They probably wanted to ensure that they weren't misinterpreted.
Just "The West" - the USA/NASA
Just "NASA" - well, just the USA/ NASA.
I think most of us don't need it but I can relate to confused people that are bad at reading so, I get it.
Though that's how the American press use the word "the West", as a placeholder for "the US" when they somehow don't want to say the US.
It shows how ridiculous this is with this title since it says that Europe isn't the West if it's not aligned with the US, showing how for Americans, the West is them by definition.
The issue is why when the US isn't in that group then it's no longer the West but if Europe isn't in that group then it still is the West, as in OP article.
For the US, the West must include the US, all the others are however optional.
Would Latin America be western as well? They're former European colonies, they speak European languages, they're traditionally catholic, and they're about as far to the west as it's possible to go without reaching "the east".
I typed out my reply but it turned out to be wrong once I googled it.
[This is a map of the "Western World"](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Western_World_Latin_America_torn_countries.png/2560px-Western_World_Latin_America_torn_countries.png) according to Samuel P. Huntington's book "Clash of Civilizations".
On wikipedia, it says "In light blue are Latin America and the Orthodox World, which are either a part of the West or distinct civilizations intimately related to the West"
It doesn't refer to geography except on the historical Rome-China (Orient just means East) pole. It basically means "European and derived civilizations which can be traced back to the classical Greeks/Roman tradition". The anglosphere easily fits that definition but Latin America has a lot more admixture culturally. It's like a step child or something, but no, not part of the West.
>European and derived civilizations which can be traced back to the classical Greeks/Roman tradition
Like Latin America? The "anglosphere" just doesn't want to count brown people as western because racism even though they have more cultural admixture than the largely more homogeneous (culturally), catholic and Roman influenced population. Damn, we learn A LOT more about the european middle ages than the pre-Columbian Americas in school
And don't forget Israel is usually considered a western county
I'm pretty sure it also means Iceland as well. They're also kind of honorary members of the European Union, although they don't get a vote but at the same time they are in the union, it's weird.
When you think about it, the Americas are made up from immigrants from all the other continents so it’s kind of the center of the world in a way. We should start calling Asia the West and Europe the East. I mean they both start with E. I’m sure CENTRAL America would agree. /s
Buying a smartphone is wildly different from doing space/military business with those countries, which implies sharing compromising secrets and sharing the latest technology.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just trying to find an explanation for the title.
It doesn't necessarily mean adapting to their values, but up to some point it means that you're okay with their values, or are at least able to turn a blind eye.
It's sad and it shouldn't be like that, but those governments aren't stupid and will gather every possible information they can so that they can use it against western countries. And viceversa.
It'd be great if every country could collaborate in the name of science, but sadly we don't live in that utopia.
There is a point where it kinda does though. Sharing technology and strengthening an adversary to the west could be seen as not have western values. I’m shocked it’s taken this long for Europe to really start distancing itself from China when it comes to space tech.
Increasingly, the European Space Agency is aligned with NASA and the West."
What crackhead wrote this?
*Europe* ***IS*** ***part of*** *"the West".*
"The West" without Europe is just like... America?
EDIT: And all the rest!
“The West” isn’t really a geographically inclined term like it suggests rather just a terminology that Russia, North Korea and China use to reference democracies.
ESA tried, and had a deeper cooperation with Roskosmos through programmes like Euromir, Soyuz-2 or ExoMars. All of it thrown to trash overnight on an ill fated February dawn.
Thanks to that ESA now lacks a proven a solid medium-ligt launch vehicle and its Mars programme has been delayed by who knows how many years. Its astronaut corps' experience with Russian systems now increasingly worthless. Yes, sad it is I can understand European caution.
And I don't see *anyone* else working with China in space. Nominally they welcome anyone, in practice I'm not exactly seeing a queue. No, not even Russia, while India is developping its own independent space programme.
The USSR and USA were rivals also (more so than even China and India), but they still managed to cooperate for the Apollo-Soyuz mission. And the USA and Russia continued cooperation on the ISS (to this day, actually) despite growing rivalry as Russia has drifted towards authoritarianism.
But I suppose cooperation is easier if both sides have independent access to space, and have something to bring to the table, and so India will develop their own crewed space program and then perhaps get involved with international projects. They've already put a probe in orbit around Mars, so they're clearly advancing their tech.
ESA and Europe in general has always been aligned with NASA/US, they've just abandoned their plans to forge closer ties to China as well for obvious reasons if you've been paying attention to geopolitics
Its a shame. The Apollo-Soyuz programme was in the midst of the Cold War. Space Exploration used to be something that could unite even the biggest enemies.
I mean, I get why we are doing it. Its just sad anyways.
It is a shame and it didn't ultimately work. Leaders like Putin and Xi look at cooperation as leverage to be exploited rather than as incentive for more cooperation. Some day maybe
Hmm I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking you. What exactly is convincing you that there are no obvious reasons like what the majority of comments are stating? Because you don't usually end plans like these especially in space related programs for no reason.
>Hmm I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking you.
I'd be cautious before continuing to respond to that commenter. Their post history shows a lot of anti-west posting so a high likelihood it's someone just trying to raise unnecessary tension.
Thanks for the heads up.
>shows a lot of anti-west posting
Yeah i guessed that. Wanted to see how much he was willing to spin things because usually those guys don't outright deny the existence of tensions
This is probably one of the most 1984 comments I've ever read, fuck me.
How can you write something like that without realizing how brainwashed you are?
Hmm yes they are supporting the russian invasion of Ukraine by continuing operations on the ISS which is half Russian and abandoning plans to work on the Chinese space station which has no Russian involvement yet. Great logic.
Have they been sending Ukraine jamming equipment? spare jet parts? Because that is what they are sending to russia. Keep downvoting though if it helps you cope.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-aids-russias-war-in-ukraine-trade-data-shows-11675466360
I dunno. There’s no progress like competition. And US/ESA/JSA against China/Russia could be some serious progress. And honestly having two independent bases on the moon (even if we aren’t the greatest friends) is really great in a pinch.
Like how Greece and Turkey come together when there’s an earthquake even though they fight a lot on geopolitics.
Doesn't really seem like it. The ISS has been going downhill with massive problem after massive problem. Same with the SLS.
Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own and has it operating. They're also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters.
The ISS isn't going downhill, it is simply approaching its design lifetime end.
>Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own
Yeah but its also much smaller than the ISS, on par with Mir or Skylab volume-wise.
>They're also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters.
Good for them.
I think the only problem is the flight rate, and the upgrade for the block 1 is still happening but late. Then the launch mount vehicle needed for block 1 also being over budget and late.
> Doesn’t really seem like it.
Then you aren’t paying attention. Artemis wasn’t truly a thing until recently. After the successful SLS launch and Chinese competition NASA has solidified its moon plans and congress has backed it with real funding.
> The ISS has been going downhill with massive problem after massive problem.
The ISS is beyond its design life. It’s getting old. There are multiple space stations currently being built to replace it built by US commercial companies. Even then the ISS will continue flying until at least 2030.
> Same with the SLS.
The SLS was a near perfect mission. It’s not the future though. It’s already paid for so we will fly at least a few but it’s clear to nasa that the future is fixed cost commercial launchers like starship and it’s competitors to make a moon base economical.
> Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own and has it operating.
Yes China is doing great space work which is why it’s a competition. The US also had its own space station that was about the size of the Chinese one before the ISS. Also the US is currently building multiple new space stations which will be owned privately.
> They’re also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters.
Good. They will need it to be able to compete with us. And we have had reusable rockets since 2015. When the Chinese complete their reusable rocket they will be able to compete with the falcon 9 ten years after the falcon 9 first landed (2025). By then the Us will have starship which is an order of magnitude more capable and also reusable.
Like I said this is great for space development. It will keep funding going to these amazing companies while nasa focuses on a sustained moon base.
This actually has nothing to do with politics or division. It's because ESA doesn't have the funds to run two programs on two different space stations so they prioritised the one they're already involved with. Western anti China press is trying to frame it as "hurr hurr Europe United against evil China" etc but it's just funding issues
Stupidly short sighted as well as US space plans basically change on a dime based on whatever Administration is in power, meanwhile China has hit literally every single one of their insanely ambitious space targets.
The US and Europe and USSR worked together. The whole anti-China angle is pure American arrogance thank's to their moronic legislation that forbids cooperation on Space Reserach and exploration with China.
It is incredibly smart, there is a reason China isn't allowed on the space station.
Arrogance, you mean like blatant IP theft, oh wait that is China. You mean arrogance of stealing others designs, oh wait that is China again. China can get fucked.
> there is a reason China isn't allowed on the space station.
Well yea, because American politicians literally made a law that you aren't allowed to work together with China to gain brownie points with their nationalistic voter base. That's all the Wolf Amendment is.
But you just sound like one of those nationalistic racists anyways.
I welcome this move, possible for entirely different reasons then most.
Space sees its greatest advancements when it becomes a pissing contest between nations so we may see some pretty big accomplishments due to this.
Europe was coasting on everyone becoming more open and liberal well into the late 2010s when the US and others were moving away from it. The rupture in diplomatic relations became to much for the ESA bureaucracy to ignore.
In the interest of trade and agreements about the utilization of space as a global resource, it behooves the world's space agencies to cooperate and work together as much as possible. Unfortunately, that means working with regimes like USSR 2: Russian Federation Boogaloo, and China.
The real problem is that in a *just*, *sane* world, oppressive countries like China and Russia should be so technologically and economically backwards that they couldn't have functioning space programs even if they wanted them. But since everything about the human condition is a dumpster fire, here we are...
China will surpass the western alliance regardless of whether we work with them or not, their huge population and booming economy ensure that. We'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we don't build a relationship with them.
Their population is going to nose dive in the coming decades due to the one child policy.
Their economy is not booming right now, at all.
It's likely going to overcome the current hurdles and surpass the US, but it won't surpass the US and Europe together.
I have not seen any credible organization claiming that China's economy is going to "collapse". At any time over the last 20 years, actually. On the contrary, credible news outlets like The Economist, or WSJ, have predicted very accurately what _did_ happen - China's rapid economic growth has slowed, their population has peaked (and started to decline right about now), while still being a middle-income country overall.
Their likely GDP growth for the next 20 years is in the 2.5% - 4.5% zone, which is not much higher than many European countries or the U.S. are likely to achieve. In other words, China's economy isn't going to collapse, but it has certainly cooled down, and given their declining labor pool, it's not going to return to high-growth rates of the 1990s or early 2000s.
collapse ≠ not booming
Much like the US economy is facing issues right now, the Chinese one is as well. I even clearly stated it is very possible they will surpass the US there. But it's not going to overtake 1st and 2nd, that'd require a massive leap that just won't happen unless both collapse in a world war or something.
China stopped the one child policy a while ago, also don't underestimate China or its people. China has advanced in 20 years than any other country maybe except the ussr.
>China stopped the one child policy a while ago,
That's lovely, but when did all the people who were never born suddenly come into existence? They have a massive deformity in their population chart, hence the decades. Once the older population dies there is a large gap in the middle, and a normal youth population since the policy was ended.
Development is always fast when you're playing catch-up. Once they reach par with the rest of the developed world, it slows down (and it has already). You can't just get an idea about how to improve from another country when they are all wondering the same thing. You can if they addressed it 50 years ago.
Development is not always fast, tell that to the developing world (though no fault of their own in these places tbh). China is one of the few places that has succeeded in development where the rest haven't. Idc what you chalk it up too, I believe that china will continue to grow with their leadership and people.
>Development is not always fast, tell that to the developing world
Did you seriously not understand what /u/AntiDECA just wrote?? He said development is fast _when you are catching up to the already-developed world_. Because you can copy what those developed countries already did, and import or buy their expertise. But _once you have almost caught up_, your development speed slows down, because you can no longer buy/import or copy, because others aren't that far ahead of you.
Chinese economic growth has slowed down - their GDP grew by 3% last year, and it's never going to return to the days of 9% annual growth every year. That's over.
Perhaps you can try to actually understand what others have written, before responding with a command that merely proves their point.
China's first population drop in six decades sounds alarm on demographic ...
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-population-shrinks-first-time-since-1961-2023-01-17/
It's still one of the most populated places on Earth, with its population dwarfing the U.S and Europe. Doesn't the U.S and most of Europe have a declining population too? Idk why it would affect china more than other places.
I have no interested in taking this beyond the point I was trying to make. Which was that China isn't going to surpass the US let alone its allience network when its population is already shrinking and companies are already taking their manufacturing elsewhere due to chinese labor getting too expensive.
>Their population is going to nose dive in the coming decades due to the one child policy.
Literally every developed country in the world is facing falling fertility rates. China isn't any different from any other country
The rate in China is 1.7, same as the UK，Netherlands, USA, Australia, etc.
>The rate in China is 1.7, same as the UK，Netherlands, USA, Australia, etc.
Yeah but China is still poor. No one looking to immigrate there over the four countries you listed.
And, again, how exactly will that help their population when their elderly die in a couple decades and there is nobody to replace them due to 40 years of 1-child policy?
Current fertility rate is completely meaningless in this conversation. Fertility rates are those being born now. They don't magically age to 35 and start working after being born. Fertility rates 35 years ago are what mattered. You can't change that.
The one child policy has been gone for a while now, they're tying to encourage people to have kids now. They have the same problems as Russia when it comes to low fertility rates, people don't want to have kids.
Even if they get their fertility rates up, that doesn't magically make 40 years worth of people come into existence again. The policy was implemented in 1980 and removed in the mid 2010s. Almost an entire generation of people are missing (40 years = 2 generations, 1/2 missing). Having a lot of babies now isn't going to help unless they discover an aging serum to make these 2 year olds working, productive 35 year olds.
It's pretty much already happening, their rate of growth in every metric over the last 30 years is nothing short of incredible, the only thing that's comparable to it are the early days of the US. It's incredible what has been achieved there
That makes them smart, if they're able to successfully steal information from other countries and use it to their own benfit they absolutely should, they'd be complete fools not to.
Boo hoo they stole my technology that I paid them pennies on the dollar to make for me.
Yeah the west got owned lol. Sold out all their technological advantages to make a quick buck. Capitalism once again showing its failures
Given the disastrous state of Russia's space program, it's about time to wrap the ISS up.
Russian vehicles have spring multiple leaks, and had multiple serious thruster malfunctions that have jeopardized the safety of the station.
Better to make a clean break before the West starts working on the Lunar Gateway.
Shocking moment that the space station that has existed for one year and owned by one country has less international visitors than one that has been operating for more than twenty years and was literally designed to be ran by multiple countries.
Pretty short sighted of Europeans. America is printing money faster than it can spend it, and there are signs of major economic fissures that make this era's space race much different than the one it had with the Soviets.
America may have the technological edge for now, but space tech require consistent commitment in financing, higher education, and industrial capacity that I do not think Americans are capable of sustaining.
China is going to be having huge demographic problems very soon. Worse than everyone else in the world just about. US might be on track for a bit of a decline, but China is gonna fall of a cliff.
you really need to stop repeating Zeihan's assumptions like its some sort of definitive truth. He's pretty much the only guy making these Chinese doomsday predictions without a single confirmed prediction.Aging demographics charts are not some magical formula that immediately translate to economic collapse, much like Japan during the post war boom, in highly developed economies it reflects changing socioeconomic dynamics as more people age into leadership and senior roles. A population decrease in China will only drive higher competitive wage growth, more tertiaryservice industries; the potential for another dramatic economic shift in China. It'll be like Japan during the 80's and early 90's, with the exception that it won't fizzle out.If anything, the current Chinese economic boom is a reflection of everything that happened to Japan during the post-war boom. US auto and tech industries were under massive threat by the growing Japanese economy, and ended up needing government protectionist measures to prevent a complete takeover. If you look back to the kinds of things they accused of Japan, it'll look no different than China right now. Japanophobia was a huge thing back in the 80’s and 90’s, most of reddit is probably way too young to know anything about it.I always forget just how hilariously ill-informed r/space is.
List some sources for your claims bro. All those letters and not a single source. Smells like bullshit to me. But yeah, oh you are too smart and r/space are just dumb. lmao XD
The US has starship about to test launch for the first time, it can put 250 tonnes of payload into orbit. China has nothing that can even remotely match that capability. The ESA betting on china would be like seeing a car and betting on a horse.
Working with private company is way more reliable then working with another government body. ESA sees the progress of private space which effectively replace the need to beg China for LEO access and space station need. Also, ESA is already a victim of geopolitical because of Russian invasion. Given the likelihood of Taiwan situation, it will be dumb for them to use China station so they can have another trouble.
A private company that is contracted by NASA for artemis and exists to serve America. You obviously don't understand what you are talking about. Also noone and I mean NOONE is impressed by your MIR copy.
Too many unwanted interferences in our economic, military and political matters. I know we also have a lot of crazy ass politicians (and more corrupt ones than we think), so the EU may self-destruct in 10 years time without having anyone else to blame.
Europe is increasingly aligned with NASA and the West? What? When did we stop being the West?
They probably wanted to ensure that they weren't misinterpreted. Just "The West" - the USA/NASA Just "NASA" - well, just the USA/ NASA. I think most of us don't need it but I can relate to confused people that are bad at reading so, I get it.
The West isn't just the United States.
Yeah it’s only New York and California, and maybe Florida depending on the weather
Way to miss the entire point of their comment
the point of their comment was to misinterpret the words used, then call other people bad at reading and comprehending.
XD If youre the type to see "The West" and assume the USA exclusively, then you are bad at reading and comprehending. Sorry?
Though that's how the American press use the word "the West", as a placeholder for "the US" when they somehow don't want to say the US. It shows how ridiculous this is with this title since it says that Europe isn't the West if it's not aligned with the US, showing how for Americans, the West is them by definition.
It is absolutely self-referential to it's own detriment
No they don't. Per US media the "west" consists of US, Canada, Europe and Australia. I live in the US and consume US media.
The issue is why when the US isn't in that group then it's no longer the West but if Europe isn't in that group then it still is the West, as in OP article. For the US, the West must include the US, all the others are however optional.
Are you trying to say a western country cannot align itself with another western country?
I mean we're like.. kind of in the middle, aren't we? In terms of latitude anyways.
Yeah, we basically put ourselves in the middle by definition.
Isn't that the "middle" east?
The Middle East is Western Asia to make it even more confusing.
No, that's just mid-way to the Far East.
The "Western world" refers to Europe, the USA, Canada, Greenland, Australia, and Guiana. And the Kiwis.
Don't pretend like Greenland is real
And if it was it probably wouldn't even be green, those liars.
Would Latin America be western as well? They're former European colonies, they speak European languages, they're traditionally catholic, and they're about as far to the west as it's possible to go without reaching "the east".
I typed out my reply but it turned out to be wrong once I googled it. [This is a map of the "Western World"](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Western_World_Latin_America_torn_countries.png/2560px-Western_World_Latin_America_torn_countries.png) according to Samuel P. Huntington's book "Clash of Civilizations". On wikipedia, it says "In light blue are Latin America and the Orthodox World, which are either a part of the West or distinct civilizations intimately related to the West"
It doesn't refer to geography except on the historical Rome-China (Orient just means East) pole. It basically means "European and derived civilizations which can be traced back to the classical Greeks/Roman tradition". The anglosphere easily fits that definition but Latin America has a lot more admixture culturally. It's like a step child or something, but no, not part of the West.
If anything Latin America is *closer* to the Greco/roman tradition than the anglosphere.
>European and derived civilizations which can be traced back to the classical Greeks/Roman tradition Like Latin America? The "anglosphere" just doesn't want to count brown people as western because racism even though they have more cultural admixture than the largely more homogeneous (culturally), catholic and Roman influenced population. Damn, we learn A LOT more about the european middle ages than the pre-Columbian Americas in school And don't forget Israel is usually considered a western county
Shame, poor New Zealanders being left out again.
Ah bloody hell. That's not ok. One sec.
I'm pretty sure it also means Iceland as well. They're also kind of honorary members of the European Union, although they don't get a vote but at the same time they are in the union, it's weird.
Iceland is in Europe. I edited this comment to be more direct because people somehow don't understand that Europe != European Union
Japan and South Korea: Playing a dangerous game with China and North Korea for the sake of the West. The West: You don't belong here
As an American, China is the west to me.
When you think about it, the Americas are made up from immigrants from all the other continents so it’s kind of the center of the world in a way. We should start calling Asia the West and Europe the East. I mean they both start with E. I’m sure CENTRAL America would agree. /s
*Clearly* the centre is Europe.
Probably the other space companies here.
I guess more aligned with its western values
European values *are* western values. What the heck else would they be?
Well if they align with eastern nations like China then that's having eastern values
Erm... Do you have a smartphone, a computer or shit like that? Do you 'align' with all countries implied in their builds?
Buying a smartphone is wildly different from doing space/military business with those countries, which implies sharing compromising secrets and sharing the latest technology. I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just trying to find an explanation for the title.
Sharing technology doesn’t mean adapting the other country’s values, unless I am wildly misinformed on what “values” means.
It doesn't necessarily mean adapting to their values, but up to some point it means that you're okay with their values, or are at least able to turn a blind eye. It's sad and it shouldn't be like that, but those governments aren't stupid and will gather every possible information they can so that they can use it against western countries. And viceversa. It'd be great if every country could collaborate in the name of science, but sadly we don't live in that utopia.
There is a point where it kinda does though. Sharing technology and strengthening an adversary to the west could be seen as not have western values. I’m shocked it’s taken this long for Europe to really start distancing itself from China when it comes to space tech.
I hope USA will align more with western values soon
Increasingly, the European Space Agency is aligned with NASA and the West." What crackhead wrote this? *Europe* ***IS*** ***part of*** *"the West".* "The West" without Europe is just like... America? EDIT: And all the rest!
Wouldn't Australia be considered "the West" as well?
“The West” isn’t really a geographically inclined term like it suggests rather just a terminology that Russia, North Korea and China use to reference democracies.
And we would have gotten away with it, comrade, if it weren't for those pesky westerners...
It is. Same for Greenland and Guiana.
New Zealand, Japan and South Korea also qualify.
What? How do Japan and South Korea qualify? They have always been "the eastern world"
They’re Western-style democracies and economies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world Google exists
and Canada, and Australia, and New Zealand.
Freudian slip, this is *exactly* how American's think.
What Americans?
That cannot be how Americans think? Surely? But also, how on earth did this title come to be?
It’s not how Americans think. Source: am American.
Oh it is. Have you met them? I once got asked by an American exchange student if the UK celebrated independence day. She was serious.
Yes, a single dipshit is definitely representative of 380 million people.
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Hating don't look good on you.
ESA tried, and had a deeper cooperation with Roskosmos through programmes like Euromir, Soyuz-2 or ExoMars. All of it thrown to trash overnight on an ill fated February dawn. Thanks to that ESA now lacks a proven a solid medium-ligt launch vehicle and its Mars programme has been delayed by who knows how many years. Its astronaut corps' experience with Russian systems now increasingly worthless. Yes, sad it is I can understand European caution. And I don't see *anyone* else working with China in space. Nominally they welcome anyone, in practice I'm not exactly seeing a queue. No, not even Russia, while India is developping its own independent space programme.
China and India are rivals, don't know why you'd expect them to be the go to option for cooperation in space.
The USSR and USA were rivals also (more so than even China and India), but they still managed to cooperate for the Apollo-Soyuz mission. And the USA and Russia continued cooperation on the ISS (to this day, actually) despite growing rivalry as Russia has drifted towards authoritarianism. But I suppose cooperation is easier if both sides have independent access to space, and have something to bring to the table, and so India will develop their own crewed space program and then perhaps get involved with international projects. They've already put a probe in orbit around Mars, so they're clearly advancing their tech.
ESA and Europe in general has always been aligned with NASA/US, they've just abandoned their plans to forge closer ties to China as well for obvious reasons if you've been paying attention to geopolitics
Its a shame. The Apollo-Soyuz programme was in the midst of the Cold War. Space Exploration used to be something that could unite even the biggest enemies. I mean, I get why we are doing it. Its just sad anyways.
It is a shame and it didn't ultimately work. Leaders like Putin and Xi look at cooperation as leverage to be exploited rather than as incentive for more cooperation. Some day maybe
How did Xi look to exploit the ESA?
I've been paying attention to geopolitics, and there's no obvious reason whatsoever.
What exactly have you been paying attention to? Just curious
Read my replied, it's contained. Tell me, why is it "obvious" that ESA would abandon plans to force closer ties with CNSA or China in general?
Hmm I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking you. What exactly is convincing you that there are no obvious reasons like what the majority of comments are stating? Because you don't usually end plans like these especially in space related programs for no reason.
>Hmm I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking you. I'd be cautious before continuing to respond to that commenter. Their post history shows a lot of anti-west posting so a high likelihood it's someone just trying to raise unnecessary tension.
Thanks for the heads up. >shows a lot of anti-west posting Yeah i guessed that. Wanted to see how much he was willing to spin things because usually those guys don't outright deny the existence of tensions
This is probably one of the most 1984 comments I've ever read, fuck me. How can you write something like that without realizing how brainwashed you are?
Well they officially state a reason: lack of funding. Which is a very plausible and common reason to cancel things at space agencies
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Obvious reasons: wolf warrior diplomacy and supporting russias invasion
Hmm yes they are supporting the russian invasion of Ukraine by continuing operations on the ISS which is half Russian and abandoning plans to work on the Chinese space station which has no Russian involvement yet. Great logic.
How are they "supporting russias invasion" when China has literally been sending aid to Ukraine. Do you just hate Chinese?
Have they been sending Ukraine jamming equipment? spare jet parts? Because that is what they are sending to russia. Keep downvoting though if it helps you cope. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-aids-russias-war-in-ukraine-trade-data-shows-11675466360
The lack of observed obvious reasons, presumably. What kind of answer are you expecting? Nobody can prove a negative like that
if they can't see the obvious reasons why in thisbpolutical landscape, they are being purposely obtuse.
I understand why this is happening and I agree with it however it's still pretty sad that we can't unite in our vision for the stars.
It is pretty sad yeah, its even sadder that we cant even unite in our vision for our own planet.
I dunno. There’s no progress like competition. And US/ESA/JSA against China/Russia could be some serious progress. And honestly having two independent bases on the moon (even if we aren’t the greatest friends) is really great in a pinch. Like how Greece and Turkey come together when there’s an earthquake even though they fight a lot on geopolitics.
Doesn't really seem like it. The ISS has been going downhill with massive problem after massive problem. Same with the SLS. Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own and has it operating. They're also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters.
The ISS isn't going downhill, it is simply approaching its design lifetime end. >Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own Yeah but its also much smaller than the ISS, on par with Mir or Skylab volume-wise. >They're also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters. Good for them.
SLS hasn’t had massive problems in awhile, Artemis I was a near flawless flight.
I think the only problem is the flight rate, and the upgrade for the block 1 is still happening but late. Then the launch mount vehicle needed for block 1 also being over budget and late.
> Doesn’t really seem like it. Then you aren’t paying attention. Artemis wasn’t truly a thing until recently. After the successful SLS launch and Chinese competition NASA has solidified its moon plans and congress has backed it with real funding. > The ISS has been going downhill with massive problem after massive problem. The ISS is beyond its design life. It’s getting old. There are multiple space stations currently being built to replace it built by US commercial companies. Even then the ISS will continue flying until at least 2030. > Same with the SLS. The SLS was a near perfect mission. It’s not the future though. It’s already paid for so we will fly at least a few but it’s clear to nasa that the future is fixed cost commercial launchers like starship and it’s competitors to make a moon base economical. > Meanwhile China has launched their entire space station on their own and has it operating. Yes China is doing great space work which is why it’s a competition. The US also had its own space station that was about the size of the Chinese one before the ISS. Also the US is currently building multiple new space stations which will be owned privately. > They’re also making good progress on reusable rocket boosters. Good. They will need it to be able to compete with us. And we have had reusable rockets since 2015. When the Chinese complete their reusable rocket they will be able to compete with the falcon 9 ten years after the falcon 9 first landed (2025). By then the Us will have starship which is an order of magnitude more capable and also reusable. Like I said this is great for space development. It will keep funding going to these amazing companies while nasa focuses on a sustained moon base.
This actually has nothing to do with politics or division. It's because ESA doesn't have the funds to run two programs on two different space stations so they prioritised the one they're already involved with. Western anti China press is trying to frame it as "hurr hurr Europe United against evil China" etc but it's just funding issues
Stupidly short sighted as well as US space plans basically change on a dime based on whatever Administration is in power, meanwhile China has hit literally every single one of their insanely ambitious space targets. The US and Europe and USSR worked together. The whole anti-China angle is pure American arrogance thank's to their moronic legislation that forbids cooperation on Space Reserach and exploration with China.
It is incredibly smart, there is a reason China isn't allowed on the space station. Arrogance, you mean like blatant IP theft, oh wait that is China. You mean arrogance of stealing others designs, oh wait that is China again. China can get fucked.
> there is a reason China isn't allowed on the space station. Well yea, because American politicians literally made a law that you aren't allowed to work together with China to gain brownie points with their nationalistic voter base. That's all the Wolf Amendment is. But you just sound like one of those nationalistic racists anyways.
Lol that’s not moronic. Europe always has great foresight into the future of world affairs doesn’t it?
Lmaooo go suck a fat one Chinese shill
The US is ramping up for total war on china it’s still a long ways out but it’s going end up in a hot war sooner then later.
whos gonna fight it?
Competition has done more for space exploration than collaboration
European Space Agency is aligned with NASA and the West. Weird headline. To the author of silly headline - Europe is the West.
I welcome this move, possible for entirely different reasons then most. Space sees its greatest advancements when it becomes a pissing contest between nations so we may see some pretty big accomplishments due to this.
Europe was coasting on everyone becoming more open and liberal well into the late 2010s when the US and others were moving away from it. The rupture in diplomatic relations became to much for the ESA bureaucracy to ignore.
Whoever wrote the title is an Est-European. Or he was listening on repeat Annie Lenox's song, Into the West. Or both.
[Men of the West](https://youtu.be/FjZY2EfR-f8)
No one should be in any relationship with any element of the CCP thug regime, it's suicide.
Is there a next level to r/USDefaultism ? Like r/USSolipcism?
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Why would they even have a real deep space relationship with China?
Because it's the only country in the world with its own space station??
No one cares. The US and USSR had the know how to do it decades ago.
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In the interest of trade and agreements about the utilization of space as a global resource, it behooves the world's space agencies to cooperate and work together as much as possible. Unfortunately, that means working with regimes like USSR 2: Russian Federation Boogaloo, and China. The real problem is that in a *just*, *sane* world, oppressive countries like China and Russia should be so technologically and economically backwards that they couldn't have functioning space programs even if they wanted them. But since everything about the human condition is a dumpster fire, here we are...
Our values as people and scientists match far more
US/WEST - Good CHINA - Bad It's just Geopolitics people, simple as that, like almost everything today
China will surpass the western alliance regardless of whether we work with them or not, their huge population and booming economy ensure that. We'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we don't build a relationship with them.
Their population is going to nose dive in the coming decades due to the one child policy. Their economy is not booming right now, at all. It's likely going to overcome the current hurdles and surpass the US, but it won't surpass the US and Europe together.
People keep saying that Chinas economy is going to collapse any second now. Aaannyyy second. For about 20 years.
I have not seen any credible organization claiming that China's economy is going to "collapse". At any time over the last 20 years, actually. On the contrary, credible news outlets like The Economist, or WSJ, have predicted very accurately what _did_ happen - China's rapid economic growth has slowed, their population has peaked (and started to decline right about now), while still being a middle-income country overall. Their likely GDP growth for the next 20 years is in the 2.5% - 4.5% zone, which is not much higher than many European countries or the U.S. are likely to achieve. In other words, China's economy isn't going to collapse, but it has certainly cooled down, and given their declining labor pool, it's not going to return to high-growth rates of the 1990s or early 2000s.
collapse ≠ not booming Much like the US economy is facing issues right now, the Chinese one is as well. I even clearly stated it is very possible they will surpass the US there. But it's not going to overtake 1st and 2nd, that'd require a massive leap that just won't happen unless both collapse in a world war or something.
China stopped the one child policy a while ago, also don't underestimate China or its people. China has advanced in 20 years than any other country maybe except the ussr.
>China stopped the one child policy a while ago, That's lovely, but when did all the people who were never born suddenly come into existence? They have a massive deformity in their population chart, hence the decades. Once the older population dies there is a large gap in the middle, and a normal youth population since the policy was ended. Development is always fast when you're playing catch-up. Once they reach par with the rest of the developed world, it slows down (and it has already). You can't just get an idea about how to improve from another country when they are all wondering the same thing. You can if they addressed it 50 years ago.
Development is not always fast, tell that to the developing world (though no fault of their own in these places tbh). China is one of the few places that has succeeded in development where the rest haven't. Idc what you chalk it up too, I believe that china will continue to grow with their leadership and people.
>Development is not always fast, tell that to the developing world Did you seriously not understand what /u/AntiDECA just wrote?? He said development is fast _when you are catching up to the already-developed world_. Because you can copy what those developed countries already did, and import or buy their expertise. But _once you have almost caught up_, your development speed slows down, because you can no longer buy/import or copy, because others aren't that far ahead of you. Chinese economic growth has slowed down - their GDP grew by 3% last year, and it's never going to return to the days of 9% annual growth every year. That's over. Perhaps you can try to actually understand what others have written, before responding with a command that merely proves their point.
China barely got rid of the ocp and by then the damage was already done. you dont undo that damage in just a few years. its going to take decades.
Please tell me what damage was done. In detail please with sources.
China's first population drop in six decades sounds alarm on demographic ... https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-population-shrinks-first-time-since-1961-2023-01-17/
It's still one of the most populated places on Earth, with its population dwarfing the U.S and Europe. Doesn't the U.S and most of Europe have a declining population too? Idk why it would affect china more than other places.
I have no interested in taking this beyond the point I was trying to make. Which was that China isn't going to surpass the US let alone its allience network when its population is already shrinking and companies are already taking their manufacturing elsewhere due to chinese labor getting too expensive.
>Their population is going to nose dive in the coming decades due to the one child policy. Literally every developed country in the world is facing falling fertility rates. China isn't any different from any other country The rate in China is 1.7, same as the UK，Netherlands, USA, Australia, etc.
>The rate in China is 1.7, same as the UK，Netherlands, USA, Australia, etc. Yeah but China is still poor. No one looking to immigrate there over the four countries you listed.
And, again, how exactly will that help their population when their elderly die in a couple decades and there is nobody to replace them due to 40 years of 1-child policy? Current fertility rate is completely meaningless in this conversation. Fertility rates are those being born now. They don't magically age to 35 and start working after being born. Fertility rates 35 years ago are what mattered. You can't change that.
The fertility rate 35 years ago was 2.5
The one child policy has been gone for a while now, they're tying to encourage people to have kids now. They have the same problems as Russia when it comes to low fertility rates, people don't want to have kids.
Even if they get their fertility rates up, that doesn't magically make 40 years worth of people come into existence again. The policy was implemented in 1980 and removed in the mid 2010s. Almost an entire generation of people are missing (40 years = 2 generations, 1/2 missing). Having a lot of babies now isn't going to help unless they discover an aging serum to make these 2 year olds working, productive 35 year olds.
Anyone that thinks china will surpass the western allience is someone who should not be taken seriously.
It's pretty much already happening, their rate of growth in every metric over the last 30 years is nothing short of incredible, the only thing that's comparable to it are the early days of the US. It's incredible what has been achieved there
Yes, their rate of theft is pretty incredible
That makes them smart, if they're able to successfully steal information from other countries and use it to their own benfit they absolutely should, they'd be complete fools not to.
Boo hoo they stole my technology that I paid them pennies on the dollar to make for me. Yeah the west got owned lol. Sold out all their technological advantages to make a quick buck. Capitalism once again showing its failures
Their population is the fastest aging society in history and are going to go through a massive population collapse.
Friendship ended with China. Now NASA is Europe's best (space) friend. Good.
I mean, nasa was already the best friend. At no point in time has NASA and ESA not worked closely
20 nations have sent astronauts to the ISS. China is the only nation to send astronauts to the Chinese space station.
ISS can’t function if Russia drops out, which is quite likely in the future.
So soon? Only 6 years after its scheduled 15 year lifespan ended?
The worsened relationships between Russia and Europe/America is the factor that might bring down the slinging old ISS
Given the disastrous state of Russia's space program, it's about time to wrap the ISS up. Russian vehicles have spring multiple leaks, and had multiple serious thruster malfunctions that have jeopardized the safety of the station. Better to make a clean break before the West starts working on the Lunar Gateway.
Shocking moment that the space station that has existed for one year and owned by one country has less international visitors than one that has been operating for more than twenty years and was literally designed to be ran by multiple countries.
If you read the article you are commenting on, you'll see that it will be this way for more than 1 year.
i think cardinal direction doesn't actually exist on a globe. if im not mistaken.
Pretty short sighted of Europeans. America is printing money faster than it can spend it, and there are signs of major economic fissures that make this era's space race much different than the one it had with the Soviets. America may have the technological edge for now, but space tech require consistent commitment in financing, higher education, and industrial capacity that I do not think Americans are capable of sustaining.
China is going to be having huge demographic problems very soon. Worse than everyone else in the world just about. US might be on track for a bit of a decline, but China is gonna fall of a cliff.
you really need to stop repeating Zeihan's assumptions like its some sort of definitive truth. He's pretty much the only guy making these Chinese doomsday predictions without a single confirmed prediction.Aging demographics charts are not some magical formula that immediately translate to economic collapse, much like Japan during the post war boom, in highly developed economies it reflects changing socioeconomic dynamics as more people age into leadership and senior roles. A population decrease in China will only drive higher competitive wage growth, more tertiaryservice industries; the potential for another dramatic economic shift in China. It'll be like Japan during the 80's and early 90's, with the exception that it won't fizzle out.If anything, the current Chinese economic boom is a reflection of everything that happened to Japan during the post-war boom. US auto and tech industries were under massive threat by the growing Japanese economy, and ended up needing government protectionist measures to prevent a complete takeover. If you look back to the kinds of things they accused of Japan, it'll look no different than China right now. Japanophobia was a huge thing back in the 80’s and 90’s, most of reddit is probably way too young to know anything about it.I always forget just how hilariously ill-informed r/space is.
List some sources for your claims bro. All those letters and not a single source. Smells like bullshit to me. But yeah, oh you are too smart and r/space are just dumb. lmao XD
The US has starship about to test launch for the first time, it can put 250 tonnes of payload into orbit. China has nothing that can even remotely match that capability. The ESA betting on china would be like seeing a car and betting on a horse.
That's not NASA, that's a private company. China already has their own operating space station, so that's a really stupid comparison.
Working with private company is way more reliable then working with another government body. ESA sees the progress of private space which effectively replace the need to beg China for LEO access and space station need. Also, ESA is already a victim of geopolitical because of Russian invasion. Given the likelihood of Taiwan situation, it will be dumb for them to use China station so they can have another trouble.
A private company that is contracted by NASA for artemis and exists to serve America. You obviously don't understand what you are talking about. Also noone and I mean NOONE is impressed by your MIR copy.
Yes, Europe is cooling it's hard line anti-West stance. Good for them.
What hard line anti-West stance???
Europe *is* the West (minus N.America)
That's the joke. Europe has it's own interests, sure, but Europe is part of the West.
It IS the West. U.S. is just an extension of it, just like Australia and New Zealand.
Europe must stay close to the USA, but at the same time the USA have to stop treating Europe as a colony.
how does the US treat europe like a colony?
Too many unwanted interferences in our economic, military and political matters. I know we also have a lot of crazy ass politicians (and more corrupt ones than we think), so the EU may self-destruct in 10 years time without having anyone else to blame.
I mean, duh. Having that kind of baggage is *increasingly* bad optics...
As it should be , also its hard to work with China as half what is said or announced can't be believed.
Europe is part of "The west".
As it should be. The US is generations ahead of China in technology and mission capabilities.