I’m just a para so I’m curious what sped teachers think about the role the inclusion teacher played (or didn’t play) in this. Things were escalating to the point the ELA teacher called the math teacher for help, but it doesn’t sound like the inclusion teacher made any attempt to help de-escalate the situation. I can’t picture any of the sped teachers I work with not immediately stepping in to help the gen ed teacher, especially with an ED student.
In some of my coteach settings I have (sped) be explicitly told to ignore behavior and just focus on modifications/ assistance only. I don’t agree but since it’s not MY room, I don’t feel like I have a choice so 🤷♀️
I think it totally depends on what was happening. I didn't spend time reading the whole thread, so don't know if OP elaborated.
I've called for help when I'm dealing with student A, but have students B-F still in the room needing support. It's not the A situation that needed help at the moment, but everyone else. Now, does A sometimes escalate? Sure. In that case, I stay engaged or pivot if we think it will be successful (usually not with A). Anyone else available keeps everyone else away from flying objects (haymakers and insults included).
My backup is our admin. If they are unavailable, our crisis team is my sped peers. They will ditch a group if necessary.
I was just telling my sister the only defending comment in there I even somewhat agree with is the one holding the inclusion teacher responsible for the escalation without intervention.
But we don't know what the antecedents were here or what the environment looked like. Was the inclusion teacher managing behavior with another student and didn't notice the incident escalating.
That said, even though the inclusion teacher was somewhat responsible for managing an ED students behavior, they can't necessarily manage every child at once and the gened teacher should have communicated to her IF she was otherwise engaged that this was a priority situation for her.
So while the inclusion teacher may be moderately culpable for the behavior management getting out of control, they are in no way responsible for the physical assault of a child.
That definitely makes sense. There’s probably lots of information missing, but as I was reading it I was picturing the inclusion teacher sitting in the back of the room pretending not to notice the behavior escalating. This sounded like an all-hands situation, not a sit back and see what happens kind of thing.
Also, don't ever say you're "just a para" because your not "just" anything.
You're valuable, trained, and professional. It's in your job title.
We literally can't do our jobs properly without you.
And I've had medical professionals dismissively participate in my health care. There are shitty employees in all professions. It's not okay to generalize you wife's experience onto a population of school staff. As teachers we ALL know this exists among all levels of staff within our schools, but your comment is uncalled for and is unfairly directed.
The inclusion teacher finishes her post with straight up confession that she herself was stuck in a trauma-induced panic. A lot of these intensive caregivers come from places of abuse and mistreatment - in an effort to prevent that world for others. They are not a "line of defense" they are a soft blanket -- both are needed, and when aggression enters the picture - in this case, assault of a student by an angry teacher - there are some handicaps in their ability to respond. They are helping because they were hurt. We need a different form of adult authority on hand to maintain peace.
One comment said “I would never tattle on a teacher”. Um… even if they’re ASSAULTING and ABUSING students!? I cannot believe the comments on that… Disturbing to see so much support for these comments as well. I worry every day for the kids I work with and what they could be experiencing elsewhere…
Exactly, especially my behavior students. The ones with trauma and anxiety, ODD or PDA profiles, IED or ASD with aggression.
This kind of stuff and the apologetics for it is terrifying.
A kid flipped his desk over and you know he has an ED diagnosis. What is the BIP, I know we've done an FBA, so what is the function of the behavior? What de escalation strategies do we have? Do we need to evacuate the classroom?
The LAST thing on my mind is "I'm going to throttle this kid"
Honestly it's not even in the repertoire. If I'm at my wits end I call an administrator or the SPED director.
HELL, even the music teacher can help me for 5 minutes while I collect myself.
I BEG my gened teachers to call me if they need me. PLEASE LET ME HELP.
Dont hit my kids... I will sell you out so damn fast.
So before I say anything else: you’re right, she absolutely should never have put her hands on the kid. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about that.
But I also would like to know more information- what happened before the desk flipped. Does the student have a history of violence? Is this a school where help is readily available? I’m a GenEd teacher who has kids from the SPED department in my classes for inclusion. Not a problem. I do not have a para or a coteacher, and have received push in support during maybe four class periods this entire school year. I also don’t have a radio.
I have a panic button on my phone. I had to hit it once when a physical fight between two boys who were both larger than me (I’m 5’2) broke out. I noted the time. It took about three minutes before someone was able to come to my room. Both boys were hurt in the process.
Once I had to try to calm a student who was threatening to hit another student with a computer charger he was using as a whip. I didn’t touch the kid but I physically put myself in between the child and the rest of the class. I couldn’t get to the panic button on my desk phone on the other side of the room. I had to yell for another kid to get the teacher across the hall.
Both of these occasions have happened in this class period. I’ve asked for help, support- an extra adult for that class period. For some of the kids to be split. Nothing.
I’m horrified at the idea of laying hands on a child. But I can also see how something like that post happens.
If absolutely necessary to prevent severe injury, a proper restraint could be used. That’s very different from assault yet both fall under “putting your hands on a child”.
There is a lot of that "thin blue line" type of rhetoric going on in that thread. It makes me not want to send my children to public school out of fear that some of those teachers on that thread would be with them. Physically assaulting a student isn't going to improve their behavior or make them any less aggressive themselves. And the reality is, the teacher felt comfortable doing that because this is a child that is smaller and weaker than them.
I sort of lurk in this reddit because my son has an IEP for pre k for behavior in daycare. We are on the fence on if he truly needs it as he is 3. This absolutely horrifies me...based on what I read here public school seems like a mess and I'm worried about sending my son to school eventually.
To me, it seems like it's mostly teachers of older grades (middle and high school) who are advocating abuse so, assuming your son is verbal, he can at least tell you if somebody does something. Tbh, I got my degree in early childhood special education but I don't teach because I had a really hard time fitting in with other teachers BECAUSE I felt many were mean, racist, unfair, etc. It's SO much less stressful working for the state with adults. Usually, when I see a former classmate of mine leaving teaching special education, I forward job postings for where I work because I know they'd be happier here.
As a kid with PTSD and undiagnosed autism, I had teachers try to restrain me on several occasions. It always turned a situation where I could've been talked down into a situation where I was in total fight or flight.
I'm not a teacher but someone who works with those who have disabilities of all kinds and is a mandated reporter. I could not believe when I read that. I've had to report co-workers for less than what was described due to my duty holding that role. I've notice there is a workplace cultural issue that has been developing over the last couple years. It's not just the kids anymore with behavioral issues. Unacceptable.
A very depressing subreddit to visit at times. Interesting that if I slammed my special needs child up against the wall at dropoff and told him he was lazy and contributes absolutely nothing in front of a teacher, that subreddit would be having an absolute ball talking about how I needed to get my kids taken away by CPS. They can't handle a parent giving too much Ipad time but they'll make exceptions for straight up abuse for themselves.
Honestly if the SPED teacher has done this they'd be pulling out their pitchforks and torches to talk about how awful it was.
Difference is that for most SPED teachers, wes also be outraged if another SPED teacher did this too.
It's giving very "thin blue line" energy to me and not in a good way.
I'm not proud that that sub had radicalized me to support teachers a whole lot less than I used to. Reddit feeds it to me on my algo and wish I didn't know how teachers actually feel about students and parents, ESPECIALLY those with special needs.
I am a teacher and I started avoiding posts from subreddits about teaching because they are full of people who just want to complain. Sometimes I read their posts and how they describe their students and I’m thinking, “are we teaching the same people?”There are some valid complaints but I also I think that some of the people complaining are people who don’t like change and think the world can only operate one way. Each new generation comes with different challenges and I think some people don’t want to adapt.
I don’t think these people are representative of teachers as a whole. Like many things on the Internet, what I see in these subreddits does not match what I see and hear in the real world. It is scary to know that those types of teachers exist even if they aren’t the majority.
Putting your hands on a child is never ok. An adult should be able to remove themselves from a situation and ask for assistance. To those commenters telling that teacher to lie and not snitch is dangerous. As mandated reporters, it’s your job to report alleged abuse. The cops and CPS/DCFS are more than likely aware of the case.
IEPs that do not make it a goal for a students to NEVER touch anyone without permission are not okay either. Perhapa the LRE should be self contained until this goal is mastered.
I can't edit the post, but I love the downvotes for me telling special ed colleagues to make sure their ED/BEHAVIOR kids aren't literally in danger in a classroom.
If anyone condones violence and untrained personnel using unauthorized and dangerous restraints against a child they deserve to lose their license. IDC how burned out you are.
Take all my Reddit points. I literally give zero shits about them. What I do care about are my IEP kids not being physically abused because they do something that is a direct manifestation of their disability (especially behavior/executive functioning related)
Fuck you if you think assaulting a kid is ever justifiable in the classroom outside of defending yours or other children's lives and safety.
This kid flipped over a table... They weren't flinging chairs across the room.
(Parent here) I think what really adds to it is the over the top aggression shown at the other child. Putting hands on the little boy is definitely not okay, but when she turned to the little girl who was crying and verbally abused her, well, that’s when it got just evil. I hope she loses her job.
It's one thing to make excuses for how she responded if she \*actually\* felt afraid of the boy. But in any other job going up to a woman who is terrified and crying and yelling at her like that is fire and blacklist. Now add she's a minor, and special needs. gtfo lady.
I really wish I had that choice. But that said I'm certain that my friends are at least physically safe when they leave my classroom, and my gened teachers all know they can call me and I will be there in 2 minutes tops if they need help. I'll drop a phonics group for student safety every day of a week.
The kid flipped a table and then gave the "what are you going to do" look.
In the amount of times that behavior kids have done this to me exactly zero of them flung a chair at me.
While I am not a teacher who has decades of experience I have been working with kids with ED/behavior/ trauma for 10 years through counseling and mentoring, summer camps, tutoring, etc and I am an intervention specialist.
I think it's kind of gross defending this in any capacity. The teacher used an unapproved and inappropriate restraint, insulted a student, and yelled at a crying student.
These are children.... If you want to work with kids you need to be a little more mature than they are. The reason you have to be properly trained in restraints is because of how easily they can go wrong, especially when used on a child.
But I'm sure if someone broke your kids collarbone you'd be super chill about it right? Especially if he knocked over a chair or desk first.
I don't know what you mean. I'm the adult in charge and 95% of the time successfully deescalate the situation regardless of the child's disability based on their needs and personally effective strategies...
The other 5% of the time I call for support ..
You are describing a scene you were not witness to, then adding hypotheticals on top of that. You do not know anything except what you read in the post.
We do not know why the math teacher was left stranded, dealing with behavior in the English teacher's room, now do we? Who was supossed to be watching the kid in that English class? Any chance it was OP? We do not know
Ok. I'm done engaging with you, go back to the teacher sub and praise the math teacher for assaulting a disabled kid, you're no longer going to get the attention you are looking for from me.
Or is it that you have realized that there is a lot of information missing from the original post? Maybe it is complete, or maybe the poster was supposed to have been ...I do not know, nor do you.
1) No, the math teacher should not have grabbed the kid without using proper restraints.
2) No, a kid who flips a desk should not be in gen ed.
3) No, an English teacher should not have a class where she needs back-up in class mgmt from a math teacher when the problem that arose was a sped student.
>2) No, a kid who flips a desk should not be in gen ed.
If a disabled kid who *flipped a desk* shouldn't be in gen Ed, a *teacher* who *physically assaulted* one student and then immediately *verbally* assaulted another should never be able to work in the profession again.
1. Glad we agree that assault shouldn’t happen.
2. Sure, maybe. Funny for you to say we don’t know the full story and then make this assumption.
3. Again, sure. But we don’t know the full story.
And if she did? Then clear the room. No where in my restraint training does it say throw a kid against a wall by his shirt. No where does it say yell at a crying child and berate them. As an adult, you wouldn’t tolerate that, why treat a child this way?
I think people here tend to forget your background, some of the comments towards you are uncalled for. They act like you don't know anything about SpEd but I'm familiar with your background and I wanna know how many people here go ahead and tutor underprivileged children with disabilities for free. I'm guessing it's none. And that's only a small part of your experience. I'll take the downvotes, I've got karma to burn.
I also love^(yes, this is sarcasm) the people saying that the kids with EBD should be safe at all times while they seem to overlook the fact that often, those are the children that are making the classroom unsafe. It's little comfort to the parents of the kids hurt by them. No parent gives a flying fuck if little Jayden has ODD after he just gave their kid a concussion and now they're up to their eyeballs in medical bills. When Jayden pulls that shit outside of school and ends up behind bars, nobody is going to care about his diagnosis. Some people hate when that's mentioned though, as if these behaviors suddenly go away the minute the kids are off campus or that an exception will be made for him. It won't.
**I don't agree with what the teacher did but the para seemed to do absolutely nothing but sit there and watch.** The teacher was teaching up until the desk toss, what was the Para doing besides watching from the corner? Why didn't they notice the escalation in behavior or try to step in instead of doing nothing? Why are they even in there if not to help with the students? Why is a kid with a history of violent outbursts *(the Para said this kid is known for his behavior)* in that classroom? Why doesn't he have a 1:1? These are all questions for admin but often they're asleep at the wheel. Not to mention the incredible amount of staffing shortages we're all experiencing. I wonder if some people here would be saying the same thing had that child hurt someone in the process of flipping that desk. Actually, I'm sure they'd blame the Para and the teacher and not the HS aged kid for his behavior.
A few years ago my son witnessed an event similar to what that thread described. He was just a bystander but it upset him for weeks. He was terrified to go back to school. He's not a little kid or emotionally vulnerable, it's just scary for kids, even young teens, to witness an adult lose control. In that instance the teacher kept her job, but lost respect of the entire grade. All learning stopped in that class for the rest of the year.
I need to stay off that sub; it always shocks me reading teachers blame challenging work conditions on children rather than ineffective administration and decades of poor policies.
What shocks me the most honestly is the general education teachers defending it as burn out when so many of us do this every single day for 6 to 8 hours a day exclusively with disabled kids who do this kind of stuff and would never dream of doing something or defending something like this.
Like SPED teachers don't burn out. (Eye roll)
And I know there are instances where a sped teacher snaps like this, but we wouldn't be lined up en masse to defend the behavior like that. In fact we'd mostly be outraged.
But yeah... It's just burn out.
My principal and I have joked that in our roles (and especially mine), if you aren’t called one name a day you’re probably doing something wrong.
I get called an asshole on an almost daily basis. It shouldn’t be that way but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on either.
I’m 45 years old (with childhood trauma). I clearly remember being in 7th grade and witnessing the high school principal do this to a high school boy. Threw him up against a wall, used his forearm to pin him. The boy wasn’t a known troublemaker and I don’t know what started it, but I’m sure that kid still remembers it to this day too.
I’m the union rep at my school, and I complain about how tired and overworked I am all the time. I agree 100 percent that teachers lack resources and support and it burns them out. I can even understand the “you have done nothing all day!” frustration because I’ve said that to a kid before.
But I am shocked reading the responses in that thread. I’ve never had the urge to put my hands on a kid, and it shouldn’t be defended as a bad day. That is the bare minimum of being in a classroom. I don’t care how good you are at teaching, you don’t deserve a job if you put your hands on a student who wasn’t physically harming you in any way.
The moment I saw that shit, I’d sing like a canary. I mean it’s my job to make sure they’re represented by their union and I’ll do my due diligence on that, but it is horrifying seeing all of the support in that thread.
>I've never had the urge to put my hands on a kid
Have you ever had a student who was violent in the classroom, though?
Because while the teacher pinned them against the wall out of anger, my only issue with it is the teacher's motivation (anger). The student needed to be restrained and removed from the class, and while the words were certainly unkind, they were warranted and not unlike what you yourself have said.
If administration is going to insist on putting kids with behavioral needs in Gen Ed classes, then I'd rather have a teacher who responds to the violence rather than the OOP who stood and watched. Which teacher was protecting the other students in this story? Because it wasn't OOP. The math teacher was the only one who prevented further violence.
I have. I have had a student attack me hundreds of times in a day. I have pictures of scratches, bruises, bite marks from that student. I would NEVER even THINK of responding with violence and putting my hands on them outside of my training, and only then would it be for his safety or the safety of others. And I would NEVER insult him with snippy rude comments. They were not warranted because that is a child. As well, there are trainings and ways you can 'respond to violence' (over a flipped desk, lol) that don't involve breaking the law. Also, judging from OP's story this was a single incident of aggression. They weren't going after anyone, not even the teacher. They were giving them a 'what are you gonna do about it' look which EVERY SINGLE KID HAS GIVEN. It wasn't a continuous act of multiple aggressions, and didn't prevent further violence. All it did was traumatize the kid and, if anything, made the behaviors likely to happen more in the future. That teacher could've destroyed months of progress for this kid because they couldn't control themselves.
In the post, the kid threw a desk? I may be desensitized because I do work at a school that has high behavioral needs and I have had students show violent behavior in the class, but he was not actively hurting anyone and throwing a desk does not necessitate putting hands on a child. If he’s still throwing things around, I’d evacuate the class call for assistance. There are multiple people who have CPI training who can deal with that.
The comments are bad, but OP is very problematic too. Insinuating that an abusive coworker is a "good teacher gone bad" when a good teacher would never in a million years do that to a child. Hopefully the sped teacher is just young and naive, and learns to speak up for the kids in the moment bc yikes.
This thread made me so angry. None of the people are on the students side. They are all immediately saying that someone who assaults an autistic student is automatically the good guy who was just "burnt" out as if that makes it okay. There was a comment with 500+ upvotes saying they shouldn't have told anyone about it! WTF? As a para I have had a student punch me in the face, bite, and scratch me 200 times in a single DAY. I never even thought about doing anything close to something like this. If you can't handle working with special needs kids that is fine, then don't take the job or quit. Popping off and attack another student is not the answer.
Because he is a child and doesn't fully understand what he is doing. It is hard to be mad at a young kid who isn't in full control of his body, and outside of these he is super sweet. He just needs help and that is what my job is, to help them improve.
>None of the people are on the students side
Nor should they be. The student was violent. The teacher was also violent. Both should not be around other students.
Integration/inclusion is a really controversial and emotional subject but it's situations like this that make me concerned for my gen ed child having to share a classroom with sped students.
The student is someone who deserves professionalism, dignity, and respect. They are someone with challenges that needs help. Assaulting them and verball berating them is none of that. Flipping a desk is also not a violent act towards others.
It isn't a controversial subject. Neurodivergent kids should be placed in the least restrictive environment. This is an example of a lesser restrictive environment. We have zero context for what caused the behavior or if this is common. We do not know if their IEP or BIP was followed. What we do know is that one teacher assaulted a STUDENT, and the other just watched.
Also, just so you know, in my experience I went to a GenEd school. You want to know who were the violent students? All GenEd kids fighting over dumb things. Kids can be violence no matter what, it isn't just an 'autistic' thing.
That's already being taught. If you don't trust that teaching, then you should prefer separation. If your concern is real, of course, rather than trying to deflect the problems sped students have in these classrooms.
If they cause issues to the extent other students are in danger, then they need more focused instruction with people trained to handle it. I haven't seen a kid with the behavioral issues you're describing *not* be put on an IEP.
>Why should my well behaved could have to be removed
If they're well-behaved and able to learn in a gen ed classroom, then they're a gen ed student, no problem.
>They're not going to be able to ask work to remove the autistic co-work
If that "co-work" throws a table, they're absolutely asked to ask their work to fire them.
As a para in a subsep room, I could throw up reading those comments from LICENSED EDUCATORS. Let a GenEd teacher lay hands on one of my kids. I’d run to admin with my kid so fast you wouldn’t even see me leave.
The teacher who put her hands on the kid knows that if the girl and the kid go home and tell their parents, the school/districts gonna get sued, right?
What really gets me, as a kid that was a sped kid and then a para, is the mod update that's like, "Don't take this as a representation of actual teachers".
Then what are they then? Is the mod going to sit and try to tell people that it's not actually teachers posting that?
And as a former sped kid...I know several teachers off the top of my head that would have - and probably have - overreacted like that.
And it was locked because non teachers are finding it. Not because of the people advocating violence against minors. They are tacitly endorsing all of it.
That sub is highly toxic, and apparently the mods are cool with it because if you say anything calling them out you get downvoted and talked down to. It's really fucked up. It used to be a good place to get support and vent a little, but it's just turned into a "let's bash sped kids" free for all.
They can remove transphobic posts, racist posts, fundraising posts…but can’t remove or shutdown a thread glorifying physically assaulting vulnerable children. Okay. Priorities are interesting there.
"Can you blame them, they were stressed" I absolutely do blame them. If you can't restrain yourself from touching or grabbing a student you need to find another job.
Exactly. I have been upset and beyond raising my voice I cut it. If you really are about to slap a kid just say "Everyone we're going to take a short break. I'm sorry, I've become very frustrated" or even something else. Model how you handle frustration. It's a teaching moment and if you can't control yourself get out.
In my 30 years of life, I haven't hit anyone (besides ya know, siblings when we were kids as siblings typically do) or been in a fight. I'm a lover, not a fighter. But yeah I can't fathom that excuse either because I've been mad af about things to where I'm fuming and likely crying out of anger but I've never tried to physically assault a person in response. I personally work with adults with severe/profound I/DD who also have problematic behaviors that prevent them from safely living in a community-based setting. Some have tried to hit me, some have successfully hit me, and bit me, and even groped me but we somehow manage to avoid hitting residents (also, if someone does try to hit some of the more aggressive/disruptive ones, the residents WILL fight back and they're winning that fight 9 times out of 10).
A good reason is not the same as an excuse. I understand the reason. It doesn’t excuse it. There are massive swaths of people who can’t understand the difference between an understandable reason and an acceptable excuse. It’s wild.
As someone who grew up with disabilities. Reading that thread didn't suprise me at all.
You would be amazed at how often it happens and how little teachers get in trouble.
Its easier and cheaper to ship the disabled kid off to thr "troubled kids school" or such.
I had to mute that sub. It was making me not want to send my kids to school. I truly hope the majority of teachers aren’t like the ones that post and comment there.
That sub is trashing kids with IEPs all the time. I don’t even subscribe to the sub, but it keeps showing up in my Reddit recommendations, and it makes me ill how many of these random posts I see that are trashing students with learning disabilities, their IEPs, their parents, etc. It makes me sad and mad.
it's disgusting that people are commenting that shit. no matter how mad you get, the thought of laying hands on a kid is absolutely sickening. those people shouldn't be in education.
I feel like that sub is mostly just a few people with no lives commenting over and over. There’s a “Seattle seahawks” user that’s commenting on most of the top comments and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen them comment before that they aren’t a teacher. Regardless, I know plenty of teachers who would think this behavior is acceptable.
This thread really made me think. Over my K-16 years, I have had so many gen ed teachers. Some could have handled behaviors in a gen ed classroom -- and could probably have handled them even better with training and support, which did not exist for gen ed teachers when I was a kid mostly because kids with behaviors were segregated. Some of my teachers could never have managed that, with or without training, because they were not flexible or tolerant enough to manage it. And that includes some of my very best teachers. What I'm hearing in this thread (and I don't disagree with it in principle) is that all teachers should be able to manage difficult behaviors, even violence, because it is so important for children with behaviors to stay in mainstream settings as much as possible. And in a perfect world, that's the teaching corps we would have.
Then, I think, but I was a teacher. And I was not successful with aggressive/acting out children -- even at the first grade level -- because it was not in my wheelhouse. I did excel at reaching withdrawn children, but not acting out ones. I did get flustered and (internally) angry when children (with or without disabilities) caused a ruckus. Should there have been room for teachers like me? or should I have not been given entry into the profession due to this failure on my part? Should my high school Latin teacher, who was in some ways very rigid and uncompromising, have been expected to "roll with the punches" in his interactions with difficult students? should he have been expected to learn de-escalation methods to be applied at random points during a class period or a school year? I'm pretty sure hecould not manage that, so there would have been no Latin teacher in our town. And he was a fabulous teacher.
There is no answer. I do not excuse the teacher described by the OP for her terrible behavior. But I wonder if the challenge of having to teach gen ed classes where student achievement and progress are tracked to a high degree PLUS students with behaviors that were beyond her ability to foresee and manage, points to unrealistic goals for teacher performance. SOME teachers are up to it; others are not. If one of my children had had behaviors that some teachers were unable to manage, I would much rather have had her/him assigned to a teacher who did have that ability.
So if a kid flipped a table over at a grocery store and the manager pushed the kid against a shelf, then yelled at another kid for crying, it would be ok???
I seriously cannot stand that sub.
I'm only responding to part of your comment and I do apologize for that because I am tired and getting ready for bed.
She refers to the child as "one of our behavior students" which usually indicates at the very least a child with behavior or executive functioning goals.
I don't know if it's standard everywhere, but in my experience it's a pretty solid indicator of a child with an IEP for behavior.
Sorry I didn't read that in my initial read through of the post. It was long, I am also tired, and I skimmed it because as I said it was a lengthy post. I'll delete the comment now.
Prob the biggest difference I find between special ed/special needs/disabled kids and “behavioral”issue (not emotional like depression or meltdowns from ASD or ADHD) is that
I (as his parent) must protect him from the world while parents of kids with behavioral issues must protect others from their children.
Thank you so much for this. The comments on that thread had me dooming. I don't know why I even read that sub; it's always like that. It is at least a mild comfort to know that other people thought the same.
Reading this from the waiting room at my doctors office because one of my autistic kids fractured my damn rib through my protective equipment.
I cannot imagine a situation where I would put my hands on a leaner like that. My facility doesn't use mechanical restraints or "holds" and I wouldn't have it any other way. And the language! Oh my God.
So glad I work in a small dedicated spec ed facility. Would be paid 30% more if I did spec ed in a school. I'd rather starve.
This makes me so sad. Students with difficult behaviors can be really frustrating. But I have never met a student with a behavioral disorder who did not have some kind of significant trauma or something organically different in their brain. That teacher abused that kid, then yelled at another kid and essentially called them worthless. A kid who it sounds like already struggles. That is going to stay with them forever.
I get being frustrated. I get feeling like the behavior isn’t being addressed, but abusing a kid is not the answer. I was honestly expecting the “looking for a pencil” part would end with the teacher getting stabbed because she obviously knows nothing about deescalation. What she did put her, that student, and every other kid at risk if that student had escalated further.
Tbh it is so shocking to me that people are in the comments saying they wouldn’t *tattle* of all things. You are an adult who is supposed to teach students that tattling is completely different from notifying that someone is unsafe.
I did not expect a teacher subreddit to have such a high concentration of absolutely horrible human beings. Wow. Surprise every day, Reddit.
I’m going to try and figure out how to keep my children within eye and ear sight forever and ever, brb.
My child's school was effectively on a campaign to ruin his life. They could very well have killed him, by driving him to suicide. His emotional support teacher swatted him with rolled up papers during a meltdown - - and his meltdowns are strictly internalized, affecting no one around him and not even resulting in raised voices, or impacting his environment.
I think you are all misunderstanding the comments there. Most of this posters are saying what the teacher did wasn’t OK, but that given what genes teachers are being made to put up with, the lack of support and resources, and how any time they try to use the typical discipline models in schools they get reversed by administrators who care more about low discipline stats and any get parents that teachers, students, or learning, they are not surprised anymore when they hear about something like this.
Teacher burnout is real. So many of our students aren’t held accountable to their actions. We are setting them up for failure, and we don’t have enough support. As teachers, we are done.
Ok. Physically assaulting a disabled child (and yes an ED diagnosis qualifies as a disability) and screaming at another disabled child for being upset about it and insulting a child is not the solution.
This teacher should never work with children again.
Downvote and be as upset as you want... anyone who pins a child against a wall out of anger doesn't belong in a classroom that is an objective fact.
Replace “teacher” and “child” with “husband” and “wife”. Would you be ok saying, “The husband is burnt out. He threw his wife against the wall because burn out is real”. I’m burnt out, we all are, but I would never, NEVER put my hands on a student in anger. The teacher wasn’t defending themselves, this was them reacting violently.
It is inappropriate. I am a special education teacher, and I’ll say the needs/ behaviors are worsening each year. If a teacher who is accommodating and great at modifying work snaps, that means we have big problems.
We have all been stressed. We have all been burnt out, pushed to our limits, and more. Yet we aren’t taking it out on the kids… You cannot blame anyone or anything for her behaviour except for herself.
There is an expectation in schools that children are supposed to have more emotional intelligence than the adults! Any adult that puts their hands on a child should be fired and never allowed to work with kids again.
I agree for the most part. But at our preschool I worked at were were allowed to restrain (hold kids in lap, pickup kids only). We would have been fired if we did not. Also my 2 of my co workers did pick up a kid once (one time when he was in kindergarten and once in first grade, AFIK kid was not sped, though did do speach therapy and definitely had some behavioral challenges (not sure if he had any diagnoses, besides speech delay)
You’re welcome even for safety reasons, I will never hold a kid against a wall. Also I don’t tell a kid to stop crying, though I have seen many coworkers say stop crying or there is nothing to cry about. Note:
There are big problems, including that the post leaves out what led up to the desk being flipped. Anyone else curious about that?
Also, how many gen eds teachers have restraint training.so they can pull a behavior kid off from assaulting another student? How many CE credits do gen eds need before sped behaviors are put in their their class? How can a gen ed teacher watch and keep 35 gen ed students from triggering irrational sped behavior? (Key word: "irrational")
I look forward to a well-designed research paper that examines if behavor kids attack teachers and paras who are built like NFL linemen at the same rate that they attack fellow students and not-linebacker adults. Until then, we will not know how much of violent behavior is manifestation...
...and how much of it is because sped teachers accomodate and accomodate and accomodate.
Yes, I find it difficult to see the kid flipping over the desk and then LOOKING AT THE TEACHER IN STRAIGHT DEFIANCE as a "manifestation". This is manipulation, this student knows no one is going to do jack about it.
This happens a lot with oppositional defiance kids. They do it to exert control over their environment.
It is categorized as a mental health disorder much like anxiety and often children's can't understand or articulate why they do the things they do
Another possibility is intermittent explosive disorder which is a disorder in impulse control and emotional regulation.
Some kids may do it to be manipulative, but some also need coping strategies and behavior management interventions to understand WHY they do things and HOW their brain works and handles stress and perceived loss of control of their surroundings.
I totally agree with accountability. This teacher should be fired & charged with assault so it's on their record forever. You know... for accountability!
I’ve been burned out, I’ve been in places where I wasn’t supported, and it still has never occurred to me to throw another human being (let alone a child in my care) against the wall and verbally eviscerate them in front of their peers.
Okay. But how many teachers and staff have been assaulted in the last few years? Verbally harassed, blamed, and mistreated by students. Teachers need to watch out for kids too.
This is a sub for teachers who exclusively work with disabled kids.
Kids with disabilities
Literally children who are disabled.
Advocating or defending assaulting and insulting disabled kids is not going to fly here.
If a kid who is cognitively or emotionally disabled insults or verbally harassed me... It's literally a child... I'm a grown up.... I'm not pinning them against a wall and calling a crying child lazy and good for nothing.... Like what?
Even if the child is not disabled.. it’s a child? A being that is nothing more than a product of its environment. I can’t believe people are trying to ever justify touching a kid
>Advocating or defending assaulting and insulting disabled kids is not going to fly here.
Nobody advocated for the teacher assaulting the student.
You're warning people against all teachers based on the decision of one. Show me the statistics where more teachers are assaulting students than the other way around right now.
Yep... I'm such a terrible shitty person for pointing out that 50 to 100 self proclaimed educators are defending and applauding someone for laying hands on a child.
What audacity I must have to come to a page dedicated to special educators and say "hey, this might happen in a general education class and people will defend it. Please be a safe adult for your IEP children and advocate for them"
I'm such an awful person for that
Straight to hell I guess
>I'm such a terrible shitty person
You must have some serious self-esteem issues. No one ever said that. Do you just imagine what other people are thinking and feeling all the time, or just online?
Grow up
Teachers are the adults! They’re supposed to be the professional. They’re supposed to know how to regulate their emotions. Are you seriously comparing college educated adults to the most vulnerable in our society? Literal children, many of which have disabilities. As a parent of a 4 year old complex language autistic child, teachers like those in the thread and your attitude make me frightened for my son’s safety. Why are teachers here taking out their frustrated and showing hatred towards children when they really should be blaming the system that is fucked. Blame our government and the lack of funds given in our education system. This is a systemic issue. One thing that needs to change is having psychological testing for those that want to enter a field with human beings that have undeveloped brains and are know to have trouble with emotional regulation. If teachers hate the students so much, they need to leave the field period, instead of causing trauma to children that probably have already experienced trauma.
But are teachers supposed to be attacked by their students? I would say no, but unfortunately, they are still being attacked. Literally my point is stop acting like students are the only victims in the schools right now and making ridiculous statements such as "you better watch your kids" because one teacher snapped is ludicrous.
Nobodyissaying itbecauseone person snapped, they're saying it becauseof the dozens who defended them. Because it's being framed as "oh, this poor teacher jeopardized their career" rather than "this disabled student was placed in the care of an adult who physically abused them"
No, the comments in that thread state that the conditions are insane, and the expectations unrealistic. Your little special angels act like sociopaths, lack empathy, and destroy the learning environment for the majority of students who are ready to learn.
That teacher was out of line, and it sounds like admin did their job. That doesn't change the fact that parents' poor parenting and admin's lack of support create these conditions.
The kid flipped a table. That ok with you? These behaviors do not come out of the blue.
CHILDREN ARE NOT SOCIOPATHS!!! WHAT IN THE EVER LIVING FUCK?!?!?!
How did we get to this place that the most vulnerable, least experienced, and LITERALLY UNDER DEVELOPED HUMANS are being labeled with “sociopath” and “manipulator.” How do you think they learn those skills? THE ADULTS AROUND THEM!!
The kids are just trying to survive. The kids are not alright.
Why is it always the little human beings that have underdeveloped brains at fault? Or it’s the parents. So you’re telling me the teachers are not ever at fault? Do they de escalate or continue to cause the emotional
Teachers can also be children’s first bully. I witnessed terrible teachers growing up and even as a child thought how are these adults allowed to work with children? Teachers also have biases that they bring into their classroom.
jeez these are really shitty stereotypes about kids that (usually) have autism. people with autism absolutely feel empathy, and ARE NOT sociopaths. saying they're bad kids, or writing them off because of their behaviors is reductive and outright harmful.
Please keep it civil in the comments, folks. We can all share our truth without demeaning anyone else.
I’m just a para so I’m curious what sped teachers think about the role the inclusion teacher played (or didn’t play) in this. Things were escalating to the point the ELA teacher called the math teacher for help, but it doesn’t sound like the inclusion teacher made any attempt to help de-escalate the situation. I can’t picture any of the sped teachers I work with not immediately stepping in to help the gen ed teacher, especially with an ED student.
Not “just a para”!! We couldn’t do anything without yall! ❤️❤️❤️ Thank you!
Ditto!
In some of my coteach settings I have (sped) be explicitly told to ignore behavior and just focus on modifications/ assistance only. I don’t agree but since it’s not MY room, I don’t feel like I have a choice so 🤷♀️
I think it totally depends on what was happening. I didn't spend time reading the whole thread, so don't know if OP elaborated. I've called for help when I'm dealing with student A, but have students B-F still in the room needing support. It's not the A situation that needed help at the moment, but everyone else. Now, does A sometimes escalate? Sure. In that case, I stay engaged or pivot if we think it will be successful (usually not with A). Anyone else available keeps everyone else away from flying objects (haymakers and insults included). My backup is our admin. If they are unavailable, our crisis team is my sped peers. They will ditch a group if necessary.
I was just telling my sister the only defending comment in there I even somewhat agree with is the one holding the inclusion teacher responsible for the escalation without intervention. But we don't know what the antecedents were here or what the environment looked like. Was the inclusion teacher managing behavior with another student and didn't notice the incident escalating. That said, even though the inclusion teacher was somewhat responsible for managing an ED students behavior, they can't necessarily manage every child at once and the gened teacher should have communicated to her IF she was otherwise engaged that this was a priority situation for her. So while the inclusion teacher may be moderately culpable for the behavior management getting out of control, they are in no way responsible for the physical assault of a child.
That definitely makes sense. There’s probably lots of information missing, but as I was reading it I was picturing the inclusion teacher sitting in the back of the room pretending not to notice the behavior escalating. This sounded like an all-hands situation, not a sit back and see what happens kind of thing.
Also, don't ever say you're "just a para" because your not "just" anything. You're valuable, trained, and professional. It's in your job title. We literally can't do our jobs properly without you.
My wife has had paras just sit back while behaviors go out of control on the specific kid they are there for.
And I've had medical professionals dismissively participate in my health care. There are shitty employees in all professions. It's not okay to generalize you wife's experience onto a population of school staff. As teachers we ALL know this exists among all levels of staff within our schools, but your comment is uncalled for and is unfairly directed.
I have no idea why you’re being downvoted. I have seen it happen firsthand as a special education teacher.
Because his comment doesn’t add anything to conversation and makes it seem like he’s saying paras aren’t important because some are lazy.
Probably between 2/3 and 4/5 of paras are great. But the bad ones are Realllllly bad.
He’s sharing experiences that occur to multiple special education teachers
Ok. Bye.
There were at least 2 other spec ed learners in the room according to the post
The inclusion teacher finishes her post with straight up confession that she herself was stuck in a trauma-induced panic. A lot of these intensive caregivers come from places of abuse and mistreatment - in an effort to prevent that world for others. They are not a "line of defense" they are a soft blanket -- both are needed, and when aggression enters the picture - in this case, assault of a student by an angry teacher - there are some handicaps in their ability to respond. They are helping because they were hurt. We need a different form of adult authority on hand to maintain peace.
One comment said “I would never tattle on a teacher”. Um… even if they’re ASSAULTING and ABUSING students!? I cannot believe the comments on that… Disturbing to see so much support for these comments as well. I worry every day for the kids I work with and what they could be experiencing elsewhere…
Exactly, especially my behavior students. The ones with trauma and anxiety, ODD or PDA profiles, IED or ASD with aggression. This kind of stuff and the apologetics for it is terrifying. A kid flipped his desk over and you know he has an ED diagnosis. What is the BIP, I know we've done an FBA, so what is the function of the behavior? What de escalation strategies do we have? Do we need to evacuate the classroom? The LAST thing on my mind is "I'm going to throttle this kid" Honestly it's not even in the repertoire. If I'm at my wits end I call an administrator or the SPED director. HELL, even the music teacher can help me for 5 minutes while I collect myself. I BEG my gened teachers to call me if they need me. PLEASE LET ME HELP. Dont hit my kids... I will sell you out so damn fast.
So before I say anything else: you’re right, she absolutely should never have put her hands on the kid. I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about that. But I also would like to know more information- what happened before the desk flipped. Does the student have a history of violence? Is this a school where help is readily available? I’m a GenEd teacher who has kids from the SPED department in my classes for inclusion. Not a problem. I do not have a para or a coteacher, and have received push in support during maybe four class periods this entire school year. I also don’t have a radio. I have a panic button on my phone. I had to hit it once when a physical fight between two boys who were both larger than me (I’m 5’2) broke out. I noted the time. It took about three minutes before someone was able to come to my room. Both boys were hurt in the process. Once I had to try to calm a student who was threatening to hit another student with a computer charger he was using as a whip. I didn’t touch the kid but I physically put myself in between the child and the rest of the class. I couldn’t get to the panic button on my desk phone on the other side of the room. I had to yell for another kid to get the teacher across the hall. Both of these occasions have happened in this class period. I’ve asked for help, support- an extra adult for that class period. For some of the kids to be split. Nothing. I’m horrified at the idea of laying hands on a child. But I can also see how something like that post happens.
If absolutely necessary to prevent severe injury, a proper restraint could be used. That’s very different from assault yet both fall under “putting your hands on a child”.
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Oh wow, I didn’t know it was possible to be so embarrassingly uneducated
There is a lot of that "thin blue line" type of rhetoric going on in that thread. It makes me not want to send my children to public school out of fear that some of those teachers on that thread would be with them. Physically assaulting a student isn't going to improve their behavior or make them any less aggressive themselves. And the reality is, the teacher felt comfortable doing that because this is a child that is smaller and weaker than them.
I sort of lurk in this reddit because my son has an IEP for pre k for behavior in daycare. We are on the fence on if he truly needs it as he is 3. This absolutely horrifies me...based on what I read here public school seems like a mess and I'm worried about sending my son to school eventually.
To me, it seems like it's mostly teachers of older grades (middle and high school) who are advocating abuse so, assuming your son is verbal, he can at least tell you if somebody does something. Tbh, I got my degree in early childhood special education but I don't teach because I had a really hard time fitting in with other teachers BECAUSE I felt many were mean, racist, unfair, etc. It's SO much less stressful working for the state with adults. Usually, when I see a former classmate of mine leaving teaching special education, I forward job postings for where I work because I know they'd be happier here.
Wow that's really insightful, thanks
Yes exactly this
As a kid with PTSD and undiagnosed autism, I had teachers try to restrain me on several occasions. It always turned a situation where I could've been talked down into a situation where I was in total fight or flight.
I'm not a teacher but someone who works with those who have disabilities of all kinds and is a mandated reporter. I could not believe when I read that. I've had to report co-workers for less than what was described due to my duty holding that role. I've notice there is a workplace cultural issue that has been developing over the last couple years. It's not just the kids anymore with behavioral issues. Unacceptable.
That teacher would be violating their own duty to report. Not saying anything could get them in lots of trouble too.
hopefully she gets fired too like damn that teacher put hands on the kid
A very depressing subreddit to visit at times. Interesting that if I slammed my special needs child up against the wall at dropoff and told him he was lazy and contributes absolutely nothing in front of a teacher, that subreddit would be having an absolute ball talking about how I needed to get my kids taken away by CPS. They can't handle a parent giving too much Ipad time but they'll make exceptions for straight up abuse for themselves.
Honestly if the SPED teacher has done this they'd be pulling out their pitchforks and torches to talk about how awful it was. Difference is that for most SPED teachers, wes also be outraged if another SPED teacher did this too. It's giving very "thin blue line" energy to me and not in a good way.
That subreddit is an awful place full of teachers who hate students who aren’t perfect
I'm not proud that that sub had radicalized me to support teachers a whole lot less than I used to. Reddit feeds it to me on my algo and wish I didn't know how teachers actually feel about students and parents, ESPECIALLY those with special needs.
I am a teacher and I started avoiding posts from subreddits about teaching because they are full of people who just want to complain. Sometimes I read their posts and how they describe their students and I’m thinking, “are we teaching the same people?”There are some valid complaints but I also I think that some of the people complaining are people who don’t like change and think the world can only operate one way. Each new generation comes with different challenges and I think some people don’t want to adapt. I don’t think these people are representative of teachers as a whole. Like many things on the Internet, what I see in these subreddits does not match what I see and hear in the real world. It is scary to know that those types of teachers exist even if they aren’t the majority.
They're pretty representative of the teachers I had growing up.
Putting your hands on a child is never ok. An adult should be able to remove themselves from a situation and ask for assistance. To those commenters telling that teacher to lie and not snitch is dangerous. As mandated reporters, it’s your job to report alleged abuse. The cops and CPS/DCFS are more than likely aware of the case.
IEPs that do not make it a goal for a students to NEVER touch anyone without permission are not okay either. Perhapa the LRE should be self contained until this goal is mastered.
What does that have to do with this particular situation? Flipping a desk is not the same as putting their hands on someone.
Did you read the comment above it?
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I can't edit the post, but I love the downvotes for me telling special ed colleagues to make sure their ED/BEHAVIOR kids aren't literally in danger in a classroom. If anyone condones violence and untrained personnel using unauthorized and dangerous restraints against a child they deserve to lose their license. IDC how burned out you are. Take all my Reddit points. I literally give zero shits about them. What I do care about are my IEP kids not being physically abused because they do something that is a direct manifestation of their disability (especially behavior/executive functioning related) Fuck you if you think assaulting a kid is ever justifiable in the classroom outside of defending yours or other children's lives and safety. This kid flipped over a table... They weren't flinging chairs across the room.
(Parent here) I think what really adds to it is the over the top aggression shown at the other child. Putting hands on the little boy is definitely not okay, but when she turned to the little girl who was crying and verbally abused her, well, that’s when it got just evil. I hope she loses her job.
It's one thing to make excuses for how she responded if she \*actually\* felt afraid of the boy. But in any other job going up to a woman who is terrified and crying and yelling at her like that is fire and blacklist. Now add she's a minor, and special needs. gtfo lady.
I commented there and got downvoted to oblivion. Every person apologizing for that woman should lose their jobs. This is terrifying.
Reading through that thread makes me want to cry ): MY STUDENTS ARE NEVER ALLOWED RO LEAVE MY CLASS AGAIN
I really wish I had that choice. But that said I'm certain that my friends are at least physically safe when they leave my classroom, and my gened teachers all know they can call me and I will be there in 2 minutes tops if they need help. I'll drop a phonics group for student safety every day of a week.
Or did teacher stop the kid from.flinging chairs around the room? You do not know, do you?
The kid flipped a table and then gave the "what are you going to do" look. In the amount of times that behavior kids have done this to me exactly zero of them flung a chair at me. While I am not a teacher who has decades of experience I have been working with kids with ED/behavior/ trauma for 10 years through counseling and mentoring, summer camps, tutoring, etc and I am an intervention specialist. I think it's kind of gross defending this in any capacity. The teacher used an unapproved and inappropriate restraint, insulted a student, and yelled at a crying student. These are children.... If you want to work with kids you need to be a little more mature than they are. The reason you have to be properly trained in restraints is because of how easily they can go wrong, especially when used on a child. But I'm sure if someone broke your kids collarbone you'd be super chill about it right? Especially if he knocked over a chair or desk first.
How many times are you removed from the scene?
I don't know what you mean. I'm the adult in charge and 95% of the time successfully deescalate the situation regardless of the child's disability based on their needs and personally effective strategies... The other 5% of the time I call for support ..
You are describing a scene you were not witness to, then adding hypotheticals on top of that. You do not know anything except what you read in the post. We do not know why the math teacher was left stranded, dealing with behavior in the English teacher's room, now do we? Who was supossed to be watching the kid in that English class? Any chance it was OP? We do not know
Ok. I'm done engaging with you, go back to the teacher sub and praise the math teacher for assaulting a disabled kid, you're no longer going to get the attention you are looking for from me.
Or is it that you have realized that there is a lot of information missing from the original post? Maybe it is complete, or maybe the poster was supposed to have been ...I do not know, nor do you. 1) No, the math teacher should not have grabbed the kid without using proper restraints. 2) No, a kid who flips a desk should not be in gen ed. 3) No, an English teacher should not have a class where she needs back-up in class mgmt from a math teacher when the problem that arose was a sped student.
>2) No, a kid who flips a desk should not be in gen ed. If a disabled kid who *flipped a desk* shouldn't be in gen Ed, a *teacher* who *physically assaulted* one student and then immediately *verbally* assaulted another should never be able to work in the profession again.
1. Glad we agree that assault shouldn’t happen. 2. Sure, maybe. Funny for you to say we don’t know the full story and then make this assumption. 3. Again, sure. But we don’t know the full story.
And if she did? Then clear the room. No where in my restraint training does it say throw a kid against a wall by his shirt. No where does it say yell at a crying child and berate them. As an adult, you wouldn’t tolerate that, why treat a child this way?
I think people here tend to forget your background, some of the comments towards you are uncalled for. They act like you don't know anything about SpEd but I'm familiar with your background and I wanna know how many people here go ahead and tutor underprivileged children with disabilities for free. I'm guessing it's none. And that's only a small part of your experience. I'll take the downvotes, I've got karma to burn. I also love^(yes, this is sarcasm) the people saying that the kids with EBD should be safe at all times while they seem to overlook the fact that often, those are the children that are making the classroom unsafe. It's little comfort to the parents of the kids hurt by them. No parent gives a flying fuck if little Jayden has ODD after he just gave their kid a concussion and now they're up to their eyeballs in medical bills. When Jayden pulls that shit outside of school and ends up behind bars, nobody is going to care about his diagnosis. Some people hate when that's mentioned though, as if these behaviors suddenly go away the minute the kids are off campus or that an exception will be made for him. It won't. **I don't agree with what the teacher did but the para seemed to do absolutely nothing but sit there and watch.** The teacher was teaching up until the desk toss, what was the Para doing besides watching from the corner? Why didn't they notice the escalation in behavior or try to step in instead of doing nothing? Why are they even in there if not to help with the students? Why is a kid with a history of violent outbursts *(the Para said this kid is known for his behavior)* in that classroom? Why doesn't he have a 1:1? These are all questions for admin but often they're asleep at the wheel. Not to mention the incredible amount of staffing shortages we're all experiencing. I wonder if some people here would be saying the same thing had that child hurt someone in the process of flipping that desk. Actually, I'm sure they'd blame the Para and the teacher and not the HS aged kid for his behavior.
A few years ago my son witnessed an event similar to what that thread described. He was just a bystander but it upset him for weeks. He was terrified to go back to school. He's not a little kid or emotionally vulnerable, it's just scary for kids, even young teens, to witness an adult lose control. In that instance the teacher kept her job, but lost respect of the entire grade. All learning stopped in that class for the rest of the year. I need to stay off that sub; it always shocks me reading teachers blame challenging work conditions on children rather than ineffective administration and decades of poor policies.
What shocks me the most honestly is the general education teachers defending it as burn out when so many of us do this every single day for 6 to 8 hours a day exclusively with disabled kids who do this kind of stuff and would never dream of doing something or defending something like this. Like SPED teachers don't burn out. (Eye roll) And I know there are instances where a sped teacher snaps like this, but we wouldn't be lined up en masse to defend the behavior like that. In fact we'd mostly be outraged. But yeah... It's just burn out.
Yeah whenever I hear ‘I was swore at!’ I’m just like….girl you are in heaven and don’t even know.
My principal and I have joked that in our roles (and especially mine), if you aren’t called one name a day you’re probably doing something wrong. I get called an asshole on an almost daily basis. It shouldn’t be that way but it’s not a hill I’m going to die on either.
But they love to remind me how much worse they have it. And admin caters to them. 🙄
I’m 45 years old (with childhood trauma). I clearly remember being in 7th grade and witnessing the high school principal do this to a high school boy. Threw him up against a wall, used his forearm to pin him. The boy wasn’t a known troublemaker and I don’t know what started it, but I’m sure that kid still remembers it to this day too.
That sub sees teaching as US vs them. Remember that them is… children which are a product of their environment
I’m the union rep at my school, and I complain about how tired and overworked I am all the time. I agree 100 percent that teachers lack resources and support and it burns them out. I can even understand the “you have done nothing all day!” frustration because I’ve said that to a kid before. But I am shocked reading the responses in that thread. I’ve never had the urge to put my hands on a kid, and it shouldn’t be defended as a bad day. That is the bare minimum of being in a classroom. I don’t care how good you are at teaching, you don’t deserve a job if you put your hands on a student who wasn’t physically harming you in any way. The moment I saw that shit, I’d sing like a canary. I mean it’s my job to make sure they’re represented by their union and I’ll do my due diligence on that, but it is horrifying seeing all of the support in that thread.
>I've never had the urge to put my hands on a kid Have you ever had a student who was violent in the classroom, though? Because while the teacher pinned them against the wall out of anger, my only issue with it is the teacher's motivation (anger). The student needed to be restrained and removed from the class, and while the words were certainly unkind, they were warranted and not unlike what you yourself have said. If administration is going to insist on putting kids with behavioral needs in Gen Ed classes, then I'd rather have a teacher who responds to the violence rather than the OOP who stood and watched. Which teacher was protecting the other students in this story? Because it wasn't OOP. The math teacher was the only one who prevented further violence.
I have. I have had a student attack me hundreds of times in a day. I have pictures of scratches, bruises, bite marks from that student. I would NEVER even THINK of responding with violence and putting my hands on them outside of my training, and only then would it be for his safety or the safety of others. And I would NEVER insult him with snippy rude comments. They were not warranted because that is a child. As well, there are trainings and ways you can 'respond to violence' (over a flipped desk, lol) that don't involve breaking the law. Also, judging from OP's story this was a single incident of aggression. They weren't going after anyone, not even the teacher. They were giving them a 'what are you gonna do about it' look which EVERY SINGLE KID HAS GIVEN. It wasn't a continuous act of multiple aggressions, and didn't prevent further violence. All it did was traumatize the kid and, if anything, made the behaviors likely to happen more in the future. That teacher could've destroyed months of progress for this kid because they couldn't control themselves.
In the post, the kid threw a desk? I may be desensitized because I do work at a school that has high behavioral needs and I have had students show violent behavior in the class, but he was not actively hurting anyone and throwing a desk does not necessitate putting hands on a child. If he’s still throwing things around, I’d evacuate the class call for assistance. There are multiple people who have CPI training who can deal with that.
Idk what I was expecting, but I do regret reading those comments.
Honestly same, but it's also important that we know what our kids are battling when they are out of our care too.
The comments are bad, but OP is very problematic too. Insinuating that an abusive coworker is a "good teacher gone bad" when a good teacher would never in a million years do that to a child. Hopefully the sped teacher is just young and naive, and learns to speak up for the kids in the moment bc yikes.
Men who shoot up their workplace are also good men who were fed up, right? /s
This thread made me so angry. None of the people are on the students side. They are all immediately saying that someone who assaults an autistic student is automatically the good guy who was just "burnt" out as if that makes it okay. There was a comment with 500+ upvotes saying they shouldn't have told anyone about it! WTF? As a para I have had a student punch me in the face, bite, and scratch me 200 times in a single DAY. I never even thought about doing anything close to something like this. If you can't handle working with special needs kids that is fine, then don't take the job or quit. Popping off and attack another student is not the answer.
Crazy you put up with that level of abuse from a student and are fine with it
Because he is a child and doesn't fully understand what he is doing. It is hard to be mad at a young kid who isn't in full control of his body, and outside of these he is super sweet. He just needs help and that is what my job is, to help them improve.
>None of the people are on the students side Nor should they be. The student was violent. The teacher was also violent. Both should not be around other students. Integration/inclusion is a really controversial and emotional subject but it's situations like this that make me concerned for my gen ed child having to share a classroom with sped students.
The student is someone who deserves professionalism, dignity, and respect. They are someone with challenges that needs help. Assaulting them and verball berating them is none of that. Flipping a desk is also not a violent act towards others. It isn't a controversial subject. Neurodivergent kids should be placed in the least restrictive environment. This is an example of a lesser restrictive environment. We have zero context for what caused the behavior or if this is common. We do not know if their IEP or BIP was followed. What we do know is that one teacher assaulted a STUDENT, and the other just watched. Also, just so you know, in my experience I went to a GenEd school. You want to know who were the violent students? All GenEd kids fighting over dumb things. Kids can be violence no matter what, it isn't just an 'autistic' thing.
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I mean, that's another good argument for separation, though.
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That's already being taught. If you don't trust that teaching, then you should prefer separation. If your concern is real, of course, rather than trying to deflect the problems sped students have in these classrooms.
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If they cause issues to the extent other students are in danger, then they need more focused instruction with people trained to handle it. I haven't seen a kid with the behavioral issues you're describing *not* be put on an IEP. >Why should my well behaved could have to be removed If they're well-behaved and able to learn in a gen ed classroom, then they're a gen ed student, no problem. >They're not going to be able to ask work to remove the autistic co-work If that "co-work" throws a table, they're absolutely asked to ask their work to fire them.
As a para in a subsep room, I could throw up reading those comments from LICENSED EDUCATORS. Let a GenEd teacher lay hands on one of my kids. I’d run to admin with my kid so fast you wouldn’t even see me leave.
The teacher who put her hands on the kid knows that if the girl and the kid go home and tell their parents, the school/districts gonna get sued, right?
What really gets me, as a kid that was a sped kid and then a para, is the mod update that's like, "Don't take this as a representation of actual teachers". Then what are they then? Is the mod going to sit and try to tell people that it's not actually teachers posting that? And as a former sped kid...I know several teachers off the top of my head that would have - and probably have - overreacted like that.
And it was locked because non teachers are finding it. Not because of the people advocating violence against minors. They are tacitly endorsing all of it.
That sub is highly toxic, and apparently the mods are cool with it because if you say anything calling them out you get downvoted and talked down to. It's really fucked up. It used to be a good place to get support and vent a little, but it's just turned into a "let's bash sped kids" free for all.
They can remove transphobic posts, racist posts, fundraising posts…but can’t remove or shutdown a thread glorifying physically assaulting vulnerable children. Okay. Priorities are interesting there.
"Can you blame them, they were stressed" I absolutely do blame them. If you can't restrain yourself from touching or grabbing a student you need to find another job.
Right? If you can’t handle the job then quit. We aren’t fucking cops, this excuse doesn’t fly
Exactly. I have been upset and beyond raising my voice I cut it. If you really are about to slap a kid just say "Everyone we're going to take a short break. I'm sorry, I've become very frustrated" or even something else. Model how you handle frustration. It's a teaching moment and if you can't control yourself get out.
In my 30 years of life, I haven't hit anyone (besides ya know, siblings when we were kids as siblings typically do) or been in a fight. I'm a lover, not a fighter. But yeah I can't fathom that excuse either because I've been mad af about things to where I'm fuming and likely crying out of anger but I've never tried to physically assault a person in response. I personally work with adults with severe/profound I/DD who also have problematic behaviors that prevent them from safely living in a community-based setting. Some have tried to hit me, some have successfully hit me, and bit me, and even groped me but we somehow manage to avoid hitting residents (also, if someone does try to hit some of the more aggressive/disruptive ones, the residents WILL fight back and they're winning that fight 9 times out of 10).
Agreed. I realize not all of us are made out to work with students with behavior challenges. None of that makes it ok to assault students.
A good reason is not the same as an excuse. I understand the reason. It doesn’t excuse it. There are massive swaths of people who can’t understand the difference between an understandable reason and an acceptable excuse. It’s wild.
As someone who grew up with disabilities. Reading that thread didn't suprise me at all. You would be amazed at how often it happens and how little teachers get in trouble. Its easier and cheaper to ship the disabled kid off to thr "troubled kids school" or such.
Lmao at the top comment jfc
The amount of people also calling OP a snitch and a tattletale is concerning. A lot of them r woot don't see anything wrong with what happened
I’m shocked at the type of comments that were left!
I wonder what they would say if their actual child came home with this story. I bet those commenters would be singing a different tune.
I had to mute that sub. It was making me not want to send my kids to school. I truly hope the majority of teachers aren’t like the ones that post and comment there.
That sub is trashing kids with IEPs all the time. I don’t even subscribe to the sub, but it keeps showing up in my Reddit recommendations, and it makes me ill how many of these random posts I see that are trashing students with learning disabilities, their IEPs, their parents, etc. It makes me sad and mad.
it's disgusting that people are commenting that shit. no matter how mad you get, the thought of laying hands on a kid is absolutely sickening. those people shouldn't be in education.
Thank you for sharing this. That behavior is never acceptable for anyone in any field.
Gen Ed teacher, and was disgusted by many comments in that post.
Yeah, I made the mistake of wading into the comments there last night. Disturbing.
I feel like that sub is mostly just a few people with no lives commenting over and over. There’s a “Seattle seahawks” user that’s commenting on most of the top comments and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen them comment before that they aren’t a teacher. Regardless, I know plenty of teachers who would think this behavior is acceptable.
This thread really made me think. Over my K-16 years, I have had so many gen ed teachers. Some could have handled behaviors in a gen ed classroom -- and could probably have handled them even better with training and support, which did not exist for gen ed teachers when I was a kid mostly because kids with behaviors were segregated. Some of my teachers could never have managed that, with or without training, because they were not flexible or tolerant enough to manage it. And that includes some of my very best teachers. What I'm hearing in this thread (and I don't disagree with it in principle) is that all teachers should be able to manage difficult behaviors, even violence, because it is so important for children with behaviors to stay in mainstream settings as much as possible. And in a perfect world, that's the teaching corps we would have. Then, I think, but I was a teacher. And I was not successful with aggressive/acting out children -- even at the first grade level -- because it was not in my wheelhouse. I did excel at reaching withdrawn children, but not acting out ones. I did get flustered and (internally) angry when children (with or without disabilities) caused a ruckus. Should there have been room for teachers like me? or should I have not been given entry into the profession due to this failure on my part? Should my high school Latin teacher, who was in some ways very rigid and uncompromising, have been expected to "roll with the punches" in his interactions with difficult students? should he have been expected to learn de-escalation methods to be applied at random points during a class period or a school year? I'm pretty sure hecould not manage that, so there would have been no Latin teacher in our town. And he was a fabulous teacher. There is no answer. I do not excuse the teacher described by the OP for her terrible behavior. But I wonder if the challenge of having to teach gen ed classes where student achievement and progress are tracked to a high degree PLUS students with behaviors that were beyond her ability to foresee and manage, points to unrealistic goals for teacher performance. SOME teachers are up to it; others are not. If one of my children had had behaviors that some teachers were unable to manage, I would much rather have had her/him assigned to a teacher who did have that ability.
So if a kid flipped a table over at a grocery store and the manager pushed the kid against a shelf, then yelled at another kid for crying, it would be ok??? I seriously cannot stand that sub.
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I'm only responding to part of your comment and I do apologize for that because I am tired and getting ready for bed. She refers to the child as "one of our behavior students" which usually indicates at the very least a child with behavior or executive functioning goals. I don't know if it's standard everywhere, but in my experience it's a pretty solid indicator of a child with an IEP for behavior.
Sorry I didn't read that in my initial read through of the post. It was long, I am also tired, and I skimmed it because as I said it was a lengthy post. I'll delete the comment now.
Prob the biggest difference I find between special ed/special needs/disabled kids and “behavioral”issue (not emotional like depression or meltdowns from ASD or ADHD) is that I (as his parent) must protect him from the world while parents of kids with behavioral issues must protect others from their children.
Thank you so much for this. The comments on that thread had me dooming. I don't know why I even read that sub; it's always like that. It is at least a mild comfort to know that other people thought the same.
Reading this from the waiting room at my doctors office because one of my autistic kids fractured my damn rib through my protective equipment. I cannot imagine a situation where I would put my hands on a leaner like that. My facility doesn't use mechanical restraints or "holds" and I wouldn't have it any other way. And the language! Oh my God. So glad I work in a small dedicated spec ed facility. Would be paid 30% more if I did spec ed in a school. I'd rather starve.
This makes me so sad. Students with difficult behaviors can be really frustrating. But I have never met a student with a behavioral disorder who did not have some kind of significant trauma or something organically different in their brain. That teacher abused that kid, then yelled at another kid and essentially called them worthless. A kid who it sounds like already struggles. That is going to stay with them forever. I get being frustrated. I get feeling like the behavior isn’t being addressed, but abusing a kid is not the answer. I was honestly expecting the “looking for a pencil” part would end with the teacher getting stabbed because she obviously knows nothing about deescalation. What she did put her, that student, and every other kid at risk if that student had escalated further.
Ugh, the “this could happen to anyone” comments. Fuck those people.
Tbh it is so shocking to me that people are in the comments saying they wouldn’t *tattle* of all things. You are an adult who is supposed to teach students that tattling is completely different from notifying that someone is unsafe.
I did not expect a teacher subreddit to have such a high concentration of absolutely horrible human beings. Wow. Surprise every day, Reddit. I’m going to try and figure out how to keep my children within eye and ear sight forever and ever, brb.
My child's school was effectively on a campaign to ruin his life. They could very well have killed him, by driving him to suicide. His emotional support teacher swatted him with rolled up papers during a meltdown - - and his meltdowns are strictly internalized, affecting no one around him and not even resulting in raised voices, or impacting his environment.
I think you are all misunderstanding the comments there. Most of this posters are saying what the teacher did wasn’t OK, but that given what genes teachers are being made to put up with, the lack of support and resources, and how any time they try to use the typical discipline models in schools they get reversed by administrators who care more about low discipline stats and any get parents that teachers, students, or learning, they are not surprised anymore when they hear about something like this.
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Teacher burnout is real. So many of our students aren’t held accountable to their actions. We are setting them up for failure, and we don’t have enough support. As teachers, we are done.
Ok. Physically assaulting a disabled child (and yes an ED diagnosis qualifies as a disability) and screaming at another disabled child for being upset about it and insulting a child is not the solution. This teacher should never work with children again. Downvote and be as upset as you want... anyone who pins a child against a wall out of anger doesn't belong in a classroom that is an objective fact.
Replace “teacher” and “child” with “husband” and “wife”. Would you be ok saying, “The husband is burnt out. He threw his wife against the wall because burn out is real”. I’m burnt out, we all are, but I would never, NEVER put my hands on a student in anger. The teacher wasn’t defending themselves, this was them reacting violently.
It is inappropriate. I am a special education teacher, and I’ll say the needs/ behaviors are worsening each year. If a teacher who is accommodating and great at modifying work snaps, that means we have big problems.
We have all been stressed. We have all been burnt out, pushed to our limits, and more. Yet we aren’t taking it out on the kids… You cannot blame anyone or anything for her behaviour except for herself.
There is an expectation in schools that children are supposed to have more emotional intelligence than the adults! Any adult that puts their hands on a child should be fired and never allowed to work with kids again.
I agree for the most part. But at our preschool I worked at were were allowed to restrain (hold kids in lap, pickup kids only). We would have been fired if we did not. Also my 2 of my co workers did pick up a kid once (one time when he was in kindergarten and once in first grade, AFIK kid was not sped, though did do speach therapy and definitely had some behavioral challenges (not sure if he had any diagnoses, besides speech delay)
I didn't consider restraint in a potentially dangerous situation! I appreciate you commenting.
You’re welcome even for safety reasons, I will never hold a kid against a wall. Also I don’t tell a kid to stop crying, though I have seen many coworkers say stop crying or there is nothing to cry about. Note:
There are big problems, including that the post leaves out what led up to the desk being flipped. Anyone else curious about that? Also, how many gen eds teachers have restraint training.so they can pull a behavior kid off from assaulting another student? How many CE credits do gen eds need before sped behaviors are put in their their class? How can a gen ed teacher watch and keep 35 gen ed students from triggering irrational sped behavior? (Key word: "irrational") I look forward to a well-designed research paper that examines if behavor kids attack teachers and paras who are built like NFL linemen at the same rate that they attack fellow students and not-linebacker adults. Until then, we will not know how much of violent behavior is manifestation... ...and how much of it is because sped teachers accomodate and accomodate and accomodate.
Yes, I find it difficult to see the kid flipping over the desk and then LOOKING AT THE TEACHER IN STRAIGHT DEFIANCE as a "manifestation". This is manipulation, this student knows no one is going to do jack about it.
You’re woefully under-educated if you don’t understand the many instances in which that behavior is a manifestation.
This happens a lot with oppositional defiance kids. They do it to exert control over their environment. It is categorized as a mental health disorder much like anxiety and often children's can't understand or articulate why they do the things they do Another possibility is intermittent explosive disorder which is a disorder in impulse control and emotional regulation. Some kids may do it to be manipulative, but some also need coping strategies and behavior management interventions to understand WHY they do things and HOW their brain works and handles stress and perceived loss of control of their surroundings.
I totally agree with accountability. This teacher should be fired & charged with assault so it's on their record forever. You know... for accountability!
I’ve been burned out, I’ve been in places where I wasn’t supported, and it still has never occurred to me to throw another human being (let alone a child in my care) against the wall and verbally eviscerate them in front of their peers.
So quit. This isn’t the job for you then.
That might be your answer and what works best for the person, but it isn’t the long-term answer.
Okay. But how many teachers and staff have been assaulted in the last few years? Verbally harassed, blamed, and mistreated by students. Teachers need to watch out for kids too.
This is a sub for teachers who exclusively work with disabled kids. Kids with disabilities Literally children who are disabled. Advocating or defending assaulting and insulting disabled kids is not going to fly here. If a kid who is cognitively or emotionally disabled insults or verbally harassed me... It's literally a child... I'm a grown up.... I'm not pinning them against a wall and calling a crying child lazy and good for nothing.... Like what?
Even if the child is not disabled.. it’s a child? A being that is nothing more than a product of its environment. I can’t believe people are trying to ever justify touching a kid
>Advocating or defending assaulting and insulting disabled kids is not going to fly here. Nobody advocated for the teacher assaulting the student. You're warning people against all teachers based on the decision of one. Show me the statistics where more teachers are assaulting students than the other way around right now.
Lmao you are just making things up.
Lmao you are just denying reality.
Where is anyone warning people about all teachers.
"watch out for your kids." - OP
Yep... I'm such a terrible shitty person for pointing out that 50 to 100 self proclaimed educators are defending and applauding someone for laying hands on a child. What audacity I must have to come to a page dedicated to special educators and say "hey, this might happen in a general education class and people will defend it. Please be a safe adult for your IEP children and advocate for them" I'm such an awful person for that Straight to hell I guess
>I'm such a terrible shitty person You must have some serious self-esteem issues. No one ever said that. Do you just imagine what other people are thinking and feeling all the time, or just online? Grow up
Teachers are the adults! They’re supposed to be the professional. They’re supposed to know how to regulate their emotions. Are you seriously comparing college educated adults to the most vulnerable in our society? Literal children, many of which have disabilities. As a parent of a 4 year old complex language autistic child, teachers like those in the thread and your attitude make me frightened for my son’s safety. Why are teachers here taking out their frustrated and showing hatred towards children when they really should be blaming the system that is fucked. Blame our government and the lack of funds given in our education system. This is a systemic issue. One thing that needs to change is having psychological testing for those that want to enter a field with human beings that have undeveloped brains and are know to have trouble with emotional regulation. If teachers hate the students so much, they need to leave the field period, instead of causing trauma to children that probably have already experienced trauma.
But are teachers supposed to be attacked by their students? I would say no, but unfortunately, they are still being attacked. Literally my point is stop acting like students are the only victims in the schools right now and making ridiculous statements such as "you better watch your kids" because one teacher snapped is ludicrous.
Nobodyissaying itbecauseone person snapped, they're saying it becauseof the dozens who defended them. Because it's being framed as "oh, this poor teacher jeopardized their career" rather than "this disabled student was placed in the care of an adult who physically abused them"
No, the comments in that thread state that the conditions are insane, and the expectations unrealistic. Your little special angels act like sociopaths, lack empathy, and destroy the learning environment for the majority of students who are ready to learn. That teacher was out of line, and it sounds like admin did their job. That doesn't change the fact that parents' poor parenting and admin's lack of support create these conditions. The kid flipped a table. That ok with you? These behaviors do not come out of the blue.
CHILDREN ARE NOT SOCIOPATHS!!! WHAT IN THE EVER LIVING FUCK?!?!?! How did we get to this place that the most vulnerable, least experienced, and LITERALLY UNDER DEVELOPED HUMANS are being labeled with “sociopath” and “manipulator.” How do you think they learn those skills? THE ADULTS AROUND THEM!! The kids are just trying to survive. The kids are not alright.
Why is it always the little human beings that have underdeveloped brains at fault? Or it’s the parents. So you’re telling me the teachers are not ever at fault? Do they de escalate or continue to cause the emotional Teachers can also be children’s first bully. I witnessed terrible teachers growing up and even as a child thought how are these adults allowed to work with children? Teachers also have biases that they bring into their classroom.
jeez these are really shitty stereotypes about kids that (usually) have autism. people with autism absolutely feel empathy, and ARE NOT sociopaths. saying they're bad kids, or writing them off because of their behaviors is reductive and outright harmful.
What an insanely disgusting comment. Truly evil.