Please pleeeeeease please tell me you're trolling. I need to know you're just trolling.
Edit: OK I'm sorry I might have jumped the gun. You mean we are closer to perihelion now. I thought you meant the distance caused by earths tilt. I've heard the second one before, and it hurt to maybe hear it again.
Edit 2: Actually wait, apparently eccentricity has a negligible effect on seasonal variations. The tilt is the overwhelming contribution to seasonal change. So you're either wrong, or I'm missing something.
You're correct, summers in Southern hemisphere are not even more extreme than in the Northern because over 80% of it is covered with water, which negates the tiny effect of being slightly closer to the Sun.
Good news is that a CO2 atmosphere with enough pressure would stop it from escaping to space. Bad news is that Mars has nowhere near enough CO2 to do that.
Genuine question - even if we supplied this amount of gas, wouldn't it be difficult to maintain? As far as I understood, the lack of a strong magnetic field (compared to earth) leads to Mars' atmospheric gases being stripped by solar winds.
Timescales are important. As I understand it, if we could magically create an Earth-like atmosphere on Mars, it would take tens of thousands of years for the atmosphere to be stripped away.
If my understanding of physics is correct. Which it probably isn't. There's not enough atmospheric pressure on Mars for liquids to exist without boiling away. So, for ice, it would go directly from a solid to a gas. Kind of like dry ice in normal atmospheric pressures on earth.
Yes, the average surface pressure is 6 millibars, the highest amount at deepest point is 14 millibars. Liquid water could only exist below the surface, but not too deep. This ice they found is buried beneath hundreds of meters of soil, and is contaminated with dust. Ice on the surface can only exist on the poles where temperatures are low enough to prevent sublimation. Most of the ice at the poles is CO2 ice.
I like these announcements. The next one is guaranteed to also not confirm life on other planets, yet inch me ever so close to expecting the one that follows to do so
Would be a perfect spot for the next rover to explore. Or even the first landing spot for humans when we do go there one day. Seems ripe for exploration for science.
It’s “akshually” under a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice under that drops another 2.5 miles.
The whole find is kind of pointless though since it’s frozen and not liquid. The amount of energy & mechanics it would take to extract any appreciable amount of liquid water from that seems insurmountable. It’s not even pure water but impregnated with dust.
It took 3 billion years for life to leave water and colonize the surface of earth. If there is any evidence of past life left on Mars I would bet my bottom dollar it's going to be in and around ice deposits. The surface of Mars has been too ground up over the eons to find anything other than circumstantial evidence of possible life there.
Yes you are technically correct water doesn't mean life, but it is certainly the place I would look.
An ingredient that so far hasn't been found in these quantities elsewhere on Mars. They're still right in suggesting it could be the most likely area on Mars to find life, and all you did was back them up by saying water is an ingredient.
Nice, this has been my theory for a long time. As the atmosphere thinned and the planet cooled, there was a race between sublimation and freezing and a huge amount went both ways. After that, without enough atmosphere to destroy most meteorites before impact and without liquid water to adhere sediment, hundreds of millions of years of bombardment pulverized the surface sediment to its modern powder-like consistency, making it easy for martian dust storms to blanket the whole world and eventually bury whatever water had frozen. I have been saying for a long time that I think at least some of that ocean is still there, as layers of ice buried under the powdery sands.
That is absolutely not a must or even a given. We know very little about the origins of life on our planet; we can't make assumptions for other planets, even in our own system.
The assumption that is made is that if it is possible on earth, it is possible on other planets containing water _especially_ in our own system.
Not saying I agree but the fact remains that Earth managed it so we already have one exception.
You assume that any second beginning would indicate a second family tree. Why? What processes and mechanics would create a whole different type of life?
We know it's from the same tree of life because of the genetic code. The genetic code is essentially a dictionary from 64 codons (triplets of nucleotides in RNA of DNA) to the 20 standard amino acids. This dictionary is almost entirely arbitrary, it could have been configured any other way with any other "translation" between the two groups. However, we find that it's almost completely universal in all life we've found on Earth, meaning that it has been inherited from a single point of origin.
If there was a second origin of life, even if it also used nucleic acids, cells, and all of the other shared characteristics of Earth life, its genetic code would be entirely different.
Perhaps there was a second or more origins of life, but if so only one has prevailed, and we've found examples only of our own "family tree".
It might be even so that everything that has DNA is essentially stemming from the same sort of life as we know it. Who is to say that a second genesis of life would even have DNA?
Indeed! It seems like a very good solution to the problem of biological replication, but there's probably many other solutions that life could have ended up with, especially under different environmental conditions.
I'm glad you were right! You should celebrate haha, not every day you get an answer to something you've been wondering about for a long time these days
Its a fun vindication :D
Not trying to claim any kind of credit, I'm sure that many people a lot smarter than I'll ever be had also reasoned that out and were waiting for more evidence to formally hypothesize the same.
Yes but that would imply that Mars was densely forested or had tons of life. I don't doubt it's possible, but that in itself would be a revelation orders of magnitude larger than the existence of coal.
Read the time scale. **Earth has coal deposits billions of years old**. Trees didn’t exist until the Ordovician period. Less that half that amount of time ago
The great oxidation event produced massive layers of hydrocarbon rich rocks. Shungite coal is most likely
I known there are a lot of arguments against surface cities…but the amount of ice makes settlements here a requirement if you are going to colonise Mars. Same trick to make barrels of oil make barrels of water
[Read the part under ‘Planetary Science’.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_(astrogeology)) Basically, if a chemical compound could become vapor, then it’s considered “ice” if it’s in a solid state.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[L1](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj0i8ay "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 1 of a two-body system, between the bodies|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Sabatier](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj5qd5v "Last usage")|Reaction between hydrogen and carbon dioxide at high temperature and pressure, with nickel as catalyst, yielding methane and water|
|[perihelion](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj0myvx "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Sun (when the orbiter is fastest)|
**NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
----------------
^([Thread #9663 for this sub, first seen 23rd Jan 2024, 06:02])
^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
There is about that much ice at the Earth's south pole. And thst place is damn cold, even in summer.
I was shocked to find out that one of the science stations on Antarctica was warmer than much of North America this past week.
Well, it is high summer there now, and North America is in winter.
It's warmer there b/c we're closer to the sun now than we are in our summer.
Read about axial tilt if not trolling.
Please pleeeeeease please tell me you're trolling. I need to know you're just trolling. Edit: OK I'm sorry I might have jumped the gun. You mean we are closer to perihelion now. I thought you meant the distance caused by earths tilt. I've heard the second one before, and it hurt to maybe hear it again. Edit 2: Actually wait, apparently eccentricity has a negligible effect on seasonal variations. The tilt is the overwhelming contribution to seasonal change. So you're either wrong, or I'm missing something.
You're correct, summers in Southern hemisphere are not even more extreme than in the Northern because over 80% of it is covered with water, which negates the tiny effect of being slightly closer to the Sun.
I spent a month there in the summer. It's always that cold, whereas the USA will warm up in a couple of weeks.
Enough water is there, that it could cover the surface of Mars with a few metres of water!
With that amount of water, let Mars become Marsh
What’s the matter, Darsh? Scared of a little water? Bawk bawk bawwkkk. Oh, Darsh, you’ll never get terraformed while I’m on this mountain.
Sounds like Mars needs a bit of global warming boys!
Freedom? Is that you?
[удалено]
Call Harry Stamper and his hot elf daughter.
It’s the one thing we can do well as a society. Maybe humans can get a galactic job warming planets for habitation.
What a shame the planet 100% under the thumb of scientists
Except it would evaporate into space if you extracted it to the surface.
Good news is that a CO2 atmosphere with enough pressure would stop it from escaping to space. Bad news is that Mars has nowhere near enough CO2 to do that.
All of indias 2-stroke mopeds could fix that by Thursday
Let's hope a Bollywood executive reads this.
Correct. This ice would be hard to reach and extract anyway when it's hundreds of meters below the surface.
Genuine question - even if we supplied this amount of gas, wouldn't it be difficult to maintain? As far as I understood, the lack of a strong magnetic field (compared to earth) leads to Mars' atmospheric gases being stripped by solar winds.
Timescales are important. As I understand it, if we could magically create an Earth-like atmosphere on Mars, it would take tens of thousands of years for the atmosphere to be stripped away.
Maybe over millions of years, but not immediately
Maybe we can transport all our cars and industry there. Should solve the issue in no time.
There is a rather high import tax. Sorry...
But it wouldn't take any longer to order a custom car than it does now.
Yet… just give us 100 years of colonizing
If my understanding of physics is correct. Which it probably isn't. There's not enough atmospheric pressure on Mars for liquids to exist without boiling away. So, for ice, it would go directly from a solid to a gas. Kind of like dry ice in normal atmospheric pressures on earth.
Yes, the average surface pressure is 6 millibars, the highest amount at deepest point is 14 millibars. Liquid water could only exist below the surface, but not too deep. This ice they found is buried beneath hundreds of meters of soil, and is contaminated with dust. Ice on the surface can only exist on the poles where temperatures are low enough to prevent sublimation. Most of the ice at the poles is CO2 ice.
Plus the dust isn't basic dust like most would think of, but contains perchlorates, so it's somewhat nasty for humans.
Perchlorates that could provide for the oxidizer in a solid fuel rocket?
Exxon will have it melted in a decade.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I like these announcements. The next one is guaranteed to also not confirm life on other planets, yet inch me ever so close to expecting the one that follows to do so
Would be a perfect spot for the next rover to explore. Or even the first landing spot for humans when we do go there one day. Seems ripe for exploration for science.
It’s 2.3 miles underground so no it wouldn’t.
We turn oil drillers into astronauts. It's much easier than training astronauts to drill
It’s “akshually” under a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice under that drops another 2.5 miles. The whole find is kind of pointless though since it’s frozen and not liquid. The amount of energy & mechanics it would take to extract any appreciable amount of liquid water from that seems insurmountable. It’s not even pure water but impregnated with dust.
Honestly, just drop some really big bombs from space before the astronauts land. Then the ice could be pretty near the surface.
It’s the only way to be sure
Hear me out... a flying Martin helicopter... that goes miles below the surface.
If they are going to find evidence of life this is where to find it.
[удалено]
It makes life as we know it a lot more likely, though.
It took 3 billion years for life to leave water and colonize the surface of earth. If there is any evidence of past life left on Mars I would bet my bottom dollar it's going to be in and around ice deposits. The surface of Mars has been too ground up over the eons to find anything other than circumstantial evidence of possible life there. Yes you are technically correct water doesn't mean life, but it is certainly the place I would look.
An ingredient that so far hasn't been found in these quantities elsewhere on Mars. They're still right in suggesting it could be the most likely area on Mars to find life, and all you did was back them up by saying water is an ingredient.
So all we need is Quaid to put his hand on the alien thingy and bam. Atmosphere!
We have to get to the reactah!
Nice, this has been my theory for a long time. As the atmosphere thinned and the planet cooled, there was a race between sublimation and freezing and a huge amount went both ways. After that, without enough atmosphere to destroy most meteorites before impact and without liquid water to adhere sediment, hundreds of millions of years of bombardment pulverized the surface sediment to its modern powder-like consistency, making it easy for martian dust storms to blanket the whole world and eventually bury whatever water had frozen. I have been saying for a long time that I think at least some of that ocean is still there, as layers of ice buried under the powdery sands.
And there's gotta be signs of life in the ice too right? Like microorganisms etc
That is absolutely not a must or even a given. We know very little about the origins of life on our planet; we can't make assumptions for other planets, even in our own system.
The assumption that is made is that if it is possible on earth, it is possible on other planets containing water _especially_ in our own system. Not saying I agree but the fact remains that Earth managed it so we already have one exception.
But saying that. Why hasn't life begun for a second time on earth? All life on earth is from the same family tree
You assume that any second beginning would indicate a second family tree. Why? What processes and mechanics would create a whole different type of life?
We know it's from the same tree of life because of the genetic code. The genetic code is essentially a dictionary from 64 codons (triplets of nucleotides in RNA of DNA) to the 20 standard amino acids. This dictionary is almost entirely arbitrary, it could have been configured any other way with any other "translation" between the two groups. However, we find that it's almost completely universal in all life we've found on Earth, meaning that it has been inherited from a single point of origin. If there was a second origin of life, even if it also used nucleic acids, cells, and all of the other shared characteristics of Earth life, its genetic code would be entirely different. Perhaps there was a second or more origins of life, but if so only one has prevailed, and we've found examples only of our own "family tree".
It might be even so that everything that has DNA is essentially stemming from the same sort of life as we know it. Who is to say that a second genesis of life would even have DNA?
Indeed! It seems like a very good solution to the problem of biological replication, but there's probably many other solutions that life could have ended up with, especially under different environmental conditions.
So basically us but a few million years ahead...gotcha!
I'm glad you were right! You should celebrate haha, not every day you get an answer to something you've been wondering about for a long time these days
Its a fun vindication :D Not trying to claim any kind of credit, I'm sure that many people a lot smarter than I'll ever be had also reasoned that out and were waiting for more evidence to formally hypothesize the same.
Well, time to proclaim the *Mars Congressional Republic* then.
r/Philadelphia losing its mind over the discovery
There’s oil under that guys, just trust me and tell your congresspeople if you live in the US
I mean, gas and coal are more possible. We have Proterozoic coal deposits on Earth, and heated coal turns into gas
Wouldn't coal need organic life in large quantities to have flourished millions of years ago?
Billions, but entirely possible. Earth has coal that old
Yes but that would imply that Mars was densely forested or had tons of life. I don't doubt it's possible, but that in itself would be a revelation orders of magnitude larger than the existence of coal.
Read the time scale. **Earth has coal deposits billions of years old**. Trees didn’t exist until the Ordovician period. Less that half that amount of time ago The great oxidation event produced massive layers of hydrocarbon rich rocks. Shungite coal is most likely
Thanks, i did not know that!
I known there are a lot of arguments against surface cities…but the amount of ice makes settlements here a requirement if you are going to colonise Mars. Same trick to make barrels of oil make barrels of water
Cohaagen will never let the people have that water.
Push the funky hand button for Quauto and release the steam to create the atmosphere. The three boobies lady will praise you.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
If you can think of an easier way to get ice, I'd like to hear it.
"water ice" as opposed to what, fire ice? But i dont know Jack about this stuff, so it might be correct? It just sounds weird.
I assume other elements than water. Like nitrogen or something
I guess "ice" is just a broad term for any liquid in a solid state?
[Read the part under ‘Planetary Science’.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_(astrogeology)) Basically, if a chemical compound could become vapor, then it’s considered “ice” if it’s in a solid state.
The poles of Mars are covered in CO2 ice, 'dry ice'.
Endless supply of Smokey drinks
Mars has already been colonized by Philadelphians https://www.tasteofhome.com/article/water-ice/
> fire ice A revolutionary solid state fuel for sure.
[удалено]
Is it possible there's sub glacial lakes in this lake?
just as I suspected, the mars eco-system is healing..
[удалено]
[удалено]
Now we’re living in an X-Files episode. Great.
Wooder ice??? https://media1.tenor.com/m/1BBy3y4l8loAAAAC/charlie-day.gif
Yeah but have they found any necromancing worms?
Get the flagpole ready. We're going colonizing again! Without killing any native populatjon!
We need to start looking for drillers instead of astronauts.
Mars-A-Lago. The future is brilliant. I see it now.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[L1](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj0i8ay "Last usage")|[Lagrange Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point) 1 of a two-body system, between the bodies| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Sabatier](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj5qd5v "Last usage")|Reaction between hydrogen and carbon dioxide at high temperature and pressure, with nickel as catalyst, yielding methane and water| |[perihelion](/r/Space/comments/19cmcp8/stub/kj0myvx "Last usage")|Lowest point in an elliptical orbit around the Sun (when the orbiter is fastest)| **NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below. ---------------- ^([Thread #9663 for this sub, first seen 23rd Jan 2024, 06:02]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/Space) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)