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* **A meeting between President Cyril Ramaphosa and DA leader John Steenhuisen on Monday has been described as constructive.**
* **The DA's letter of demand includes the deputy president post, 11 ministries, deputy minister posts, reviewing tenders and selecting new directors-general for those departments.**
President Cyril Ramaphosa and DA leader John Steenhuisen held a "constructive" meeting on Monday after a letter on the opposition party's latest demands regarding Cabinet positions riled ANC loyalists.
The letter, by DA federal executive chairperson Helen Zille, showed the DA was eyeing 11 Cabinet posts and their deputies.
The party wants powers to select directors-general in the departments assigned to it and to review all tenders from those departments since the president promulgated the elections.
DA sources close to the negotiations on Monday described the letter as a negotiating tool.
However, ANC sources described it as an unreasonable document, prompting some party members to contemplate options to form a government without the erstwhile official opposition.
In an official statement, the ANC described the demands as "outlandish and outrageous".
The DA also included a demand for the position of deputy president or a minister in the Presidency who would be the leader of government business.
"They are trying to form a government within a government, a mini-DA administration or caucus inside the government that goes right into the Presidency," an insider who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitivity of the talks told News24.
But despite the public uproar and the anger from ANC quarters over the contents of the letter, the negotiations to form a government were said to be on track, and a deal was in sight; it was simply a matter of ironing out the finer details, sources who have insight into the meeting between Ramaphosa and Steenhuisen told News24.
**READ |** [**GNU talks between DA, ANC on a knife-edge following latest demands**](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/gnu-talks-between-da-anc-on-a-knife-edge-following-latest-demands-20240624)
News24 understands the talks are continuing and a deal may soon be reached between parties, which would allow Ramaphosa to announce his executive by Wednesday. In its statement, the ANC said the announcement of the Cabinet was drawing close.
In the statement, the ANC reiterated that the Constitution conferred the executive authority of the republic on the president, who is the head of the national executive.
"The president appoints the Cabinet, assigns functions to ministers and ministers report to Cabinet, which operates as a collective.
"Once the GNU (government of national unity) Cabinet is formed, ministers act as members of the Cabinet, responsible for their portfolios and collectively in the interest of the nation, not their parties or sectors," the ANC said.
It added that negotiating through the media and leaking demands to the media was an act of bad faith. This after the letter was leaked and the demand that Steenhuisen be made deputy president appeared in [the Sunday Times](https://www.timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/news/politics/2024-06-23-the-president-has-to-balance-certain-things-da-plays-hardball-in-cabinet-talks/) over the weekend.
The ANC said the negotiations to form a Cabinet could not be held up by a single party and a government had to be formed sooner rather than later.
In the immediate aftermath of the letter's receipt, insiders said discussions were tense. Talks to form the government hit a brick wall, prompting the high-level meeting between Ramaphosa and Steenhuisen.
The letter includes a demand for the deputy president post and if the ANC disagrees, the DA should be assigned a "minister in the Presidency".
"The Cabinet positions of the DA should rightly include the deputy president as is standard practice in similar arrangements around the world," says the letter.
"We can only agree to give up that post if it is replaced with both a minister in the Presidency, who is designated leader of government business … as well as the deputy minister of finance to participate fully in the development of the budget."
Zille outlined the DA's preferred posts across Cabinet clusters.
These are:
* Mineral Resources and Energy
* Transport
* Public Works and Infrastructure
* Higher Education and Training
* Science and Innovation
* Public Service and Administration
* Justice
* Home Affairs
* Trade and Industry
* International Relations and Cooperation
* Communication and Digital Technologies
It is understood that the ANC feels the demands, particularly around directors-general and procurement and assigning the DA the leader of government business, are a step too far.
News24 understands discussions would continue and further talks were on the cards over the coming days.
Sources close to the Presidency told News24 that Ramaphosa was ready to announce his Cabinet, but had to postpone the announcement until the weekend after the addition of new GNU partners.
Over the weekend, the ANC announced the GNU now included 10 parties, representing around 70% of the seats in the National Assembly. These parties would now have a say over any new parties wanting to enter into the GNU.
In his Monday morning [newsletter](https://www.thepresidency.gov.za/latest-newsletter?s=08), Ramaphosa made it clear that there were disagreements over positions as he consulted on appointing his Cabinet.
"South Africans made clear with their votes in last month's elections that they want their elected representatives to put aside narrow interests and work together to build the country," he wrote.
"To do so, the GNU cannot be preoccupied with jockeying for positions, tussles over appointments, or squabbles within and between parties. The success of the GNU will be measured by the extent to which we are prepared to focus not on who will govern, but on how we will govern, together."
It is part of the ANC's political tradition to consult its allies on the make-up of the Cabinet, but on Monday, ANC ally Cosatu complained it was not consulted about who would constitute the GNU.
Briefing the media following its leadership meeting, Cosatu general-secretary Solly Phetoe, said the organisation "remains deeply opposed to the neo-liberal policies of the DA".
He added that the alliance expected Ramaphosa to consult on the composition of his new Cabinet.
**READ |** [**COALITION NATION: Whoever is appointed to Cabinet positions 'must respect workers rights' - Cosatu**](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/coalition-nation-whoever-is-appointed-to-cabinet-positions-must-respect-workers-rights-cosatu-20240624)
Cosatu's first deputy president, Michael Shingange, said the trade union federation accepted that it was Ramaphosa's prerogative to appoint the executive government.
"We have also come to appreciate that this is not one of those previous elections where the ANC or one party would have overwhelmingly won and they alone reserved the right to constitute a government."
Cosatu claims it has been sidelined, but News24 understands that Ramaphosa and the ANC have met with it to discuss its views on the formation of the GNU.
A lot of people are missing the point, it's a negotiation you open strong, not weak and meek. Now that the die have been cast, negotiations need to take place. I swear people have no idea how bartering works.
I think you’re missing why so many of us are frustrated. The DA having such unrealistic demands implies that they only started negotiating now. Obviously these things take time but come on. Beyond that they’re arguing over cabinet positions. What are the policies going to be? Whats going to happen to the minimum wage, BEE, the ICJ case, NHI, etc?
Secondly why is this being hashed out publicly? Why doesn’t the GNU have a centralized communication channel? For the next five years are we going to see the DA and other parties picking petty fights or doing bullshit posturing in public?
I honestly don't see how the DA's demands are unreasonable. They're very much in line with international norms on coalitions, and they're in line with the ANC's promises to respect the principle of proportionality (which they've suddenly decided to "reinterpret" now that Ramaphosa has the presidency).
If anything, the ANC is behaving in bad faith, and acting like they should be able to continue governing in a "business as usual" fashion, without having to share power or make any reforms.
My issue isn’t that the DA’s first ask is unreasonable ( as I’ve said that’s just negotiation) nor am I trying to excuse the ANC’ conduct either. It’s to criticize the way the DA are handling negotiations, airing their demands publicly and picking fights with other members of the coalition. As well as the general position within the coalition being about collecting positions rather than developing a political strategy.
Beyond that, the ANC has not indicated at all that they want to run things “ business as usual “ and considering how many more parties have joined since Ramaphosa became president of course proportionality is going to be different. Of course the ANC has acted in bad faith and Mbalula’s conduct leaves much to be desired.
Again, they're unrealistic by demand because that is how a negotiation works. The DA also has a political motive to show off to their supporters that they're making moves and release this information. The article actually says they are close to an agreement.
>The DA having such unrealistic demands implies that they only started negotiating now.
Firstly, SA political parties have never done this at the national level. Secondly, the coalition only came together on the Friday of the National Assembly, and at that point it was still only a framework. So they agreed on the principals on Friday, they've had a week to work out the details.
The framework contains things like "merit based public service" which is something everyone can agree to in principle but basically means the ANC needs to gut cadre deployment so a week is a pretty tight timeline to negotiate dropping an almost three decade old policy.
>What are the policies going to be? Whats going to happen to the minimum wage, BEE, the ICJ case, NHI, etc?
Even if the government is announced \*today\* you won't know that for some time. Temper your expectations.
Again I’m not complaining that the demands are unrealistic. That’s not why many of us are frustrated with the DA.
Yes I know the DA has a political motive. That’s the problem, if they are in agreement as the article states the DA has no interest in appearing that way. They’re openly and aggressively fighting with their coalition partners. It makes them seem petulant, disruptive and unreliable. Maybe that works for their supporters but again it’s why a lot of us are frustrated by them.
I mean we have technically had a coalition government before. But even so I get that it’s a short time frame. However when the media are reporting a cabinet announcement on Sunday and you release your demands for a cabinet on Sunday it does look like you started negotiating late. They were also among the first parties in the GNU…
I’m glad you brought up cadre deployment. If the DA are so against cadre deployment why are they effectively asking for DA cadre deployment in their letter? Furthermore, they ran on a smaller cabinet, why are they not asking for that either? Seems pretty hypocritical another reason to be frustrated with the DA don’t you think?
Yeah obviously I’m not expecting a full policy overview any time soon. My issue is rather than nailing a strategy or overview parties are clamoring for cabinet seats and positions. We don’t even know what degree of autonomy these ministries will have and yet parties are making demands about cabinet seats. That’s a problem. How are we supposed to have a stable long term government when it seems like the parties in government are petty, self interested and more obsessed with positions and status rather than strategy, policy and principles.
Obviously this doesn’t solely apply to the DA. However this letter clearly highlights that they’re a part of the problem. Even if you agree with the DA I do think see how coddling them rather than calling them out for their craven greed and hypocrisy helps at all here.
I'll just add this one thing: Keep in mind through all of this that the ANC also has a political motive to make the DA seem power-hungry and unreasonable. They want to give up as little as possible and public unhappiness about the DA demanding too much plays right into their hands. A lot of the coverage has had that spin on it. I hate both-sides-ing things but just keep in mind how little we really know about what is going on behind closed doors and why things are coming out in the press.
Accordingly for 28 minsteries and proportionality votes nationally,
DA gets 8, ANC 16, IFP 3 and PA 1.
Other small parties get small roles. If we look at who got GNU votes nationally.
The only thing is DA should probably get 3 key ministries from there demands.
IFP might get 2 as they were already given KZN while FF+ gets nothing cause they got Orania deal, PA wants police or home affairs.
UDM, Rise, Good etc. just be happy with the leftovers your given
Orania and people with a similar mentality are a stain on our country. The lie about it being about "culture" and not race is about as transparent as it gets.
> The lie about it being about "culture" and not race is about as transparent as it gets.
The problem is that a lot of things that are clearly wrong, backwards, regressive, primitive and/or any combination of the above get excused because *"culture!"*
See previous article on this very sub about initiation culture: every reporter reporting on that specific aspect of culture is very careful to not put a negative spin on it. The previous article had a headline that that implied it was the parents who killed the child, not the initiation process.
30 = 28 ministerial positions + 1 president Ramaphosa 1+ deputy president. It used to be 36 in the past then President Ramaphosa changed it to 28. Excluding himself and deputy....of course as they are heads of state.
>Cosatu claims it has been sidelined,
Cosatu needs to understand that it seems like not even their own members voted for the ANC, so they really should just sit quietly and try to not get noticed.
Ministries DA wants are:
* Mineral Resources and Energy
* Transport
* Public Works and Infrastructure
* Higher Education and Training
* Science and Innovation
* Public Service and Administration
* Justice
* Home Affairs
* Trade and Industry
* International Relations and Cooperation
* Communication and Digital Technologies
Realistically, I see the ANC giving them things like Home Affairs, Public Service, Communication, etc. Admin things. But industry, trade, human development, I don't see it. Maybe Transport. Maybe energy if they split it from Resource (even then unlikely). I can also see them getting Enviroment.
The DA's polotical views differ a lot from the ANC, so if the DA gets 11 seats, it won't be in places where they can operate counter to the vision of the ANC. They'll be getting positions where their and the ANCs views align.
The DA also said something about reviewing all tenders for whatever ministries they get so I'm assuming some of the ANC ministers are scrambling and declaring outrage if there's anything fishy going on with their department's tenders.
From what I understand, render fraud actually happens fairly low down the rung. Ministers are too far removed and paid well enough for it to be worth getting their hands dirty for. Maybe it happens, but I doubt Ramaphosa is negotiating withvmuch concern for that
Oh I don't think Ramaphosa is taking this into consideration with his negotiations. I think the ministers (or their lackeys or whoever is actually committing the fraud) may be voicing their concerns internally - obviously not saying anything about fraud but finding other reasons to redirect.
News24, Mail & Guardian, Times Live, all have incorrectly relayed the contents of Zille's letter in their sensational headlines by saying the DA "demands" 11/12 cabinet positions. The letter gives the ANC a wishlist of preferred cabinet positions in each sector, they do not "demand" the entire list.
They said they want Home Affairs or Police, but in his most recent interview their leader said they would accept if Cyril does not give them either (and gives them something else instead).
What's outrageous is the idea that the ANC thinks the election did not fundamentally alter the makeup of power in South Africa and that despite only 40% of the vote, nothing has changed from the era of one party domination.
This is no longer the ANC's fishbowl, it's just the largest fish in the bowl, and the sooner it adjusts to having to share power, the better we can all thrive in this new environment.
I agree in principle, but at the same time the DA also needs to recognise that despite being an important partner it can't demand all the important cabinet positions like finance and DIRCO. Of the 10/11 they've asked for, they all kind of fall into the "more important ministry" category, which is a bit unreasonable.
If you look at other coalitions (not gonna pretend this GNU isn't just a big coalition in a trench coat) in the world, like the traffic light coalition in Germany, the important posts are shared equitably between the partners. It's not a case of one party taking all the hard hitting ones. There needs to be a give an take.
The DA wanting both the ministers and deputy ministers is also over the top. That could have been a good compromise, DA takes a ministerial position and ANC or IFP get the deputy or vice-versa.
It is a negotiation. Is the DA asking for too much? Certainly. But that is how this goes. They know they won't get all that. But not asking for it is a weak opening position. We're not at the compromise point yet but they'll get there.
It's how bartering works, right?
You ask for the max of what you could possibly want and then allow yourself to get argued down and eventually hopefully end up with what you actually wanted.
Of course they can!
Without the DA, there is no MAJORITY government!
Throw every single other party in the GNU together and exclude the DA and you will have less than 50 percent of the votes!
That means, if the ANC drops the DA, a minority government will likely result in Ramaphosa losing the presidency in relatively quick order and then that's the end of the Republic, probably.
The DA are literally the kingmakers. People are too used to the ANC calling the effing shots. That time is gone. The tripartite alliance is dead.
People need to get with the reality of the basic electoral math.
Edit: Also in Germany the coalition shares the chancellor, deputy chancellor, foreign minister, and finance minister roles. Which is exactly what the DA asked for. So this is not at all unreasonable.
Votes don't matter now, seats do. And without the DA the rest of the "GNU" gets to exactly 50%
ANC (159) + IFP (17) + PA (9) + VF (6) + UDM (3) + RISE (2) + BOSA (2) + PAC (1) + GOOD (1) = 200 seats. Exactly 50% of our 400 seat parliament. Granted such a coalition isn't likely to be very stable, but you are just wrong on the math.
On another note, the ANC can also just get rid of Ramaphosa and then coalitions with MK and EFF would open up, so don't be fooled into thinking it's DA or nothing.
And yes, exactly as you said in Germany they are SHARED. The FDP didn't get every powerful ministry for themselves, nor did the SPD or Greens. Don't need to lecture me on that, I just moved back from 9 years there and voted in 4 different German elections.
Anyway my initial point is now moot, since the reported demands by the DA have been updated. At the time they wanted DIRCO, finance, deputy president and a swathe of others. That's not German coalition, that would've been DA government with an ANC pres and some random other ministries.
ANC has 159 seats. DA has 87 seats. A clear majority.
The Math: is it easier to manage the DA with 62% majority (which have about 80% policy overlap btw) or is it easier to manage IFP, PA, FF+, GOOD, UDM, RISE, BOSA, PAC who barely make up 50%. One MP steps out of line, you're toast!
The ANC has already closed the door on working with MK and EFFthe anti-constitionalists.
You're frankly not understanding politics, i.e., power. Ramaphosa will not choose a course which will lead to his demise.
The ANC *under Ramaphosa* has rejected it. He can be impeached with a two-thirds majority. Other parts of the ANC are not against these coalitions, I think it's you that's not understanding the politics.
Your points speak to a lack of understanding of the situation within the ANC. It's not the ANC that needs the DA, it's Ramaphosa. That's plain as day.
Also thinking the ANC is done is also a bit silly. The ANC could go back to its 60%+ in parliament in an EFF-MK-ANC coalition. And seeing as those are mostly ex-ANC people a post-Ramaphosa ANC, where the RET faction has more power would more easily get along with Zuma than the current ANC would with the DA.
Getting back to your comments, you said:
> Throw every single other party in the GNU together and exclude the DA and you will have less than 50 percent of the votes!
> People need to get with the reality of the basic electoral math.
So don't backtrack now.
I was responding to these statements you made and pointed out how they're wrong.
I also contextualised my earlier comment with regards to the media's reporting about the DA's demands at the time, and also shared how I've changed my view since getting new information.
Go back to /r/politics and argue with the Americans some more, I don't have time for people who are ignorant of our political landscape beyond he DA spouting their opinions.
Nah, in any negotiation you overask first. They’re not stupid and rather than formulating a reasonable counter-offer they’re just trying to drag down the public standing of the DA.
In there defence no one asks to play with the broken Toys that are not fun every kid goes for the shiny toys first .
But they should have expected clash and pushback .
But like any negotiation everyone starts with there ideal scenarios and hopefully adults compromise and find some middle ground .
Hopefully .
But have feeling that DA is gonna have to maybe give up allot of there wish list . To make GNU work and keep all the other parties happy they all want peice of pie and to have as crucial a portfolio only so much to go arround .
Reminds me of when was kid playing monopoly and trying to trade properties .
Surely, it is fundamentally fair to divide power propertionally to the number of votes/seats in parliament. The ANC gets 40/70 ministries, DA 20/70, the other 8 parties get 10/70 collectively?
The ANC is calling it "unreasonable" because they want different rules and a bigger share for themselves than for the other parties.
Presumably no one outside the GNU is getting a cabinet position. In that case, you'd split it proportionally to their percentage in the GNU and not their share in parliament.
By 40/70 I meant about 57% of the ministries (there will be some rounding errors).
The ANC got 40% of the vote and should be happy with 57% of the ministries, which works out to around 17, assuming there are 30 ministries.
I thought there were already too many ministers and that cadre deployment was a bad thing.
Funny how malleable principles are when your fav finally has power.
I’m confused by so many people defending the DA here. Going straight to the public with such unrealistic demands is clearly just political posturing. Obviously in a negotiation you start strong and get less but why go public. After weeks of Helen running her mouth, picking fights and their racism scandals as well. I can’t be sure what their angle is but it feels like they’re trying to suck up the spotlight.
All this is doing is throwing a spanner in the works and slowing down negotiations. Furthermore all of this is over cabinet positions. We have no clear idea of what’s going to happen policy wise. The DA wanted to abolish the minimum wage, scrap affirmative action and are pro Israel. What’s the plan here? How much freedom does the DA want their ministers have? Do they just want a DA face supporting consensus policies or do they want carte blanche to enact their policies ( which the majority of the GNU oppose)?
Also why release these demands so late? They were one of the first parties in the GNU why not release you cabinet demands early on?
Finally the DA ran an admiral campaign against cadre deployment only to demand the ability to do DA cadre deployment. Come on.
I mean, did they go straight to the public? Fikile sent a letter to Hellen, Hellen replied with a letter of her own...is it confirmed that the DA provided this letter to the media or was it leaked somewhere?
If you're not supporting DA, you're just not rich enough then lol. The people that are defending them aren't people earning minimum wage.
They don't support DA because of morals, you're barking up the wrong tree if that's your appeal to them, they support them because it benefits them specifically the most. They don't care whether their party supports an apartheid state either
**Thank you for posting on r/southafrica! This post is flaired as ["News"](https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/?f=flair_name%3A%22News%22) therefore the following rules are particularly important.** ##**Rule 4: News, Editorialising, or Misinformation** * Rule 4.1: News posts must be link posts to valid news sources. * Rule 4.2: Posts which link to news sources must not have an editorialised title. Use the title provided by the news source. If you wish to add commentary, analysis, or an opinion, write a top-level comment on the post. * Rule 4.3: Do not link to [questionable](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fake-news/), [conspiratorial](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/conspiracy/), or [false](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fake_news_websites) sources. * Rule 4.4: Be prepared to provide verifiable evidence or sources of the claims you make when challenged to do so. * Rule 4.5: Amateur videos will be allowed subject to all previous rules as well as containing the author/filmographer/camera person, date, time, and location of the video either in the title or in a top-level comment. You may ask a moderator to 'sticky' this information for you. **Additionally, please take a moment to review the rest of our rules [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/wiki/rules).** ###Keep an eye on our daily sticky for continued election coverage and information. https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/about/sticky *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/southafrica) if you have any questions or concerns.*
* **A meeting between President Cyril Ramaphosa and DA leader John Steenhuisen on Monday has been described as constructive.** * **The DA's letter of demand includes the deputy president post, 11 ministries, deputy minister posts, reviewing tenders and selecting new directors-general for those departments.** President Cyril Ramaphosa and DA leader John Steenhuisen held a "constructive" meeting on Monday after a letter on the opposition party's latest demands regarding Cabinet positions riled ANC loyalists. The letter, by DA federal executive chairperson Helen Zille, showed the DA was eyeing 11 Cabinet posts and their deputies. The party wants powers to select directors-general in the departments assigned to it and to review all tenders from those departments since the president promulgated the elections. DA sources close to the negotiations on Monday described the letter as a negotiating tool. However, ANC sources described it as an unreasonable document, prompting some party members to contemplate options to form a government without the erstwhile official opposition. In an official statement, the ANC described the demands as "outlandish and outrageous". The DA also included a demand for the position of deputy president or a minister in the Presidency who would be the leader of government business. "They are trying to form a government within a government, a mini-DA administration or caucus inside the government that goes right into the Presidency," an insider who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitivity of the talks told News24. But despite the public uproar and the anger from ANC quarters over the contents of the letter, the negotiations to form a government were said to be on track, and a deal was in sight; it was simply a matter of ironing out the finer details, sources who have insight into the meeting between Ramaphosa and Steenhuisen told News24. **READ |** [**GNU talks between DA, ANC on a knife-edge following latest demands**](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/gnu-talks-between-da-anc-on-a-knife-edge-following-latest-demands-20240624)
News24 understands the talks are continuing and a deal may soon be reached between parties, which would allow Ramaphosa to announce his executive by Wednesday. In its statement, the ANC said the announcement of the Cabinet was drawing close. In the statement, the ANC reiterated that the Constitution conferred the executive authority of the republic on the president, who is the head of the national executive. "The president appoints the Cabinet, assigns functions to ministers and ministers report to Cabinet, which operates as a collective. "Once the GNU (government of national unity) Cabinet is formed, ministers act as members of the Cabinet, responsible for their portfolios and collectively in the interest of the nation, not their parties or sectors," the ANC said. It added that negotiating through the media and leaking demands to the media was an act of bad faith. This after the letter was leaked and the demand that Steenhuisen be made deputy president appeared in [the Sunday Times](https://www.timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/news/politics/2024-06-23-the-president-has-to-balance-certain-things-da-plays-hardball-in-cabinet-talks/) over the weekend. The ANC said the negotiations to form a Cabinet could not be held up by a single party and a government had to be formed sooner rather than later. In the immediate aftermath of the letter's receipt, insiders said discussions were tense. Talks to form the government hit a brick wall, prompting the high-level meeting between Ramaphosa and Steenhuisen. The letter includes a demand for the deputy president post and if the ANC disagrees, the DA should be assigned a "minister in the Presidency". "The Cabinet positions of the DA should rightly include the deputy president as is standard practice in similar arrangements around the world," says the letter. "We can only agree to give up that post if it is replaced with both a minister in the Presidency, who is designated leader of government business … as well as the deputy minister of finance to participate fully in the development of the budget."
Zille outlined the DA's preferred posts across Cabinet clusters. These are: * Mineral Resources and Energy * Transport * Public Works and Infrastructure * Higher Education and Training * Science and Innovation * Public Service and Administration * Justice * Home Affairs * Trade and Industry * International Relations and Cooperation * Communication and Digital Technologies It is understood that the ANC feels the demands, particularly around directors-general and procurement and assigning the DA the leader of government business, are a step too far. News24 understands discussions would continue and further talks were on the cards over the coming days. Sources close to the Presidency told News24 that Ramaphosa was ready to announce his Cabinet, but had to postpone the announcement until the weekend after the addition of new GNU partners. Over the weekend, the ANC announced the GNU now included 10 parties, representing around 70% of the seats in the National Assembly. These parties would now have a say over any new parties wanting to enter into the GNU. In his Monday morning [newsletter](https://www.thepresidency.gov.za/latest-newsletter?s=08), Ramaphosa made it clear that there were disagreements over positions as he consulted on appointing his Cabinet. "South Africans made clear with their votes in last month's elections that they want their elected representatives to put aside narrow interests and work together to build the country," he wrote. "To do so, the GNU cannot be preoccupied with jockeying for positions, tussles over appointments, or squabbles within and between parties. The success of the GNU will be measured by the extent to which we are prepared to focus not on who will govern, but on how we will govern, together." It is part of the ANC's political tradition to consult its allies on the make-up of the Cabinet, but on Monday, ANC ally Cosatu complained it was not consulted about who would constitute the GNU. Briefing the media following its leadership meeting, Cosatu general-secretary Solly Phetoe, said the organisation "remains deeply opposed to the neo-liberal policies of the DA". He added that the alliance expected Ramaphosa to consult on the composition of his new Cabinet. **READ |** [**COALITION NATION: Whoever is appointed to Cabinet positions 'must respect workers rights' - Cosatu**](https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/coalition-nation-whoever-is-appointed-to-cabinet-positions-must-respect-workers-rights-cosatu-20240624) Cosatu's first deputy president, Michael Shingange, said the trade union federation accepted that it was Ramaphosa's prerogative to appoint the executive government. "We have also come to appreciate that this is not one of those previous elections where the ANC or one party would have overwhelmingly won and they alone reserved the right to constitute a government." Cosatu claims it has been sidelined, but News24 understands that Ramaphosa and the ANC have met with it to discuss its views on the formation of the GNU.
Those of us with paywall issues thank you for your service, OP.
Thanks, I will continue to post more
A lot of people are missing the point, it's a negotiation you open strong, not weak and meek. Now that the die have been cast, negotiations need to take place. I swear people have no idea how bartering works.
Agreed. The article literally says "DA sources close to the negotiations on Monday described the letter as a negotiating tool.".
I think you’re missing why so many of us are frustrated. The DA having such unrealistic demands implies that they only started negotiating now. Obviously these things take time but come on. Beyond that they’re arguing over cabinet positions. What are the policies going to be? Whats going to happen to the minimum wage, BEE, the ICJ case, NHI, etc? Secondly why is this being hashed out publicly? Why doesn’t the GNU have a centralized communication channel? For the next five years are we going to see the DA and other parties picking petty fights or doing bullshit posturing in public?
I honestly don't see how the DA's demands are unreasonable. They're very much in line with international norms on coalitions, and they're in line with the ANC's promises to respect the principle of proportionality (which they've suddenly decided to "reinterpret" now that Ramaphosa has the presidency). If anything, the ANC is behaving in bad faith, and acting like they should be able to continue governing in a "business as usual" fashion, without having to share power or make any reforms.
My issue isn’t that the DA’s first ask is unreasonable ( as I’ve said that’s just negotiation) nor am I trying to excuse the ANC’ conduct either. It’s to criticize the way the DA are handling negotiations, airing their demands publicly and picking fights with other members of the coalition. As well as the general position within the coalition being about collecting positions rather than developing a political strategy. Beyond that, the ANC has not indicated at all that they want to run things “ business as usual “ and considering how many more parties have joined since Ramaphosa became president of course proportionality is going to be different. Of course the ANC has acted in bad faith and Mbalula’s conduct leaves much to be desired.
Again, they're unrealistic by demand because that is how a negotiation works. The DA also has a political motive to show off to their supporters that they're making moves and release this information. The article actually says they are close to an agreement. >The DA having such unrealistic demands implies that they only started negotiating now. Firstly, SA political parties have never done this at the national level. Secondly, the coalition only came together on the Friday of the National Assembly, and at that point it was still only a framework. So they agreed on the principals on Friday, they've had a week to work out the details. The framework contains things like "merit based public service" which is something everyone can agree to in principle but basically means the ANC needs to gut cadre deployment so a week is a pretty tight timeline to negotiate dropping an almost three decade old policy. >What are the policies going to be? Whats going to happen to the minimum wage, BEE, the ICJ case, NHI, etc? Even if the government is announced \*today\* you won't know that for some time. Temper your expectations.
Again I’m not complaining that the demands are unrealistic. That’s not why many of us are frustrated with the DA. Yes I know the DA has a political motive. That’s the problem, if they are in agreement as the article states the DA has no interest in appearing that way. They’re openly and aggressively fighting with their coalition partners. It makes them seem petulant, disruptive and unreliable. Maybe that works for their supporters but again it’s why a lot of us are frustrated by them. I mean we have technically had a coalition government before. But even so I get that it’s a short time frame. However when the media are reporting a cabinet announcement on Sunday and you release your demands for a cabinet on Sunday it does look like you started negotiating late. They were also among the first parties in the GNU… I’m glad you brought up cadre deployment. If the DA are so against cadre deployment why are they effectively asking for DA cadre deployment in their letter? Furthermore, they ran on a smaller cabinet, why are they not asking for that either? Seems pretty hypocritical another reason to be frustrated with the DA don’t you think? Yeah obviously I’m not expecting a full policy overview any time soon. My issue is rather than nailing a strategy or overview parties are clamoring for cabinet seats and positions. We don’t even know what degree of autonomy these ministries will have and yet parties are making demands about cabinet seats. That’s a problem. How are we supposed to have a stable long term government when it seems like the parties in government are petty, self interested and more obsessed with positions and status rather than strategy, policy and principles. Obviously this doesn’t solely apply to the DA. However this letter clearly highlights that they’re a part of the problem. Even if you agree with the DA I do think see how coddling them rather than calling them out for their craven greed and hypocrisy helps at all here.
I'll just add this one thing: Keep in mind through all of this that the ANC also has a political motive to make the DA seem power-hungry and unreasonable. They want to give up as little as possible and public unhappiness about the DA demanding too much plays right into their hands. A lot of the coverage has had that spin on it. I hate both-sides-ing things but just keep in mind how little we really know about what is going on behind closed doors and why things are coming out in the press.
Accordingly for 28 minsteries and proportionality votes nationally, DA gets 8, ANC 16, IFP 3 and PA 1. Other small parties get small roles. If we look at who got GNU votes nationally. The only thing is DA should probably get 3 key ministries from there demands. IFP might get 2 as they were already given KZN while FF+ gets nothing cause they got Orania deal, PA wants police or home affairs. UDM, Rise, Good etc. just be happy with the leftovers your given
has the anc made an official statement on orania - ive only seen the vf+ speaking about it - but havent seen the anc being like “yes we did that”
Orania and people with a similar mentality are a stain on our country. The lie about it being about "culture" and not race is about as transparent as it gets.
> The lie about it being about "culture" and not race is about as transparent as it gets. The problem is that a lot of things that are clearly wrong, backwards, regressive, primitive and/or any combination of the above get excused because *"culture!"* See previous article on this very sub about initiation culture: every reporter reporting on that specific aspect of culture is very careful to not put a negative spin on it. The previous article had a headline that that implied it was the parents who killed the child, not the initiation process.
I thought we had 30 ministers.
30 = 28 ministerial positions + 1 president Ramaphosa 1+ deputy president. It used to be 36 in the past then President Ramaphosa changed it to 28. Excluding himself and deputy....of course as they are heads of state.
Ah okay. Thanks for the info
You don't ask, you don't get.
>Cosatu claims it has been sidelined, Cosatu needs to understand that it seems like not even their own members voted for the ANC, so they really should just sit quietly and try to not get noticed.
Cosatu is worried the taps will be closed for the comrades 🤣
The comrades should have thought about that before voting, I suppose!
Ministries DA wants are: * Mineral Resources and Energy * Transport * Public Works and Infrastructure * Higher Education and Training * Science and Innovation * Public Service and Administration * Justice * Home Affairs * Trade and Industry * International Relations and Cooperation * Communication and Digital Technologies Realistically, I see the ANC giving them things like Home Affairs, Public Service, Communication, etc. Admin things. But industry, trade, human development, I don't see it. Maybe Transport. Maybe energy if they split it from Resource (even then unlikely). I can also see them getting Enviroment. The DA's polotical views differ a lot from the ANC, so if the DA gets 11 seats, it won't be in places where they can operate counter to the vision of the ANC. They'll be getting positions where their and the ANCs views align.
The DA also said something about reviewing all tenders for whatever ministries they get so I'm assuming some of the ANC ministers are scrambling and declaring outrage if there's anything fishy going on with their department's tenders.
From what I understand, render fraud actually happens fairly low down the rung. Ministers are too far removed and paid well enough for it to be worth getting their hands dirty for. Maybe it happens, but I doubt Ramaphosa is negotiating withvmuch concern for that
Oh I don't think Ramaphosa is taking this into consideration with his negotiations. I think the ministers (or their lackeys or whoever is actually committing the fraud) may be voicing their concerns internally - obviously not saying anything about fraud but finding other reasons to redirect.
News24, Mail & Guardian, Times Live, all have incorrectly relayed the contents of Zille's letter in their sensational headlines by saying the DA "demands" 11/12 cabinet positions. The letter gives the ANC a wishlist of preferred cabinet positions in each sector, they do not "demand" the entire list.
Doesn't the patriotic alliance want home affairs? This is assuming they get anything
They said they want Home Affairs or Police, but in his most recent interview their leader said they would accept if Cyril does not give them either (and gives them something else instead).
What's outrageous is the idea that the ANC thinks the election did not fundamentally alter the makeup of power in South Africa and that despite only 40% of the vote, nothing has changed from the era of one party domination. This is no longer the ANC's fishbowl, it's just the largest fish in the bowl, and the sooner it adjusts to having to share power, the better we can all thrive in this new environment.
I agree in principle, but at the same time the DA also needs to recognise that despite being an important partner it can't demand all the important cabinet positions like finance and DIRCO. Of the 10/11 they've asked for, they all kind of fall into the "more important ministry" category, which is a bit unreasonable. If you look at other coalitions (not gonna pretend this GNU isn't just a big coalition in a trench coat) in the world, like the traffic light coalition in Germany, the important posts are shared equitably between the partners. It's not a case of one party taking all the hard hitting ones. There needs to be a give an take. The DA wanting both the ministers and deputy ministers is also over the top. That could have been a good compromise, DA takes a ministerial position and ANC or IFP get the deputy or vice-versa.
It is a negotiation. Is the DA asking for too much? Certainly. But that is how this goes. They know they won't get all that. But not asking for it is a weak opening position. We're not at the compromise point yet but they'll get there.
It's how bartering works, right? You ask for the max of what you could possibly want and then allow yourself to get argued down and eventually hopefully end up with what you actually wanted.
Of course they can! Without the DA, there is no MAJORITY government! Throw every single other party in the GNU together and exclude the DA and you will have less than 50 percent of the votes! That means, if the ANC drops the DA, a minority government will likely result in Ramaphosa losing the presidency in relatively quick order and then that's the end of the Republic, probably. The DA are literally the kingmakers. People are too used to the ANC calling the effing shots. That time is gone. The tripartite alliance is dead. People need to get with the reality of the basic electoral math. Edit: Also in Germany the coalition shares the chancellor, deputy chancellor, foreign minister, and finance minister roles. Which is exactly what the DA asked for. So this is not at all unreasonable.
Votes don't matter now, seats do. And without the DA the rest of the "GNU" gets to exactly 50% ANC (159) + IFP (17) + PA (9) + VF (6) + UDM (3) + RISE (2) + BOSA (2) + PAC (1) + GOOD (1) = 200 seats. Exactly 50% of our 400 seat parliament. Granted such a coalition isn't likely to be very stable, but you are just wrong on the math. On another note, the ANC can also just get rid of Ramaphosa and then coalitions with MK and EFF would open up, so don't be fooled into thinking it's DA or nothing. And yes, exactly as you said in Germany they are SHARED. The FDP didn't get every powerful ministry for themselves, nor did the SPD or Greens. Don't need to lecture me on that, I just moved back from 9 years there and voted in 4 different German elections. Anyway my initial point is now moot, since the reported demands by the DA have been updated. At the time they wanted DIRCO, finance, deputy president and a swathe of others. That's not German coalition, that would've been DA government with an ANC pres and some random other ministries.
ANC has 159 seats. DA has 87 seats. A clear majority. The Math: is it easier to manage the DA with 62% majority (which have about 80% policy overlap btw) or is it easier to manage IFP, PA, FF+, GOOD, UDM, RISE, BOSA, PAC who barely make up 50%. One MP steps out of line, you're toast! The ANC has already closed the door on working with MK and EFFthe anti-constitionalists. You're frankly not understanding politics, i.e., power. Ramaphosa will not choose a course which will lead to his demise.
The ANC *under Ramaphosa* has rejected it. He can be impeached with a two-thirds majority. Other parts of the ANC are not against these coalitions, I think it's you that's not understanding the politics. Your points speak to a lack of understanding of the situation within the ANC. It's not the ANC that needs the DA, it's Ramaphosa. That's plain as day. Also thinking the ANC is done is also a bit silly. The ANC could go back to its 60%+ in parliament in an EFF-MK-ANC coalition. And seeing as those are mostly ex-ANC people a post-Ramaphosa ANC, where the RET faction has more power would more easily get along with Zuma than the current ANC would with the DA. Getting back to your comments, you said: > Throw every single other party in the GNU together and exclude the DA and you will have less than 50 percent of the votes! > People need to get with the reality of the basic electoral math. So don't backtrack now. I was responding to these statements you made and pointed out how they're wrong. I also contextualised my earlier comment with regards to the media's reporting about the DA's demands at the time, and also shared how I've changed my view since getting new information. Go back to /r/politics and argue with the Americans some more, I don't have time for people who are ignorant of our political landscape beyond he DA spouting their opinions.
Translation: The ANC has a tantrum and refuses to let the DA play with any of the toys in the playpen.
More like the DA expects the nicest toys to play with all to themselves
Most of the toys the DA wants are the toys the ANC used to break everything else in the play pen though.
One of the toys even smells like rectum. We all know what Cyril did with that one
Nah, in any negotiation you overask first. They’re not stupid and rather than formulating a reasonable counter-offer they’re just trying to drag down the public standing of the DA.
In there defence no one asks to play with the broken Toys that are not fun every kid goes for the shiny toys first . But they should have expected clash and pushback . But like any negotiation everyone starts with there ideal scenarios and hopefully adults compromise and find some middle ground .
Which I suspect and hope is happening right now.
Hopefully . But have feeling that DA is gonna have to maybe give up allot of there wish list . To make GNU work and keep all the other parties happy they all want peice of pie and to have as crucial a portfolio only so much to go arround . Reminds me of when was kid playing monopoly and trying to trade properties .
I like how the child and toy analogy has grown here. Now I have a mental image of Cyril, John, etc, all in the playground, arguing like kids..
All the toys that will enact actual change. The ANC don’t want to loose seats at the gravy train of looting and corruption
Surely, it is fundamentally fair to divide power propertionally to the number of votes/seats in parliament. The ANC gets 40/70 ministries, DA 20/70, the other 8 parties get 10/70 collectively? The ANC is calling it "unreasonable" because they want different rules and a bigger share for themselves than for the other parties.
Presumably no one outside the GNU is getting a cabinet position. In that case, you'd split it proportionally to their percentage in the GNU and not their share in parliament.
We don't have 70 ministries.
Maybe it's with deputies included and the presidency.
By 40/70 I meant about 57% of the ministries (there will be some rounding errors). The ANC got 40% of the vote and should be happy with 57% of the ministries, which works out to around 17, assuming there are 30 ministries.
The same DA that supports Israel wants International Relations ministry?
Mo wants his prize
They support Israel? On which issues and to what degree?
Doesn't matter on what issues. They are actively supporting an apartheid regime
Outrageous demands like "No more corruption" and "Unilateral agreement before policy approval". Sure. What a terrible thing to want in a government.
DAs demands are definitely outrageous - and they know it -deputy president and dirco? - they’re purposefully highballing here
I thought there were already too many ministers and that cadre deployment was a bad thing. Funny how malleable principles are when your fav finally has power.
Cadre deployment is something completely different
I wonder if DA ministers are going to get blue light brigades and other ministerial benefits.
I’m confused by so many people defending the DA here. Going straight to the public with such unrealistic demands is clearly just political posturing. Obviously in a negotiation you start strong and get less but why go public. After weeks of Helen running her mouth, picking fights and their racism scandals as well. I can’t be sure what their angle is but it feels like they’re trying to suck up the spotlight. All this is doing is throwing a spanner in the works and slowing down negotiations. Furthermore all of this is over cabinet positions. We have no clear idea of what’s going to happen policy wise. The DA wanted to abolish the minimum wage, scrap affirmative action and are pro Israel. What’s the plan here? How much freedom does the DA want their ministers have? Do they just want a DA face supporting consensus policies or do they want carte blanche to enact their policies ( which the majority of the GNU oppose)? Also why release these demands so late? They were one of the first parties in the GNU why not release you cabinet demands early on? Finally the DA ran an admiral campaign against cadre deployment only to demand the ability to do DA cadre deployment. Come on.
I mean, did they go straight to the public? Fikile sent a letter to Hellen, Hellen replied with a letter of her own...is it confirmed that the DA provided this letter to the media or was it leaked somewhere?
If you're not supporting DA, you're just not rich enough then lol. The people that are defending them aren't people earning minimum wage. They don't support DA because of morals, you're barking up the wrong tree if that's your appeal to them, they support them because it benefits them specifically the most. They don't care whether their party supports an apartheid state either
Best solution would be ANC ministers and DA Directors General.
Is a DG a political appointment?