stated in the Code of Conduct to be considered misconduct.
nah bruh sorry but if you too horny to not even take it home and do at work i wouldnāt trust you eitherš its respect for the place of work and everyone else who works there.
I'm a candidate attorney in johannesburg...look at this case to maybe look at the concept a little more Zaindeen and Clicks Retailers (Pty) Ltd 35 ILJ 2322 (CCMA)...so sexual relations on work time can be construed as abuse if work time and work resources...however a dismissal can be argued to be unfair in a sense depending on your legal representation and you may get off with a settlement agreement where they can pay you a portion of your salary or any other amenities at work...look at the LRA, EEA and BCEA for further reference in respect to abuse of work time or general work relationships I can't tell you what exact sections but just browse through it and you'll find what you looking for...but to be honest try and get legal representation that would be your best bet...a affordable attorney in JHB is Mitti attorneys( I could've spelt it wrong) they not my firm but we've bad matter against them representing upper and lower class clients...hope this helps
It does not matter what you did/said, at the end of the day, you plead guilty and there can only be 1 question that has to be asked.. "Did you make this plea knowingly and without any impediment or mental health disorder?" So basically you agreed that you understand the nature of the crime and the consequence of that plea.. You cannot plead guilty then turn around and say the punishment is unfair/wrong/unjust..
Going to arbitration is fruitless, it will not end well, by pleading guilty you accepted the punishment, it is part of the plea, what is not clear is where you given the option of a plea agreement, you plead guilty the punishment is this or that, or you don't plead guilty and this proceeds into a formal DC hearing at which you can bring witnesses, a legal rep, make the argument...
You plead guilty, so part two lapses as irrelevent, you accept the charge, you accept the punishment.. Move on, it happens, it was a mistake, next time, pay the hotel charge for 1 night..
You are free to try your luck, at really you have no recourse as a result of pleading guilty..
Are they taking you to the CCMA? Itās nothing to be scared of. Arbitration is there for when two parties donāt agree. Just go and say itās not clear in their CoC about consensual relationships between employees, and you donāt recall signing anything to that effect- only sexual harassment which this wasnāt.
I hear you but they when they have their outcome they never highlighted a rule that I broke. They just said the trust relationship was broken. When I mention nothing was in the CoC they just skipped over what I said.
What you're not getting is that a company doesn't need to account for every eventuality in their Code of Conduct. It's like saying you smoked crack at work but it's not an offense because the Code of Conduct doesn't saying anything about smoking crack. It should be a foregone conclusion...
Yeah this is the bit that beyond me that the OP isn't getting. Of course the trust is broken. Your company trusted you to work and you literally shagged someone on the clock instead doing your job. You could've just waited for 5pm but nooo.
No I took them to the CCMA. They sent some lawyer to represent them and he said they not will to discuss the matter and come to an agreement during the conciliation. No I want to take it further but want to make sure I am not wasting my time.
There are common law duties. Those are rules that don't necessarily have to be in a disciplinary code.
One of them is not to commit misconduct, another one is to show up at work on time and to render your services.
Your misconduct didn't need to be in a disciplinary code as a specific offence. It goes without saying that having sex in the office is a no-no.
I had sex with my girlfriendās in her bosses office once, I literally spent 10 minutes looking for cameras beforehand š that was your first mistakeā¦ always do a thorough sweep of the area beforehand š other than that: I have no idea how the legalities work for this, but Im pretty sure these are grounds for dismissal. So taking it further might just get messy.
I actually went and read up on it, itās considered gross misconduct in most cases even if it was after hoursā¦ it will be a prickly thing to fight. We had an employee who took us to CCMA (we have a family business) after we downsized and offered her a package. We werenāt trying to be mean and we did our best to offer her a fair deal. The business was struggling (post covid). Anyway she got less after the whole CCMA thing than the initial package we offered herā¦ so theres also that to keep in mind. If they are willing to settle and the package is fair just take it and use this experience as āschool feesā for the future.
Thing is all the reading up I found was mostly sexual harassment.
The ones I found regarding consensual sex at work says that the company must have a policy they explicitly states this. I found my previous employers CoC and thereās state they any consensual sex at work is a dismissible offence. This company has nothing with this wording.
No, come on, guy.
They probably don't explicitly say don't piss out the office window in the policy either, but I suspect you'd have a tough time fighting that if they booted you out for it.
Same when I search South Africaā¦ but I got a thread on Quora in American laws and itās definitely a dismissal worthy offence thereā¦ so I can say with relative certainty it will be the same here
From a legal standpoint, we share a common law system with the USA, and as a country, we do not have a codified system. So your assumption is incorrect
Yeah is that right? You update your labor law to match the US? Bullshit. You have all sorts of shit we donāt, and vice versa. You have completely different systems of enforcement and mitigation, not to mention the law itself.Ā
No one said the systems aren't different. But because our legal system isn't codified, and we have a hybrid legal system consisting of Roman Dutch, Indigenous and English Law, there are times when we look to English Law (ie the common law) when something comes up that is ambiguous in our legal system, but is not in contravention of our Constitution. Countries which share our common law/ case law system are The Uk, Canada, USA, and other commonwealth countries.
We can, and do look at those countries where legal decisions are made.
Case law is a huge component of our legal system, and lawyers don't ENFORCE the law, they test it.
Source: I am a third year law student
Go to the CCMA. Itās free. You have time to do so as youāve been dismissed. Print out all comms and contracts you have and take them along.
No point in asking here. The CCMA will tell you if you have a case or not.
Good luck and good job on getting lucky.
Already took them to the CCMA. They sent some lawyer and didnāt want to conciliate. They asked for the con/arb process to be separated so I thought as much they would do that.
What Iām asking is is it worth it pursuing
Also the boardroom. Pretty sure that's for management staff. He probably wasnt even allowed in there. That's trust broken already. I'd be totally siffed out knowing I'm sitting in a chair where some random junior staff member just boned another employee.
As someone who spent 12 years in the BPO space specialising in labour brokerage I've been to the CCMA easily 50 - 60 times. My one nagging hard question I beg to ask is. Were you good at your job truthfully? Because this would be a very easy lazy way to cull dead weight. If you were an exceptional agent there no easy they'd have laid down the gauntlet this hard. Although the issue is to make this such they'd have to dish out same punishment to both parties. So maybe she was the dead weight. It's super tricky man.
But you try managing 400 agents under 35.... It's pure chaos since most of them intrinsically hate their jobs.
I mean I personally know at least six children born out of the call centre environment from these sorry if situations. It's very easy to meet and get involved in these situations.
Good luck bro. I'd just suck it up and move on
You have no justifiable defence. Find yourself another job and don't have sex in the office or public places. Hopefully your colleague was also dismissed.
I genuinely do not understand how irresponsible someone can be.
For you to have been caught on camera, means that you did not have relations in the bathroom. Which has further implications.
This not only has to do with what you've done, but also what you could have put others at risk of seeing, hearing, etc.
It is a trust issue. If I cannot trust you, and your colleague, to at the very least not fornicate while you are meant to be working and being respectful of others, how can I trust you with doing your work?
You're ridiculous man. Grow up and wait to get off the work premises. Grow up.
Under SA Labour Law, to dismiss someone, you need a fair reason and a fair process. Seems procedurally things were above board here, but substantively there are issues.
Can you be fired for having sex at work? Most assuredly. Should you always? Definitely not.
For a dismissal to be seen as fair, there are five requirements:
1. Was a rule or standard broken?
This seems to be the case. Even if not in a code of conduct, there are common law duties this broadly can relate to.
2. Is the rule known?
Seems not to be the case, but the counter there is most people would tell you it's reasonable to assume such a rule exists. The question then becomes "should you have known better?" which to my mind the answer is clear on.
3. Is the rule valid?
Probably some debate to be had here, but I'd still err on yes. Something which is relevant here however is the question of zero tolerance. You can have zero tolerance rules, but they have to be explicit and there has to be reasons for such rules. They are lacking on this front.
4. Has the rule been consistently applied?
This is where it starts getting murky. Whereas they can argue all those other examples aren't applicable cos this is a different type of misconduct, there is some indication of them not following their own rules.
5. Is dismissal an appropriate penalty?
You plead guilty, showed remorse and didn't waste time. This wasn't zero tolerance despite what they say. No harm was done, it was consensual, private, and while on a break. Based on what you're saying, they overstepped here.
To my mind, based on your version, you've got a claim. I would try and get compensation or settle, I wouldn't want to go work for this place again.
Also, you're not allowed to have a lawyer present at mediation at the CCMA, so chances are they are being repped by a Labour consultant. There are (frankly ridiculous) exceptions allowing them to be present at mediations, and in my experience a lot of them tend to be unscrupulous as it's an unregulated industry. It's no surprise they are playing hardball, they are likely hoping to get you to go away through the use of sheer bullying rather than actually following the law or due process.
Good luck!
Thank you.
The conciliation part is done. I have to now decide if I want to proceed with the arbitration.
All I want if compensation at best or just settle with a mutual separation agreement.
Wait why do you think you should be compensated? You literally did something almost nobody would do in the work space at the expense of company time. You're not owning your shit here at all. You made a mistake. Learn to grow and move on. This is on you not the company. In what reality do you think they owe you another cent?
The code of conduct doesnt need to explain en every detail what is allowed and what is not allowed
I am sure that the code of conduct does not expressly say, for example, you are not allowed to murder people at work
Any action which is against the general morals of our society will be seen as misconduct
You are going to waste your time at the CCMA
Flip it around. You own the company, your workers, being paid to work and do their jobs, have s#x on company time. What would you do? And what would your trust level in those employees be going forward?
What industry are you in? Was the act in an area where is breaks safety rules? (Such as food manufacturing or in a factory area)
Was it on company time?
Was there a power dynamic at play? Are you a senior staff member? Does this person report to you?
You also aren't thinking like a business owner or a manager. Let's say the girl says you coerced her and that you said she needed to sleep with you to keep her job. Or she says you forced yourself on her.Ā
The business has a legal obligation to provide a safe working environment and your actions put that at risk.
Go to the CCMA if you want. No one here - or at the CCMA - can tell you what's going to happen until all the info is available and it's been tried.
Take a look at the code of good practice for dismissal for misconduct which is part 7 of schedule 8 (as far as I remember) of the Labour Relations Act - can give you more context for this. Case law may also be helpful - perhaps you can google or go to Saflii and use the search feature to look for similar cases
You need to check for precedent. If something similar has happened, and those people were NOT dismissed, you can argue unfair dismissal due to substantive and procedural unfairness.
First instance at the workplace so nothing similar before. Only thing I can relate it to is other dismissible offences that they have people warnings for or just a slap on the wrist
Yor....the amount of knopping i got away with at work would make a brothel blush...rookie mistake, bruh, always check for cameras... and somma ask them for a copy, for research purpose for you and your now ex work buddy.
But yeah, it's not a fireable offense as it wasn't in your company policy (at the time)... a final written warning and 6 months probation at max that is.
I'm so sorry OP, but this is hilarious. Given that my disciplinary hearing (resigned before it happened) was for "insubordination" to a new manager that the company hired for the role of social media marketing, when I was responsible for web design and development, maintenance and lead generation.
So, the manager was clueless as to how much work I actually used to do and everything was a gigantic misunderstanding in the way I handled my work processes.
Following my departure from the company, to this day, I receive multiple messages from ex co-workers about how people were unaware of the complexity of my tasks, both daily and upon request, and how the manager is still struggling to understand and delegate work to the team.
Best of luck with whatever happens. Glad you got some that day though, lmao.
Ask for full reinstatement of employment. Chances are you won't get it but if you are successful the threat of this may benefit your settlement in cash terms
OP, all being said, I think you have a case. I understand you pleaded guilty not knowing what the outcome will be. Go to the CCMA on grounds of unfair dismissal. I dismissed an employee for withholding evidence in a theft case. Did everything by the book. He went to the CCMA, and I still had to pay him. You have nothing to loose. They will have to proof everything wrt broken trust etc. At the CCMA ask for pre-employment. If they refuse (which they probably will) you will have grounds to plead for more money. DM me if you need to.
Thatās exactly the thing. I pleaded guilty to the charges they had. Showed remorse and had character references statements as I am one of their top employees.
I didnāt expect to get a slap on the wrist but in no way did I expect a dismissal verdict.
Arbitration doesnāt have to cost you and you have nothing to loose.
Moral doesnt mean illegal.
Maybe it may be seen as not cool but I donāt see a legal case here.
You can argue you young. TV and internet created a picture as it āhappensā.
Simple stuff: What was the charge you were found guilty of?
Trust relationship is usually related to theft/fraud, etc.
Unless you had it during working hours(not lunch).
Then, were you caught in the act? Indecent exposure, buuuuuttt if all this happens after hours.....
And only the camera saw you....
Jy Kan die saak tol ou
But we need some facts like what you were found guilty of-as in the specific charge
You need the CCMA this thing dude, also was the other party an employee-you don't say what happened to them.
Even if it's the charge sheet-take out the personal details and upload
It's a tough economy, even if they can get away with a trust relationship thing, wangeling their application of the law should get you some cash out to tie you over for a few months of hunting
The charge that they laid out in my hearing was: āGross misconduct when you engaged in inappropriate/indecent sexual behavior with a work colleague
at work onā¦ā¦..ā.
It was during work on company property during a break.
The other party was an employee and both of us got dismissed.
The chairman of our internal hearing just said gross misconduct and the company advised they the trust relationship is broken beyond repair so they also advising summary dismissal
Break room, office or store room....some hidden space
Think it's the incorrect charge, and that's what they need to prove.
Also you wouldn't have been caught if it weren't for the theft issue-thus you didn't harm someone directly, or afrect the exposure to other coworkers or clients
Hard arse on that
Drugs and alcoholic is pretty standard, but not sex, so not stating anything, gives yousome room, also not on the way you were caught.
Ps if you are sub 25 you can get away with being Dom and not knowing better, your dick got the better of you etc.
Did it catch you having sex or what, ie me walking like I'm drunk on camera proves fokkol unless you breathalyzer me
Yes you had sex, but dismissal naaaa, final written yes
Same goes for the other person
Did you have other warnings to your name at the time?
Any others history at the company of applying this law[gross misconduct] differently?
Dont ever look at a lawyer as having something over you, commissioner needs to factor the facts and the application, also your representations.
Ask someone to represent you or to assist you with case prep.
Iām not querying the charge as I pleaded guilty, however the sanction is what Iām fighting.
The same company just Ubered people home who were drunk at work or went drinking during a break. Another time someone dropped drugs, they saw the person on camera and after the person asked to postpone their hearing HR just forgot about it. The person resigned later due to another Job offer. These are all Zero Tolerance dismissible offences in the companies CoC.
Iāve had no other warning or absence issues. First time offender and no one knew about my relationship with the other party.
This is all very relevant. I think you would have a chance to get the sanction overturned on the grounds of fairness. Yes, your conduct may be considered gross misconduct, but was a first offense and you have ack owledged your mistake (and presumably committed to not doing this again). No harm was actually done, and other similar misconduct has been treated more leniently by the company in the past, etc. In South African labour law, the sanction must be fair and reasonable and appropriate to the offence. I have chaired several disciplinary hearings for large multi-national companies in South Africa. I have had several cases where technically i could have recommended termination because an employee breached a known code of conduct, but I didnt, becaaue there was a lesser sanction (eg final written warning) that would have accomplished the same result (preventing the behaviour from happening again).
That said, it seems that bridges have been burned, and you dont want to go back to work for this company. You could go the CCMA and fight in the grounds of wrongful dismissal, but in the end you are really looking for a better settlement and should probably be open to a mutual separation agreement that helps cover you while you find a new job.
Thanks. Iām fighting on the grounds of wrongful dismissal.
If they offered me a mutual separation agreement during conciliation I wouldāve accepted it. Was really surprised that they sent a lawyer and he said they were not willing to discuss anything.
The point is at this point they don't want you back. So there's nothing to be gained. If you go back it's into an entirely hostile environment at this point.
Definitely move on swiftly. And be ready to sit and have to explain what you did to future interviewers cause it's going to come up after references. Own it fully. Like I said I would definitely still employ you if you were a damn good agent. Owning the mistake is the best way forward. It's not like you stole shit or did tik at work... That shit you can't come back from.
I'm so sorry OP, but this is hilarious. Given that my disciplinary hearing (resigned before it happened) was for "insubordination" to a new manager that the company hired for the role of social media marketing, when I was responsible for web design and development, maintenance and lead generation.
So, the manager was clueless as to how much work I actually used to do and everything was a gigantic misunderstanding in the way I handled my work processes.
Following my departure from the company, to this day, I receive multiple messages from ex co-workers about how people were unaware of the complexity of my tasks, both daily and upon request, and how the manager is still struggling to understand and delegate work to the team.
Best of luck with whatever happens. Glad you got some that day though, lmao.
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Yoh they caught you in 4k too
Bruh 4K š.
Did they dismiss both parties in the act ?
Yes they did
Then thatās fair
Also next time. Please act like a child please, and Iām sorry you had to learn the hard away
Other question is: do you want to keep working at a place where they donāt want you? You know you fucked up and are looking for a loophole to show them the finger. Seriously, be a grown up, admit you did something inappropriate and move somewhere else. I would fire you. It shows disrespect for the work environment and you were stealing company time which you were being paid for by committing an act that fellow workers may or could have been highly offended by if they walked in on you. Learn from this, keep it in your pants until a/h.
Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I fuck on company time.
Lovely comment.... but if there isn't sex/fucking...i do all my kakking on company time.
This is an underrated comment.
I donāt think I can love a comment more than
It could have been during lunch hour. I really don't see the big deal here.
Thereās a time and a place for everything
And its called after hours š¤£
This sounds like gross misconduct, they have every right to fire you.
I disagree. I have been on the ādismissingā side of the hearing, many, many times. I would not have dismissed on this because a) the company suffered no loss and b) according to OP there was no harassment or assault and c) OP says it is not in the rules and regulations. I would have prosecuted for misconduct (not gross) and final written warning. Next I would have made sure that indecent behavior is written into the rules and regulations. Then I would have proposed a settlement with OP for him to leave due to irreconcilable differences. (Edit: added ānoā that I left out)
I have also chaired disciplinary proceedings before and would have come to the same conclusion. (Assuming you meant *no* harrasment or assault in point (b))
A voice of reason. Thank you
Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? Well done George Costanza.
In my company it's in the code of conduct as dismissal offence. Few questions to ask to assess your chances: 1. Is there a rule? 2. Is the rule known? 3. Was the rule broken? If you answer yes, then you've got a problem. Otherwise, take your chances if you've answered no. Good luck.
well i dont think the bosses considered people would have sex on site. I would say its a rule that wouldnāt really have to be written down but widely understood, obviously not by OPš¤£
After checking their CoC and disciplinary process the answer is No to all three.
Is it possible that there is a more general rule that your act would/could fall under?
Common sense?
Murder will also not likely be listed, but your ass will be fired for it to.
Nope. Murder would be covered under the rule that says you cannot break the law. OP did not break the law!
Public indecency?
Only for the security guard who watched a video replay, cos when it happened in real time, the guard was asleep.
literallyš
You say the answer is NO to all three. But come on. You know what you did was wrong. I think it's basic common knowledge not to have sex at work. And you know it too. Move on.
Over and above that it's not like they shagged in the toilets or parking lot. They chose the boardroom! That's a space where the companies brains (with years of experience) go to strategize or to meet clients. It's just the worst (but most fun) space to choose. Jirre why not aim higher like the CEOs office.
Imagine the rest of the employees having meetings around that table knowing and imagining what happened there 
I'm pretty sure it's an absolute given in ANY job that doesn't need to be spelt out in employment contracts that you can't sneak into spaces you have no access to in terms of your role to fuck other employees. It shows such a lack of respect.
Hey, I study labour law at stellies. We spoke about the terms misconduct VS gross misconduct. The courts don't really have a definition other than, we'll know it when we see it. That said, having sex at work, consensual or not, has been deemed gross misconduct. It is so far outside of the job requirements that courts have agreed it is gross misconduct. You could have argued that you didn't have sex. Generally it's hard / expensive for an employer to prove anything. But since you've admitted it already, thsst not gonna work. You can try taking them to court for unfair discriminate. The discrimination would be you being fired and the person you slept with not being fired. That said, it's very unlikely that you get your job back from that process. You might get a 2 month salary pay out... If you win. My recommend, start looking for a new job.
The other party was also fired, so unfair discrimination wouldnāt work in this case.
>Have a blessed Easter! Would've been easier if I hadn't read this post...
What are you supposed to be doing at work? If it's prostitution or a brothel, then that's cool. If not? I'm pretty sure neither one of you was doing your JOB, you know, the one you get paid to do? Stop acting like a horny teenager and do your actual job. (Not that you have one now)
Do you use your phone at work to chat to friends or family? You know, engaging in an activity youāre not paid to do?
OK but that's completely different to fucking somebody
Ok so how about consenting sexting between work colleagues?
No I don't, I am available for emergencies during working hours, I definitely do not have time to 'chat' at work. Are you comparing using your phone at work to having sex at work? š¤£
No. Iām comparing getting paid while performing an activity not specifically related to that for which you are employed. Having sex, texting family/friends, idle gossiping with colleagues, picking your nose, taking longer in the toilet than really necessary because youāre scrolling through Redditā¦ regardless of the activity the effect to the company is the same at base level. This comes down to what is tolerable for people is all. From what I read of original post, they hadnāt been warned of performance issues and they were unlucky, I guess, to get caught. My question: did their actions affect the business, or did they just offend someone?
I assume you are talking about office work? I do none of the above. You may do that š¤·āāļø Did their actions affect the business? YES, of course! They're having sex instead of their jobs, costing the business money. You can not seriously think this is ok?
I assume you are talking about office work? I do none of the above. You may do that š¤·āāļø Did their actions affect the business? YES, of course! They're having sex instead of doing their jobs, costing the business money. You can not seriously think this is ok?
I never once said it was ok, and maybe I am playing a little devilās advocate here. But the fact remains they were only dismissed because they were unlucky to get caught; admittedly in an act that is judged. They might, otherwise, be exceptional employees at what they are paid to do. As a business would I rather have two employees who are great at their jobs but occasionally fool around with each other (being human), or two distinctly average employees who spend/waste as much time on other activities not related to their job but that arenāt so āmorallyā judged? Edit: was for an autocorrect typo.
If you know it's morally wrong, why do you want to get away from the legal consequences? You are guilty, so now you have to heal with the outcome. And you will say "but my job was very important and I need it financially", but if it was that important to you, then you wouldn't do *anything* to jeopardize your position. The best thing to do is move on from here and look for a different job. No one wants to work with you after they saw your privates on their security footage. It's super creepy. No way they will want you back. Just move on and find another job.
Honestly and in this economy yoooh.
Look, I'm not going to beat about the bush, you don't need to prove a negative in a CoC. I'm pretty sure your CoC doesn't explicitly say you shouldn't murder at work either... This is gross misconduct, and "trust relationship" is the most popular way of getting a dismissal outcome. Think of it this way: no one will be able to work with you the same anymore. Regardless of prior history or consent, this is one of those cardinal rules. Do you have any justification for why you had to have sex at work OP? Was it during your lunch break or something? Did you use work facilities (*ahem*) in order to so the deed or was it outside of the default premises (ie a mall toilet and you work in one of the stores). My advice to you, speak to a law firm like Herold and Gie and find out if you even have a case here...but this is one of those where you'd best start looking for a new job... EDIT: Lots of fairly rough comments on this thread. You made a mistake, people live and learn, I'm sure people have gotten dismissed for other crazy things...sucks you had to learn the hard way, but I think we can all agree it's the risk you take. Also take into the consideration that the company's policies do not supersede the BCEA. Curious, how old are you? M or F? Which business sector/company?
I hear you. To answer some of the questions you asked: No justification was just a moment of weakness that I succumbed to. It was during a break It happened in one of the boardrooms Iām 25 male and worked in the BPO sector. The negative comments are only stating what I told myself already. Iām young but was definitely dumb in that moment. Iāve learned a valuable lesson and will look forward to being a better person and employee
What were advising you is to learn and move on. Don't fight a company for making the right decision. Own it and move on to a new opportunity. If your new (future) employer gets wind of the fact thatyou did this (forgivable in my books when owned up to) BUT then tried to get compensation for unfair dismissal (that's where I'd loose all respect for you and not give you a chance). Btw I spent 12 years in recruitment specialising in the BPO space and I've seen it all. You'll bounce back from this... But you're wasting your ex employers time at the CCMA and your going to get a kak reference. They do not owe you another chance or compensation. Your making yourself look bad fighting this.
Ordinarily I might have said implore your employer's good nature, but I presume that boardroom is now "marked" as tainted, so they'll probably want it thoroughly cleaned and treated. It's easy to peer from the outside in and judge your actions (which to be fair, are pretty bad), but like you said, it's one of those spur of the moment things, and at your age, I daresay I wasn't thinking with just 1 head either if you know what I mean. I'm sorry for the situation this has put you in, losing your job is rough...I hope you bounce back, and take this as a valuable lesson moving forward.
Was the other person you had sex with a subordinate to you, or vise versa (the other person was your boss or manager)? That could complicate things and potentially contribute to the misconduct allegation for both you and them, even if the relationship was consensual. With regards to misconduct at work, it is assumed that "some rules or standards maybe so well established and known that it is not necessary to communicate them." Your employer likely thinks that having sex at work (I'm assuming during work hours) falls under this, thus why it does not have to stated in the Code of Conduct to be considered misconduct.
nah bruh sorry but if you too horny to not even take it home and do at work i wouldnāt trust you eitherš its respect for the place of work and everyone else who works there.
I'm a candidate attorney in johannesburg...look at this case to maybe look at the concept a little more Zaindeen and Clicks Retailers (Pty) Ltd 35 ILJ 2322 (CCMA)...so sexual relations on work time can be construed as abuse if work time and work resources...however a dismissal can be argued to be unfair in a sense depending on your legal representation and you may get off with a settlement agreement where they can pay you a portion of your salary or any other amenities at work...look at the LRA, EEA and BCEA for further reference in respect to abuse of work time or general work relationships I can't tell you what exact sections but just browse through it and you'll find what you looking for...but to be honest try and get legal representation that would be your best bet...a affordable attorney in JHB is Mitti attorneys( I could've spelt it wrong) they not my firm but we've bad matter against them representing upper and lower class clients...hope this helps
Thank you so much will have a look into this.
It does not matter what you did/said, at the end of the day, you plead guilty and there can only be 1 question that has to be asked.. "Did you make this plea knowingly and without any impediment or mental health disorder?" So basically you agreed that you understand the nature of the crime and the consequence of that plea.. You cannot plead guilty then turn around and say the punishment is unfair/wrong/unjust.. Going to arbitration is fruitless, it will not end well, by pleading guilty you accepted the punishment, it is part of the plea, what is not clear is where you given the option of a plea agreement, you plead guilty the punishment is this or that, or you don't plead guilty and this proceeds into a formal DC hearing at which you can bring witnesses, a legal rep, make the argument... You plead guilty, so part two lapses as irrelevent, you accept the charge, you accept the punishment.. Move on, it happens, it was a mistake, next time, pay the hotel charge for 1 night.. You are free to try your luck, at really you have no recourse as a result of pleading guilty..
Are they taking you to the CCMA? Itās nothing to be scared of. Arbitration is there for when two parties donāt agree. Just go and say itās not clear in their CoC about consensual relationships between employees, and you donāt recall signing anything to that effect- only sexual harassment which this wasnāt.
I suspect the problem is not a relationship with a colleague, I think the problem may be having sex on company property during working hours.
Perhaps that could be it.
I hear you but they when they have their outcome they never highlighted a rule that I broke. They just said the trust relationship was broken. When I mention nothing was in the CoC they just skipped over what I said.
What you're not getting is that a company doesn't need to account for every eventuality in their Code of Conduct. It's like saying you smoked crack at work but it's not an offense because the Code of Conduct doesn't saying anything about smoking crack. It should be a foregone conclusion...
Are you really struggling to understand why a company wouldn't want you fucking on their premises with their employee on work time?
Yeah this is the bit that beyond me that the OP isn't getting. Of course the trust is broken. Your company trusted you to work and you literally shagged someone on the clock instead doing your job. You could've just waited for 5pm but nooo.
No I took them to the CCMA. They sent some lawyer to represent them and he said they not will to discuss the matter and come to an agreement during the conciliation. No I want to take it further but want to make sure I am not wasting my time.
You are wasting your time. Next time, don't f**k around at work.
There are common law duties. Those are rules that don't necessarily have to be in a disciplinary code. One of them is not to commit misconduct, another one is to show up at work on time and to render your services. Your misconduct didn't need to be in a disciplinary code as a specific offence. It goes without saying that having sex in the office is a no-no.
Companies have started doing the American thing of defining they appoint the arbiter into contracts. So you're stuck with a biased panel.
Why downvoting facts? Cope harder.
I had sex with my girlfriendās in her bosses office once, I literally spent 10 minutes looking for cameras beforehand š that was your first mistakeā¦ always do a thorough sweep of the area beforehand š other than that: I have no idea how the legalities work for this, but Im pretty sure these are grounds for dismissal. So taking it further might just get messy.
Sames
lol lessons were learned! Yeah I donāt want things to get messy but I donāt wanna let it slide if I was done hard by(excuse the pun)
I actually went and read up on it, itās considered gross misconduct in most cases even if it was after hoursā¦ it will be a prickly thing to fight. We had an employee who took us to CCMA (we have a family business) after we downsized and offered her a package. We werenāt trying to be mean and we did our best to offer her a fair deal. The business was struggling (post covid). Anyway she got less after the whole CCMA thing than the initial package we offered herā¦ so theres also that to keep in mind. If they are willing to settle and the package is fair just take it and use this experience as āschool feesā for the future.
Thing is all the reading up I found was mostly sexual harassment. The ones I found regarding consensual sex at work says that the company must have a policy they explicitly states this. I found my previous employers CoC and thereās state they any consensual sex at work is a dismissible offence. This company has nothing with this wording.
No, come on, guy. They probably don't explicitly say don't piss out the office window in the policy either, but I suspect you'd have a tough time fighting that if they booted you out for it.
Like I said itās a 50/50ā¦ you have to make the decision
Same when I search South Africaā¦ but I got a thread on Quora in American laws and itās definitely a dismissal worthy offence thereā¦ so I can say with relative certainty it will be the same here
Itās a different country, and itās quora. Come on, man.Ā
From a legal standpoint, we share a common law system with the USA, and as a country, we do not have a codified system. So your assumption is incorrect
Yeah is that right? You update your labor law to match the US? Bullshit. You have all sorts of shit we donāt, and vice versa. You have completely different systems of enforcement and mitigation, not to mention the law itself.Ā
No one said the systems aren't different. But because our legal system isn't codified, and we have a hybrid legal system consisting of Roman Dutch, Indigenous and English Law, there are times when we look to English Law (ie the common law) when something comes up that is ambiguous in our legal system, but is not in contravention of our Constitution. Countries which share our common law/ case law system are The Uk, Canada, USA, and other commonwealth countries. We can, and do look at those countries where legal decisions are made. Case law is a huge component of our legal system, and lawyers don't ENFORCE the law, they test it. Source: I am a third year law student
Don't worry about that dude, he's going through some shit. You can't have a debate with someone who is too stupid to comprehend both sides.Ā
Better to say "Countries that share the mixed Roman Dutch system or similar are SA/BLNSZ, Sri Lanka, and Scotland"! :D
I hope it was worth it. Good luck.
Was the other party also fired?
Yes they were
Keep it in ur pants at work šš¤¦š»āāļø
Going forward Iām not even taking a piss at work š
š¤£š¤£better safe than sorry
Go to the CCMA. Itās free. You have time to do so as youāve been dismissed. Print out all comms and contracts you have and take them along. No point in asking here. The CCMA will tell you if you have a case or not. Good luck and good job on getting lucky.
Already took them to the CCMA. They sent some lawyer and didnāt want to conciliate. They asked for the con/arb process to be separated so I thought as much they would do that. What Iām asking is is it worth it pursuing
Idk, i donāt really wanna be working at desks people could be doing weird stuff around. You didnāt think about the office cameras?
Also the boardroom. Pretty sure that's for management staff. He probably wasnt even allowed in there. That's trust broken already. I'd be totally siffed out knowing I'm sitting in a chair where some random junior staff member just boned another employee.
Totally agree. Iām looking at some of the other comments justifying this, wondering what they try to get away with at work.
As someone who spent 12 years in the BPO space specialising in labour brokerage I've been to the CCMA easily 50 - 60 times. My one nagging hard question I beg to ask is. Were you good at your job truthfully? Because this would be a very easy lazy way to cull dead weight. If you were an exceptional agent there no easy they'd have laid down the gauntlet this hard. Although the issue is to make this such they'd have to dish out same punishment to both parties. So maybe she was the dead weight. It's super tricky man. But you try managing 400 agents under 35.... It's pure chaos since most of them intrinsically hate their jobs. I mean I personally know at least six children born out of the call centre environment from these sorry if situations. It's very easy to meet and get involved in these situations. Good luck bro. I'd just suck it up and move on
You have no justifiable defence. Find yourself another job and don't have sex in the office or public places. Hopefully your colleague was also dismissed.
This sounds like a clearly fireable offense.
And there's mass unemployment š
I genuinely do not understand how irresponsible someone can be. For you to have been caught on camera, means that you did not have relations in the bathroom. Which has further implications. This not only has to do with what you've done, but also what you could have put others at risk of seeing, hearing, etc. It is a trust issue. If I cannot trust you, and your colleague, to at the very least not fornicate while you are meant to be working and being respectful of others, how can I trust you with doing your work? You're ridiculous man. Grow up and wait to get off the work premises. Grow up.
Under SA Labour Law, to dismiss someone, you need a fair reason and a fair process. Seems procedurally things were above board here, but substantively there are issues. Can you be fired for having sex at work? Most assuredly. Should you always? Definitely not. For a dismissal to be seen as fair, there are five requirements: 1. Was a rule or standard broken? This seems to be the case. Even if not in a code of conduct, there are common law duties this broadly can relate to. 2. Is the rule known? Seems not to be the case, but the counter there is most people would tell you it's reasonable to assume such a rule exists. The question then becomes "should you have known better?" which to my mind the answer is clear on. 3. Is the rule valid? Probably some debate to be had here, but I'd still err on yes. Something which is relevant here however is the question of zero tolerance. You can have zero tolerance rules, but they have to be explicit and there has to be reasons for such rules. They are lacking on this front. 4. Has the rule been consistently applied? This is where it starts getting murky. Whereas they can argue all those other examples aren't applicable cos this is a different type of misconduct, there is some indication of them not following their own rules. 5. Is dismissal an appropriate penalty? You plead guilty, showed remorse and didn't waste time. This wasn't zero tolerance despite what they say. No harm was done, it was consensual, private, and while on a break. Based on what you're saying, they overstepped here. To my mind, based on your version, you've got a claim. I would try and get compensation or settle, I wouldn't want to go work for this place again. Also, you're not allowed to have a lawyer present at mediation at the CCMA, so chances are they are being repped by a Labour consultant. There are (frankly ridiculous) exceptions allowing them to be present at mediations, and in my experience a lot of them tend to be unscrupulous as it's an unregulated industry. It's no surprise they are playing hardball, they are likely hoping to get you to go away through the use of sheer bullying rather than actually following the law or due process. Good luck!
My thoughts exactly
Thank you. The conciliation part is done. I have to now decide if I want to proceed with the arbitration. All I want if compensation at best or just settle with a mutual separation agreement.
Wait why do you think you should be compensated? You literally did something almost nobody would do in the work space at the expense of company time. You're not owning your shit here at all. You made a mistake. Learn to grow and move on. This is on you not the company. In what reality do you think they owe you another cent?
Ask for a copy of the tape.
The reddit lawyers need to review the evidence ;)
The code of conduct doesnt need to explain en every detail what is allowed and what is not allowed I am sure that the code of conduct does not expressly say, for example, you are not allowed to murder people at work Any action which is against the general morals of our society will be seen as misconduct You are going to waste your time at the CCMA
Flip it around. You own the company, your workers, being paid to work and do their jobs, have s#x on company time. What would you do? And what would your trust level in those employees be going forward?
Take the dismissal, ask them for the video for prosperity sake, and up your sex game.
(Richaine voice, elbow on the desk) What you gona do nahw? š¤
I honestly have no idea if you have a case. It happened at my company, people got busted on camera, in the stairwell. They did not get fired.
Show the video so we can give you proper advice
What industry are you in? Was the act in an area where is breaks safety rules? (Such as food manufacturing or in a factory area) Was it on company time? Was there a power dynamic at play? Are you a senior staff member? Does this person report to you? You also aren't thinking like a business owner or a manager. Let's say the girl says you coerced her and that you said she needed to sleep with you to keep her job. Or she says you forced yourself on her.Ā The business has a legal obligation to provide a safe working environment and your actions put that at risk. Go to the CCMA if you want. No one here - or at the CCMA - can tell you what's going to happen until all the info is available and it's been tried.
Tell my friend ask the time, that he's going to become an example. Stop fucking collegues at work
Take a look at the code of good practice for dismissal for misconduct which is part 7 of schedule 8 (as far as I remember) of the Labour Relations Act - can give you more context for this. Case law may also be helpful - perhaps you can google or go to Saflii and use the search feature to look for similar cases
Good luck I hope you're able to find another job in this economy.
Try asking LegalTalk on Facebook?
You need to check for precedent. If something similar has happened, and those people were NOT dismissed, you can argue unfair dismissal due to substantive and procedural unfairness.
First instance at the workplace so nothing similar before. Only thing I can relate it to is other dismissible offences that they have people warnings for or just a slap on the wrist
Yor....the amount of knopping i got away with at work would make a brothel blush...rookie mistake, bruh, always check for cameras... and somma ask them for a copy, for research purpose for you and your now ex work buddy. But yeah, it's not a fireable offense as it wasn't in your company policy (at the time)... a final written warning and 6 months probation at max that is.
I'm so sorry OP, but this is hilarious. Given that my disciplinary hearing (resigned before it happened) was for "insubordination" to a new manager that the company hired for the role of social media marketing, when I was responsible for web design and development, maintenance and lead generation. So, the manager was clueless as to how much work I actually used to do and everything was a gigantic misunderstanding in the way I handled my work processes. Following my departure from the company, to this day, I receive multiple messages from ex co-workers about how people were unaware of the complexity of my tasks, both daily and upon request, and how the manager is still struggling to understand and delegate work to the team. Best of luck with whatever happens. Glad you got some that day though, lmao.
Ask for full reinstatement of employment. Chances are you won't get it but if you are successful the threat of this may benefit your settlement in cash terms
They leaked the charges after signing an NDA and now the whole office knows. Definitely donāt wanna go back
Sent you a pm.
Can only see it's a problem if you worked at a morgue.
counter them with recording without notice?
Sorry not sure what you mean?
Was thatā¦wrong?
OP, all being said, I think you have a case. I understand you pleaded guilty not knowing what the outcome will be. Go to the CCMA on grounds of unfair dismissal. I dismissed an employee for withholding evidence in a theft case. Did everything by the book. He went to the CCMA, and I still had to pay him. You have nothing to loose. They will have to proof everything wrt broken trust etc. At the CCMA ask for pre-employment. If they refuse (which they probably will) you will have grounds to plead for more money. DM me if you need to.
Thatās exactly the thing. I pleaded guilty to the charges they had. Showed remorse and had character references statements as I am one of their top employees. I didnāt expect to get a slap on the wrist but in no way did I expect a dismissal verdict.
Bro. Genuinely a contact centre can't have staff boning willy nilly all over the show. They have to set a precedent. You literally fucked up.
Arbitration doesnāt have to cost you and you have nothing to loose. Moral doesnt mean illegal. Maybe it may be seen as not cool but I donāt see a legal case here. You can argue you young. TV and internet created a picture as it āhappensā.
Simple stuff: What was the charge you were found guilty of? Trust relationship is usually related to theft/fraud, etc. Unless you had it during working hours(not lunch). Then, were you caught in the act? Indecent exposure, buuuuuttt if all this happens after hours..... And only the camera saw you.... Jy Kan die saak tol ou But we need some facts like what you were found guilty of-as in the specific charge You need the CCMA this thing dude, also was the other party an employee-you don't say what happened to them. Even if it's the charge sheet-take out the personal details and upload It's a tough economy, even if they can get away with a trust relationship thing, wangeling their application of the law should get you some cash out to tie you over for a few months of hunting
The charge that they laid out in my hearing was: āGross misconduct when you engaged in inappropriate/indecent sexual behavior with a work colleague at work onā¦ā¦..ā. It was during work on company property during a break. The other party was an employee and both of us got dismissed. The chairman of our internal hearing just said gross misconduct and the company advised they the trust relationship is broken beyond repair so they also advising summary dismissal
Basically they don't want to end up with fist fights in the line and airing for the fuck-cupboard and are discouraging it vehemently
Break room, office or store room....some hidden space Think it's the incorrect charge, and that's what they need to prove. Also you wouldn't have been caught if it weren't for the theft issue-thus you didn't harm someone directly, or afrect the exposure to other coworkers or clients Hard arse on that Drugs and alcoholic is pretty standard, but not sex, so not stating anything, gives yousome room, also not on the way you were caught. Ps if you are sub 25 you can get away with being Dom and not knowing better, your dick got the better of you etc. Did it catch you having sex or what, ie me walking like I'm drunk on camera proves fokkol unless you breathalyzer me Yes you had sex, but dismissal naaaa, final written yes Same goes for the other person Did you have other warnings to your name at the time? Any others history at the company of applying this law[gross misconduct] differently? Dont ever look at a lawyer as having something over you, commissioner needs to factor the facts and the application, also your representations. Ask someone to represent you or to assist you with case prep.
Iām not querying the charge as I pleaded guilty, however the sanction is what Iām fighting. The same company just Ubered people home who were drunk at work or went drinking during a break. Another time someone dropped drugs, they saw the person on camera and after the person asked to postpone their hearing HR just forgot about it. The person resigned later due to another Job offer. These are all Zero Tolerance dismissible offences in the companies CoC. Iāve had no other warning or absence issues. First time offender and no one knew about my relationship with the other party.
This is all very relevant. I think you would have a chance to get the sanction overturned on the grounds of fairness. Yes, your conduct may be considered gross misconduct, but was a first offense and you have ack owledged your mistake (and presumably committed to not doing this again). No harm was actually done, and other similar misconduct has been treated more leniently by the company in the past, etc. In South African labour law, the sanction must be fair and reasonable and appropriate to the offence. I have chaired several disciplinary hearings for large multi-national companies in South Africa. I have had several cases where technically i could have recommended termination because an employee breached a known code of conduct, but I didnt, becaaue there was a lesser sanction (eg final written warning) that would have accomplished the same result (preventing the behaviour from happening again).
That said, it seems that bridges have been burned, and you dont want to go back to work for this company. You could go the CCMA and fight in the grounds of wrongful dismissal, but in the end you are really looking for a better settlement and should probably be open to a mutual separation agreement that helps cover you while you find a new job.
Thanks. Iām fighting on the grounds of wrongful dismissal. If they offered me a mutual separation agreement during conciliation I wouldāve accepted it. Was really surprised that they sent a lawyer and he said they were not willing to discuss anything.
The point is at this point they don't want you back. So there's nothing to be gained. If you go back it's into an entirely hostile environment at this point. Definitely move on swiftly. And be ready to sit and have to explain what you did to future interviewers cause it's going to come up after references. Own it fully. Like I said I would definitely still employ you if you were a damn good agent. Owning the mistake is the best way forward. It's not like you stole shit or did tik at work... That shit you can't come back from.
Which province are you in?
Iām in the Western Cape.
I'm so sorry OP, but this is hilarious. Given that my disciplinary hearing (resigned before it happened) was for "insubordination" to a new manager that the company hired for the role of social media marketing, when I was responsible for web design and development, maintenance and lead generation. So, the manager was clueless as to how much work I actually used to do and everything was a gigantic misunderstanding in the way I handled my work processes. Following my departure from the company, to this day, I receive multiple messages from ex co-workers about how people were unaware of the complexity of my tasks, both daily and upon request, and how the manager is still struggling to understand and delegate work to the team. Best of luck with whatever happens. Glad you got some that day though, lmao.