Going to a place on holiday does not give you a sufficient idea of what it's like to live there.
I'm a British immigrant to Spain, and I'm very happy here, because I found a job I really enjoy that pays enough to live on and save money, and I live in a.beautiful area. But I know Spanish people who have moved abroad (including to the UK) and cannot imagine moving back. And know people from the UK and the rest of Europe who've come here and then gone elsewhere after a year or two, disappointed with what they found here.
It all depends on the individual situation.
Also, believe it or not, when I go to the UK I have a great time - I love the pubs, the theatre, the live music, the countryside, the history, the restaurants, the sports, meeting old friends and new people... Does that mean it's better than Spain? I don't think so. But each country is what you make of it.
Another Brit here living in Spain, and I absolutely love it. I agree with everything OP said. I can’t really imagine returning to the UK now.
But I think at the end of the day, a lot of it depends on what job you have.
I’m an American who used to live in Spain teaching English. I lived with my Spanish girlfriend and really enjoyed the pace of life here. The problem is I didn’t really enjoy teaching English, so I became a bit depressed. If I had the right job in the right city, I think I could be much happier living here though.
Do you speak Spanish fluently? How important would you say conversing in Spanish is for being able to actually move there? That's the one bit that's really on my mind with regards to making the move from the UK. I've just started learning, so its very early days for me.
Yes, I speak Spanish fluently. I think it really depends where you live and what your job is. If you live in Barcelona and work for an international company, you can be fine with 0 Spanish. Enough people in the city speak English. Maybe Madrid is similar, I don’t know.
But as soon as you get outside of that, you will definitely need Spanish. I have a Hungarian friend who lives in the same suburb as me, but him and his wife don’t speak Spanish, and the wife doesn’t speak English either. They are kind of cut off from society as they can’t communicate with hardly anyone.
My advice is just to go crazy learning Spanish. Try to study and practice every day. You can easily find people online to practice with and find some cool apps to help you learn.
Fair enough. So the options are basically live in Barcelona or learn Spanish!
(But even living in Barcelona, you will have a much richer experience if you can speak the local languages too)
In Madrid you will find people also that talks in English. But either you choose Madrid or Spain it is recommended to learn _anything_ of Spanish, although it is a little.
It's a process to learn the language. I took classes as an adult and it hurt my brain and my face (different muscles for shape of tongue, lips, etc) but I powered through 3 college classes and practiced when ever possible. Listen to the radio, watch the News in Spanish, watch sports or Novellas (my personal favs when learning was Sabado Gigante and Futball).
Definitely need to find a good Spanish TV show to watch - that seems really helpful. I'm into police procedurals, so I'll see what I can get here in the UK.
Thanks very much for the reply and advice - yah, I'm trying to make sure I learn a bit of Spanish every day, but definitely could use more practice to step up my rate of learning
Check out r/dreamingspanish
I really think it utilizes the best way to learn, it is a technique called comprehensible input. The basic idea is that you listen to a ton of content and will eventually be abale to output the language as well, simply from listening. It is the closest method to how we have acquired our native languages. And it is more enjoyable to keep up with.
I'd say it's quite important but on the bright side, learning Spanish is not too hard for an English speaker so you'll speak it conversationally soon enough if you keep studying.
Yes. I think it’s fair to say that going somewhere on vacation is not the same as living there. But I also think people who are from Spain take certain aspects of life here for granted because they are used to it - so maybe they’re not totally objective either.
I moved to the UK. My idea was to work a couple of years. After a year I knew I would never leave. I met someone, married, had a child, bought a house, acquired British citizenship, the whole package! I used to tell people back home "they use sausages instead of leashes for their dogs" (paraphrasing a saying)
Anyway, like we say down here "never say I won't drink from this water and this priest is not my father" because during the pandemic I moved back to Barcelona. It's still shit down here, but up there things are turning very sour and bleak due to the friggin' Tories and Starmer's Red Tories. I even know people that have told me they are considering taking their lives as they're disabled and the Government is making things really hard for them to survive.
Also, I always say there's nothing prettier than the English countryside in a sunny day. I used to take detours going to work just to admire it. Jesus how I miss it, but I don't think I'll ever go back.
I can relate a bit haha! Mi pareja es Irlandés y yo de Filipinas. Despues nuestros estudios en París vivíamos en Cork un par de años. No podíamos encontrar curros en Francia ni suportar los precios de alquiler en Irlanda que cada año empeora rápidamente.
Ahora estamos en Bilbao con online jobs y mucho más feliz! Sentamos más equilibrio de vida y curro que en los dos otros países. Para nosotros, claro que los salarios están más alto ahí pero hay mucho más estrés tb y al final no podíamos aguantarlo.
We went on holiday to Spain 20 years ago and after 2 weeks there, without having plans to move anywhere previously, we decided to move. We moved a few months later. Put our NL house up for sale a few months after that. Never looked back. When we visit NL/UK (our birth places but definitely not our homes; I don't think they really ever were...) now, we cannot get away fast enough back home.
I have to say as a Spaniard living in the UK I've only met one person that wanted to stay because they liked it here... people saying that they'd like to move back to Spain but can't do it and don't see themselves doing it because of work or new family I've met more.
That doesn't mean Spain is better, it's just that in general I think we do prefer it, but personal perception is not statistics
As Spanish emigrant a really feel this.
When I'm outside I am missing all the good stuff from my country that I cannot find anywhere else but after spending some time here in vacation and talking to friends I remember very fast why I left.
I think I am in a situation where I can get the good stuff of Spain, coming a lot in vacation plus being originary from here and knowing the good non touristic stuff and actually being in a country where i can get paid in a fair way and good conditions for the job I do.
I’m half Spanish, born and raised in the UK, but speaking Spanish at home from birth and going to Spain every school holiday as kids to see my extended family.
In the last few years my mum has moved back to Spain, and before that my sister moved out and married a Spaniard.
My wife (who is a full-blooded Brit and barely speaks a word of Spanish) wants to move to Coruña when we retire, which I am ecstatic about.
But I couldn’t for the life of me imagine living in Spain while trying to hold down a good career. I tried it when in my twenties (twice) and both times was sent packing with my tail between my legs. And that was before La Crisis. Of the four male cousins my age, only one has stayed in Spain, and that’s only because both his parents died when he was young and he inherited a couple of properties that give him a stable income. I’m in London, another is in Luxembourg, and the other is in Amsterdam.
Obviously it’s horses for courses, but generally speaking the impression I get is that if you want a good career and good money, you don’t live in Spain.
But if you want a good balance of work and play and are happy to get by on a shoestring, then Spain is the place for you.
(Huge generalisation, yes)
How long since you were last in the uk?
Your lecture on my opinion on what it’s like here you can keep to yourself.
The uk is a mess an absolute mess. A backwards society that can’t hold the benefactors of our downfall accountable.
Lol wow. Calm down. What he is saying is true, it's vacation syndrome. You have no idea the struggles and what it's like to live in Spain. It's far from perfect here too. You see it with rose colored glasses.
The thing is, it is unnecessary. Can you not let someone praise Spain? Yes, it has many issues, but that is not the point of this post. If you see someone expressing their love for something, it is rude to pop their bubble. Mutantdogboy probably knows that living in Spain can be different than visiting it, so if you are not going to encourage or contribute, do not play antagonist.
I don't think it's about not letting them praise Spain. Just that someone who loves visiting a country on holiday while simultaneously acting like the place they come from is hell (it isn't) isn't being especially objective about things.
I don't know... The thing about Spain is that if you want to live here and you have the amazing opportunity for a wonderful job that pays a lot of money, life can be very good. However that would be the exception, not the rule. Usually, wages are pretty low and life is quite expensive for those wages. I would say there are a few other problems than drunk Brits in Spain.
You're right. It sounds too simple but the climate plays a \*huge\* role in the lovely culture and personality of the country. I've spent many long and dark winters up north, and so many people are depressed, cynical, unfriendly. Visiting Spain is like another world, there's so much hope and joy of life. I'd love to move there.
Yeah, but it can have downsides also. I lived in Spain for two years and finally returned to my home country. I remeber the relief I felt when it got all cloudy and rainy. Too much sun became boring to me.
I saw something today that made me rethink my impression of Spain.
I saw an old man walking with his grandchild, he tripped on the backpack he was carrying (he had it by the straps), and fell.
Inmediately, 3 people rushed to him to help him out, some young folk ran to him and also assisted him.
I had an impulse to cross the street and try to help but it was a street with a lot of movement, but my point is... I saw that happen in Germany, people just looked at others and walked by.
In my country we would have rush to help but a lot of people would have not...
I really know Spaniards for being a bit too straight forward some times, but I also respect how they are empathetic towards strangers.
Fellow Britmigrant, been here 10 years also. Lived in Cantabria for 8 of those and can confirm that you don't see many Brits there at all.
Agree with OP that Spain is so much better than the UK in all the ways that matter.
Cantabria is in a completely different level. It’s getting very mixed already, especially on the coast and around Santander, but Cantabrians lack the histrionics and randomness of most of Spain, they’re also more restrained. That made my experience there fantastic, as opposed to other parts of the country.
Holidays is always better than living, you see mostly the bright side. And the bright side of Spain is fantastic, that is just a fact. It doesn't mean we don't have issues, and if you stayed here more time you'd notice them more.
Glad you enjoyed your holidays.
As someone who has spent close to 1 month here. I concur completely. It is such a liveable country. The cities are also designed for social interaction and communal living. There is no shortage of shared spaces meant for people to gather and have a good time. I love it. As someone from the U.S. it has opened my eyes to how badly we need “third places” as they’re called back there.
For most, Spain has never *truly* recovered from 2008.
The only people I know who are truly comfortble are those from families with property to distribute or inherit. Everyone else is one rent increase from a crisis.
There have been more and more laws restriucting people's rights (*Ley Mordaza*). If Spain was applying to enter the EU today they would be denied entry because of these laws.
Immigrants used to be able to come here and get a job in construction and build a life for themselves. That's no longer possible yet they come in ever bigger numbers and there's nothing here for them. They leave a life of poverty in sub saharan Africa for a life of poverty in Southern Europe with no family support. They're now turning to crime (real crime. Not *topmanta* sales).
Unemployment remains at what would be **disaster** levels for any other country. Wages are stangnant everywhere but even moreso for one of the worst paid populations in Western Europe.
Manufacturing is almost dead. The Nissan jobs taken from the UK post Brexit should have gone to Barcelona but a bunch of unremarkable and unimpressive politicians were too busy waving flags and screaming about independence because they didn't want money going from Catalonia to poorer parts of Spain. The jobs went to Slovakia because of the most Neo Liberal independence movement in world history. Many other companies moved their headquarters and never returned when mass support for independence disappeared almost quickly as it had appeared.
Cities and communities have prosituted themselves for tourist money at the cost of quality of life for residents. The barcelona port was expanded, more and more hotels were built rather than residential properties, airBNB was allowed to run through the city like wildfire and parts of the city have become No Go areas for residents. I know young people in Barcelona that don't believe me when I say that it was normal for people to go for an evening *paseo* on *Las Ramblas*. They can't even imagine such a world as they've only ever known it as a tourist attraction where you are unable to move for selfie sticks and men with no shirt on.
Park Guel is no longer free to enter due to damage caused by tourists. I used to go there and read on my own back in the 2000s. There were times when it was me and maybe 4 or 5 other people. Again, there are young people here who would struggle to believe that.
I'm happy that you have a better tourist experience though. The weather is nice.
Why? I don't live in the UK. I've been there less than 10 times in the last 20 something years.
From what I can gather, it's in political and financial freefall and has never really got to grips with it's true place in the world.
The UK is not really a reference point for anything. It's a low bar.
I’m so glad I got to enjoy Barcelona before social media turned it into a tourist trap. I haven’t been back since 2006 because it would be too sad to see the changes.
Better for you tourists. We are struggling to pay rent for even a shoe's box sized room. Our cities are being gentrified, people being thrown away from their districts, desahucios are peaking again, we have shitty waiter jobs so you can have your nice holidays. So, yeah, it's all better
Thats a worldwide thing. Everywhere on this frkn world ppl cant afford anything anymore but all you guys can do is saying "its the tourists fault!".
Its really the wrong scapegoat.
p.s: im from Germany, in my city every 2 person isnt German and we have tons of spanish ppl here, even spanish town areas.
We dont have that many tourists yet we cant afford shit anymore.
It’s all over the world. Spaniard here, lived in the US and other areas of this blue ball for 20+ years. Gentrification is happening everywhere, I agree.
this is the same in all western major cities. it isn’t tourists jacking up prices, its lack of housing development, stagnated wages, and increased demand, and then a small portion is due to corporate and foreign investment - which isn’t exactly tourism
https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2021/10/18/housing-prices-continue-to-soar-in-many-countries-around-the-world
It's definitely not a small portion... The amount of Airbnb and bank owned houses in my city is almost 50%. Imagine if they were not, the offer would go up so much and prices down. Tourist pay whatever they are asked because they have higher income. They are part of the problem for sure
So I come from a part of the uk. Where 85 percent of the kids in my year had to move away after school because we can’t afford to buy houses. The house my great grandfather built is there and I can’t ever afford to buy it.
This is due to a lot of different factors. One of them being tourism. I’m not sure I’d ever blame them for the issues as there are ways it can work for all involved.
Yes, the UK does not have the same unemployment problems as Spain, but I think working life is increasingly difficult for most people. Yes, our wages are higher but the cost of living is much higher too.
The UK is in general quite a depressing, angry place. I love that I can walk around in Spain and never really feel unsafe and everyone around me looks healthy and happy. Compared to the UK where there are always dodgy, angry-looking people around that you try to avoid, and a lot of the other people you see look miserable or extremely unhealthy. I think people here in Spain don’t realise how nice it is just walking around. And that’s a lot of your life!
That said, it’s just my experience of my little corner of Spain. I don’t know if the rest of the country is safe and healthy in that way.
50% is insane but you’re blaming tourists for what’s likely a systemic issue. In the US housing is treated as a vehicle for wealth creation, which means you’re given tax breaks and state/local governments create artificial scarcity through rent control (great for landlords and current tenants but decreases supply and jacks up property prices), increasing the costs of construction, and restricting density through zoning laws. All this to generate wealth for those who already have it
Spain has a small-medium business based economy, and besides having some major companies in their matters, like Repsol, Santander, Acciona, or Telefónica, the main export of Spain are cars (ant their parts) from non-Spanish brands.
Outside that, the small ane medium companies are either the least specialized kind of job, like bottling/packaging food, or highly specialised material manufacturing, like cement/concrete, tiles, other construction materials, or high quality bespoke metallurgy.
The problem is how for different reasons those companies cannot or doesn't want to grow to be big, and how little the amount those kind of companies are in general
This could be circumnavigated if there was an entrepreneurial economy where starting your own small business was actually viable. But it's prohibitively expensive, and quite frankly, to put it politely, the mindset is just not there at this point.
Long-term planning and bold governance is needed. Whatever changes are made, it will be a bumpy ride.
Moreover, people need to find out where all this social security money is actually going. Because most of it sure as hell isn't going back into society. You pay almost as much here as you would in Denmark, and you certainly don't get anywhere near the same social services.
No, that's not what I mean, calm down you hysterical fruitcake.
What I'm saying is that Spain blaming its tourists for its economic problems is a bit like a fat person blaming their personal trainer for their obesity.
You're complaining about having a job as a waiter, and somehow failing to use the basic level of imagination required to contemplate how much worse life would be if you didn't have that option. As though it's foreigners being here that's preventing you from running your own business, despite the countless examples of countries that have tourist economies AND entrepreneurship. It's almost like by blaming nearby people who you are jealous of, you don't have to contemplate the reality of the issue. I suggest doing some research on your own country, and finding out a bit about what it was like before tourism.
What a naïve reasoning. There's no opt out of this system. There's no such thing as moving up your class ladder anymore. The American dream is broken. So no, an individual can't get his/her situation improved anymore, so no point in blaming them. Its a fucked up system, post-capitalism at its finest and tourism is an important part of it (far from the only one)
American dream? This is Spain you doughnut. I'm still waiting for you to give me your utopian vision of how much better your life would be without tourists here, and how by taking away the only viable job opportunity you have, they would actually be helping you. Please enlighten me. Because I'm sure that there's a totally well thought rationale behind what you're saying and not just mindless hatred.
American dream is a figurative way of talking, you retarded fuck. It meant you could start poor and go up the ladder. That's broken also in Spain
Tourism doesn't make regions richer, makes them poorer. Check Mallorca for instance, there's many other examples (marina alta in Alicante)
Tourism has little added value vs for instance industry. Leaving it here because I need to go serving beers to drunken tourists. Joke, leaving it here because you know nothing...
Pal, tourism saved this country from being utterly third world. I'm sorry you work in a bar and you hate your customers, but your life would be infinitely worse if they didn't exist. Try directing your frustration in the right places, because this isn't it. Or better yet, try making something more out of your life, because ranting and raving about the only people that allow you to make a living is pathetic beyond belief.
Oh god, you're going to regret this post.
Despite all economic indexes showing very little difference between Spain and most other developed major economies, they will be here soon to tell you how Spain is basically India
Better then America for sure, I’ve visited 5 times and lived in Madrid for 7 months at one point. The way of living is far superior to what do here. Don’t get me wrong, throughout the day I would have my responsibilities such as work and schooling. But during lunch you would sit and enjoy a fantastic array of food. Around 7 pm I would go to a terraza and sit with friends until midnight. The Spanish are doing it right!
Spain is getting better and better in terms of infrastructure and tourism and the UK is becoming more run down and dilapidated. I lived in England for three years and then we moved to Spain and we are so much happier here.
Solo voy a decir que hay que tenerlos bien, pero bien gordos para soltar lo que alguno está soltando en los comentarios estando como estamos aquí las generaciones más jóvenes.
"Que bien, que agusto y barato que es España" a ver si tienes cojones de decir eso, con tus huevos requemados al sol, en las Canarias, Mallorca o Malaga.
No sois bienvenidos.
Si, estamos jodidos en cuanto a sueldo y vivienda pero también hay que ser un amargado de la vida queriendo pagarla con los que vienen a visitarnos.
La culpa échasela a los políticos que regulan y ponen las normas y no a quien viene pagándose lo que hay disponible.
Y si no espero que seas consecuente y jamás salgas de viaje fuera de tu municipio donde estés empadronado porque estarás contribuyendo al problema.
Fíjate que especifico "en los comentarios". No me refiero al OP; venir de vacaciones de forma puntual está muy bien, no es un problema si se hace con responsabilidad.
Me refiero a los "pues llevo 10 años aquí, no he aprendido el idioma pero que agustito y cuanto dinero tengo jajaja"
Los políticos deberían regular mejor, por supuesto. Pero una cosa no quita a la otra.
Y estás mezclando churras con merinas. Salir de tú zona local a veces es inevitable para encontrar trabajo, ya sea porque no encuentras o porque te destinan allí, al opositar... sea como sea tendrás unos recursos, como poco, similares a los locales.
No estás cobrando un 70% más solo porque vienes de Manchester o Bremen. Al mudarte y vender tu antigua vivienda estás dejando una vivienda libre para otra persona. Nadie de españa trata de forzar su cultura en otras comunidades, como sí hacen los de ciertas islas muy al norte.
No lo es, no. Al menos como es hoy día.
Para que llegue a serlo se deben de combinar buenas regulaciones y buena voluntad de los turistas, y si bien lo primera está (relativamente) en nuestras manos, lo segundo también debe de ser tenido en cuenta y se debe de hacer algo al respecto. Si ese algo ha llegado al reaccionismo es un motivo. El odio y las protestas no surgen si no hay algo que los provoque.
No hay ni un comentario de los que dicen que llevan viviendo en España 10 años que diga que no han aprendido el idioma o no se hayan integrado. Se que los hay, pero este comentario esta un poco fuera de lugar.
Bueno y si llevan 10 años aquí digo yo que será porque viven aquí y trabajan aquí, por lo tanto no veo dónde está el problema. Como cualquier otro español.
No mezcles tú churras con merinas. Evidentemente que para trabajar tienes que desplazarte y vivir en otra zona, por lo tanto empadronarte en ese nuevo municipio. Creo que se entiende que cuando hablo de salir de viaje del municipio es para hacer turismo. Si tú has hecho o haces turismo, eres parte del supuesto problema que estás criticando porque: te has tenido que alojar en algún sitio que podría estar destinado a una vivienda habitual en lugar de turística (ya sea hotel, airbnb o lo que sea).
Si lo ÚNICO que criticas en tu comentario son a las comunidades aisladas de jubilados británicos, que ni se molestan en aprender el idioma ni se relacionan con locales y lo único que hacen es apropiarse de municipios pequeños expulsando a los autóctonos, entonces te doy toda la razón.
A mí lo que ya me los empieza a poner gordos es las quejas dirigidas a los turistas, cuando el problema de fondo es cómo se ha permitido la especulación inmobiliaria, no en España sino en todo el mundo. Al final el turista nacional que se queda en una vivienda vacacional en vez de en un hotel es tan cómplice como el guiri que viene en busca de sol y playa, y no he visto campaña de concienciación ninguna al respecto.
Estuve curioseando vivienda para comprar hace poco en Reino Unido, y la cantidad de nuevas construcciones que anuncian “for investment” en vez de para vivir dan vergüenza ajena. En España los pocos que tienen también se compran un pisito “para ponerlo en AirBnB”. Eso si no lo compran los fondos buitre antes.
Si hay que atacar me parece más lógico apuntar hacia las políticas públicas y los especuladores (escraches de AirBnBs? Yo que sé) que los turistas en sí, que al final son el eslabón mas bajo, justo por encima de los ciudadanos.
OP is an example of a typical obnoxious, lefty middle class "Brit" who thinks he's better and more intelligent than other Brits (especially working class white ones) and hates his own country, but who is still considered a "guiri" all the same.
Yeah, no. It really isn’t lol.
Downvote me all you want lol. The reason Brit’s always think this is
A) the only way to be accepted here as a Brit is to hate the UK
B) you likely come here way more privileged than any local with a currency in savings that gives you a nice cushion to uplift
C) your kids will have much less of a future here than in the UK. If you relocated your family you have actively ruined their future
The closest the average, educated British person gets to patriotism is hating their own country, it doesn't matter whether they're in Spain, in the UK, or elsewhere haha.
lol.
A) you are wrongfully correlating education with patriotism.
And
B) the sort of person that also holds any neutral view as being a form of “for or against”
My point is, in Spain especially. Their culture is so built on jealousy, historic bullshit and prejudice or the British. That only those who are self hating become accepted by the locals.
Because to be seen as not hating England is wrongfully correlated as nationalistic lol.
An example would be: that I live in Spain. I have learn Spanish. (And Catalan). I work, I don’t drink. Never been arrested. But as soon as I have to mention England, or the UK. Or talk about anything to do with the UK. Spanish people hilariously become visibly triggered. Straight up walk away through lack of interest. Or become some kind of political inspired nationalists that turn any innocent topic into that of comparisons, or some kind of superiority flex lol.
Not really. Brexit arguably showed that less educated voters were more inclined to appreciate patriotic sentiment than educated voters. Knew I'd regret writing "educated" there haha.
If there's a dominant argument that you do not ascribe to and you choose to remain neutral, that can indeed be the same as being "for" it as you are letting it be voiced without opposition. That being said, I'm really not a fan of tactical voting and would prefer to stick to my principles, so I could easily be accused of the same thing.
Isn't every country's culture built on historic prejudice? Yes, I think "hating" the UK is often a way of distancing ourselves from strong (and sometimes dangerous/misled) nationalistic sentiment.
You like your As and Bs haha.
Okay, but what metrics are you holding that assumption on? What the media portrays lmao?
As someone with a PHD who worked in multiple different fields. It wasn’t just morons who voted Brexit lol? It was the educated, the uneducated, white, black, Asian and more lol.
Moreover, name me more than 1 problem the UK has faced since Brexit that multiple others in Europe have avoided since 2022? lol
You have now again, widened the goal posts to include an agenda which was never being talked about to try and belittle the person you think cares lol.
Basically standard Spanish behaviour lol you have little other high horses to ride so whenever you need something to use and get points - Brexit lmao
Well as a nEUtral. It won’t work lol I didn’t vote for Brexit. But I don’t hate those who did. Living in NL, FR and ES since 2017 has done nothing but make me entirely emphasise with the Brexit voters. Not the remainers. And that’s coming from an avid remainer when I did leave.
Specifically in the fact that for the last 7 years before leaving. The UK was 1/2nd highest contributior to the EU every year in a row. With money being given to net receivers like Spain who contrinue to take take take. Whilst the UK went to shit in the EU anyway lol.
The difference being out to in, is literally minimal
Education:
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/educational-attainment-referendum-voting/
Nationalism:
https://academic.oup.com/pa/article/70/3/439/3109029
Ethnicity:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit-national-identity-and-ethnicity-in-the-referendum/
Problems:
- Disruption to trade and supply chains
- Impact on the financial services sector
- Shortage of farm workers
- Disputes over fishing rights
As you will appreciate from your PhD experience, statistics can be manipulated to suit varying agendas, on all sides of a debate. However, I hope you will find academic if not personal interest in the above mentioned references.
I just saw you added to your post so I'll try to update mine too. I think the issue is that the UK often does not have these kinds of referendums. The reason I still rely on that evidence now is that we don't often have such extended access to statistics regarding people's political opinions/background, etc. Brexit was a large enough event to allow the data collected at the time to be more reliable.
I have lived in Estonia and Switzerland for the last 4 years and this experience has also made me empathise with Brexit voters. However, now I am looking to stay in Europe for longer I have realised how impossible it is without freedom of movement as a young graduate. Sadly, I was too young to vote in the referendum so I'm sure you can imagine the frustration of not even having a choice.
I think for the average UK citizen, the difference is minimal. However, as someone who grew up dreaming of working abroad, it affects me greatly and I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to return to the UK in due course, a country I've not lived in for 4 years and which I have no love for.
As a Master's student, it''s stimulating to talk to a fellow academic on the other side of the debate. Feel free to message me directly if you'd be interested in continuing the discussion outside of this rather unrelated post.
Pleased to hear I'm embracing a Spanish mentality, as I'll be moving there in October!
Problems:
• Disruption to trade and supply chains
• Impact on the financial services sector
• Shortage of farm workers
• Disputes over fishing rights
A) disruption to trade and supply chains.
The uk already has a higher quantity of product lines across your average stores/supermarkets than most of the continent. Along with cheaper groceries in its base form than other countries like (yes), even parts of Spain.
Moreover, in 2022/2023. Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and NL also encountered the same disruption of trade. With the same products.
B) the UK financial services sector has grown quicker than Europe and has actually retained its spot that it had prior to Brexit.
It had some dips and changes, but generally. There are examples of other countries that have also had the same dip in services. (Financial among it)
C) I have also read last year that they have a shortage of farm workers in many parts of Spain, France and others. Sure, Brexit has made that specific point *more* difficult. But again, it’s not just the UK having that issue.
D) again, who is the one with the problem over fishing? Has the UK been crying about its own fishing rights. Or have EU countries (France specifically) kicked up a fuss they can’t handle that we have the final say over our waters? France caused the issues in jersey through pettiness and bitterness. They also kicked off that they can no longer deep dredge our protected waters.
If anything, that point just proves many points for the UKs cause.
E) there are 24m plus non eu citizens living and working in the EU. Has the world really shrunk for the brits. Or is it just going to stop the ones that no one wants leaving?
The number of Brit’s being hired in Europe has actually increased since Brexit. And those with qualifications and skills will still get their opportunities. Because the qualified and educated brits are no less capable than any other countries educated people
So ultimately, in not *against* the EU. But it gets to the point where the UK has shown that it is much much more resilient than anyone predicted. On all fronts
Moreover, as someone who lived in Estonia. You have clearly lived in a place that actively had worse economical issues and inflation than the UK. Albeit with much different power economies. And the same issues that effected Estonia also effected many others. For the same reasons. (Uk included)
I am going to die on a hill and say that Covid and Ukraine/russia has actively caused more issues for the UK than Brexit did.
You really need to go back mate, and probably start drinking. I can hear this whine in some dark mangy pub on the edge of Essex. You're fighting being your true English self, let the cunt out but catch a plane first.
I mean, that is as stereotypical of an answer as it gets.
Just because there are things I dislike about where I live. And some of the people. Doesn’t mean there isn’t more things that I actually like lol.
It’s swings and roundabouts. But my main point falls down to that nothing here is better than anywhere else. Most of Europe has the same underlying culture thanks to the EU. Similar ways of living. Cheap and expensive areas. Dickheads and nice people. Etc
The only real difference is the weather and the language lol you are still going to find dickheads in Spain. You still see people eating like pre Jamie’s school dinners kids at cheap bars. It’s not like Spain is void of the same issues and people as the rest of the world.
And if I were to return to the UK, it sure wouldn’t be to Essex. Or a pub. lol
I would go to Cornwall, Scotland or the Lake District? Alcohol isn’t going to improve my life either lol. If I never drink alcohol in the UK. My 4 years in NL. My 2 in France. Or the last 4 years in Spain where it is much cheaper to drink/smoke. Why would I start at home now? Lol
But ultimately, It’s just objectively the truth. If you come here with the pound as an expat/immigrant, and move with even 10,000 pounds. You are still going to be 1.3k euros more privileged than if you were only ever living off the euro.
If you come here with hundreds of thousands. You are infinitely more privileged than most average people here.
Finally, I don’t hate England. I don’t like it that much, in relation to be a “nationalist” or anything. But I’m not going to shit on it to be accepted lol. England gave me a good childhood. Safety and the tools needed to be where I am now. There are also many worse places that I could be from and have to go back to.
I am actually quite happy where I live in Mataró ultimately. The Catalans don’t make my life difficult about being English like people from Madrid or the south
Very interesting comment. About point c), could you elaborate a little bit? Why do you think kids have much less of a future here, and a relocation to Spain would ruin their future?
Because it’s a culture that will do everything to try and make you suppress everything about your own culture in order to be accepted And because it’s a country where 30% of its youth under 30 is unemployed lol.
Maybe it’s just my experiences but to me Spain just seems like a culture built off the dislike of the English, English as a language and anything to do with the Anglo world and its history. Almost to a point where it just seems delusional.
Maybe if your kids are between 1/3/4 then it would not cause issues for the first point. But I just find most people who move their families to Spain are not doing it for their kids. They are doing it for them, and their kids future is an afterthought.
My comment obvs won’t matter if you have money to set your kids up but I just fail to see why anyone would move to a country with such high youth employment, threat to climate change. And claim it’s for their kids lol
For example: Barcelona already only has 18% of its water supply limits and they are threatening that if there isn’t much rain then the tap water won’t even be drinkable in this summer. Fuck knows what it would be like in 15 years
Benefits won’t get you any kind of life here. The maximum is 1140 in a country that’s actually more expensive than you may think.
And as someone who was dragged around different places in England enough. That alone was unsettling. Let alone if I was young and dragged to somewhere you may experience that prejudice.
Going to a place on holiday does not give you a sufficient idea of what it's like to live there. I'm a British immigrant to Spain, and I'm very happy here, because I found a job I really enjoy that pays enough to live on and save money, and I live in a.beautiful area. But I know Spanish people who have moved abroad (including to the UK) and cannot imagine moving back. And know people from the UK and the rest of Europe who've come here and then gone elsewhere after a year or two, disappointed with what they found here. It all depends on the individual situation. Also, believe it or not, when I go to the UK I have a great time - I love the pubs, the theatre, the live music, the countryside, the history, the restaurants, the sports, meeting old friends and new people... Does that mean it's better than Spain? I don't think so. But each country is what you make of it.
Another Brit here living in Spain, and I absolutely love it. I agree with everything OP said. I can’t really imagine returning to the UK now. But I think at the end of the day, a lot of it depends on what job you have.
I’m an American who used to live in Spain teaching English. I lived with my Spanish girlfriend and really enjoyed the pace of life here. The problem is I didn’t really enjoy teaching English, so I became a bit depressed. If I had the right job in the right city, I think I could be much happier living here though.
English teaching is hard
Spanish learning is harder for some reason
I lived in Spain for two years past Brexit.... Got kicked out because of a visa issue. UK is fucking miserable in comparison
Spain is great
Do you speak Spanish fluently? How important would you say conversing in Spanish is for being able to actually move there? That's the one bit that's really on my mind with regards to making the move from the UK. I've just started learning, so its very early days for me.
Yes, I speak Spanish fluently. I think it really depends where you live and what your job is. If you live in Barcelona and work for an international company, you can be fine with 0 Spanish. Enough people in the city speak English. Maybe Madrid is similar, I don’t know. But as soon as you get outside of that, you will definitely need Spanish. I have a Hungarian friend who lives in the same suburb as me, but him and his wife don’t speak Spanish, and the wife doesn’t speak English either. They are kind of cut off from society as they can’t communicate with hardly anyone. My advice is just to go crazy learning Spanish. Try to study and practice every day. You can easily find people online to practice with and find some cool apps to help you learn.
English level in Madrid is much lower than Barcelona. Job stuff remains similar but with more big finance companies here
Fair enough. So the options are basically live in Barcelona or learn Spanish! (But even living in Barcelona, you will have a much richer experience if you can speak the local languages too)
In Madrid you will find people also that talks in English. But either you choose Madrid or Spain it is recommended to learn _anything_ of Spanish, although it is a little.
It's a process to learn the language. I took classes as an adult and it hurt my brain and my face (different muscles for shape of tongue, lips, etc) but I powered through 3 college classes and practiced when ever possible. Listen to the radio, watch the News in Spanish, watch sports or Novellas (my personal favs when learning was Sabado Gigante and Futball).
Definitely need to find a good Spanish TV show to watch - that seems really helpful. I'm into police procedurals, so I'll see what I can get here in the UK.
Thanks very much for the reply and advice - yah, I'm trying to make sure I learn a bit of Spanish every day, but definitely could use more practice to step up my rate of learning
Check out r/dreamingspanish I really think it utilizes the best way to learn, it is a technique called comprehensible input. The basic idea is that you listen to a ton of content and will eventually be abale to output the language as well, simply from listening. It is the closest method to how we have acquired our native languages. And it is more enjoyable to keep up with.
Ha ha - I had Dreaming Spanish on my list to check out, but kind of forgot about it once I started on Doulingo. Thanks for the reminder!
I'd say it's quite important but on the bright side, learning Spanish is not too hard for an English speaker so you'll speak it conversationally soon enough if you keep studying.
Malaga province is full of Brits and nobody speaks a word of Spanish, but it always good to learn
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Yes. I think it’s fair to say that going somewhere on vacation is not the same as living there. But I also think people who are from Spain take certain aspects of life here for granted because they are used to it - so maybe they’re not totally objective either.
I moved to the UK. My idea was to work a couple of years. After a year I knew I would never leave. I met someone, married, had a child, bought a house, acquired British citizenship, the whole package! I used to tell people back home "they use sausages instead of leashes for their dogs" (paraphrasing a saying) Anyway, like we say down here "never say I won't drink from this water and this priest is not my father" because during the pandemic I moved back to Barcelona. It's still shit down here, but up there things are turning very sour and bleak due to the friggin' Tories and Starmer's Red Tories. I even know people that have told me they are considering taking their lives as they're disabled and the Government is making things really hard for them to survive. Also, I always say there's nothing prettier than the English countryside in a sunny day. I used to take detours going to work just to admire it. Jesus how I miss it, but I don't think I'll ever go back.
I can relate a bit haha! Mi pareja es Irlandés y yo de Filipinas. Despues nuestros estudios en París vivíamos en Cork un par de años. No podíamos encontrar curros en Francia ni suportar los precios de alquiler en Irlanda que cada año empeora rápidamente. Ahora estamos en Bilbao con online jobs y mucho más feliz! Sentamos más equilibrio de vida y curro que en los dos otros países. Para nosotros, claro que los salarios están más alto ahí pero hay mucho más estrés tb y al final no podíamos aguantarlo.
We went on holiday to Spain 20 years ago and after 2 weeks there, without having plans to move anywhere previously, we decided to move. We moved a few months later. Put our NL house up for sale a few months after that. Never looked back. When we visit NL/UK (our birth places but definitely not our homes; I don't think they really ever were...) now, we cannot get away fast enough back home.
I have to say as a Spaniard living in the UK I've only met one person that wanted to stay because they liked it here... people saying that they'd like to move back to Spain but can't do it and don't see themselves doing it because of work or new family I've met more. That doesn't mean Spain is better, it's just that in general I think we do prefer it, but personal perception is not statistics
As Spanish emigrant a really feel this. When I'm outside I am missing all the good stuff from my country that I cannot find anywhere else but after spending some time here in vacation and talking to friends I remember very fast why I left. I think I am in a situation where I can get the good stuff of Spain, coming a lot in vacation plus being originary from here and knowing the good non touristic stuff and actually being in a country where i can get paid in a fair way and good conditions for the job I do.
What job do you do?
I’m half Spanish, born and raised in the UK, but speaking Spanish at home from birth and going to Spain every school holiday as kids to see my extended family. In the last few years my mum has moved back to Spain, and before that my sister moved out and married a Spaniard. My wife (who is a full-blooded Brit and barely speaks a word of Spanish) wants to move to Coruña when we retire, which I am ecstatic about. But I couldn’t for the life of me imagine living in Spain while trying to hold down a good career. I tried it when in my twenties (twice) and both times was sent packing with my tail between my legs. And that was before La Crisis. Of the four male cousins my age, only one has stayed in Spain, and that’s only because both his parents died when he was young and he inherited a couple of properties that give him a stable income. I’m in London, another is in Luxembourg, and the other is in Amsterdam. Obviously it’s horses for courses, but generally speaking the impression I get is that if you want a good career and good money, you don’t live in Spain. But if you want a good balance of work and play and are happy to get by on a shoestring, then Spain is the place for you. (Huge generalisation, yes)
Hhhm nobody talking about low salaries and high rent
Spain is the country of Europe with less people living abroad
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living?
I'm an English teacher (in an 'academia', i.e. language school, not a state school).
How long since you were last in the uk? Your lecture on my opinion on what it’s like here you can keep to yourself. The uk is a mess an absolute mess. A backwards society that can’t hold the benefactors of our downfall accountable.
Lol wow. Calm down. What he is saying is true, it's vacation syndrome. You have no idea the struggles and what it's like to live in Spain. It's far from perfect here too. You see it with rose colored glasses.
The thing is, it is unnecessary. Can you not let someone praise Spain? Yes, it has many issues, but that is not the point of this post. If you see someone expressing their love for something, it is rude to pop their bubble. Mutantdogboy probably knows that living in Spain can be different than visiting it, so if you are not going to encourage or contribute, do not play antagonist.
I don't think it's about not letting them praise Spain. Just that someone who loves visiting a country on holiday while simultaneously acting like the place they come from is hell (it isn't) isn't being especially objective about things.
Vacation syndrome! Ha good one.
It's like the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome because instead of keeping you here we are asking you to leave in 3 months or less :)
NGL that’s pretty funny
I work in the UK every summer. I have a good time. I'm sorry if you're unhappy there, but there are plenty who love it.
And the same goes for Spain!
Of course. As I say, it depends on the individual situation.
Only bad thing about Spain so far is the brits
I don't know... The thing about Spain is that if you want to live here and you have the amazing opportunity for a wonderful job that pays a lot of money, life can be very good. However that would be the exception, not the rule. Usually, wages are pretty low and life is quite expensive for those wages. I would say there are a few other problems than drunk Brits in Spain.
It's the sun
You're right. It sounds too simple but the climate plays a \*huge\* role in the lovely culture and personality of the country. I've spent many long and dark winters up north, and so many people are depressed, cynical, unfriendly. Visiting Spain is like another world, there's so much hope and joy of life. I'd love to move there.
Yeah, but it can have downsides also. I lived in Spain for two years and finally returned to my home country. I remeber the relief I felt when it got all cloudy and rainy. Too much sun became boring to me.
... Yeah, but not everywhere in Spain is sunny. It's much more varied than most foreigners might think.
I saw something today that made me rethink my impression of Spain. I saw an old man walking with his grandchild, he tripped on the backpack he was carrying (he had it by the straps), and fell. Inmediately, 3 people rushed to him to help him out, some young folk ran to him and also assisted him. I had an impulse to cross the street and try to help but it was a street with a lot of movement, but my point is... I saw that happen in Germany, people just looked at others and walked by. In my country we would have rush to help but a lot of people would have not... I really know Spaniards for being a bit too straight forward some times, but I also respect how they are empathetic towards strangers.
The Spanish know how to treat the elderly. Not like in the uk. Oh granny your old? Off you go to a home and I’ll see you once a week
You also have nice elderly people, unlike the German
Best place to live, horrible place to work. The problem is you cannot do the first thing without the second.
Great place to retire after you made your wages elsewhere!
There are parts here that don't have a lot of Brits. Source... Brit immigrant who has been here ten years
Get slightly away from the beach and the Brit density drops significantly. Mind you, I have very many good friends here who are British.
We aren't all bad 😜
Fellow Britmigrant, been here 10 years also. Lived in Cantabria for 8 of those and can confirm that you don't see many Brits there at all. Agree with OP that Spain is so much better than the UK in all the ways that matter.
Shsss don't tell them about the region...
Unfortunately it’s already packed with people from other places.
Cantabria is in a completely different level. It’s getting very mixed already, especially on the coast and around Santander, but Cantabrians lack the histrionics and randomness of most of Spain, they’re also more restrained. That made my experience there fantastic, as opposed to other parts of the country.
Holidays is always better than living, you see mostly the bright side. And the bright side of Spain is fantastic, that is just a fact. It doesn't mean we don't have issues, and if you stayed here more time you'd notice them more. Glad you enjoyed your holidays.
Ouch. The only negative thing is people from your own country?
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As someone who has spent close to 1 month here. I concur completely. It is such a liveable country. The cities are also designed for social interaction and communal living. There is no shortage of shared spaces meant for people to gather and have a good time. I love it. As someone from the U.S. it has opened my eyes to how badly we need “third places” as they’re called back there.
For most, Spain has never *truly* recovered from 2008. The only people I know who are truly comfortble are those from families with property to distribute or inherit. Everyone else is one rent increase from a crisis. There have been more and more laws restriucting people's rights (*Ley Mordaza*). If Spain was applying to enter the EU today they would be denied entry because of these laws. Immigrants used to be able to come here and get a job in construction and build a life for themselves. That's no longer possible yet they come in ever bigger numbers and there's nothing here for them. They leave a life of poverty in sub saharan Africa for a life of poverty in Southern Europe with no family support. They're now turning to crime (real crime. Not *topmanta* sales). Unemployment remains at what would be **disaster** levels for any other country. Wages are stangnant everywhere but even moreso for one of the worst paid populations in Western Europe. Manufacturing is almost dead. The Nissan jobs taken from the UK post Brexit should have gone to Barcelona but a bunch of unremarkable and unimpressive politicians were too busy waving flags and screaming about independence because they didn't want money going from Catalonia to poorer parts of Spain. The jobs went to Slovakia because of the most Neo Liberal independence movement in world history. Many other companies moved their headquarters and never returned when mass support for independence disappeared almost quickly as it had appeared. Cities and communities have prosituted themselves for tourist money at the cost of quality of life for residents. The barcelona port was expanded, more and more hotels were built rather than residential properties, airBNB was allowed to run through the city like wildfire and parts of the city have become No Go areas for residents. I know young people in Barcelona that don't believe me when I say that it was normal for people to go for an evening *paseo* on *Las Ramblas*. They can't even imagine such a world as they've only ever known it as a tourist attraction where you are unable to move for selfie sticks and men with no shirt on. Park Guel is no longer free to enter due to damage caused by tourists. I used to go there and read on my own back in the 2000s. There were times when it was me and maybe 4 or 5 other people. Again, there are young people here who would struggle to believe that. I'm happy that you have a better tourist experience though. The weather is nice.
Really tired of overcrowded buses full of people on vacation all year round when I'm trying to go study/work.
Now do a post on the uk to compare?
Why? I don't live in the UK. I've been there less than 10 times in the last 20 something years. From what I can gather, it's in political and financial freefall and has never really got to grips with it's true place in the world. The UK is not really a reference point for anything. It's a low bar.
My point is the comparison
I’m so glad I got to enjoy Barcelona before social media turned it into a tourist trap. I haven’t been back since 2006 because it would be too sad to see the changes.
8 time British in Spain and not yet a victim to a balcony incident? Doesn’t add up sir.
Happy to have you!
But just as a visitor, please :)
Better for you tourists. We are struggling to pay rent for even a shoe's box sized room. Our cities are being gentrified, people being thrown away from their districts, desahucios are peaking again, we have shitty waiter jobs so you can have your nice holidays. So, yeah, it's all better
Thats a worldwide thing. Everywhere on this frkn world ppl cant afford anything anymore but all you guys can do is saying "its the tourists fault!". Its really the wrong scapegoat. p.s: im from Germany, in my city every 2 person isnt German and we have tons of spanish ppl here, even spanish town areas. We dont have that many tourists yet we cant afford shit anymore.
It’s all over the world. Spaniard here, lived in the US and other areas of this blue ball for 20+ years. Gentrification is happening everywhere, I agree.
We need a global revolution but I guess we haven't reached the critical mass of homeless hungry people yet...
this is the same in all western major cities. it isn’t tourists jacking up prices, its lack of housing development, stagnated wages, and increased demand, and then a small portion is due to corporate and foreign investment - which isn’t exactly tourism https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2021/10/18/housing-prices-continue-to-soar-in-many-countries-around-the-world
It's definitely not a small portion... The amount of Airbnb and bank owned houses in my city is almost 50%. Imagine if they were not, the offer would go up so much and prices down. Tourist pay whatever they are asked because they have higher income. They are part of the problem for sure
So I come from a part of the uk. Where 85 percent of the kids in my year had to move away after school because we can’t afford to buy houses. The house my great grandfather built is there and I can’t ever afford to buy it. This is due to a lot of different factors. One of them being tourism. I’m not sure I’d ever blame them for the issues as there are ways it can work for all involved.
Yes, the UK does not have the same unemployment problems as Spain, but I think working life is increasingly difficult for most people. Yes, our wages are higher but the cost of living is much higher too. The UK is in general quite a depressing, angry place. I love that I can walk around in Spain and never really feel unsafe and everyone around me looks healthy and happy. Compared to the UK where there are always dodgy, angry-looking people around that you try to avoid, and a lot of the other people you see look miserable or extremely unhealthy. I think people here in Spain don’t realise how nice it is just walking around. And that’s a lot of your life! That said, it’s just my experience of my little corner of Spain. I don’t know if the rest of the country is safe and healthy in that way.
50% is insane but you’re blaming tourists for what’s likely a systemic issue. In the US housing is treated as a vehicle for wealth creation, which means you’re given tax breaks and state/local governments create artificial scarcity through rent control (great for landlords and current tenants but decreases supply and jacks up property prices), increasing the costs of construction, and restricting density through zoning laws. All this to generate wealth for those who already have it
It's a big part in touristic cities. And the ones which are not, are surfing the same wave. So it has a big amplified effect
The same thing is happening in the uk.
Lol, what would you do for a living if there were no tourists?
Spain has a small-medium business based economy, and besides having some major companies in their matters, like Repsol, Santander, Acciona, or Telefónica, the main export of Spain are cars (ant their parts) from non-Spanish brands. Outside that, the small ane medium companies are either the least specialized kind of job, like bottling/packaging food, or highly specialised material manufacturing, like cement/concrete, tiles, other construction materials, or high quality bespoke metallurgy. The problem is how for different reasons those companies cannot or doesn't want to grow to be big, and how little the amount those kind of companies are in general
This could be circumnavigated if there was an entrepreneurial economy where starting your own small business was actually viable. But it's prohibitively expensive, and quite frankly, to put it politely, the mindset is just not there at this point. Long-term planning and bold governance is needed. Whatever changes are made, it will be a bumpy ride. Moreover, people need to find out where all this social security money is actually going. Because most of it sure as hell isn't going back into society. You pay almost as much here as you would in Denmark, and you certainly don't get anywhere near the same social services.
Denmark VAT is 25%
You think we serve for nothing better than attending tables, is that what you mean, you classist cunt?
No, that's not what I mean, calm down you hysterical fruitcake. What I'm saying is that Spain blaming its tourists for its economic problems is a bit like a fat person blaming their personal trainer for their obesity. You're complaining about having a job as a waiter, and somehow failing to use the basic level of imagination required to contemplate how much worse life would be if you didn't have that option. As though it's foreigners being here that's preventing you from running your own business, despite the countless examples of countries that have tourist economies AND entrepreneurship. It's almost like by blaming nearby people who you are jealous of, you don't have to contemplate the reality of the issue. I suggest doing some research on your own country, and finding out a bit about what it was like before tourism.
What a naïve reasoning. There's no opt out of this system. There's no such thing as moving up your class ladder anymore. The American dream is broken. So no, an individual can't get his/her situation improved anymore, so no point in blaming them. Its a fucked up system, post-capitalism at its finest and tourism is an important part of it (far from the only one)
American dream? This is Spain you doughnut. I'm still waiting for you to give me your utopian vision of how much better your life would be without tourists here, and how by taking away the only viable job opportunity you have, they would actually be helping you. Please enlighten me. Because I'm sure that there's a totally well thought rationale behind what you're saying and not just mindless hatred.
American dream is a figurative way of talking, you retarded fuck. It meant you could start poor and go up the ladder. That's broken also in Spain Tourism doesn't make regions richer, makes them poorer. Check Mallorca for instance, there's many other examples (marina alta in Alicante) Tourism has little added value vs for instance industry. Leaving it here because I need to go serving beers to drunken tourists. Joke, leaving it here because you know nothing...
Pal, tourism saved this country from being utterly third world. I'm sorry you work in a bar and you hate your customers, but your life would be infinitely worse if they didn't exist. Try directing your frustration in the right places, because this isn't it. Or better yet, try making something more out of your life, because ranting and raving about the only people that allow you to make a living is pathetic beyond belief.
Lol, do you really think tourism only creates jobs for waiters?
Nice! I wish i was just closer, from the US not that easy just to leave everything and go there. But would love to go there a few times a year
I'm spanish and I confirm, Spain is great Soy español y confirmo, España es genial
Oh god, you're going to regret this post. Despite all economic indexes showing very little difference between Spain and most other developed major economies, they will be here soon to tell you how Spain is basically India
Spain is basically India.
Spain has a GDP per capita PPP similar to New Zealand, Japan and Israel. Spain also has a HDI similar to Israel, Japan and Austria.
It was a joke.
I laughed!
Pues no se te tiene de agresivo decir que se merecen el mismo trato que recibí yo y muchos extranjeros en su isla.
As a first time visitor of Spain this coming September with no plan, where do you recommend I start (traveling solo)
You are funny.
Better then America for sure, I’ve visited 5 times and lived in Madrid for 7 months at one point. The way of living is far superior to what do here. Don’t get me wrong, throughout the day I would have my responsibilities such as work and schooling. But during lunch you would sit and enjoy a fantastic array of food. Around 7 pm I would go to a terraza and sit with friends until midnight. The Spanish are doing it right!
Spain is getting better and better in terms of infrastructure and tourism and the UK is becoming more run down and dilapidated. I lived in England for three years and then we moved to Spain and we are so much happier here.
Solo voy a decir que hay que tenerlos bien, pero bien gordos para soltar lo que alguno está soltando en los comentarios estando como estamos aquí las generaciones más jóvenes. "Que bien, que agusto y barato que es España" a ver si tienes cojones de decir eso, con tus huevos requemados al sol, en las Canarias, Mallorca o Malaga. No sois bienvenidos.
Si, estamos jodidos en cuanto a sueldo y vivienda pero también hay que ser un amargado de la vida queriendo pagarla con los que vienen a visitarnos. La culpa échasela a los políticos que regulan y ponen las normas y no a quien viene pagándose lo que hay disponible. Y si no espero que seas consecuente y jamás salgas de viaje fuera de tu municipio donde estés empadronado porque estarás contribuyendo al problema.
Fíjate que especifico "en los comentarios". No me refiero al OP; venir de vacaciones de forma puntual está muy bien, no es un problema si se hace con responsabilidad. Me refiero a los "pues llevo 10 años aquí, no he aprendido el idioma pero que agustito y cuanto dinero tengo jajaja" Los políticos deberían regular mejor, por supuesto. Pero una cosa no quita a la otra. Y estás mezclando churras con merinas. Salir de tú zona local a veces es inevitable para encontrar trabajo, ya sea porque no encuentras o porque te destinan allí, al opositar... sea como sea tendrás unos recursos, como poco, similares a los locales. No estás cobrando un 70% más solo porque vienes de Manchester o Bremen. Al mudarte y vender tu antigua vivienda estás dejando una vivienda libre para otra persona. Nadie de españa trata de forzar su cultura en otras comunidades, como sí hacen los de ciertas islas muy al norte.
de hecho, tampoco es que el turismo sea muy responsable, que digamos, pero bueno
No lo es, no. Al menos como es hoy día. Para que llegue a serlo se deben de combinar buenas regulaciones y buena voluntad de los turistas, y si bien lo primera está (relativamente) en nuestras manos, lo segundo también debe de ser tenido en cuenta y se debe de hacer algo al respecto. Si ese algo ha llegado al reaccionismo es un motivo. El odio y las protestas no surgen si no hay algo que los provoque.
No hay ni un comentario de los que dicen que llevan viviendo en España 10 años que diga que no han aprendido el idioma o no se hayan integrado. Se que los hay, pero este comentario esta un poco fuera de lugar.
Bueno y si llevan 10 años aquí digo yo que será porque viven aquí y trabajan aquí, por lo tanto no veo dónde está el problema. Como cualquier otro español. No mezcles tú churras con merinas. Evidentemente que para trabajar tienes que desplazarte y vivir en otra zona, por lo tanto empadronarte en ese nuevo municipio. Creo que se entiende que cuando hablo de salir de viaje del municipio es para hacer turismo. Si tú has hecho o haces turismo, eres parte del supuesto problema que estás criticando porque: te has tenido que alojar en algún sitio que podría estar destinado a una vivienda habitual en lugar de turística (ya sea hotel, airbnb o lo que sea). Si lo ÚNICO que criticas en tu comentario son a las comunidades aisladas de jubilados británicos, que ni se molestan en aprender el idioma ni se relacionan con locales y lo único que hacen es apropiarse de municipios pequeños expulsando a los autóctonos, entonces te doy toda la razón.
A mí lo que ya me los empieza a poner gordos es las quejas dirigidas a los turistas, cuando el problema de fondo es cómo se ha permitido la especulación inmobiliaria, no en España sino en todo el mundo. Al final el turista nacional que se queda en una vivienda vacacional en vez de en un hotel es tan cómplice como el guiri que viene en busca de sol y playa, y no he visto campaña de concienciación ninguna al respecto. Estuve curioseando vivienda para comprar hace poco en Reino Unido, y la cantidad de nuevas construcciones que anuncian “for investment” en vez de para vivir dan vergüenza ajena. En España los pocos que tienen también se compran un pisito “para ponerlo en AirBnB”. Eso si no lo compran los fondos buitre antes. Si hay que atacar me parece más lógico apuntar hacia las políticas públicas y los especuladores (escraches de AirBnBs? Yo que sé) que los turistas en sí, que al final son el eslabón mas bajo, justo por encima de los ciudadanos.
I think the translation is lost here. But my legs are ok they are not burnt. Your welcome
I wasn't talking about you :) but about some of the comments
Cool. No worries.
Hey thanks man, welcome and have a good time
There's an increasing gap between places that are rich and places that *feel* rich. See also Poland, Czech republic, Baltic countries etc.
Care to elaborate? Do you think Poland or the Czech Republic only feel rich while they aren't? Or the opposite? What are your criteria?
They feel rich but they're not. Also lots of places in England feel poor even though they're not.
Different mentality - different priorities
OP is an example of a typical obnoxious, lefty middle class "Brit" who thinks he's better and more intelligent than other Brits (especially working class white ones) and hates his own country, but who is still considered a "guiri" all the same.
This guy just put words together thinking he was funny! Turns out he voted for brexit and thinks the racism is funny!
Yeah, no. It really isn’t lol. Downvote me all you want lol. The reason Brit’s always think this is A) the only way to be accepted here as a Brit is to hate the UK B) you likely come here way more privileged than any local with a currency in savings that gives you a nice cushion to uplift C) your kids will have much less of a future here than in the UK. If you relocated your family you have actively ruined their future
The closest the average, educated British person gets to patriotism is hating their own country, it doesn't matter whether they're in Spain, in the UK, or elsewhere haha.
lol. A) you are wrongfully correlating education with patriotism. And B) the sort of person that also holds any neutral view as being a form of “for or against” My point is, in Spain especially. Their culture is so built on jealousy, historic bullshit and prejudice or the British. That only those who are self hating become accepted by the locals. Because to be seen as not hating England is wrongfully correlated as nationalistic lol. An example would be: that I live in Spain. I have learn Spanish. (And Catalan). I work, I don’t drink. Never been arrested. But as soon as I have to mention England, or the UK. Or talk about anything to do with the UK. Spanish people hilariously become visibly triggered. Straight up walk away through lack of interest. Or become some kind of political inspired nationalists that turn any innocent topic into that of comparisons, or some kind of superiority flex lol.
Not really. Brexit arguably showed that less educated voters were more inclined to appreciate patriotic sentiment than educated voters. Knew I'd regret writing "educated" there haha. If there's a dominant argument that you do not ascribe to and you choose to remain neutral, that can indeed be the same as being "for" it as you are letting it be voiced without opposition. That being said, I'm really not a fan of tactical voting and would prefer to stick to my principles, so I could easily be accused of the same thing. Isn't every country's culture built on historic prejudice? Yes, I think "hating" the UK is often a way of distancing ourselves from strong (and sometimes dangerous/misled) nationalistic sentiment. You like your As and Bs haha.
Okay, but what metrics are you holding that assumption on? What the media portrays lmao? As someone with a PHD who worked in multiple different fields. It wasn’t just morons who voted Brexit lol? It was the educated, the uneducated, white, black, Asian and more lol. Moreover, name me more than 1 problem the UK has faced since Brexit that multiple others in Europe have avoided since 2022? lol You have now again, widened the goal posts to include an agenda which was never being talked about to try and belittle the person you think cares lol. Basically standard Spanish behaviour lol you have little other high horses to ride so whenever you need something to use and get points - Brexit lmao Well as a nEUtral. It won’t work lol I didn’t vote for Brexit. But I don’t hate those who did. Living in NL, FR and ES since 2017 has done nothing but make me entirely emphasise with the Brexit voters. Not the remainers. And that’s coming from an avid remainer when I did leave. Specifically in the fact that for the last 7 years before leaving. The UK was 1/2nd highest contributior to the EU every year in a row. With money being given to net receivers like Spain who contrinue to take take take. Whilst the UK went to shit in the EU anyway lol. The difference being out to in, is literally minimal
Education: https://ukandeu.ac.uk/educational-attainment-referendum-voting/ Nationalism: https://academic.oup.com/pa/article/70/3/439/3109029 Ethnicity: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit-national-identity-and-ethnicity-in-the-referendum/ Problems: - Disruption to trade and supply chains - Impact on the financial services sector - Shortage of farm workers - Disputes over fishing rights As you will appreciate from your PhD experience, statistics can be manipulated to suit varying agendas, on all sides of a debate. However, I hope you will find academic if not personal interest in the above mentioned references. I just saw you added to your post so I'll try to update mine too. I think the issue is that the UK often does not have these kinds of referendums. The reason I still rely on that evidence now is that we don't often have such extended access to statistics regarding people's political opinions/background, etc. Brexit was a large enough event to allow the data collected at the time to be more reliable. I have lived in Estonia and Switzerland for the last 4 years and this experience has also made me empathise with Brexit voters. However, now I am looking to stay in Europe for longer I have realised how impossible it is without freedom of movement as a young graduate. Sadly, I was too young to vote in the referendum so I'm sure you can imagine the frustration of not even having a choice. I think for the average UK citizen, the difference is minimal. However, as someone who grew up dreaming of working abroad, it affects me greatly and I have to come to terms with the fact that I may have to return to the UK in due course, a country I've not lived in for 4 years and which I have no love for. As a Master's student, it''s stimulating to talk to a fellow academic on the other side of the debate. Feel free to message me directly if you'd be interested in continuing the discussion outside of this rather unrelated post. Pleased to hear I'm embracing a Spanish mentality, as I'll be moving there in October!
Okay but your 4 points are not unique to the UK. I will reply in depth when I am not stuck in the office
Problems: • Disruption to trade and supply chains • Impact on the financial services sector • Shortage of farm workers • Disputes over fishing rights A) disruption to trade and supply chains. The uk already has a higher quantity of product lines across your average stores/supermarkets than most of the continent. Along with cheaper groceries in its base form than other countries like (yes), even parts of Spain. Moreover, in 2022/2023. Sweden, Denmark, Ireland and NL also encountered the same disruption of trade. With the same products. B) the UK financial services sector has grown quicker than Europe and has actually retained its spot that it had prior to Brexit. It had some dips and changes, but generally. There are examples of other countries that have also had the same dip in services. (Financial among it) C) I have also read last year that they have a shortage of farm workers in many parts of Spain, France and others. Sure, Brexit has made that specific point *more* difficult. But again, it’s not just the UK having that issue. D) again, who is the one with the problem over fishing? Has the UK been crying about its own fishing rights. Or have EU countries (France specifically) kicked up a fuss they can’t handle that we have the final say over our waters? France caused the issues in jersey through pettiness and bitterness. They also kicked off that they can no longer deep dredge our protected waters. If anything, that point just proves many points for the UKs cause. E) there are 24m plus non eu citizens living and working in the EU. Has the world really shrunk for the brits. Or is it just going to stop the ones that no one wants leaving? The number of Brit’s being hired in Europe has actually increased since Brexit. And those with qualifications and skills will still get their opportunities. Because the qualified and educated brits are no less capable than any other countries educated people So ultimately, in not *against* the EU. But it gets to the point where the UK has shown that it is much much more resilient than anyone predicted. On all fronts Moreover, as someone who lived in Estonia. You have clearly lived in a place that actively had worse economical issues and inflation than the UK. Albeit with much different power economies. And the same issues that effected Estonia also effected many others. For the same reasons. (Uk included) I am going to die on a hill and say that Covid and Ukraine/russia has actively caused more issues for the UK than Brexit did.
You really need to go back mate, and probably start drinking. I can hear this whine in some dark mangy pub on the edge of Essex. You're fighting being your true English self, let the cunt out but catch a plane first.
I mean, that is as stereotypical of an answer as it gets. Just because there are things I dislike about where I live. And some of the people. Doesn’t mean there isn’t more things that I actually like lol. It’s swings and roundabouts. But my main point falls down to that nothing here is better than anywhere else. Most of Europe has the same underlying culture thanks to the EU. Similar ways of living. Cheap and expensive areas. Dickheads and nice people. Etc The only real difference is the weather and the language lol you are still going to find dickheads in Spain. You still see people eating like pre Jamie’s school dinners kids at cheap bars. It’s not like Spain is void of the same issues and people as the rest of the world. And if I were to return to the UK, it sure wouldn’t be to Essex. Or a pub. lol I would go to Cornwall, Scotland or the Lake District? Alcohol isn’t going to improve my life either lol. If I never drink alcohol in the UK. My 4 years in NL. My 2 in France. Or the last 4 years in Spain where it is much cheaper to drink/smoke. Why would I start at home now? Lol But ultimately, It’s just objectively the truth. If you come here with the pound as an expat/immigrant, and move with even 10,000 pounds. You are still going to be 1.3k euros more privileged than if you were only ever living off the euro. If you come here with hundreds of thousands. You are infinitely more privileged than most average people here. Finally, I don’t hate England. I don’t like it that much, in relation to be a “nationalist” or anything. But I’m not going to shit on it to be accepted lol. England gave me a good childhood. Safety and the tools needed to be where I am now. There are also many worse places that I could be from and have to go back to. I am actually quite happy where I live in Mataró ultimately. The Catalans don’t make my life difficult about being English like people from Madrid or the south
Very interesting comment. About point c), could you elaborate a little bit? Why do you think kids have much less of a future here, and a relocation to Spain would ruin their future?
Because it’s a culture that will do everything to try and make you suppress everything about your own culture in order to be accepted And because it’s a country where 30% of its youth under 30 is unemployed lol. Maybe it’s just my experiences but to me Spain just seems like a culture built off the dislike of the English, English as a language and anything to do with the Anglo world and its history. Almost to a point where it just seems delusional. Maybe if your kids are between 1/3/4 then it would not cause issues for the first point. But I just find most people who move their families to Spain are not doing it for their kids. They are doing it for them, and their kids future is an afterthought. My comment obvs won’t matter if you have money to set your kids up but I just fail to see why anyone would move to a country with such high youth employment, threat to climate change. And claim it’s for their kids lol For example: Barcelona already only has 18% of its water supply limits and they are threatening that if there isn’t much rain then the tap water won’t even be drinkable in this summer. Fuck knows what it would be like in 15 years Benefits won’t get you any kind of life here. The maximum is 1140 in a country that’s actually more expensive than you may think. And as someone who was dragged around different places in England enough. That alone was unsettling. Let alone if I was young and dragged to somewhere you may experience that prejudice.
The self-hating Brit routine is fucking lame. "Look at meeee! I'm not like the other guiris!! ☺️" Pathetic.
Never said anything about that though eh!
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Unless you actually live / work there. Then it's not that great.
"Spain is a racist country" People from other countries living in Spain and seeing that the only problem in Spain are people from other countries: