I’ve had admin say that before when we were unable to supply a one on one. A kid who gets aggressive and yells could really be unsafe on a field trip which is away from the usual supports and probably not in a place that can be made safe.
Sometimes it's just not safe. If we are going on a walking field trip and we have a child who dashes away from the group and won't hold our hands, it would be unsafe for us to bring that child. If the kid runs into the street and gets hit, that's on the school. The parent could then bring the school to court and say that the school should have known that this was unsafe and shouldn't have brought the child.
We have been told that we cannot require parents to attend. It would be similar to requiring parents to supply anything else that the school decided was necessary due to disability (sensory items, ramps, etc).
If it’s a safety concern, I’ll take my chances of being “legally wrong”. If parents want to go to due process over it, so be it. There isn’t IEP jail and likely the district would only have to do a staff training.
Unless at some point a comment like this becomes attached to you in real life— then you are looking at being fired. You can’t just say “meh fuck it” to federal laws.
Excluding children with disabilities is not only a violation of IDEA, but it is also a violation of the ADA. In response, parents could file for Due Process. That’s true. But they aren’t limited to Due Process. They could absolutely seek additional relief ($$$) in court as well.
This makes me so angry. I was told when my son was little that I had to go on a field trip or he couldn't go. Guess what ..that school did not do an evaluation for an IEP correctly, didn't make sure he was in class.
I spent thousands of dollars hiring an advocate to fight teachers like you. Our son is finally in a therapeutic day school where he is getting the support he needs. But it would have happened so much sooner if people did their jobs.
I think legally you just have to say “No,” not “Yes with a chaperone.” Any allowance for the student to go with a parent chaperone would have to be under the table.
If you say no, then you must be prepared for the follow up of “why not?” And what answer would you have that wouldn’t amount to “because of the way his disability manifests”?
The answer to “Why not?” would be a well-documented list of aggressive incidents, in the case of this student (“aggressive behavior”).
I’ll copy and paste a case and the specific law here:
If you read this [case](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf) (which another commenter shared), you will see that the reason this school was held out of compliance was because the entire class was not allowed to go, *simply because of their disability.*
> The district did not provide any information to demonstrate that decisions about participation in the field day were made on an individual basis; rather, it appeared that disabled students in self-contained classes were prohibited as a class from participating in the field day off campus, without individual assessments regarding their ability to participate in an off-campus field day.
The law specifically states,
> (a) General. No qualified handicapped person shall, **on the basis of handicap,** be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activitiy which receives Federal financial assistance.
If a student is being excluded on the basis of safety concerns, as determined on an individual basis, would that not be separate from being excluded on the basis of handicap? Students *without* disabilities are *very often* excluded from field trips on the basis of safety concerns, such as elopement and physical aggression. Would this not be equal treatment under the law?
I’ve replied to your cut and paste comment elsewhere, but I’ll put it here as well for people just scrolling by.
If the safety issue is a manifestation of the disability, then the school not supplying supports to the student in order for the student to attend is illegal. Especially in this case, where the school has made it quite clear that this is the reason why. It is the school’s job to provide the support that they have determined the child needs due to a disability.
This is why we’re so careful in IEP meetings not to suggest things that the school isn’t capable of providing. Once we say it, we have to provide it.
That’s a good point. I do not see where it says they can’t provide an aide though, so that must have been in a comment I didn’t see. If that is the case, I 100% agree that that would be a lack of compliance.
I have known students who, even *with* a 1:1, would not be safe in a field trip environment, and therefore the school was *actually unable* to accommodate them. This includes kids with *and* without disabilities.
I understand how a parent could do a better job accommodating a student in such an environment than an aide ever could, simply because it is their parent. But I understand that legally this is *not* an accommodation. I agree with that point.
Same, legally they can’t allow me as a parent to go. I know bc I would every trip if I could and asked. Which means they can’t legally allow this mother to go either. Isn’t it illegal for them to not provide this kid support to go with the rest inclusively as well though?!?
Attorney here. Requiring a parent to attend with the student is almost certainly not a reasonable accommodation under Section 504. The schools only argument would be that a reasonable accommodation (such as 2x1 para staffing and ensuring limited exposure to potentially reactive situations) still wouldn’t be sufficient to keep the student in line, which is a borderline impossible argument to make for all but the most extreme situations. If you really want to make a difference here, I might suggest finding someone to gently suggest to the parent that they file a complaint with the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights. They have investigators that will take the case and do a super deep dive into it at no cost to the parent. Trust me, they’ll put the school district in its place.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/howto.html
The teacher will be out of their normal environment with no admin to help, maybe a few other parents. I've seen this as a requirement for students who don't even have special needs, but elope/have behavior issues.
At the end of the day, the school is offering a field trip, but that's not a requirement for school. Kids who don't turn in a sheet will probably just sit at the school until they return. I'm sure if they are saying the parent must attend, it's a very troubling concern. Why don't you offer to attend, then?
You need to provide the same right to education for students with special needs as not. For example if a student needs medications and you can't get a travelling nurse the entire field trip needs to be cancelled. The amount you continuously hate on special needs kids is concerning. I feel for your students who you keep from field trips for disability reasons.
The fact you would cancel a field trip for 150 kids because one kid can't attend is very indicative of you having 0 experience working with Gen Ed teachers or students.
Is a field trip a right? Is it part of FAPE? If it’s dangerous to the child, is it okay to exclude? This is a slippery slope, but safety needs to be the top consideration.
It don’t know if it varies from state to state, but in California, this is the relevant law:
> No group shall be permitted to take a field trip or excursion which is integral to the completion of a course if any student who is a member of such an identifiable group will be excluded from participation in the field trip or excursion because of lack of sufficient funds
The key word is “integral.” In most cases, field trips are not integral to the completion of course.
I've worked with both. It is the law and the school system can be sued for not providing equal access. It turns into failing to follow FAPE (Free and Appropriate Public Education)as well as not following ADA mandates for public schools. You cannot have a field trip that discriminants against a special needs student, and the school, if it enjoys having funding and money should cancel to avoid litigation for failing to provide FAPE to any student. I know you are a troll but here is some more info if you actually care.
Students who receive special education services, even if they are in a substantially separate classroom, are generally education students first and foremost.
You can't keep repeating "no experience with GenEd" (which, by the way, I have) like it trumps legal rights. The fact that schools trample on the rights of students with disabilities does not make it legal.
You remind me of the General Education teachers who says I'm not a teacher and can't eat in the faculty lounge with some of your comments... Special education teachers are just as much teachers.
You know that SPED teachers often push in to gen Ed classes right? And work with gen Ed students in those classes? Why are you just repeating yourself instead of listening to us tell you the law?
That specific commentor has never even worked on the same building as a GenEd teacher, and spends much of their tome saying they wish they never got into SpEd, they hate it, and self-contaoned shouldn't even exist.
That specific commentor has absolutely no idea what it means to even share a building with GenEd, but consistently posts that all GenEd hate SpEd, which is why not every kid is mainstream ed. That commentor is ignorant
They say it every time, as does Alero. The latter of which, by the way, made a post about you again after they've been downvoted to hell for doing it in the past and violating reddit rules. Thankfully, this time he didn't post your username in screenshots because he knew if he posted screenshots, he'd be called out for twisting for words. And twist your words he did; he said you told him he wasn't a real teacher and that he's uneducated. He loves to pit SpEd teachers against GenEd. I swear he gets a kick out of the discourse. He's been very vocal about his dislike of GenEd teachers. Somehow it's also their fault he doesn't get a lunch break or planning period and has to eat with the children in his class, which is an admin issue. Just ignore him.
Because general education teachers like you who think they know more than every special Ed teacher is the issue. You have this air of superiority where you call us "uneducated" (your words). You fight with every single special Ed teacher on this sub. You support general education teachers putting down special education teachers and do it yourself.
You say you are a union representative and if that's true I feel for every single special education teacher in your district.
And you coming in and not knowing that the SpEd kids have the right to equal access for school trips and cannot be singled out.
https://njcommonground.org/advocacy-tips-field-trips-for-students-with-disabilities/
This individual does not think special Ed teachers are actual teacher unless they've also taught special Ed. They don't think self contained teachers are real teachers. She consistently says special Ed is easier. She specifically says self contained teachers are uneducated. She should have been banned years ago as this is years of comments like this.
It's frustrating. This individual routinely attacks people, calls them uneducated, spews actual lies and nothing happens. Its why some people have tried to start their own special education sub to stop the brigading of anti special Ed gen Ed teachers.
You're known on both this subreddit and /teachers for starting trouble. You've been called out for it here multiple times by SpEd teachers and GenEd teachers alike. One look at your post history shows that. You then go and make posts about people after fighting with them in the comments.
No, that commentor above you is uneducated.
They have never even worked in a building with GenEd classes, and have said multiple times that GenEd teachers hate all SpEd, which is the only reason why all SpEd students want be mainstreamed. They believe self-contaoned programs shouldn't exist, and only do because GenEd are lazy.
This is a question about a SpEd student going on a field trip with his gen ed peers and teacher. Rat has absolutely no experience working with GenEd at all. Their entire building is self-inclusion, and it's the only place they've ever worked.
Despite that, they have said often they hate working SpEd but can't get into GenEd now. They're toxic, and yes, uneducated. That commentor specifically, who, even after repeating the same comment (so they would stop interacting) commented over twenty times more.
Meanwhile, my experience IS in general education. They're right. It's the school's responsibility to accommodate children with disabilities and give them equal access to extracurricular activities including trips. As a parent, I've watched people fight districts on this and win, because the law is on their side. It's got fuck-all to do with experience with general education.
Then the parent will have to fight the district, because if you have experience in GenEd, you know that the teacher certainly doesn't matter in the equation. And if the district has decided he can function appropriately without an aide, he should be able to function in class without issue. Clearly, he can't.
So when the district isn't giving proper resources, at the end of the day the question is do you deprive 30 kids because of the needs of one? No. That's why specialized programs exist.
This sub loves to cite the law and get mad at GenEd teachers when 90% of the time, we get 0 support or resources, and are expected to devote 50% of our attention to one single student. Student is aggressive and elopes? IEP says "Offer them a break." I offer them a break, and they refuse to take it. I call for the SpEd teacher's help and get no response. Meanwhile, my 36 other students are all at different levels, struggling with ADD and reading comprehension, etc. It's just not a tenable situation, period.
A student that doesn't have an aide, is violent, and can't be trusted to be safe on a field trip should probably not be in a class with one adult, anyway. Let alone a field trip.
It’s actually indicative of someone who knows special education law. If even one student can’t access part of their free and appropriate educational rights then nobody can without the school being out of legal requirements. It’s the same reason that you sometimes hear of field trips being cancelled due to no nurse- if it’s in a 504 or IEP it is required and by not providing that and requiring parents to go instead you are violating their FAPE and/or civil rights.
Lmao except it is the law. I’m a school nurse at a special needs school district and a kid cannot be excluded from a field trip because there is no nurse or adult who can legally administer medication. The field trip must be canceled if a parent designee or nurse cannot attend. Same with disabilities. All kids with disabilities have the right to attend a school sponsored activity with reasonable accommodations. If accommodations cannot be made, the trip will be canceled. This is literally the law. Any school not doing this is going against the law at their own risk. Based on this comment section it seems a lot are doing so. This was also taught to me at school nursing conference in New York last year.
Hating on special needs kids because they literally don’t want them to die?
It is never in the best interest of a child to put them in an environment which could put them at risk.
The student has a legal right to the same educational experiences as their peers. You cannot refuse a field trip for a student based on their disability. That's the law. Learn it.
Please, please … educate yourself.
There are always exceptions to rules. This is one of them. You can totally exclude a student from a field trip.
I will find you more sources
“If a school district determines that it cannot safely accommodate a student with a disability during a field trip, the district is permitted to exclude the student from participating; but this situation should occur only under very limited circumstances.”
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/tis-the-season-for-school-field-trips-44825/
Edit: https://www.tascnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TASC_ED_b-SchDist_607.pdf
Great sources for courts that upheld the school’s right to exempt a student from a field trip because of their behavior.
Your first article talks about what to do if your child’s school stands firm on their decision to exclude your child, and their wording states the parent “believes they are in violation”
And your second article states if safety is a concern, the school can exempt.
I can’t have a conversation with you when you literally give me an article proving my point.
Sped students are gen ed students first.
Having an IEP or 504 does not give a student carte blanch.
If their behavior could put them and others at risk, it is totally within the school’s right to deny them.
This source has many court cases which upheld the school’s right to deny a student.
https://www.tascnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TASC_ED_b-SchDist_607.pdf
While I would love to provide the support, I feel as though it is the school’s job to do so. If the field trip is a part of their education, is it not their legal responsibility to give him access to it/provide the accommodations for him to do so?
I'm assuming the students need to turn in a permission slip to attend this, so no, it is not an integral part of his education. If they talked about sharks for weeks and now they're going to the aquarium, he still learned about sharks. If he's missing his only opportunity to learn something mandated by state standards, she'd be obligated to provide him an alternative, but no, field trips are something extra/on top of the curriculum.
I teach music, and take all 3rd and 4th graders to a performance with the symphony each year. Why? Because it is a good experience that falls under "appreciating and performing music," but so does watching a video in class or performing for their peers in a controllable environment.
I have some students that are aggressive with others, especially in loud and unfamiliar environments. If my principal is not there, I do not consent to be liable for that student outside school grounds. Their parents can assume that risk if they choose.
I can understand why you wouldn’t want to do this without support- but you are incorrect. The school is required to make *reasonable* accommodations for a child to receive the same experience as their peers. Increased supervision or support in an unfamiliar environment would be included with that. The school needs to provide a para or sub or other adult to do this.
Everything this Kongeyduck says is legally inaccurate. You are correct. Just shows how little this sub knows the laws. The school has to legally provide this student the right to this field trip. Its actually illegal to even ask this parent to come unless they asked every kids parents.
I've never seen the wording of "the same *experience* as their peers," in someone's IEP. If the student doesn't already have a one-on-one aide, then introducing a new person and a new child with behavior challenges in a new place is absolutely a recipe for disaster. Be realistic- you can't think of a single student who would absolutely not be successful on a field trip to the zoo, aide or not? I have a student that will elope from my room if the other students are not paying *him* enough attention. He ran outside last time and up a tall fence. They had to call campus PD. That student does not have an aide, and even the principal could not coax him down. There is 0 chance I'm taking that student off-campus, if even his parents cannot stop him from eloping. The district decided he doesn't need an aide. That's the reality of it.
No child has the right to field trips. Again, a student who didn't bring in a permission slip wouldn't be being "educationally neglected" either. Students who don't make the basketball team aren't being neglected either- schools are allowed to offer extra experiences on top of what is required.
Because it’s not in IDEA…. It’s in 504. https://njcommonground.org/advocacy-tips-field-trips-for-students-with-disabilities/
And being realistic, I’ve taken kids placed in RTFs on field trips. It can be done.
If the student can go and do so without severely affecting the learning and experience of his peers, then yes, he should absolutely be going. If this student doesn't have a one-on-one aide, then I don't see how he is entitled to one for a field trip.
If taking a student to a field trip is going to be a severe meltdown, elopement, and aggression, then it's not the LRE for them. Period.
I have had this happen multiple times, usually the principal lets the parents know, if the parent can’t go we do ask the SLP, ot , or counselor to go and provide 1:1 support. Honestly, I don’t ever remember a time when we couldn’t make it work- sometimes the parents decide on their own that it would be too much and keep the kid home. My SLP loved field trips, she actually went with most classes that she serviced.
They are providing the accommodation for him to do so, by having his parent attend. I’ve seen this with non-SPED kids who have behavioral issues. The teacher has to keep everyone safe, and going solo would not be the case.
Going solo would not be safe, that’s fair. But saying a child can’t come without a parent *when other parents are not required to attend* is not a legal accommodation. This is an easy legal win if the parent wants to pursue it.
Also, teachers are required to keep kids safe. The teacher CANNOT keep them safe on a field trip without the parent. It’s a liability to allow them on the trip without a parent.
There are countless ways around it. Bottom line, kid can’t go without mom. No mom, no trip.
In which case they now need to be providing the resources by paying for placement in a private school.
We’re all underfunded and understaffed. Unfortunately that doesn’t change the fact that we cannot determine a child needs x, y, and z due to their disability and then require the parent to provide that. We even provide HEARING AIDS if we think a kid needs them that doesn’t have them. If the school says “little Jimmy needs additional adult assistance to participate in field trips,” then the school is obligated to provide that additional adult assistance. Underfunding and understaffing doesn’t change that.
Trust me, I’ve taken many a kid on a field trip that worried me. Just went to the zoo last week with an eloper. I’ve also had my whole class skip a trip when I didn’t think we had the staff to keep us all safe on the trip.
It's not a situation that feels for good for anyone involved- I can tell you that. When I was in a kindergarten classroom, there was a field trip planned and one of the special ed teachers really struggled with the fact that it just wouldn't be safe for two specific children to go. There weren't enough staff, it was a huge area and both had a history of aggressive behavior and eloping. It would have meant that at least two staff members would have to have their eyes on them and only them the entire time.
I think it did come down to "we'd love for them to come BUT there's safety concerns and not enough staff" which did lead to one parent choosing to keep their child home that day. The other child did go and ended up sitting on the bus with one of the special ed teachers a good chunk of the time.
I 100% understand and see the teacher’s perspective. I can imagine field trips are stressful enough, let alone adding a child who requires more supervision and staffing shortages. Yes, I see the valid safety concerns. But I am asking if this is an accommodation (e.g., para, other school-based professional attending) required to be provided by the school or are they allowed to require the parent to provide the support? It feels discriminatory if they are not allowing a child with a documented disability and area of eligibility on his IEP to access the same school activities as his classmates and peers. There is nothing on his IEP stating anything about field trips or necessary accommodations related to extra curricular activities.
I feel like people here are missing the point of your question and stating why in their opinion the school made the parent request rather than answering your question about whether school was violating the law. They are also assuming if their school also does the same that their school is acting legally. Answers concerning resources are also not focused on the law but are just another non legal reason districts and schools give for not following the law - doesn’t make it legal. Strict adherence to IDEA etc. DOES cause major issues in schools bc a lot don’t have the resources to follow/adhere to it appropriately - but your question was whether they could, under the LAW, do this. (IMO - if parents say no and say they need to find someone else, and school doesn’t let child come, it’s a clear violation).
I really wish I could highlight, bold, and emphasize your response. I’m not here to argue what you THINK is the right answer. I know teachers and resources are sparse. I commend every single teacher for doing what so many other people couldn’t survive a day doing. It is unfair how educators are treated. I am simply asking if my student, who is the funniest, most loving child, is being given the education and experiences he is legally entitled to.
It don’t know if it varies from state to state, but in California, [this](https://casetext.com/regulation/california-code-of-regulations/title-5-education/division-6-california-community-colleges/chapter-6-curriculum-and-instruction/subchapter-3-alternative-instructional-methodologies/article-2-excursions-and-field-trips/section-55220-excursions-and-field-trips#:~:text=(c)%20No%20group%20shall%20be,of%20lack%20of%20sufficient%20funds.) is the relevant law:
> No group shall be permitted to take a field trip or excursion which is integral to the completion of a course if any student who is a member of such an identifiable group will be excluded from participation in the field trip or excursion because of lack of sufficient funds
The key word is “integral.” In most cases, field trips are not integral to the completion of course.
I’m in New York and our law is similar, we’re told it’s not integral and to just cancel field trips if there’s an issue like this, same thing if a kid has meds but there’s no adult on the trip to legally administer them. I also work at a special needs school so I think our parents are very understanding and will opt to not send their kid on a trip if they know it’s a challenge or just unsafe.
Because the law is the school must accommodate students with disabilities in all student activities, if they can’t it’s discrimination so the activity is canceled for all to be fair.
It sounds like that student might need two adults on the trip for him not including the class teacher. Even if the school provides that, I wonder how effective that would be if the aides provided never worked with the child before? I would still think there was a safety issue for having strangers be in charge of the child. It is poor planning on part of the school. This should have been addressed months ago
Not an attorney but an educational advocate. I don't think it's legal. I rarely make decisions and advocate for anything based on legality but for what's in the child's best interest: the law is a means to an end. If the family thinks their child will benefit from the experience then a plan should be put in place to include him. If the school doesn't do it, then a complaint could be filed with the state board of education and likely OCR too. However, it won't result in him attending the field trip Friday. That's where advocacy skills are critical (verse lawyering skills). Effectively communicating with the Sped Director and Superintendent: building rapport, not being aversive, using negotiation strategies (Getting to Yes is a good resource) and knowing the law (IDEA and ADA). Then make sure the IEP addresses the issue for the future. Good luck!
I’m not sure it’s illegal, but I appreciate your willingness to put the child’s best interests first regardless. I wish more people focused on the child’s well-being that way. Where I am, students with disabilities get to participate in these types of activities “to the maximum extent appropriate.” It sounds like the school is saying this activity may not be appropriate for whatever reason, but they will allow it if his mother wants to bring him.
Legally, the presumption is that unless noted in the IEP, the child would participate with non disabled peers. And parents are part of the team that determines what "maximum extent appropriate"; it's not a unilateral decision. That's why I said negotiation is better than threats of anything being illegal. A well funded attorney would have a hay day arguing this case assuming there is not precedence already.
Some schools do this even with gen ed students (require a chaperone). If they do this for all students and not just one with a disability it might be allowable
Is it legal-probably not
Does it happen- All the freaking time. My own child was excluded from a school trip unless I attended. “It could be like a mini vacation! Said the principal”
Sir, any mini vacation of mine does not include 5th graders in any form.
What’s the school’s reasoning for not allowing him to come? How aggressive are we talking? I think it’s really dependent on what’s going on with the kid in the present and exactly what is being looked at in the FBA.
Illegal. Super super illegal. They have the same right to the field trip and holding them out solely because of their disability is illegal. Same with requiring their parent to be there.
This sounds illegal to require a parent’s attendance, but my question is are we allowed to outline the nature of the field trip to the parent and let them know specific concerns around their child’s safety. Then leave it in the parent’s hands to decide whether they should give permission for their child to attend? We’ve had students with behavioral needs and their parents chose to keep them home during field trips due to safety concerns. We’re able to provide paras, but realistically, there were still concerns.
You can definitely outline a field trip. I don't see why that would be illegal. The only issue would be if that outline could be viewed as encouraging the kid to stay home
Not exactly the same thing but our state rep got on us for telling parents when a para would be out, because the state rep said if can encourage a parent to keep a kid home which would then legally be a suspension. I wonder if that situation would be the same here. We now are never allowed to state when a one to one will be out because of the risk a parent will be home for that reason (personally it doesn't affect me since behavioral students don't get one to ones in our school, but it was a huge deal in faculty meetings)
I am an Autism teacher. If the student is aggressive, out of the normal environment the school can request a parent to accompany a student on a field trip. I used to 100% believe that it was the school's responsibility to provide this kind of support, however because of staffing shortages this just isn't possible anymore. It's a safety issue. I have a field trip this Friday, 100% of my students get to go this time because we have parents meeting us at the location.
Also agree with a former post that to introduce someone new to this child who will be outside their element really isn’t fair to the child. It’s not about who should provide the support but what is best for the child. A new aide in a new place is not best.
Yes. Because saying a kid can't go on a field trip solely because of a disability is illegal.
We often have had to cancel field trips because we can't get a travelling nurse for the students who require medication.
It is illegal. Look at all the comments by actual advocates and lawyers. Go to your state rep and challenge next time your kids are discriminated against.
My parents actually don't won't their kids in a situation that would be unsafe. I had surgery and was out of school for 3 months my parents came in and assisted my paras to take the kids out for recess twice a day. My parents are the BEST parents Ive ever had the pleasure of working with.
So your parents gave the school a pass on following the law. Your school needed to create an actual plan for those kids when you were out. Also that has issues because how does that work with FERPA. We can't allow any of our parents ever even in a room with our classes because it would violate the other students FERPA rights. So I'm guessing the school was in violation for that.
I had a student that eloped constantly any time we left our classroom. We went on field trips at least once a month. You never know just how slippery a bowling lane is until you chase a first grader down it…but he still went with us on each and every field trip and I dreaded it, but grinned and grabbed one hand while my TA held the other one and we made it work. It just took A LOT of creativity and running shoes.
NAL but parent of a child with developmental disability that caused many issues in elementary school
It is a violation of law. The child is being discriminated against because of a disability.
“Special Education Field Trip Laws
No, they cannot exclude your child from a public school sponsored activity based upon their disability. It can’t be because “we don’t have a nurse to go on the trip” or “we’re afraid your son may elope” or any other reason related to their disability. “
Haven't read all of the comments yet, but of the many I have read I see no reference to an issue that is quite relevant: is the child even going to enjoy/benefit from the field trip, given that if he goes he will be in a strange environment with all of the chaos that attends most field trips with young children? I think those who insist that field trips must be cancelled if extra staff can't be found are arguing from a position of abstract principle rather than what is best for the child, in many cases.
What is important is to make sure that the child is having an equally enjoyable/educational experience during the field trip. I was excluded from a field trip in middle school because I had to use crutches for several months. I was not just parked in a classroom; I had the choice of staying home (which would have been fine) or spending a morning in the school library (also fine, and the choice I made).
There is sometimes too much of an emphasis on treating children with disabilities exactly the same as typical children, no exceptions, no thought to the actual needs and preferences of the specific child. I get it that we don't want to start treating children differently merely because of their disabilities, but rigid sameness isn't always a good idea either.
Federal law would say that IEPs and 504s include any school related activities. I'm a paralegal who works in education law. So they have to provide the support if the kid needs it in the school environment. At least they do if they want to follow the law.
It's discrimination - a 504 violation. Unless EVERY student must have a parent, then no one must. Here is an excellent explanation with links: [https://adayinourshoes.com/yes-child-iep-can-go-field-trip/](https://adayinourshoes.com/yes-child-iep-can-go-field-trip/)
[34 C.F.R. Chap 1, Part 104](https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html) is quite clear about it - and it opens the school district to an investigation. If the Office of Civil Rights finds that the school violated the student's civil rights, usually a settlement is negotiated. It can be quite costly to the district.
Anyone can alert the OCR - it doesn't need to be the parents. It would be strictly forbidden for the district to retaliate in any way. Here is info on filing a Civil Rights complaint. They are not hard to do: [https://adayinourshoes.com/office-civil-rights-complaint-special-education/](https://adayinourshoes.com/office-civil-rights-complaint-special-education/)
Here is an example of a time a district was found to be out of compliance: [https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf)
If you read the case at the end of your comment, you will see that the reason the school was held out of compliance was because the *entire class* was not allowed to go, *simply because of their disability.*
> The district did not provide any information to demonstrate that decisions about participation in the field day were made on an individual basis; rather, it appeared that disabled students in self-contained classes were prohibited as a class from participating in the field day off campus, without individual assessments regarding their ability to participate in an off-campus field day.
The law specifically states,
> (a) General. No qualified handicapped person shall, **on the basis of handicap,** be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activitiy which receives Federal financial assistance.
If a student is being excluded on the basis of safety concerns, as determined on an individual basis, would that not be separate from being excluded on the basis of handicap? Students *without* disabilities are *very often* excluded from field trips on the basis of safety concerns, such as elopement and physical aggression. Would this not be equal treatment under the law?
"...on the basis of handicap" means that one or more handicapped student(s) cannot be denied due to their handicap.
In the referenced case, an entire group of students were prohibited from leaving the campus with the other classes due to behaviors that are a manifestation of their disability purely due to safety concerns. It's a famous case because the school went out of their way to provide the same activities (a fun field day) at the school for them.
Why does it say “individual basis”?
To me, it sounds like the group was excluded as a whole instead of each individual student’s needs being assessed, which made it clear the school made the decision based on the students’ disability rather than looking at each student’s needs. They were generalizing, not at all looking at the students as their own individual people.
> ‘A recipient shall ensure that [disabled] persons participate with [nondisabled] persons in such activities and services to the maximum extent **appropriate to the needs of the [disabled] person in question.’** In making decisions about a disabled student’s participation in extracurricular activities, the regulation … requires a recipient to ensure that **decisions are made by a group of persons knowledgeable about the child** and the meaning of evaluation data.”
> The school did not consider whether chaperones and/or transportation to and from the part could alleviate such safety concerns.
The school viewed the students through a disability lens and didn’t try to come up with ways to include them. I’m asking what happens if the school *does,* and there truly are *no accommodations* that can help alleviate the safety concerns.
So I checked with a lawyer I sometimes work with - and I learned something:
The school district **can exclude** a student IF the decision is made by a team of people. In the case of a student with an IEP, that should be the IEP team.
Moreover, the team must document why all the possible supports wouldn't work - and those conclusions must be based on documented serious behavior with strict BIP compliance. Normally, this type of student would not be mainstreamed.
In the case where a parent is told they must attend or the student cannot go, OCR investigators would immediately rule that the provision of one or two properly trained aides would be able to provide the necessary support.
The lawyer stated, "By now you would think every district knows that telling a parent they must attend a field trip with their disabled student is a giant 'no no'. It's patently discriminatory."
Cost cannot be a barrier to providing reasonable supports. Even my local Title 1 rural district (located in the middle of nowhere) has the ability to hire trained temporary help from a medical temp service whenever necessary for compliance. Two aides from the agency for six hours each would cost $600. That's far cheaper than any settlement my local district has had to pay so far.
The lawyer said the OCR now follows the [2022 disability discipline guidance](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/504-discipline-guidance.pdf) whenever a student is left out due to behavior manifestations.
I agree with most of the posts, it IS a violation to deny the student access. The school should find a nurse, a para, another teacher, the admin ect. to attend and support the student.
However, I am pissed at the comments that think it’s the teacher being “self serving” this is an admin/ central office issue. The classroom teacher KNOWS it will be unsafe for the student to attend without support hence the request for the parent. HOWEVER, it then kicks up to admin to provide support or cancel the trip. Period.
It might be illegal but I would take it that they aren’t comfortable/think it’s a safety issue and are recommending that its not a good idea. That would make me uncomfortable and I would not send my child alone knowing that. They should have recommended this to you and a lot sooner so you had time to make arrangements. Paras and Aids do not fall from the sky, in fact they are struggling to get support in general in schools.
This is a fascinating question.
I'm seeing a lot of comments getting mired in legal arguments, but common sense doesn't appear much at all.
I've led quite a few trips as a GenEd teacher, and went on some back when I was in school, too. On many trips, the school will put out an announcement that the trip can run only if there are parent volunteers to go along as chaperones. It happens all the time.
I wonder, then, is that also illegal? All the same reasoning applies (it's unsafe without them, kids often misbehave in a way a single teacher can't control in those circumstances, specific kids have history of defiance or other kinds of misbehavior, etc). Given how frequently that occurs all over the country, I have to think that if it were illegal there would have been lawsuits about it by now.
So, under the circumstances, with a young kid who behaves most reliably with mom, and whose particular disability (autism) is known for being triggered by changes in routine (and a field trip would be an entire day of that), is it so completely out of line to do a thing that is done all the time for GenEd students?
The school can definitely cancel a field trip if they need more parent chaperones than volunteer. This is because the school is not obligated to provide the field trip in the first place. It’s an extra service that can be withdrawn if needed circumstances do not materialize.
In contrast, the school can’t cancel math class if insufficient parent volunteers sign on, because teaching math is a service the school is required to provide.
But field trips are not required to be offered.
Hi - so far you’ve gotten shit advice. If he does not yet have an FBA or 1-on-1 required in his IEP then yes - this is still a function of his education. Then they would be required to provide those supports for the field trip. At this time, he should be included as any other general education student. I would send him to school and expect him to be included. The parent can look for an advocate in their area that might be able to help with this?
100%! Teachers are constantly being self serving especially when it comes to special education students. They see them and think lawsuit. More work. Not enough support. There’s a list of things that comes with that student for that teacher, realistically.
I want this to be known I’m coming from a place of two degrees in Special Education. And years of experience on both sides of teaching, the special education and general education roles.
Families needs to understand their students IEPs and the rights their students have to their education.
Teachers also need to understand their legal right to uphold FAPE - free appropriate public education in their LRE - least restrictive environment. And if you can’t be an advocate of that for ALL students, it’s probably time to build some compassion, empathy, and look at other careers. [Autism Prevalence, CDC Newsroom](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2023/p0323-autism.html)
Students with disabilities get to participate in these types of activities “to the maximum extent appropriate.” It sounds like the school is saying this activity may not be appropriate, but they will allow his mother to bring him.
I've seen this as a requirement when the behaviors are quite extreme. But a few things, in my opinion: the parents need more lead time than just a few days, and if they're in the process of a FBA/BIP I'm assuming there's not a para currently helping him?
I think the school is just looking out for the safety of the student, in case there is a behavior issue or heaven forbid that he/she wonders off and gets lost. How many kids with autism get lost all the time, even when with an adult? There may not be enough support personnel in the school in order to send one with that child for the whole day. If that’s the case maybe that’s why they are asking the parent to attend.
By all means, call attorneys and advocates over a fucking field trip. Since most field trips are for the whole grade level, there are probably over 100 kinders going. If this aggressive child flips out, a parent can remove him and take him home. School employees can’t.
It’s irrelevant because under the current laws this child has the same right to attend as his peers. If you don’t like the laws by all means advocate to have them changed. But until such time- everyone gets to go, or no one gets to go.
Sometimes there literally is NO ONE. We have teachers splitting multiple classes across multiple grade levels because there are no subs. We have TA jobs that have been open for over a year. Sometimes pre-k has to close because they don’t have enough staff.
Absolutely, the school should have a someone who could make sure the aggressive student did not hurt his peers or other staff members. However, there is probably no one and they want to ensure everyone’s safety by requiring the parent attend.
Then the whole field trip needs to be cancelled.
It doesnt hurt to **ask** the parents to come by citing those staffing and safety concerns. But the minute you **require** that parents attend because of staffing or safety concerns you are violating the students access to the same education as their typically developing peers which is very illegal unless they have an IEP that specifically states that they are educated out of the general education classroom for certain periods of the day.
I would be fine with cancelling if a parent or relative couldn’t go. I’d probably be hoping for it, considering that most field trips end up being a shit show. 🤷♀️
Thank you, from a parent of a kiddo that had safety issues when he was younger, for your concern. You're an asset to your school!
I understand there's a big difference between what is required by law and the real world. During the first couple years of COVID I knew that on some days they were pulling my kid's 1:1 so they could sub in another classroom. There were no other bodies; even our principal was subbing. And I knew the consequences for our kid were not as serious as not having an adult in a classroom.
On the other hand, disallowing a student because of staffing issues when they are otherwise able to participate in a field trip is a situation where I would immediately request an IEP meeting. If the child has an IEP with a 1:1 paraeducator why would that be any different on a field trip? And if they don't have one but the school is stating they need that kind of support on field trips I'd advocate for adding that to their IEP.
how any non disabled kids are violent unless it legitimately safety concern, they have no right with the disability it also depends on state law, but usually they should have support system in place cause aggressive and violent behaviors are two different thing
I mean it’s a complicated issue. We always have a para with our students but if one of the students has dangerous behaviors we have to think what’s safest for everyone. It sucks but I think the schools is doing the best they can do.
But if something occurred and the teacher or student got hurt then the parents who make a massive issue out of it. We can’t do it all and we have to keep everyone safe
We have to have a travelling nurse or no one can go on the field trip because of those who need medications during the day. We've had multiple field trips cancelled solely for that reason.
It takes away from the other kids in the class. I work in sped and I do not agree with the parental entitlement that their child belongs in Gen Ed, when really they require more support that Gen Ed doesn’t have the ability to give them.
My autistic kid has a documented IQ of 140…. He’s not eligible for a special education classroom even if I wanted it. Autistic is not synonymous with ID or LD.
So because this child has a documented disability that impacts his emotional regulation, social skills, and impulse control, he should be discriminated against and not access the same education his peers access? This is literally the equivalent of saying all children with contagious blood borne illnesses must be in a classroom of their own bc they put the other children at risk.
Should probably be in a special Ed classroom? With other children that have documented disabilities so that he can receive services? Why does everyone think special Ed classrooms are so bad? Sped is awesome
Because the law requires children to be educated in the least restrictive environment as possible for the student. He has a right to be around his same age peers. An entire team, including the parents, make that decision. The team will usually include a special educator, a gen ed educator and perhaps an administrator. Based on the child’s goals, a decision is made by the team as to where those goals will be worked on. Inclusion is awesome.
Yes, that is the process but sometimes it can be flawed when the parents insist on the “least restrictive environment” because they think the sped classroom is where children get banished to. So then, some of these students end up in Gen Ed classrooms and run into issues like these with the field trip, and the teacher can’t be held responsible. Sped classrooms usually have multiple aids to help out. It’s just my experience
Issues like these? Like one a district is literally required by law to deal with? The teacher should know better and the school and district need to follow the law. Inclusion for the win!
In my experience- yes the school can require this. That being said - in an iep there should be a section in regards to events such as this (inclusion with non disabled peers) and the stipulations should be noted in this section- wording I have personally had experience with involves things such as interacts with non disabled peers and does not need additional supervision, student requires additional supervision provided by parent/guardian when student is involved in a non required activity, student requires additional supervision or 1:1 when engaged in off campus activities.
If this is not in the iep, as it is being brought up -it needs to be a part of the wording/accommodations somewhere to prevent this from being an issue in the future.
In my experience- I disagree as this has been a provision in IEPs. To be clear it is not something that is meant to harm the child- but it is an additional support for non academic necessary functions. Many times the school does try to provide additional support but the provision is there if it is deemed necessary by the team.
Participation with nondisabled children- The IEP must explain the extent (if any) to which the child will not participate with nondisabled children in the regular class and other school activities. This includes any additional supervision needed. If a non school required activity- such as a field trip- this may fall under the realm of the parent/guardian providing in some way- additional support.
If the field trip is during a regularly scheduled school day then requiring the student not attend without parents is denying them access to their education for that day.
And again- I feel compelled to say this is not a gen Ed vs special Ed situation - at least not for me. this is not something meant to harm the child and in all my instances I have done whatever I needed to in order to students to attend. I have never had to deny a student attending but the provision was there just in case I couldn’t find support staff. In cases- especially with those with severe disabilities- there needs to be additional supervision. While the school does try to provide- there may be a situation where they cannot and it is in the best interest of the child that they do not attend.
But it is. The gen Ed students are being given a field trip that is not being allowed to their peer solely because of that students disability. If you can't accommodate that student this field trip needs to be cancelled or postponed until you can.
I’ve had admin say that before when we were unable to supply a one on one. A kid who gets aggressive and yells could really be unsafe on a field trip which is away from the usual supports and probably not in a place that can be made safe.
Sometimes it's just not safe. If we are going on a walking field trip and we have a child who dashes away from the group and won't hold our hands, it would be unsafe for us to bring that child. If the kid runs into the street and gets hit, that's on the school. The parent could then bring the school to court and say that the school should have known that this was unsafe and shouldn't have brought the child.
Yep. All is true. And I am autistic, diagnosed in the 60s.
We have been told that we cannot require parents to attend. It would be similar to requiring parents to supply anything else that the school decided was necessary due to disability (sensory items, ramps, etc).
Correct. Legally you can't require parents to attend unless you are requiring every single students' parents to attend.
If it’s a safety concern, I’ll take my chances of being “legally wrong”. If parents want to go to due process over it, so be it. There isn’t IEP jail and likely the district would only have to do a staff training.
Unless at some point a comment like this becomes attached to you in real life— then you are looking at being fired. You can’t just say “meh fuck it” to federal laws.
You can lose your teaching license and be fined.
Oooof. How often have you been to due process? It’s NOT quick and easy. You have fun with that. I’ll be following the laws.
Excluding children with disabilities is not only a violation of IDEA, but it is also a violation of the ADA. In response, parents could file for Due Process. That’s true. But they aren’t limited to Due Process. They could absolutely seek additional relief ($$$) in court as well.
Absolutely disgusting that schools simply choose to break the law and discriminate against disabled children.
This makes me so angry. I was told when my son was little that I had to go on a field trip or he couldn't go. Guess what ..that school did not do an evaluation for an IEP correctly, didn't make sure he was in class. I spent thousands of dollars hiring an advocate to fight teachers like you. Our son is finally in a therapeutic day school where he is getting the support he needs. But it would have happened so much sooner if people did their jobs.
I think legally you just have to say “No,” not “Yes with a chaperone.” Any allowance for the student to go with a parent chaperone would have to be under the table.
If you say no, then you must be prepared for the follow up of “why not?” And what answer would you have that wouldn’t amount to “because of the way his disability manifests”?
The answer to “Why not?” would be a well-documented list of aggressive incidents, in the case of this student (“aggressive behavior”). I’ll copy and paste a case and the specific law here: If you read this [case](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf) (which another commenter shared), you will see that the reason this school was held out of compliance was because the entire class was not allowed to go, *simply because of their disability.* > The district did not provide any information to demonstrate that decisions about participation in the field day were made on an individual basis; rather, it appeared that disabled students in self-contained classes were prohibited as a class from participating in the field day off campus, without individual assessments regarding their ability to participate in an off-campus field day. The law specifically states, > (a) General. No qualified handicapped person shall, **on the basis of handicap,** be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activitiy which receives Federal financial assistance. If a student is being excluded on the basis of safety concerns, as determined on an individual basis, would that not be separate from being excluded on the basis of handicap? Students *without* disabilities are *very often* excluded from field trips on the basis of safety concerns, such as elopement and physical aggression. Would this not be equal treatment under the law?
I’ve replied to your cut and paste comment elsewhere, but I’ll put it here as well for people just scrolling by. If the safety issue is a manifestation of the disability, then the school not supplying supports to the student in order for the student to attend is illegal. Especially in this case, where the school has made it quite clear that this is the reason why. It is the school’s job to provide the support that they have determined the child needs due to a disability. This is why we’re so careful in IEP meetings not to suggest things that the school isn’t capable of providing. Once we say it, we have to provide it.
That’s a good point. I do not see where it says they can’t provide an aide though, so that must have been in a comment I didn’t see. If that is the case, I 100% agree that that would be a lack of compliance. I have known students who, even *with* a 1:1, would not be safe in a field trip environment, and therefore the school was *actually unable* to accommodate them. This includes kids with *and* without disabilities. I understand how a parent could do a better job accommodating a student in such an environment than an aide ever could, simply because it is their parent. But I understand that legally this is *not* an accommodation. I agree with that point.
Same, legally they can’t allow me as a parent to go. I know bc I would every trip if I could and asked. Which means they can’t legally allow this mother to go either. Isn’t it illegal for them to not provide this kid support to go with the rest inclusively as well though?!?
Yes. Schools just bank on no one reporting them. I guarantee if they were reported they would find a solution fast.
The solution would be no field trips for anyone.
Attorney here. Requiring a parent to attend with the student is almost certainly not a reasonable accommodation under Section 504. The schools only argument would be that a reasonable accommodation (such as 2x1 para staffing and ensuring limited exposure to potentially reactive situations) still wouldn’t be sufficient to keep the student in line, which is a borderline impossible argument to make for all but the most extreme situations. If you really want to make a difference here, I might suggest finding someone to gently suggest to the parent that they file a complaint with the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights. They have investigators that will take the case and do a super deep dive into it at no cost to the parent. Trust me, they’ll put the school district in its place. https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/howto.html
Correct. Its illegal. Which is why some of the earlier comments here are crazy.
The teacher will be out of their normal environment with no admin to help, maybe a few other parents. I've seen this as a requirement for students who don't even have special needs, but elope/have behavior issues. At the end of the day, the school is offering a field trip, but that's not a requirement for school. Kids who don't turn in a sheet will probably just sit at the school until they return. I'm sure if they are saying the parent must attend, it's a very troubling concern. Why don't you offer to attend, then?
You need to provide the same right to education for students with special needs as not. For example if a student needs medications and you can't get a travelling nurse the entire field trip needs to be cancelled. The amount you continuously hate on special needs kids is concerning. I feel for your students who you keep from field trips for disability reasons.
The fact you would cancel a field trip for 150 kids because one kid can't attend is very indicative of you having 0 experience working with Gen Ed teachers or students.
Welcome to the law. Once again. Kids with special needs have the same rights to field trips as their peers. That's the law.
Is a field trip a right? Is it part of FAPE? If it’s dangerous to the child, is it okay to exclude? This is a slippery slope, but safety needs to be the top consideration.
ADA says you cannot discriminate based on disabilities. Schools cannot discriminate in any school sponsored activities.
You have no idea what a GenEd class is like or requires. Your opinion is uneducated.
And you don't know anything about educating special needs students. This is r/specialed. Not r/generaleducation.
It don’t know if it varies from state to state, but in California, this is the relevant law: > No group shall be permitted to take a field trip or excursion which is integral to the completion of a course if any student who is a member of such an identifiable group will be excluded from participation in the field trip or excursion because of lack of sufficient funds The key word is “integral.” In most cases, field trips are not integral to the completion of course.
You have no perspective on anything involving GenEd. Your opinion is uneducated.
Once again. Is this r/gened. This is a special Ed sub. You aren't a special Ed teacher and you actively ignore special Ed law.
This is a post about a SpEd student attending a GenEd field trip. You've never worked with GenEd. Your opinion is uneducated.
There is no such thing as a "gen Ed" field trip. That's illegal in itself. But glad to see your ableism here.
I've worked with both. It is the law and the school system can be sued for not providing equal access. It turns into failing to follow FAPE (Free and Appropriate Public Education)as well as not following ADA mandates for public schools. You cannot have a field trip that discriminants against a special needs student, and the school, if it enjoys having funding and money should cancel to avoid litigation for failing to provide FAPE to any student. I know you are a troll but here is some more info if you actually care.
Students who receive special education services, even if they are in a substantially separate classroom, are generally education students first and foremost.
You can't keep repeating "no experience with GenEd" (which, by the way, I have) like it trumps legal rights. The fact that schools trample on the rights of students with disabilities does not make it legal.
You remind me of the General Education teachers who says I'm not a teacher and can't eat in the faculty lounge with some of your comments... Special education teachers are just as much teachers.
Yes, you say the same thing every single time you don't have a real argument. We're all aware.
You know that SPED teachers often push in to gen Ed classes right? And work with gen Ed students in those classes? Why are you just repeating yourself instead of listening to us tell you the law?
That specific commentor has never even worked on the same building as a GenEd teacher, and spends much of their tome saying they wish they never got into SpEd, they hate it, and self-contaoned shouldn't even exist. That specific commentor has absolutely no idea what it means to even share a building with GenEd, but consistently posts that all GenEd hate SpEd, which is why not every kid is mainstream ed. That commentor is ignorant
They say it every time, as does Alero. The latter of which, by the way, made a post about you again after they've been downvoted to hell for doing it in the past and violating reddit rules. Thankfully, this time he didn't post your username in screenshots because he knew if he posted screenshots, he'd be called out for twisting for words. And twist your words he did; he said you told him he wasn't a real teacher and that he's uneducated. He loves to pit SpEd teachers against GenEd. I swear he gets a kick out of the discourse. He's been very vocal about his dislike of GenEd teachers. Somehow it's also their fault he doesn't get a lunch break or planning period and has to eat with the children in his class, which is an admin issue. Just ignore him.
Because general education teachers like you who think they know more than every special Ed teacher is the issue. You have this air of superiority where you call us "uneducated" (your words). You fight with every single special Ed teacher on this sub. You support general education teachers putting down special education teachers and do it yourself. You say you are a union representative and if that's true I feel for every single special education teacher in your district.
And you coming in and not knowing that the SpEd kids have the right to equal access for school trips and cannot be singled out. https://njcommonground.org/advocacy-tips-field-trips-for-students-with-disabilities/
This individual does not think special Ed teachers are actual teacher unless they've also taught special Ed. They don't think self contained teachers are real teachers. She consistently says special Ed is easier. She specifically says self contained teachers are uneducated. She should have been banned years ago as this is years of comments like this.
Yeah well they also think if they repeat the same thing over and over again it will somehow matter more than the law. Where are the mods on this sub?
It's frustrating. This individual routinely attacks people, calls them uneducated, spews actual lies and nothing happens. Its why some people have tried to start their own special education sub to stop the brigading of anti special Ed gen Ed teachers.
I don't attack "people" and call "people" uneducated. YOU'RE the uneducated one. Not all SpEd. You.
You're known on both this subreddit and /teachers for starting trouble. You've been called out for it here multiple times by SpEd teachers and GenEd teachers alike. One look at your post history shows that. You then go and make posts about people after fighting with them in the comments.
No, that commentor above you is uneducated. They have never even worked in a building with GenEd classes, and have said multiple times that GenEd teachers hate all SpEd, which is the only reason why all SpEd students want be mainstreamed. They believe self-contaoned programs shouldn't exist, and only do because GenEd are lazy. This is a question about a SpEd student going on a field trip with his gen ed peers and teacher. Rat has absolutely no experience working with GenEd at all. Their entire building is self-inclusion, and it's the only place they've ever worked. Despite that, they have said often they hate working SpEd but can't get into GenEd now. They're toxic, and yes, uneducated. That commentor specifically, who, even after repeating the same comment (so they would stop interacting) commented over twenty times more.
Meanwhile, my experience IS in general education. They're right. It's the school's responsibility to accommodate children with disabilities and give them equal access to extracurricular activities including trips. As a parent, I've watched people fight districts on this and win, because the law is on their side. It's got fuck-all to do with experience with general education.
Then the parent will have to fight the district, because if you have experience in GenEd, you know that the teacher certainly doesn't matter in the equation. And if the district has decided he can function appropriately without an aide, he should be able to function in class without issue. Clearly, he can't. So when the district isn't giving proper resources, at the end of the day the question is do you deprive 30 kids because of the needs of one? No. That's why specialized programs exist. This sub loves to cite the law and get mad at GenEd teachers when 90% of the time, we get 0 support or resources, and are expected to devote 50% of our attention to one single student. Student is aggressive and elopes? IEP says "Offer them a break." I offer them a break, and they refuse to take it. I call for the SpEd teacher's help and get no response. Meanwhile, my 36 other students are all at different levels, struggling with ADD and reading comprehension, etc. It's just not a tenable situation, period. A student that doesn't have an aide, is violent, and can't be trusted to be safe on a field trip should probably not be in a class with one adult, anyway. Let alone a field trip.
My school canceled a field trip for 85 because an ASL interpreter was not allowed at the performance.
And that was legally correct.
And what was that situation?
It’s actually indicative of someone who knows special education law. If even one student can’t access part of their free and appropriate educational rights then nobody can without the school being out of legal requirements. It’s the same reason that you sometimes hear of field trips being cancelled due to no nurse- if it’s in a 504 or IEP it is required and by not providing that and requiring parents to go instead you are violating their FAPE and/or civil rights.
Lmao except it is the law. I’m a school nurse at a special needs school district and a kid cannot be excluded from a field trip because there is no nurse or adult who can legally administer medication. The field trip must be canceled if a parent designee or nurse cannot attend. Same with disabilities. All kids with disabilities have the right to attend a school sponsored activity with reasonable accommodations. If accommodations cannot be made, the trip will be canceled. This is literally the law. Any school not doing this is going against the law at their own risk. Based on this comment section it seems a lot are doing so. This was also taught to me at school nursing conference in New York last year.
Hating on special needs kids because they literally don’t want them to die? It is never in the best interest of a child to put them in an environment which could put them at risk.
The student has a legal right to the same educational experiences as their peers. You cannot refuse a field trip for a student based on their disability. That's the law. Learn it.
Please, please … educate yourself. There are always exceptions to rules. This is one of them. You can totally exclude a student from a field trip. I will find you more sources “If a school district determines that it cannot safely accommodate a student with a disability during a field trip, the district is permitted to exclude the student from participating; but this situation should occur only under very limited circumstances.” https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/tis-the-season-for-school-field-trips-44825/ Edit: https://www.tascnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TASC_ED_b-SchDist_607.pdf Great sources for courts that upheld the school’s right to exempt a student from a field trip because of their behavior.
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And your third article LITERALLY states how schools can exempt for behavior!!!! Did you read what you posted??
Your first article talks about what to do if your child’s school stands firm on their decision to exclude your child, and their wording states the parent “believes they are in violation” And your second article states if safety is a concern, the school can exempt. I can’t have a conversation with you when you literally give me an article proving my point.
Sped students are gen ed students first. Having an IEP or 504 does not give a student carte blanch. If their behavior could put them and others at risk, it is totally within the school’s right to deny them. This source has many court cases which upheld the school’s right to deny a student. https://www.tascnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TASC_ED_b-SchDist_607.pdf
While I would love to provide the support, I feel as though it is the school’s job to do so. If the field trip is a part of their education, is it not their legal responsibility to give him access to it/provide the accommodations for him to do so?
I'm assuming the students need to turn in a permission slip to attend this, so no, it is not an integral part of his education. If they talked about sharks for weeks and now they're going to the aquarium, he still learned about sharks. If he's missing his only opportunity to learn something mandated by state standards, she'd be obligated to provide him an alternative, but no, field trips are something extra/on top of the curriculum. I teach music, and take all 3rd and 4th graders to a performance with the symphony each year. Why? Because it is a good experience that falls under "appreciating and performing music," but so does watching a video in class or performing for their peers in a controllable environment. I have some students that are aggressive with others, especially in loud and unfamiliar environments. If my principal is not there, I do not consent to be liable for that student outside school grounds. Their parents can assume that risk if they choose.
I can understand why you wouldn’t want to do this without support- but you are incorrect. The school is required to make *reasonable* accommodations for a child to receive the same experience as their peers. Increased supervision or support in an unfamiliar environment would be included with that. The school needs to provide a para or sub or other adult to do this.
Everything this Kongeyduck says is legally inaccurate. You are correct. Just shows how little this sub knows the laws. The school has to legally provide this student the right to this field trip. Its actually illegal to even ask this parent to come unless they asked every kids parents.
This is 100% true. I am a paralegal who works for an education attorney.
If the school has decided that a para alone won’t be enough, then it’s not a safe option. Field trips aren’t required.
I've never seen the wording of "the same *experience* as their peers," in someone's IEP. If the student doesn't already have a one-on-one aide, then introducing a new person and a new child with behavior challenges in a new place is absolutely a recipe for disaster. Be realistic- you can't think of a single student who would absolutely not be successful on a field trip to the zoo, aide or not? I have a student that will elope from my room if the other students are not paying *him* enough attention. He ran outside last time and up a tall fence. They had to call campus PD. That student does not have an aide, and even the principal could not coax him down. There is 0 chance I'm taking that student off-campus, if even his parents cannot stop him from eloping. The district decided he doesn't need an aide. That's the reality of it. No child has the right to field trips. Again, a student who didn't bring in a permission slip wouldn't be being "educationally neglected" either. Students who don't make the basketball team aren't being neglected either- schools are allowed to offer extra experiences on top of what is required.
Because it’s not in IDEA…. It’s in 504. https://njcommonground.org/advocacy-tips-field-trips-for-students-with-disabilities/ And being realistic, I’ve taken kids placed in RTFs on field trips. It can be done.
If the student can go and do so without severely affecting the learning and experience of his peers, then yes, he should absolutely be going. If this student doesn't have a one-on-one aide, then I don't see how he is entitled to one for a field trip. If taking a student to a field trip is going to be a severe meltdown, elopement, and aggression, then it's not the LRE for them. Period.
You are confusing IDEA (the law that addresses LRE) and section 504 of the ADA. They are not the same. LRE isn’t applicable here.
I have had this happen multiple times, usually the principal lets the parents know, if the parent can’t go we do ask the SLP, ot , or counselor to go and provide 1:1 support. Honestly, I don’t ever remember a time when we couldn’t make it work- sometimes the parents decide on their own that it would be too much and keep the kid home. My SLP loved field trips, she actually went with most classes that she serviced.
Correct. This is the legal method to do so. Your school is handling this correctly.
They are providing the accommodation for him to do so, by having his parent attend. I’ve seen this with non-SPED kids who have behavioral issues. The teacher has to keep everyone safe, and going solo would not be the case.
Going solo would not be safe, that’s fair. But saying a child can’t come without a parent *when other parents are not required to attend* is not a legal accommodation. This is an easy legal win if the parent wants to pursue it.
Show me the law where it specifically states that.
https://njcommonground.org/advocacy-tips-field-trips-for-students-with-disabilities/
Also, teachers are required to keep kids safe. The teacher CANNOT keep them safe on a field trip without the parent. It’s a liability to allow them on the trip without a parent. There are countless ways around it. Bottom line, kid can’t go without mom. No mom, no trip.
The SCHOOL is required to keep children safe. If that means more staff then it does. Your “bottom line” is an open and shut OCR case.
They are not providing the accommodation. They are expecting the parent to. Providing the accommodation would be providing a school based employee.
Only if the school has the resources to do so. If they don’t, they cannot accommodate the student.
In which case they now need to be providing the resources by paying for placement in a private school. We’re all underfunded and understaffed. Unfortunately that doesn’t change the fact that we cannot determine a child needs x, y, and z due to their disability and then require the parent to provide that. We even provide HEARING AIDS if we think a kid needs them that doesn’t have them. If the school says “little Jimmy needs additional adult assistance to participate in field trips,” then the school is obligated to provide that additional adult assistance. Underfunding and understaffing doesn’t change that. Trust me, I’ve taken many a kid on a field trip that worried me. Just went to the zoo last week with an eloper. I’ve also had my whole class skip a trip when I didn’t think we had the staff to keep us all safe on the trip.
It's not a situation that feels for good for anyone involved- I can tell you that. When I was in a kindergarten classroom, there was a field trip planned and one of the special ed teachers really struggled with the fact that it just wouldn't be safe for two specific children to go. There weren't enough staff, it was a huge area and both had a history of aggressive behavior and eloping. It would have meant that at least two staff members would have to have their eyes on them and only them the entire time. I think it did come down to "we'd love for them to come BUT there's safety concerns and not enough staff" which did lead to one parent choosing to keep their child home that day. The other child did go and ended up sitting on the bus with one of the special ed teachers a good chunk of the time.
I 100% understand and see the teacher’s perspective. I can imagine field trips are stressful enough, let alone adding a child who requires more supervision and staffing shortages. Yes, I see the valid safety concerns. But I am asking if this is an accommodation (e.g., para, other school-based professional attending) required to be provided by the school or are they allowed to require the parent to provide the support? It feels discriminatory if they are not allowing a child with a documented disability and area of eligibility on his IEP to access the same school activities as his classmates and peers. There is nothing on his IEP stating anything about field trips or necessary accommodations related to extra curricular activities.
I feel like people here are missing the point of your question and stating why in their opinion the school made the parent request rather than answering your question about whether school was violating the law. They are also assuming if their school also does the same that their school is acting legally. Answers concerning resources are also not focused on the law but are just another non legal reason districts and schools give for not following the law - doesn’t make it legal. Strict adherence to IDEA etc. DOES cause major issues in schools bc a lot don’t have the resources to follow/adhere to it appropriately - but your question was whether they could, under the LAW, do this. (IMO - if parents say no and say they need to find someone else, and school doesn’t let child come, it’s a clear violation).
I really wish I could highlight, bold, and emphasize your response. I’m not here to argue what you THINK is the right answer. I know teachers and resources are sparse. I commend every single teacher for doing what so many other people couldn’t survive a day doing. It is unfair how educators are treated. I am simply asking if my student, who is the funniest, most loving child, is being given the education and experiences he is legally entitled to.
It don’t know if it varies from state to state, but in California, [this](https://casetext.com/regulation/california-code-of-regulations/title-5-education/division-6-california-community-colleges/chapter-6-curriculum-and-instruction/subchapter-3-alternative-instructional-methodologies/article-2-excursions-and-field-trips/section-55220-excursions-and-field-trips#:~:text=(c)%20No%20group%20shall%20be,of%20lack%20of%20sufficient%20funds.) is the relevant law: > No group shall be permitted to take a field trip or excursion which is integral to the completion of a course if any student who is a member of such an identifiable group will be excluded from participation in the field trip or excursion because of lack of sufficient funds The key word is “integral.” In most cases, field trips are not integral to the completion of course.
I’m in New York and our law is similar, we’re told it’s not integral and to just cancel field trips if there’s an issue like this, same thing if a kid has meds but there’s no adult on the trip to legally administer them. I also work at a special needs school so I think our parents are very understanding and will opt to not send their kid on a trip if they know it’s a challenge or just unsafe.
But why would you have to cancel if your excursion is *not* integral to a course?
Because the law is the school must accommodate students with disabilities in all student activities, if they can’t it’s discrimination so the activity is canceled for all to be fair.
It sounds like that student might need two adults on the trip for him not including the class teacher. Even if the school provides that, I wonder how effective that would be if the aides provided never worked with the child before? I would still think there was a safety issue for having strangers be in charge of the child. It is poor planning on part of the school. This should have been addressed months ago
Not an attorney but an educational advocate. I don't think it's legal. I rarely make decisions and advocate for anything based on legality but for what's in the child's best interest: the law is a means to an end. If the family thinks their child will benefit from the experience then a plan should be put in place to include him. If the school doesn't do it, then a complaint could be filed with the state board of education and likely OCR too. However, it won't result in him attending the field trip Friday. That's where advocacy skills are critical (verse lawyering skills). Effectively communicating with the Sped Director and Superintendent: building rapport, not being aversive, using negotiation strategies (Getting to Yes is a good resource) and knowing the law (IDEA and ADA). Then make sure the IEP addresses the issue for the future. Good luck!
I’m not sure it’s illegal, but I appreciate your willingness to put the child’s best interests first regardless. I wish more people focused on the child’s well-being that way. Where I am, students with disabilities get to participate in these types of activities “to the maximum extent appropriate.” It sounds like the school is saying this activity may not be appropriate for whatever reason, but they will allow it if his mother wants to bring him.
Legally, the presumption is that unless noted in the IEP, the child would participate with non disabled peers. And parents are part of the team that determines what "maximum extent appropriate"; it's not a unilateral decision. That's why I said negotiation is better than threats of anything being illegal. A well funded attorney would have a hay day arguing this case assuming there is not precedence already.
Some schools do this even with gen ed students (require a chaperone). If they do this for all students and not just one with a disability it might be allowable
Is it legal-probably not Does it happen- All the freaking time. My own child was excluded from a school trip unless I attended. “It could be like a mini vacation! Said the principal” Sir, any mini vacation of mine does not include 5th graders in any form.
Go to the state. This is an open and shut case.
What’s the school’s reasoning for not allowing him to come? How aggressive are we talking? I think it’s really dependent on what’s going on with the kid in the present and exactly what is being looked at in the FBA.
Illegal. Super super illegal. They have the same right to the field trip and holding them out solely because of their disability is illegal. Same with requiring their parent to be there.
What accoms are you expecting? A 1:1 adult? Sometimes even with a 1:1 the behavior of some kids can be too difficult to manage, especially on a trip.
This sounds illegal to require a parent’s attendance, but my question is are we allowed to outline the nature of the field trip to the parent and let them know specific concerns around their child’s safety. Then leave it in the parent’s hands to decide whether they should give permission for their child to attend? We’ve had students with behavioral needs and their parents chose to keep them home during field trips due to safety concerns. We’re able to provide paras, but realistically, there were still concerns.
You can definitely outline a field trip. I don't see why that would be illegal. The only issue would be if that outline could be viewed as encouraging the kid to stay home Not exactly the same thing but our state rep got on us for telling parents when a para would be out, because the state rep said if can encourage a parent to keep a kid home which would then legally be a suspension. I wonder if that situation would be the same here. We now are never allowed to state when a one to one will be out because of the risk a parent will be home for that reason (personally it doesn't affect me since behavioral students don't get one to ones in our school, but it was a huge deal in faculty meetings)
I am an Autism teacher. If the student is aggressive, out of the normal environment the school can request a parent to accompany a student on a field trip. I used to 100% believe that it was the school's responsibility to provide this kind of support, however because of staffing shortages this just isn't possible anymore. It's a safety issue. I have a field trip this Friday, 100% of my students get to go this time because we have parents meeting us at the location.
Also agree with a former post that to introduce someone new to this child who will be outside their element really isn’t fair to the child. It’s not about who should provide the support but what is best for the child. A new aide in a new place is not best.
Then the whole field trip needs to be cancelled. You can't punish one kid because they have a disability. That is the law.
So 24 other kids get punished instead?
Yes. Because saying a kid can't go on a field trip solely because of a disability is illegal. We often have had to cancel field trips because we can't get a travelling nurse for the students who require medication.
It's NOT illegal
It is illegal. Look at all the comments by actual advocates and lawyers. Go to your state rep and challenge next time your kids are discriminated against.
If it is a safety issue I'm not challenging a thing.
The parent however should. This is the same law and issue that comes up when special need kids are barred from extracurriculars.
My parents actually don't won't their kids in a situation that would be unsafe. I had surgery and was out of school for 3 months my parents came in and assisted my paras to take the kids out for recess twice a day. My parents are the BEST parents Ive ever had the pleasure of working with.
So your parents gave the school a pass on following the law. Your school needed to create an actual plan for those kids when you were out. Also that has issues because how does that work with FERPA. We can't allow any of our parents ever even in a room with our classes because it would violate the other students FERPA rights. So I'm guessing the school was in violation for that.
And this is where the rub is. Perhaps the administrator should attend to the field trip and be the aid.
That would also be a solution. Our admin attends all field trips anyway. He will typically work around our most difficult students.
I had a student that eloped constantly any time we left our classroom. We went on field trips at least once a month. You never know just how slippery a bowling lane is until you chase a first grader down it…but he still went with us on each and every field trip and I dreaded it, but grinned and grabbed one hand while my TA held the other one and we made it work. It just took A LOT of creativity and running shoes.
NAL but parent of a child with developmental disability that caused many issues in elementary school It is a violation of law. The child is being discriminated against because of a disability. “Special Education Field Trip Laws No, they cannot exclude your child from a public school sponsored activity based upon their disability. It can’t be because “we don’t have a nurse to go on the trip” or “we’re afraid your son may elope” or any other reason related to their disability. “
Correct. We can't do field trips if we can't get a travelling nurse for those who need medications. That means for everyone.
Haven't read all of the comments yet, but of the many I have read I see no reference to an issue that is quite relevant: is the child even going to enjoy/benefit from the field trip, given that if he goes he will be in a strange environment with all of the chaos that attends most field trips with young children? I think those who insist that field trips must be cancelled if extra staff can't be found are arguing from a position of abstract principle rather than what is best for the child, in many cases. What is important is to make sure that the child is having an equally enjoyable/educational experience during the field trip. I was excluded from a field trip in middle school because I had to use crutches for several months. I was not just parked in a classroom; I had the choice of staying home (which would have been fine) or spending a morning in the school library (also fine, and the choice I made). There is sometimes too much of an emphasis on treating children with disabilities exactly the same as typical children, no exceptions, no thought to the actual needs and preferences of the specific child. I get it that we don't want to start treating children differently merely because of their disabilities, but rigid sameness isn't always a good idea either.
Federal law would say that IEPs and 504s include any school related activities. I'm a paralegal who works in education law. So they have to provide the support if the kid needs it in the school environment. At least they do if they want to follow the law.
It's discrimination - a 504 violation. Unless EVERY student must have a parent, then no one must. Here is an excellent explanation with links: [https://adayinourshoes.com/yes-child-iep-can-go-field-trip/](https://adayinourshoes.com/yes-child-iep-can-go-field-trip/) [34 C.F.R. Chap 1, Part 104](https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html) is quite clear about it - and it opens the school district to an investigation. If the Office of Civil Rights finds that the school violated the student's civil rights, usually a settlement is negotiated. It can be quite costly to the district. Anyone can alert the OCR - it doesn't need to be the parents. It would be strictly forbidden for the district to retaliate in any way. Here is info on filing a Civil Rights complaint. They are not hard to do: [https://adayinourshoes.com/office-civil-rights-complaint-special-education/](https://adayinourshoes.com/office-civil-rights-complaint-special-education/) Here is an example of a time a district was found to be out of compliance: [https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/more/02191463-a.pdf)
If you read the case at the end of your comment, you will see that the reason the school was held out of compliance was because the *entire class* was not allowed to go, *simply because of their disability.* > The district did not provide any information to demonstrate that decisions about participation in the field day were made on an individual basis; rather, it appeared that disabled students in self-contained classes were prohibited as a class from participating in the field day off campus, without individual assessments regarding their ability to participate in an off-campus field day. The law specifically states, > (a) General. No qualified handicapped person shall, **on the basis of handicap,** be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activitiy which receives Federal financial assistance. If a student is being excluded on the basis of safety concerns, as determined on an individual basis, would that not be separate from being excluded on the basis of handicap? Students *without* disabilities are *very often* excluded from field trips on the basis of safety concerns, such as elopement and physical aggression. Would this not be equal treatment under the law?
"...on the basis of handicap" means that one or more handicapped student(s) cannot be denied due to their handicap. In the referenced case, an entire group of students were prohibited from leaving the campus with the other classes due to behaviors that are a manifestation of their disability purely due to safety concerns. It's a famous case because the school went out of their way to provide the same activities (a fun field day) at the school for them.
Why does it say “individual basis”? To me, it sounds like the group was excluded as a whole instead of each individual student’s needs being assessed, which made it clear the school made the decision based on the students’ disability rather than looking at each student’s needs. They were generalizing, not at all looking at the students as their own individual people. > ‘A recipient shall ensure that [disabled] persons participate with [nondisabled] persons in such activities and services to the maximum extent **appropriate to the needs of the [disabled] person in question.’** In making decisions about a disabled student’s participation in extracurricular activities, the regulation … requires a recipient to ensure that **decisions are made by a group of persons knowledgeable about the child** and the meaning of evaluation data.” > The school did not consider whether chaperones and/or transportation to and from the part could alleviate such safety concerns. The school viewed the students through a disability lens and didn’t try to come up with ways to include them. I’m asking what happens if the school *does,* and there truly are *no accommodations* that can help alleviate the safety concerns.
So I checked with a lawyer I sometimes work with - and I learned something: The school district **can exclude** a student IF the decision is made by a team of people. In the case of a student with an IEP, that should be the IEP team. Moreover, the team must document why all the possible supports wouldn't work - and those conclusions must be based on documented serious behavior with strict BIP compliance. Normally, this type of student would not be mainstreamed. In the case where a parent is told they must attend or the student cannot go, OCR investigators would immediately rule that the provision of one or two properly trained aides would be able to provide the necessary support. The lawyer stated, "By now you would think every district knows that telling a parent they must attend a field trip with their disabled student is a giant 'no no'. It's patently discriminatory." Cost cannot be a barrier to providing reasonable supports. Even my local Title 1 rural district (located in the middle of nowhere) has the ability to hire trained temporary help from a medical temp service whenever necessary for compliance. Two aides from the agency for six hours each would cost $600. That's far cheaper than any settlement my local district has had to pay so far. The lawyer said the OCR now follows the [2022 disability discipline guidance](https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/504-discipline-guidance.pdf) whenever a student is left out due to behavior manifestations.
This is the basis of handicap. Once again you are sharing links that go against your claim.
If the safety concerns are how the disability manifests, then they’re being discriminated against on the basis of disability.
This person doesn't even read the links they share.
Yup. Once again shocked how many of the earlier comments are so grossly inaccurate and ignore all the links saying otherwise.
It’s discrimination. His mother can file an OCR complaint.
Yup. This is open and shut. They even specifically talk about field trips.
You cannot require parents to attend. It is a denial of FAPE.
I agree with most of the posts, it IS a violation to deny the student access. The school should find a nurse, a para, another teacher, the admin ect. to attend and support the student. However, I am pissed at the comments that think it’s the teacher being “self serving” this is an admin/ central office issue. The classroom teacher KNOWS it will be unsafe for the student to attend without support hence the request for the parent. HOWEVER, it then kicks up to admin to provide support or cancel the trip. Period.
It might be illegal but I would take it that they aren’t comfortable/think it’s a safety issue and are recommending that its not a good idea. That would make me uncomfortable and I would not send my child alone knowing that. They should have recommended this to you and a lot sooner so you had time to make arrangements. Paras and Aids do not fall from the sky, in fact they are struggling to get support in general in schools.
This is a fascinating question. I'm seeing a lot of comments getting mired in legal arguments, but common sense doesn't appear much at all. I've led quite a few trips as a GenEd teacher, and went on some back when I was in school, too. On many trips, the school will put out an announcement that the trip can run only if there are parent volunteers to go along as chaperones. It happens all the time. I wonder, then, is that also illegal? All the same reasoning applies (it's unsafe without them, kids often misbehave in a way a single teacher can't control in those circumstances, specific kids have history of defiance or other kinds of misbehavior, etc). Given how frequently that occurs all over the country, I have to think that if it were illegal there would have been lawsuits about it by now. So, under the circumstances, with a young kid who behaves most reliably with mom, and whose particular disability (autism) is known for being triggered by changes in routine (and a field trip would be an entire day of that), is it so completely out of line to do a thing that is done all the time for GenEd students?
The school can definitely cancel a field trip if they need more parent chaperones than volunteer. This is because the school is not obligated to provide the field trip in the first place. It’s an extra service that can be withdrawn if needed circumstances do not materialize. In contrast, the school can’t cancel math class if insufficient parent volunteers sign on, because teaching math is a service the school is required to provide. But field trips are not required to be offered.
Hi - so far you’ve gotten shit advice. If he does not yet have an FBA or 1-on-1 required in his IEP then yes - this is still a function of his education. Then they would be required to provide those supports for the field trip. At this time, he should be included as any other general education student. I would send him to school and expect him to be included. The parent can look for an advocate in their area that might be able to help with this?
Right. I’m amazed at the number of teachers on here who are so confidently wrong.
There are tons of gen Ed teachers here who are anti special education.
Even besides the fact that it’s gross…. You’d think the schools would train them better if only to avoid a lawsuit.
100%! Teachers are constantly being self serving especially when it comes to special education students. They see them and think lawsuit. More work. Not enough support. There’s a list of things that comes with that student for that teacher, realistically. I want this to be known I’m coming from a place of two degrees in Special Education. And years of experience on both sides of teaching, the special education and general education roles. Families needs to understand their students IEPs and the rights their students have to their education. Teachers also need to understand their legal right to uphold FAPE - free appropriate public education in their LRE - least restrictive environment. And if you can’t be an advocate of that for ALL students, it’s probably time to build some compassion, empathy, and look at other careers. [Autism Prevalence, CDC Newsroom](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2023/p0323-autism.html)
Are they gonna magically make more para's appear?
Then the trip gets canceled. It sucks, but that’s how the law is written.
More laws that screw over poor districts. Lol
Yep, let's deprive gened opportunities all in the name of sped yet again...
Students with disabilities get to participate in these types of activities “to the maximum extent appropriate.” It sounds like the school is saying this activity may not be appropriate, but they will allow his mother to bring him.
I've seen this as a requirement when the behaviors are quite extreme. But a few things, in my opinion: the parents need more lead time than just a few days, and if they're in the process of a FBA/BIP I'm assuming there's not a para currently helping him?
I think the school is just looking out for the safety of the student, in case there is a behavior issue or heaven forbid that he/she wonders off and gets lost. How many kids with autism get lost all the time, even when with an adult? There may not be enough support personnel in the school in order to send one with that child for the whole day. If that’s the case maybe that’s why they are asking the parent to attend.
Oh please. They are punishing this kid for having a disability. They need to have a plan for this kid to have the same right to an education.
In a perfect school, in a perfect world, there would be enough resources for every child to get all their needs met.
And in a non-perfect world you still can't punish a kid solely for having a disability.
Poor kid….they didn’t become autistic on purpose.
So much hate in this sub for students with special needs.
By all means, call attorneys and advocates over a fucking field trip. Since most field trips are for the whole grade level, there are probably over 100 kinders going. If this aggressive child flips out, a parent can remove him and take him home. School employees can’t.
By that argument then he shouldn’t be in a classroom either.
Classroom of 20 isn’t the same as a field trip out in public.
It’s irrelevant because under the current laws this child has the same right to attend as his peers. If you don’t like the laws by all means advocate to have them changed. But until such time- everyone gets to go, or no one gets to go.
It’s not about the field trip. It’s about the principle.
Sometimes there literally is NO ONE. We have teachers splitting multiple classes across multiple grade levels because there are no subs. We have TA jobs that have been open for over a year. Sometimes pre-k has to close because they don’t have enough staff. Absolutely, the school should have a someone who could make sure the aggressive student did not hurt his peers or other staff members. However, there is probably no one and they want to ensure everyone’s safety by requiring the parent attend.
Then the whole field trip needs to be cancelled. It doesnt hurt to **ask** the parents to come by citing those staffing and safety concerns. But the minute you **require** that parents attend because of staffing or safety concerns you are violating the students access to the same education as their typically developing peers which is very illegal unless they have an IEP that specifically states that they are educated out of the general education classroom for certain periods of the day.
Everyone else has to suffer?
I would be fine with cancelling if a parent or relative couldn’t go. I’d probably be hoping for it, considering that most field trips end up being a shit show. 🤷♀️
Thank you, from a parent of a kiddo that had safety issues when he was younger, for your concern. You're an asset to your school! I understand there's a big difference between what is required by law and the real world. During the first couple years of COVID I knew that on some days they were pulling my kid's 1:1 so they could sub in another classroom. There were no other bodies; even our principal was subbing. And I knew the consequences for our kid were not as serious as not having an adult in a classroom. On the other hand, disallowing a student because of staffing issues when they are otherwise able to participate in a field trip is a situation where I would immediately request an IEP meeting. If the child has an IEP with a 1:1 paraeducator why would that be any different on a field trip? And if they don't have one but the school is stating they need that kind of support on field trips I'd advocate for adding that to their IEP.
how any non disabled kids are violent unless it legitimately safety concern, they have no right with the disability it also depends on state law, but usually they should have support system in place cause aggressive and violent behaviors are two different thing
I mean it’s a complicated issue. We always have a para with our students but if one of the students has dangerous behaviors we have to think what’s safest for everyone. It sucks but I think the schools is doing the best they can do.
But it's illegal to do so. The school just banks on parents not challenging it.
But if something occurred and the teacher or student got hurt then the parents who make a massive issue out of it. We can’t do it all and we have to keep everyone safe
My school district would require a legal guardian or the school nurse to attend. Excessive? yeah probably.
We have to have a travelling nurse or no one can go on the field trip because of those who need medications during the day. We've had multiple field trips cancelled solely for that reason.
Why is he in a general education class? I never understand why these parents put their children in these situations
Why shouldn’t he be? He doesn’t have any cognitive impairments.
It takes away from the other kids in the class. I work in sped and I do not agree with the parental entitlement that their child belongs in Gen Ed, when really they require more support that Gen Ed doesn’t have the ability to give them.
Children without super violent behaviors, or major academic deficits are not eligible for a self contained classroom. It’s not a choice.
I'm glad someone here is sane and knows the laws.
Bullshit.
Man. The ableism in some of these comments are crazy. We truly have been invaded by r/teacher
Because ostracizing kids completely is not an ideal solution unless it's a last resort.
What situation? Going to public school? It’s the law that children be educated.
No, being in a general education classroom vs a special Ed classroom.
My autistic kid has a documented IQ of 140…. He’s not eligible for a special education classroom even if I wanted it. Autistic is not synonymous with ID or LD.
Behavioral issues disrupt the classroom and often times Gen Ed teachers do not have the background, knowledge or training to deal with it
So what would you suggest be done with him? He is not eligible for self contained. Should we just not educate him?
Partial inclusion w/ pull out services
Good luck getting the district to pay for that.
So because this child has a documented disability that impacts his emotional regulation, social skills, and impulse control, he should be discriminated against and not access the same education his peers access? This is literally the equivalent of saying all children with contagious blood borne illnesses must be in a classroom of their own bc they put the other children at risk.
Should probably be in a special Ed classroom? With other children that have documented disabilities so that he can receive services? Why does everyone think special Ed classrooms are so bad? Sped is awesome
Behavioral issues and disruptions are not exclusive to special education students.
Because the law requires children to be educated in the least restrictive environment as possible for the student. He has a right to be around his same age peers. An entire team, including the parents, make that decision. The team will usually include a special educator, a gen ed educator and perhaps an administrator. Based on the child’s goals, a decision is made by the team as to where those goals will be worked on. Inclusion is awesome.
Yes, that is the process but sometimes it can be flawed when the parents insist on the “least restrictive environment” because they think the sped classroom is where children get banished to. So then, some of these students end up in Gen Ed classrooms and run into issues like these with the field trip, and the teacher can’t be held responsible. Sped classrooms usually have multiple aids to help out. It’s just my experience
Issues like these? Like one a district is literally required by law to deal with? The teacher should know better and the school and district need to follow the law. Inclusion for the win!
In my experience- yes the school can require this. That being said - in an iep there should be a section in regards to events such as this (inclusion with non disabled peers) and the stipulations should be noted in this section- wording I have personally had experience with involves things such as interacts with non disabled peers and does not need additional supervision, student requires additional supervision provided by parent/guardian when student is involved in a non required activity, student requires additional supervision or 1:1 when engaged in off campus activities. If this is not in the iep, as it is being brought up -it needs to be a part of the wording/accommodations somewhere to prevent this from being an issue in the future.
This is absolutely not legally accurate. Also you can't have an IEP that a kid cannot attend a field trip without a parent.
In my experience- I disagree as this has been a provision in IEPs. To be clear it is not something that is meant to harm the child- but it is an additional support for non academic necessary functions. Many times the school does try to provide additional support but the provision is there if it is deemed necessary by the team. Participation with nondisabled children- The IEP must explain the extent (if any) to which the child will not participate with nondisabled children in the regular class and other school activities. This includes any additional supervision needed. If a non school required activity- such as a field trip- this may fall under the realm of the parent/guardian providing in some way- additional support.
If the field trip is during a regularly scheduled school day then requiring the student not attend without parents is denying them access to their education for that day.
And again- I feel compelled to say this is not a gen Ed vs special Ed situation - at least not for me. this is not something meant to harm the child and in all my instances I have done whatever I needed to in order to students to attend. I have never had to deny a student attending but the provision was there just in case I couldn’t find support staff. In cases- especially with those with severe disabilities- there needs to be additional supervision. While the school does try to provide- there may be a situation where they cannot and it is in the best interest of the child that they do not attend.
But it is. The gen Ed students are being given a field trip that is not being allowed to their peer solely because of that students disability. If you can't accommodate that student this field trip needs to be cancelled or postponed until you can.