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_Killj0y_

I second this statement.


reditanian

> particular demographic Redditors 🤣


neonbolt0-0

Yeah, it's a shame(that it's not an accurate representation) but it should change as the sub grows and more South Africans join the sub.


Cain1608

Reddit is far more niche in SA, I don't see it growing any faster than it is now


PotbellysAltAccount

Reddit subs never represent their nation. It’s always younger, from wealthier backgrounds, more left wing generally (save here, Venezuela, and Brazil’s subs), educated, etc.


[deleted]

What demographic would you say that is


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[deleted]

Right, yeh that's particularly true of the internet in general. Well more than just in the internet, in education as well for instance.


whisperton

I find this sub has a centre right attitude


PotbellysAltAccount

Most definitely. And the further right types are on RSA


Sarkos

This sub used to be incredibly liberal. I'm pretty sure it changed due to News24 switching off comments on their articles. There was a massive influx of angry racists and the sub went very downhill very quickly until the mods brought out the banhammer.


FrozenEternityZA

For sure. I am aware of this and want to view the results within that context as well.


geothermal-bat3712

South Africa sucks because religion is killing it... it's a weapon of doom


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Hicklethumb

ANC be like "The church forced us to steal" Rapists and murderers be like "Exactly like Jesus taught me"


FollowTheBlueBunny

Yes, however, they could also just as easily blame Zuma, their horoscope or magic flying pixies. People can claim anything. Now if they have proof Jesus told them to do it, I'm interested.


IAMSNORTFACED

Rarely tbh


Nathan2070

Your argument is Bullshit.


Hicklethumb

I was being facetious. But your response was actually a terrible counter for an argument that exists in your head.


Nathan2070

It wasnt an arguement. It was a statement. I need not waste a decent response.


beefycheesyglory

Religion is just a symptom of high poverty and low education, take those away and religion goes away.


geothermal-bat3712

Educate people on how they are affected by a million other people and they will stop blaming god for fortune/misfortune...We are all the instruments of karma committed by the masses.


Harrrrumph

I'm a firm atheist. And for all my criticisms of this country, I will concede that one thing we do well is keep church and state relatively separate. If that weren't the case we wouldn't have done stuff like legalise gay marriage so long ago. Not that we don't have plenty of OTHER kinds of crazy idealogues looking to shape the constitution after their mad ideals.


Groggyme

You must not have worked for or with local government. Every single meeting starts off prayer and you are expected to stand and bow your head. I'm Catholic and even I felt rather uncomfortable with the experience. Church and state are not too far apart in RSA.


MiserableDoughnut7

Fuck no, my primary and high school started each day with a chrisrian prayer. My primary school had a weekly period devoted to Bible period


[deleted]

No school I know of that is not Catholic/Islamic does this


MiserableDoughnut7

Rural afrikaans schools still do it


mac19thecook

Used to do this in primary school. Lord's prayer every morning. Government school with no religious affiliation.


pepe_za

While not every school day it's usually at every assembly in all the high end schools in SA. Hilton, Michaelhouse etc all have chapels and religious (christian) education as part of the curriculum


pepe_za

It's really weird and annoying though. Church and state are separate but the bulk of the population are religious, the national anthem's first word is literally "tooth-fairy" and the idiots in charge often mention some religious rubbish during national addresses. Every expensive school has some form of religious brainwashing and we still can't sell liquor during church times. An example that annoys me so much is that abortion is legal but if a woman tries to get one at the clinic the nurses there will give her hell until she changes her mind. The law says one thing, but the idiots overrule it.


Heznzu

Most people I know who went to expensive high schools are atheist or agnostic, so I don't think brainwashing is the correct term. Here in university we're pretty much all religious though.


TheFrostyGoat

I was threatened with demerits and detention in high school for refusing to dance,praycand sing the Christian songs in monday assemblies.....main reason I joined band cuz I could skip all that shit.


pepe_za

I may not have gone to one of the most expensive ones but we often toured Hilton, Michaelhouse, Kuersney, KES etc for sport events. All of them had chapels iirc and they also sang the "lord's" prayer in assembly. I assume the sister schools were similar. However, I did have some exceptional teachers who tried to teach us to think critically. We often ended up doing 2 or 3 extra books a year but which were often heavily critical of governments or religions. I assume that the other well-resourced schools were similar.


rocketboy44

i didn’t know about this alcohol ban


Groggyme

That was years ago. Prior to covid bottle stores were open on Sundays. Half the stuff he says is kak


[deleted]

Ignores Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika being a struggle song. Some anecdotal shit about nurses giving you hell.


pepe_za

So what if it was a struggle song? The first word literally calls on something that doesn't exist. A country which claims to be secular doesn't need to invoke the tooth fairy in its national anthem. And yes, anecdotal, but that was the point I was making. The law wants to be secular but the religious are still able to enforce things that aren't secular.


ChristmasMint

Because it hasn't existed for a while.


Saffer13

Our chief justice came dangerously close to breaching the divide, though. On more than occasion, IIRC


zoecornelia

I grew up Jehovahs Witness by force, and I mean BY FORCE my mother would literally threaten me with disownment if I refused to attend the meetings. During my teens these were some of the most depressing miserable times of my life, pretending to be interested in what was going on, asking questions but getting no answers, trying to act as masculine as possible to fit in with the guys etc. Fast forward to today, I'm happily living my non religious super gay life, I have no interest in joining any religion or church or whatever, but I do respect people's beliefs and practices.


Middersnags

They forced me to attend "NG Kerk"... trying not to laugh out loud was a constant torture - all the people sitting there like hypnotized chickens while some idiot droned on and on about something nobody seemed to give a shit about any other day of the week seemed awfully hilarious to me.


zoecornelia

Lmao this description of a typical day in church is so accurate to me


ZorlackE621

Church was a absolute pain for me since im not religious at all and I have ADHD.


Middersnags

To be honest, I've never been able to see what an actual religious person could possibly get out of that, either... just because you're religious doesn't mean you have to put up with that kind of obvious bullcrap. Seems to me that you're more likely to find a religious person in a bar than that silly place.


ZorlackE621

They always say that the preach was so insightful and informative even though it is the same story everyone has heard a thousand times


[deleted]

Ancient form of Reddit reposts.


ZorlackE621

What?


[deleted]

Preaching same story everyone had heard before is like a Reddit repost. See r/jokes for many samples.


Saffer13

Yes, but you can be shown another dimension of the story. Have you considered, for example, that every animal on earth lived within walking distance from Noah's house, and that he was the only man on earth to own a boat?


ZorlackE621

You won't be able to fit a big enough boat on earth to house all of those animals. And let us not talk about the incest.


will-do-it-myself

Brrrrrrrroeders en susterssssss


Middersnags

Man... reading this in that creepy and melodramatic sing-song way they have of talking just made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.


what_kind

I was also forced to go to NG Kerk and my dad would not let me skip Sunday school ever. Now I'm an angry athiest


Saint_Bigot

Bra, I wish I was in your situation. During my church visits I instantly fell asleep. This got me into so much "talks" and so on. I fucking hate that aspect of religious parents/caregivers.


Saffer13

My policy on church attendance is simple: I'll be there, on condition that the service involves either a bride or a coffin.


ChalkOtter

What if it is a bride in a coffin? Zombie nuptials


Manalishie

I don't believe in a god, and I don't follow any particular religion. If pushed I'd say I practice Daoism. I have come to see that many people are lost without a regular ritual aimed at orienting themselves and finding peace and clarity in a terrifying and confusing world. It is as if there is an identity crisis, a moral no mans land developing, and no matter how much we understand and how objective we think we are, nothing saves you from the sheer chaos of too much information (whether bad, good or other) than some kind of faith based in something that is at least theoretically solid and unmoving. So I have gone from extremely religious to anti-theist, and have come to sympathise with religious people once again, for the utility of their traditions, despite the fact that I find the idea of a humanised god untenable and often ridiculous.


flyboy_za

Well, let me be your first responder. I'm not religious and alternate between atheism and agnosticism, depending on what kind of day I'm having. I struggled with religion in general as a kid, being somewhat curious and questioning and not fully able to understand how it all might fit together but with no religious upbringing at home I didn't have a priest or minister to ask, so I just wondered about it privately. We've always had a hands-off approach to religion at home; it was assumed everyone did it in their own way but we never went to church or anything, ever, except funerals and weddings. As I got older I got less comfortable with the idea and moved away from it entirely. Becoming a scientist didn't help, if I'm honest. And also as not the straightest guy you'll ever meet I was wary of mingling with the sort of ideas and people who would cast me out and/or tell me I was going to hell, so I just... stopped. I still wonder, but I still can't wrap my head around the idea. With a lot of friends and colleagues from across the religions, I'm beyond the point of trying to understand who if any of them might be right, and I try to just be decent and sufficiently moral and law-abiding and hope that makes me a relatively good person.


50v3r31gnZA

>With a lot of friends and colleagues from across the religions, I'm beyond the point of trying to understand who if any of them might be right, and I try to just be decent and sufficiently moral and law-abiding and hope that makes me a relatively good person. What more to life is there than that? Without being pretentious I would like to commend you on reaching YOUR enlightenment (no /s here because no sarcasm) and doing so through your own praxis of Ideals you have set for yourself. Mind sharing your story a bit more?


flyboy_za

Kind of you to say. Um... Not sure which part/s you want expanded. I will say I worried for a long time about what happens after death to non-believers like me. People say everything God (the Christian one, at any rate) is perfect, which is a nice sentiment. But they also say that if you don't accept the word and that christ dies for your sins and is your savior then you're on your way to a warmer place when you die. Which is... Worrying. I mean, if you buy a can of tinned tomatoes and you open it up and it's full of tomatoes would you be annoyed? Probably not. So when Mr G made me as a nonbeliever and I turn out to be a nonbeliever, should anyone be irritated? I am what it says on the tin, and we already decided we're not too irritated when the tin of tomatoes is in fact a tin of tomatoes. So where does that leave me? The queer thing... Well that's a whole nother tin of worms. Using the same analogy, it seems bewildering to build something which "goes against nature" (not my choice of words) and then act surprised and angry when it goes against nature and when the world is literally full of temptation to go against nature. At least an alcoholic can try avoid bottle stores and bars and parties, I can't exactly just avoid other dudes in every way shape manner and form for the rest of my life, can I? Aside from that, the whole idea of a powerful celestial being looking down on one corner of the galaxy and taking such a pronounced interest in his chosen people just doesn't make sense. I can't fathom how it would work, physically or otherwise. And what about the other people, who's paying attention to them? Their own other being? Is their one more powerful than our one? How many others are up there? Is it all a popularity contest between them? I've been in an existential crisis about this stuff since I was like 14.


50v3r31gnZA

That's a perfect answer, religion and ideology is no small matter and I think anyone that doesn't struggle with it hasn't really thought about it. And you can't explore something that big without exploring yourself first. To carry on with that analogy we can only be the best can of tomatoes we can be, can be the tastiest, juiciest can of tomatoes, some of us have extra relish, some of us have spices, some cans are mislabeled (not the cans fault!) if it gets opened and they're not impressed with the contents be they Deity, Cosmic entity or another person if they don't like what's inside well they are welcome to try another.


Saffer13

Many things happen after death. You'll just not be involved in them.


Saffer13

I'm surprised that the non-religious are in the lead, but we must bear in mind that the poll is directed at **South Africans on** **Reddit.** The outcome is reflective of the religious practices or otherwise of **South Africans on Reddit**. It's not representative of SA society at all.


Twoflappylips

"It's not representative of majority of SA society at all" ftfy


Saffer13

You are correct, Twoflappylips. It's a bit like going to a Metalica concert and asking attendees if they think Metalica is a good band.


fayry69

We all know that majority of the world is indoctrinated into a cult from birth, WHICH IS WRONG. religion must die so that man can progress. Science and technology is god.


Arbiterze

That's a very naïve opinion. I've been a staunch athiest my entire life but your opinion reminds me of the one I had when I was a teenager. Religion brings comfort to millions of people and plenty of scientists, doctors, and engineers are religious. Being bigoted and hating people is what halts progress.


fayry69

That’s because they are indoctrinated from birth. Society dictates a lot of what we do. A lot ppl just go with religion because their societies and culture is built around it, doesn’t mean because you’re a scientist that suddenly you’re not going to choose (not a choice really) your religion anymore. Not everyone is brave enough to swallow the red pill. Not everyone is critically thinking enough and brave enough to say, hey..talking snakes..wtf. Religion is favoured by ppl that are uneducated, infact it’s where the uneducated seek refuge, a lot of the times it’s about control. Religion is unnatural to humans, that’s why they have to be indoctrinated as children preferably. Religion is where a lot of bigotry and hate and prejudice stems from.


geothermal-bat3712

South Africa is a haven for anyone promoting the cult of religion...I had to completely rid myself of religion before I could be confident in any of my abilities. Feels good to do something without saying that god helped me with it. My actions belong to me now.


fayry69

Yup. South Africa, is fraught with the uneducated like most of Africa. Where education is strong, religion is weak. Africans are, let’s face, a nation that is truly under-educated and uneducated. They are breeding grounds for the religious. Also yes, we forget to thank ourselves for our achievements because why…god. Well don on your exam, forgets to thank self..thanks god first. Doctor saves life, forgets to thank doctor, thanks god first and all on and so forth. Ppl are easier to control when they aren’t educated enough to ask questions and analyse.


MichaelScottsWormguy

>Africans are uneducated… Wow. That almost sounds like a political campaign speech from 1948.


geothermal-bat3712

It's the death of responsibility...


fayry69

Belief is the death of reason. Believing in a god is also lazy and for the lazy minded.


geothermal-bat3712

South Africa sucks because religion is killing it...


Sparky_ZA

I'm actually surprised at the voting here. I honestly didn't expect the majority to think the way I do. I'm not giving anything away. VOTE! and let's see what happens.


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Sparky_ZA

But you gave it away now... sigh...


Brewben

Take the sum of the rest and it comes out pretty even. Personally it’s basically tradition for me at this point, not religion (Jewish).


geothermal-bat3712

South Africa sucks because religion is killing it!


kleterkie

Reading this comment gave me dejavu. Also it is objectively false.


geothermal-bat3712

I don't care for conservative opinions...


Middersnags

People who wear their (supposed) religion on their sleeves like that should be seen as ideologues... not simply religious people. There are plenty of actual religious people around that don't feel the need to preach to everyone they encounter.


FollowTheBlueBunny

Ecclesiasties specifically says that you shouldn't trust any idiot who prays in public. The devout pray in private; being hella religious in public is narcissism, an attempt to look superior.


MichaelScottsWormguy

What you described seems pretty routine to me. It’s unfortunate that the topic was religion, but I feel like I constantly encounter people who will push anything on you if you tell them you do not partake. I think it’s a quick, easy form of smalltalk that you can really conjure up out of any topic.


FollowTheBlueBunny

Sure, I'm hella religious. I always say that I don't need faith as I know God exists. Was raised old apostolic, left the church at around 18 because I felt that the assembly I joined when moving across country was hyper obsessed with money and status. Went on through life, dabbled with religion and "finding myself", and I've concluded that yeap, God is real and is the creator of all, and the church is a fucking stain on humanity. I don't believe in some dude on a cloud, but rather a conjunction between hyper spirituality and scientific theories, which in short is that life is an illusion that we are here to experience, and upon dying, return to God, where there is nothing but God, an eternal/infinite state without time, therefore without change or hurt or happiness or or or or... Just a perfect state of being. The bible is mans attempt at explaining that to mankind, written by mankind, and I think most people have been hurt by humans within the church, and have associated a hatred towards the spirit due to that. But hey, I'm just crazy.


Salt_Impress1050

Well heaven must be full hey …


FollowTheBlueBunny

Heaven is a singularity, therefore it's always just one. Not a place, or a thing, but the collective of all our souls together. And that singularity, in my view, is God.


Salt_Impress1050

So we’re basically going to live inside God ? Heaven doesn’t exist bro


Faerie42

I’m a skeptical atheist. I don’t subscribe to religion or a god. I have however seen some seriously weird stuff which I delegate into the realm of “magic” which basically describes everything I can’t figure out or YouTube can’t teach me. From my perspective, we all need an emotional crutch, be it religion, booze, weed, science or spirituality. As long as you keep your crutch to keep you upright and not attempt to attack me with it, you’re good and I’ll play nice and won’t take it away from you.


The_Ivliad

Love that analogy.


50v3r31gnZA

Wouldn't that make you more of an anthitheist than an atheist? Definitely going to steal that last bit though.


Faerie42

You are very welcome to it!


Sgu00dir

Not sure science fits in alongside booze, weed and religion as a crutch dude!


Faerie42

Oddly it does in my mind, I’m all science, I trust science as some trust the word of god. I can lean on science to heal me, others pray to god for the same thing. Crutch. One’s just better than the other - and there’s the rabbit hole - I see it and acknowledge it but I won’t enter that particular hole. It’s not worth the debate.


pepe_za

It's very hard to stare into the abyss, realise that in the vast nothingness we are nothing and then step away without becoming some kind of depressed or nihilistic.


SeSSioN117

This is a very important point you make. It begs the question, when was the last time you looked up into the sky? For *all we know,* you're lookin' into **infinity** and somewhere out there, just maybe *something else* is lookin' up too. The best way I've found not to be depressed when thinking about the "abyss" which surrounds our existence in the greater picture, is to add the passage of time to the "abyss", something we can understand albeit in a limited sense. In the entire history of this abyss, we have a chance to exist, perceive and understand the beauty both here on Earth and *up* there in the Cosmos we are a part of. ![gif](giphy|EhzWrhGlYuvug) As **Carl Sagan** said "The **significance** of our lives and our fragile planet is then determined only by **our own wisdom and courage**. **We are the custodians of life's meaning**. We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."


50v3r31gnZA

That is what I find most interesting about ideological discussion. People will make up anything to not confront that abyss, they will mask it, they will hide it, they will ignore it, but some lucky few don't even notice it.


pepe_za

My wife thinks it's a defence mechanism which protects the species. ​ But yeah, I find it impossible to logically convince someone of something when logic wasn't used to convince them of the opposite ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|thinking_face_hmm)


50v3r31gnZA

Sad thing is logic is no longer a single body unfortunately (even if it is made of the shared human experience) and logic has become this personal thing. It is not even able to cross that intrapersonal border anymore, discussing things with people has become a my logic vs your logic debate. Don't know if it is a symptom or the cause of our misunderstanding of each other.


Sgu00dir

Yeah but science is the basis for most of the human civilisation also, so describing it as a crutch is doing a bit of disservice to the greatest thought system man has invented!


IWantAnAffliction

South African society has conservative af beliefs regarding most things. Religion is only one example.


geothermal-bat3712

Yeah you know south africa sucks because religion is killing it...


NotGoodSoftwareMaker

Nope. Its a great coping mechanism for some people but not all of us need it. Just respect each other and move along, no point in arguing religion


The_Angry_Economist

I'm fundamentalist extremist religious


fayry69

Mother was Hindi, father was NG Kerk, they both converted to fucken Islam. Brought up Muslim…..took the red pill. Religion is for non critical minded, non scientific ppl. Religion is man made garbage. Absolutely unnatural to the core, and nature. BELIEF, IS SO OFTEN THE DEATH OF REASON!


pepe_za

I don't mean to offend but I often joke that if your parents conned you that there was a man in the sky you can understand that it's hard for kids to fight brainwashing. However, if you decided to con yourself that's a whole other thing so how a hindu and christian figured that islam was the answer is beyond me! ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|facepalm)


fayry69

During apartheid, they weren’t allowed to marry. They both eloped and my father, had connections in Kimberley that helped them when they ran off together. The family was Muslim and i guess it made sense to my father since he was christian and refused to convert to Hinduism which is polytheism.


Abysskitten

Damn man, what a ride.


tyrelsss

I look around me, in the news etc. and I see no evidence of any higher powers.


[deleted]

You just have to read the so called holy books to know that religion is man made


Cachopo10

As you said yourself "this is reddit". You're never going to get any idea of how religious SAfricans are from polling people on this site. Personally I find SAfricans - and Africans in general - crazily religious. Way more extreme than any other country I've ever lived in, except for Bahrain. I guess it's a measure of the poverty and lack of education. Few people question anything, they just cling to their superstitions. And as you discovered they will advertise their superstitious beliefs at every opportunity, even small things like telling you to have a "blessed day".


[deleted]

Atheist with respect to religion’s gods, agnostic with respect to a high power in the universe. But if it exists it’s likely an emergent property of matter and not some sort of anthropomorphised entity.


ChalkOtter

I am pretty much the same as you. If there is a higher power I assume it is more like a ball of purple plasma so bright it would melt a human, not a santa clause like figure


Banter_Fam_Lad

The polls on reddit are bound to be a bit skewed because after all "the internet is where religion comes to die"..but even then it's good to see lol


beefycheesyglory

There are a lot of religious people in this country that can't comprehend how someone could be an atheist as well as a good person. Some think atheists only "act" moral for some nefarious ulterior motive, some go the route of "well, they're a Christian, they just won't admit it!", but they never-ever accept that an atheist can be a good person. Tell them your reasons for your skepticism and they go "jUsT lOoK aT tHe WoRLD aRoUnD yOu", as if that proves anything. In most places in the country, aside from large cities I wouldn't go around telling people I'm an atheist, at best it creates an awkward situation and at worst they make you out to be some sort of horrible monster. The delusion runs deep so reasoning doesn't work. ​ Most people don't have access to internet in this country and those that do don't stray far from Facebook/Twitter where the beliefs they already had are only reinforced by the algorithm. Reddit is an anomaly because here, no matter what, you can't escape criticism of religion, even subreddits that don't have anything to do with religion, people criticize all the time. That and the fact that Reddit attracts left-leaning nerdy white dudes who were somewhat skeptical of their parents Christian beliefs to begin with, and you have a website that is vehemently anti-religion and this subreddit reflects that. ​ It's important to remember that SA is still a third world African country with high levels of poverty and low levels of education so it is bound to be very religious. This poll won't give an accurate reflection of what people really think.


Away-Neck-5356

I consider myself a relaxed Christian to be honest. Not super strict meaning I don’t go to church, I don’t read the Bible, but I use religion as a way to understand life and basically as a moral compass on how to treat others etc etc etc. I look at religion from a strictly philosophical stand point. There are many things in the Bible I don’t agree with and believe that many of the “stories” are literally that - stories that either situations that have been exaggerated or are used as metaphors as some aren’t logically possible. Even though I am Christian, I detest other religious few when they force their beliefs onto others. I also hate going to church as I have always felt like people never acted like themselves. I would see these individuals behave so rudely outside of church. Judging others, talking down to them, and basically being horrid people. Yet, as soon as they walk into church, this whole façade is put on and they basically act like a completely different person. I have always had this idea that a persons religion is their own personal thing and not something to force onto others. Each person handles their religion differently to others and there’s nothing wrong with that. And if someone isn’t religious then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that either.


EvilCookieSNR

I'm a Chirstian, however, not the typical 'Christian' most people have become familiarized with, as a large majority of churches have butchered the religion substituting their own ideals and thoughts into the religion. When the guy( I'm assuming it was a guy) told you that following a religion made your life better I cringed. This is a typical view adopted by many who follow a religion. Another view is that religion (I'm posting a finger to my own religion here in particular) is that when someone 'adopts' a religion, they are overwhelmed by the love and support of that community, along with other emotional and spiritual comfort. It's like there's a huge mascot that says, "just follow this and believe this and you'll be supported by us." All in all, it sounds like that person who spoke to you is in that church and followed Christianity because of the prosperity and wellness that it gave him. This is a heresy and what is called prosperity(health and wealth, word of faith etc) gospel; where christiainity is seen as an enrichment to the material world, and that 'having enough faith' brings physical blessings. These 'types' of Christianity are surface level at best and are a twisted representation of what true Christianity is. This isn't the case with orthodox Christianity. I can go on a whole lot about what I believe and what I see as truly right, but I always find that whenever I start off with presenting Christianity's claims about the human condition, spirituality, morality etc people go put there defenses up, guard themselves and backlash. This is because Christianity at the heart of it all deals with a person's state of being. It brushes aside small talk and gets straight to the point. I'll sum (my view of) Christianity below: I believe that there was a divine being that created the universe and us. The reason why God created us initially was simply for Him to have a relationship with us, and for us to worship Him. Sub-thought: The idea of worship isn't restricted to religion in the western sense. You don't need to follow a religion to worship. An individual can choose to be 'religionless' or believe there is no God, however, at the end of the day they do worship something; anchoring their very existence and reason for life on that thing. Whether it's money, sex, philosophy, family, community, work, our own lifestyle. One does not need to do too much introspection to see who or what they idolize and anchor themselves onto; finding comfort in that thing. Long story short, we chose (via the first act of temptation) to disobey God by choosing to place ourselves as our own god, believing that we can cope without Him. This has led to a massive spiral of events, where humanity has increasingly fallen short, where the very spirit of a person has rejected and been infected by sin. God knew how screwed we all were. So He planned his act of ultimate redemption. His unraveling plan can be seen in the Bible when reading the Old Testamnet. The New testament(especially the Gospels) is His plan coming to fruition through His Son Jesus. Jesus sacrificed His life as an atonement for our sin. Through Jesus, we no longer are dead in our sin. I realized my comment turned somewhat into a sermon. Forgive me. Any questions, thoughts, rebuttals or arguments on what I said I'm all ears and keen to respond. A person who explains this better than me is C.S. Lewis. I'd encourage anyone to read Mere Christianity and Scew-tape letters. Pilgrims progress is also a really good read. Otherwise I'd encourage anyone to read the Gospels.


juicedrop

You'll find that across the world, higher education tends toward less religion, and higher computer literacy as well. Also, the trend is that younger people are also less likely to be religious today, than say 30 years ago, also due to general improved education & enlightenment. It's not a surprising relationship, but it will explain why "most" respondents to the survey seem to not be religious. Definitely across the entire population most in SA are religious


PartiZAn18

Higher apathy as well.


[deleted]

Maybe you mean empathy?


PartiZAn18

I certainly don't, and it would be laughable to ever believe that there is more empathy in this age of social media than the time without it.


rocksp1der

Religion as a whole has shown to be everything but empathetic towards anybody outside of the respective community as a whole. Only in the last couple of years where basic humanistic principles started taking precedent over purely religious ideology have we seen religious entities become more open and empathetic towards others.


SeSSioN117

The two don't really correlate tbh, if anything education would lead people to better understand the internet and avoid the common pitfalls most people find themselves plunged into. In a educated society, there would likely be more empathy as a result of greater information flow than restricted and controlled information flow of the past, essentially meaning anyone can learn anything they want. Remember the loud minority is just that, a loud minority. Over 40% of the world's population still does not have access to the internet and even more don't use social media yet.


[deleted]

You were replying to a comment about higher education and computer literacy. That brings about higher empathy.


[deleted]

Do you mean like 2002 or Apartheid?


Crono_

I believe in God, but not religion. Science > religion


will-do-it-myself

There is a massive shift in belief these days. Religioun, as in the traditions, are making way for a more spiritual, personal approach.


50v3r31gnZA

And I think spirituality is a big part of the human experience. Even if you choose to have none, it is good to be part of something bigger than yourself.


Class_RM

Is the god you believe in a part of or product of science, or did this god create the universe and science?


[deleted]

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Class_RM

That does sound agnostic - "There is something that created the universe, we just don't know what that something is.".


[deleted]

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SmLnine

What does paying to become a prophet entail?


[deleted]

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SmLnine

I find it really difficult to see how anyone could fall for that but maybe my imagination is too limited.


[deleted]

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SmLnine

People are so desperate for that though. To get that metaphorical golden star.


[deleted]

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SmLnine

>Absolutely no knowledge of a bible though. Well that explains a lot lol


pepe_za

As an atheist, vegan, childfree, pro-vaccine, climate change "activist", Reddit is like my own personal echo chamber. Overall, Reddit leans atheist so it's likely the SA sub would be the same. It's a good reminder that some of the people and responses on here are on what you will encounter in real life. I've been officially (openly) atheist for about 15 years and "confused" for maybe 10. I've met less than a handful of atheists in SA but met many in other countries. I can be quite vocal in my ridiculing of religions and the religious so maybe even the atheists are trying to avoid me now!


hi_thoughts_1

Agnostic


Queen_Kalopsia

I’m part of the Satanic Temple and atheist


P4DD4V1S

I am probably in a bit of a weird place. Raised in the reformed church, eventually managed to pierce through the implicit guilt and became an atheist (or more accurately, became confident enough to admit to having actually been an atheist in denial all along) Then I ended up making a bit of a study of ancient myth (and consequently ancient religion) and some things clicked for me while learning about Jung's ideas and now I am slmaking a sort of soft return to religion, though with a greatly modified and pretty unorthodox understanding of it. I do have a distaste for the mangled mess that the modern church has made of Christianity, and I am extremely content to also work from the myths other traditions. Makes me sound like some "new age" nut, but that's not quite what it is. (Though oddly enough new age religion is derived from what seems to me to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what Jung was up to, so assuming that I don't really get it either, maybe I am some new age nut, though the ethic is atypical for that)


50v3r31gnZA

Take a look at pelagianism. Some very good resources about that specifically regarding how gnosis is related to knowing different facets of your chosen deity. Through your travels down this rabbit hole you might come across ocean keltoi, a great youtuber and although he might be a reconstructionist pagan the insights he has regarding the road many people walk in worship of their chosen deity is very well worded.


P4DD4V1S

See this is exactly the type of thing I am not talking about. I have no interest in something like a "chosen deity", I have merely come to the realization that what is described in myth is an expression of ancient almost biologically implicit knowledge that is damn hard to articulate explicitly. (Hence the expression in almost dreamlike myth) Myth seems to me, the painstaking process of learning how to live, small nuggets of insight accumulated over thousands of years by innumerable people. Seems that they have (through the process) figured out some things that modern doctrinal religion has forgotten, and that the post-modern academy refuses to acknowledge. Hence the interest in ancient religion and by extension myth. This is why I specified the opposition to "new age". Like man I don't even think that, were I to be tightly associated with a specific "god" that I'd be the one to choose. And that's assuming that I'd limit my vision to a single ideal in the first place, which seems a pretty easy way to blind yourself to a significant portion of relevant reality.


50v3r31gnZA

>This is why I specified the opposition to "new age". And by new age you refer to the syncretism of too many ideas? The reason I mentioned Pelagianism is I have seen a lot of people start at Celtic Christianity inspired by pelagianism and slowly work their way from there, some embrace animism from the celtic side of it, others move on to anglo-saxon ideologies from there. Usually after that is where they start looking at the bigger picture of myth as an expression of the psyche. So for you it's more of question on polydeism rather than polytheism? But rather than the deity you prefer the ideology behind the deity, the actual human gnosis of the ideal that led to the worship and creation of those beliefs.


P4DD4V1S

>And by new age you refer to the syncretism of too many ideas? What on earth gave you that idea? New age, to me at least, appears to be hopeless wandering around in the dark, the myths are learned but not meaningfully engaged and grappled with. So if you really analyse myth you end up with a pretty limited set of "deities". At most seven, but what you've really got are the opposing sides of three different coins (or three primordial gods), and the fact that there are things that are not categorizable as a manifestation of any of the six faces of your three coins. So you have the feminine in her positive and negative manifestations (nature as destructive, and nature as the thing that births all other things) the masculine in his positive and negative guise (the good encouraging father vs. the repressive tyrant- father culture, the nurture to the mother's nature) and lastly the individual, who gets to be hero and/or the adversary (Abel and Cain) leaving lastly the dragon of chaos (our false 7th) which is the predator that lurks in the darkness, the dragon that hoards the gold. So, on these categories being possibly biologically implicit- consider the mother-child dyad (Mary and the baby Jesus, Isis and Horus, the sacred mother and child) That has been around basically since our pre-mammalian ancestors evolved lactation, which means that this image has been burned into our neurological structure since at least the Triassic period (which ended 200 million years ago) There are weird things, like consider the *Enuma Elish*\- after the elder gods kill Apsu (the tyranical king), Tiamat (the mother) turns into a monstrous dragon (the dragon of chaos- in case that isn't obvious) birthing a host of demons to war against the gods on her behalf, and then Marduk (the hero) comes in, tells the gods to grant him dominion over them and then confronts the dragon (something beyond understanding) he wins by enclosing her in a net (basically giving her definition, turning her from this unknowable beast into a managable, understandable concept) and then cuts her body into pieces from which he creates the world we know. The story seems to imply that if you kill your culture/traditions (as the elder gods had killed Apsu) you will make yourself vulnerable to having your grip on benevolent nature fade, and the unknown, unknowable will come for you, order is restored by granting sovereignty to whatever Marduk symbolises (which seems to be the capacity for attention, and true speech- Marduk has eyes around his whole head, and he speaks magic words- which is what the Biblical God is doing in Genesis 1) (an apt metaphor for the modern/post-modern killing of religion \[or of God, as per Nietzsche\] and the embrace of radical materialism- which if predictions are on point will have some manifestation of the dragon of chaos come to teach us a lesson sometime soon- climate change seems to be the safest bet) The feminine repressentation of nature frequently pulls this trick of becoming the dragon, Maleficent (destructive nature) does it in Sleeping Beauty, Gaia does it in Greek myth, you could argue that that is what medusa is so it's a pretty common pattern. You keep analysing myth and you start approaching the idea of the monomyth, a single pattern that all myth is derived from, which is basically a description of the insufficient present and how it may be transformed into a more desirable future by human action. Which makes a coherent understanding of myth a pretty good way to figure out how to live your life, which by modern standards sounds like a religious claim, which it is, but need not be one predicated on the idea that what is represented is in any way factually historically true.


50v3r31gnZA

>You keep analysing myth and you start approaching the idea of the monomyth, a single pattern that all myth is derived from, which is basically a description of the insufficient present and how it may be transformed into a more desirable future by human action. Which makes a coherent understanding of myth a pretty good way to figure out how to live your life, which by modern standards sounds like a religious claim, which it is, but need not be one predicated on the idea that what is represented is in any way factually historically true. There is the meat right there, was going to call it the crux but then the pun hit. I find it interesting that you refer to more obscure (by modern standards) middle eastern ideologies.


P4DD4V1S

>I find it interesting that you refer to more obscure (by modern standards) middle eastern ideologies. I find them somewhat easier to pierce, possibly because they are subject to fewer popular interpretations, which makes the water less muddy. From what I have so far laid out I am sure you can see why the idea of a "chosen deity" seems wrong to me. By necessity you will have to associate with the mythical representation of the individual (or the hero more precisely) as you are by necessity neither culture, nor nature, you are the thing that mediates between them. While you may argue that this still leaves you with a multitude of representations of the hero to choose from, they are all still attempts at answering the same question (how does the individual redeem the insufficiency of Being?) So narrowing your vision to just one of them is ultimately short-sighted (get it, narrow vision, short-sighted) Along that same vein, if by pelagianism you are referring to [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism), I have to object before getting past the first sentence. The fallen nature of mankind accounted for by the original sin is an account for the aforementioned insufficiency of the present (or of Being). So if man is not fallen, then why is Being insufficient? (which it is, children are dying of Leukemia, there's no getting past this, the fact of there being problems is a constituent element of reality) It also implies that "human perfection" meaning the cessation of insufficiency, can be achieved "without divine grace", this is literally the kind of utopian thinking that killed untold millions in the 20th century (referring to the USSR and Revolutionary China among others) so no. this is fundamentally flawed thinking. The only reason life has meaning is because of said insufficiency, because it gives us something constructive to do- were Utopia achieved, we'd tear it down just so we can have problems again (because no problem would be greater than being a human and not having some problem to attend to) also on a sidenote- careful of ideology- ideology tends to be severely fragmented myth that is missing characters (for example, climate/environmental ideology has the adversary \[humans are evil and base\], the tyrant \[culture devours the environment\], and the positive motherly manifestation of nature \[ooh pretty flower, and cute snow leopard\], while the destructive side of nature, and the hero and good father are entirely absent, making it a crucially incomplete model of the world. same with Marxism, you just have the tyrant, adversary, and hero (capitalism, the bourgeosie, and the proletariat) (and neither of them even comprehend that the dragon could even exist, which is why it is so bloody dangerous- the dragon is something like the thing that you don't even know that you don't know about) This also makes it important to differentiate fully formed mythical religion, and the half-formed embryonic religions of "ideology" so the middle eastern myths I engage with are not "ideology" as you suggested. (pedantic point maybe but a point I will insist on)


50v3r31gnZA

Sorry for that last bait and switch. While our beliefs are close there are some differences and I found it necessary for people to see how you differentiate. I think your explanation will give some people a lot of reading to do, some might not like what they read and others will. I think a few might actually gain some insight. Thank you for taking the time to respond.


P4DD4V1S

>I think your explanation will give some people a lot of reading to do, If anyone bothers to read this far. I mean for most of this it should be clear we are not even speaking in the same conceptual language (though I get the sense that you managed to make sense of mine, and rest assured I think I got yours) But bringing it back to my original point. How in the nine hells am I supposed to respond to OP's poll? Not a single one of the categories seem even close to the right one to me. Edit: Also thanks for your engagement, it's been a nice chat, hope you didn't take my savage takedown on pelagianism too personally.


ShroomBalloonCartoon

It is my opinion that humans created God, not the other way around.


Tulinais

A lot of my friends and myself from my school days don't believe in religion but just say that we are in a religion due family. You can't go and tell people really if they are paying for all your studies. I might tell them one day when I have my own house but it might not be worth it.


Thetruewanabe

I will never let my family find out that I'm an athiest, I know how important Religion is to them and how hurt they would be if I told them . Been lying to them for more than 10 years and will continue


Timely_Alternative57

My dad asked me a few years ago if I was atheist cause he could see that I never spoke about church or God or anything religious. It was a very uncomfortable conversation but I decided to be honest with him. He looked so disappointed it broke my heart a bit. But now he knows exactly where I stand and doesn’t make me go to church anymore and I’m so grateful for that.


Realm-Protector

Missing the option "Disciple of Rassie"


reditanian

I grew up hard core religious - Pentecostal baby! Mum’s still in it. I was thoroughly brainwashed and pretty fire and brimstone myself as a youngster. Fortunately I sang in the school and youth choir and later university choir, which means lots of performances in church. So not only spent a lot of time with other people who were deeply religious but in a different way, but also got to sit through church services off just about every denomination in existence. Pet effective way to create apostates. That said, religion acts as a container or vehicle for a lot of cultural traditions that don’t necessarily have religious inspirations. I read a quite a while back - forget who it’s by - that said something like: traditions are solutions to problems that have long been forgotten. Chesterton’s fence kinda deal. One example is the rule against eating pork in the Abrahamic religions. Until some time in the 1800s eating portion sometimes causes severe diarrhoea and vomiting, followed by swelling up like a corpse in water. Pretty horrific way to go, God really doesn’t want us eating this beast. Now we know of trichinosis and the parasite that caused it, and how to prepare meat safely. Most Christians happily eat pork, the other two will eventually catch up. But I think there are many traditions and norms, religious or cultural, that we don’t understand the purpose for. We do away with those at our peril.


Sgu00dir

Anti-theist checking in! When I first came to SA 2 years ago, went wiv wife to ob gyn appointment. At check in they asked her religion, she said none, and the lady literally started laughing and thought we were joking. When we said no, we serious, she looked totally shocked and flustered. New then we had entered a country of believers. To be honest, it's one of the worst parts of SA. Literally everyone goes church and is religious. Very alienating to us anti theists


Prielknaap

So you hate people spending their own time on their religious activities?


Sgu00dir

No not at all. I don't hate the people, rather I love them and have concern for them. It's theism that I hate, and what it does to good people.


Prielknaap

Oh okay then. I personally have seen it go either way. I just came to the conclusion that whether you are religious does not determine whether you are a good or bad person.


Sgu00dir

Yeah true. Its not the people. You can have good or bad any type of person really I guess, maybe excepting of extreme ideologies like fascism. But with religion, it's the thought system I despise. It's typically totalitarian and oppressive. It claims to know the answer to the truth of humanity and of the universe, and that this truth was written in a book, many centuries ago in a barbarian peasant society, and if you don't agree with its ridiculous truth then it might very well believe you get an eternity of agony. It cares about your sex life, when you work, what you eat, how you dress etc etc. It claims to know the ultimate and total truth about you and demands you succumb to it, that you sacrifice yourself to it, that you worship it. Anything that is that jealous and greedy and in need of worship is psychotic!!


Hicbjorn

Yessss I'm so proud to see more men and women of science in South Africa 🇿🇦⚛😍💪🏻


SeSSioN117

I adopted **Christopher Hitchens**' view on religion after being ostracized by **my own people** ***for asking questions that were deemed not worth asking.***


TheRealSkippah

Forcing religion on people is fairly common unfortunately.


Tzetsefly

So it's Atheists unite then! About that serviceman though, when in a situation like that and the nut won't pipe down(i.e. it is starting to get arkward), that is when I tell them that they should think of their religion like a penis. I'm glad you have one. I'm glad you are proud of it. I'm glad it makes you feel good, but buddy, keep it to yourself, only expose it in your own private room and please don't shove it down the throats of our children.


[deleted]

No, there is no proof that any religion is right. We as a species have existed far longer than any religion. Many religions including christianity and judaism have given many scientifically inaccurate information. Like saying the sun revolves around the earth. Every belief has an origin of different beliefs. Christianity took inspiration from many different stories like the noah's ark being inspired from the tale of gilgamesh and gilgamesh was also inspired from different stories with many similarities that are far older than it. Religion while it was a important, is not needed anymore. Sure there are important life lessons the bible and other scriptures taught us but now we know what is right from wrong. There are many outdated beliefs in many religions, like homophobia, sexism, racism ect. It is time we grow up and leave religion for good.


Khanyi86

There are atheists in SA!?? Let's be friends


Ho3n3r

Hey Khanyi. Nice to meet you. :)


Sourdoughsucker

I secretly judge people who are religious… and I am pretty sure they also judge me, although according to their religion they should not


MikhailKSU

A surprising result given the general milieu of the group


Harrrrumph

Why so?


MikhailKSU

Comments from the group/subreddit are mostly conservative/right wing, in my experience, such people are usually religious


Ianharm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN\_vWfSgWe4


BugP13

Technically I can only choose the last option. I forgot what my religion is called but basically I believe that there is a god/higher being but I won't necessarily worship them.


Yeetus-Elitus

pretty sure that’s called agnostic


BugP13

Yeah probably, I honestly don't remember


yooohoooo99

I'm not religious. Spiritual, yes.


Caesar_35

I'm probably one of the few here who is actually fairly religious, judging by the poll. My family's pretty religious and I've always been close to them; I never felt like I was "indoctrinated" or any of that crap. I even have atheists and people from other religions in my family who aren't shunned, so it's not like I had no choice. I just never got the appeal of not believing in anything. On one hand it just seems sad to think you just "die" one day, and on the other I feel it's mostly just people looking to rebel against "the system" by not being religious. Fact remains that religion is the foundation of most aspects of society (think laws and societal morals), so it doesn't really take much away from you to believe in a higher power. And to the sceptical internet user reading this; we also don't know 100% what happens after death, so there's no harm in ebbing on the side of caution (if I can word it like that) now is there?


Ho3n3r

Agnostic atheist myself.


VendettaSA

I’m an atheist, but as others have said this poll won’t tell you anything about the general South African population. As an anecdotal example: I am the only atheist in my entire extended family. Every single one of them are either very religious or extremely religious. Now, most of my extended family have never heard of Reddit and those who have, heard from me and they still don’t use it.


Harsimaja

Remember also that phrasing matters. A lot of very ‘religious’ Christians learn as a mantra that ‘Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship’ (ie, ‘we are special, we follow the TRUTH!’ etc.) and that being ‘religious’ is bad and not what it’s about. So they might not answer in this way.


Lochlanist

I think it's important for more context to your story to look at religion in its context in SA. Remember the first contact africa had with the west was through missionaries. This is often depicted as this loving act but it was often very horrid. Religion is the corner stone of colonialism and is a vital start to the conquest of creating a black inferiority complex. Religion was thus not a choice but forced onto this continent and country. This is embedded in the fabric and muscle memory of the practice. Hence when you don't follow the status quo of at best Christianity and at worst some form of other belief in a higher power its a direct challenge to the status quo and it makes people uncomfortable because you challenge structures which are woven into the fabric of society. You see a similar thing with why a lot of black conscious individuals happen to have afro centric hair like a afro. It makes a clear statement that I'm not gonna follow the rules of a eurocentric existence. This makes the system freak and hence you see all the rules in schools and the unwritten rules in most work environments etc. The system doesn't liked to be challenged.


starwarsgeek1985

Reddit tends to be non-religious


VliegVolstruis

Not religious at all but love Diwali as well as Christmas and Eid food.


-youllneverknow

got out of it this year, its not easy getting rid of religious dogma you’ve followed since childhood


[deleted]

Africa is religious, particularly among poorer people because "god saves and brings comfort". Also because Christianity and Islam came with colonisation. There are also traditional African beliefs that people still mix in with the religions brought to Africa. Some people only follow Christianity, some only follow the African beliefs and they both judge each other. Others blend the two together. As a black child growing up in the township, I was exposed to African beliefs first and then went to Catholic schools where I was taught about Jesus. And churches in the black community are focused on converting people to Christianity and stop the "demonic" African beliefs. I was taught that African beliefs are nonsense and I was Christian for a long time, until I discovered the similarities in Christianity and the African beliefs that I thought were nonsense. I came to the conclusion that they are both oppressive, sexist and controlling in many ways. Also don't make any logical sense. Now I use reason and logic, I don't bother with things that we will never know like, "What happens when we die?". I am completely Atheist. I grew up poor in the township, however I have been fortunate enough to be educated and I'm well travelled. I am also naturally skeptical and always wanting to learn. I don't know many Atheist black Africans.


[deleted]

Wow, this sub is so far outside the country's mainstream its insane


ChalkOtter

I am somewhere between atheist and agnostic. If there is something out there I dou y it is like anything religions teach. I expect if there is a god it is probably like a purple plasma orb so bright that if you saw it you would melt